Live Science published a UCLA study of the brain
scans of obese people and found that they have an average
8% less brain mass. Why is this?
A listing of toxins in meat, fish and dairy which harm brain function
scans of obese people and found that they have an average
8% less brain mass. Why is this?
A listing of toxins in meat, fish and dairy which harm brain function
Obese people who are not vegetarian or vegan have a higher
accumulation of toxins.
The brain degeneration of obese people comes from
a. animal fat (cholesterol) clogging brain arteries
.. a man cause of strokes
b. mercury and other heavy metals concentrated in meat, fish and toxic vaccines
They are neurotoxins destroying memory.
c. amyloid plaque... a byproduct of animal and fish protein metabolism which lines the cerebral arteries preventing
blood flow and all the other arteries.. it is found in Alzheimer's sufferers
d. not enough vitamin C: the ascorbic acid which when not destroyed
by cooking is a toxin bouncer
Vitamin C speeds up the flow of signals across nerve synapses in brain and elsewhere.. is in all uncooked fruit.. is in no meat or dairy
e. the diversion of blood from the brain to the stomach
when digesting animal flesh (a lion lies down for
3 days in the savannah after a kill)
f. In addition tryptophan, correlated to animal
protein, causes drowsiness
g. Adrenalin, a terror hormone secreted in massive
amounts by animals, birds and fishes during
slaughter, is a protein enzyme whose links
are only partially destroyed by cooking. Eating
animal flesh includes eating the chemical residue
of the animals' terror and anger. Adrenalin
prevents long term concentration.
h Animal flesh causes obesity
The cited study states that the obese have 8%
less brain tissue. Nonvegetarians weigh an average
11 pounds more than dairy vegetarians and 23
pounds more than vegans,
The more one eats, the more clogging of the brain
arteries occurs.
i Prions: the work of Nobel laureate Dr Stanley Prusiner was put on a back burner at Harvard, which is invested in the meat industry. He continued his prion research at Stanford. Prions are a cause of Mad Cow or bovine spongiform encephalopathy, cervine spongiform encephalopathy (Mad Deer) etc. In The US the CDC,
FDA etc have conducted a conspiracy to muzzle
incidence of Mad Cow, Mad Pig etc. These
are criminally diagnosed as brain tumor, encephalitis, meningitis etc.
http://www.madcowboy.com
j. Monosodium glutamate MSG is not intrinsic to meat but is put into the muscle flesh of meat to tenderize it. It also breaks down the brain, muscle and nerve tissue of humans eating the MSG meat.. it is called the Chinese restaurant headache cause. The meat industry pawn agency FDA
allows MSG to be hidden in foods under the label
'natural flavors'. There is nothing natural about MSG.
www.msgtruth.org
k.
red blood cells
Vegans and fruitarians have more red blood cells per cubic centimeter. Their blood is more purple. More red blood cells means more flow of oxygenated blood to the brain.
Quote:
http://www.livescience.com/health/09...ese-brain.html
Obese People Have 'Severe Brain Degeneration'
livescience.com – Tue Aug 25, 10:35 am ET
A new study finds obese people have 8 percent less brain tissue than normal-weight individuals. Their brains look 16 years older than the brains of lean individuals, researchers said today.
Those classified as overweight have 4 percent less brain tissue and their brains appear to have aged prematurely by 8 years.
The results, based on brain scans of 94 people in their 70s, represent "severe brain degeneration," said Paul Thompson, senior author of the study and a UCLA professor of neurology.
"That's a big loss of tissue and it depletes your cognitive reserves, putting you at much greater risk of Alzheimer's and other diseases that attack the brain," said Thompson. "But you can greatly reduce your risk for Alzheimer's, if you can eat healthily and keep your weight under control."
The findings are detailed in the online edition of the journal Human Brain Mapping.
Obesity packs many negative health effects, including increased risk of heart disease, Type 2 diabetes, hypertension and some cancers. It's also been shown to reduce sexual activity.
More than 300 million worldwide are now classified as obese, according to the World Health Organization. Another billion are overweight. The main cause, experts say: bad diet, including an increased reliance on highly processed foods.
Obese people had lost brain tissue in the frontal and temporal lobes, areas of the brain critical for planning and memory, and in the anterior cingulate gyrus (attention and executive functions), hippocampus (long-term memory) and basal ganglia (movement), the researchers said in a statement today. Overweight people showed brain loss in the basal ganglia, the corona radiata, white matter comprised of axons, and the parietal lobe (sensory lobe).
"The brains of obese people looked 16 years older than the brains of those who were lean, and in overweight people looked 8 years older," Thompson said.
Obesity is measured by body mass index (BMI), defined as the weight in kilograms divided by the square of the height in meters. A BMI over 25 is defined as overweight, and a BMI of over 30 as obese.
THE BRAIN
http://www.pcrm.org 7000 members nearly 1000 of whom are vegan MD's
http://www.vegsource.com/klaper Michael Klaper MD
http://www.vegansociety.org Stephen Walsh MD
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org
http://www.notmilk.com
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?t=175623 toxins in fish flesh
http://spot.acorn.net/fruitarian
Leonardo da Vinci: One day the world
will look upon the eating of animals as it now looks upon the eating of human beings.
(It is an analysis of his Notebooks by
authors such as Dudley Giehl which indicates that DaVinci referred only to the eating of fruits and pastas (the latter is a fruit under the definition that it is the product of a plant.
Albert Einstein: (paraphrased) The most important evolutionary step humanity can take is to evolve toward vegetarianism. Dr. Einstein said in his autobiography that angels gave him the theory of relativity.
Isaac Newton wrote that he was an aspiring vegetarian.
Representative Dan Burton has held hearings about the danger of thethe hepatitis vaccine. Its mercury is related to autism and to the causation of multiple sclerosis.
While all are temples of the indwelling God
and while all can access God's omniscience (for it is the
size of the opening to the Light within which determines
consciousness) those with the highest number of Phd's
both per capita and in numbers are the Asian Indians*
who have been more vegetarian than any other group.
We all have the same Indweller God inside, but some have a greater opening to the God within.
Sai Baba, believed to be an Avatar or God Incarnation by over 100 million people
http://www.sathyasai.org http://www.eaisai.com/baba
Dick Gregory author
of Cooking With Mother Nature for Folks Who Eat who convinced the poster
to aspire to fruitarian diet.. who has run across America
to focus on justice issues
Ananda Mayee Ma, self realized master, was a fruitarian who waited
until the fruit dropped from the tree. That is easier for
those who live where many fruit trees grow.
HEALING
As cholesterol and plaque slowly build up in the brain, they can slowly be eliminated through chelation
therapy or fruitarian or vegan diet. Fruit juice fasts can eliminate these
toxins more quickly.
FRUITARIAN BOOKS
a chapter on fruitarianism in The Holy
Science by Sri Yukteswar
Dick Gregory's Cookin with Mother
Nature for Folks Who Eat
Morris Krok's writings
accumulation of toxins.
The brain degeneration of obese people comes from
a. animal fat (cholesterol) clogging brain arteries
.. a man cause of strokes
b. mercury and other heavy metals concentrated in meat, fish and toxic vaccines
They are neurotoxins destroying memory.
c. amyloid plaque... a byproduct of animal and fish protein metabolism which lines the cerebral arteries preventing
blood flow and all the other arteries.. it is found in Alzheimer's sufferers
d. not enough vitamin C: the ascorbic acid which when not destroyed
by cooking is a toxin bouncer
Vitamin C speeds up the flow of signals across nerve synapses in brain and elsewhere.. is in all uncooked fruit.. is in no meat or dairy
e. the diversion of blood from the brain to the stomach
when digesting animal flesh (a lion lies down for
3 days in the savannah after a kill)
f. In addition tryptophan, correlated to animal
protein, causes drowsiness
g. Adrenalin, a terror hormone secreted in massive
amounts by animals, birds and fishes during
slaughter, is a protein enzyme whose links
are only partially destroyed by cooking. Eating
animal flesh includes eating the chemical residue
of the animals' terror and anger. Adrenalin
prevents long term concentration.
h Animal flesh causes obesity
The cited study states that the obese have 8%
less brain tissue. Nonvegetarians weigh an average
11 pounds more than dairy vegetarians and 23
pounds more than vegans,
The more one eats, the more clogging of the brain
arteries occurs.
i Prions: the work of Nobel laureate Dr Stanley Prusiner was put on a back burner at Harvard, which is invested in the meat industry. He continued his prion research at Stanford. Prions are a cause of Mad Cow or bovine spongiform encephalopathy, cervine spongiform encephalopathy (Mad Deer) etc. In The US the CDC,
FDA etc have conducted a conspiracy to muzzle
incidence of Mad Cow, Mad Pig etc. These
are criminally diagnosed as brain tumor, encephalitis, meningitis etc.
http://www.madcowboy.com j. Monosodium glutamate MSG is not intrinsic to meat but is put into the muscle flesh of meat to tenderize it. It also breaks down the brain, muscle and nerve tissue of humans eating the MSG meat.. it is called the Chinese restaurant headache cause. The meat industry pawn agency FDA
allows MSG to be hidden in foods under the label
'natural flavors'. There is nothing natural about MSG.
www.msgtruth.org
k.
red blood cells
Vegans and fruitarians have more red blood cells per cubic centimeter. Their blood is more purple. More red blood cells means more flow of oxygenated blood to the brain.
Quote:
http://www.livescience.com/health/09...ese-brain.html Obese People Have 'Severe Brain Degeneration'
livescience.com – Tue Aug 25, 10:35 am ET
A new study finds obese people have 8 percent less brain tissue than normal-weight individuals. Their brains look 16 years older than the brains of lean individuals, researchers said today.
Those classified as overweight have 4 percent less brain tissue and their brains appear to have aged prematurely by 8 years.
The results, based on brain scans of 94 people in their 70s, represent "severe brain degeneration," said Paul Thompson, senior author of the study and a UCLA professor of neurology.
"That's a big loss of tissue and it depletes your cognitive reserves, putting you at much greater risk of Alzheimer's and other diseases that attack the brain," said Thompson. "But you can greatly reduce your risk for Alzheimer's, if you can eat healthily and keep your weight under control."
The findings are detailed in the online edition of the journal Human Brain Mapping.
Obesity packs many negative health effects, including increased risk of heart disease, Type 2 diabetes, hypertension and some cancers. It's also been shown to reduce sexual activity.
More than 300 million worldwide are now classified as obese, according to the World Health Organization. Another billion are overweight. The main cause, experts say: bad diet, including an increased reliance on highly processed foods.
Obese people had lost brain tissue in the frontal and temporal lobes, areas of the brain critical for planning and memory, and in the anterior cingulate gyrus (attention and executive functions), hippocampus (long-term memory) and basal ganglia (movement), the researchers said in a statement today. Overweight people showed brain loss in the basal ganglia, the corona radiata, white matter comprised of axons, and the parietal lobe (sensory lobe).
"The brains of obese people looked 16 years older than the brains of those who were lean, and in overweight people looked 8 years older," Thompson said.
Obesity is measured by body mass index (BMI), defined as the weight in kilograms divided by the square of the height in meters. A BMI over 25 is defined as overweight, and a BMI of over 30 as obese.
THE BRAIN
http://www.pcrm.org 7000 members nearly 1000 of whom are vegan MD's http://www.vegsource.com/klaper Michael Klaper MD http://www.vegansociety.org Stephen Walsh MD http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org http://www.notmilk.com http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?t=175623 toxins in fish flesh http://spot.acorn.net/fruitarian Leonardo da Vinci: One day the world
will look upon the eating of animals as it now looks upon the eating of human beings.
(It is an analysis of his Notebooks by
authors such as Dudley Giehl which indicates that DaVinci referred only to the eating of fruits and pastas (the latter is a fruit under the definition that it is the product of a plant.
Albert Einstein: (paraphrased) The most important evolutionary step humanity can take is to evolve toward vegetarianism. Dr. Einstein said in his autobiography that angels gave him the theory of relativity.
Isaac Newton wrote that he was an aspiring vegetarian.
Representative Dan Burton has held hearings about the danger of thethe hepatitis vaccine. Its mercury is related to autism and to the causation of multiple sclerosis.
While all are temples of the indwelling God
and while all can access God's omniscience (for it is the
size of the opening to the Light within which determines
consciousness) those with the highest number of Phd's
both per capita and in numbers are the Asian Indians*
who have been more vegetarian than any other group.
We all have the same Indweller God inside, but some have a greater opening to the God within.
Sai Baba, believed to be an Avatar or God Incarnation by over 100 million people
http://www.sathyasai.org http://www.eaisai.com/baba Dick Gregory author
of Cooking With Mother Nature for Folks Who Eat who convinced the poster
to aspire to fruitarian diet.. who has run across America
to focus on justice issues
Ananda Mayee Ma, self realized master, was a fruitarian who waited
until the fruit dropped from the tree. That is easier for
those who live where many fruit trees grow.
HEALING
As cholesterol and plaque slowly build up in the brain, they can slowly be eliminated through chelation
therapy or fruitarian or vegan diet. Fruit juice fasts can eliminate these
toxins more quickly.
FRUITARIAN BOOKS
a chapter on fruitarianism in The Holy
Science by Sri Yukteswar
Dick Gregory's Cookin with Mother
Nature for Folks Who Eat
Morris Krok's writings
Homepage:
Comments
Hide the following 22 comments
Fuck Off You Sanctimonious Bastard
28.08.2009 21:17
Meat Means Dinner
You mean dinner
29.08.2009 04:47
@
Bob Slob.
29.08.2009 10:01
Lets see, could it be the case that obesity is caused by the consumption of industrially processed foodstuffs?
We all (well some of us) thrive on a diet of industrially processed food these days. If we add up all the food we eat in a year a substantial percentage contains artificial bulk material which has no nutrition content at all. Our bodies don't process this in any meaningful way. It goes in and comes out and precious little happens in-between.
Those who are obese are suffering from chronic under-nutrition. They eat material which does nothing for their bodies. Their bodies then crave more because they are persistently under nourished. They eat more 'bulk' which they store in the form of fat and before they know it they are trapped in a vicious cycle they cannot escape from. If it goes on for any length of time they then find themselves unable to participate in everyday life and become physically 'dormant'. As a result they develop physical symptoms and in severe cases, progressive organ failure.
Its an odd thing to say I know but obese people are, despite their size, slowly starving.
The biggest thing you can do to stay healthy in this modern world is to eat well. A balanced diet containing all the known nutrition sources in moderation and small quantities persistently over time.
Raw vegetables, fish and meat in small quantities and preferably natural sweeteners in very small quantities. The fresher the food the better. Your body will be getting all the nutrition content it needs and, as a result, your metablolism (the thing that regulates your food intake through the feeling of hunger) is kept in check.
If you are hungry all the time, you have a nutrition poor diet.
If your are severely overweight, your are one of the 'modern worlds' suckers.
Errrr
Meat is murder - of humans
29.08.2009 13:23
The meat industry also threatens everyones health through the secondary risks of incubated, accelerated diseases like Swine Flu (Smithfield) and Avian flu (Bernard Matthews). If smokers legally have to sit outside a public room to avoid the unproven risk of secondary smoking, why should carnivores be allowed to openly risk everyones lives by their tortuous corporate factory farming practices?
Danny
oh for....
29.08.2009 22:22
The human is predominantly a Omnivore, that being that it can process several types of food.
Our bodies are built and designed for it, binocular vision, canine teeth, apendix, vicious digestive system and focused hearing.
A herbivore (vegitarian) eats only plants, wide angle vision, indipandant hearing and Incisors/molars combo.
Sorry chum you were born into the wrong species, deal with it.
Remember, that fish had a family, friends, hopes and dreams and you murdered it.
anon
Danny
30.08.2009 01:10
Yours (and any other) free and happy life can be justifiably ended if you're stupid and greedy enough to go for my bright an alluring bait. You're signing a lot of death warrants here.
You also meant 'they' were stupid enough, not 'it'. The fish was an individual, not an object. Interesting how you use lack of intelligence to justify murder though, does the same theory go for children and mentally disabled people then? Only if they're stupid enough right?
Human Hunter
Mmmm...murder
30.08.2009 12:04
I have no problem with genuine hunter-gatherers eating meat. Canadian tribes who eat whale is fine by me, but it when they commercialise culls to raise money that is where things go awry.
The real state of British agriculture, the way most animals are mistreated, is what I am truly disgusted by, it was only when I first moved to the country that it hit home. In my opinion, there are is an analogue sliding scale of abuse rather than a digital 'Vegan or Non-Vegan' choice. I think people who eat regularly at MacDonalds should be encouraged to eat less of that crap rather than simply label them as evil. Meat eaters should be encouraged to eat organic meat rather than factory farmed meat. Vegetarians should be helped to become vegans. People who don't give a flying fuck about animal welfare should be informed about the risks to their own health. Everyone will draw their own moral line and there is little point railing against someone who is heading in the right direction, you need to educate the people who don't agree with that direction.
More than that, I think it is most important to primarily target factory-farming and in some ways it is beneficial to that cause by having as broad a consensus as possible, including meat-eaters. A world without factory farming would remain far from perfect for animals but it is the first objective imo because it is the most concentrated form of suffering on the planet and it is the easiest to argue against because of the direct health risks to large swathes of humanity. So yeah, I murdered a trout the other day but I did it myself, it wasn't paid for and I am likely to do it again over winter. I think it is great there really are fruitarians out there who manage to survive over winter, but the only way I could do that is by shoplifting - and the 'vegetarian' menus in prison are often fish.
By the way, I do have more respect for the fish than the language I used indicates, that was simply to avoid the charge of being sanctimonious that is often levelled at anyone arguing against the agro-industry. It's not only vegans and AR folk who are against the worst treatment of animals and you shouldn't allow yourself to be ghettoised from people who support your aims but don't have your tenacity. You do have my respect, I'm not asking for yours.
Danny
Comments
30.08.2009 16:15
This is the equivalent of saying burning down a old people's home is acceptable, if it were to benefit yourself, because they have all lived too long anyway.
The problem here is not that you ate fish, as its understandable that if you are starving then you would quite rightly eat anything to stay alive, but the blatant advocating of speciesism:
"...there was nothing to eat in the fields except for rabbits, squirrels, pigeons, pheasants, deer, cows and sheep. None of which were harmed thanks to the sacrifice of the fish"
Why is it you think one species life is more important than another? It's really not.
"Meat eaters should be encouraged to eat organic meat rather than factory farmed meat."
This is so oxymoronic if you turn the tables. Say somebody ate humans, would it suddenly be ok if that person raised the humans organic and free range before eating them? Or is the crime that they ate somebody else, rather than that their death wasn't "humane"? Think if you were that human, would you beg for an organic/free range life, or for freedom? It's obvious.
Another look at genoicde aids this understanding. Do you think holocaust victims wanted a free range life before being killed, or to be free from the holocaust? The answer is obvious. Victims want liberation, not welfare. Welfare doesn't save lives, it only justifies their end.
This all comes down to the same debate, welfare vs. abolition. For me history shows that welfare only reinforces the ability to oppress others, abolition changes social conditions.
"and the 'vegetarian' menus in prison are often fish."
Try a vegan one then you will have a veggie prison menu. See
"It's not only vegans and AR folk who are against the worst treatment of animals and you shouldn't allow yourself to be ghettoised from people who support your aims but don't have your tenacity."
Don't presume that because you are against the 'worst treatment' of animals you support my aims. My aims are to end all oppression through abolition of social conditions, not for welfarism (as an 'acceptable' form of speciesism) to be the direction for our fellow species. Animal liberation won't be bought about by speciesism as much as human liberation hasn't been bought about by racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, and so on.
Why? Because the worst treatment of animals is the fact they are treated differently. Yes corporate genocide is bad, but only as bad as the conditions that allow it: discrimination.
veg@n
The 'norms' of society...
30.08.2009 20:25
It is currently considered 'normal' to eat processed, mass produced, genetically modified foodstuffs, with only minimal nutritional worth. It is also currently 'normal' in our society to exploit other species for our own perceived short term benefit and personal profit. Genetic modification of lifeforms is just the current form of this exploitation, along with factory farming methods and the forcing of both captive, Human modified flora and fauna to 'mature' more rapidly in the name of profit, rapid industrial turnover and so-called convenience.
This era too will come to an end, as eventually more people will come to the realisation that this lifestyle and world view not only damages the species we exploit to these ends, but also ultimately damages us too, through the polluting byproducts of these processes, as well as the health risks presented by consuming foodstuffs created by these processes of industrially intensive resource/life exploitation.
The time for all this will come to pass out of necessity, and that time of radical lifestyle reassment is upon us now in this century, in our lifetimes.
Our Great Grandchildren will not be able to carry on as we are now, because of the biological damage we have done both to ourselves and to the ecosystem. In fact, it is not us who will have to live with these consequences, but them.
As the Native Americans (who Europeans formerly called 'Indians') like to say, we borrow the Earth from our Children.
The question is how much debt are we leaving for our Grand Children to pay back?
A. Observer
A Former Vegan realises the error of their ways
01.09.2009 09:11
The fact is the Asian Indians were the Highest Caste. They are also the recipients of some of the largest amounts of inward educational investment in history. The problem is not "animal abuse by eating them" it is sanctimonious, hypocritical lifestylers who can afford to pursue a "dream" that will still require 2.5 Earths in order to sustain the present population.
The fact is Veganism is tokenism at the deep ecological level. The planet is being destroyed in far more ways that a little bit of farming reform will impact. And Veganism is little more than farm reform because it fails to address the fundamentals of survival. Those fundamentals include the facts of Evolution.
I eat meat now and again and I enjoy it. It is a cheaper diet for me - and poverty does make a compelling argument. There are ways in which planetary impact can be minimised. Reducing meat eating is one of them. Reducing meat while continuing to sustain the consumer society (even while making the token of nonparticipation) is only one of them.
Vegans would be much better served by realising: ecology means all things are connected and that means concentrating on one thing (eg food) to the exclusion of others is utterly vacuous.
reformed Hypocrite
Gradualism
01.09.2009 10:50
Realistically though, people who eat cheap meat today won't be persuaded to suddenly beome vegan by condemnation, they are more likely to progress one step at a time through encouragement. While you are aiming for a meat-free world it seems sensible to reduce the overall level of suffering by encouraging a more ethical treatment of animals bred for meat, to get people who currently view vegans as freaks to realise it is something to aim for in their own lives.
Danny
maybe...
01.09.2009 11:24
Maybe the reason obese people have less brain cells is cus they are stupid people, an intelligent person wouldnt let him/herself get fat like that. cus lets be honest, you wud have to be fuckin thick to get obese without thinking about dieting (or drowning your glutenous self).
Anti Fatist Action
Comments
01.09.2009 18:03
"a "dream" that will still require 2.5 Earths in order to sustain the present population."
Please tell me you are joking? You think a global vegan diet takes 2.5 Earth sized planets to be sustainable? You've got it the wrong way round! If economic factors were taken out the equation (ie food was distributed/produced equally) then all human beings could be fed on a vegan diet, quite a few times over infact. We would need many more Earths for a meat diet.
How on Earth does feeding food to an individual who then uses/wastes that energy, then consuming then mean there will be more energy? Its defies basic and rational logic!
As for the title "A Former Vegan realises the error of their ways"
I could call myself "A Former Meat-Eater/Murderer realises the error of their ways"
But I don't feel the need to be self-righteousness about it like you do.
"And Veganism is little more than farm reform because it fails to address the fundamentals of survival. Those fundamentals include the facts of Evolution."
To abolition animal industries is reform? Simply put abolition is NOT reform! A fact of evolution for the human species has been equality. From race, gender, sexual, ability and age equality. The final step is to act equally towards all species (not just our own). Even if other species don't do the same (in the same way some people with mental disabilites are unable to act equally) we should still treat them equally, regardless of their understanding.
@Danny
"Realistically though, people who eat cheap meat today won't be persuaded to suddenly beome vegan by condemnation, they are more likely to progress one step at a time through encouragement." - Indeed, for example making speciesism less profitable using sabotage.
"While you are aiming for a meat-free world it seems sensible to reduce the overall level of suffering by encouraging a more ethical treatment of animals bred for meat, to get people who currently view vegans as freaks to realise it is something to aim for in their own lives."
Firstly, if people see vegans as freaks then great - we know the corporate media are angry that veganism threatens the economy. Black Panthers and suffragettes were seen as complete 'nutters' when they threatened profit and social conditions so its necessary. It's not something that can suddenly be 'rationalised' by the media unless it no longer threatens capitalism. Furthermore, the more people socialise with vegans and see them as normal the more they loose trust in the corporate state media, and increase trust in animal liberation.
On the "ethical treatment of animals", the more people 'feel' that animals are not being abused, the more they will exploit them. So no it doesn't seem sensible to reduce the overall level of individual suffering, therefore increasing the overall number of individuals suffering.
If you remember back, it's always been the "humane conditions" that extended suffering.
As I said before:
This is so oxymoronic if you turn the tables. Say somebody ate humans, would it suddenly be ok if that person raised the humans organic and free range before eating them? Or is the crime that they ate somebody else, rather than that their death wasn't "humane"? Think if you were that human, would you beg for an organic/free range life, or for freedom? It's obvious.
Another look at genoicde aids this understanding. Do you think holocaust victims wanted a free range life before being killed, or to be free from the holocaust? The answer is obvious. Victims want liberation, not welfare. Welfare doesn't save lives, it only justifies their end.
This all comes down to the same debate, welfare vs. abolition. For me history shows that welfare only reinforces the ability to oppress others, abolition changes social conditions.
Animal liberation won't be bought about by speciesism as much as human liberation hasn't been bought about by racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia, and so on.
veg@n
Even more comments
01.09.2009 23:11
Sure, that makes meat more expensive too which will reduce consumption. It was better to destroy a chicken farm when it is being built than taking action once it is working.
>On the "ethical treatment of animals", the more people 'feel' that animals are not being abused, the more they will exploit them.
I disagree. I think the more people are already thinking about the animals welfare, the less likely they will exploit them. You know yourself even among vegans there are different levels of commitment, from vegans who wear leather boots to ones who won't purchase anything from any shop that sells meat. These are defensible arguments but I heard of one person who wouldn't pass through any town that had 'ham' in it's name, and that to me is obsession to the point of insanity.
>So no it doesn't seem sensible to reduce the overall level of individual suffering
How can you say that though? Say you saw a man torturing a dog on a street. You'd surely take the time to reduce the overall level of suffering that individual dog - few could blame you if you did so with a reasonable amount of violence. If my neighbours kid was walking their dog and a gang attacked both of them, I'd go to the defence of the child first and I think most people would. That is speciesm but it is hard to condemn. Saying that if the kid was only getting beaten up and the dog was being killed, I'd help the dog first. Even among animals, I prefer larger brained mammals over other groups, I realise that is speciest and it may not be innate but it is how I am.
People are mistreating and murdering billions of animals but people are murdering millions of humans. Ending both practices shouldn't be mutually exclusive, and it is good people specialise in ending animal suffering because it is more ignored, but for me by default I oppose the torture and murders of humans more readily, more often.
>Say somebody ate humans, would it suddenly be ok if that person raised the humans organic and free range before eating them?
If I was going to be eaten by an alien race then I would prefer if they treated me kindly rather than unkindly before they slaughtered me. I would prefer not to be imprisoned to be killed, but I don't see how a brutal imprisonment and torture makes my liberty any more likely. I would rather revolt against a benign oppressor than a brutal one.
Danny
You misheard me
02.09.2009 02:55
Well, sorry to break it to you, but human animals in the past have been further exploited once welfare conditions have been imposed. Holocaust, civil rights era, women rights era, etc. The "humane" gassing of Jews made people feel more comfortable with their genoicide and segregation undoubtedly slowed down black liberation to name two examples. Without these factors people would have resisted harder and bought about change quicker.
"How can you say that though?"
Well, because I didn't, and you knew that when you misquoted me. As you know, I actually said: "So no it doesn't seem sensible to reduce the overall level of individual suffering, therefore increasing the overall number of individuals suffering."
I say this because I don't believe in the increased amount of suffering, I want to decrease suffering, not increase the number of individuals suffering 'less'. So your whole dog abuse theory is complete junk. Your real question is would I ask them to impose welfarist conditions, to beat the dog less, or less hard? Of course not, I would make them stop.
"Even among animals, I prefer larger brained mammals over other groups, I realise that is speciesist [sic] and it may not be innate but it is how I am."
Do you ever find yourself holding grudges against mentally disabled people? Seriously?
"People are mistreating and murdering billions of animals but people are murdering millions of humans." - Correction, animals are humans, so its humans and non-humans here.
And no, animal liberation is not exclusive of human animal liberation - it's obviously inclusive, otherwise we would be discussing non-human liberation which in itself is speciesist.
"If I was going to be eaten by an alien race then I would prefer if they treated me kindly rather than unkindly before they slaughtered me. I would prefer not to be imprisoned to be killed, but I don't see how a brutal imprisonment and torture makes my liberty any more likely."
Sorry, but I have to say it - you're getting all of these thoughts mixed. It's a choice - abolition or welfare, knowing that you can't have both, so the choice is obviously liberation. Secondly, don't think people working towards your liberation means your liberation is less likely (just because they aren't concentrating on your comfort before death). The more brutal your death the more likely your liberty because the more people would oppose it. Look at history.
Welfare is obviously evidence that we are winning, because it is one of the only tools (along with reform and repression) to slow down a movement, throw some people off it and make people more willing to consume death. So if you really care about your welfare that much then don't worry - fighting for abolition (unfortuantely) brings this about for you.
The bottom line is you fight for what you want, your end goal, not small steps.
veg@n
Still confused
03.09.2009 01:54
Apologies if you think my thoughts are 'confused', but it'd help if you expanded more, not on veganism or anti-speciesm, but on your own view that revolt is better encouraged under harsher regimes - again sorry if that isn't your position but you haven't clarified enough.
Danny
Getting boring now
03.09.2009 14:21
Really, what kind of food I happen to consume should be quite low down on your list of priorities compared to say: capitalism or state repression or even what you fancy watching on telly tonight?
can you really see the WTO turning to the world bank and saying "they're buying soya, We're really f*cked now!"
We’ve had one of this massive discussions on veganism and murdering meat eaters before and it's ridiculous the amount of attention it got.
human liberation is far more important that the liberation of non-human animals.
In short if you've got time to cry everytime you see someone drinking milk you are really not an anarchist i want anything to do with. Go back to Mummy and Daddies and "make good" like they always wanted you to.
Let’s stop being silly and start smashing the state shall we.
Class Struggler
Interesting new scientific moral challenges
03.09.2009 19:38
"If we can't do away with factory farming, we should at least take steps to minimise the amount of suffering that is caused," says Adam Shriver
Humans consume nearly 300 million tonnes of meat each year. Our appetite for flesh has risen by 50 per cent since the 1960s, and the trend looks set to continue. Most of this will likely come from factory farms, notorious for cramped quarters and ill treatment of animals. Battery farm chickens, for instance, routinely have part of their beaks removed without anaesthetic or pain relief to prevent them from pecking their neighbours.
"Large farms have become an environmental disaster," agrees Alan Goldberg at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland. They generate enormous amounts of waste and greenhouse gases and breed antibiotic resistance. "I think factory farms have to go, it's that simple."
"Some people are working on producing meat at the cellular level and that just seems a better option to me, if it can be done," says Peter Singer, a philosopher and vegetarian at Princeton University.
Danny
Homepage:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20327243.400-painfree-animals-could-take-suffering-out-of-farming.html?full=true
Class Struggler..? H'mmm...
04.09.2009 00:06
Only when we achieve an understanding that ALL sentient occupants of Earth deserve to have rights will Humans be worthy of calling themselves the most advanced species on the planet.
Currently we are a long way off from doing that, and therefore deserve no such title.
Besides, class is not something to be struggled for, it is something to transcend, nay, be actively ignored - to do this is to be VERY revolutionary indeed.
After all, if you acknowledge something (in this case a class system), you are saying it has power over you. Far better to operate as if it doesn't exist at all.
Live in the world as you want it to be.
Classless.
Replies
04.09.2009 01:35
"I think you are wrong about your holocaust analogy. Most Germans wouldn't have known or cared about how they died once they were in the death camps."
This is oxymoronic to read. You were saying that people cared about how they died, you said you would prefere to die "humanely", but as you just said, individuals don't - they just want to be liberated and free from persecution. Non-humans are no different in this sense.
"It was a long, deliberate dehumanisation of the Jews that allowed it to happen."
Exactly. In the same way we as humans have been deliberately (since the age of time almost) de'animalised', in the sense we are in denial about our identity as fellow species to those we exploit, oppress and torture for our own benefit or profit. A phrase "acting like a bunch of animals" comes to mind, when referencing humans that are infact animals.
"In short, an erosion of their rights and welfare rather than an improvement in their rights and welfare."
But the clearest difference is Jews had them taken away. Non-humans never had them in the first place, and 200 years later after welfare and rights begun - they still are not liberated. Women and black people are also not liberated because of these statist conditions.
"Segregation was never a national US policy so I fail to understand that example either."
My point is welfarist conditions (be they statist or not) do not aid liberation, they clearly hinder it. My point is segregation/apartheid, as a welfarist solution to racism, did not help the liberation of black people - it only delayed it. A civil war earlier would have been better/fairer.
"Apologies if you think my thoughts are 'confused', but it'd help if you expanded more, not on veganism or anti-speciesm, but on your own view that revolt is better encouraged under harsher regimes - again sorry if that isn't your position but you haven't clarified enough."
I'm not sure what you mean by 'better encourged', but I do realise that successful social change generates repression (and therefore a harsher regime), so in order to bring about liberation we will have to fight dictatorships whether we like it or not. Look at Greece for example, they have brutal fascism because anarchists have fought so hard. It's part of the philosophy 'things have to get worse to get better, otherwise things will get worse anyway'. I hope that makes more sense. Furthermore people are more aware of dictatorships these days (since 1930s and so on) so are more likely to fight when they recognise one, so to answer your statement, yes revolts are naturally better encouraged through harsher regimes.
@Class Struggler
"Seriously though, when you have the time to debate which particular dietary choice makes you a better person and will eventually make the world a better place you either have nothing to worry about, no class consciousness or have suffered brain damage due to lack of oxygen caused by your head being lodged up your smug middle class arse."
The same could be said about people who debate which particular moral position makes you a better person and brings about a better world, be it anti-racism, anti-sexism, etc. But that wouldn't be fair would it, because confronting oppression is a valid debate.
Furthermore, why is it anyone vegan can't be lower class? What a stereotypical mindset you have. For your information, I almost entirely steal for a living - that's how I live so fuck you!
"In short if you've got time to cry everytime you see someone drinking milk you are really not an anarchist i want anything to do with."
I don't cry everytime I see someone drinking milk, I usually end up congratulating them because they've stolen it. I don't hate people who drink breast-milk as it isn't constructive, I usually just feel sorry for them if they aren't a baby and are still hooked. I also wouldn't cry if I saw someone abusing someone else, I would instead transfere my rage and anger into action and try to save the victim, for example raping non-human animals for milk.
This reminds me of the days when people cared only about their own race or gender. Shame how the new fascism is to prioritise your own species over others, how pathetic.
veg@n
Chick Grinder
04.09.2009 14:55
Danny
Re
05.09.2009 01:38
People were poor when human slavery was around, and unsuprisingly the "I'm poor so I need slaves" didn't really go down well then. I don't see it as justification for non-humans either.
Don't think I haven't seen these videos, I was once a meat-eater just like most people. Furthermore I don't have any interest in MfA. The "have mercy" idea doesn't really sell for me.
veg@n