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The No Police Spies campaign

No Police Spies | 22.02.2011 18:41 | Social Struggles | World

The No Police Spies campaign has been set up to call for an independent judge-led inquiry into the police infiltration of protest groups. We are seeking a wide-ranging inquiry, that will addres the many and serious issues that have emerged in recent weeks following the exposure of undercover police officers operting inside the UK protest movement.

The issue of out-of-control undercover policing has led to widespread media and public outrage. Yet, we feel that we only stand a chance of holding the police to account for this disgraceful practice if all the facts are laid bare and made public, and the police are forced to answer the many serious questions that have emerged. An independent public inquiry will go a long way to holding the police to account, and may even lead to changes which significantly reduce police powers.

The police do not want a public inquiry. They’ve tried to drown out talk of a proper inquiry by launching four investigations of their own, all of which are being conducted by bodies barely at arm’s length from those whose decisions are being investigated, and all hopelessly narrow in remit. They’ve also tried to diffuse the pressure with a couple of ill-thought through reforms, such as moving the unit responsible for spying on protesters to under the command of the anti-terror chief.

The police know that many of their actions are unjustifiable and in several cases could well be illegal. These actions include but are not limited to serious allegations such as suppressing evidence from the courts, sexual misconduct of serving officers and officers acting as agents provocateurs. Police-led inquiries will not adequately address these issues. Our bets chance of holding the police to account and forcing changes in law which may reduce their powers is to push for an independent inquiry. As the police run for cover, seeking to avoid scrutiny as they’ve been doing for years, our determination to press for answers only grows.

***************

No Police Spies came out of small group of individuals who felt this was a good course of action to pursue. However, No Police Spies doesn’t in any way wish to be seen as “the movement’s response” to the revelations that have emerged – it is simply one response among many. A whole range of responses are taking shape, and will take shape in the future. These may range from the practical to the legal to the political. The effects of undercover police officers, combined with the diversity of groups they infiltrated, mean that there was never going to be a single appropriate response.

No Police Spies is an autonomous campaign. It does not seek to speak for any group or individuals.

We are aware some groups may not want to have their name directly associated with the campaign for political or legal reasons. To this end we have now put a disclaimer on the website making clear the campaign is not affiliated to those groups who Mark Kennedy infiltrated. See here: www.nopolicespies.org.uk/disclaimer

****************

The campaign would very much benefit from wider participation, and needs a variety of skills to be effective. If you are keen to get involved, do contact us at  info@nopolicespies.org.uk

Even if the campaign isn’t really your sort of thing, but you feel there is something we should know, please speak to us. The broader the range of input, the better for all concerned.

Finally, we are aware that the issue of undercover police officers touches on some very sensitive issues, and the last thing anyone campaigning for an end to police spying wants to do is to add to the upset individuals are feeling. To this end, we have set up a specific highly confidential email address for individuals to raise concerns about how the campaign is communicating. We have already made language changes having heard such concerns with individuals, and would be swift to make more should concerns we haven’t yet identified be raised. Email  inconfidence@nopolicespies.org.uk

Check out and join:
www.nopolicespies.org.uk
www.facebook.com/nopolicespies
www.twitter.com/nopolicespies

No Police Spies
- e-mail: info@nopolicespies.org.uk
- Homepage: http://www.nopolicespies.org.uk

Comments

Hide the following 62 comments

Waste of time

22.02.2011 19:00

This seems to be a bit of a waste of time.

Even if No Police Spies achieves its objective of getting an inquiry it is going to be totally biased and will end up giving the police a clean bill of health. Simply because the police may not want a public inquiry does not mean that we should.

NL


liberal crap by

22.02.2011 19:23

massive waste of time, how many inquiries have there been into the Iraq war? The purpose of enquiries is to limit the loss of confidence in the status quo and draw a line under it. That's something even the softest of liberals get, but you guys are a fucking embarassment. Sure there can be a range of responses, (even in your lauching statement you seem to be on the defensive) but what is the point of yours? After all the police spies shouldn't have been targetting us, no we're the good protestors - it said so in the guardian. When you say we shouldn't see you as the movement's response you're damn right, I don't even see you as part of 'the movement' because its clear that your politics are utter shite.

crap liberals


yuk

22.02.2011 19:27

just looked at the website,makes my skin crawl not seen such painfully reformist liberal shit in ages

makes me sick


Paranoid witch hunts can do more harm than good

22.02.2011 19:59

Remember stalinist era, denouncing enemies of the revolution. When people did just go round denouncing each other and anyone else they didnt like.

A disruptive agent could abuse this all to easily. For example the green movement could easily be smashed by denouncing campaigners/activists of various political backgrounds.

A disruptive agent could ruin trust in open events, a simple game of "spot the copper" could offend staight looking supporters, many of whom you really need.

And Indymedia might be left facing massive libel lawsuits.

r


Well Said Crap liberal....

22.02.2011 20:09

This is exactly what indymedia is turning into, its truely fucking pathetic.......

Aunty Christ


Yeah I agree...

22.02.2011 20:12

People have had words with the main movers behind this campaign and expressed their strong political concerns/differences with this campaign, and they have changed/stopped saying some of the worst liberal stuff, so what is see now if actually lots better than it was.

I think there's a very interesting discussion to be had this year amongst the movement... there are lots of people, mainly that got involved through climate related activism, and lots of them have brought pretty liberal politics with them. Rather than becoming more radical, actually there is a critical mass of them in the scene now to be in quite a position of strength, and they (especially given their willingness to talk to the media and their easily Guardian friendly politics) are becoming quite dominant, bolstered by some very confident, media savvy and careerist long term liberal activists in the scene.

I think some of them have a massive mis-understanding of what constitutes radical politics too, and they mistake militant for the same as radical; as in they think that cos they have politics that supports criminal damage and a bit of scuffling with the cops, that makes them a radical, rather than a militant liberal.

IMO liberal doesn't mean someone that doesn't support rioting, but someone that doesn't see class as the basis for our politics, and sees people as purely individuals, equal to make choices or not in society. They often just see politics as a moral choice, i.e. those that recycle/don't fly etc are on our side, and those that don't are the enemy.

As someone once said, the thing about in-fighting is to decide who's in and who's out... bring on the discussions...

Lev Chernyi


Why No 'Police' Spies?

22.02.2011 20:47

Why not 'No Spies'?

This campaign will be welcomed by private sector spies because it could create a very lucrative market for them if it succeeds.

PS


This stinks!

22.02.2011 20:51

This stinks of the same self-appointed, politically clueless, liberal careerists who sought to promote themselves irrespective of the potential harm to genuine activists, and who assisted Kennedy in making money from his shameful story and presenting himself in a positive light. They are not part of the movement at all, they are parasites who deserve the same fate as the fucking cops - And I'm not talking about a public enquiry.

No Liberal Parasites Campaign


Don't harrass the white, middle-class liberals PLEASE!

22.02.2011 21:22

We don't want policing to get 'out of control' or (heaven forbid) 'political' or it could target the 'wrong' people, people who don't really want to change anything. You idiots really are an embarrassment - assuming this is not just a state op. 'In confidence'?! I wouldn't touch you with a cop-bought barge-pole.

A.C.A.B.


I support this...I think

22.02.2011 21:34

I don't know enough about this campaign to properly comment, but from what is posted here I support it. There is a range of tactics for dealing with police from direct confrontation to using their system against them. IPCC complaints are often not upheld but when done regularly can tie up police resources (and sometimes they are even upheld too!) and make it hard for cops to target you/your group. Suing the cops can hit them financially and offer funding for you and your causes. An public inquiry would bring out some useful information about police tactics, waste their time and probably make political spying harder for them in the short term. A win, win in my book.

ACAB


typical rhetorical crap acab

22.02.2011 22:19

>> Don't harrass the white, middle-class liberals PLEASE!
We don't want policing to get 'out of control' or (heaven forbid) 'political' or it could target the 'wrong' people, people who don't really want to change anything. You idiots really are an embarrassment - assuming this is not just a state op. 'In confidence'?! I wouldn't touch you with a cop-bought barge-pole.

Oh here we go again... the anti middle-class brigade going on about how amazing the working class is and how they are so much better than everyone else. Well, listen idiot - we can't all be working class can we? Some of us happen to be middle-class and if you've got a problem with that then thats your problem, not ours. To be honest, I wouldn't want to be touched by your barge pole where ever it came from. No go and get some more working class tattoos and fix a pipe and acabradabra with your little wand somewhere else

anon


A complete waste of time

22.02.2011 22:21

The whole basis of ‘No Police Spies’ is that it is wrong for them to spy on us. So although NPS is – obviously – not suggesting that everything else the police do is legitimate it could imply this to some people.

Come on Brad get back to climate campaigning. With the possibility of widespread anti-cuts protests in the next few months there is no way that the government is going to sacrifice its ability to monitor us under the guise of ‘domestic extremism’. And if the police are neutered then the function will be taken over by MI5 which could be a lot worse.

And as someone has rightly pointed out, if in the unlikely event that NPS succeeds it is simply going to open up the field for totally unaccountable private outfits such as Global Open and Rebecca Todd’s company to fill the gap which is, arguably, even less desirable.

Jax


Class, class, class...

22.02.2011 22:35

IMO it's not about working class vs the middle class FFS, and those people that harp on about middle/working class cliches are as mis-placed as those that ignore class as a basis for our politics completely.

Really the only classes of interest in the struggle are the ruling class of capitalists and politicians, and the rest of us - those that have to work to live.

Having said that, people need to accept that they have some privilege above others in the scene, and that's what we see here. The fact that some people are able to do these campaigns cos they have the career or the power within society that let them get the ear of The Guardian and similar liberals.

So, anarchists who have a crass definition of class, and those that ignore it completely are both two sides of the same coin IMO. Class in conjunction with anti-state anti-capitalism is the only basis for radical politics, please come to some useful understanding of it!

The autonomist understanding of it is useful as a starting point.

MG


@MG

22.02.2011 22:42

Is it possible for you to use small, less complex words rather than things like "autonomis" because many people reading this are working class and the dint do well at skool see.

i guess if being middle class makes me a wanker, then i'd best act like one.
An attack on middle class is an attack on me.

middle class anon


Who are these people?

22.02.2011 22:47

None of the people who Mark Kennedy really fucked over or the people who exposed him are involved with this. I have my suspicions and it sounds like the usual suspects trying to carve out a little career niche for themselves. They will be hawking their stupid campaign round Fleet Street and the House of Commons so why should indymedia publicise it? It is just a front for them to hide behind the next time one of them is on Newsnight.

anon


It's not an attack on being middle class..

22.02.2011 22:51

... but middle class LIBERALS, big difference!!

Jon


Attn anon middle class

22.02.2011 22:59

No mate, it's what you say that makes you a wanker, you and your (anon) sock puppet above. Please take your self-pity and your anti-working class prejudice somewhere else.

The world's smallest violin


THANK YOU JON!

22.02.2011 23:07

Unfortunately the distinction will undoubtedly be wasted on the self-appointed Champion of the Middle-Class!

Struggling!


You are all completely wrong!

22.02.2011 23:12

No Police Spies is a carefully thought-out campaign that will use the very damaging allegations that have made about the police to undermine any future justification for undercover police activity within activist groups.

You may not like the way that we are doing it but we have sought the advice of MPs and lawyers and this is our best bet so please stop the mindless criticism and let us get on with the job. At the same time we are seeking to undermine the HMIC investigation and to demonstrate that only a public judge-led inquiry is sufficient.

There is a lot more that cannot be said at this stage but it is in the long-term interests of the broader movement that it succceeds so please trust us on this one and stop mindless nit-picking!!!

No Police Spies supporter


Class

22.02.2011 23:16

Anyone who thinks that class is irrelevent to this is politically clueless. And it's about politics, not tattoos (hardly something distinct to the working-class these days), ferrets, flat caps, or Pimms n lemonade.

Tom


Well done No Police Spies supporter!

22.02.2011 23:55

What a brilliant piss-take! You've really covered all the cliches - "A carefully thought out campaign"! - Howl! - "we have sought the advice of MPs"! - Oh my aching sides! - "Please stop the mindless criticism and let us get on with the job"! - Classic! - "judge-led inquiry"! - Hoot! - "A lot more cannot be said"! - Oh aye! - "In the long-term interests of the broader movement"! - Helpmaboab! - And you really have saved the best till last: "Please trust us on this one and stop mindless nit picking"! Fantastic, you really do sound like the sort of totally clueless self--serving twat that people are 'nit-picking' about! Brilliant!

LOL!


No!

23.02.2011 00:19

No we will not just sit back and say nothing while you and your judge/lawyer/hack/cop mates fuck us over yet again. Genuine activists will pay a heavy price so you can advance your fucking media careers and many of us are not going to go quietly. If any of you ever dare show your faces away from the 'nice' cops and journos cameras you rhould expect what antifascists used to call a frank exchange of views. Believe it!

Activist


Entertaining comments

23.02.2011 00:47

Maybe this is liberal reformism, but it is kind of funny how many comments this attracts and the level of vitriol, while stories about corporations fucking over people and the planet pass by with the sound of tumbleweeds!

Some people really need to chill out and not get so up tight about things like this. Liberal reformism isn't my cup of tea either, but if people want to do it then good luck to them. I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist over it. There are more important things to get stressed over.

It does make for some entertaining reading though ;-) In a kind of sad way. ;-(

anon


"Campaigning for an end to political policing"

23.02.2011 01:06

Since when - ever - was policing anything other than that? Idiots!

A.C.A.B.


Why it makes me angry

23.02.2011 02:10

When these little goody 2 shoes say they should not have been spying on THEM they are sweet-grassing the rest of us - people the police may know well to keep an eye on - an if the cops start wriggling it'll be US get held up as examples of dangeros 'terrorists' and get thrown to the wolves. The fools behined this campaign never did NOTHING anyway and they don't mind burning those of us that did. They are TRAITORS pure an simple. They are bringing down heat on people an they dont care, media heat an cop heat.

@


call out and respect where due

23.02.2011 02:23

Looks like there is a fair few hard men and big boys on here. If I was a pencil pushing middle-classer office work, I'd watch out and keep my mouth shut in case I said something out of turn. Anyone with ACAB tattooed on their knuckles is well hard. Respect

anon


Oh look...

23.02.2011 03:35

...The Guardian of Middle Class Values is back. And still nothing intelligent to say.

Joe


No Police Spies IS an activist-led campaign!

23.02.2011 07:14

Those behind No Police Spies are genuine activists and most are from the Climate Camp and have been directly affected by Kennedy’s activities. It is fine for you lot to bleat about us being Guardian-reading liberals (and let’s not forget that the Guardian is firmly behind this campaign) but using the HMIC investigation to provide the grounds for a public judge-led inquiry is simply our best bet for stopping police infiltration of activist protests.

So you can get angry and scream and shout and even throw your toys out of your playpens but when your future actions are successful because they are not being compromised by the likes of Kennedy it will be us that you have to thank.

It is YOU, not us, who are doing the police’s dirty work, and No Police Spies deserves all the support it can get from the broader activist community.

No Police Spies supporter


You arrogant shits

23.02.2011 07:52

No Police Spies is an arrogant group of self-appointed shits who are doing the Establishment's dirty work for them.

The only impact that it could possibly have is to help give police infiltration some formal and legal standing because the problem is never going to go away.

Not a No Police Spies supporter


Jesus Christ...

23.02.2011 09:03

...you lot are so thick. If I was a senior copper in charge of this operation and I was about to get dragged over the coals for it, I would present the inquiry with all the intelligence and evidence gathered by Kennedy and Lynn, Europe-wide, and then I would nick as many people on that basis and prosecute them on the most serious charges I could muster.

Kennedy was gathering intelligence on more people than a bunch of soppy twats on fixed wheeled bikes in London, and some people could get royally fucked if the cops feel cornered. Do you think that senior pigs got to that position without being able to play politics?!

Rudeboy


To the No Police Spies Supporter...

23.02.2011 09:16

There a few things that you've said that make me squirm politically...

'Genuine activists'
I think is a point worth discussing, but I can't be bothered here. Think about what an activist is and does and whether they are the agents of social change or is it more than just them?

'The Guardian is behind it'
Of course they are! It fits totally with their lame liberal 'the state should be a little nicer' and target the really nasty ones. Which you are playing along with, whether you realise it or not.

'A public judge led inquiry is the best way of stopping police infiltration'
Errr.... no, the best way is to have some strong, broad based movement that wins! Which this campaign doesn't contribute to.

And accusing people who are criticise this campaign of doing the police's work is just fucking lazy and wrong.

And as for Rudeboy, 'soppy twats on fixed wheel bikes'... oh how I laughed! Nice one mate!

dave


'Genuine activists'?!

23.02.2011 09:19

It should now be abundantly clear that the people running this campaign are either too stupid or too self-obsessed to know what genuine activism even is. Their arrogance and vanity has led them to betray any radical ideals they might ever have held, along with their comrades. The supesficiality of their analysis though betrays a lack of any radical understanding. Several good friends of mine had to practically go into hiding because of a media shitstorm these people created, a shitstorm which only benefitted them and their friend Mark Kennedy. With their help the Guardian are still pushing the line that Kennedy came over to 'our side' and that he 'saved Iceland' single-handed. The best thing these arrogant media whores can do is fuck off back to where they came from.

Long-standing activist


To Anon

23.02.2011 09:20

Policing theft and robbery are political policing, capitalism enclosed our lives and now we have to steal them back! It doesn't mean that I support robbing people's personal stuff, but to think political policing is just about 'actions' and 'activism' is wrong.

Infact, I would argue all policing is political, as it's about maintaining the status quo, even when they do something 'worthwhile'.

You show up your shit politics with statements like that.

Another Anon


Fleet St spies

23.02.2011 09:45

Since we ban journalists from our gatherings, i hope that in future that will extend to the loud-mouthed media-whores running this campaign.

Anonymous


The arrogant middle-class

23.02.2011 09:52

And you wonder why we don't want you in the movement!

CW


You can align yourselves with the State

23.02.2011 09:57

Or you can align yourselves with US. You can't have it both ways.

nuff said


We need to use the mainstream media

23.02.2011 10:10

You just don't get it, do you?

We are only going to win this campaign if we have the media on our side. The reason why there are FOUR inquiries is not because you lot have been shouting but because of the pressure from the media. This is why as well as using its political contacts, 'No Police Spies' has a coherent strategy for using our friends in the media as well as working with independent production companies, who are interested in the story, and Undercurrents.

Your ostrich-like approach to the mainstream media is simply not sufficient. We’re not going to achieve our objective of a public judge-led inquiry without the help of newspapers such as the 'Guardian' and 'Observer' which have done so much to assist the campaign so far.

You must remember that the police definitely do not want a public inquiry and they have tried to drown out talk of a proper inquiry by launching investigations of their own, all of which are being conducted by bodies barely at arm's length from those whose decisions are being investigated, and all hopelessly narrow in remit.

Therefore, in order to assist us, it is vital that anyone who has information about the activities of these undercover police officers should contact us on our confidential and secure email address -  inconfidence@nopolicespies.org.uk.

No Police Spies supporter


Constructive debate

23.02.2011 10:13

This debate should be really useful but it's just descending into childish name calling.

I have huge problems with this campaign, it's analysis and potential effects. I don't believe it's possible to engage with the media on this subject without falling into the trap of either saying we're no threat so don't bother with us, or that we're dangerous terrorists and deserve what we get. I don't think there's any benefit to be doing any more media on this issue.

However, The media source that's been most disturbing to read throughout this whole debacle has been the comments section of Indymedia. Can people not make their points without padding it out with comments nonsense like:
"fuck off back to where they came from" and "soppy twats on fixed wheel bikes"
It's just vicious, un-constructive and distracting. It's making me think that this movement really isn't going to achieve anything...it deserves to just implode in on itself.

If the best we can do is either the no police spies campaign, or the opposing view which only expresses itself by vicious name calling and conspiracy theory crap.

...Doesn't anyone have anything sensible to say????????

Alienated


Good example of media assistance

23.02.2011 10:24

And here is a good example of the Guardian assisting us – an article by Brad Day last month about the police smear campaign in the wake of the Kennedy allegations.

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/cif-green/2011/jan/17/ratcliffe-police

No Police Spies supporter


To Brad and No Police Spies Supporter

23.02.2011 10:52

You both just really don't get it do you?

Pointing out that The Guardian and Observer are on our side... What do you mean by OUR side? You mean YOUR liberal side. Long term it's not about 'winning' this or any other campaign or rights. It's about building a radical movment to challenge the state and capitalism. Climate change is far from the most important thing or issue going on, stop thinking it is and it might help you have better politics.

We have no friends in the media for this. There are a few people who agree with some liberal reforms, but no more than that. I don't care about public enquires, nor judge led inquiries, the BEST they could offer is some whitewash with a few reforms, but at the expense of many other things that are much more important.

The Guardian article by Bradley is a perfect example of representing us a well meaning, peaceful, caring liberals, which is NOT what most of see ourselves as or want to be seen as. And IMO it is damaging in the long term, not least cos it then leaves those of us that aren't that out to dry when the state wants to smash us - do some reading on how the state destroys radical movement, engage and facilitate the softer elements (you) while marginalising and then smashing the radicals - which this campaign helps! You can see here how devisive it is already, and you were warned by numerous people.

Bradley and others, go and read some radical books, talk to those with proper politics, not liberal climate campaign ones. What you are doing is damaging our movement. Stop being so arrogant that all the people that disgaree with you are wrong and you are right.

And just as a point, those people involved in the Radcliffe justification trial can stop moaning about this campaign. I was in court and all you lot did was bleat on for weeks about how respectable and harmless you were. Moaning about this campaign doing exactly the same now seems slightly hypocritical!!

HG


HG

23.02.2011 11:28

"What do you mean by OUR side?"

I'm more interested in what you mean by it right now.

A bunch(?) of antagonsitic, insulting testosterone fueled commentators attacking stuff on a website?

Some kind of growing effective movement that is moving us to a better world?

Individuals who have no interest in making points and seek to alienate?

Or what?

Oh yes, and what do you think the appropriate response to dealing with police infiltration of protest groups is?

GH


Respect?

23.02.2011 11:58

It's such a shame to see the tone of the comments here, from both sides.

Some people are setting up a campaign, they're not claiming to represent anyone but themselves, and they're clearly doing it with good intentions. If you don't agree with their tactics or approach, then it's perfectly possible to post a critical but constructive comment that suggests alternative ways of doing things without resorting to offensiveness and personal abuse.

At the same time the "No Police Spies Supporter" isn't helping their cause very much with his/her rather self-righteous comments that seem to ignore the genuine criticisms directed at the campaign.

I'm always slightly perplexed by the Indymedia comments - when these kind of important debates happen in activist meetings they're usually carried out in a respectful and sensitive way, with everyone making a genuine effort to understand other people's points of view. On Indymedia, there's all this bile and abuse that I just don't recognise compared with real-life interactions within the activist community. Where is it all coming from?

As more people join a movement and it grows (which should be a good thing and make us more powerful if we do it properly), the politics become more complex and we have to work harder to identify our common ground and figure out how to work together while staying true to our aims. It's a difficult process but we're not going to move things forward by tearing chunks out of each other on these comment boards. Please, let's disagree with each other and debate this important stuff, but let's do it in a respectful way!

Observation


To GH

23.02.2011 12:06

OK, a quick reply, that'll probably be jumbled and not that great, but here goes... by OUR side I mean something that can be looked at two ways. Firstly, and least interestingly I think, it exists within the confines of 'activism' where I would say it's the radical tendency within the scene.

More importantly I would say OUR side is the global class of people that have the power to destroy capitalism, crassly called the working class, which in my defintion includes all those who are not in the ruling capitalist class, so yeah that includes students, doctors, all those kind of people that are traditionally seen as middle class. The rubbish definition that both lots of anarchists have as well as guilty middle class types is the same - some cliched flat cap wearing coal miner! It's about position to power within society, not cultural class. Do you own the means of production or do you have to work for those that do, very simply as someone once said!

I do think that middle class values are a real problem in our scene though. They have a cosier relationship with power (and the cops and media) and this campaign is a real example of this practically.

Just because some people on here come out with crap, angry, ill-thought out slag-offs (although where do you get testosterone fulled from I don't know, maybe examine your gender politics!) does not let the NPS campaign off the hook. People are fucking angry at this, and I think rightly so. Some of the anger comes from the radicals being in a position of weakness in our scene (as I think they have been or the last few years partly due to the politics that the climate campaign has encouraged within our movement) and thos angry comments are partly cos of that.

That and the fact that some people are actually at a personal and political risk, that the people behind thid campaign are not. Brad and the people with well paid activist friendly careers really need to be slightly more self aware about how that influences their choices and politics.

The approriate response to cop infiltation? Examine our politics and take radical and militant positions openly, make ourselves stronger by making real links (especially at the moment with all that's going on), think about serious issues that we tend to fudge (like class, internationalism and activism). Not mount liberal campaigns that will divide us and make us weaker.

HTH?

HG


the nature of the state

23.02.2011 12:06

p


The UK "activist" movement is a joke...

23.02.2011 12:10

All this time wasting outside Vodafone stores and "symbolically" closing banks for their tax-dodging is having absolutely no effect on their tax dodging or the cuts, and whilst I'm sure it makes people feel good...in reality it's achieving nothing and is probably being organised by "police spies" who want to diffuse the energy of the movement!

The only effective movement in the UK in the last few years has been the animal rights one, which at least has achieved something. Credit must also go to the local groups who have organised to stop local issues, but these ridiculous actions like blockading planes whilst continuing to fly, (and eat animal products, which are THE biggest polluter), simply have to stop!

Why not have a campaign against "police spies", it's no more ridiculous than closing down a Vodafone shop for a couple of hours whilst Osbourne clamps down on the welfare state. And all these ACAB comments and supposed "anarchists" all sound a bit Gateway 303 to me anyway.

Finally, feel free to take my IP and run with it...

A. Realist


Some more criticsm.

23.02.2011 12:11

Begging the State seems a ridiculous response. Putting Kennedy into the UK movement obviously wasn't ticking the boxes so they tried to turn him into an international activist. Broadening his 'usefulness'. Therefore, you could argue that they weren't getting much of a return from the 'radicals' he was rubbing shoulders with.

If the cops were looking to get something out of this i.e information that could lead to arrests most likely they would have gone in mob handed when the shit went down, to gather any evidence that may 'have been laying around' before it went the way of Mark Kennedy.

The reason why people get so angry about this sort of liberal response is that they know personally that the mainstream media is utter filth when it comes to backing radical campaigns. They are propped up by State and corporations.

Though The Guardian avoids or vilifies other radical campaigns, they seem content to jump into bed with the cosy liberal climate campaign, as this seems to be an effective form of campaigning form their point of view. And actually important, unlike most other things in the spectrum.

Still it won't be long before most of the people in this campaign, get married/have children and try to settle down somewhere nice like Hebden Bridge. Whilst the political establishment continues to oppress and brutalise.

The climate campaign has been severely damaged by steadily encroaching liberalism. As for making a few senior coppers squirm, i'm sure the PR department will give them some good coaching to avoid any serious problems. It really is utterly irrelevant. Perhaps, the next lot of infiltrators will not get sucked into the quirky life style choices of the few to try and fit in, but just do their own thing.

Yah


Nonsense

23.02.2011 13:10


"The only effective movement in the UK in the last few years has been the animal rights one, which at least has achieved something. Credit must also go to the local groups who have organised to stop local issues, but these ridiculous actions like blockading planes whilst continuing to fly, (and eat animal products, which are THE biggest polluter), simply have to stop!"

What does any of this have to do with a class based analysis and anti-capitalism? It is a liberal, moralisitic response. How can you compare AR to the struggles against capitalism? What has vegetarianism got to do with getting rid of capitalism. Likewise resusing to fly? Very little. This just betrays the insular, scene based nonsense of this entire thread.

...


Support this and smash the state

23.02.2011 13:41

I see this as a positive thing. Don't get me wrong I don't see it from the perspective of 'the police spies campaign' people but will this expose interesting information, waste some police time and make them back the fuck off in the short term - probably. Do I care if we are honest and ethical in are dealings with the state, police and media? No, couldn't give a shit. We say and do whatever it takes to put us in the optimum position to be free to take direct, effective action.

HG attacks the Radcliffe lot but court is simply play acting to get the optimum result for you – no holes barred except never implicate someone else.

A. Realist is right it's only results that count fuck political purism some people are acting like religious fundamentalists – whatever works. If you want to point to a tactic as correct don't give me ideological bullshit, show me meaningful results. None of this 'symbolic' crap (it has its place but not as a main tactic). If you are waiting around building a mass for a revolution without actually changing things now – how's that worked out for you over the last few decades?

Attack the state everywhere from within, from the streets, divide them and rule as they do to us, destroy their property and disrupt their minds, focus on any and all points of vulnerability and most importantly actually force real changes and victories. No victories, no point.

(A)


a call for more mutual respect

23.02.2011 15:06

> I'm always slightly perplexed by the Indymedia comments - when these kind
> of important debates happen in activist meetings they're usually carried out in
> a respectful and sensitive way, with everyone making a genuine effort to understand
> other people's points of view. On Indymedia, there's all this bile and abuse that I just
> don't recognise compared with real-life interactions within the activist community.
> Where is it all coming from?

Couldn't agree more. I have strong feelings about this issue myself but I can see that people on both sides of the debate have good intentions.

I guess what happens is that people have a lot of resentment about these kind of issues, built up from having come up against them time and again.

When discussing in person you can connect to the other person emotionally and are more likely to respect them even if you whole-heartedly disagree.

The problem with the internet is it breaks that human connection and it becomes all to easy to stereotype people, and let rip all that pent-up resentment without considering whether it's particularly helpful for the movement to express it in that way.

Don't get me wrong; the debate *needs* to happen. But not like this.

.


comment 50...

23.02.2011 15:31

49 comments already while all other discussions are relatively quiet and a rapid descent in vitriol. I have to wonder just how many of those posting on this thread are not coming from behind a certain proxy service of the governments... This is not to question everyone posting here, but me'thinks that a trap has been fallen into, one that is increasingly obvious on indymedia 'debates'. Just a friendly heads up..

unnecessary


Comment 51

23.02.2011 16:23

To follow on from comment 50 a similarly long list of comments and divisive bitching follows recent posts about Undercurrents and police spies, and a chance meeting with Mark Kennedy further down the newswire. Regardless of who is posting half of these comments, I'm not sure that doing our dirty washing in public is particularly sensible given that the IMC newswire seems to have been the source of most of the more speculative detail in recent mainstream media articles about police spies etc.

;-)


Justifiable anger

23.02.2011 17:51

So now those posting against this bollocks are cops?! You people really are the scum of the earth and I make no apologies for saying so. People are justifiably angry because you are putting them and/or their friends at risk. You have been told that privately and also here on IM and you haven't given a fuck, you've just continued to arrogantly do what you like. That isn't freedom. Why is stupid state-friendly reformist crap even on Indymedia? For me, as others have said, you are traitors putting activists at risk for personal gain. You deserve to be treated accordingly.

My 1st post


confusion here

23.02.2011 18:40

>> So now those posting against this bollocks are cops?! You people really are the scum of the earth and I make no apologies for saying so. People are justifiably angry because you are putting them and/or their friends at risk. You have been told that privately and also here on IM and you haven't given a fuck, you've just continued to arrogantly do what you like. That isn't freedom.

lol! what a monkey

>> Why is stupid state-friendly reformist crap even on Indymedia? For me, as others have said, you are traitors putting activists at risk for personal gain. You deserve to be treated accordingly.

Maybe you are on the wrong site baby? This is indymedia not some shrivelled ex-con website.

rouserbouser


Traitors to what?

23.02.2011 19:11

After being anonymously denounced as

"self-appointed, politically clueless, liberal careerists" "parasites who deserve the same fate as the fucking cops" "idiots" "the usual suspects trying to carve out a little career niche for themselves" "a wanker" "the sort of totally clueless self--serving twat that people are 'nit-picking' about" "The fools behined this campaign (who) never did NOTHING anyway and don't mind burning those of us that did" " an arrogant group of self-appointed shits who are doing the Establishment's dirty work for them" "a bunch of soppy twats on fixed wheeled bikes in London" "either too stupid or too self-obsessed to know what genuine activism even is" "arrogant media whores"

and warned that:

" If any of you ever dare show your faces away from the 'nice' cops and journos cameras you rhould expect what antifascists used to call a frank exchange of views. Believe it!"

you people seriously expect loyalty?

And the radical political explanation for it all?

"Several good friends of mine had to practically go into hiding because of a media shitstorm these people created, a shitstorm which only benefitted them and their friend Mark Kennedy." and " if the cops start wriggling it'll be US get held up as examples of dangeros 'terrorists' and get thrown to the wolves"


All all the above seems to be premised on the idea that if there is a public inquiry the cops will use information, *that they already have*, to get themselves off the hook.

If the cops have info they will use when they want, and the backlash on this thread isn't rational or acceptable.

If there is a point to be made, it needs to made in a somewhat less unpleasant and irrational manner. Its no wonder that there are people who suspect that there is trolling going on.

Try putting forward some persuasive arguments rather than throwing threats and insults about and people might be able to make sense of what is being said.

GH


"The issue of out-of-control undercover policing"

23.02.2011 19:20

what, as against controlled undercover policing?

"The police know that many of their actions are unjustifiable and in several cases could well be illegal"

So some actions are justifiable and ok?

You arseholes, fuck off back to your other reality....

Anarchist


"working with independent production companies"

23.02.2011 19:24

With Mark Kennedy no doubt. Who do you think you are Brad n co, your brief moment of second-hand notoriety has really gone to your very small brains. Do you think anybody in the movement has any respect for you whatsoever?

My 1st post


stop and think

23.02.2011 20:49

I agree that this no police spies stuff is a load of liberal, reformist toss - something I've said before to people connected to those behind it. There is a legitimate argument between anarchists and liberal reformism, and I'm for the former any day of the week, but that does not mean we should be insensible of those who seek to use these divisions for their own ends - there is at least one post on this thread done in the name of someone would be mortified by the opinions expressed here. It seems quite deliberate to me.

unnecessary


Duh..

23.02.2011 21:13

...

"All all the above seems to be premised on the idea that if there is a public inquiry the cops will use information, *that they already have*, to get themselves off the hook."

EXACTLY they without a doubt have enough intelligence to reasonably justify the operation to a judge, which means you lot will look like a right bunch of c***s. Just because YOU didn't do anything it doesn't mean they don't have anything worthwhile.

Rudeboy


To GH and everyone else...

23.02.2011 21:19

I agree that there have been some stupid (but understandably angry) comments on here from people that are critical, but you have ignored the decent points raised by some who are critical of the NPS campaign, so would be interested to hear your views on them rather than just painting all criticism as ill-thought out slag-offs.

I think this thread has run it's course to be honest and is degenerating into petty name callling. I've said all I have to say above. I hope this can continue as a face to face discussion somewhere more usefully soon.

HG


problem with this campaign

24.02.2011 17:46

The central problem with this campaign is right there in the subtitle:
"Campaigning for an end to political policing"
...the idea that there is such a thing as non-political policing. All policing is political.

We may get a few short-term gains; the police may back off slightly. But we will lose in the long-term by promoting the myth that policing is a public service when it actually exists primarily for social control.

We will never get any fundamental change without massive social uprisings, and those uprisings will never happen until people realise that the police are there to control us and block social change. Check out Greece or Egypt. Both are societies where people can clearly recognise the inherently political role of the police, which is a first step to fighting back.

So this campaign sets us back by making that awareness-raising task harder.

Combine that with a few media egos, and you can see why people are angry.

-


Secure email needs to use PGP

24.02.2011 21:16

just a comment on "...contact us on our confidential and secure email address -  inconfidence@nopolicespies.org.uk. "

Email is never secure and confidential - it travels in plain text through too many places for that. A government can fairly easily tap anyone's email. You really need to publish a PGP key so people can send you encrypted emails. It will still be clear who the message is from, but at least they won't be able to read it.

Assuming the people reading it at the other end aren't infiltrated, of course!

anon


The Final Nail in my coffin

27.02.2011 11:18

After weeks of reading endless abusive comments on indymedia, i am hanging up my coat on activism.
I thought that by getting out on the streets and blocking cars/ diggers/ corporates I would be helping to build a new world.But over the last 10 years I have seen many fellow active people give up, blaming it on the culture of the angry brigade. To many of us, some activist groups can now be classed as fundamentalists which is not appealing.

The No Police Spies campaign may not be the best thing to do but I haven't heard any other real proposals within this 'discussion', apart from telling the liberals to fuck off with their Guardians under their arms.


I am out of here


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