We begin by hearing Suelo tell how he felt when having put his last few dollars in a phone booth he walked away from money for good. He describes how at home he felt once he had decided to 'make the universe his employer', how amazingly secure. He speaks with his biographer, Mark Sundeen, giving some of the dramatic background which lead up to his decision to give up money. Will we live to see the day that everyone on earth breaks the bonds of money and embraces self-direction in their employment? Our main interview this week is with Charles Eisenstein, author of the Ascent of Humanity, who also draws from the book 'Sacred Economics' in his answers. He firmly rejects the proposition that people are fundamentally lazy and greedy. Laziness, he says, is rebellion against doing the wrong thing -- for many people, a paid job which means nothing to them. Greed, as he points out, makes no sense in a world of abundance, which is the natural state of affairs, as opposed to the scarcity which follows naturally from the modern money system and its story of universal competition and separation. We pause this interview to amplify one of Eisenstein's points, about the connection between a musician and their audience; we hear from Amanda Palmer whose Ted talk focused on the fact that discussion of how to make people pay for music missed the esential point that people already want to - instead she recommends asking how to let people pay for music.