War in the Middle East While the World is Watching

Hezbollah started it. Why support the collective punishment that Hezbollah has been meteing out for six years against Israel? Just yesterday Hezbollah massacred 2 Arab children in Nazareth.
Your angst is misplaced.
Hezbollah is the worst thing that has happened to the freedom of Lebanon. After the end of the Syrian occupation things were looking up, and now they've destroyed everything.
I hate Hezbollah more than I hate the Israelis.
I wish we had a strong army that could kill the Hezbollah fighters.

Robert Fisk has reported for ABC Radio National Breakfast and Democracy Now! this past week from his home in Beirut.

There is somethings the BBC is not telling us.

ABC 14th July
 http://www.abc.net.au/cgi-bin/common/player_launch.pl?s=rn/breakfast&d=rn/breakfast/audio&r=bst_1_14072006_2856.ram&w=bst_1_14072006_28M.asx&t=14%20July%202006&p=3
25mins into the show for 12min 15sec

DN! 19th July
 http://play.rbn.com/?url=demnow/demnow/demand/2006/july/audio/dn20
060719.ra&proto=rtsp&start=
Mr Bob's report starts 13 min into the show and ends 24'45" later.

"Listen to Mr Bob from Beiruit"

It's liekm listening to "Baghdad Bob" and believing what he says

The pictures below by David Silverman were taken on the 14th July near
the Lebanese border. In them Israeli soldiers can be seen loading DU
shells into tanks. The first image appeared in some early editions of
the UK Guardian newspaper on the 15th of July and was subsequently
replaced in later editions.

To access the images goto:

 http://editorial.gettyimages.com

and type in the image numbers below. Please spread this amongst your
national media.


Image 71440735

Israeli Military Operates Against Hezbollah Militants
LEBANESE BORDER, ISRAEL - JULY 14: An Israeli army soldier carries
armor-piercing ammunition as he loads his tank ahead of possible
action against Hezbollah militants July 14, 2006 on Israel's northern
border with Lebanon. Israel has stepped up its action against
Hezbollah targets in an effort to drive the Islamic militants from the
border and to force the return of two soldiers captured by the group
in a cross-border attack two days ago on July 12. (Photo by David
Silverman/Getty Images)
14 Jul 2006
Getty Images News
By: David Silverman


Image 71440734

LEBANESE BORDER, ISRAEL - JULY 14: Israeli army tank crew load their
Merkeva tanks with armor-piercing ammunition as they prepare for
possible action against Hezbollah militants July 14, 2006 on Israel's
northern border with Lebanon. Israel has stepped up its action against
Hezbollah targets in an effort to drive the Islamic militants from the
border and to force the return of two soldiers captured by the group
in a cross-border attack two days ago on July 12.
Israeli Military Operates Against Hezbollah Militants
14 Jul 2006
Getty Images News
By: David Silverman

In peace,

CADU

There is a true story about how during the war, one Japanese newspaper ran a regular column relating the rivalry between two japanese officers. These two 'gentlemen' engaged in a very special challenge- namely to see which of them could be responsible for the greatest number of beheadings by sword. Every week, excited japanese readers could discover which of these two soldiers was in the lead. After the war, the responsible person at the newspaper was executed for crimes against humanity.

 http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/95576

If it were in my power, I would condemn every person responsible for this front page of the 'Evening Standard' to the same fate. Sometimes I point out that we have become our generation's 'nazis'. However, when I see such a clear example of this truth, as with this newspaper, no matter how well prepared I think I am, another part of me dies, and what is left is the cold numbness of shock and disbelief. I share my heart with all those that watched with equal disbelieving horror as the circumstances leading to the ignition of WW2 were allowed to progress unchallenged.

This thread will soon descend (as is intended- see the events of the similar 'beach-atrocity' thread) into a mass of New Reich trolling on behalf of Blair, and his Gaza/Lebanon campaigns. If you wish to see the images and read the comment that you WILL NOT find in any UK source, one excellent starting point is:

www.uruknet.info

Here you will find words that I most certainly could not use at this place speaking what every decent Human on Planet Earth thinks about the 'Evening Standard' front page propaganda atrocity. Be warned- if your anger about events in the Middle East only results from using UK sources, access to the truth will come close to destroying your mind. Clear knowledge of even today's crimes in futherance of Blair's wars of aggression is corrosive to the point of being soul-destroying. It seems beyond belief that Blair has vastly worse crimes planned, once his genocide of Iran is underway.

I have seen it ...

... I couldn't agree more with you ...

This person shouldn't even make it to traitors gate ... the nearest ditch will do.

Oh it's only the same newspaper which said


"45 minutes"

and then had a cut n paste "crowd" of Iraqis (Chalabi's mates) cheering the toppling of Saddam's statue



Don't you remember?????

Sami from Lebanon: Hezbolla are certainly not my friends. As an athiest I am worse than a Christian in the eyes of Islamic fundamentalists, and worse than a Muslim in the eyes of Christian fundamentalists.

However, Hezbollah did not start this. If we really want to lay the blame we can lay it at the feet of the British state, which founded Israel. Perhaps we could lay it at the feet of Zionist terrorists such as the Stern Gang (Lehi) and other groups in Israel who conduced acts of terrorism against the British administrators. For more on this see:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

However, the immediate problem follows thousands of crimes carried out on all sides. If we were to pinpoint one thing (as so many in the systemic media are so keen to do), the Hezbollah was in response to an Israeli raid in Lebanon (which no doubt was in response to something else!)

Don't take my work for it, though, here's some evidence:
 http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060712/D8IQE0SO0.html
Just in case the associated press is part of Arab conspiracy, an Israeli source:
 http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3274788,00.html
And if they are self-hating Jews, how about the Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center:
 http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/hezbollah_upd1e.pdf

None of this, however, invalidates your point that they are a bad thing for Lebanon, but again, they exist because of the seizure of Palestinian land in the first place.

I'll never understand how you can sympathise with islamic terrorists like Hezbollah (lit. "Party of God") and at the same time claim that Bush is a dangerous religious lunatic (laugh),

Or how you can sympathise with terrorist governments that want to destroy Israel and kill all jews (cf. Hamas charter), over Israel - the only successful secular democracy in the middle east that is comparable to European nations and contributes more good to the world than all the muslim countries added together.

You know islamic terrorists have killed over 1400 people in Thailand since 2004 trying to establish a sultanate? They target everyone from police officers to buddhist school teachers... But you won't find protests against them on Indymedia, you won't find any sympathy with the Thai people, no calls for UN intervention (which is a joke anyway), no nothing, it doesn't even make mainstream news. Why does everyone pick on Israel?

DV and Reality czech (one and the same?). I presume you are replying to my comment.

DV - the point is not to either support Zionism or Hizbollah. It is certainly not to sympathise with either (did you see the title of my comment?). In fact if you are talking of people who want to destroy Israel, of course there are also the Orthodox Jewsish groups Neturei Karta (www.nkuk.org) and Jews Against Zionism (www.jewsagainstzionism.com). Of course there are also plenty of Christian Fundamentalist groups and indeed the lovely Nazis who would like Jews to cease to exist. Saying that, I do not think the destruction of Israel is possible or desirable.

The point here, for the nth time, is that the people being bombed are not the people who want to destroy Israel - Lebanon is, after all 40% Christian ( https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/le.html)

Yes I do know about the Islamic insurgency in Thailand, and yes it has been reported on Indymedia ( http://www1.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/04/290127.html - so you ought to retract your statement please!) though if you would like to contribute another item - perhaps a feature, I am sure you would be welcome to do so. I don't think any regular Indymedia participants would do anything other than condemn the deaths of 2,400 people in Thailand any less than they would condemn the deaths of at least 100,000 Iraqis since the start of the invasion, or the deaths of 2,000,000 Vietnamese during the US invasion of that country. The point is that these wars should all be opposed.

Reality czech - my post was supposed to read "the Hezbollah *action* was in response..." to illustrate the absurdity of making a simplistic evaluation of the situation - the point is to understand the situation properly so it can be stopped.

You are right that the PLO moved to Lebanon after BS, but we can go further back to 1948 when there were already 100,000 Palestinian refugees (the majority of who of course hadn't done anything wrong, yet we refuse to use the term "ethnic cleansing" to describe this), plus another 200,000 by the 1970s. The idea that "they went to the Christian villiages in Lebanon and systematically massacred thousands of unarmed Christians. What happened in Damour is only one example" is a little absurd - it was what is normally referred to (see the CIA link above) as a civil war between the Palestinians and allies against initially Lebanese communists and then Maronites (who I presume you mean when you refer to "Christians"). Ironically on your claims (given its support for Hezbollah), the Syrians came in on the side of the Maronites.

Hizbollah, however, was not really part of the Lebanese civil war as such - it was formed to fight the Israeli invasion and occupation of southern Lebanon in 1982 ( http://www.cfr.org/publication/9155/#2 - a nice right-wing source, just in case you are tempted to flame me!). To go back to my original point, this was in response to assaults from Lebanon, which was a response to the expulsion of Palestinians, which was in part a response to the 1967 war, which was in response to the foundation of Israel, which was a response to Zionist terrorism and British imperialist policy in the Middle East.

"people who want to destroy Israel, of course there are also the Orthodox Jewsish groups Neturei Karta (www.nkuk.org) and Jews Against Zionism (www.jewsagainstzionism.com)."


Lee, Adolf Eichmann...could they be the same?

I love it when the Nazi/left drags out their palace Jews..."See, they hate you too"...

Reality, if you are not going to bother reading and just throw insults around, go somewhere else. I have been trying to engage you sincerely, so if you want a playground go to one.

Perhaps you do want to engage sincerely but just have reading problems, so I will give you bullet points instead.

First I said
The point is "certainly not to sympathise with either" Hamas or Hizbullah

Then I said there there are lots of people who want to destroy Israel, and in the context of the above, I don't agree with them. I listed:
Orthodox Jewsish groups
Christian fundamentalist groups
and then sarcastically, the lovely Nazis.

Then (and I will write this in capitals so you don't miss it) I said
I DO NOT THINK THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL IS POSSIBLE OR DESIRABLE (please read twice)

The point of listing those groups is that there are complex relations between Israel and Judaism, and as you can't read between the lines I will spell them out for you
Orthodox groups like Jews, but hate Israel
Christian fundamentalists like Israel but hate Jews
Nazis, like Hamas and Hizbullah, hate both.

Ergo (and I am sorry to thust logic on your tied brain), it is possible to dislike the idea or Israel without disliking Jews; dislike Jews without disliking Israel, but it is also possible to dislike both.

Just to set you straight, I dislike neither, though disagree with many aspects of the domestic and foreign policy of Israel in a similar way to which I disagee with policies of many states. It is called not being prejudiced.

My repeated comments trying to explain Israel's position comments seemed to get blocked by the BBCs have your say, I did a Google search on BBC bias and came up with this site., and a thread proving the BBC bias on Have your say.

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/03/337058.html

At first I was quite excited, and thought I had come across an open minded, progressive group of free thinkers. Then I began to read the articles and comments and was sickened.

Israel goes to extreme measures to protect civilian lives even if the cost is their own lives. Here is a classic example. I challenge any of you Israel haters to find a hole in this

Yesterday 9 Israeli soldiers were killed and 22 wounded while trying to take the town of Bint Jbail. Bint Jbail is known as Hizbollah's Capital.

I think we can take it as given that Israel has the capability to level the entire town from the air and using artillery without exposing its ground forces.

Israel dropped thousands of leaflets, made thousands telephone calls and sent text messages to residents of Bint Jbail requesting them to leave the town, since they were going to bomb it. Despite this civilians remained The reasons for them remaining is not relevant to my argument, whether by choice, solidarity with Hizbollah, out of fear for leaving their homes or perhaps Hizbollah did not allow them to leave.

"A high-ranking source in the Northern Command told The Jerusalem Post Wednesday that Bint Jbail could not be attacked by air since there were still several hundred civilians there. "

The people of Bint Jbail are nowadays mainly Shiite and strongly supportive of Hizbollah (Most of the Christian population left) The town is also linked with drug trafficking. So in theory the Israel you lot describe should have not issue sacrificing the population of this town, in order to save their soldiers lives. (You know the value which Israel places on the lives of each of its soldiers.)


If you lot are so stupid to get conned by the Anti Israel propaganda being spewed on you and by you. Try muster enough brain power to remember one short phrase.

Israel Good - Hamas/Hizbollah/Fatah.... Evil

Ryan Heitner, it appears that you believe yourself to be eligible for membership of "an open minded, progressive group of free thinkers". How sad then that your 'challege' does not bear this out.

"Israel goes to extreme measures to protect civilian lives even if the cost is their own lives."

However many times you say this, it will never be true. Only if you decontextual;ise and then put some spin on it, will you able to even believe it yourself. And decontextualise and spin is just what you did.

Heres a little context:

OPEN QUOTE MEDIA LENS( http://www.medialens.org/alerts/index.php)

In launching an emergency appeal for aid on July 24, the United Nations estimated that the lives of 800,000 Lebanese civilians have been disrupted by Israeli bombing. Hundreds of bridges and virtually all road networks have been systematically destroyed across the country, making relief efforts almost impossible. BBC and other journalists report many civilians trapped in the rubble of villages in the south of Lebanon cut off from medical aid by air strikes. ReliefWeb comments:

"As the conflict continues, food stocks in many parts of Lebanon are running low. Shortages of water are already a reality in parts of southern Lebanon due to a lack of electricity and fuel. The possibility of shortages of medical supplies in health facilities in the coming weeks is of growing concern. While medical and food stocks are available delivery is almost impossible in many parts of the country." ('Flash appeal on the Lebanon crisis launched today,' ReliefWeb, July 24, 2006;  http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/SODA-6S23GF?OpenDocument)

To date, some 377 Lebanese and 17 Israeli civilians have been killed in the conflict. ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1828142,00.html)

Save The Children reports that 45% of the Lebanese dead are children, as are 200,000 of the 500,000 refugees forced to flee the bombing. (Save The Children, 'Crisis in middle east - children hit hardest,' July 21, 2006;  http://www.savethechildren.org.uk/scuk/jsp/resources/details.jsp?id=4281&group=resources§ion=news&subsection=details&gawcam=mec&gawadgrp=mec1

The Red Cross reported (July 23) that five of its volunteers and three patients were wounded when Israeli aircraft attacked two ambulances in successive missile strikes. The attacks took place near Qana when an ambulance arrived to evacuate three patients from the border town of Tibnin. The drivers said that two guided missiles were fired at each ambulance. Three injured patients - a woman, her son and grandson - were all injured again, the son losing his leg to a direct hit from one of the anti-tank missiles. (Ed O'Loughlin, 'Ambulances fired on by Israel, says Red Cross,' Sydney Morning Herald, July 25, 2006)

According to Human Rights Watch, Israel has used artillery-fired cluster munitions in populated areas of Lebanon. Researchers on the ground confirmed that a cluster munitions attack on the village of Blida on July 19 killed one and wounded at least 12 civilians, including seven children. Eyewitnesses and survivors described how the artillery shells dropped hundreds of cluster submunitions on the village. Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch, commented:

"Cluster munitions are unacceptably inaccurate and unreliable weapons when used around civilians. They should never be used in populated areas." ('Israeli cluster munitions hit civilians in Lebanon Israel Must Not Use Indiscriminate Weapons,' HRW, July 24, 2006;  http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/EKOI-6S2458?OpenDocument&rc=3&cc=lbn)

CLOSE QUOTE MEDIA LENS

"I think we can take it as given that Israel has the capability to level the entire town from the air and using artillery without exposing its ground forces."

Sadly, you're wrong on this:

OPEN QUOTE SPIEGEL ( http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,428711,00.html)

For days the military has been indicating that only a ground offensive can achieve its objective. "We have to go into the villages," says the commander. "But it is obvious that we will be attacked there." Even more obvious is the fact that Hezbollah's fighters will have an advantage because of their local knowledge.

That it would not remain simply an aerial war, must have been apparent to those responsible in Ehud Olmert's government. During the past few days Israeli newspapers have reported that two years ago an attack against Hezbollah was played out on the military planning table. The result: Simply by bombing the Hezbollah militia from a height of 10,000 meters would be ineffective against their small bunkers, plentiful weapons, and improvised yet functioning communications system.

CLOSE QUOTE SPIEGEL

In other words, bombardment simply won't do the job, ground forces HAVE to go in.

Furthermore, this very morning, the Israeli cabinet decided to use MORE BOMBS and LESS GROUND FORCES

OPEN QUOTE BUSINESS DAY ( http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/topstories.aspx?ID=BD4A241541)

Olmert’s inner security cabinet met today to consider what response to take after nine soldiers were killed in south Lebanon the day before, the heaviest loss in 24 hours that the army has suffered since the war began. A decision was expected later.

"Ministers want to step up air strikes and limit ground operations," said Israel’s Army Radio. Israel Radio carried a similar report.

CLOSE QUOTE BUSINESS DAY

Olmert and his fellow mks appear to have demolished your argument in the course of one meeting.

Your proof of Israel's 'righteousness' centres on this:

"Israel dropped thousands of leaflets, made thousands telephone calls and sent text messages to residents of Bint Jbail requesting them to leave the town, since they were going to bomb it. Despite this civilians remained The reasons for them remaining is not relevant to my argument, whether by choice, solidarity with Hizbollah, out of fear for leaving their homes or perhaps Hizbollah did not allow them to leave."

What you fail to mention is that Israel destroyed ingrastructure such as roads and bridges BEFORE giving the warnings. And fired on convoys that followed its advice. Including two Red Cross ambulances describeb by Fisk thus:

OPEN QUOTE FISK ( http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14223.htm)

And how come - since this now obsesses the humanitarian organisations working in Lebanon - that the Israelis bombed two ambulances in Qana, killing two of the three wounded inside. All the crews were injured - one with a piece of shrapnel in his neck - but what worried the Lebanese Red Cross was that the Israeli missiles had pierced the very centre of the red cross painted on the roof of each vehicle. Did the pious use the cross as their aiming point?

CLOSE QUOTE FISK

You then decide to reveal your hand to us all, you're not progressive nor open minded at all:

"If you lot are so stupid to get conned by the Anti Israel propaganda being spewed on you and by you. Try muster enough brain power to remember one short phrase.

Israel Good - Hamas/Hizbollah/Fatah.... Evil"

Nice newspeak. Lets be clear on one thing:

HAMAS/HIZBOLLAH/FATAH ARE THE BASTARD CHILDREN OF ISRAELI OCCUPATION

If you think Tony Blair and the international community aren't representing your voice and calling for an immediate halt to the current atrocities being perpetrated against the sovereign state of Lebanon, then please write to the Israeli govt yourself.

Please find the contact details of the Israeli Prime Minister's office below.

Please tell them to cease the atrocities, and end the bloodshed and loss of innocent civilian life.

Please tell them to withdraw to their recognised borders, and cease to try and steal the water resources of the Litani River under the guise of this unecessary war.

Please tell them to respect the lives and sovereignty of their middle eastern semite neighbours and cousins, and seek to build a real peace in the middle east based on reconciliation, respect and value for all human life regardless of religion.

 http://www.pmo.gov.il/PMOEng/PM+Office/Contacts/list.htm