The Apache Killing Video
WRH | 19.01.2004 01:48 | Anti-militarism | World
No arrest, no charges, no trial.
The US Army as judge, jury and executioner.
Welcome to the New Democratic Iraq.
The US Army as judge, jury and executioner.
Welcome to the New Democratic Iraq.
This video has caused a great deal of controversy. Originally shown on ABC TV, it was first shown as an object lesson as to what happens to Iraqi Insurgents who dare show weapons before US forces. However, as time goes on, doubt has begun to surface as to whether the people shown blown to pieces with the 30mm cannon on the Apache were really insurgents, or just harmless farmers.
This is what is known about the tape. It is from the thermographic camera system of an Apache attack helicopter. The image is of heat, not of light. The time of day appears to be midmorning, based on the time display seen on the heads-up display. Military time uses a 24 hour system, there is no "PM" in military clocks.
The vehicle at the far left of the video is a farm tractor, facing away. The engine is running as is evidenced by the hot vertical exhaust tupe and the glowing undercarriage seen in the thermal image. Attached to the rear of the tractor is a plough, and the dirt in the foreground shows clear furrows.
There is a longer version of the tape (which may not play on everyone's computers) that does show one individual taking a long object or objects from his car and taking it over to the vehicle at the far right. It is assumed by those who want to justify the shooting that this object is a missile launcher assembly being discarded. However, one cannot explain why someone who had just fired off an RPG at US troops would bother to put the used launcher into his car, only to them drive someplace else and then discard it. Nor does it make sense that the man would place a weapon over there it is likely to be run over by the tractor and plough, damaging both the weapon and the plough assembly as well. And, given that the man does not in any way point the object at the approaching helicopter, it is clear that at least he does not think it is a working weapon. Given that the object is actually longer than an RPG launcher assembly, three alternative explanations suggest themselves.
1. That the object is a bundle of long handled farm tools being taken over to where the farmers are working with the tractor.
2. That the object is a bundle of thin poles to be driven into the ground ahead of the tractor to give the tractor driver a visible guide to keep the furrows straight.
3. As suggested by a reader, that the object may be part of the plastic pipe irrigation system used in dry climate agriculture.
We can deduce several facts from the video.
From the perspective seen in the video, it is clear that the Apache helicopter is not being threatened. It is hovering, moving slowly forward, and not engaging in any evasive maneuvers which would suggest that the individuals on the ground have threatened the apache in any way.
From the body language of the individuals on the ground, it is clear that they themselves do not feel they are doing anything which should be of concern to a US helicopter hovering nearby. In other words, they do not act like the object thrown into the field near the tractor is anything the US helicopter would object to. No sooner has the man delivered the object to the tractor than he turns and walks back to the car. At no time does he (or anyone else) act like they are trying to escape the area until the Apache opens fire.
From The Geneva Convention 3-1: 1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria
The very FIRST person gunned down was the person who had been driving the tractor. This video records a war crime.
This is what is known about the tape. It is from the thermographic camera system of an Apache attack helicopter. The image is of heat, not of light. The time of day appears to be midmorning, based on the time display seen on the heads-up display. Military time uses a 24 hour system, there is no "PM" in military clocks.
The vehicle at the far left of the video is a farm tractor, facing away. The engine is running as is evidenced by the hot vertical exhaust tupe and the glowing undercarriage seen in the thermal image. Attached to the rear of the tractor is a plough, and the dirt in the foreground shows clear furrows.
There is a longer version of the tape (which may not play on everyone's computers) that does show one individual taking a long object or objects from his car and taking it over to the vehicle at the far right. It is assumed by those who want to justify the shooting that this object is a missile launcher assembly being discarded. However, one cannot explain why someone who had just fired off an RPG at US troops would bother to put the used launcher into his car, only to them drive someplace else and then discard it. Nor does it make sense that the man would place a weapon over there it is likely to be run over by the tractor and plough, damaging both the weapon and the plough assembly as well. And, given that the man does not in any way point the object at the approaching helicopter, it is clear that at least he does not think it is a working weapon. Given that the object is actually longer than an RPG launcher assembly, three alternative explanations suggest themselves.
1. That the object is a bundle of long handled farm tools being taken over to where the farmers are working with the tractor.
2. That the object is a bundle of thin poles to be driven into the ground ahead of the tractor to give the tractor driver a visible guide to keep the furrows straight.
3. As suggested by a reader, that the object may be part of the plastic pipe irrigation system used in dry climate agriculture.
We can deduce several facts from the video.
From the perspective seen in the video, it is clear that the Apache helicopter is not being threatened. It is hovering, moving slowly forward, and not engaging in any evasive maneuvers which would suggest that the individuals on the ground have threatened the apache in any way.
From the body language of the individuals on the ground, it is clear that they themselves do not feel they are doing anything which should be of concern to a US helicopter hovering nearby. In other words, they do not act like the object thrown into the field near the tractor is anything the US helicopter would object to. No sooner has the man delivered the object to the tractor than he turns and walks back to the car. At no time does he (or anyone else) act like they are trying to escape the area until the Apache opens fire.
From The Geneva Convention 3-1: 1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria
The very FIRST person gunned down was the person who had been driving the tractor. This video records a war crime.
WRH
Homepage:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/
Additions
Whining Bullies
25.01.2004 09:19
"He who is in battle zone and is deemed hostile is usually fired upon until destroyed."
Wrong. The Geneva Convention says that civilians and the wounded can't be fired on. The tractor driver was probably a civilian, and the wounded guy on the ground was no threat to anyone. Incidents like this prove that the US only cares about honouring its commitments under international law when it stands to gain something from it right away.
This is just one more reason why the word of the White House is now considered to be worth shit by all their former allies. It will come back to bite the US, and probably soon.
Now these strutting little bullies are coming crying to the UN for help, since they see that there's no way in hell they can survive if the Shia majority join the fight, when they've only been fighting the Sunni minority up 'til now.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040125/325/ekaf8.html
The Shia have some major scores to settle with the US, after they helped Saddam destroy the Shia uprising after the first Gulf war, since they figured keeping Saddam in power but weak was better than a Shia-controlled Iraq.
Yeah, the UN's not so "irrelevant" anymore now, is it. Fuck 'em. They're so fucking tough, let them sort it out themselves. Bailing out the US isn't worth the life of a single British soldier.
Wrong. The Geneva Convention says that civilians and the wounded can't be fired on. The tractor driver was probably a civilian, and the wounded guy on the ground was no threat to anyone. Incidents like this prove that the US only cares about honouring its commitments under international law when it stands to gain something from it right away.
This is just one more reason why the word of the White House is now considered to be worth shit by all their former allies. It will come back to bite the US, and probably soon.
Now these strutting little bullies are coming crying to the UN for help, since they see that there's no way in hell they can survive if the Shia majority join the fight, when they've only been fighting the Sunni minority up 'til now.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040125/325/ekaf8.html The Shia have some major scores to settle with the US, after they helped Saddam destroy the Shia uprising after the first Gulf war, since they figured keeping Saddam in power but weak was better than a Shia-controlled Iraq.
Yeah, the UN's not so "irrelevant" anymore now, is it. Fuck 'em. They're so fucking tough, let them sort it out themselves. Bailing out the US isn't worth the life of a single British soldier.
Ian
Differences
26.01.2004 20:43
Hello Carlos
Thank you for taking the time to respond to the comments on the Indymedia website regarding the Apache helicopter atrocity (I say atrocity as I’m sure that is how the families of the victims would refer to the deaths of their loved ones).
I do feel that my comments, in no way, can be attributed to a sweeping attack on the American people. They are in fact meant to be calming and reasonable, and I do not agree with some of the more hostile views expressed on the site. I do believe that the average citizen of the world is manipulated by the powers that be, and I’m sure that has been the case throughout history. I am trying to express the sense of hopelessness that is prevalent amongst most people with regard to international relationships between peoples and politics in general. The only answer that I can see is that human beings learn to accommodate each other’s differences, to share the wealth of the world more fairly, and that we each take responsibility for our own actions. This does not involve indiscriminate killing. It would be nice to think that terrorism is a monster that will disappear once slain – unfortunately the truth is that every death spawns a multitude of hate leading to a never ending cycle of suffering.
I do not pretend to be an expert on international affairs. I have been to Afghanistan, Israel, India and Nepal as an independent traveller. I have stayed amongst the people there, and I have felt a little of their suffering. I have also lived in Lockerbie, and understand some of the suffering caused to the people involved in the Pan Am disaster. I shared a house in Cornwall with a victim of the Bali bombings. I honestly don’t feel any hate towards those who carried out the attacks, only sorrow for the suffering they have caused. Sorrow that our leaders do not have the imagination to see that responding with yet more violence does not solve anything. Promoting the base human emotion of greed through violence will never lead to peace – it just can’t, and we have to work towards finding another way for the sake of future generations.
I am not nationalistic so I won’t enter into an argument as to the relative merits of various countries – borders aren’t there to protect us, they are there to contain us. In essence all peoples are the same, with the same needs and aspirations. Belittling people because they do not have the same opinions does not solve the problem. Blaming a collective psyche on the weather is not helpful and rather distasteful considering the gravity of the situation. I am an anti-establishmentarian.
You mention the sources of funding for the terrorists – all of the evidence points towards the various western governments being directly complicit in arming the worst despots in the world. I seem to recall a Col Oliver North (Rtd.) having much to do with both arms and narco dollars. Much of the IRA funding came from the USA. The British establishment trained Idi Amin and created Iraq. The list goes on.
Please, I fail to see any humour in your anecdotal quotation; it doesn’t prove anything, other than that the world is in the state it is in, because of such thinking. I would imagine that should I be placed in the situation you mention, I would attempt to restrain my assailant so that he could not attack me further.
I have caused, and felt, much pain as a result of my own past actions. Fortunately I am able to understand this and, as a result, to react in as positive a way as I am able. Violence is the easy option – standing up, admitting one’s made mistakes, and then taking the path that leads to the least suffering for everyone, is far harder.
Love and compassion to you
Steve Russell
-----Original Message-----
From: Carlos J Melendez [mailto:
ranger6@bellsouth.net]
Sent: 26 January 2004 11:41
To: sruss99@hotmail.com
Subject: Your comments on the Apache video
Good Morning Bloke.
A Yank here, Vietnam Vet and observer of history of war.
Read your comments and others on Indymedia UK. Inspiring? No. Motivation? This is the rationale of my mail, why your views are one sided?
Can we have a dialog in which your express your views, your life experience, your political beliefs, without ranting? Will you have a willingness to listen to another point of view? Can you react rationally without attacks on the US?
We in the United States, especially my generation, have always looked at the UK as our strongest ally. I have traveled to your country and when the sun was shining was most impressed with how friendly your countrymen are. I do understand the ugly side of your collective personality when you look at your weather which is predominantly overcast. It’s easy to understand not having a sunny viewpoint. So you can appreciate my wonderment when I read in the newspapers and watch TV reports of the UK anti-war dissidents.
What I will never understand is why the “anti-war” voice doesn’t speak to the leaders of international terrorism and ask them politely to stop the killing. For example, if you are a staunch believer in your anti-US beliefs, why not ask the Leaders of International Terrorism whey they resort to killing unarmed civilians to the same degree you do regarding this Apache crew? Why isn’t there dissent on terrorists in North Korea, Indonesian, Philippines, Syria, Iran, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Africa, Italy, France, Greece, South America and you pick the place. Why isn’t there objection to the narco dollars used to support international terrorism? Why isn’t there outrage on the sources of funding and munitions to the terrorists? Why are you not protesting against the international terrorists who would like nothing better than to blow a dirty bomb in London and kill innocent civilians?
I just don’t understand why you don’t have a balanced and equally disgusted attitude against the terrorists? Your site seems to be anti-establishment?
With my comments above as a premise, I ask you are you tolerant of international terrorism and believe you should not go after them before they get you? Do you really believe that it is wise and prudent to not find them out and destroy them before they destroy you? Do you really believe that the time for outrage will be when suicide bombers start killing innocent UK civilians in Savile Row, Carnaby Street, Piccadilly Circus, Leicester Square, Buckingham Palace, 10 Downing Street, or wherever?
Here’s an anecdote that is intended to have a humorous effect with the reader. I look forward to your response.
Carlos J Melendez
Major U.S. Army (retired)
Paradise (aka sunny south Florida)
Subject: How to deal with idiots....
What to do if you happen upon a peace rally by stupid naive hemp-shirt-wearing college idiots, to teach them why force is sometimes needed:
1) Approach dumb rich ignorant student talking about "peace" and saying there should be, "no retaliation."
2) Engage in brief conversation, ask if military force is appropriate.
3) When he says "No," ask, "Why not?"
4) Wait until he says something to the effect of, "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should not cause more violence."
5) When he's in mid sentence, punch him in the face as hard as you can.
6) When he gets back up to up to punch you, point out that it would be a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you, because that would, "be awful and he should not cause more violence."
7) Wait until he agrees that he has pledged not to commit additional violence.
8) Punch him in the face again, harder this time. Repeat steps 5 through 8 until they understand that sometimes it is necessary to retaliate.
Thank you for taking the time to respond to the comments on the Indymedia website regarding the Apache helicopter atrocity (I say atrocity as I’m sure that is how the families of the victims would refer to the deaths of their loved ones).
I do feel that my comments, in no way, can be attributed to a sweeping attack on the American people. They are in fact meant to be calming and reasonable, and I do not agree with some of the more hostile views expressed on the site. I do believe that the average citizen of the world is manipulated by the powers that be, and I’m sure that has been the case throughout history. I am trying to express the sense of hopelessness that is prevalent amongst most people with regard to international relationships between peoples and politics in general. The only answer that I can see is that human beings learn to accommodate each other’s differences, to share the wealth of the world more fairly, and that we each take responsibility for our own actions. This does not involve indiscriminate killing. It would be nice to think that terrorism is a monster that will disappear once slain – unfortunately the truth is that every death spawns a multitude of hate leading to a never ending cycle of suffering.
I do not pretend to be an expert on international affairs. I have been to Afghanistan, Israel, India and Nepal as an independent traveller. I have stayed amongst the people there, and I have felt a little of their suffering. I have also lived in Lockerbie, and understand some of the suffering caused to the people involved in the Pan Am disaster. I shared a house in Cornwall with a victim of the Bali bombings. I honestly don’t feel any hate towards those who carried out the attacks, only sorrow for the suffering they have caused. Sorrow that our leaders do not have the imagination to see that responding with yet more violence does not solve anything. Promoting the base human emotion of greed through violence will never lead to peace – it just can’t, and we have to work towards finding another way for the sake of future generations.
I am not nationalistic so I won’t enter into an argument as to the relative merits of various countries – borders aren’t there to protect us, they are there to contain us. In essence all peoples are the same, with the same needs and aspirations. Belittling people because they do not have the same opinions does not solve the problem. Blaming a collective psyche on the weather is not helpful and rather distasteful considering the gravity of the situation. I am an anti-establishmentarian.
You mention the sources of funding for the terrorists – all of the evidence points towards the various western governments being directly complicit in arming the worst despots in the world. I seem to recall a Col Oliver North (Rtd.) having much to do with both arms and narco dollars. Much of the IRA funding came from the USA. The British establishment trained Idi Amin and created Iraq. The list goes on.
Please, I fail to see any humour in your anecdotal quotation; it doesn’t prove anything, other than that the world is in the state it is in, because of such thinking. I would imagine that should I be placed in the situation you mention, I would attempt to restrain my assailant so that he could not attack me further.
I have caused, and felt, much pain as a result of my own past actions. Fortunately I am able to understand this and, as a result, to react in as positive a way as I am able. Violence is the easy option – standing up, admitting one’s made mistakes, and then taking the path that leads to the least suffering for everyone, is far harder.
Love and compassion to you
Steve Russell
-----Original Message-----
From: Carlos J Melendez [mailto:
ranger6@bellsouth.net] Sent: 26 January 2004 11:41
To:
sruss99@hotmail.com Subject: Your comments on the Apache video
Good Morning Bloke.
A Yank here, Vietnam Vet and observer of history of war.
Read your comments and others on Indymedia UK. Inspiring? No. Motivation? This is the rationale of my mail, why your views are one sided?
Can we have a dialog in which your express your views, your life experience, your political beliefs, without ranting? Will you have a willingness to listen to another point of view? Can you react rationally without attacks on the US?
We in the United States, especially my generation, have always looked at the UK as our strongest ally. I have traveled to your country and when the sun was shining was most impressed with how friendly your countrymen are. I do understand the ugly side of your collective personality when you look at your weather which is predominantly overcast. It’s easy to understand not having a sunny viewpoint. So you can appreciate my wonderment when I read in the newspapers and watch TV reports of the UK anti-war dissidents.
What I will never understand is why the “anti-war” voice doesn’t speak to the leaders of international terrorism and ask them politely to stop the killing. For example, if you are a staunch believer in your anti-US beliefs, why not ask the Leaders of International Terrorism whey they resort to killing unarmed civilians to the same degree you do regarding this Apache crew? Why isn’t there dissent on terrorists in North Korea, Indonesian, Philippines, Syria, Iran, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Africa, Italy, France, Greece, South America and you pick the place. Why isn’t there objection to the narco dollars used to support international terrorism? Why isn’t there outrage on the sources of funding and munitions to the terrorists? Why are you not protesting against the international terrorists who would like nothing better than to blow a dirty bomb in London and kill innocent civilians?
I just don’t understand why you don’t have a balanced and equally disgusted attitude against the terrorists? Your site seems to be anti-establishment?
With my comments above as a premise, I ask you are you tolerant of international terrorism and believe you should not go after them before they get you? Do you really believe that it is wise and prudent to not find them out and destroy them before they destroy you? Do you really believe that the time for outrage will be when suicide bombers start killing innocent UK civilians in Savile Row, Carnaby Street, Piccadilly Circus, Leicester Square, Buckingham Palace, 10 Downing Street, or wherever?
Here’s an anecdote that is intended to have a humorous effect with the reader. I look forward to your response.
Carlos J Melendez
Major U.S. Army (retired)
Paradise (aka sunny south Florida)
Subject: How to deal with idiots....
What to do if you happen upon a peace rally by stupid naive hemp-shirt-wearing college idiots, to teach them why force is sometimes needed:
1) Approach dumb rich ignorant student talking about "peace" and saying there should be, "no retaliation."
2) Engage in brief conversation, ask if military force is appropriate.
3) When he says "No," ask, "Why not?"
4) Wait until he says something to the effect of, "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should not cause more violence."
5) When he's in mid sentence, punch him in the face as hard as you can.
6) When he gets back up to up to punch you, point out that it would be a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you, because that would, "be awful and he should not cause more violence."
7) Wait until he agrees that he has pledged not to commit additional violence.
8) Punch him in the face again, harder this time. Repeat steps 5 through 8 until they understand that sometimes it is necessary to retaliate.
Steve
e-mail:
sruss99@hotmail.com
Wow...
26.01.2004 21:45
So people honestly think this is a warcrime. Look at the video people. That long cylindrical opject is glowing on an infrared camera, which means there is a large degree of heat coming from it. I'm pretty sure irrigation pipes aren't self heating. What's, more, the guy who wrote this seems to know the in's and outs of the Russian RPG-7, the most common RPG system, when he claims the objec tis longer than an RPG. As someone else mentions, the RPG-7 is reloadable, as are most RPG/LAW systems. Even if it is to long to be an RPG-7, it could still be an SA-7, which is basically a Russian version of our Stinger. Hell, it could even be a Stinger. Fact is, these guys are out in a field, in the dark, meeting for no real reason, and hauling around a heated cylindrical object... let me guess, it was just elephant poop from the zoo now...
Akula
Play with fire and you will get burnt
26.09.2004 03:40
These guys had a weapon on a battlefield. The apache had been following the small truck for a long time. They knew the person in it was a bad guy.
As for the US being the bad guy, you are living in a dream world. In the fight for freedom people die.
The US troops are dying for people they are trying to free. People they don’t even know. Imagine giving your life for someone you don’t know. And there the bad guys?
I would love to see what would happen to the rest of the world if the US said fuck you too the world. I would give it 10 years. Indonesia would invade Australia. China would take over Asia and Europe would be invaded by Russia. India and Pakistan would nuke the whole Middle East. South America would be the best place to run.
America keeps this world together, sheds it children’s bloods for the world and all you people do is shit on them.
I know America is not the best and they do fuck up but given the options I will take the US any day of the week.
As for the US being the bad guy, you are living in a dream world. In the fight for freedom people die.
The US troops are dying for people they are trying to free. People they don’t even know. Imagine giving your life for someone you don’t know. And there the bad guys?
I would love to see what would happen to the rest of the world if the US said fuck you too the world. I would give it 10 years. Indonesia would invade Australia. China would take over Asia and Europe would be invaded by Russia. India and Pakistan would nuke the whole Middle East. South America would be the best place to run.
America keeps this world together, sheds it children’s bloods for the world and all you people do is shit on them.
I know America is not the best and they do fuck up but given the options I will take the US any day of the week.
Ben
Comments
Hide 307 hidden comments or hide all comments
War Crime
19.01.2004 09:49
"Theres movement right there-
Roger, He's wounded. HIT HIM"
Tom
is it really a weapon???
19.01.2004 10:59
I'm not. Despite all that read and here it is still shocking to see the obliteration of a human being. I guess this won't run on CNN
chris
Who Cares? Surely not the dead as they are dead.
19.01.2004 11:20
Cynical Chris
mass murder is a speciality
19.01.2004 12:29
wrongdoer
Cowardly Bastards
19.01.2004 14:11
Scapegoat
Vicious murdering bastards
19.01.2004 15:59
I would assume, as this bit of footage is available, that this is one of the less controversial killings.
I'm not surprised the Iraqis don't want them there.
Afinkawan
Them & Us
19.01.2004 20:38
Steve
e-mail:
sruss99@hotmail.com
It's time for direct action
20.01.2004 07:00
You must remember these scumbags are the lifers. We need to do everything to sow division in the ranks and encourage the grunts to start doing some serious fragging.
I hope this type of footage is finding its way to Damascus and Tehran. The Iraqi people need a serious pipeline so they can fight back and defend themselves.
thevoiceofjustice
Terrible
20.01.2004 11:33
Hermes
Sick sick sick
21.01.2004 16:57
A $22million dollar helicopter with a 30mm cannon against what? Unarmed farmers, a tractor a truck and a pick-up.
If we want to Geoff Hoon to resign for no body armour, G W Bush should fry! This is murder pure and simple. No excuses.
Looking at the clock I think the time is 19 hours not 10 hours so it will be dusk. I think the ground would appear lighter if it was daylight because more IR would be reflected.
Judging by the judder of the helicopter just before the bullets strike the car and poor individual on the car, the time difference of just under a second probably means the helicopter is 300-400m away from the scene. I'm trying to find the bullet speed from the
Andy Kennaugh
e-mail:
andyk@fs1.ae.man.ac.uk
addition to "sick sick sick"
21.01.2004 17:05
andy kennaugh
e-mail:
andyk@fs1.ae.man.ac.uk
Don't Pretend to know it all about the battlefield,
21.01.2004 21:31
Kurt Buffenbarger
e-mail:
kurtbuffenbarger@msn.com
Liars! Liars! Liars!
21.01.2004 23:07
Voyeurs unite!! This is sick. Criminal!
SO WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT????
Ross
PLOW THIS
22.01.2004 00:52
GOTTA LOVE IT
RRose
Va.
Rose
Monday morning quarterback meeting
22.01.2004 01:16
Burden O Truth
You need to sides to make a coin...
22.01.2004 03:18
If you were in a million dollar death machine, a prime target for Iraqi rockets, you'd be pretty scared shitless any time you saw something that even looked like a sharp stick in visual range.
I have great respect for life and hope I never have to harm anybody. But if I was in that situation and felt that there was a .01% chance that those Iraqis meant me harm I would of shot them too.
Hesitation on any warriors part can get them killed.
John Farrell
Murder?
22.01.2004 05:06
The Saint
Is the cost of life equal?
22.01.2004 05:44
L. Trousdale
e-mail:
skarkull@yahoo.com
BLAM BLAM BLAM
22.01.2004 11:03
Been nice to see some folding fin aerial rockets being fired at them also.
GB
george
e-mail:
bush@hotmail.com
Come on people.....
22.01.2004 20:27
Back to the subject at hand.....
You are all speculating, and basing your rational on what you CAN'T see.
The Apache witnessed activity with the driver of the truck long before the video we saw began. They followed him to that location, and saw him do something that seemed to confirm their earlier suspicions. Remember, they said they were positive that it was a weapon. They had a reason to believe that, you just weren't able to see what they saw, as we had only the most violent snippit of the video, not the whole story. They weren't there just randomly scoping out a farmer people...
Whether the Apache was in imminant danger or not has nothing to do with their right to engage a target either. If they believe that a person/persons have at any time fired upon their forces, they have a right...no....a DUTY to put that person out of action. To leave a threat active to return another day is equal to treason. They obviously had reason to believe that hostility occurred, and they took the proper and justified course of action. This is what war is people. It is a horrible, ugly, painful thing to witness, but it has been a fact of life since the beginning of time. Without war, there would be no order, and therefore, no real peace.
Marcus
GOOD
23.01.2004 01:31
MIKE
e-mail:
miketempb@netscape.net
There are no War Crimes
23.01.2004 04:10
Dan
Clearly a weapon
23.01.2004 04:56
btowntaz
e-mail:
btowntaz@yahoo.com
Clearly a weapon.
23.01.2004 05:03
Also I would like to point out your editing on the shorter video clearly removes most of the evidence that got those 3 men killed. Great work guys. It's a whole different picture without the evidence. But that was your intention. It's your story, tell it how ever you want! hehe
btowntaz
e-mail:
btowntaz@yahoo.com
indisputable evidence of excessive force use by U.S.
23.01.2004 07:51
the only time it's been done, either...judging by the way it was handled by the order to continue to kill by the unit commander. it'd been entirely different if these people on the ground had been firing weapons at helicopters or ground forces, or absolutely beyond all reason, potentially dangerous. continued use of force like this will guarantee that
all available able bodied and recruitable men in that country will be looking at this and thinking that they shouldn't stop till the last soldier is out of their country. vietnam should have taught that lesson....bombing the ho chi minh trail every night with heavy
bombers didn't negate the eventual loss of the war and retreat by 'vastly superior technologically advanced forces' of the occupier. this will be another repeat of that lesson, I'm afraid
an objector with military background who knows better
to Farrel
23.01.2004 13:02
it's a larger risk than the "01% chance that those Iraqis meant me harm I would of shot them too. " that another car driver would kill you in a car accident...
Or you may kill youre self, if youre smoking....
thats also a larger chance to die of....
go figure
Kjell t. Ringen
Wake up, open your eyes, and engage your brains!
23.01.2004 15:21
1. A meeting in the middle of a field with a small car and a big truck! Some say a farm truck?? Uh, when do farm trucks look like that? Big open bed to carry troops and supplies....
2. The guy looks around quite nervously and grabs a cylindrical type object from the back of a car. Ya, we all keep farm equipment there. And remember, we can only see the thermal imaging view, not like the pilot can see which is normal view. AND, the pilot clearly states that he identifies that "tube" as a weapon. "I got a guy runninig to the field throwing a weapon"... Besides, why haul ass to the filed and throw a piece of farm equipment???? The other guy does the same thing. control: "Are you sure it was a weapon?" pilot: "positive". Verification was asked 3 times. 3 times. Strike 3 you are out.
3. Sure doing a lot of running to and from thier "equipment" they just tossed for just harvesting corn...
4. I don't know what moron is saying the other guy is waving a flag to surrender...! He is desperately uncovering something most likely a weapon, to try and return fire! If you would open your eyes you will notice as the pilot is starting to engage the first person, even before he fires, the other guy by that "equiment or machine" is already taking something out. Is he "waving that flag" surrendering before they are even fired upon? gees...
5. Addressing another moronic statement: (paraphrase) "why would they be doing something illegal when they know a helicopter is nearby?" Uhmmmmm...because they DON"T KNOW! He is probably a mile away or so.
War is hell, but so are some of you idiots!
TOD
It would be useful to view the whole video
23.01.2004 21:24
Also, note the 1900 in the HUD is 1900 meters. That is almost 2 clicks out from the insurgents.
If someone shoots at me, I shoot back!
Seo in aimn!
Liam
Liam Gallagher
of course us is wrong !!!!
23.01.2004 21:52
IT'S war out there !
where this tape comme from ? what if it come from the first gulf war ? were you there to tell the soldier made a error? are you a specialist in thermo reading ? in weapons ? in farm equipment ? for most of us NO.
i agree the gesture of the "target" is not clear but like you said : there is a other part of the video...that "unfortunaltly" we can't see...how clever.
I've learn something important in life: dont judge when you don't know all the facts.
4 canadians soldier have been kill by us bombs in afganisthan...Am 'i mad to the us ? NOPE...do i think this bad accident could have been avoid? yes ... IS it entirely US faults..some canadian officier have probably forget to indicate the canadian position clearly ...i don't know and i don't judge..BUT if it start to happens more often i will start to ask question...
if you bring to justice everyone that had badly behaved in a conflict you would have to trial everybody who participate in any war
by the way look at the news every night, there is a tape that keep on runnimg for years its called : palestinian genocide...and nobody goes in the streets for that...
eric
If they were innocent why didnt they raise their hands after seeing their friend
23.01.2004 22:49
Greg
e-mail:
admin@kcs.2mydns.com
Homepage:
http://www.fhclan.2mydns.com
To all those who support America
24.01.2004 00:54
To those who said that it's war out there, I ask the following: Who started it? If you answer that it's because of terrorism, I remind you that there are terrorists in the US... Does it mean that we should drop bombs there? Don't think so... Oh yeah, it must be because of those never-found-mass-destruction-weapons which Bush always refers to... During his address to the nation, he even said that without HIS intervention, Iraq would still (I just want to mention again that he never found a single weapon) be making mass-destruction weapons. I just can't believe that the american people still support such a liar...
To the funny guy who asked why the farmers didn't raise their hands if they were not guilty... How would you react if you were attacked while working? Would you ever think of raising your hands???? Would you expose yourself when someone you work with has been shot while he wasn't doing anything wrong?
Even if the guy had a weapon... the first person to be shot was walking slowly and wasn't aggressive at all...
Stop saying that this is excessive force, war fact or a crime. This is far beyond this. This is a genocide...
Sébastien
e-mail:
darknightcrow@hotmail.com
No Way
24.01.2004 02:26
Marshall
What debate ?
24.01.2004 03:05
The pilots questioned whether they were to engage.
The response was they would pass this on for a decision.
The question that came back was "do they have these weapons in their hands"
The lie the pilots gave was "yes".
Mark Hamill
Given the recent History of so called Farmers....
24.01.2004 04:27
To all of you who criticize this, put your ass in some fatigues and boots and make a change!
Sergeant First Class Anyone
e-mail:
eskimo7772003@yahoo.com
the second guy killed
24.01.2004 12:03
So, why did the long bag emit heat? And why was the second guy desperately trying to get it out before he was killed? And this is to say nothing of their odd behavior leading up to the attack.
You think it's clear this was a family of innocent farmers? You can argue that the Pilots attacked without being under an immediate threat but don't argue that that's not some sort of a weapon in that bag.
S.A. Smith
Two cents on this unexplainable event
24.01.2004 16:45
I'm in the US military. We are held to a high standard of conduct 99% of the time. A won't say 100, because nothing and no one is perfect. These standards of conduct don't radically change from situation to situation, they've been foundation from the day we became a nation with a fighting force. The American Articles of War from 1775 remained in effect until 1951. These articles of war preceeded our consitution by 10 years. In 1948, the Secretary of Defense appointed a comittee of Civlian and Military Lawyers to construct the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Congress (elected by the people) enacted this into law, and it was signed by Truman in 1951. Also, the Constitution, to this day, is stilla document used in dealing with what is 'right and wrong'.
With that said let me say this: The beginning of the video clearly has dialogue of this apache crew and another. They are talking about something that has taken place, and they are patrolling to the point of where 'whatever it is that happened' is now ending. The truck making it's escape. I'm sure these insurgents in Iraq have a 'PLAN B' as it were. A 'what to do' if you are chased, or followed after making an attack. Maybe the tractor was there to 'pick up' weapons used. Why did the driver and his friend look around as if to see 'who was coming' before running to the field? Lets cut to the chase. These individuals were involved in something. What? The ground troops, and these pilots know, not us, and certainly not from watching this video.
Now, my caveat. Guilt by association is a vague premise, and does not always 'fly with me'. The tractor driver, clearly the first individual shot, just arrived, and could not, in my humble opinion, have been involved in this. I would have agreed with sending ground units in to detain, and question all these individuals while the Apache stood guard. I'm sure the Army, or whomever there did investigate the scene afterward, and knows exactly what the items (that's plural) was taken out of the truck.
Now some of you may say "trying to stradle the fence as to not take sides". No, not at all. I have no problem with what I see, and what transpired. Those individuals in the Apache, the other Apache you can hear at the beginning, and the commander (who by the way was used as a 'checks and balance' for this action) and any ground troops that were involved, followed ROE (Rules of Engagement) for this situation, and if not, will be investigated, and held accountable, if necessary, to that standards I mentioned above.
Like I said, my two cents. But some discression and common sense needs to be applied before making statements like (and I'm paraphrasing) "people in Tehran and Damascus need to see this, and continue their fight against an oppressive, and tyrannical force". No, that needs to NOT happen. This whole thing needs to be settled down, so our pilots and troops over there, don't have to make these decisions to keep our troops safe and from harms way. Whatever god, if any, you believe in, needs to hear your prayers for the right decisions to be made, and for all of this hostility to end, and for the people of Iraq, and that region, to find peace, and democracy. The same democracy that affords you the right to 'vent, bitch, complain, whatever' about what you saw.
John
Good
24.01.2004 19:18
Joe Merchant
Justified Shooting??
25.01.2004 01:01
1 .. He who is in battle zone and is deemed hostile is usually fired upon until destroyed.
2 .. He who looks suspicious and is deemed hostile is fired upon until destroyed.
3 .. Friendly fire .. Isn't
4 .. These guys demonstrate that it really sucks to be a "bullet sponge".
Now for all you "conscientious observers" out there, listen well .. when your a$$ is being shot at and the only way to defend your a$$ is to shoot back, then you use the technology that you have and lock and load and commence firing; cause baby, this ones gonna hurt for a long, long time (well, ok, just a short time for those guys).
Ski (with a nick like that I'd have to be from the USA)
Ski
Don't Speculate on Things You Know Little About
26.01.2004 05:39
Maybe the Apache crew made a mistake. But knowing what goes on behind the scenes makes me lean towards the "not likely" side. The Army pilots are well trained. They operate with a certain degree of autonomy (to avoid the rigid Soviet-style of warfare that made their tactics cumbersome), but they also operate with a high level of rules, regulations and other things outlined in an Air Tasking Order. And despite what some have made us out to be, we're not flat-topped muscle-bound ego-maniac thugs that don't have a brain. Top Gun is fiction, ok?
Another point I want to bring up...many of you claim to support "democracy" and "liberty", yet I get the feeling that if you had anything to do with it, you'd have this Apache crew swinging from a noose at The Hague just based on this extrapolated, speculative short video byte. Tractor? Maybe...but what if it was? Many of the Fedayeen got around town on whatever they could commandeer....be it a tractor, car or pickup truck. Then there's the issue of plowing for mines, as is done often. The USA has plows attached to their M1 tanks to blow up mines and IEDs before it hits the tank. Maybe the Fedeyeen guys aren't as sophisticated and are just using a tractor.
The fact is you're basing your arguement that the folks hit by the Apache's gun are "farmers" because they are walking in and around a tractor and a truck. So what? What you don't know is what happened before the video. Maybe the Apache saw those guys engaging our troops with rifles. The fact is, YOU DON'T KNOW. Yet those guys are guilty before being found innocent, here on good ole Indymedia, home of truth, justice and fairness.
Thirdly, you question the morality of hitting those guys with 30MM. If that's the case, then every fighter pilot in WWII is guilty of a war crime for strafing Nazi or Japanese troops on the beaches of Iwo Jima or the plains of France. And does it matter if we hit those guys with 30MM or blow up the vehicles with an AGM-114 Hellfire missile? Either way, they will die and it will be messy.
Finally, someone mentioned the "G" word...genocide. While I was in Iraq, we were chasing the bad guys with RPGs, but not going door-to-door executing everyday Iraqis. In fact, in much of Iraq, they weren't anti-American. Sure, some wanted us gone, but they admit they were glad we got Saddam. And others still want us to stay so their country won't fall into some Iranian-like theocracy. Truth be told, the guys at Talil air base near Nasariyah were being invited by local families for dinner! They did so for a while, until the local commander deemed it perhaps a bit too risky given the security situation. Risky for the soldiers as well as the Iraqis.
Genocide indeed....if that was our goal, there'd be stacks of bodies all over the country by now. I'm not advocating that people shouldn't give the government a discerning eye, but this destructive jeering is a bit over the top. Certainly your right to do so, but it's also my right to voice the opinion that it's a bit callous to Monday-morning quaterback a very short video when you know little or nothing about being an Apache pilot or a battlefield commander.
Chris
e-mail:
t1ajayhawkpilot@yahoo.com
I hate to tell you!
26.01.2004 11:27
I am taking it you have never served in any military...am I right? If you did you would have known.
How do you fight and enemy the uses women, children, and holy places as shields? But dont tell me...you are going to tell me that despite the over 300,000 confirmed Iraqis slaughtered by Hussain that we had no business going there. That a man that tried to build the worlds largest cannon just so he could hit Isreal..that a man who is personnally responsible for more Arab deaths than anyone in recorded history..that his should still be in power...right???
Ron
e-mail:
ron_n_42@yahoo.com
Look closer...
26.01.2004 20:40
Boxman
And whats more
26.01.2004 21:59
Akula
Anti-War Brits
26.01.2004 23:50
Mutton
Terrorist Supporter
27.01.2004 02:33
1. The body language displayed is that of persons who are trying to hide what they are doing -- the looking around, running back and forth, etc.
2. The "pipes" are in a what appears to be a weapons bag, such as the ones I have seen used to carry RPGs and other weapons.
3. The field is only a couple of hundred meters from the base that my son is stationed at. He reports that it is not unusual for the terrorists to drop weapons in a field for later use. It is a little obvious to drive a vehicle up to an area, get out and set a weapon up, and then fire it. What they normally do is drop the weapon off for someone else to sneak up and fire that night.
4. The tractor is cold, like you state, the image is thermal, and there is absolutely NO residual heat on the tractor.
5. So you believe we should wait for them to fire before we fire back? The Apache is not under attack, it is a hunter out to get the vermin before they strike.
Cowards and terrorist sympathizers like you are what is sapping the strength of this country.
James Lewis
e-mail:
lbcdos@juno.com
Fueling anti-Americanism
27.01.2004 03:46
Those people whose oppinion count are the millions of Muslims and Arabs who are sitting on the fence and this issue and who are also watching this video as we chat about it. They also watched the CNN video about the marines finishing an wounded Iraqi off with their M-16s and telling on camera how awsome that felt. Do you think these Arabs and Muslims buy the RPG version at face value ? I dont. Those who think otherwise probably cheered when Georged W. said "Bring Em on!" Well bring em on boys.
Gilles
You people find anything to protest about
27.01.2004 06:20
This is for you Anti-War/Anti-US hippies
Have you ever been to a combat zone? Have you ever had anyone try to kill you? Have you ever seen your friends shot, killed or blown away by an RPG (and for you pacifists thats ROCKET PROPELLED GRANADE)? I kinda doubt it. You can critize my country all you want, but if you saw something suspious, like a couple of guys trading an RPG sized looking object, and you thought that these guys had the intent of killing soldiers, I'm willing to bet that you would take them down as well.
War is hell. I didn't want to see my country in it, but know that we are, I will support the soldiers that we have there. Hey, if any of you Brits had a Grand-father that was in the World War II, ask them what they would have done under the circumstances.
Think about what would have happened to your country had the United States not intervened. Chances are you would not have the many of the liberties that you have today. Think about what would have happened to you if you spoke out against the occupying force (in your case the NAZIS, you remember them don't you?). Chances are that they would know who you are and where you live. They hear that you said something about them that was not in thier favor. The Gestapo show up at your door, take you away, beat you until you beg for death, then shoot you in the head. Doesn't sound fun does it? Now, two years ago in Iraq, the situation was VERY similiar. Thousands of people disappeared (murdered by Saddam) over the years. What do you call him? If it wasn't for the United States, all of you would be living under a facist flag.
I don't see many of you people ragging on Saddam. Were there WMDs? I really doubt it. Was this about oil? maybe. Should Saddam have stayed in power to kill thousands of civilians brcause they didn't like him? HELL NO. Saddam was no Hitler or Stalin, but those were his idols which kinda makes him a sick twisted bastard that needed to be removed.
Could the Gunship have made mistake? maybe. Would I have done the same thing in his shoes? Yes. But did you ever think that they might have been planting a bomb along a roadside that was meant to kill Allied Soldiers? I really doubt it. You people are seeing things at face value. If you were there, you would be thinking are these guys farmers that like to work at night or are these guys planning on killing some of my friends tomorrow. When you have a situation like that, what are you going to do? Wait for them to shoot at you or are you gonna give them a chance.
The overwhelming majority of Iraqis are happy to have the US there and are finally free to live thier lives they way they want to. The rules of engagement are there for a reason, and if you LISTEN to the longer version of the take you hear the pilots ask THREE (3) times for permission to fire. Soldiers don't take things lightly. This is why the ALLIES (including Great Britian) are taking casualties, because the rules of engagement say they aren't permit to fire unless fired upon, by which time its to late. Ask your grandpa what he would have done if he saw a few Germans smoking cigerettes while hanging around a Machine Gun. I'm willing to bet he, and all those with him would have shot first and asked questions later.
In short, you don't know what your talking about you stupid ANTI-Everything Hippies. Go Join the Army and learn what the real world is like you hypocrites.
GO USA!
Curt
USA, Defender of Freedom and Democracy
27.01.2004 09:26
Now that Gaddafi is back in line, obeying orders, all his brutality and all his crimes will be forgotten about, and he'll start being an "ally in the war on terror", just like the vicious bastard dictator Karimov who runs Uzbekistan. Karimov likes to boil his critics alive. No problem for the Good Ol' USA though, so long as he obeys orders and keeps the pipeline running trouble-free. Business as usual for Bush and the rest of the men who run many profitable defense and oil interests.
A fine legacy for the son of Bush Senior, and the grandson of Prescott Bush, who built the Bush family fortune by trading with the Nazis before and during WWII. So hearing about how the US "saved Britain from fascism" because they're all such nice guys makes me want to projectile vomit. The American people did not want to enter the war, and had to be dragged in by the govt at a very late stage when the US saw the economic opportunity of dominating Europe for the next several decades.
Read more about the fine work the USA is doing in Iraq, "fighting terrorism" from the air:
Ian
Who is a civilian?
27.01.2004 15:36
According to Webster on line dictionary, a civilian is defined as "one not on active duty in a military, police, or fire-fighting force". However, as soon as that person engages in any activity that involves weapons, munitions, tactics, etc., that person becomes "active duty". It should be obvious the "tractor driver" is well aware of what was going on at that time.
As for wounded being fired upon....I think the scope of that definition is a bit more complicated than simply "wounded can't be fired on". If that wounded individual is still a threat (broad statement), then he is fair game. If that wounded person was left to survive and no one was sent down to capture him (which I don't think was in the plans), then he is still a threat.
Tell me something, is it pure ignorance and stupidity or just foolish blindness that causes some of you to make these obscene statements? Or...could it be that we have some of the forces of Iraq posting on here to try and help their cause???
TOD
TOD
Shooting wounded combatants
27.01.2004 17:28
Read and try to understand the Geneva Convention's provisions for the wounded:
TOD also says:
"Tell me something, is it pure ignorance and stupidity or just foolish blindness that causes some of you to make these obscene statements? Or...could it be that we have some of the forces of Iraq posting on here to try and help their cause???"
If we don't agree with your rather unusual interpretation of the Geneva Convention, we're ignorant? Foolish? Blind? Obscene? Forces of Iraq?
Nobody buys that "if you criticise any actions of the US military, you're on the side of Saddam" horseshit anymore, TOD.
Ian
Leak against this war
27.01.2004 18:59
They had lain there, letting us four pass so as to get a better shot at the main body of troops. We couldn't fire at them, because we would have been firing into our own platoon. But a lot of its fire came back right at us. Dropping to the ground, I watched this kid firing away for 10 seconds, till he disappeared with his buddies into the rice. After a minute the platoon ceased fire in our direction and we got up and moved on.
About an hour later, the same thing happened again; this time I only saw a glimpse of a black jersey through the rice. I was very impressed, not only by their tactics but by their performance.
One thing was clear: these were local boys. They had the advantage of knowing every ditch and dyke, every tree and blade of rice and piece of cover, like it was their own backyard. Because it was their backyard. No doubt (I thought later) that was why they had the nerve to pop up in the midst of a reinforced battalion and fire away with American troops on all sides. They thought they were shooting at trespassers, occupiers, that they had a right to be there and we didn't. This would have been a good moment to ask myself if they were wrong, and if we had a good enough reason to be in their backyard to be fired at.
Later that afternoon, I turned to the radio man, a wiry African American kid who looked too thin to be lugging his 75lb radio, and asked: "By any chance, do you ever feel like the redcoats?"
Without missing a beat he said, in a drawl: "I've been thinking that ... all ... day." You couldn't miss the comparison if you'd gone to grade school in America. Foreign troops far from home, wearing helmets and uniforms and carrying heavy equipment, getting shot at every half-hour by non-uniformed irregulars near their own homes, blending into the local population after each attack.
I can't help but remember that afternoon as I read about US and British patrols meeting rockets and mines without warning in the cities of Iraq. As we faced ambush after ambush in the countryside, we passed villagers who could have told us we were about to be attacked. Why didn't they? First, there was a good chance their friends and family members were the ones doing the attacking. Second, we were widely seen by the local population not as allies or protectors - as we preferred to imagine - but as foreign occupiers. Helping us would have been seen as collaboration, unpatriotic. Third, they knew that to collaborate was to be in danger from the resistance, and that the foreigners' ability to protect them was negligible.
There could not be a more exact parallel between this situation and Iraq. Our troops in Iraq keep walking into attacks in the course of patrols apparently designed to provide "security" for civilians who, mysteriously, do not appear the slightest bit inclined to warn us of these attacks. This situation - as in Vietnam - is a harbinger of endless bloodletting. I believe American and British soldiers will be dying, and killing, in that country as long as they remain there.
As more and more US and British families lose loved ones in Iraq - killed while ostensibly protecting a population that does not appear to want them there - they will begin to ask: "How did we get into this mess, and why are we still in it?" And the answers they find will be disturbingly similar to those the American public found for Vietnam.
I served three US presidents - Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon - who lied repeatedly and blatantly about our reasons for entering Vietnam, and the risks in our staying there. For the past year, I have found myself in the horrifying position of watching history repeat itself. I believe that George Bush and Tony Blair lied - and continue to lie - as blatantly about their reasons for entering Iraq and the prospects for the invasion and occupation as the presidents I served did about Vietnam.
By the time I released to the press in 1971 what became known as the Pentagon Papers - 7,000 pages of top-secret documents demonstrating that virtually everything four American presidents had told the public about our involvement in Vietnam was false - I had known that pattern as an insider for years, and I knew that a fifth president, Richard Nixon, was following in their footsteps. In the fall of 2002, I hoped that officials in Washington and London who knew that our countries were being lied into an illegal, bloody war and occupation would consider doing what I wish I had done in 1964 or 1965, years before I did, before the bombs started to fall: expose these lies, with documents.
I can only admire the more timely, courageous action of Katherine Gun, the GCHQ translator who risked her career and freedom to expose an illegal plan to win official and public support for an illegal war, before that war had started. Her revelation of a classified document urging British intelligence to help the US bug the phones of all the members of the UN security council to manipulate their votes on the war may have been critical in denying the invasion a false cloak of legitimacy. That did not prevent the aggression, but it was reasonable for her to hope that her country would not choose to act as an outlaw, thereby saving lives. She did what she could, in time for it to make a difference, as indeed others should have done, and still can.
I have no doubt that there are thousands of pages of documents in safes in London and Washington right now - the Pentagon Papers of Iraq - whose unauthorised revelation would drastically alter the public discourse on whether we should continue sending our children to die in Iraq. That's clear from what has already come out through unauthorised disclosures from many anonymous sources and from officials and former officials such as David Kelly and US ambassador Joseph Wilson, who revealed the falsity of reports that Iraq had pursued uranium from Niger, which President Bush none the less cited as endorsed by British intelligence in his state of the union address before the war. Both Downing Street and the White House organised covert pressure to punish these leakers and to deter others, in Dr Kelly's case with tragic results.
Those who reveal documents on the scale necessary to return foreign policy to democratic control risk prosecution and prison sentences, as Katherine Gun is now facing. I faced 12 felony counts and a possible sentence of 115 years; the charges were dismissed when it was discovered that White House actions aimed at stopping further revelations of administration lying had included criminal actions against me.
Exposing governmental lies carries a heavy personal risk, even in our democracies. But that risk can be worthwhile when a war's-worth of lives is at stake.
Daniel Ellsberg
It is Clear that ...... Bullshit How do you Know
28.01.2004 02:49
Pedro
Pedro Alahandra
Stand up for the US or go away
28.01.2004 04:24
2. If you do not like how things are done here in the US go away there are plenty of other countries that you could move to. Go live there and be happy but quit being antiamerican. My brother, uncles, father, grandfathers and so on have defended this country for years and that makes me proud. People die in war and that is a shame but is part of war. We did not start this war but we will finish this war. I am ashamed to see soo many people defending what the Iraqi's did and have done and will do but point fingers and cast stones at the many men and women out there serving their country and risking their lives for the likes of you. Shame on you.
Melinda
Melinda
Stunning US ignorance
28.01.2004 10:39
"Did we forget that these people came into our country and attacked us killing thousands on 9/11! We are only defending our country and its people."
Don't be ridiculous. The US was attacked by Saudis, not Iraqis. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and there's not a shred of evidence linking Iraq to it. You're not defending anyone, you're attacking.
"If you do not like how things are done here in the US go away there are plenty of other countries that you could move to. Go live there and be happy but quit being antiamerican.
LOL! You do realise you're posting to the Indymedia UK website, right? And you do realise that the United Kingdom is not in the United States, right? Crack open an atlas sometime: see, there it is, other side of the ocean. We learn something new every day, eh. :)
Shame on you, for your willful ignorance. And your president is no better: he thinks Wales is somewhere in North America, the pitiful simp.
TOD writes:
"How do you know with 100% certainty he is not a threat?"
And how do you know with 100% certainty that he is a threat? Innocent until proven guilty, so long as the accused is a white American. Guilty until proven innocent, if he's not.
"I never made a statement that even slightly suggests that 'if you don't side with the US, you are with Saddam'"
Go back and read what you wrote, sonny: "Or...could it be that we have some of the forces of Iraq posting on here to try and help their cause???"
Ian
God and the Marines
28.01.2004 17:45
Ski
Incredible Vision
28.01.2004 20:11
I just wanted to put my two cents in to add how amused I was to read this authors account of his experience while he was aboard the apache that did the killing. In reading, it was "clear" to me that he must have been aboard because he states that:
"it is clear that the Apache helicopter is not ....."
"it is clear that they themselves do not feel ...."
The author then goes on to suggest "three alternative explanations" for the scenario.
Wow - only 3 possibilities. Oh, I forgot - since you were on board that very helicopter, you would have KNOWN that there could have been NO OTHER possibilities.
Like perhaps it was dark - that they could MAYBE hear but not see the apache. I dont know the range of 30 mm cannons, but its entirely possible that the helicopter was too far away for the "threats" to even know they were under surveillance.
You assume too much and paint an amusing picture. I am quite amazed what you were able to "clearly" see from a one to two inch square compressed video file. Not only was the captured video feed grainy, it was black and white and a thermal image as well. But alas, lest I forget again - you were ON BOARD the apache.
You could have quite a talent in writing fiction - you have a vivid imagination.
MAJ
Can TOD please explain...
28.01.2004 20:31
It's interesting that you think ignoring the Geneva Convention and shooting wounded, immobile, suspected combatants is funny.
I guess you must think this is pretty funny too then:
Ian
God Help The USA
28.01.2004 22:04
TOD
Incredible Ass-kicking
28.01.2004 22:09
MAJ
Certainly.
28.01.2004 22:15
Ian
Bundles of tools and pipes don't glow on infra red
29.01.2004 01:28
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. That the object is a bundle of long handled farm tools being taken over to where the farmers are working with the tractor.
2. That the object is a bundle of thin poles to be driven into the ground ahead of the tractor to give the tractor driver a visible guide to keep the furrows straight.
3. As suggested by a reader, that the object may be part of the plastic pipe irrigation system used in dry climate agriculture.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keep in mind, that we're viewing this through FLIR- forward looking infra-red. That "bundle of tools" is glowing awfully hot for a bunch of tools.
Why move a spent RPG? So that the spot you fired from isn't easily discovered, so you can use it again.
Is the Apache being directly threatened? Negatory. The article goes on about how the people on the ground see no reason not to be alarmed by an Apache. Look at the range, at the bottom of the screen. They didn't know the Apache is there. Many of our helicopters have some special rotor that keeps the quiet. The technology was first seen on Blackhawks that were converted for SpecOps use- Night Stalkers, I believe they were redubbed. Can't hear it like you'd hear a normal chopper.
The Apache not taking evasive maneuvers- why bother if they don't know you're there.
And that's my take.
Dave
This video isn't probably showing night scene
29.01.2004 04:49
I think more human way of solving this situation was fire warning salvo, destroy "weapon" with gun and report those suspicious guys to ground forces.
Gunner of Apache is now just a murderer, doesn't matter it was an order. He killed 3 unarmed guys (including one wounded). Somebody said here it was just few hundred meters from base where his san was... if it's true, there was possibility to send ground forces to solve this situation. Only thing was happend is, now there are three Iraqi families wich wants their wendetta on US troops. So they maybe killed 3 possible terrorist (i doubt about it) and got 3 famillies of potentional terrorists. Story about "Uncle Sallah" killed on his tractor in middle of work by US helicopter will be probably soon very well know all around his village/city and for sure will not help US troops solve situation in Iraq.
Araon
Araon
e-mail:
araon@volny.cz
This video does NOT show a war crime
29.01.2004 14:16
Rob Jones
Dudley
29.01.2004 17:31
The real problem with that video is there is not more of it to show that finally the world has had enough of radical uneducated filthy pigs! Wake up, the protocols of Zion are myth, you have been mislead by your clearics out of fear and ignorance to wrongfully attack christians and jews. The protocols were invented by the Russian Zsar in 1896 as propaganda. Islam holds onto untruth and uses it as a means to fuel war with the gain of conquering the world. If you are truly a peace loving people, then live in peace, stop strapping C4 on your backs and killing innocent people. I know your argument, Israel is doing the same, well, yes they are. It is all the Muslim understands, an eye for an eye. It wasn't murder, it was a killing!
You people sicken me with your ignorant comments, hiding under a blanket of freedoms granted only because the US fought the unpopular fight and continue to do so. Perhaps Europeans would rather be cooked in stoves by Nazis or entire families killed by Communists just for being around. It's funny how Brits can comdemn anything after attempting to rule the world by creating an empire, I'm sure the middle east, asia, and africa have something to say about that. As for the ignorant bastard who tried to pun the name of the helicopter as ironic. You're just as stupid as the rest. The United States is not proud of it's past with respect to the attrocities committed against native americans, a terrible mistake that can never be undone. The Apache helicopter is named to honor the legacy of the Apache tribes of the South West who fought bravely, were feared, and revered as warriors, tactians, and great peoples.
Doright
Dudley
29.01.2004 17:37
Doright
America and "the unpopular fight"
29.01.2004 17:57
Here are just a few of the unpopular fights that America has fought in the past few decades:
- Invading Vietnam, killing and maiming millions of innocent Vietnamese, getting their arses kicked out, then eventually going back and becoming happy business partners with the same Terrible Awful Communists
- Secretly bombing Cambodia while pretending to conduct peace talks
- Supporting the Contra terrorists in Nicaragua, against a popularly elected government, and mining Managua harbour
- Bringing Saddam to power, arming him to attack Iran, and giving him bioweapons and other WMD technology to help him out
- leaving Saddam in power after the first Gulf war, and helping him wipe out the Shia uprising that could have brought him down
- invading Grenada, that mighty threat to US security
- invading Panama, and arresting the dictator that they put in power there
- arming and supporting the Indonesians in wiping out a third of the population of East Timor
- helping General Pinochet stage a coup in Chile, to throw out a democratically elected government they didn't like, and look the other way when millions of civilians were tortured, killed or disappeared
- trying last year to help start a coup in Venezuela (unsuccesfully this time) against another democratically elected government they don't like
- deliberately bombing civilian infrastructure in Iraq and Yugoslavia, including TV stations, Red Cross buildings, and water & sewage facilities, so civilians would die horribly of typhoid etc.
- dropping a cruise missile on a pharmaceutical factory in Sudan
- arming and supporting brutal dictatorships in Saudi, Kuwait and Uzbekistan
- granting Most Favoured Nation trading status to China
God, there are just too many examples to name: Paraguay, Colombia, Salvador, Morocco, Guatemala, Haiti, Uruguay, Pakistan, Bolivia, Peru, Congo, Ecuador, Cambodia...
And of course there is plenty that could be done to undo the "terrible mistake" of genocide that the US committed against the Apaches and other native Americans. It would just be too expensive. Just like honouring the Kyoto agreement that they signed, and then weaselled out of: yes it would be the right thing, but it's just too expensive, so fuck all the other countries that signed.
I just don't understand: why do so may people around the world hate America, after all it's done for them?
Steve
Terrorists get the Geneva convention?
29.01.2004 22:18
Ohio Supporter
Everything is okay...
29.01.2004 23:05
At least that's what I saw in the video...
john
To all the liberal Brits.
30.01.2004 01:45
Angry American
ONE STEP FORWARD AND TWO STEPS BACK
30.01.2004 03:36
Cold Gin
You cannot Judge what you dont know
30.01.2004 08:25
Its disgust me that you can even make a comment as harsh as that based on a short video clip. How can you justify that? You have it so set in your minds that all we do is kill for no reason you dont even stop to think about what surrounds the clips and reports the media shoves in your face everyday.
If anyone who thinks this was a war crime can show me hard evidence that these were not a valid "enemy" or "target of oppertunity" please email me and show me your evidence.
I can obviously see (as should everyone else that has seen the long version) that these men are conducting some sort of suspicious accitivity. Who looks around nervously before removing a farm tool from their truck? Who hears the sound of a 30mm Chain Gun going off and not get scared shittless and begin to wonder where it came from? Notice how when the first few shots that were off target are fired they began to scurry around (note: scurry not run and hide for their lives). Dont you think if you heard gun fire and were innocent you would run for the nearest thing to hide behind? Not walk across the field slowly as the first target did!
I am not saying for sure that these people deserved to be engaged but in my best assumption I would assume they did. Then again I do not have the whole story and neither do any of you who cry "WAR CRIMES"
If you dont like what our millitary does for us, move to Canada.
SOD
e-mail:
sodonnell@primary.net
Rights and Freedoms
30.01.2004 09:35
My brother is in the military. He fought in Kurdish Iraq, helping out with the Yank invasion as he was ordered, and was disgusted by what he saw: the goal every step of the way was to secure the oilfields, secure the bank vaults, and to hell with the locals, to hell with everything but the treasure. Innocent people were were getting shot every day right in front of him, by trigger-happy boys from Iowa.
"Our" military isn't "defending our rights and freedoms", it's invading a country to grab the oil. These men were either civilians, or irregulars fighting foreign troops on their own soil. The only "rights and freedoms" that you'll have defended here is the "right and freedom" for Yanks to cart their fat arses around in their SUVs. Proven oil reserves are running out, and the US is staving off the inevitable by taking control of the oil fields. If Saddam had been more obedient, he would still be in power today, same as Gadaffi, same as the Saudis, etc.
You Yanks are the real threat to OUR rights and freedoms.
Jeff
Judge, Jury and Executioner
30.01.2004 09:41
You think you can call anyone you like a "terrorist", so you can do whatever the fuck you please to them? Why do you think most people outside of the US see George Bush as the biggest threat to world peace?
You think you're any safer from REAL terrorism now that you've caught Saddam, who had nothing at all to do with 9/11? Don't be so bloody gullible.
Mike
You still cant answer the ?'s
30.01.2004 13:50
Sorry for the mistake but obviously those comments were directed towards any americans who make these claims. But once again noone has given any proof as to wether these were "farmers" or "irregulars". How do you not know they are part of the once Iraqi army? And possibly part of the main orginization who is still running ambushes, car bombings ect... You dont do you.
And I also have someone close who fought over there (cousin) and this is the way he put it to me, "When there are 2 guys shooting at us in a crowd of innocents what are we supposed to do? Wait till they move or kill us? NO! We take out shot and avoid casulaties." Every attempts is made to avoid casulaties but when you have a force that uses their OWN WOMEN AND CHILDREN as human shields what are you supposed to do but take the best shot you can as quickly as possible. Are these Iraquis themselves not breaking the Geniva Converntion by using Gurilla Warfare? Yup I believe they are.
Civilian deaths are inevetible in war and regardles of how many civilians may have died in this conflict think of the thousands more that their OWN COUNTRY tortured and executed.
Our objective was to move in remove sadam and protect the resources from events like the Gulf War where once again the enemy destroyed their own land by Igniting oil fires which we took upon ourselves to put out.
As for your comment about SUV's and such maybe you havent kept up on the improvements in Hybrid technology, Hydrogen Fuels and such. I am not saying that Bush had other adjendas for oil, ect.... But WE (the US and British) took it upon ourselves to remove a very dangerous man. A man that killed his own people, straved his own people, Funded terrorism, disobeyed orders from the United Nations, and so on......
If he was still in power he would still be killing his own people. And who is in there now rebuilding the country, updating their telecomunications, roads, public services.... think about it...
And if you can ever show me proof of this so called "Farmer" "Innocent" Bullcrap theory I would like to know.
Shawn
All about oil?
30.01.2004 15:50
Warcrime? Murderers? None of us were there so we don't know the full story. And don't you think it's possible that the pilots could see better than we can on an mpeg or avi? The Apache followed that truck, as you can see in the beginning of the bigger video. Don't you think they were following it for a reason?
Adam
Knowing and Not Knowing
30.01.2004 17:23
The objective of the war was not to remove Saddam, it was to stop the "imminent threat" from WMD. The "humanitarian war" excuse was brought in some time later, when no imminent threat was found.
Hybrid technology is great, but it makes up a tiny percentage of cars on the road in the US. The US uses a quarter of the world's energy! SUVs are only one part of the collosal wastage going on there. Life for most people in the US is shockingly wasteful on a daily basis: I know this because I lived there for many years. Sometimes it's not the fault of the person doing the wasting, it's the fault of a city planner. But the whole rest of the world is paying the price of the US addiction to oil.
You wrote:
". But WE (the US and British) took it upon ourselves to remove a very dangerous man. A man that killed his own people, straved his own people, Funded terrorism, disobeyed orders from the United Nations, and so on...... If he was still in power he would still be killing his own people."
All the "evidence" that Saddam funded terrorism has so far been proven false. Yes he was a terrible man, but so is Gaddafi, who really DID fund terrorism, and so is Karimov the dictator of Uzbekistan as noted above. If the US is so anti-dictator, why is the White House calling men like Karimov and the Sauds "allies"? Why are they letting Gadaffi off the hook? When the British ambassador to Uzbekistan publicly criticised Karimov, the US and British govts tried to get him sacked. He's just been re-instated.
If the US cares so much about disobedience to the UN, why do they not insist on the same treatment for Israel, which regularly breaks one UN resolution after another? Why did they ignore the Security Council vote? They don't give a toss about the UN, unless someone they don't like is in breach.
And why did the US put Saddam into power, happily do business with him while he was nerve-gassing his own people, etc., then suddenly turn around in 1997 and say he had to go? Have a read of this:
The answer is that the whole "Saddam bad, must remove" slogan is a convenient hook to hang the war effort on. It's crass hypocrisy.
You also wrote:
"And who is in there now rebuilding the country, updating their telecomunications, roads, public services.... think about it... "
Yes, I think about that a lot. Who do you think is paying for that rebuilding? The US taxpayer? Some US charity? No, the Iraqi people are paying Haliburton, Bechtel and other US mega-corps to clean up the damage the US did. It reminds me of the Chinese charging the families for the bullets they use in executions. It's sickening.
As for "proving" the man was a farmer, no of course not, and neither can you prove that he was a combatant. They didn't give a goddamn about being sure, they just applied the logic of "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out".
Jeff
Explained: Flaw in your logic
30.01.2004 18:42
Your article poses the question:
>>>one cannot explain why someone who had just fired off an RPG at US troops would bother to put the used launcher into his car, only to them drive someplace else and then discard it.
RPG Rocket Launchers are reusable - just like a rifle is reusable. You simply reload another rocket and get ready to use it again...So I guess that explains it and answers your begging question in full.
Only to drive someplace else and then (what)??? would have been more accurately written as drive someplace else, reload with a fresh grenade...and get ready to attack the next target.
This guys are dead - they don't understand that if you pick a fight with Americans, you better have a big set of balls to realize what you're dealing with. Jihad comes from New Jersey and Allah is death from above made by Lockheed.
Mr. Anonymous
SAVEING ALLIED LIVES
31.01.2004 00:53
PAUL
Welcome to reality !
31.01.2004 01:39
Marty
Go USA!
31.01.2004 03:40
We've invaded their country, and they're fighting back. So Go, USA! Go home NOW!
Brett
Death from above
31.01.2004 04:22
That's right pal: death from above, smashing into New York. And we'll all remember how big America's balls are, when you come whining and weeping to us for sympathy again, the next time some of your own civilians are killed.
Jon
Not Waving a Flag
31.01.2004 04:32
Josh
Josh
Like Britain Has A Clean Record...
31.01.2004 04:51
And Isreal..aren't they "your" problem Mr. Leftist Englishman? Didn't England lead the way for granting the Jews their own land back in 1948? Gee, if your country didn't spearhead that movement, maybe we would have Jews and Palestinians killing each other.
Doesn't England consume oil? If you are so concerned about world reserves, walk the talk. Give up your car, motorcycle, heat, etc...in fact, get rid of ALL petroleum based products..come on! Set and example for the greedy Americans...lead the way Mr. Englishman!
Hey, in a screwed up world, you gotta watch your back and look out for the interests of your country....only when Christ returns will all this crap get sorted out....
Oh, and I love the fact that nobody ever remembers the humanitarian part of Bush's speech to justify war on Iraq....it's not only about WMD and oil....and how in the world could the UN and dozens of other countries be under the same delusion that Saddam did have these weapons? I am glad the U.S. had the balls to put the issue to rest....
Let the bodies hit the floor.....
Citizen Kane
Shooting the wounded
31.01.2004 05:11
One enemy soldier has been shot, and falls to the ground. He rolls out from under the truck, one of the pilots says, "He's wounded." The other pilot says, "Hit him," and the Apache opens fire again, killing him.
Should the injured soldier be considered an open opportunity for some target practise simply because he's making no attempt to crawl away? He could be shot through the spine, helpless, completely paralyzed, but since he's conscious it's OK to put a couple more rounds in him
I remember seeing grainy black & whites of Waffen SS shooting wounded allied soldiers during WWII. They reasoned that every dead allied soldier was one less potential threat. The Nuremberg trials saw the matter differently.
The US pilot who shot the wounded Iraqi man should be tried for a war crime: we have a film of the crime being committed.
The Geneva Convention says in Article 12:
"Members of the armed forces and other persons mentioned in the following Article, who are at sea and who are wounded, sick or shipwrecked, shall be respected and protected in all circumstances...
Such persons shall be treated humanely and cared for by the Parties to the conflict in whose power they may be, without any adverse distinction founded on sex, race, nationality, religion, political opinions, or any other similar criteria. Any attempts upon their lives, or violence to their persons, shall be strictly prohibited; in particular, they shall not be murdered or exterminated, subjected to torture or to biological experiments; they shall not wilfully be left without medical assistance and care, nor shall conditions exposing them to contagion or infection be created. "
and: "The wounded, sick and shipwrecked shall be collected and cared for."
and: "Reprisals against the wounded, sick and shipwrecked persons, the personnel, the vessels or the equipment protected by the Convention are prohibited."
Tom
The wounded guy...
31.01.2004 05:14
Alessandro Sojack
US Marines love to shoot the wounded
31.01.2004 09:00
"It was a good feeling... hell yes, that was awesome, let's do it again."
Bill Parkin
Not a war crime folks
31.01.2004 09:41
Once again how do you know this?????? How do you not know that there was other intelegence about this? And as for the Genevia Convention read this.....
"(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions: (a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms openly; (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war."
and I stress "(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms openly". Humm guess they wernt following those rules were they...
Or how about this one.... "(6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly"
If these rules are not followed then that person is NOT to be considered a Prisoner of War...
If you don't wear a uniform or display your weapons during an engagement, whether offensive or defensive, then you are engaging in perfidious acts and lose the protection of the Geneva conventions. Obviously these men were transporting Weapons to be used against the Coalition.
As for the wounded one.... we dont know how badly he was hit, what were they to do? Turn around so he could cawl over to the truck and pick up a RPG and fire back? Sure getting ground troops in would have been ideal but depending on the location that may have not been possible.
Remeber we are talking about the same people who durring the war have regulary set up camp in schools and civilian homes.
Sure we went in to remove WMD's but its not like Sadam was a saint..... by any means he has been an invader and a terrorist for way to long and now he is no longer in power or able to SLAUGHTER his own people.
Trust me I too wish the US would keep their noses out of other countrys business and try not to police the world.... then again I guess you would be where you are right now if it wasnt for Americas help. For every war we are in we are sending aid to 100 more places..
SOD
US loves to shoot the wounded huh?
31.01.2004 09:43
SOD
Don't repeat Britain's mistakes
31.01.2004 09:43
But we can't use that as an excuse for repeating the same shit all over again. We can use our power to start putting things right for a change, which is the opposite of what's happening in Iraq right now. I think we should get the hell out of Iraq, and Saudi, and most of the rest of the world, and quit trying to build another empire. I also think we should start leaning on Israel for a change, they've had a free ride from us for way too long.
And I've gotta say, it's absolutely right that we use way too much goddamn oil. You can't walk most places here in LA, (or most other cities I go to for my job) you've got to drive like 2 doors down, cause there's no sidewalk. I see Moms on my street driving their kids 50 yards to the bus stop on the corner. It's mental.
As for the video, well. I agree that we don't know enough about what happened before. They could have a weapon under that tarp or whatever it is. But our guys shouldn't have shot that guy lying helpless on the ground.
Jerry
US bottom of the league in aid
31.01.2004 12:00
Actually the US is the stingiest of all the developed countries, both by percentage of GDP and by dollars per person. Here's a table showing aid by percentage of GDP in 2000:
The new proposed aid budget will rise slightly to 0.13 percent of GDP by 2006: up a little from 0.10, but still by far the lowest aid by percentage, and one of the lowest in dollars per person:
And of course, the largest single recipient of that aid money is poor, starving Israel.
Mick
War crime
31.01.2004 12:12
"...guess you would be where you are right now if it wasnt for Americas help."
Too fucking right we wouldn't. We're in far more danger from terrorism now than any other European country, thanks to our Dear Leader going along with whatever Bush says, and giving a knee-jerk yes vote to every idiotic invasion that Bush proposes. Now that Bush is finally admitting there was never any evidence for WMDs, I guess Tony will have to go along with him and admit it too.
Then there are the punitive tariffs that the US has just imposed on our steel, tobacco and other British products, and the fact they won't let any British companies bid for the big reconstruction contracts in Iraq. The US still treats us like shit, same as they always have.
Ian
Yes, right...
31.01.2004 15:02
And Britian's past raping of the world isn't an excuse for any country to do the same. My point is that those high and mighty Englishmen need to look at their own actions as well before criticizing the U.S. There's a deeper agenda and resentment than just the Iraq war...as you can see by Ian's comment about the U.S. treating the UK like shit....geez, it sounds like Ian is going to take his ball and go home. Comments like that are born from the bitter defeat of our revolution.
As far as the aid statistic goes...be sure you capture the amount of aid done by Americans with their own time and money, not just what is recorded by government programs.
Oh, one last thing Jerry, don't forget why we've had to open a can of whoopass on certain individuals in this world. You're outlook would be quite different if you were planting your wife or child in the ground after having them pulled out of the rubble of the Twin Towers.
Citizen Kane
Tech fixes
31.01.2004 15:51
There are lots of engineers already. And there are already lots of alternatives to driving everywhere, all the fucking time. It's not the entire world that needs convincing, it's a tiny minority: us. We're 4% of the world's population, using 25% of its oil. The magical tech fix is not going to happen. We need to change the way we live, now, today. Our oil addiction is going to kill us.
Jeff
Gunship footage
31.01.2004 16:45
Matthew Vitcaks
Comments are out of context
31.01.2004 20:03
Aren't we jumping to conclusions here by seeing a limited piece of footage? You're complaining about the American forces acting as judge and jury when you are doing exactly the same thing, albeit with a chip on your shoulder about the US. Do you know what kind of intelligence the US army pilots had on these men? Do you know whether these men were tracked from the scene of a brutal attack by insurgents earlier that same day in which a number of Iraqi civilians were ruthlessly killed?
Clearly this piece of video is disturbing and quite sobering. War is a horrible, ugly thing. We all have our heads up our asses if we don't recognize that this type of thing goes on all around the world every single day of our lives. And some army somewhere is doing our dirty work for us while we sit around on our arses and watch chat shows whilst scarfing down Tesco take-away. More than 18,000 people will die today because of lack of access to fresh drinking water. So go drive your Range Rover down to the pub for another pint, mates.
Christopher Boffoli
e-mail:
thx11388@georgia.co.jp
Obvious ignorence
02.02.2004 08:47
Your's truely, Bloody Yank!
ski
e-mail:
n\a
Unresolved issues
02.02.2004 10:58
We are not in full control of the facts of the incident. Several key issues are unresolved in as far as determining the status of the Iraqis as combatants or civilians - what was the object dropped in the field, why was it dropped there, what part did the tractor driver play in this incident? I do not believe that the video footage, such as it is, equips us with enough information to conclusively answer these questions.
In my personal opinion, for that is all I can bring to this debate, is that the American military exercised excessive use of force in this incident. Given that the men posed no apparent imminent threat, ground troops should have been dispatched to investigate under the protection of the helicopter crew. I can find no justification for the shooting of a wounded and helpess individual, combatant or otherwise.
Does anyone know if the US military are seeking to clarify the circumstances of the incident?
David
some incorrect facts about this article
03.02.2004 02:22
1) This article says the video was not taken at night. This is incorrect, it was. The time indicator on the HUD reads 16:25 which would be about 4:25PM. However, the clock is set to zulu time (GMT), so the actual time is 02:25, or 2:25AM. The apache depicted was blacked out (no lights on) but could see with its FLIR (forward looking infrared), so the men depicted never actually saw the aircraft.
As for the items being farming tools, this is not true either. The weapon they're dropping in the field is a shoulder fired heat seeking missile. There were serveral more found in the vehicle along with RPG's. This is the same weapon that took down a Chinook a few months ago and killed 31 soldiers.
After the first man was shot, the second is seen clearly ripping the tarp off some concealed tubular object, you can see it if you look close in the video. What is more plausible, some farmer who just saw his friend get blown to pieces frantically diving for his... piece of irrigation pipe... or a terrorist frantically trying to get a weapon, even though his chances of hitting the apache with a correct firing angle without seeing it at the range it was at is pretty low, I still would have probably done the same thing if I were him. However if I was a farmer, I'd run the hell away, jump down, hide, try not to make myself a target.
There appears to be a lot of crazed frothing at the mouth going on here, when practically everyone is ignorant of the facts.
michael
Another parallel to the American Revolution
03.02.2004 04:21
The writings of the day-- the letters to the editor, the personal correspondence, the newspaper articles, the broadsheets-- carried the same urgency, vicious ad-hominen attacks, opinions-without-facts, awful hysterical rantings, and principled outrage that we see on both sides of this war today. OK, well, perhaps the language was cleaner back then ;-) And they didn't have the Internet.
The United States of America is now an Empire, and it is attempting to reclaim control of one of its wayward economic colonies. Full stop. All that other crap about WMD's (isn't a B-52 a WMD??), human rights, oil, Israel, 9/11, etc, is just noise.
I don't care whether the Apache crew was justified in blasting those guys to bits. I don't care what those guys were doing in their truck/tractor/whatever. All that matters is that the U.S. Army *did* kill those guys, with extreme (I also don't care whether it was "excessive") force, on the soil of somebody else's country, and that's worse than wrong-- it's stupid.
The real "direct hit" in this attack was scored by Ellsberg, in his post above.
Remember that the American Revolution marked the peak of the British Empire-- the beginning of its subsequent long, slow decline. Americans always seem to be in a hurry to do things quickly; perhaps the Neocons don't realise that they're rushing the whole "decline" process as well.
"Be careful who you step on as you climb up the ladder, you may meet them again on the way down"
publius
Times etc.
03.02.2004 09:10
I'd like to see the evidence that makes you so certain those were "shoulder fired heat seeking missile. There were serveral more found in the vehicle along with RPG's."
Got a URL, or can you cite some publicly available documents? Or are we just supposed to trust the Pentagon PR man, again?
Jeff
time zone
03.02.2004 13:13
Although, it would still be dark in Iraq at 7:25.
michael
Not murder
03.02.2004 15:36
The pilot and gunner did not want to use a 30mm to destroy the targets, but that is the smallest weapon the apache carries. Watch the long version, read some facts, dont just buy into what people are trying to convince you of.
Ricky
Gunship Video
03.02.2004 23:22
Tim
No...
04.02.2004 19:32
Secodn off, terrorists DO NOT get the geneva convention, because they arent part of a fighting force of a nation. They are criminals, not combatants. Terrorist anyway. Men fighting in Iraq right now however do fall under the convention. And either way i guarantee that the thir man was going to die anyway. Better to kill him quick then let him suffer
akula
Terrorists
04.02.2004 19:44
Or is anybody you feel like killing a "terrorist"? Your govt thinks that Reclaim the Streets, and Carnival Against Capitalism, people dancing in the street and blocking traffic, are "terrorists":
Calling people fighting off a foreign invader "terrorists" follows on easily from this. By your definition, the US colonial rebels in 1776 were "terrorists".
Barry
A reminder
04.02.2004 20:05
George W. Bush
More
04.02.2004 21:02
Satisfied Individual
You Are a Bunch of Liberial Communist
05.02.2004 10:23
U S Navy EOD
What about...?
05.02.2004 18:27
1. That the object is a bundle of long handled farm tools being taken over to where the farmers are working with the tractor.
2. That the object is a bundle of thin poles to be driven into the ground ahead of the tractor to give the tractor driver a visible guide to keep the furrows straight.
3. As suggested by a reader, that the object may be part of the plastic pipe irrigation system used in dry climate agriculture. """
If that's just farming equipment, why would that guy immediately run for it and pull it out of a bag when the helicopter opened fire? What good would a farm tool do against a helicopter?
He was pulling out a weapon and you damn well know it.
Me myself and i
Facts unclear
05.02.2004 20:00
OK I've gone back and watched it again, and I don't see that happening. I see two guys walking back to the tractor (not all the way to the thing thrown into the field). Then the Apache opens fire again, but this time he's in range, and the bullets are hitting. First guys is gone. Second guy is fumbling around for something on the tractor, or maybe next to the tractor, we don't know what, we can't see it. Hell, it could have just been a rifle, if he didn't know it was an Apache there.
When I think about the kind of mistakes cops make when they're standing right 10 feet away from a suspect, like mistaking a wooden chair leg for a gun, it stands to reason it's going to be even tougher from a helicopter. He says he's positive it's a weapon, well yeah maybe he believes it, but that don't make it so.
So it's going to take a lot more than just this short video to convince me either way. But nobody seems to be able to quote anything that sheds any more light on it, just lots of "well I read somewhere" kind of stuff.
Bill Z
You're kidding, right?
07.02.2004 03:14
Kate
Great way to fight terrorism
07.02.2004 08:46
Look what happened the last time we tried your "get tough" strategy:
And we still got our asses kicked out in the end.
Our troops are "in harms way" because our lying idiot president and all his oil buddies put them there. Bring them home, and they'll be out of harm's way.
Joe
Fighting terrorism
07.02.2004 09:00
- Prime Minister Tony Blair, in a written reply to Parliament, 15th October 2003
"Should Saddam conclude that a U.S.-led attack could no longer be deterred, he probably would become much less constrained in adopting terrorist actions...Saddam might decide that the extreme step of assisting Islamist terrorists in conducting a attack against the United States would be his last chance to exact vengeance by taking a large number of victims with him."
- CIA report to the Senate Intelligence Committee , 7th October 2002
"It is our view that an invasion of Iraq would ensure overflowing recruitment centres for terrorists into the indefinite future. Far from eliminating the threat it would enhance it exponentially,"
- A statement by CIA veterans, February 2003
"War in Iraq has probably inflamed radical passions among Muslims and thus increased al-Qaeda's recruiting power and morale and, at least marginally, its operational capability"
- International Institute for Strategic Studies, Annual Report 2003-2004
The White House could not give a flying fuck about terrorism, or keeping anyone but themselves out of harm's way. Bush and Cheney are happy to risk the lives of brave American soldiers, if that'll help them grab up all the treasure they can carry. Wise up.
Mick
Boo Hoo !!!!!!!
08.02.2004 16:45
Marty
Come on...
10.02.2004 01:12
-They are in the middle of a field at night
-They are obviously suspicious
-He looks around before grabbing the tube-like object out of the car
-They don't take cover when being fired upon
-The one by the tractor is frantically trying to remove something before being killed
-He runs when placing the tube-like object in the field and throws it down quickly.
Robert
e-mail:
ViperSniper79@hotmail.com
Proof vs. suspicion
10.02.2004 06:40
It's 7:30 PM. You're obviously not a farmer: we don't work 9 to 5.
"They are obviously suspicious"
And so they should be. Lots of robberies and killings going on there at the moment, and lots of civilians getting killed by an occupying army for no reason:
"He looks around before grabbing the tube-like object out of the car"
Yeah, so maybe it's a rifle. Or maybe it's something he stole. My friend at IBM told me every time they tried to lay down wide-area networks in Turkey outside of the two main cities, the copper cabling got dug up and stolen, because it was the most valuable thing around for a days drive. And these people are a lot poorer than the Turks. It could be almost anything. You can't tell from the night-vision video what that object was, and neither could the pilot. Any evidence recovered from after the killing? Anyone bother to go fetch the suspicious object in the field? I've searched, and can't find a damn thing. Stands to reason that the Pentagon are too embarrassed to say what it really was.
"They don't take cover when being fired upon"
Again, the Apache is far enough away not to be heard. All they're going to hear at first is bullets hitting soft, plowed-up ground in the dark. It would have taken a minute for them to work out what was going on. When they start hitting the cars, that's when they start running around. But if it was an RPG they dropped in the field, why didn't they run back to grab it? Simple: it wasn't an RPG, it probably wasn't even a weapon.
"The one by the tractor is frantically trying to remove something before being killed"
First you say it's suspicious that they don't take cover when fired upon, and now you say it's suspicious that they are getting frantic when fired upon. So which is it?
He's worked out they're being fired on by then. You think he had a spare RPG hidden in his little tractor? No, he's got a rifle or a handgun in there. He's going to return fire. His country's in the middle of a fucking civil war, and being occupied by a trigger-happy foreign army, and his neighbors are all robbing each other to stay alive. Wouldn't you have a gun in your car? What would YOU do? I'd be packing whatever weapon I could buy, borrow or steal.
"He runs when placing the tube-like object in the field and throws it down quickly. "
You're bouncing back & forth on the timeline now. Yeah, maybe it's a weapon. Or maybe not. Maybe he's stolen something. You have no idea what that is. But you think it was a "good kill", from a spoonful of evidence that something bad MIGHT have been up. They also shot a wounded man on the ground, who was no threat to the Apache at all. All in a days work for the Forces of Freedom.
Mark
re: suspiscion vs proof
10.02.2004 16:09
I believe he was saying that it is supiscious that they don't frantically take cover when fired upon, rather than frantically and conspiciously trying to free something wrapped in a large cloth/tarp.
>> It's 7:30 PM. You're obviously not a farmer: we don't work 9 to 5.
I've worked many a days on my grandfather's ranch, and I didnt work at 7:30. you can't hardly see anything when it gets dark.
>> He's worked out they're being fired on by then. You think he had a spare RPG hidden in his little tractor? No, he's got a rifle or a handgun in there. He's going to return fire. His country's in the middle of a fucking civil war, and being occupied by a trigger-happy foreign army, and his neighbors are all robbing each other to stay alive. Wouldn't you have a gun in your car? What would YOU do? I'd be packing whatever weapon I could buy, borrow or steal.
After seeing what the 30mm minigun did to my friend, I would not try to do anything to the thing responsible unless I had heavy artillery.
and the most solvent point is that every time an aviator fires a weapon (fixed wing or rotary wing aviator) on his vehicle it is investigated. i'm positive that ground forces sifted through the area. i'm also sure that because we have not heard anything new about this that it was found to be justified. many media outlets (foreign to US especially) would love to run an expose like this if it were really unjustified. I am sure that more than one news organization (besides ABC) has looked deep into the incident just hoping for that.
You never hear anything when we do things right, after all.
Unless you're trying to make the argument that the US Military "covered up" this incident after it had already gotten mainstream national TV coverage. if you believe that, I have some alien cadavers to sell you
regards,
michael
michael
Media silence
10.02.2004 16:41
Your faith in military justice is touching. I've got some alien cadavers to sell you, too. If there was an investigation, why was there no evidence put forward following the report on ABC? I can't find a single thing. Please prove me wrong.
"many media outlets (foreign to US especially) would love to run an expose like this if it were really unjustified. I am sure that more than one news organization (besides ABC) has looked deep into the incident just hoping for that.
You never hear anything when we do things right, after all. "
We don't always hear anything when we do things wrong, either. I could hand you a list a mile long of seriously bad shit our govt has done that hardly ever gets talked about in the mainstream press. Google for "tiger force" or "northwoods memo", to name two examples. The massacres in East Timor and Halabja barely got reported in the mainstream press while they were happening, either in the US or abroad. How often do you hear in the mainstream press about the oddly high numbers of US servicement flown home with mysterious pneumonia-like symptoms? And so on. Please don't rely on the corporate press to bring you all the news, because their track record truly sucks on this, and it's got a lot worse since 9/11.
Mark
Pentagon lies through its teeth
10.02.2004 21:23
I'm a conservative Republican, and I'm so sick of the lies the Pentagon keeps telling about this war. Check out this site:
It's run by Steve Robinson, a highly decorated Special Forces veteran who served with distinction all over the world:
More Pentagon lies exposed, on Soldiers For The Truth:
The Eagle
Comments about video
10.02.2004 23:06
The item that was dropped in the field is indeed longer than a RPG-7 launcher, but it is not longer than a LOADED RDG launcher. If you look close right when it is thrown in the field you can make out the conical head of the shaped charge projectile.
A for the time I am not 100% sure but night imaging thermal equipment does not work during the day. If this was during the day you should have hot spots from the sunlight and there are none.
As for being farmers, well if you watch the entire video their actions are not typical of a farmer going to work in a field. One of the men has bloused his pants farmers don't do that.
Basically if you are caught with a RPG-7 launcher, the only thing you are trying to hunt is Americans. Can't be to upset when your intended prey fights back
MKeen
Who are you people?
10.02.2004 23:20
bisson
Can't see it
11.02.2004 09:10
We need more evidence, people.
Nick
Absolute Morons!
12.02.2004 06:05
1st an foremost you people bash the U.S.A. for its decision to remove a truely evil man from power. So what of the MILLIONS people he slaughtered? Is that OK? The thousands of Kurds he gased WOMEN AND CHILDREN!!! His regime MURDERED, RAPED, and TORTURED people regularly.
So you see 3 suspicious characters getting killed and you freak out. What? Are the Pilots suppose to go up to them and interrogate them? No you fools this is a war situation. If you are a civilian in a wartime situation do not do anything suspicious or it could mean your life. This is what happens in wars. People die. Some innocent some not. Deal with it.
Do you fools even take into consideration that the USA is the caretaker of this entire pathetic planet we live on? We send more aid to other countries than anyone else. We bail out other countries financialy more than anyone else. So the hypocrisy is almost comical. Countries will take our money and our aid but when we have to defend ourselves from evil and powers that support terrorism we get slammed. Wake up and look at the real world.
Look at stupid morons in France. We bail them out of 2 takeovers this century and yet they still bash us! Most of Europe and the world would be speaking German right now if it wasn't for the USA. We put forth and lost MILLIONS of our own people to help and save others from being overrun. What thanks do we get??? NONE.
What thanks do we get for removing a murdering lunatic in Iraq? NONE. What thanks do we get for removing a evil regime (taliban) NONE. What thanks do we get from driving a lunatic like Osama underground? NONE.
WAKE UP PEOPLE! We can no longer be passive in this day and age. We have fanatical religious freaks that will stop at nothing. Their only intent is to cause mayhem and chaos. If someone does not curb this tide of terrorism then no one no where on this Earth will be safe from this wicked people.
Wicked Shall Be Punished
Wicked Shall be Your Business Partners
12.02.2004 11:57
You murdering hypocrites were happy to put Saddam into power, do business with him, sell him WMD, and veto UN action against him when he gassed the Kurds. Now you expect to us to believe that you were against him all along. But unlike you, we have long memories.
"So you see 3 suspicious characters getting killed and you freak out. What? Are the Pilots suppose to go up to them and interrogate them?"
Yes, once there's no longer a threat. The wounded man on the ground was no threat to anyone. He should have been arrested, not shot.
"Do you fools even take into consideration that the USA is the caretaker of this entire pathetic planet we live on?"
4% of the population, eats up 25% of the energy, and rising. Pulled out of the Kyoto Protocol. Refuses to sign the Landmine Treaty. Refuses to sign the Bio-weapons treaty. Some fucking caretaker.
"We send more aid to other countries than anyone else. We bail out other countries financialy more than anyone else. "
Wrong. The US is the stingiest of all the developed countries, both by percentage of GDP and by dollars per person. Here's a table showing aid by percentage of GDP in 2000:
Bush's new proposed aid budget will rise slightly to 0.13 percent of GDP by 2006: up a little from 0.10, but still by far the lowest aid by percentage, and one of the lowest in dollars per person:
And of course, the largest single recipient of that aid money is poor, starving Israel. Americans think they are the most generous in the world, because their President and their press say so. But the figures prove otherwise.
"Most of Europe and the world would be speaking German right now if it wasn't for the USA."
Mm, maybe. And maybe you would be speaking French right now if it weren't for Britain.
"We put forth and lost MILLIONS of our own people to help and save others from being overrun. What thanks do we get??? NONE. "
Wrong again. The USA lost about 300,000 troops in WW2, about the same as the UK, and only slightly higher than France. Check your figures:
You've had your thanks for WWII. Does that mean we should continue to be eternally grateful and supportive when you do something illegal and wrong? If a man saves my kid from drowning, I should be grateful. Should I be so grateful that I go and help him shoot the gangster up the road he was doing business with last week? No.
Just like with Saddam, the USA was happily doing business with Hitler, until it was clear that much better opportunities lay in fighting him. Bush's family got rich from trading with the Nazis before and during the war. We owe Bush not a single thank you, because his family were part of the problem.
"What thanks do we get for removing a murdering lunatic in Iraq? NONE. What thanks do we get for removing a evil regime (taliban) NONE. What thanks do we get from driving a lunatic like Osama underground? NONE."
Maybe we'd be more grateful if you evil fuckers hadn't put all of them in power and funded them in the first place. The US was happily doing business with all of the regimes you mentioned, then suddenly changed its mind when the business deals fell through. Then we're expected to support you bombing the countries that suffered under your former dictator buddies. Fuck you.
"WAKE UP PEOPLE! We can no longer be passive in this day and age. We have fanatical religious freaks that will stop at nothing. Their only intent is to cause mayhem and chaos. If someone does not curb this tide of terrorism then no one no where on this Earth will be safe from this wicked people. "
I agree 100% with that. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz are fanatical religious freaks who will stop at nothing. Their intent is to cause mayhem and chaos, and make a big pile of cash too. If someone does not curb this tide of terrorism then no-one and nowhere on this Earth will be safe from these wicked people.
Mick
Apache Killing Video
13.02.2004 01:02
Your conclusions about the length of the possible RPG'S or stingers they may have had as irrigation pipe or tools is all wrong. The Soviet com-bloc shoulder fired "stinger" equivelant is just about that size. So is the french made copy.
Ed
Shooting the wounded
13.02.2004 10:28
But hey, if he wants to live in a war-torn country, then it must be his fault that the pilot shot him.
Ian
USA Bashers
13.02.2004 12:03
Sniper666
Pickup driver is a female
16.02.2004 18:00
The pickup truck driver is a woman. You can clearly see her hair as she walks several times back and forth from the pickup truck to the field. She takes a long object from the pickup and runs off into the field and drops it, to the left of where the tractor parks later. Look at the way she runs back and forth several times compared to the way the truck driver does, its clear by the way she runs that she is a female. Then the truck driver also runs into the field and drops a second smaller object to the right of where the tractor will park. Both then go back to the pickup truck and wait around talking while waiting for the tractor to arrive. The male truck driver then walks back and forth between the pickup and the location where he dropped the second object. Then the tractor arrives. The female then runs over to the tractor and she and the tractor driver kiss. The female goes around the tractor while the tractor driver gets out and walks towards the trucks. The female pulls something out of the tractor and begins doing something with it as the tractor driver is being shot. The first kill is witnessed by the truck driver who backs out of the frame and hides behind his truck. The female, unaware of what has just occured, probably due to the noise of the running tractor, continues what she was doing. She is then also shot as she seems to be unrolling something, a hose maybe. Then the truck driver is shot at, then is shot at again as he seems to be crawling, after being probably wounded.
To conclude : two trucks on a road waiting for a tractor to arrive in a field, two objects are dropped off in the field either side of where the tractor will park, something is taken from the tractor. The part of the field just covered by the tractor is clearly visible on the infrared camera proving the tractor was really engaged in agriculral work at the time.
Ever heard of the saying that when the only tool you own is a hammer, all objects look like nails ?
Gilles
e-mail:
toto@hotmail.com
From Someone Who Is Here!
16.02.2004 20:26
Spc M. Lafferty
e-mail:
bullrack31@yahoo.com
KILLING VIDEO
18.02.2004 08:49
James
Wake up assholes
18.02.2004 10:35
I'd rather see these assholes blown to shit than a buddy. Before you comment, come on over and stay a week, you'll pull your head out of your ass quick.
Bill
Um...one comment no one has mentioned
18.02.2004 15:25
BC
Damn Good Shooting
20.02.2004 04:31
They want to deal with illegal weapons, they need to understand the consequences. I know that dealing with the consequences of your actions is a concept totally foreign to you, but some people actually believe in it.
Cheers.
MilitaryIndustrialComplex
Yanks can't spell Britain, let alone find it on a map
20.02.2004 20:12
Guess we should also be really grateful for the family of your "President" making their fortune from major investments in Nazi businesses and Auschwitz slave labour, then finally cashing in their shares in 1951:
As for the concept of "dealing with the consequences of our actions", it's plain enough that it's you yanks who are dealing with the consequences of your actions, and expecting us to fell sorry for you. You lied about WMD, so you could go in and bomb the shit out of this particular dictatorship because you no longer felt you could do business with the evil dictator you installed and armed not long ago. Now we're supposed to feel a wave of sympathy for you and your "buddies", because you're being shot at in your heavily armed Apaches by resistance fighters on the ground. Well boo-fuckin-hoo. Fuck off home, and then you won't be threatened by the big scary Iraqis anymore.
Cheers,
Martin
Some more Damn Good Shooting
20.02.2004 20:17
Ian
If you think that's bad!
21.02.2004 21:02
homer
e-mail:
homer@hotmail.com
The Truth
22.02.2004 18:58
It boils down to the simplest of socioeconomics. We are the "Haves" and the entire rest of the world are the "Have-nots", albeit to varying degrees of neglect. It is human nature for those who don't have it to want it. This creates jealousy. Many people in the rest of the world are jealous of the prosperity that Americans are born into. This is our era, just like the 19th century was the era of the British empire. Deal with it (or say hello to our friend, the Apache).
The difference between the state of the world now and when any other empire was on top is this: we are relatively humane in our dominance. We take great care not to harm innocents, even to the point of endagering our own people. Nobody else in history has gone to such lengths.
After we took care of the Japanese in WWII, we paid to rebuild their country, such that they are now one of the top 5 economies in the world. Same with Germany.
But we would be stupid to not look out for ourselves first. Altruism can only go so far. The world is lucky that we are in charge, as opposed to the Nazis, the Taliban, the Roman Empire, etc.
So if we have to blow up a few Iraqis who are acting shady, I say this: you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. For our more dense friends, I'll explain the metaphor - suspicious Iraqis are the eggs, and a more stable world economy and relative peace is the omelette.
I support our troops. Get 'em, fellas.
Damn Yankee
The rest of the truth
23.02.2004 09:51
If it's all about jealousy, as you suggest, then why aren't they attacking countries where the quality of life is as good or better than the US, like Sweden, Denmark, Canada, Japan, etc.? The answer is simple: it's nothing to do with jealousy, and everything to do with hatred of your military and economic policies.
You certainly do not take care in not harming innocents in war: your use in Iraq and Afghanistan of cluster bombs, depleted uranium shells and daisy-cutters is well documented. These barbaric weapons take vastly more civilian lives than are necessary, but help to minimise US casualties. You also refuse to sign the treaties banning use of land-mines and bioweapons. You demonstrably could not give a flying fuck about civilian lives, so don't bother claiming otherwise.
This is nothing new for the US: you are the only country to have ever used nuclear weapons in wartime. You nuked civilians in two Japanese cities, while peace talks were going on, to send a signal to the Soviets that you were willing to use them even where not necessary. More of your "broken eggs", I suppose.
I for one am hoping for a Bush election victory in November: this will hasten the inevitable next attack against a US city. I hope millions die this time, like the millions you've killed in your wars around the world. Then let's see how much sympathy you get this time.
Get 'em, fellas.
Per
Per is God
23.02.2004 18:27
You're mixing your metaphors again. Omelettes don't require any human flesh at all - so you can indeed make an omelette without killing people. [British folk never have been very good at cuisine]
What you can't do is keep the world from going freakin' nuts without applying some lethal force every now and then. And for all the people that don't like the way we do it, I'd like to know what solution you propose.
You're not one of those Fascist-Anarchists that Ferris Beuler talks about, are you? No authority, no law, and people will just govern themseleves? It doesn't work.
I'm not sure why you are getting so mad. I like British people - you're a funny lot. But to wish for millions of civilians in an American city to be killed in the next terrorist attack...that's the jealousy that I'm talking about. I'd be jealous too, if I were you, with a name like Per.
I'll leave you with this, Per, take heed: "I am the Walrus."
Damn Yankee
Sad Americans
23.02.2004 19:26
Marc
e-mail:
jollym21@hotmail.com
Not British
23.02.2004 19:51
I'm a programmer with skills in high demand in the US and elsewhere. I worked in the US for 3 long years. In the end I resigned, and left. The better wages simply weren't worth it. I couldn't stand the culture, the fact that I had to drive everywhere, the waste, the fat people everywhere, the unreadably bad newspapers, the enormous pressure to conform, and to buy, buy, buy. I hated the wilfull, happy ignorance of almost every single person I met or worked with, even people with advanced university degrees. I hated the insularity of the media, who pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist. I hated the oppressive bureaucracy, the way the FBI constantly chips away at its citizens rights, the huge, stupid, armed policemen everywhere. Most of all, I missed my freedom. America is the least free country in the Western world, and its people don't even care. My American girlfriend agreed, and moved back home to Europe with me. She's never looked back.
So don't bother telling me that I'm "jealous" because I want one of your cities to be attacked, and soon. It's just clear to me that we can't "keep the world from going freakin' nuts without applying some lethal force every now and then." Lethal force is the only thing you people listen too.
You're the menace. You're the rogue state. You will be stopped, but not by a conventional army, European or otherwise. It will be a combination of your mounting economic problems and by renewed terrorist attacks, from some of the many countries you are continuing to fuck daily. Once you're finally put to bed, the rest of us can all breathe easy again.
That's the solution, but it's not me that's proposing it. I'm just sitting back, and waiting for it to happen.
Per
Iraqies being taken out by an apache gun ship
24.02.2004 01:15
ardie fasinc
apache killing video
24.02.2004 04:59
There was an exchange of long weapon-like items wrapped and being unwrapped in preparation for use. They had received fire from that direction. Even criminals will try to act non-chalant when conducting crimes. I'm not comparing them to criminals but I am adressing their seemingly oblivious lack of concern or acting as such so as to draw no further attention. In my luxury of minutes to assess I feel as if the aircrew were acting within the scope of their duties, but that's my opinion. I know many of these men. Their actions are dutiful. Political preferences don't factor into soldiering.
I am an apache pilot myself. I am an American. I originally hail from outside of New york City. My heart cried for those souls on 9/11. Then my soul groaned in the realization of how the WORLWIDE complacent trust in the fellow man led to those disasters. I saw a new world I am ashamed to leave to my son, which was left to me. I know the US and GB are equally dirty in covert operations worldwide, but the truth is both of our countries have provide varying degrees of stability throughout the world. And if I'm not mistaken over fifty years ago we had a little something to do with keeping all of Eurasia from speaking German and later keeping communst socialism from taking the deepest of roots also.
War is an extension of politics by other means. Those who fight the war do so because many cannot and unfortunately many don't have the resolve, the belly to stand for anything. The worst are those who only raise the alarm and provide little to no help. Next time you want to pass judgement feel free to do so because you are free and not forced to comply with threats to your family's well being. Feel free to do so because there are people who still think sustaining freedom and sharing the freedom that you excercise are things that are worth dying for.
Finally, when fighting you fight to win. Hesitation will usually cost you dearly. So when your finger is on the trigger you shoot to kill because thats what "the other guy" is doing. Go Guns or go HOME!
Brian O'Connell (USA)
e-mail:
m230e1@hotmail.com
Iraq and 9/11
24.02.2004 09:23
"I say toast them like their brothers did ours on 911 and let God sort them out."
Etc etc, in the many comments above. It amazes me that there are Americans who still believe that Iraq had anything at all to do with 9/11. Every single piece of evidence put forward for a connection between the two has been disproven or discredited. You might as well say that Saddam was responsible for the Kennedy assasination. It's flat-earther stuff.
All the allegations about Iraq being connected with 9/11 were put out by the men who were desperate to invade Iraq. But the plans were being laid for the invasion back in 1997, by members of a leading think-tank who are now senior members of the Bush cabinet. Read it here:
9/11 was perpetrated by Saudis and Pakistanis. Pakistan has now been proven responsible for helping to run a black market in nuke spares. The Saudi government is strongly implicated in terrorism. Yet nobody's bombing them. No, we're still doing major business with both of them, and we give billions in aid to both dictatorships.
Wake up, you dupes.
Jeff
Reponse to Tom
25.02.2004 04:27
Preston
e-mail:
PrestonDean11@aol.com
You idiots
25.02.2004 04:28
Here's a good question. If you hear an attack helicopter somewhere around you, why would you pull out something that's could be mistaken for a weapon from your truck? Why then would you also MOVE for it after your buddy just got blown to PIECES next to you? Oh, maybe because it was a weapon?
J H
Ive got a few facts for you
26.02.2004 00:58
jgwolfgram (AIM)
And I've got a few facts for you
26.02.2004 02:15
And who decided it was "their base"? Whose country is it? Who invited them in?
"Our Army at that airbase get pounded by mortar fire almost every day by guys like these three"
That's a drag pal. Why not fuck off home then: no more pounding, end of problem.
"...these guys are hero's in my book, for all any of you know they could have saved lives those days by killing those three."
Whose lives? The lives of hired killers? The lives of invaders? The lives of oilmen scurrying around the country desperately looking for a safe piece of treasure to cart off home? Are you serious?
"Just because they're in the Army doesnt mean they're cold hearted killers who love blowing people to bits,"
You don't have to love killing to be a cold hearted killer. You can just choose to put your conscience on auto-pilot. I know it well, I was in the army myself, many years back.
"I bet when that pilot says "HIT HIM" he's thinking of his friend that got fucked up by a mortar shell that one of these bastards shot off the day before."
And I bet when one of the guys with a Stinger or an RPG says "HIT HIM" in Arabic, he's thinking about one of his family that got fragged by a cluster bomb. Who's the invader? Not the guy with the RPG. 10,000 Iraq civilian dead, and 500 US soldiers dead. Who's got more to think about when they're pulling the trigger?
"I dont know who the bastard was who said he'd be shooting at us too, but I really hate you, your a damn moron"
It wasn't me that said it. But I'd be shooting at you too, if I was an Iraqi. And you'd be shooting at me, if I invaded your country. Is that so tough to understand?
"I bet that there's some 'insurgent' out there reading some of the bullshit you dumbasses wrote laughing at us because our own people want our own soldiers dead."
Well I doubt they're laughing. Chucking you heavily-armed dolts out of their country isn't a fucking game, it's their lives, it's the lives of their families.
Americans go around the world invading countries, puffing out their chests and laughing about how fucking hard they are: "Fuck with the eagle, you get the claw!" Yeah, right. Until it starts to not quite go according to plan, and lots of bodies start getting quietly airlifted back at night. Then we get fucking Vietnam poetry, we get movies, we get self-righteous tragic horseshit about how guys that volunteered for the US Army are really nice guys, caught in an impossible position. Well fuck that. Don't like getting shot at, don't join an army that goes around the world bombing and killing people that never did a god damn thing against you. Iraq never did shit to the USA, and neither did Vietnam, Cambodia, Panama or Grenada. But you invade them because you fucking well feel like it.
I've got zero sympathy for you and your jarhead buddies. You're going to get your asses kicked, again. Then you'll leave, and we'll get to watch the next "Black Hawk Down" in 5 years about how heroic it all was. What a crock of shit.
Phil
Its a war
26.02.2004 03:03
John
e-mail:
Teeter_151@hotmail.com
Phil...
26.02.2004 08:54
We decided its our base, right after we kicked the Iraqi army out of it, you know the guys killing their buddies who were trying to surrender to us. After we did that, we took it since it wasn't being occupied anymore. I may not agree with all the political reasons of why we're there, but I agree with what our fellas did in order to defend themselves from the 105mm cannon John says it is.
"That's a drag pal. Why not fuck off home then: no more pounding, end of problem."
Yeah, lets go home right now while everything is already a mess so some other nutcase can get some followers and become the next military power to govern Iraq...wait, isnt that how Saddam got in control? If he can do it why cant we? Hmm..
"Whose lives? The lives of hired killers? The lives of invaders? The lives of oilmen scurrying around the country desperately looking for a safe piece of treasure to cart off home? Are you serious?"
A lot of guys arn't in the U.S. Army for the politics, I bet a lot of the soldiers would rather not be there, the heros in that helicopter saved the lives of their friends. If those three wernt trying to kill us we wouldnt have killed them.
"You don't have to love killing to be a cold hearted killer. You can just choose to put your conscience on auto-pilot. I know it well, I was in the army myself, many years back."
That explains a lot of your anger.
"And I bet when one of the guys with a Stinger or an RPG says "HIT HIM" in Arabic, he's thinking about one of his family that got fragged by a cluster bomb. Who's the invader? Not the guy with the RPG. 10,000 Iraq civilian dead, and 500 US soldiers dead. Who's got more to think about when they're pulling the trigger?"
See now this is the problem I have with your entire argument. How do you even know these guys are from Iraq? For all you know they could be religous extremists coming into the country of Iraq just because they hate the U.S. Do you really think the Iraqi police would be that big of a target by their own people? Maybe you should take that into consideration before you start asuming things. I havnt really seen a lot of fact in your arguments at all, just seems like a lot of BS to me.
"Americans go around the world invading countries, puffing out their chests and laughing about how fucking hard they are: "Fuck with the eagle, you get the claw!" Yeah, right."
Blah blah blah, more assumptions, its nice how you can stereotype the feelings of an entire nation like that. You havnt seen me say "british people think they know so much more then us americans, they're just pissed off because they dont have a say in what goes on around the world". I dont think that about every brit, just you. And why is it that people think we go around invading countries, if we did that we'd have canada and mexico a long time ago. We just mess with the 'evil-doers' =D
"Until it starts to not quite go according to plan, and lots of bodies start getting quietly airlifted back at night. Then we get fucking Vietnam poetry, we get movies, we get self-righteous tragic horseshit about how guys that volunteered for the US Army are really nice guys, caught in an impossible position. Well fuck that. Don't like getting shot at, don't join an army that goes around the world bombing and killing people that never did a god damn thing against you. Iraq never did shit to the USA, and neither did Vietnam, Cambodia, Panama or Grenada. But you invade them because you fucking well feel like it."
Like I said I dont agree with all the political views of why we went in, but in some ways I'm glad we did. Saddam wanted to play his games with the world, he could have easily complied with the UN and we wouldnt be in this mess. I dont like dead bodies on either side of this shithole we're in, but whats done is done. And all this 'poetry' you dont like, you dont have to read, nobody is asking you to go to these movies, they're a reflection of how people felt and how they got through hard shit, some are to make money but a lot of them are serious deep shit. Dont even fucking bring up volunteer's and Vietnam in the same sentance, if you knew shit you'd know about the draft. A lot of those guys didn't want to go, some where young and stupid and thought firing a gun would be cool but when they got into it realized how serious it was. And fuck you for thinking Bush represents the entire nation, dont think we all like being in this position, dont fuckin think all those soldiers wanted to go iraq instead of staying home with their families, because you'd be wrong. Same goes with Vietnam, Iraq was probably a good excuse to get revenge for 9/11 for Bush, whether or not they had anything to do with it. And it was probably good for him politically b/c he thought he might be re-elected by it, but dont think all Americans like it.
One more thing, people here join the army because of opportunity, we get 32k college money just for a few years, a lot of people dont have access to that kind of money. Others join because of the jobs, the pilot that killed those guys will probably go on to be a commercial helicopter pilot, infantry will be police, there's over 200 jobs just in the army, we dont join because we like going around the world bombing and killing, we join because of the incentives ya moron. Check out goarmy.com and maybe you'll understand.
Whatever, stop assuming and give me some real facts because so far you aint got shit, just a lot of built up anger because YOU cant be all you can be.
jgwolfgram
Gangsters
26.02.2004 12:02
No, that's NOT how Saddam got in control. Saddam got in control because the USA put him and the Baath party in power, in the last "regime change". The White House back then didn't like that nationalist government of Abd al-Karim Qasim, so they overthrew him in a bloody coup, and installed the Baathists. Installing dictators and puppet governments has been a US specialty for a very long time. Now they want to do it again.
"I dont think that about every brit, just you. "
I'm not a Brit.
"One more thing, people here join the army because of opportunity, we get 32k college money just for a few years, a lot of people dont have access to that kind of money. Others join because of the jobs, the pilot that killed those guys will probably go on to be a commercial helicopter pilot, infantry will be police, there's over 200 jobs just in the army, we dont join because we like going around the world bombing and killing, we join because of the incentives ya moron. Check out goarmy.com and maybe you'll understand. "
I was in the US Army, ya moron. I understand far better than you do. Is it OK to join an imperial war machine if the money, the career opportunities and the training are really good? If Bin Laden makes you a better offer, will you go work for him?
"And why is it that people think we go around invading countries, if we did that we'd have canada and mexico a long time ago. We just mess with the 'evil-doers' =D"
No, you "mess with" whoever is in the way of your business interests. Are you seriously suggesting that the US doesn't invade countries around the world, installing dictators and putting down popular revolutions against them?
Here are some of the invasions the US has carried out against your so-called "evil-doers":
SOUTH DAKOTA/1890 (-?)/Troops/300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee.
ARGENTINA/1890/Troops/Buenos Aires interests protected.
CHILE/l891/Troops/Marines clash with nationalist rebels.
HAITI/1891/Troops/Black revolt on Navassa defeated.
IDAHO/1892/Troops/Army suppresses silver miners' strike.
HAWAII/l893 (-?)/Naval, troops/Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
CHICAGO/1894/Troops/Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed.
NICARAGUA/l894/Troops/Month-long occupation of Bluefields.
CHINA/l894-95/Naval, troops/Marines land in Sino-Japanese War.
KOREA/l894-96/Troops/Marines kept in Seoul during war.
PANAMA/1895/Troops, naval/Marines land in Colombian province.
NICARAGUA/l896/Troops/Marines land in port of Corinto.
CHINA/l898-1900/Troops/Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies.
PHILIPPINES/l898-1910(-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, killed 600,000
Filipinos
CUBA/l898-1902(-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, still illegally holds
Navy base.
PUERTO RICO/1898(-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, occupation continues.
GUAM/l898(-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, still use as base.
MINNESOTA/l898(-?)/Troops/Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake.
NICARAGUA/l898/Troops/Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.
SAMOA/1899(-?)/Troops/Battle over succession to throne.
NICARAGUA/l899/Troops/Marines land at port of Bluefields.
IDAHO/1899-1901/Troops/Army occupies Coeur d'Alene mining region.
OKLAHOMA/1901/Troops/Army battles Creek Indian revolt
PANAMA/1901-03(-?)/Naval, troops/Broke off from Colombia, annexed Canal Zone
HONDURAS/l903/Troops/Marines intervene in revolution.
DOMINICAN REP./1903-04/Troops/U.S. interests protected in Revolution.
KOREA/1904-05/Troops/Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.
CUBA/1906-09/Troops/Marines land in democratic election.
NICARAGUA/1907/Troops/"Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up.
HONDURAS/l907/Troops/Marines land during war with Nicaragua.
PANAMA/l908/Troops/Marines intervene in election contest.
NICARAGUA/l9l0/Troops/Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.
HONDURAS/1911/Troops/U.S. interests protected in civil war.
CHINA/1911-41/Naval, troops/Continuous occupation with flare-ups
CUBA/1912/Troops/U.S. interests protected in Havana.
PANAMA/l9l2/Troops/Marines land during heated election.
HONDURAS/l9l2/Troops/Marines protect U.S. economic interests.
NICARAGUA/1912-33/Troops, bombing/20-year occupation, fought guerrillas.
MEXICO/l9l3/Naval/Americans evacuated during revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC/1914/Naval/Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.
COLORADO/1914/Troops/Breaking of miners' strike by Army.
MEXICO/1914-18/Naval, troops/Series of interventions against nationalists.
HAITI/1914-34/Troops, bombing/19-year occupation after revolts.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC/1916-24/Troops/8-year Marine occupation.
CUBA/1917-33/Troops/Military occupation, economic protectorate.
WORLD WAR I/19l7-18/Naval, troops/Ships sunk, fought Germany for 1 l/2 years.
USSR/1918-22/Naval, troops/Five landings to fight Bolsheviks in effort to
overthrow the fledgling socialist government.
PANAMA/1918-20/Troops/"Police duty" during unrest after elections.
HONDURAS/l9l9/Troops/Marines land during election campaign.
GUATEMALA/1920/Troops/2-week intervention against unionists.
WEST VIRGINIA/1920-21/Troops, bombing/Army intervenes against mineworkers.
TURKEY/1922/Troops/Fought nationalists in Smyrna.
CHINA/1922-27/Naval, troops/Deployment during nationalist revolt.
HONDURAS/1924-25/Troops/Landed twice during election strife.
PANAMA/1925/Troops/Marines suppress general strike.
CHINA/l928-34/Troops/Marines stationed throughout the country.
EL SALVADOR/l932/Naval/Warships sent during Marti revolt.
WASHINGTON DC/1932/Troops/Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.
DETROIT/l943/Troops/Army puts down Black rebellion.
IRAN/l946/Nuclear threat/Soviet troops told to leave north.
YUGOSLAVIA/l946/Nuclear threat/Response to shooting-down of U.S. plane.
URUGUAY/l947/Nuclear threat/Bombers deployed as show of strength.
GREECE/l947-49/Command operation/U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.
GERMANY/l948/Nuclear threat/Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift
PHILIPPINES/l948-54/Command operation/CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.
PUERTO RICO/1950/Command operation/Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.
KOREA/l951-53(-?)/Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats/U.S.& South Korea
fight China & North Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in l950, and against
China in l953. China accuses U.S. of biological warfare. Still have bases.
IRAN/l953/Command operation/CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.
VIETNAM/l954/Nuclear threat/French offered bombs to use against siege.
GUATEMALA/l954/Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat/CIA directs exile
invasion after new gov't nationalizes U.S. companies' lands; bombers based in
Nicaragua.
EGYPT/l956/Nuclear threat/Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis.
LEBANON/l958/Troops, naval/Marine occupation against rebels.
IRAQ/1958/Nuclear threat/Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.
CHINA/l958/Nuclear threat/China told not to move on Taiwan isles.
PANAMA/1958/Troops/Flag protests erupt into confrontation.
VIETNAM/l960-75/Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats/Fought South
Vietnamese revolt & North Vietnam during the Vietnamese civil war; over two
million Vietnamese casualties in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968
and l969.
LAOS/1961/Command operation/Military buildup during guerrilla war.
CUBA/l961/Command operation/CIA-directed exile invasion fails.
GERMANY/l961/Nuclear threat/Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.
CUBA/l962/Nuclear threat, naval/Blockade during missile crisis; near-war
with Soviet Union.
PANAMA/l964/Troops/Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.
INDONESIA/l965/Command operation/One million-plus killed in CIA-assisted army
coup. CIA provides assassination lists to military, plus weapons.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC/1965-66/Troops, bombing/Marines land during election
campaign.
GUATEMALA/l966-67/Command operation/Green Berets intervene against rebels.
DETROIT/l967/Troops/Army battles Blacks, 43 killed.
UNITED STATES/l968/Troops/King shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities.
CAMBODIA/l969-75/Bombing, troops, naval/Up to 2 million killed in decade
during/after U.S. invasion of Cambodia and bombing, starvation, and political
chaos.
OMAN/l970/Command operation/U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion to intervene
in Omani civil war.
LAOS/l971-73/Command operation, bombing/U.S. directs South Vietnamese
invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.
SOUTH DAKOTA/l973/Command operation/Army directs Wounded Knee siege of
Lakotas.
MIDEAST/1973/Nuclear threat/World-wide alert during Mideast War.
CHILE/1973/Command operation/CIA-backed coup ousts democratically-elected
Marxist president and installs brutal military dictatorship.
CAMBODIA/l975/Troops, bombing/Gas captured ship, 28 die in copter crash.
ANGOLA/l976-?/Command operation/CIA assists South African-backed rebels.
IRAN/l980/Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing/Raid to rescue Embassy
hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get
involved in revolution.
LIBYA/l981/Naval jets/Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.
EL SALVADOR/l981-?/Command operation/U.S. mercenaries, military advisors,
overflights aid anti-rebel war.
NICARAGUA/l981-90/Command operation, naval/CIA funds, trains, equips and
directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.
HONDURAS/l982-?/Troops/Maneuvers help build bases near borders.
LEBANON/l982-84/Naval, bombing, troops/Marines expel PLO and back Christian
Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions.
GRENADA/l983-84/Troops, bombing/Invasion four years after socialist
revolution. U.S. installs puppet government.
LIBYA/l986/Bombing, naval/Air strikes try to topple nationalist gov't.
BOLIVIA/1987/Troops/Coast Guard and Army assists raids on cocaine region.
IRAN/l987-88/Naval, bombing/US intervenes on side of Iraq in Gulf War.
LIBYA/1989/Naval jets/Two Libyan jets shot down.
VIRGIN ISLANDS/1989/Troops/St. Croix Black unrest after storm.
PHILIPPINES/1989/Jets/Air cover provided for government against coup.
PANAMA/1989-?/Troops, bombing/Nationalist government ousted by invasion.
U.S. installs puppet government and refuses to hold new elections.
LIBERIA/1990-?/Troops/Foreigners evacuated during civil war; troops protect
CIA communications/listening post.
SAUDI ARABIA/1990-?/Troops, jets/Iraq countered after invading Kuwait.
Forces also in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.
IRAQ/1990-?/Naval, bombing, troops/Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports;
large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.
KUWAIT/1991-?/Naval, bombing, troops/Attacks on Iraqi military; effort to
return dictatorial royal family to throne.
"Iraq was probably a good excuse to get revenge for 9/11 for Bush, whether or not they had anything to do with it. And it was probably good for him politically b/c he thought he might be re-elected by it, but dont think all Americans like it."
72% of Americans supported the war at the beginning:
Now that the US bodycount is going up, and no solution is in sight, they've stopped being so cheerful and gung-ho about it. But that's just so typical of the US: it's a rogue state and a bully, and the US public are happy to be dropping missiles and cluster bombs on foreign cities as long as they think they'll get away with it.
That enough facts for you?
Phil
sad
26.02.2004 15:58
eric
Fighting and dying
26.02.2004 17:05
Mick
Not tool time
26.02.2004 19:54
What one has to understand in this situation is that the mujihadeen(sp?) will dump weapons, and try and blend back into the population. I am confident that if these guys were not killed, they would later be involved in killing coalition soldiers, Iraqi Police, or even civilians. I'm not taking an irrational stance on this one, i'll save my accusations and battles for a more clear case of an injustice.
Finally, the Apache was too far away to be heard.
Guy
Bullshit
26.02.2004 20:31
Rad
You People Need To Open Your Eyes
26.02.2004 23:43
GI JOE
You need to open your eyes
27.02.2004 09:22
Bullshit. There were no terrorists in Iraq threatening to attack the USA when Saddam was in power. You sure as hell made a whole new crop of them by going in though. Nice one.
"We as a country, as a whole, sent our MILITARY in to relinquish the problem forcefully!!
Yeah, we all wish you would relinquish the problem forcefully:
"I'm tired of seeing US SOLDIERS DIE EVERYDAY..."
Then start campaigning to bring them home. Every extra day they stay out there means more boys and girls dying.
Per
Per Phil
27.02.2004 23:04
You read, watch, listen...to news, websites, radio, people and believe every freak'n word. Phil, you can site a million references if you want, but you are still a freak'n idiotic jerk. Same for you, Per...and the rest of you copy machines/recorders. Unless you were at any of the meetings held among any of the people who were/are in conflict with others, YOU HAVE NO PROOF OF WHY THINGS ARE HAPPENING THE WAY THE DID/ARE.
The media publishes what they feel gets the most reaction. You idiots just bend over and let them shove all of their biased and personally opionated information straight up your asses. Then you try to repeat the parts that grabbed your attention the most, leaving some parts out, right after you got the info from a source that already cut out info too.
I believe in "invading" other countries to help the helpless. I personally wish the US or some other country that is also not a coward to go to Sudan and stop the Jihad that is happening there. Oh, you do not know what is happening there, then talk to Dennis Bennett who runs Servant's Hearts (helping the helpless). I think you will understand...well maybe some of you.
Hey Per, you fuck'n numbnut, ask your girlfriend if she enjoyed the freedom of being able to be educated in the US, unlike the women were able to in MANY middle eastern countries. Oh, and I am sure you will want to criticize the education she/you got, whatever makes you happy. You get out, what you put in.
Erudite
US media and education
28.02.2004 08:14
The fact is that the US is far less free than most European countries. Come and visit, and see for youself. Public services are badly underfunded in the US. You can't "get out what you put in" from a school with chronic underfunding, demoralised & underpaid teachers, gun problems among the students, lack of proper facilities, not enough textbooks, etc. Maybe this is why functional illiteracy is so high in the US:
49% functional illiteracy, compared to 16% in Canada. Are all those millions of Americans not "putting in" enough? Or maybe your system is broken.
Bush is now completing the task of destroying public education in America, while he hands billions in tax cuts to the rich, and spends 6 billion a month on his idiotic oil wars.
As for your charge of media bias, I have never seen such a right-wing, pro-war biased media as you've got in the US.
From Project Censored.org:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The eleven largest or most influential media corporations in the United States are General Electric Company (NBC), Viacom Inc. (cable), The Walt Disney Company (ABC), Time Warner Inc.(CNN), Westinghouse Electric Corporation (CBS), The News Corporation Ltd. (Fox), Gannett Co. Inc., Knight-Ridder Inc., New York Times Co., Washington Post Co., and the Times Mirror Co. These eleven major broadcast and print media corporations now represent a major portion of the news information systems in the US. For most Americans their entire source of news and information comes from these eleven corporations.
Collectively, these eleven major media corporations had 155 directors in 1996. These 155 directors, a group small enough to fit in a medium-size university classroom, also hold 144 directorships on the boards of Fortune 1,000 corporations in the United States. They are the media elite of the world. While they may not agree on abortion and other domestic issues, they do represent the collective vested interests of a significant portion of corporate America and share a common commitment to free market capitalism, economic growth, internationally protected copyrights, and a government dedicated to protecting their interests.
The eleven media organizations have interlocking directorships with each other through 36 other Fortune 1,000 corporations creating a solid network of overlapping interests and affiliations. All eleven media corporations have direct links with at least two of the other top media organizations. General Electric, owner of NBC, has the highest rate of shared affiliations with 17 direct corporate links to nine of 10 other media corporations.
Given this interlocked media network, it is more than safe to say that major media in the United States effectively represent the interests of corporate America, and that the media elite are the watchdogs of acceptable ideological messages, the parameters of news and information content, and the general use of media resources.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is why whenever a journalist strays from the corporate line, they get slapped down or sacked.
It's another manifestation of how unfree and straitjacketed the US electorate is. In one sense we cannot blame you for your ignorance and insularity, since they only ever hear a few close variations on one narrow corporate line of opinion from your media. But eyewitness reports can be found all over the internet. But you have to WANT to find it: it won't get handed to you on a plate.
Finally, yes I know well what is going on in the Sudan. It is well-reported here. But please remember what happened the last time you tried to invade Somalia, before you go wishing for another invasion.
`Per
German Panorama TV investigates Apache footage
28.02.2004 18:34
A German TV producer picked up the story on journalism.co.uk on 14 January and investigated further. He's spoken to a former US general that confirms this tape shows an illegal action - plus another tape of footage broadcast on CNN in October.
Check out the link for more details...
Jemima Kiss
e-mail:
jemima@journalism.co.uk
Homepage:
http://www.journalism.co.uk
if you can´t see...
29.02.2004 00:12
sammy
e-mail:
sammy@pammy.com
Yes, you're blind.
29.02.2004 11:23
Lt. General Robert Gard had a 31-year career in the Army. His last assignment was as president of National Defense University. He's now president emeritus of Monterey Institute for International Studies. Maybe you should phone him up, and explain to him where he went wrong.
Bill Z
Translation of Panorama documentary
29.02.2004 12:19
Shooting the wounded - US soldiers as war criminals
Presentation: Anja Reschke
They wanted to bring liberty to Iraq and establish a stable democracy. That was the avowed goal of the US government for the last Gulf War. The Americans continue to hold to this project, and the own soldiers daily give their lives. But the confidence into their good intentions is shaken if the peacebringers should emerge as war criminals. Volker Steinhoff offers shocking photographs, which document offences against international law valid world-wide.
Commentary:
The grey pictures- in Iraq, everyday life. Pictures, which none can see anymore. Daily new victims: US soldier, policeman, civilians. And only rarely, compassion for the murdered ones. US soldiers hunt their militant opponents. Quite understandably. But there are so far hardly any pictures of this hunt. 1st December last year, the war is long past. An Apache helicopter of the 4th Infantry Division starts on the terrorist hunt. The pilots discover three people on a road north of Baghdad. The photographs from the American helicopter document the consequences.
Sound with subtitles:
"A big truck over here, he is having a little pow-wow."
"Yeah."
Commentary:
The pictures are passed to the television network ABC. The camera in the Apache helicopter films everything, also noting radio traffic. And in this way, shocking minutes of a crime develop. First is a person at the car, takes an article out and starts.
Sound with subtitles:
"I got a guy running, throwing a weapon."
"Smoke him."
Commentary:
Before the US soldier in the helicopter shoots with its 30-mm-cannon shoots at the people, he inquires for safety's sake one more time.
Sound with subtitles:
"Hit him."
"Got him."
"Good."
"Second one."
"Hit the other one."
"Hit the truck."
"Go to the right, see if anyone's moving by the truck."
"Take the trucks out?"
"Is there anybody in the truck? Wait for movement."
"Have not seen any."
Commentary:
Then nevertheless, another person moves.
Sound with subtitles:
"Store that - auto range store."
"There's another guy moving, right there."
"Good. Fire."
"Hit him."
"Target 4."
"We take the other truck out?"
"Roger."
"Wait for movement by the truck."
"Movement right there."
"Roger."
"He's wounded."
"Hit him."
"He's in the truck."
"Hit the truck and him."
"Go forward of it and hit him."
"Roger."
Commentary:
We show these photographs a former general of the US army. Above all one scene is remarkable to him:
Voiceover from General Robert Gard, US Army (translation):
"According to the pilot the Iraqi resistance fighter is wounded. Nevertheless, the instruction is to kill him. I think it would have made more sense much to arrest the wounded one, and interrogate him. But completely apart from that: the killing of a disabled, wounded opponent is forbidden. According to the Geneva convention, that’s murder."
Commentary:
And thereby it would be a war crime. A renowned German expert in international law also sees it similarly.
Professor Stefan Oeter (translation):
"International law sets that opposing combatants may be only fired at, so long as, how should I put this, are militarily active, and if they refrain from combat are required to be spared. Thus to that extent, the suspicion is that an offence against international law is present here, and serious offences against international law, against humanitarian international law, are war crimes."
Commentary:
The pictures - surely only one snapshot from the reality. A final judgement could be undertaken only after an exact investigation. But the US Department of Defense refuses all comment in relation to PANORAMA. The shots from the helicopter, in which a wounded person is shot - it has not been taken up as a topic for newspapers and public protests. It’s also not an isolated case.
8th April 2003, a suburb of Baghdad. During a search, American soldiers are threatened and commence shooting. CNN participates and films. An Iraqi is wounded because of the soil, the rifle beside him. The US soldiers shoot it nevertheless. After the hit, there is much rejoicing. The same fatal shot again, but in a much clearer version, which is available on the Internet.
Voiceover from US Marine Sgt. Anthony Riddle:
"Like, man, you guys are dead now, you know. But it was a good feeling. I mean, afterwards you're like, hell, yeah, that was awesome. Let's do it again."
We showed this scene to the former US general.
Voiceover from General Robert Gard: (translation)
"I consider this inexcusable. This didn’t happened in the center of wild combat. This was the cold-blooded murder of a severely wounded person."
Commentary:
Hard judgements, frightening pictures. But there are no public protests, nobody demanding accountability. With no accountability, the consequences are foreseeable.
Voiceover General Robert Gard (translation):
"If the Iraqis have the feeling that illegal killings are taking place, this will lead to revenge. And therefore at least one part of the resistance in this country will be stirred up."
Commentary:
"Revenge" - surely no excuse for the daily notices in the Iraq. But a welcome pretext for terrorists to sow further hatred. Not a good basis for peace and democracy.
Normally this would be a case which would have to be examined before the International Criminal Court in the Hague. But the present ICC agreement was never ratified by the American government. More information at
Report: Volker Steinhoff
Editor: Maja Schirdewan
Presenter: Anja Reschke
an IMC guy
New article
29.02.2004 12:50
many thanks to jemima for the link to the Panorama documentary.
IMC guy
We support our troops.
01.03.2004 13:26
From everything I've read about insane Huusain he was doing almost just like Stallon, and Hitler. This man needed out of power.
For those of you who read this and put your lives on the line by making decisions on wether its a shovel or a rifle, I support everything you do. Its your life to be making decisions with. Without you over there no one would have the right to free speech and be able to bitch in this forum like they are.
NOTICE: I never said wether anybody was right or wrong and never said anything about oil.
I am just a citezen who lets others volunteer for milatry service so I don't have to, but I support them 100%. These are the people who know whats going on. An armchair quarterback has never pulled a game out.
jimmyflood
True patriotism
01.03.2004 21:48
Use the brain God gave you.
Larry M
Good Job!! Too bad there were only three deaths:)
02.03.2004 01:37
p cowan
Are you STUPID????
04.03.2004 00:39
Shane
for those with nothing better to do
04.03.2004 07:12
gary
gary and meri
This war?
04.03.2004 09:20
You're not protecting us, you're putting us in danger. Get out now.
Mark
Enough with this!
07.03.2004 20:59
We were accused of getting involved in the 91 war against Iraq on behalf of Kuwait because of oil. Now that the "Coalition" (not just U.S.) has toppled the government over there where's the pipeline back to the Exxon next to my house. . .it's not there dumbasses, and the price of gasoline still keeps rising.
Let's not forget that while the embargo was on over there the French continued to have contact with Saddam, the Germans were rumored to have done the same. At the time the U.N. vote was on the table the French and Germans were too worried about the money Saddam owed them then the freedom of the Iraqi people. If it was about free oil I'm sure the French and Germans would have gone along.
Most of you are truly stupid. . .but take comfort in the fact that what the U.S. and the coalition are spreading is the right for dumbasses like yourselves to openly discuss events like these. So enjoy your freedom and to whoever is getting all that FREE oil. . .please send some my way, I've paid enough in taxes, lost friends and family over the past 20 years for it.
Bill
You bleeding hear liberals really do not have a clue...........
07.03.2004 22:58
After the war we found ourselves in another situation. Insurgents that didn't give a shit who they killed, coalition or Iraqi. More Iraqi policemen have been killed that US soldiers now, by people just like these.
So before you sit there on your high and mighty moral thrones and point a judgemental finger at someone maybe you should have walked a few miles in our desert boots. Maybe then you would understand. If after that you still see us as killers, well I guess your head is permanently stuck up your ass, at which there is no hope for you.
Scott Murphy
e-mail:
st_murphy@hotmail.com
Deluded
08.03.2004 09:54
US General Robert Gard says this is a video of a war crime perpetrated by US soldiers. Does he "not have a clue" either?
You had no reason to invade Iraq, and no right. Any decent person's sympathy is entirely with the 9,000+ civilians you've killed. You're a volunteer in a brutal imperial army, on its latest adventure abroad. Nobody forced you to sign up to this. The thousands of Iraqi dead and maimed, on the other hand, had no choice in the matter. Your country put Saddam in power, and kept him in power. You're the cause of the problem. Go elsewhere if you're looking for a shoulder to sob on.
You might see yourself as some sort of victim, but don't expect us to agree with you when all the evidence is against you.
Ray
billz
09.03.2004 17:53
How do you like that?
glad im not as stupid as you
Sources please?
09.03.2004 18:01
Jon
computer commados
12.03.2004 17:04
The net is a great invention but it has also been the source of millions of false claims, reports and stories.
I belive everything on the net!
So, you made it up. Thought so.
12.03.2004 19:57
General Ralph E. Fictitious
ARM CHAIR VIEWING.........
13.03.2004 17:46
THESE CREWS WENT THROUGH THESE QUESTIONS AND ESTIMATES, THERE CONCLUSION IS CLEAR TO SEE. HOWEVER IT IS ONLY THE COMMANDER WHO MAKES THIS CALL, THE COMMANDER IN THE APACHE LONGBOW COMMAND HELI IS THE COMMANDER TELLING HIS SUB-COMDS TO FIRE OR NOT.
THE SO WHAT AND WHAT IF QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED. IT TAKES FRIENDLY DEATHS AND CASUALTIES TO UNDERSTAND THESE, AND THEY KNOW EXCATLY WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF THEY DONT ENGAGE IN TIME, THEY GET FIRED UPON.
ANYWAY ENOUGH OF THIS SHIT, IF ONLY THE US ARMY WERE AS PROFESSIONAL AS US HM FORCES, THEY WOULD BE GOOD, BUT THEY ARE NOT INTO HAVING SKILL, JUST NUMBERS (AS CANNON FODDER). THE HIERACHY IN THE U S OF A HAVE THE FEELING OF ' JUST KEEP SENDING THEM IN, WE'VE GOT THOUSANDS LEFT!!!' WHERE AS US BRITS KNOW THE LESS WE SEND THE QUICKER IT WILL GET DEALT WITH, BUST.
OH AND AS FOR THE GERMAN SPEAKING BIT, FUCK OFF. CANNON FODDER! THATS ALL YOU WERE USED FOR, THEY SENT THE BRITISH AIRBORNE AND POLISH AIRBORNE FURTHER BEHIND ENEMY LINES THAN THE US OF A AIRBOURNE.
SEE YOU AROUND
BRITISH PARA
You're Crazy
14.03.2004 20:58
Jim
What was your country founded upon?
15.03.2004 11:03
Michael
The truth about the truth
17.03.2004 16:42
Another thing is that any opposition against anything will always get the headlines. This is true with "bad news". You hardly ever will see "good news" or demonstrations that support things. This is just the way society is. So when you see a group of demonstrators against the war, that is just the minority, but they are getting the limelight, because it is the way "news" is broadcasted.
just me
Poll in Iraq
17.03.2004 18:26
And read the whole poll: 79 percent said they have no confidence in the US-led forces now occupying Iraq, and 73 per cent have a similar lack of trust in the Coalition Provisional Authority and Paul Bremer.
---------------
Poll: Most Iraqis distrustful of US-led coalition
( 2003-12-02 10:10) (Agencies)
The vast majority of Iraqis are deeply mistrustful of the US-led coalition that is occupying their country, even if they're happy Saddam Hussein is history, suggests the preliminary results of a major public opinion poll.
Fewer than one per cent of the 3,244 Iraqis interviewed by Oxford Research International, in conjunction with Oxford University's sociology department, bemoaned the fall of Saddam's regime after the March invasion.
But 79 per cent said they have no confidence in the US-led forces now occupying Iraq, according to a summary of the poll's findings released Monday by Oxford Research International, a private research organization.
Seventy-three per cent had a similar lack of trust in the Coalition Provisional Authority, led by Paul Bremer.
On the other hand, 70 per cent had confidence in Iraq's religious leaders, and 54 per cent in their "mukhtars" or local leaders.
Oxford Research International said its survey was "the first truly representative national study in the recent history of the country," with a total of 46 fieldworkers fanning out across Iraq for a month from mid-October.
Christopher Sahm, an Oxford University sociologist who co-ordinated the project, which used Oxford-trained Iraqi interviewers, said he was struck by the mixed feelings among Iraqis.
Whereas 42 per cent said the best thing of the past 12 months was the fall of Saddam's regime soon after the US and British invasion in March, 35 per cent said the worst thing was the war, bombings and defeat.
"There appears no obvious link between best and worst thing," Sahm said. "The very troops which liberated Iraqis from Saddam are the most mistrusted institution in Iraq today."
Other findings from the survey:
-- For the next 12 months, 36 per cent of Iraqis said they worry most about their security and the spectre of Iraq drifting into chaos or civil war. Only one per cent fret over a withdrawal of US-led forces.
-- The number-one priority for 67 per cent is restoring public security. Dealing with members of Saddam's regime was "no priority at all" for 91 per cent.
-- Ninety per cent said Iraq now needs democracy. Sixty-four per cent said a future administration cannot include a role for the Coalition Provisional Authority.
-- Fifty-four per cent disagreed with the idea of a UN transition government, although the United Nations enjoys the best confidence rating (35 per cent) of any non-Iraqi institution.
-- For all they've gone through, "people in Iraq are not particularly unhappy with their lives," the poll found, with Iraqis having a life satisfaction rating of 5.7 on a scale of one to 10. That's roughly comparable with South Africa and South Korea (6.0 each).
-- Monthly net household incomes in Iraq average 124 dollars (103.50 euros), though 22 per cent make do with 50 dollars or less.
-- Just one respondent said "dying for Islam" would be the best thing in 2004.
Oxford Research International said its results were "mainly based on simple statistics such as per centages," and that some of the findings might not stand the test of secondary analysis to be carried out in the coming weeks.
Mark
Polls?
18.03.2004 02:48
Maybe ordinary Iraqi civilians would trust the US forces more, if the soldiers stopped bombing and shooting civilians all the time. Somewhere between 8,581 and 10,430 civilian deaths so far as I write this:
Jerry L
Get Educated!!!
22.03.2004 04:50
2. This war IS NOT about oil. America has A LOT of oil in Alaska that is easier to get. Plus, acquiring more oil from the middle east would hurt America's economy, rather than help it...why???? Because getting that oil would put a lot of American oil companies out of business. How do I know? My family owns an oil company.
3. President George Bush is a Christian. He seeks answers and help from the only one that can help.
4. President George Bush does not make ALL of the decisions for America. Many of his ideas are intercepted, voted down and changed, before anything gets done.
5. This war, the many to come, and the many that have all ready occurred, are all about GOOD fighting EVIL. Who's good and who's evil? Saddam is an evil man. He IS a weapon of mass destruction. He trajically hurt people in his country for not following his evil ways, and he did not want his evil to be confined just to Iraq. He was a threat to the people living near him and to America, and to ANY other country he wanted.
6. America DOES have many non-Christian people holding high postions in the government, making very immoral decisions. So far, America has not, in any way, declared war on another country and then claimed it to be theirs. America DOES bring democratic ideas for leadership to those countries that loose an evil ruler. America HAS brought war techniques into other countries, removing leaders who have threatened America, and/or leaders who are extremely evil, who hurt people in those countries.
7. Every single country has some member of their government/power who is evil. Those people seek immoral things and make poor decisions too.
8. The Taliban made threats against Spain...look what happened. Britian is on that list too. Yes, so is America, amongst others.
9. The Taliban is funded by evil people. The evil needs to be stopped.
If somebody broke into your home and killed your family, then left a note saying they would be back to kill more of your family...and you knew who they where, and who trained them to pick your lock and who provided them with the weapon to kill your family...would you just sit back and let them do it again?
me
"My family owns an oil company"
22.03.2004 09:52
"President George Bush is a Christian. He seeks answers and help from the only one that can help."
Oh, you're talking about Jesus? Maybe you and your fellow oil-businessman Dubya should read what Jesus actually said before claiming to be one of His followers. You evil men will all be called to account when Christ returns.
Randall
These comments are sad
23.03.2004 08:13
EVEN if it turns out that these ppl were not enemies, its not like the US government is ordering these soldiers to slaugther iraqis whenever they damn well please. We are over in iraq trying to make a difference. All of you idiots who say its for OIL are dumb, most of the US oil supply DOESNT even come from iraq, so why would we waste lives and money to take down saddam? o yea, because he was a ruthless dictator who was slaughtering 180 of his own people on average each damn week (or was it day? cant remember). Any of you who think that we are in iraq because of 9/11 are dumb. 9/11 has NOTHING to do with it. We are there because there was reason to believe that saddam had WOMD (weapons of mass destruction). Even if we dont find any, he still violated UN resolutions for weapons inspections so that's enough cause for us to take action. Think about it, if you didn't have any weapons, then why would you so steadfastly refuse inspectors to come through?
Some people have already said it "better them than us". If these ppl that got killed were innocent, then yea thats sad. but if the soldiers felt that they were a threat, then im sorry. any one of us would protect our own lives if we felt threatened would we?
D.
Easy solution to your problem
23.03.2004 08:57
The USA re-instated full diplomatic ties with the Saddam regime on the same day that the UN report about his slaughter came out, and has now invaded Iraq illegally, even after the UN Security Council voted against it. Do you really expect us to believe you went in to uphold the will of the UN?
John
Everyone hates the U.S.
24.03.2004 12:58
My time over here has further reinforced my love for the U.S. and it's friends like Britain. Some of you folks do have great memories of how Saddam came to power. . .woo what a hayday that was and we're sure glad you keep bringing that up. At the time we backed him there wasn't really a better choice. . .we can't do anything about that now except get reminded of it by others. In following their logic though we were responsible for him being in power, he did bad things and we stepped up to fix the problem. . .the folks who comment otherwise would have us just say woops and move on.
Bill
Clarification
25.03.2004 21:03
"we're sure glad you keep bringing that up."
Rumsfeld, the man in the photo above, is still in charge of Iraq policy. He put Saddam there. He did business with Saddam, ignored condemnation by the UN and many countries, encouraged him to attack his neigbors and his own people, and allowed US companies to supply him with bioweapons and other WMD. What the fuck do you expect us to do? Forget all about it, forgive Rumsfeld, "move on"? The man in charge of your army's a fucking criminal, and deserves to rot in jail.
"At the time we backed him there wasn't really a better choice. . .we can't do anything about that now except get reminded of it by others."
Of course there was a better choice. Quit buddying up with evil murderers like Saddam, Bin Laden, Dostum, Ismail Khan, Suharto, Pinochet, Noriega, Stroessner, the Saudi royal family, Karimov, etc. etc. Quit trying to run the planet. Stay home. Mind your own fucking business for a change, and leave the rest of us alone.
L. Metzger
B.S.
27.03.2004 16:04
chris
Walmart Wisdom
29.03.2004 02:01
He did look pretty suspicious, lying there on the ground, wounded and all. Maybe he's contemplating shoplifting something from aisle 6. No wonder they had to shred him with a fucking 30mm cannon from a mile away. Thanks for your input, Corporal K-Mart.
Tony M
War is War
02.04.2004 20:28
Trippster
Bullshit
03.04.2004 01:10
Anti-bullshit
Farmers,yea,thats it.
03.04.2004 15:11
Give me a break,just farmers?Oh,O.K.Pull youre frikin heads out.
Mess with the best,die like the rest.If we wanted to,we could take the whole middle east out,and you know it.We could start by flying over Mecca with 20,000 pounds of pigs blood.Then what? What are you sorry sand rags going to do about it.
David
e-mail:
hikerdave1@yahoo.com
American cowards
04.04.2004 04:14
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 10:57 AM
Subject: (no subject)
Lets see.Hum,lets start with something easy,1 + 1 = 2 can you understand that?
Good. Now, lets try,2 + 2= 4 very good.The reason we are in Iraq you moron is because they invaded a neighboring country,we went in and kiked their ass out.Are you with me so far. Good.They agreed to a seace fire,and 17 U.N. resolutions,(got it so far) They broke the resolutions,and,the seace fire by shooting at american aircraft in the no fly zone.(got it,ya catching on? Very Good!)Mass murder,torture chambers,rape rooms,is the picture coming into vocus yet.Get a clue you frikin retard.
And here's my answer... ;o)
You no name/nickname coward,
Just as american as I imagined... And this american thinks that his maths skills can impress me ;o) No seriously... You're just as I expected. Your "private" answer to my public message is just a proof of your inferiority. You tried to insult me (which I didn't) and tried to convince me with your lame "proofs"... accusing everybody of doing what americans always do (the U.N rules are broken by americans 90% of the time) No, seriously... I think you should revise everything... Let's try to remove the words "moron", "stupid" and "retard" from your vocabulary, because it only gives everybody a good reason to kick your ass (as you so proudly said in your e-mail)... which happened... and which will happen again if you don't change your attitude... Actually, I think it will happen again after reading such an e-mail because it proves that you will keep on attacking people without any valid reason. The only thing you proved with your e-mail is that you didn't learn anything from what happened.
Oh, just by the way... Hitler had arguments that I would compare to yours... He used to say that jewish people used to rape, kill and torture everybody...
Before saying everybody is a moron... try to elect someone who isn't one. :o)
Yours truly...
P.S. Go see the forum... It might be interresting... :o)
Crow
e-mail:
darknightcrow@hotmail.com
In addition to my last comment...
05.04.2004 01:45
And overall... when they insult you, they don't even give a valid e-mail address so you can give your comments afterwards... THAT is coward...
Crow
To: Randall
06.04.2004 04:16
I feel pity for you thinking what I wrote was a lie. Apparently you forgot to read the title of my comment: "Get Educated." There is no shame in what my parents do, because they are very Christian people. My father was given a gift of knowledge about Geology, so he used it to find oil in the United States. When he is not working that job, he is doing ministries in prisons in America, or teaching CBS classes (Christian Bible Study), or writing a lesson plan for Bible School, or preparing a Sermon for his church... He plans on leaving his business soon to become a missionary and HELP THE HELPLESS.
My family and I are looking forward to the day that we have to face God. Just because we live in America and own an oil company does not mean that we agree with ALL people in our government. George Bush DOES NOT make all of the decisions for America. He is not the one to blame for this war, evil is. What is happening may very well be apart of God's plan. Why? I do not know. Ask God yourself.
Will all of you people stop complaining about what is happening and what other people are doing, and start PRAYING for help...and not just for others, but also for yourself.
Randall, do not judge my family or me, you do not know us. We are trying, with all of our might, to be good and honest; yet we still sin. And do not judge America, because you do not know everybody residing in the country. Judge yourself. Where are you in this journey through life? What have you done to save others? How can you use your gifts and talents to be a better person; kind and forgiving?
Feel free to respond, but I do not plan on returning to this website. It is depressing and full of hate. And frankly, I do not want to subject myself to the rude remarks made by the confused souls of some people who are lost in this life. I have already prayed for you Randall, and I will continue to pray for you and others here, that we all refrain from hate and anger, and re-direct that energy towards good actions.
me
Sickening hypocrisy
06.04.2004 08:00
In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said:
"21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"
23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."
While you're praying for me, will you also pray for the 10,000 Iraqi civilian dead, killed by the hate and anger of the USA?
You write:
"George Bush DOES NOT make all of the decisions for America. He is not the one to blame for this war, evil is. What is happening may very well be apart of God's plan. Why? I do not know."
"Evil" is to blame for the war? Did "evil" drop the cluster bombs on civilian areas? Did "evil" falsify evidence, lie to the Congress, lie to the UN, lie to the American people on TV, to tie Sadaam to September 11, and justify the invasion that Bush's cabinet have been planning out of office since 1997? Did "evil" force Rumsfeld to restore diplomatic relations with Saddam's regime on the day the UN report came about his nerve-gassing his own people? Did "evil" ship the bioweapons from the US to Saddam's labs? Did "evil" force the US rep at the UN to veto votes against Saddam repeatedly while he was attacking Iran, or was it the US?
So none of these actions were the faults of individuals, it was "evil" that did it. How very convenient for you. It may ease your conscience now to say that no-one is reponsible for the acts of butchery perpetrated by the US in the invasion, but don't bother justifying yourself to me pal, cause I'm not the one who'll be judging you. And your willful ignorance today will not help you when the time comes.
Randall
War Crimes???
07.04.2004 19:37
Sgt
Just one point of view
08.04.2004 00:23
-Semper Fi
Sgt USMC
1984, twenty years on
10.04.2004 20:56
There you have it: KILLING SAVES LIVES. Just the latest "NewSpeak", from our Big Brother in the USA.
And rememember: "we have always been at war with Oceania".
Dave
Proud to be American
13.04.2004 16:43
Mark
e-mail:
Basball123@aol.com
Think about this...
13.04.2004 20:51
The United States has NBA, NFL, MLB, NASCAR, NHRA, PGA, PBA, etc. The United States has the best movies and actors. The United States has the best recreational areas to go fishing and camping. I can go on for hours.
While things may not be perfect and there are some decisions that I personally may not agree with, the United States is still the most preferred country to live in. For some reason, I don't notice many refugees trying to get into Iraq, Iran, China, Russia, France, Spain, Mexico....
There is a reason why we have our freedoms and abilities to live a life that other countries wish they could!
And, for the Unitest States supporters, for every one that opposes the US, there are 10 times that many that are in support! Unfortunately, it is easier to report on the smaller numbers.
read enough
Randall
13.04.2004 20:57
Did evil account for these WMD that he said he destroyed?
Did evil kick out the UN when they wanted to inspect?
Did evil posion his own people?
Did evil break the arm of his own son while he was in the hospital?
Did evil amputate 5 shop owner's arms as a "scare" technique blaming them for the collapse of the economy? Incidentally, those 5 are here in Houston to get prostetics fitted, FREE OF CHARGE from who???? Evil US right?
Did evil run a regime based on terror?
Now for the new evil:
Is evil blatently executing soldiers?
Is evil committing terroristic acts on thier own people?
Is evil resorting to dressing as civilians to commit terrorism?
Is evil kidnapping civilians who are trying to rebuild the country?
Is evil firing from supposedly sacred mosques?
Who is evil here?
Don't give me this evil US Bullshit!
Evil replies
Thanks for clearing that up
13.04.2004 20:58
And how can anyone say that a war crime has been committed here, since the USA has NASCAR, NBA, and great fishing and camping.
You people have a fucking huge wakeup call coming.
Nathan
Dave you are an idiot
13.04.2004 21:01
Gees o freakin mighty...
hoping to never be on your side
Evil
13.04.2004 21:11
Did evil account for these WMD? No, the evil US refuse to let inspectors in.
Did evil kick out the UN when they wanted to inspect? Yes, the evil bastards in the White house pulled the inspectors out, then later claimed Saddam kicked them out.
Did evil poison its own people? Yes, the USA used its own soldiers as guinea pigs to test bioweapons and nukes.
Did evil break the arm of his own son while he was in the hospital? No, I don't recollect Bush ever doing that.
Did the evil US rain missiles and cluster bombs down on cities full of civilians as a "shock and awe" technique, blaming Saddam for the collapse of the economy afterwards? Yes.
Incidentally, those 5 in Houston are getting prosthetics fitted, FREE OF CHARGE from who???? The evil US who blew them off in the first place, and can't manage to run the hospitals in Iraq now that the country has been destroyed. How grateful the victims must be.
Did evil run a regime based on terror? Yes, backed up all the way by the USA, until he stopped obeying orders.
Now for the new evil: Is the evil US blatantly executing soldiers? Yes, the US is doing that. And so is the UK. Thanks for noticing.
Is the evil US committing terroristic acts on their own people? No, they rented Bin Laden to do that: much cheaper, and easier to cover up. But earlier plans for committing terrorism against their own people are well documented, in the Northwoods Memo and elsewhere.
Is evil resorting to dressing as civilians to commit terrorism? The US hasn't had to do that on the battlefield for a long time, not since the Revolutionary War. But the CIA have never stopped dressing up as civilians and committing terrorism.
Is evil kidnapping civilians who are trying to rebuild the country? No, it's shooting the ones who haven't been bombed with uranium shells and cluster bombs.
Is evil bombing sacred mosques? Yes, and they have promised to go on bombing them.
Who is evil here? The facts speak for themselves.
Randall
General Robert Gard must also be an idiot
13.04.2004 21:15
Or, do you suggest that we actually establish that it's a weapon first... Gees o freakin mighty...
Jarhead Moron
Hit'im Again
14.04.2004 22:28
rich
Nothing wrong with that attack
17.04.2004 17:08
Roger
Erring on the side of murder
18.04.2004 11:50
You mean erring on the side of killing. Arresting them would have been caution. Killing someone you're not sure might or might not be a threat isn't caution, it's a war crime.
Joe
Iraqi's life is not life. Good. Very Good
22.04.2004 08:56
Call me US hatter if you want
Anti American Bastard!
23.04.2004 04:05
An American Citizen
Steve
go apache jocks!!!!!!
24.04.2004 00:51
mark these words peaceniks-the goal of islam is to destroy to judeo-christian way of life.the apache video shows three less mohammedans for my children to worry about.
Proud American
The Truth on the Object being thrown
26.04.2004 01:02
Truth Teller
Rifle evidence
26.04.2004 13:18
spanner
Analysis from 5000km away is as accurate as the CIA
27.04.2004 14:19
1. How long was the Apache on station?
2. What other units were on the ground?
3. What is the current situation?
4. How can you tell night/dat from the video?
5. How can you tell a plow from this video? I can't and I'm a former combat officer!
So on and so forth. BTW, An Apache heard if it is downwind or a battle is in progress
And course you want to hide an RPG launcher...so that you can use it again.
The CIA turned desert into WMD's and you turned a combat video into.....idiotic, jingoistic, euro-centric stupidity. Do you work for the CIA's Directorate of Analysis? Because your analysis is absolutely worthless.
Javier
e-mail:
jarroyolaw@rocketmail.com
FUD about analysis
27.04.2004 15:27
And the time of the incident isn't that hard to work out. The time indicator on the HUD reads 16:25, or 4:25PM. The clock is set to zulu time (GMT), and Baghdad is 3 hours ahead of GMT, so the actual time is 7:25PM.
D. Richardson
Midnight Farmers
27.04.2004 17:26
Rob
WTF
30.04.2004 15:41
Allah agbuddy
Bleeding heart liberals
01.05.2004 09:38
muslims are the free worlds enemy, constraints put upon the free world is being taken advantage of by our enemy, thank god we have America.
I am neither American or British.
Richard
Taking war crimes seriously
01.05.2004 11:28
Attitudes like the one above are responsible for sick bastards like Bush and Blair getting to power. "Ah fuck it, there's already so much evil going on, I won't bother to do a single fucking thing.", that's what you're saying.
Edmund Burke said: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good
men to do nothing."
Tom
Bleeding heart liberals
01.05.2004 13:19
Some of the “technical” comment/conclusions are preposterous in the extreme, clearly made by children, or those who wish not to see the reality of the world we live in, or the enemy we face.
muslims have proved themselves to be the free worlds enemy, constraints put upon the free world, is being used against us, and we are being taken advantage of, by our enemy, who have no such constraints, thank god we have a Country with some balls, keep it up America.
I am neither American nor British.
Richard
OH well!
03.05.2004 13:05
Mark
e-mail:
nuttynut@ntlworld.com
Red Eye
03.05.2004 14:02
I cant believe how dumb people are saying its a farm tool and people looking for anything to put the conspiracy theory on the us. The footage makes me sick and things like that should not be showed to the public.
Any lose of life is a terrible thing and its sad people dont learn how bad war is from thier elders
will
Suffering...at its' best
03.05.2004 15:21
David c. Michigan
e-mail:
chifane@yahoo.com
Just Deserts
03.05.2004 15:46
Ian Klauss
e-mail:
phal6970@bigpond.net.au
Not murder just Standard Operation Procedure
04.05.2004 07:21
Passionate debate about what little we know.
I did observe one thing that is really important to me
on the credibility of these soldiers.
It was pragmatic discourse with decisions based upon the
hostile's actions. Otherwise, if it was a "war crime"
they would have been just shot without observation of who or
what they were doing. Remember, these guys don't wear uniforms!!!
It is "war" and unfortunately no time for juries to decide
guilt. So, as the audio dictates there were step by step
decisions made based upon what was observed and what the hostiles
did. It did look very suspicious and none of them looke very surprised
when the first got shot. One hurried and the other hit the deck. That
looks like hostiles to me, not innocent farmers!
Having said all that, I would like to add: It is a shocking video with
reality check of what war is about. Us monday quarterbacks maybe
should shutup more and listen rather than judge!
Rob
Rob
War crimes and deliberate action
04.05.2004 08:43
No, war crimes can be committed deliberately and with full foreknowledge, or as snap decisions. The fact the pilots took step by step decisions and obeyed an order doesn't change the fact that they deliberately and knowingly shot the wounded man on the ground. That's what General Gard is referring to when he says that a war crime appears to have taken place.
Jon
usa=trigger happy
04.05.2004 09:59
Spen
Got more?
05.05.2004 07:31
John Denny
Sickening Comments
06.05.2004 13:07
As i have read through these posts i was sickened. First by the blind stupid comments of people who seem to think these people are innocent and that one of them is a girl "because of the way she runs" I am a video analyst and have spent a few hours on this video..
Seriously first off, the guys are very suspicious, looking around, checking no one sees them before they run into the fields. You can see from this 100% they do not know the helicopter is there, the apache can fire its cannon at up to 2km so it could be a way off.
Secondly they place the two objects in the field as though they are incriminating, this is sure, they run up, drop them and run away, running back to check if they are visible. From the grainy pictures you can see the one with the smaller object (grenades, rockets for the launcher?) places it in one of the ruts of the already plowed field. Why so carefully hide it if its just a farming tool?
Finally when the tractor drives up it stops when it reaches the long implement (which is about the size of a shoulder launch anti aircraft tube)
Now im not 100% sure about this but it looks to me like the 2nd guy to die sees or hears the helecopter, watch how he motions the tractor driver out and then hurries round the side of the tractor. You can tell when the people are facing the towards the chopper as the hotter whiter part of their faces show. The tractor driver gets up, glances over, walks across the field, glances over. Coincidence? The 2nd man is already unwrapping the object under the tractor. Now at this point there is no doubt he sees the first man die. Its brutal to say, but parts fly near him and the noise would be loud. He continues, now in a panicky manner to unwrap the bundle... Farming equipment? He didnt notice the other man die. Watch the debris, think about it.
The only problem i have with this video is the final man to die, he does nothing, but he was there, he was aiding them. He does come out from under the van, from the video its impossible to tell why, to look for the helecopter? To try to get a pot shot? Is he waving his surrender?
One thing i would say is lives have been saved by this action of that there is no doubt, using rocket launchers in built up areas causes civilian deaths and military casualties. The soldiers/terrorists killed here have voulenteered, they have no government, they are killing for personal gain, their own ideals. The soldiers they are fighting and innocents havent chosen to fight. They (the 3 in the video) more then any other person killed in iraq are responsible for their own plight.
My second point which sickened me more is the comments of Americans here stating British would be speaking german if it wasnt for them. Britain fought more of the war then america. The British air force defeated hitlers airforce. Canadians, Indians, Free french, italians, polish, australians, africans and many more countries fought for longer then the americans, and fought following d-day. DO NOT SITE THE AMERICANS AS SAVING EUROPE JUST BECAUSE YOUR FILMS SHOW ONLY AMERICANS FIGHTING. If it were not for the other countries then america would be talking german as you put it. If first Europe had rolled over, america would never have stood alone against germany. America got fat from selling europe arms while it waited for the germans to weaken, most americans were too self centered to want to get involved. Only by Britain taking the attacks in the very heart of our cities were you able to build tanks and planes safely ready for when you would get involved...
Finally if we are to say who saved who on the amount they did as so many of you like to state, then if not for Russia we would all be dead. As the russians took on the greatest amount of german soldiers. Destroyed the most aircraft and tanks and lost the most soldiers throughout the war... Learn your history before posting your ignorant comments.
To those americans who do not agree with the statements of those who class themselves as sole saviours of europe i apologise.
Dominico
Un-american activities
07.05.2004 08:15
Liberty Leash
Freedom Hood
American means to betray Shiites to Hussein and back up the abolition with result of 200.000 killed Shiites in 1993
American means to kill over 1.000.000 Iraqis in concequence of a twelve year embargo
American means to kill over 100.000 Afghans in conequence illegal raid
American means to jail thirteen year old kids as 'Terrorists' in Guantanamo
American means to jail and torture foreigners in Guantanamo without any accusation and law
American means to lie to whole world and UNO to start a raid on Iraq based on fictional threats
American means to disregard international law
American means to disregard preventive International Court of Justice to hedge future American War crimes
American means to kill over 60.000 Iraqi conscripts in the raid in 2003 founded on lies about WMD
American means to kill over 15.000 Iraqi civilians to gain access to oil
American means to raze a nation to the ground
and American means to torture and assassinate people as sub human beings "They're all animals" because they don't celebrate their murder as deliverer
I am proud to be un-American
Dave
US RECORD ON PUNISHING ITS SERVICEMEN
07.05.2004 14:03
Although Lt Calley (excuse the spelling in case I got it wrong) was tried and convicted of a massacre of 400 civilians in Mai-Lai in Vietnam, he was pardoned and never spent a single day in prison.
The captain of the US Warship that shot down an Iranian Airbus airliner in the Persian Gulf was never reprimanded. A commission even concluded that he acted well based on the information he had at his disposal. When in doubt about the security of Americans, shoot at innocent foreign people if necessary is the message.
Another US warship shot at and hit a Turk warship during exercises. No reprimand.
A US Navy A6 Intruder crew took their aircraft on an unauthorised joy ride in an Italian valley a few years ago and flew through and severed the cable of a cable car with over 80 people on board, who all fell to their death. The first thing the pilot did after landing was to remove and destroy the videotape of his flight that contained images of the whole incident. He was flown to the States and was not convicted of any crime.
More recently, a couple of US F-16 pilots eager to kill anyone they could find claimed that Canadian troops training at night with small arms had fired at them while they were passing overhead at 25000 feet and dropped, without authorization, a 250 lbs bomb on the Canadians, killing four. No prison here either. Had the victims been friendly Afghan troops, we would not have even heard of the incident.
These are just a few incidents I heard I can think of but there must be many more. The entire World knows that American troops can do what the very well want and get away with it, or at the very most risk a dishonourable discharge.
A dishonourable discharge for a massacring 400 unarmed old men, women and children. Dont expect any more for these Apache pilots or for the prison guards as a matter of fact.
Just an observer
THAT'S WHY
08.05.2004 22:43
Luiz Cunha
e-mail:
lleitaodacunha@aol.com
Removing clearly identified terrorists is NOT a war crime
10.05.2004 11:37
Clearly visible, checked and confirmed at least three times. I would say they were doing a kindness to that last fella and helping to re-fertilise the soil at the same time.
south@mpton
Apache killing
12.05.2004 23:57
Robert
Silent Apache
13.05.2004 00:43
From the body language of the individuals on the ground, it is clear that they themselves do not feel they are doing anything which should be of concern to a US helicopter hovering nearby."
Apaches have an ability to run in silent mode. It's possible that the apache was running in silent, and these folks weren't aware of its presence. Also the reference to the geneva convention is fine, but the writer of the article, nor any of us, have the knowledge of why these persons were targeted. The military obviously thought it was worth the time and money to eliminate these persons. Maybe they were known to have been involved in anti-coalition activities. Maybe they were setting up an ambush. It's easy to villify and add baseless information to the story when you are already seeking to discredit someone.
David
e-mail:
droyal@mojavetech.com
What to do about it!!!
13.05.2004 03:58
What are we going to do about it? I'll tell ya. America and Australia (where I live) are having elections this year. Instead of voting for the incumbent (don't change your horse mid stream) give them a big surprise and vote for the most peaceful party. That will send a BIG message to all sides everywhere "That we are not going to continue to let this happen, we will not support tyrants from either side, we will not forget".
What has invading Afghanistan and Iraq achieved for the War on Terrorism? What has it done for world peace? Not much. If anything we are all much more at risk. I'm tired of hearing of local bomb threats and incedents from people I know and trust that are not even reported on TV because the media is locked on Bush's boys 'n girls or censored by the execs.
And then there's the bodycount in Iraq alone 10,000+ Iraqi civilians, 1000+ American military, god knows how many insurgents. What a mess. What a cost!!! The coalition has killed more Iraqis than Saddam and their supposed to think the US is an ally.
I dont have the solution for the problem that caused the problem, but I have the solution to the current problem. VOTE THEM OUT!!! We will not tolerate those who use military means to solve problems as the first resort.
One mans tyrant is another mans hero and visa versa. Lead by example, maintain the highest standard of human rights, health services, education and security. Then the people will give you their support. We're in this for the long haul, not the quick buck.
Owen
e-mail:
jonesowen@hotmail.com
Homepage:
http://www.nci.tafensw.edu.au
Another one bites the dust
13.05.2004 04:47
Now, back to the 30mil, you cant say you dont feel somewhat good when you see your enemy get blow away.
Much like those who beheaded an unarmed American citizen, and you know what I say?
Keep the 30mil oiled.
Evil American
RAY CAN GET FUCKED!
13.05.2004 09:29
I still can't understand how you can make a comment on something you obviously have no idea about! The only "warcrime" committed in this video is the shooting of the wounded soldier. AND YES THAT IS AGAINST THE GENEVA CONVENTION! However, we can dispute wether or not the persons on the ground were civilians or soldiers until the cows come home but none of us have any fucking idea anyway!
One last comment for Ray! MATE YOU ARE A SPINELESS COWARD FUCK!! HOW DARE YOU SPEAK TO ANY SOLDIER LIKE THAT! REMEMBER SOLDIERS ARE NOT THE ONES TO START WARS POLITICIANS ARE. BILL, UNLIKE YOURSELF, HAS OPTED TO STAND UP AND FIGHT FOR ONES COUNTRY BUT TO ALSO FIGHT FOR PEOPLE WHO CANNOT DEFEND THEMSELVES! THATS WHY I JOINED THE ARMY! SO BEFORE YOU EVEN TRY TO THINK OF A COMMENT TO WRITE BACK TO ME WHY DON'T YOU TAKE YOUR LITTLE COCK OVER TO IRAQ AND HAVE A LOOK FOR YOURSELF AND GUARANTEED WE WILL SEE YOU ON TV BEING HELD HOSTSAGE BY SOME IRAQ EXTREMISTS!!
HAVE A GLASS OF HARDEN-UP, FOLLOWED BY A GLASS OF SHUT-THE FUCK UP!
BILLY AS IN BILLY RAY! HUH -YUCK
Moral intent
13.05.2004 13:43
Or maybe they understand perfectly, based on the evidence of their own eyes. Looks to them, and to me, like you've invaded illegally to remove the dictator you supported for all those years. They're glad he's gone, but now they want you and you "civilian contractor" torturers out.
"What Im saying is, you never REALLY know whats going on, as much as wed like to think our media isnt filtered, at the same time those who know wel, know that isnt true."
What more do we need to know about the wounded man on the ground? He plainly was not a threat, and shouldn't have been shot. You can make all the excuses you like, but it's not us that needs to be persuaded here, it's the judge at the war crimes tribunal or the court martial.
Ian
US saved UK in WWII ???
15.05.2004 12:52
What a load of crap. What your American history lessons don't tell you is that the Battle of Britain was over before the US decided to join in.
mangoman
ignorance
16.05.2004 01:23
a lot of the comments from both sides of this discussion are pretty sad.
1. americans did not win ww2 by themselves.
2. americans are not all fat...we actually have won more medals at the olymics than anyone else
3. every country does things for it's own interests..not just america...unfortunately everything we (americans)do affects everyone. that is why our self interest seems worse than others.
christ
A better analogy
17.05.2004 13:36
The Chinese send helicopters around, to look for the rapist. They see someone behaving suspiciously. So they ask permission from their supervisor, who gives the crew permission to shoot.
They shoot the rape suspect from a mile away, using 30mm cannons, shred him, shred his car, kill another guy who was with him, and wound one more guy who was with him. Then while the wounded guy is lying helpless on the ground, and not a threat to anyone, they shred him with the 30mm too.
A video camera in the helicopter's cockpit films the whole thing, complete with dialogue between the pilot and his fellow soldiers.
Can we work out what was going on in the film? Yes, maybe. If you heard a Chinese observer dismissing it with the excuse that "you weren't there, so you can't know what was going on", you would ignore him.
Tom
Home of the Brave ?
19.05.2004 11:50
Eoin
e-mail:
eoingarland@hotmail.com
USA HATERS
29.05.2004 00:38
We always let others take the first punch then we kick ass. Nothing wrong with that.
As for the video, You and no one eles has a clue as to what happened other than there is 3 more dead ragheads on this planet.
Piss off Planet and leave us alone.
GI JOE
Another point of view
30.05.2004 02:58
Why don’t we discuss this as if they were Iraqis, had a RPG, formed a plan and downed the Apache. We would see them running up to the crash just as the wounded pilots were crawling out with a weapon to protect themselves with. The Iraqi in a split decision makes a call and fires the RPG into the guts of the pilot. He says Allah. Situation over. I think that it would be unanimous here that according to the rules of engagement the Iraqi made the right call and it was a justified kill. Now that would really be proof of saving lives. Just think of the killing power of the Apache and in multiple missions we’re talking potentially hundreds or even thousands and to those soldiers here who have never fought for your country that means a lot more brothers, sons, sisters, daughters, husbands and wives to send after tanks and helicopters and to send on kamikaze jets like on 911, not that Iraq had anything to do with it though, when America’s symbols of military and economic power were attacked and collateral damage occurred. Oh well. Piss around in someone else’s backyard and you’ll quickly learn
the consequences of your actions.
So many of you right wing drones believe anything your told, regardless of credibility, by your government. We are good they are bad. Some people would say it has to do with your government keeping you ignorant. I come from a country on your northern border (that ought to stump more than a few of them for a while) where we are sometimes shown things on our media that are not shown on yours. It’s little wonder why freedom of the press in the US is ranked 27 while we are ranked 5 th.
“you can’t say you don’t feel somewhat good when you see your enemy get blow away.”
I kind of agree with you here. If it was Bush’s and Rumsfeld’s heads coming off in the video, I would somewhat feel that justice has been done.
You know what I would say after knowing of all the unarmed innocent civilians that have been killed by and because of the US in Iraq and around the world, what is it? Something like 6,000,000, and you invaded my country?
Keep the knife sharp, Al.
Ray
e-mail:
Rdurby@hotmail.com
Bunch of unknowledgeable SOB's
30.05.2004 04:46
Terry Merick
e-mail:
tamsrlis@yahoo.com
Passing this on from Witness to Incident
30.05.2004 21:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I new reader I found the thread on the Apache gun run video interesting. Here is a little background info from someone (me) who was there:
The video was shot on Dec 1st, at the north gate of LSA Anaconda, near Balad, Iraq. We had been getting mortared all day, and snipers had killed a local contractor at the North gate and injured a soldier at the South gate. 107mm Chinese Rockets had also been launched into the camp, which housed the 21st Combat Support Hospital.
The Iraqis had attempted to shoot down medevac helicopters with RPGs. This scene was outside the North gate, directly inline with the air field, which launches numerous heavy lift cargo planes at all hours.
Be sure and watch the FULL video, which shows the Iraqis running into the field to place an object, reported to be a SA-7, surface to air missile. Also note the individual behind the tractor as he removes the cover from the weapon to fire at the helicopter. Firing distance was reported to be 1.75 miles from the targets.
Just one engagement in a very long day of combat. For the Apache pilots, it is business as usual.
__________________
andy gallo
Business as usual
02.06.2004 09:02
You gangsters are going to pay for your crimes.
Rory
Clueless
03.06.2004 23:31
First you were not there, so you really have no idea as to what really happened. Second you are not in any way an expert on interpiting IR imagery but you appear to be an expert at jumping to conclusions and showing your ignorance. Third, if you fell so strongly about what is happening then take your silly ass there and see some reality, or fourth you can sit here and enjoy the freedoms secured by someone elses service that you seem to be judging very harse (since you were not there). Well let me give you one fact, more than that will overload your pea brain, the Apachie can spank your ass from such a range that you would not know it were there until it was to late, (How about them apples) now think about that when you watch the video, oh and also who the hell plows a field at NIGHT!!!!!! and without headlights on, I know there were no headlights because on a FLIR they will show white hot, so they are in the dark doing dangerous farming things NOT even using the headlights on their vehicles, that was because they didn't want anyone to know they were there. Now go play in traffic, this will reduce the burden on those who have some inteligence and are trying to help others.
Clay
It was fair
15.06.2004 08:40
Ken
awful video
19.06.2004 11:56
dick
why europeans suck
19.06.2004 13:44
Nick Danger
Fuck Europeans
19.06.2004 21:02
Gunnar
I'm sorry, but I can't help but have no sympathy what-so-ever.
23.06.2004 09:56
Soldiers should do everything they can to protect themselves, and prevent further harm to themselves. And when they are forced, by a retarded president, to be put in harms way, they should be allowed to do to these people, whatever they please.
Burn in hell.
People tend to forget the terrible things, they have done. And would love to blame the world superpower.
It's amazing that it has come to this.
When something goes wrong, America needs to fix it, because no one else will.
When something goes wrong, it's America that gets the blame.
When will the world start taking some personal responsiblity?
When will America start to be more open to co-operating with the world?
It seems as though it will never happen.
But until then, kill, kill, kill.
Adam
e-mail:
dj_freaq@hotmail.com
Giving the American Left a Bad Name
23.06.2004 14:40
The fact is that most everyone (if not all) people on here do not have the expertise to analyze this video and judge the actions taken as wrong or right. Be honest with yourselves: you already had your mind made up before you watched it. You already decided that you were going to watch three innocent farmers get brutally destroyed by a 30mm cannon, operated by evil, zionist Americans. (Or, on the other hand, you decided you were going to watch a video of brave Marines taking action and doing their honorable duty).
I am proud to say I am on the left. I am proud to say that I don't agree with the current administration. But I am not proud of the way other members of the left adopt a thousand-mile wide viewpoint repeated endlessly (Every action taken by a soldier in Iraq is wrong. America only operates on financial interest. We live in a Big Brother society). This does us no good.
If you are truly someone who believes in change for the better, and if you see fault, get real and true to your cause. Don't just spout hollow catch phrases. You can superimpose the face of Bush over Hitler all you want, but that's not going to convince anyone of anything. Where's the substance? And why aren't you looking into matters that you CAN actually analyze (as opposed to a 2 minute long video clip)?
If you say we're at war with Oceania, and we're living '1984,' what is the use? If all you do is call America an Evil Empire, what are you advocating? Do you know why the right consitently overtakes the left? Because they take action. They don't spout off vague generalities that would be better placed in a teen-angst song by Korn (or some other totally manufactured "modern" rock band).
We criticize Bush for being "stupid," but who are the stupid ones? We are at a critical time. Our iron is hot, but THIS is how we're striking it? This a time when we can change the administration, and correct our mistakes. We should be seeing the abuses at Abu Ghraib, the 9/11 Commission reports, the Iraq situations as the places from where WE take actions. Instead, most of you sleepwalk mumbling about how Bush is both a retard, and a power hungry villain bent on world domination.
Well, if he's so retarded, it should be easy for us to get a better administration in office. And if he's such a powerful villain, we'd better do a lot more than rollover and spout off pullquotes someone read on a Michael Moore fansite.
Go home and do your homework. This nation and our politics are filled with complexities. If you haven't the focus to look deeper than a few video clips, we might as well get comfy with Bush, 'cause he's going to be in office for awhile.
Or, maybe you're all experts on the Geneva Conevtions, and you were all there in that Apache Helicopter. And maybe you all know how to exactly interpret whether or not that tubular object was a weapon. And maybe you all know who those people were and what they were up to.
If you want to be activists, then goddamnit, get active.
David
e-mail:
ghmodcubist@yahoo.com
apache shoots men
23.06.2004 20:10
daryl
e-mail:
ddowdy@elp.rr.com
Another point of view
04.07.2004 05:49
the consequences of your actions.
So many of you right wing drones believe anything your told, regardless of credibility, by your government. We are good they are bad. Some people would say it has to do with your government keeping you ignorant. I come from a country on your northern border (that ought to stump more than a few of them for a while) where we are sometimes shown things on our media that are not shown on yours. It’s little wonder why freedom of the press in the US is ranked 27 while we are ranked 5 th.
“you can’t say you don’t feel somewhat good when you see your enemy get blow away.”
I kind of agree with you here. If it was Bush’s and Rumsfeld’s heads coming off in the video, I would somewhat feel that justice has been done.
You know what I would say after knowing of all the unarmed innocent civilians that have died in Iraq, around 2,000,000, and killed around the world, what is it? something like 6,000,000 all by and because of the US and you invaded my country?
Keep the knife sharp, Al.
Bob
Evidence Related to Chopper Technology ~ They knew what they were doing.
05.07.2004 06:06
Consider those technological facts on the mcdonnel douglas ah64 Apache.
Now consider these Facts about the biological weapons.
For those that are whining and complaing that we shouldn't be there in the first place becuase we never found the "weapons of mass destruction", consider this. Soldiers in central iraq have found Grade B Plutonium. Hey, guess what? Grade B plutonium is used for one thing and one thing only. And its not Plutonium Cupcakes. Plutonium is used for BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS. Its radioactive chemical they use in those sort of weapons.. Guess what else they found? Empty warheads?Hell, they'r
e only using them for coffee mugs, right? If i find a steering wheel, a winsheild, an engine, and some car doors.. this couldnt have ANYTHING to do with a full automobile could it? If thats not enough evidence.. how about the fact that regardless if sadaam hussein had them presently. HE USED MUSTARD GAS AGAINST THE KURDISH PEOPLE AND KILLED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS. Where do all these memories go?
Nyberg
e-mail:
Shutupandplay06@yahoo.com
WMDs
05.07.2004 08:37
Rumsfeld, fighting for FREEDOM
"Empty warheads?Hell, they'r e only using them for coffee mugs, right?"
Those were battlefield warheads. Not long range. Every army's got those. No threat was posed by them to the US. Bush lied. Powell lied. Cheney lied.
"how about the fact that regardless if sadaam hussein had them presently. HE USED MUSTARD GAS AGAINST THE KURDISH PEOPLE AND KILLED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS. Where do all these memories go?"
And how about the fact that Rumsfeld was shaking Saddam's hand right after that was announced, and vetoing condemnation of Saddam in the UN, and trying to pin the blame on Iran, because Saddam was your ally at the time? And how about the fact that the left were protesting against Saddam at the time, and the right-wing press were calling the left "naive", and saying things like "you have to work with unpleasant people some times for the greater good", etc. Where do all these memories go?
John
s
05.07.2004 10:45
s
Over and over again
06.07.2004 13:55
I am opposed to the American invasion of Irak, for multiples reasons which have already been explored in this thread, from corporate greed to lies of WMD's rampant in Irak etc...
What have I seen?
I watched it over and over again, trying to tell myself "these are farmers after a day's work", or "these are terrorists disposing of a hot weapon". i read everyone, even those whose views were completely opposite to mine. I heard some stupid things, I saw people lying though their teeth ( general so and so has ascertained that the truck contained a massive amount of RPG's, etc.... ). I also picked up some military info that I knew nothing about ( long range and stealth of the Apache, usual procedures, etc...)
I watched each of these people over and over again. The way that guy runs in the field and drops what looks like a weapon in the furrow, the "flag waving" that looks very much like someone desperately trying to unsheath said weapon...
I am NO expert and will first of all say this: I am just trying honestly to make out what little I can from the fragmentary evidence before my eyes. Why should I do that? Well, because I have the right to vote, for one thing, and so do not believe I should just "let the people in charge take care of everything" but try to understand things for myself to the limits of my possibilities.
I don't think they were farmers. Not that it matters now...
So some will call them terrorists, and others will call them freedom-fighters.
But what did I see?
Well, I saw that guy on the tractor who may or may NOT have been in on this, get smoked numero uno and blown to kingdom come. And NO, it does not give me a hard-on.
Then I see the second one trying, it seems, to unveil a weapon and get it.
and finally I see a man crawling on the floor, wounded, posing no threat, getting wasted from on high.
I have seen war, I have seen murder, i have seen what General Galt calls a war-crime, and you know what? It looks just like a video-game. To an extent that makes me sick.
I understand the comments of those who find this video exciting. I find it despicable, i don't share their excitement, but I understand. They feel comfortable watching it the way they would feel comfortable in front of a computer screen wasting congs or skinnies without facing real danger.
Someone said here "well, when you are in a million dollar death machine that everybody wants to blow off the skies, you take action". yeah, I bet you do.
But what the f.... are you doing in that million dollar death machine in the first place?
Once you're in there,all the rest follows suit. You get shot at, you go after people under cover of vastly superior firepower and technology and you blow little pixel people to smithereens on your computer screen. And people back at home see this and feel justified, because they have forgotten these are human beings down there.
I shudder at the wrath, the ugliness, the horror that the US have unleashed on themselves by not thinking their actions through and following the lies of Bush, his cronies, and his media.
I will not cheer when the next 9/11 horror happens. I will grieve for those who are caught in it. And I grieve for those three poor bastards in the field, and the manner of their death.
I sure hope the US grunts who are there in this hell at the moment wake up to what has been done to them. They have been placed in "clear and present danger" to ensure that Dick Cheney's Halliburtons Shares skyrocket. I hope they come back, alive. And face their real enemy.
Christian Lehmann
e-mail:
drclehmann@aol.com
Excessive force? No.
08.07.2004 18:02
To quote:
[indisputable evidence of excessive force use by U.S.
23.01.2004 07:51"
"just like the upper discription says, these people on the ground were too nonchalant and unafraid with the sound of helicopter rotors and engines nearby to be doing things that would absolutely be confirmable by distant thermal imaging in the dark as 'hostile' and furthermore, assuming that they were indeed carrying some kind of weapons, the video shows a total lack of understanding of engagement rules that stipulate you do not continue to use deadly force when the unconfirmed 'enemy' in this case, possibly 'non combattants' are not resisting, firing weapons, or otherwise able to resist as they are dead or wounded by the first volley of fire. this video indeed depicts a war crime. it's not likely to be
the only time it's been done, either...judging by the way it was handled by the order to continue to kill by the unit commander. it'd been entirely different if these people on the ground had been firing weapons at helicopters or ground forces, or absolutely beyond all reason, potentially dangerous. continued use of force like this will guarantee that
all available able bodied and recruitable men in that country will be looking at this and thinking that they shouldn't stop till the last soldier is out of their country. vietnam should have taught that lesson....bombing the ho chi minh trail every night with heavy
bombers didn't negate the eventual loss of the war and retreat by 'vastly superior technologically advanced forces' of the occupier. this will be another repeat of that lesson, I'm afraid"
an objector with military background who knows better]
These 3 lives taken on this video won't even start to make up for the thousands of lives taken on 9/11. This is totally different than Vietnam. The Iraqies attacked us first on our home soil. Payback's a bitch. We were totally in the right.
A proud American
Points to Ponder...
09.07.2004 18:23
2. When our medics attempt to help wounded insurgents, their comrades shoot at them. Therefore, we have begun finishing-off their wounded in situations like that. The same things happened during WWII; the Japanese were animals. Why should we needlessly risk the lives of our people?
Don Jordan
It's war, stupid
10.07.2004 17:29
Vladimir pugachev
e-mail:
pugachevV@netscape.net
Amazed by the Iraqi 'farmers'...
12.07.2004 11:10
Maybe such wealth comes from their dilligent farm work. If you look at the time marker on the TADS display, this action occured between 1625 and 1629 Zulu time, that is, Greenwich Standard Time (top left corner: hours, minutes, seconds, followed by a Z for Zulu). Iraq is four hours ahead of Zulu time, making this between 2025 and 2029 Lima, or local time. Those are some awfully dilligent farmers, to be heading out, starting out working, in their fields at about 8:30 pm on a December night and to only have four people out to work.
TommythegunUSMC
911
24.07.2004 01:47
Now put yourself in the position of the crew of the helo...and tell me your gonna take a chance that they just farmers farming with hand tools.....but no it turns out to be a rpg and he got a shot off on you while you were wondering. there goes a what 22 million dollar helo you and your best bud...beacouse it might just be a farmer..I don't think so!
In a war where suvillians and combatants look exactly alike...well your gonna break some eggs.
Kilgque
How naive can someone be?
24.07.2004 02:13
I cant believe it. How naive can people be? While I believe those people werent farmers, and the Apach didnt kill innocent, I certainly do not believe the media and the liar Geroge W. Bush. DONT TRUST THE MEDIA, MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND! MEDIA=PROPAGANDA.
smaug
I can't help but point and laugh!
25.07.2004 15:05
Corporal Zimmerman
Perfectly valid assault
26.07.2004 05:00
Ron Johnson
Got what was coming to them
28.07.2004 15:08
watch the whole video and then you too will agree they got what was comeing
R.Davidson
Southboy
03.08.2004 17:18
Fuck you
Much To Think About
07.08.2004 19:53
First and foremost, I am an American, so please feel free to judge me by what people in my country did 50 yrs. ago. 100 yrs. ago and SURE let's just go back to even when this country was not a set of United States. I know you will, it's ok. You know why?
Well sir, In most cases evident and frequently sited in history, I don't blame you. I myself have never owned a slave or killed an indian.
As far as that goes. You Brits... Yes you. I have seen quite a few posts in this thread from you gentlemen, Now who told you fellows that we make these decisions together?
It seemed like all of your posts took on the same atmosphere of ignorance where my Country is concerned. You make it out as if the country as a whole decided to go to war with Iraq.....Sure. When our government is on the verge of making life and death decisions, the president gets on television and we all take a vote. Doesn't your country work like that? No?? OOhhh your countries government makes their own decision without consulting every citizen. That's right....
Do you see where I'm going with this?? Don't blame the whole for the faults of a few. Our leaders make decisions, Our soldiers follow orders, Our citizens watch as decisions are made. They cry at the cost of following orders. 90% of us are not the ones you seek. We have nothing to do as far as swaying decisive orders from a commander in chief. If you brits have a problem with what our president does, I have a suggestion for you. Blame Him.
Blaming groups as a whole is a very ignorant view to take. I personally liked it when someone made the comment about the Apache being named after a culture we destroyed. That's wonderful. You know we were there.Oh yes Every American alive today(even the man who named the apache) were there killing indians. How long ago was that? How old would we have to be? Are you, Sir, willing to accept the punishment of what your great nation did in the past? Before you were born? You should, as it seems that is what you expect from us Americans.
My personal view is not of This Country and That Country, I believe the only way this PLANET will work is to be just that, One Planet. Why are there starving children with so many millionaires in the world? How many tons of food is thrown out a day world wide? Why is there luxury in one place when there is defile in another? I'm not going so far as to say we should be a "Utopian Society". I believe it is as simple as taking where there is much and giving where there is little. Save your paperwork.
I blame no one. Who am I to say what should happen to this man or that one. Assumptions Guesses cliche's It has become second nature for anybody with the ability to speak to judge with every breath they take. All we know is what we are told. You show me a man who has never commited a wrong doing. You bring him to me. Let this man judge me, for he is the only one appropriate to do so.
R.
e-mail:
Q7suited@yahoo.com
Response to Stupid American
11.08.2004 18:59
Dont forget that you're just a bunch of colonists that've never won a war on your own in your entire history!!
Phil Bart
Blinkered idiots
11.08.2004 19:35
"These 3 lives taken on this video won't even start to make up for the thousands of lives taken on 9/11. This is totally different than Vietnam. The Iraqies attacked us first on our home soil. Payback's a bitch. We were totally in the right."
Are there really still people around who think that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11? Even Bush admits now that the Iraqis had nothing to do with it. You've been lied to. Wake up.
John
of course it was a weapon
14.08.2004 07:15
First, he runs and tosses an object into a field for no apparent reason.
Second, once the first guy is eaten, the second guy (buy the tractor) is crouching down tearing the wrap off the RPG to put it into action immediately.
IT WAS A WEAPON. :)
dan
To Dan...
27.08.2004 09:55
As for the guy next to the tractor unwrapping something, he was taking it from the tractor already before the shots were fired (you can see it just before the walking guy is being targeted). So unless he is psychic, that couldn't have been in response to the shooting. In fact, it is unlikely that he would know that a helicopter fired at his buddy. It was night, the helicopter was far away and his tractor engine was running (that is pretty noisy). So how would he know, especially in the second before he frantically starts to unwrap. Even if it was an RPG, how would he aim it?
But of course the worst thing was just killing that injured person who even stopped crawling. There is zero justification for that. There is no reasonable explanation that you can come up with to excuse it.
Wouter
Kill them all
31.08.2004 18:29
soldier
u.s coalition = DUMB BLOODTHIRSTY BASTARDS ( fuck them all)
01.09.2004 20:36
is not right ,,i know that inside
but the FUCKING U.S, these fucking stupid motherfucker´s
i guess they are so brainwashed they just don´t understand what they´re doing
a lot´s of stupid fat people in the us
but let us never forget ; all the most hardcore stoners probably come from the us
the facist state
the land of the lost
I hope the U.S. will roast slowly in a nuclear fire
Totally lame excuse for a "conspiracy theory"
02.09.2004 04:41
Secondly, as for this being mid-morning. Display seems to read 16:00:00, which is 4pm in the afternoon. I don't think so. I see the clock in the upper right-hand corner of the display, but thermal imaging weaponsites are utterly useless during the day and are simply not used. I can only assume the fire contro computer is set to a different time zone. That image could not have come from a mid-day encounter in the hot Iraqi desert. Get real, learn that which you speak about before you speak it...
Thirdly, these guys would notice an Apache helicopter hoving in the distance if it were daylight. They're clearlly spooked by something, but it isn't what they see. It's what they hear, the rotors and engine noises. That gun camera doesn't have the range to keep the Apache far enough away that they wouldn't see it in daylight. Simply a silly assertion to say otherwise.
Ted
e-mail:
homeinvader@earthlink.net
can SOMEONE please answer MY QUESTION ?
25.09.2004 11:29
okay let see... second and last reason...AN EVIL DICTATOR WHO KILLED HIS OWN MEN (kurds-and not to mension when he was doing that we were providing him more gas to complete what he wants) ..okay.. if we are so worried about kurds, why don't we buy them a whole country of their own..(remember -kurds are an ethenic group living in more than 4 countries for centries and fighting for their own homeland from each one of 'em-too bad they dont have oil-and price of two lives are not the same (american national standards of equality of first second and third world country residents)...
SO... WHAT are we doing there ?.. how about supressed people in tibet, kashmir, south india (tamils), south america, china, russia, chechnya, saudi arabia, egypt and list goes on ...
you chicken hawks... tell me somethin... can you trade one single day from the life of a brave soldier who is fighting in the name of his country.. a country who is run by them chicken hawk parasites sending these brave american kids to their slaughter houses ... and comitting murders on both sides... iraqis are killing us because they love what we come to occupy..and we are killing them because we love what we are defending...
this all is gonna come back to us.. GOD HELP USA..GOD HELP INNOCENT PEOPLE IN IRAQ
GOD CREATED ALL MEN EQUAL-
9/11 who is behind it?
27.09.2004 02:11
think about it and investigate honestly, you will come to the conclusion that no one except the american government itself is behind the attacks of 9/11 .
Just take a deep breathe and investigate the subject accurately and honestly, and prevent such crimes who can happen to us again, by identifying the real murderers. Don't wait 50 or 100 years until your children or grandchildren read the secret governmental documents released and then curse us and say our parents were damn fools.
WAKE UP
sabonzo
To Kill an American
04.10.2004 00:26
You probably missed it in the rush of news last week, but there was actually
a report that someone in Pakistan had published in a newspaper an offer of a
reward to anyone who killed an American, any American.
So an Australian dentist wrote the following to let everyone know what an
American is, so they would know when they found one.
(Good on ya, mate!!!!)
An American is English, or French, or Italian, Irish, German, Spanish,
Polish, Russian or Greek. An American may also be Canadian, Mexican,
African, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Australian, Iranian, Asian, or
Arab, or Pakistani, or Afghan. An American may also be a Cherokee, Osage,
Blackfoot, Navaho, Apache, Seminole or one of the many other tribes known as
native Americans.
An American is Christian, or he could be Jewish, or Buddhist, or Muslim. In
fact, there are more Muslims in America than in Afghanistan. The only
difference is that in America they are free to worship as each of them
chooses. An American is also free to believe in no religion. For that he
will answer only to God, not to the government, or to armed thugs claiming
to speak for the government and for God.
An American is from the most prosperous land in the history of the world.
The root of that prosperity can be found in the Declaration of
Independence, which recognizes the God given right of each person the
pursuit of happiness.
An American is generous. Americans have helped out just about every other
nation in the world in their time of need. When Afghanistan was overrun by
the Soviet army 20 years ago, Americans came with arms and supplies to
enable the people to win back their country.!
As of the morning of September 11, Americans had given more than any other
nation to the poor in Afghanistan.
Americans welcome the best, the best products, the best books, the best
music, the best food, the best athletes. But they also welcome the least.
The national symbol of America, The Statue of Liberty, welcomes your tired
and your poor, the wretched refuse of your teeming shores, the homeless,
tempest tossed. These in fact are the people who built America. Some of them
were working in the Twin Towers the morning of September 11, 2001
earning a better life for their families. I've been told that the World
Trade Center victims were from at least 30 other countries, cultures, and
first languages, including those that aided and abetted the terrorists.
So you can try to kill an American if you must. Hitler did. So did
General Tojo, and Stalin, and Mao Tse-Tung, and every bloodthirsty tyrant in
the history of the world. But, in doing so you would just be killing
yourself. Because Americans are not a particular people from a particular
place. They are the embodiment of the human spirit of freedom. Everyone who
holds to that spirit, everywhere, is an American.
Author unknown
Pass this around the World.
Left out
realities of war
04.10.2004 03:06
what is clear, however, is that iraq, including hussein and the iraqi intelligence service had deep, far reaching ties to al queda for most of the last 12 years. they sponsored them in the sudan, sent delegations to lybia in march of 2003 to discuss attacks against US domestic and world interests, provided diplomatic pouches and immunity and clean passports to terrorists. Zarcowardy was treated by iraq's most elite inner circle (as in Saddam) doctors and in his facilities. the iraqi intelligence service had numerous meetings with the devil worshiper Atta, afterwhich mysterious large deposits of money appeared in Atta's bank account(s).
All this is okay, as is the fact that they slaughtered thousands in abu graib and all around the city, crucifying many at eye level in the streets. The world hardly batted an eye, yet wails of almighty injustice because America didn't stop them then. Now that WE stopped them finally (against the wishes of the eurotrash union who, by the way, has a pretty lousy track record of not acting until its too late with regards to world politics and wars) its supposedly a world outrage that we made some iraqi prisoners get naked and do what basicaly ammounts to (in the VAST majority of cases) entry level college fraternity pranks.
our teenagers are dying every day, but most of the casualties are from cowards hiding behind children and churches. if we were so bloodthirsty, we could kill every single iraqi instead of spending trillions (yes it will be that much) of our own money on that country while not taking a single drop of iraqi oil (except for the billions france and friends raped from the oil for food scam, but that was okay i guess) and sacrificing 1000 brave young men and women forever so we can protect mosques which can be rebuilt, because we won't fire until fired upon, and in many cases not even then.
so regarding those facts, although i admit i can not tell for certain, either way, based on the extremely limited information that grainy, fuzzy, black and white video provides, I will give our brave and righteous warriors the benefit of the doubt on this one and every other one until it is PROOVEN otherwise.
oh and by the way france, we noticed you just restored diplomatic relations with iraq for the first time in 13 years, because of the regime change that happened there, because of the war WE fought that YOU objected to, based on the intelligence YOU provided us.
you're welcome.
open minded
My Interpretation
26.10.2004 07:23
T. Brooks
Homepage:
http://www.supportourtroops.homestead.com
Tank Crew in the Open
30.10.2004 23:07
Hannibal
death is just a game
31.10.2004 15:12
The answer.........they enjoy killing people. Look at atrocities in Vietnam and Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I don't care about any US soldiers that become casualties over in Iraq........fuck 'em.
Andy S
legal engagement
05.11.2004 05:13
mike
Gucci Wraparounds?
05.11.2004 06:09
Limey Bastard
It's confirmed
09.11.2004 00:11
Canada is better than the USA
Lot of theories, all worthless
10.11.2004 15:36
They werent farmers, if you think they were then you need to watch the full video. I for one am completely sick of all this anti-american crap some of you dumbass europeans spit out any chance you get to have an opinion. Why dont you support your own damn troops, how do you think it makes them feel to be over there knowing their entire country thinks their risking their lives for a useless cause.
Defcon6
Murderers, and their flag waving fans
10.11.2004 16:24
People you disagree with are responsible for dead Iraqis?
It's "anti-american" to point out war crimes? Was it "anti-american" to report on the My Lai massacre too?
"...but of course all the 3rd world countries who believe this have no freedom of speech..."
Which 3rd world countries have less freedom of speech than the USA, you pig-ignorant knuckledragger? Anywhere in South America and Africa, apart from the US client states?
"how do you think it makes them feel to be over there knowing their entire country thinks their risking their lives for a useless cause."
They agree. It makes them feel sickened and angry. They write home a lot talking about it. They think that they joined the British army to serve their country, and instead their lives are being pissed away on some other country's oil war so you fat wankers can drive everywhere in your Hummers.
Fucking morons. The pro-war comments from americans on here are as bad as the killing itself.
Dave
EXCELLENT SHOOTING!
12.11.2004 06:08
There are two main, functional parts to an RPG. The launcher and the grenade/war head. The launcher, the "tube", is a reusable weapon that needs only to be reloaded with another rocket propelled grenade before it is ready to fire again. RPG launchers are not discarded, they are reused over and over, just like a firearm. The fact that the man put the RPG launcher in his car indicates that he meant to keep the RPG for future use. He probably did hear the helicopter coming that is why he ran and dumped the RPG into an adjacent field. The man was probably hoping that whoever was in the helicopter was not paying attention or did not see him dump the RPG. The imaging systems in modern US military helicopters are very advanced and can "see" a long way. People who carry weapons around a war zone are combatants. These combatants died in a manner consistant with fighting in a war.
Dave
EXCELLENT EXCUSE!
12.11.2004 10:13
Fucking murderers. You should all rot in jail.
Marc
Whisper mode
13.11.2004 07:25
Jon
e-mail:
philam5252@yahoo.com
Terrorists get what they deserve
15.11.2004 17:53
Jihad hater
NICE F...ING SHOT DUDES
16.11.2004 00:41
NEVER FORGET FARENHEIGHT 911...AL FRANKEN........BILL MAHER.....MOVEON.ORG
AIR AMERICA..........AMERICA COMING TOGETHER..........GEORGE SOROS.........
FRANCE....OIL FOR FOOD...........ARAFAT..........dHIMMITUDE................
KARL POPPER......BIN LADEN..........ON AND ON AND ON.........
michael moore
e-mail:
mike@michaelmoore.com
To Jihad Hater
16.11.2004 21:49
I don't really want to get into this discussion about wether this brave helicopter crew should or should not have killed them Iraqis. But on the othrer hand, I would say: The only good Iraqi is a dead Iraqi!
I just had to react however, because I think you mix up some facts. Nothing to be ashamed of, many of your fellow countrymen do.
But, just to inform you: The guy responsible fot killing 3000 innocent people in New York is called Bin Ladin and was hiding in Afghanistan. To get him, the americans bombed the shit out of that country but unfortunately, he is supposedly still around somewhere.
To bad so many innocent men, women and children got killed in the process. But they were Afghan, and more importantly: No american voters.
I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Osama would have chosen San Francisco as his hide out. Would have been a good thing to bomb those goddamm lefties to kingdom come. And the rest of that state with it. Collateral damage.
Anyway, there IS NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER between 9/11 en Iraq. Only in Iraq the terrorist attacks go on. The past year 100000 innocent Iraqis lost their lives (mostly women and children)by the hands of AMERICAN terrorists.This figure comes from a SCIENTIFIC publication in the Lancet, one of the most respected medical publications. Mind you: 100000 more people killed as would have happened under Saddam.
By the way: I consider myself a right wing republican. Hence I hate the system we had in the former Sovjet Union. It hurts to see though that this same sovjet-system has been implemented long time ago in the US. Way more sophisticated than in the SU however. Okay, it's not communism, but there is absolutely no freedom in the US anymore. The whole world knows it, exept the americans. We still shout 'freedom' at everybody we murder, but sadly we have become the worlds worst tyrant.
You probably don't even know what I am talking about. To understand, it might be a good start to get to know the viewpoint of 'the other side'.
What would you do if some gang of terrorist would invade your hometown? Wouldn't you try to defend what's precious te you?
That's what those people in Fallujah are doing. Just trying to get those goddam American terrorists out.And just because some dangerous idiot in the white house tells you those Iraqi freedom fighters are 'terrorists' doesn't mean they are. They are just defending what's theirs'.
Kind regards,
Bud
Bud
e-mail:
bwah@beer.com
40 million babies a year dont count eh' but a few armed farmers do?
17.11.2004 04:39
mo
Wow, are Americans pussies or what?
17.11.2004 07:48
We went to war in Iraq because 3 dudes were acting suspicious in a field in the middle of bumble-fuck-Egypt?
Fred
Judge Dred Instant Justice
17.11.2004 13:31
Read www.serbu.com
If same rule is used in a US riot ... how many home brewn Terrorist
will be born as their wifes kids and family are shot on sight ?
just because a revel used your rooftop to fire a few shots at police your
house is blown up with you and your family unaware what the heck is happening outside .
Welcome to another Viet-Nam Were America is creating 600 million enemys .
Reading at reactions here ? was it just for petrol ? as IRAK had to do NOTHING with 911
Us gave the go to invade and later cry wolf (Read about Slant drilling case ) in Irak border ..
Read www.serbu.com again ..
Buy one and burry it well for the bad times ......
Hector
e-mail:
Noway @noemail.com
Listen to this
18.11.2004 01:30
Alright, you people can sit and rant about how they're helpess farmers and they're merely putting tools away. Or that they don't even act scared while this AH-64 Apache is hovering by them. Well these are some facts...I served a year in Iraq, over the course of that year the number of rockets, weapons, and IED's we uncovered in farmers field is immense, The rockets alone number in the hundreds. Who do you think these insurgents are? Doctors? Lawyers? No they're common farmers who bury these weapons in their damn fields.
Now as far as the tactics are concerned...that apache was nowhere near those people. The cannon on a apache can travel nearly two miles, now gives the fact that at any given time in the heavily patrolled sections of Iraq...a helicopter miles away possibly not even facing them (the cannon on a apache can rotate) would not be cause for too much alarm.
Also, if you wish to get into the rules of land warfare a helicopter pilot is not regulated to take prisoners, as they can't being airborne. And any Iraqi with a RPG-7, 107mm rockets, or any sort of explosives inside of Iraq is hostile.
Now stop your pathetic mewlings, the brave men and women from the U.S. and U.K. who are over there didn't volunteer to go to Iraq. They are simply serving their countries who sent them there. Everyday Iraqi's covertly and cowardly place bombs and conduct clandestine attacks killing soldiers daily. These men and women over there are faced against an enemy they rarely see and who they speak to daily unknowingly.
Apache pilots don't shoot hapless farms for sport. Else their would be thousands of dead Iraqi's a day. Those men saw something suspicious, observed the individuals then saw them moving weapons. They called to higher, got the okay, and killed three ruthless terrorists...the same type of people who behead U.K. and U.S. citizens for no reason. And here's another nice fact for you, the one that sums it all up, the U.S. Army actually did go to that site and believe it or not...found weapons there.
So if you want to cry more, go ahead...but the only people who care are the people crying along with you.
U.S. Army
educate yourself
18.11.2004 05:19
Our helicopter pilots were not allowed to use 30mm cannons on just insurgents themselves. Well, needless to say you can only take so much before you have to take a stand. The video you see shows an apache watching from a very far distance, far enough so the insurgents do not even know it is watching them (U.S. technology is neat huh!). After obvious suspicious behavior is made, behavior which has no explanation but some kind of weapons deal/ activity,many of you may not know what missile launchers, rpg's, mortar tubes look like, you just know what this web site tells you. Also many of the systems the insurgents used were unconventional, very odd looking, yet somewhat effective weapons.
steven
Illegal killing
18.11.2004 16:49
Iraq wasn't behind 9/11 you ignorant f**k, and people involved in the Iraqi insurgency sure as hell had absolutely nothing to do with it. You are excusing the hypocritical murder of human beings when you don't even know who was behind 9/11, that is shocking to be honest. And no matter what these men where doing they were:
- no threat to US forces
- the tractor driver wasn't involved and got killed first
- the nature of those killings is illegal under US and international law
- the use of force was totally excessive
- even when one man was left injured and was no threat at all (if he ever had been), he was executed by pilots in the safety of a helicopter
- the pilot cannot have been 100% positive that the object was a weapon (and no, not only hot weapons show up on a modern IR camera), yet he said it was and the radio advice was to "smoke them" for an activity that does not prove you are a terrorist, or insurgent.
Nick
Double Standards
18.11.2004 16:52
Jack
One Language....VIOLENCE.
18.11.2004 17:07
All fanatic muslims should be hunted down and slaughtered. Period. They understand one language, and that's violence, and that is the language they should be spoken to in. Whether it's HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of mass graves litering the Iraqi desert, fanatics strapping bombs to themselves, fanatics flying airplanes in to buildings, the murder of those who write critically of islam, the brutalization of women across the muslim world....how you bleeding heart losers can take the side of those pigs is disgusting.
You people can't even resolve a genocidal situation in the Balkins by yourselves. For the same continent that hosted the concentration camps in WWII, one would think you could pull your heads out of your asses to deal with genocide in the event it was to occure again. Well guess what, it DID occure again, while you cowards sat back and did NOTHING....until the U.S. showed up. Your moral compass is one America should look to? When hell freezes over.
5POINT56
Has it occured to anyone...
19.11.2004 16:31
Has it occured to anyone that the "targets" in this video that were eviscerated by the Apache gun fire were simply petty criminals? The object carried to and dropped in the field could easily have been a stolen tool or spare part they wanted to use for the tractor to fix it or improve it. They acted suspicious in the video because they were doing something wrong and they knew it, but they obviously weren't concerned about the Apache helicopter hovering 1km away pointed in their direction. What does that tell you? It tells you that the people they were watching out for - the people they stole from - were not the US Military. More than likely they were watching out for rival Arabs - not US helicopters.
The Apache helicopter guys saw what they wanted to see because they were scared - listen to their voices - they are on edge and nervous. The simply misinterpreted the "guilty" behavior of the farmers as evidence they were plotting to kill US soldiers.
It's called the Fog of War.
Fred
What?
19.11.2004 18:27
Steve
You People Just Don't get it!
22.11.2004 04:37
Eric Garrett, West Valley City UT
Just a few glaring misrepresentations stand out.
27.11.2004 00:17
Quote: This is what is known about the tape. It is from the thermographic camera system of an Apache attack helicopter. The image is of heat, not of light. The time of day appears to be midmorning, based on the time display seen on the heads-up display. Military time uses a 24 hour system, there is no "PM" in military clocks.
1: The readout shows that it was taped from16:25Z-16:29Z (Zulu time),(4:25-4:29pm) that is NOT local time. The offset from Zulu time to Baghdad time is +3 hours, so the Video was shot from 19:25-19:29L (7:25-7:29pm) local time, I.E. after dark.
Quote: There is a longer version of the tape (which may not play on everyone's computers) that does show one individual taking a long object or objects from his car and taking it over to the vehicle at the far right. (a) It is assumed by those who want to justify the shooting that this object is a missile launcher assembly being discarded. However, one cannot explain why someone who had just fired off an RPG at US troops would bother to put the used launcher (b) into his car, only to them drive someplace else and then discard it. Nor does it make sense that the man would place a weapon over there it is likely to be run over by the tractor and plough, damaging both the weapon and the plough assembly as well. And, given that the man does not in any way point the object at the approaching helicopter, it is clear that at least he does not think it is a working weapon. (c) Given that the object is actually longer than an RPG launcher assembly, three alternative explanations suggest themselves.
1. That the object is a bundle of long handled farm tools being taken over to where the farmers are working with the tractor. (d)
2. That the object is a bundle of thin poles to be driven into the ground ahead of the tractor to give the tractor driver a visible guide to keep the furrows straight. (e)
3. As suggested by a reader, that the object may be part of the plastic pipe irrigation system used in dry climate agriculture. (f)
2: A: He is not taking it over to any vehicle; he is running it out into the middle of a field in the dark.
B: An RPG launcher is not disposable; you can reload them in a matter of seconds. You don’t discard them after use, unless you are trying to get rid of incriminating evidence
C: The range of the M230 30mm Chain Gun on the Apache is 6,005m (4.7 miles) The persons on the ground were clearly unaware of the Apache, Which is evident by how they do not flinch, or turn to look when the Apache fires the first burst, which is out of range (I.E 6,005m/4.7miles+)
D: In the dark?
E: In the dark?
F: The pipes, or siphons, as they are called, are shaped in a U, so they can carry water up, and over the burm that makes up one side of an irrigation ditch, to the field.
Quote: From the body language of the individuals on the ground, it is clear that they themselves do not feel they are doing anything which should be of concern to a US helicopter hovering nearby. (a) In other words, they do not act like the object thrown into the field near the tractor is anything the US helicopter would object to. No sooner has the man delivered the object to the tractor (b) than he turns and walks back to the car. At no time does he (or anyone else) act like they are trying to escape the area until the Apache opens fire. (c)
3: A: Remember, he’s out of range for the M320 (I.E. 6,005m/4.7miles+) they are unaware of the Apache.
B: I didn’t see him “deliver” anything to the tractor, I watched as he ran something out into the middle of a field at night, and dropped it.
C: A second time.
ATF
Know The Facts
01.12.2004 21:42
Dave
The facts of war
07.12.2004 06:21
The insurgents are as normal as any iraqi it is almost impossible to say when they are working on farm or on the road and when they are planting their bombs or weapons for other suicide insurgent to pick up when engaging.
If the situation was reversed, the insurgent was in uniform(noticeable) and the american was in civilian clothes, the insurgent would have killed millions of people by now because it is so difficult to single out an armed civilian among thousands of civilians specially in my country where having a weapon is not even illegal.
Al'mah
A little messed up
09.12.2004 23:13
Jason Kendel
Better safe then sorry
10.12.2004 23:59
G. Holland
Justified shooting,
11.12.2004 00:30
My question to you is 3 fold:
What did you expect the helicopter crew to do? Just fly away? They would have just picked up the weapons and gone back to planning where to use them next.
You said that it was farm equipment they were putting in the field. Growing up on a farm I can tell you that any equipment is "NEVER" left in a field, and never so deep in the field that has not been cut yet. As you infered that is a quick way to damage farm tractors, plows etc... Reinspect the 1st man and see how far into the field he runs.
So if it was not farm equipment what was it? Also what was the small 'gun' shaped object that the second man dropped at the edge of the field. This is also clearly seen.
The 3rd question is very simple...Were you there? Have you seen the after action reports? Photos? Are you privy to the documents of the engagement in question? I did not think so! To answer your next qustion spilling out of you mouth the answer is no, neither am I. Yet, I have learned that in a place as screwed up as Iraqi is, and currently being in job where I need to make fast decisions, I found that my first reaction is almost always the right one. Yes, I have made mistakes; but the very few I made were done in the heat of the moment and yes no one died. But, I can also take solice in the fact that no one died from my inaction as well. Clearly if them people in the video were let go, maybe not that day or the next day; but sometime someone would have died from those guns. Remember the purpose of guns is to "KILL"! You, me, the child in the street, the mother getting her food or an American military personal. The USA is not over there to 'expand' America, it is not run by a Osama bin ladin or Sadamm. Instead the USA is run by the people for the people, and we are there only to help those who can not help themselves.
So my suggestion to those who stand on the sidelines making judgments about something they can only guess at and cry "Wolf" is to get into the action to judge for yourself and make it better or move to another country Iraqi where you opinions are answered by getting your ears cut off or just shot. Either way it is a win-win for the rest of the USA.
Michael Wayne
not wrong
13.12.2004 06:45
Justin
PLEASE SEND ME TO IRAQ SO SEE FOR MYSELF ANYTIME, I'M SERIOUS
14.12.2004 09:34
Frank O
e-mail:
hollowpoint762@hotmail.com
USA - War and Oil Junkies
14.12.2004 16:12
Read my lips... killing others is always murder. There is no degree to it... not even death penalty is less murder. there is no scale, its murder, it doesnt matter how why or when, its always murder... That crew in the helicopter murdered those people... no one knows why, not even them...
beentheredonethat
Overlooking
15.12.2004 02:00
1. Your assumption is that the Iraqi's knew the Apache was there. The very nature of the Apache is to observe afar off, out of normal visual range and then attack if necessary. Even after the Apache fired one "farmer" that hid by the truck in the wrong area because he was unsure of the direction of the attack as well as the "farmer" by the tractor in open view of the Apache.
2. "Just farmers" BULL! Tossing things in the field the way they were, was not normal activities. The first drop was probably a launcher and the second was the ordinance. Do you not think that if they were "just farmers" that after the first person was struck that the second "farmer" would have hidden instead of aggressivly attempt to unpackage the "farm equipment" to do "normal farming duties"? NO! He was attempting to use the launcher against whoever was attacking. Take a close look at his actions right after the first attack.
They started this, so quit with the liberal bleeding heart bull that one sighted people like you dish out for other people to have to vomit from!
Don
SOMEONE WHO ACTUALLY HAS BEEN TO IRAQ!
18.12.2004 03:05
A Real Soldier
Matt
e-mail:
ArmyRangerAirbrn@hotmail.com
september 11 my happy day!
18.12.2004 14:12
scared to death. at least someone shows u that u are weak
and not immortal.
at least u could feel how it is when someone harm u
in yours own country!
WTC
Not just farmers
20.12.2004 20:17
you guys are pretty funny, or maybe just blind. that was an rpg in a cloth bag!
waving some cloth as a sign of surrender??
he was just getting the rpg out of the bag in a hurry!
the only thing unclear to me is why would they stash the rpg in the field and path of the oncoming tractor... maybe they where just stupid?
and yes the chopper was in no immediate danger of those men, but you got to think ahead. the next chopper might not have been unaware of their intentions...
peter smith
what do you know
30.12.2004 03:36
troop
e-mail:
trigger39@hotmail.com
why
30.12.2004 03:54
jim
Justifying Support: Manly vs. Unmanly Ways.
01.01.2005 06:37
There are manly ways to justify your support for US troops. Anyone who supports US troops can come out and say it _in a manly way_
However, "lying" on their behalf in public is very unmanly.
This_message_is_for_lying_cowards i.e._peter_smith
Justified....
02.01.2005 19:27
We are all talking about the fact that the tube is not an RPG (because it's too long). I hate to tell you people, even though I am no expert of war, there are a hell of a lot more anti-armour/vehicle/air weapons out there.
If it was 'farming tools' then why would the man in question be in such a panic to hide them (evident by the dulling of the tube itself - concealed behind something, eg long grass)
As another comment states, the time shown is set to zulu and so it is pretty dark out there. Again, FLIR is active (see top left of the HUD) and is used by aircrew, mainly, as a way of seeing in the dark - the modern night vision (you can even see through fog and clouds - it's advantage over LA night vision)
The fact the Apache is present and tracking these targets can't be coincidence and is unlikely to be a TOE, so the mission has been set for the aircrew to do this. There must be some reason that these people were taken out!
Finally, a lot of people complaining about the fact they 'hit' the wounded man. Put it this way - if you had been hit by a 30mm chaingun at least once, wouldnt you prefer to be taken out rather than lying in the field in intense pain?
I rest my case
Andrew
Justified?
03.01.2005 00:55
Alex
e-mail:
alexd21089@hotmail.com
War is Ugly
04.01.2005 22:41
Kevin
ONLY 4 TERRORISTS FRAGGED?
10.01.2005 06:28
WTF?, I SAY.
It's to get Roman on their asses, burn their hooches and salt the Earth they die on. The more Syrians,Iranians,Eurabians we pop, the sooner we can get home.
NEXT STOP---TEHRA, baby. Our B-2's can set our new Mid-East policy.
Go George!...another 4 years to smoke'em.
your fucking nightmare
e-mail:
indefiance@copper.net
Not so wierd !!
21.01.2005 19:57
PS: sorry for my misstakes ( I'm 17 arab) & may I say represinting most if not all Palestinian ( Muslims , Chirstians & jews) VIVA IRAQ VIVA RESISTANCE BLOW THESE terrorists off our lands but try not to kill our felows & brothers
Zaid
e-mail:
ajk_x@hotmail.com
Homepage:
http://www.angelfire.com/ultra/ajk
Clueless
21.01.2005 21:53
9-11 has nothing to do with the war in Iraq. Only the most ignorant, ill-informed commentators believe that it does. Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction, and it had not chemical/biological weapons programme. They had no defences to speak of. Iraq and Saddam were no threat to either the UK or the US. Our leaders have willingly misrepresented the intelligence they used to justify the war, yet the majority continue to support them. Many Americans are blindly supporting their President because he claims to be a Christian. It seems the land of the free and home of the brave has forgotten what democracy really is. In addition, we have seen that the US military are incompetent in the extreme and need to consider training their brave volunteers and troops to the standard they deserve.
Being British (but living in the US) and a former soldier with extensive experience, I believe it is high time the Brits withdrew their support for Bush and his regime. What we have inflicted on innocent Iraqis in the name of freedom is inexcusable. No one condones terrorism and everyone wants justice for the horrendous attacks in New York and DC, but in Iraq we have proven that we are certainly no better than those we seek to hunt down and bring to justice.
David
Insane
25.01.2005 10:46
Becka
e-mail:
becka1266@yahoo.com
A Heart Felt Comment From An American In The Heartland
29.01.2005 16:06
Mike Boyer
What Really Happened in This Video
31.01.2005 19:55
Here is the story of the video:
Late at night(I don't know how many farmers are reading this, but how many of you till your fields late at night? Not many, I suspect), this Apache Gunship was surveilling the area around this part of Baghdad in particular because of a rash of ambushes. Keep in mind that at this time, there is a curfew from dusk till dawn, and anyone caught outside is subject to being shot on site. This way we know that nobody is out at night for legal reasons. They hovered at a fairly high altitude at some distance (Don't know exactly, due to the fact that the military doesn't want everyone to know the capabilities and limitations of our night vision equipment, but suffice it to say that they were far enough away not to be seen or heard) and watched the original two men who just seemed to be standing in this field, late at night, for no reason. Needless to say, it looked suspicious. The entire video has never been shown because they watched these guys for so long, it would be an agonizingly long and boring film. After watching the first two guys for awhile, here comes number three, "TILLING THE FIELDS LATE AT NIGHT". Now, since this is a thermal camera, any lights would show very brightly. There are NO LIGHTS on the tractor or either of the trucks. He looks as if he's stopping to say "HI" in total darkness, when one of the original two ambles over from the back of his truck, drops a long cylindrical object onto the ground (A hoe, no doubt, for some tough roots the tractor couldn't handle). He then RUNS toward his first buddy, away from whatever he just dropped. Then "Tractor Man" jumps down, picks up the "HOE" and stashes it behind the tread area of the tractor.
This whole time, the crew has been relaying the information to control. What is determined, is that these three are setting up an RPG Rocket Attack. A decision is made by control at this time to take out the three. The first burst of fire misses completely as the targeting computer was not properly in sync with the gun (Another bit of evidence as to how far away they were, none of them heard the M230 30mm cannon rip off the first burst of fire, and trust me, this is NOT a quiet weapon). After resetting the targeting computer, they drop #1. The gunner spots "Tractor Man" pulling out the "HOE". You can see him pulling off the cover (NO, HE'S NOT WAIVING A FLAG) to fire it. He is now at the right hand of Allah (If you believe that). They knew there was a third man, and start looking for him. They were concerned he may be getting a weapon ready to fire. They spot him hiding under the truck and take out the truck he's under. He's spotted again rolling away from the truck. They make the decision to take him and the second truck out. Now, I think many of you may wonder why. The reasoning is simple; it's an old axiom about fighting. Would be so stupid as to punch someone then turn around and walk away? I think not! Fighting Rule #1= If you make the decision to commit yourself to a fight by hitting someone, you definately do not stop hitting until you can comfortably turn around and walk away with your back to whoever it was you hit, and not worry about being attacked from behind. Same thing with guns. If you pull a gun on someone, you had better be prepared to use it, and if you use it, shot to kill. Anyone who says you should shoot to wound has never been in combat and their advice is worthless!
Now, with all this in mind, watch the video again, and you should see things you haven't seen before.
I am not a heartless warmongerer, but an ex-US Army Ranger who knows a thing or two about REAL COMBAT.
Sympathetic Ranger
ONE MORE THING!!
31.01.2005 20:33
THESE WERE MURDEROUS TERRORISTS WHO GIVE AS MUCH OF A SHIT ABOUT THE POOR IRAQIS WELLBEING AS MANY OF YOU DO ABOUT KNOWING THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT'S ACTUALLY GOING ON OVER THERE!
Many of you say we're there for the oil. Idiots! If that were true, we would have taken it already, and not have to have gone back to our congress to ask for TENS OF BILLIONS of dollars for continued operations.
I read many postings from ignorant right-wing jerks who don't care about civilian casualties and who belittle the Muslim Religion. They do not speak for the majority of Americans.
When you call us fartarsed and stupid warmongerers, remember this: if there ever comes a time when British Freedom is in jeopardy, President Bush, myself, and the great majority of these fartarsed, stupid warmongerers will be on the first plane to stand and fight by your side, as we have done since the turn of the last century. Do you people really think those cheese-eating surrender monkeys, or the country that's been the cause of every major war in Europe for the last 150 years, will jump in and help? Not likely!
My greatest wish is that you people who get to sit in your warm chairs by the cozy fireside and talk about how bad the "Yanks" are, will NEVER, EVER have to see or do the things I've seen and done in my lifetime to give you that freedom.
REMEMBER
Symapathetic Ranger
U.S Marines
02.02.2005 06:46
Perry
Rules of Engagement
04.02.2005 00:19
Your arguments collapse when you talk about a helicopter, may i point out that the great tactical reasoning about them is that if you are less than a km away you can't hear them. they hover just off the ground and have a cannon that can fire on targets accurately up to 3km away. hence why the pilot tells the gunner to adjust and use his laser range finder after their first burst which the iraqis don't even notice. secondly you try and sit there in a combat environment acting with ROE and decide what is and isn't a threat. the USA have a very liberal interpretation in their country with the police force of what is self defence and what is criminal law which is why their soldiers act in what may be conceived as an overly aggresive manner, compare US police to european police trust me its different.
I have no doubt that the pilots are guilty but not of the preposterous things you armchair warriors mention.
Tony
Not sure what to think
04.02.2005 02:31
Doug
Roger... Hit em'
07.02.2005 09:37
Second. What the fuck is the purpose of taking a "pipe" with you out in the field... you can use it for anything. That IS a weapon.
The weapon is thrown right beside the last "plow"-strip (don't know what is called) and the tractor, witch is not present at the start of the "movie", stop over it!... and I believe THAT THIS IS THE WEAPON that the guy is trying to get when shot upon.
... at last... it is more humane to kill the guy who 98% dead anyway!
... at very last... PEOPLE DIE IN WAR... i can't believe that you don't realize that...
The pilot and co-pilot did the right thing. Roger!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Concerning the apache sound.... if i'm right this kind of helicopter "throws" sound backward... AND it is 1.9 kilometer away... No one will ever notice + if the trucks running in the back.
Denmark!
Denmark
e-mail:
-
Homepage:
http://-
Thanks for the sanity, denmark
09.02.2005 00:09
For all these people thinking this video shows a war crime or is "too brutal", go take a walk. I don't know what kind of farmer uses a modified artillery round (the long thing in the video) as a farm implement!! THAT IS AN IED! Placed in that field to detonate when a US convoy drives by.
This is one way the US military is fighting these guys, because the fighting going on in Iraq is not conventional. It is guerilla war. How do you win in a guerilla war? You out-guerilla the guerilla. And that is what we are seeing in this video.
War is hell. America doesn't start them, but we sure as hell end them.
This US citizen and patriot is one of millions growing increasingly fed up with this "Zionist Imperial Empire" Bullshit everyone loves to spew. This jew-hate crap. They've been scapegoats for long enough, don't you think? And whoever said US soldiers are "gucci wearing" should grow some nuts and ask a US marine what he/she wears in person. If you walk away with your teeth!!
Iraq will be a representative democracy as is Afghanistan. They will not bend to terrorists, and when the terrorists can't find refuge in the very Holy Land they claim to be fighting for, they are defeated....Defeated at their very roots.
You heard it here, people.
How's this food for thought? There isn't even a draft yet. America has not BEGUN to fight. Hell, the terrorists haven't even pissed off a guy like me yet!
Don't make us cross this pond.
-An American Patriot
Erik
IED
09.02.2005 17:15
Andrew
War Crime My Ass
14.02.2005 19:08
Mike
Fucking Righteous, Go America
15.02.2005 23:06
To everyone who supports America, Thanks. To all the rest of you bastards, may you die slowly and rot in hell.
Tondo
Fuck all you cry babies
22.02.2005 22:55
Rob Ray
Great Shooting!
25.02.2005 00:28
Ranger Bill
e-mail:
rangerbill@aol.com
Can you be any stupider, please?
03.03.2005 19:26
Reality Check
e-mail:
spamkills@hormel.com
GOOD SHOW
12.03.2005 15:15
You are probably all tax dodging students who need to grow uo and face the real world.
You criticise the US for it's "war for oil" but I bet you all use public transport or have cars and therefore use oil.
Oil and money make the world go round like it or not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
axel
im glad to see were doing well
17.03.2005 04:33
carlton
e-mail:
happytreefriends360@hotmail.com
Justifiable Action
17.03.2005 14:52
IMHO i think that some of you really need to get a clue.murder?...yea,. right...i see self defense.
we americans have the best toys,dont we?......thats why we are the #1 world power, and will trounce any foolish nation that we please........think about it....
also, remeber this.
john
e-mail:
john@john.org
one more thing
17.03.2005 14:58
john
they had a reason
18.03.2005 15:45
justin
A good Muslim is a Muslim who does not follow Quran
23.03.2005 07:24
Real Islam
Training Camp
“Verily those who disbelieve in the religion of Islam, the Quran, and prophet Muhammad from among the people of the scripture (jews and Christians) will abide in hell. They are the worst of Creatures.” (Quran 98:6)
“But those who disbelieve in our Quran, the fire will be shut over them.” (Quran 90:19,20)
“I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.” (Quran 8:12)
“Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah.” (Quran 3:28) i.e don’t take a friend who is not Muslim, very friendly religion, eh!
“And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way to triumph over the believers.” (Quran 4:141)
“Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, and heal the breasts of believers.” (Quran 9:14)
“And slay them wherever ye catch them.” (Quran 2:191)
“And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression.” (Quran 2:193)
Now did you realize what in the world would urge a person to explode himself or herself and kill others. I would like to hear from you, what you would do to tame those beasts. I would say either kill them or take away Quran from them. It does not matter whether he is Iraqi, Saudi, Egyptian, Iranian, Syrian, or Palestinian. Inside every Muslim, there is a sleeping terrorist waiting for the Quran teaching to wake him up. How come our idiot leaders allowed those Muslims to immigrate to our countries, live among us, consume our culture, and spread their evil teaching. (When Muslims invite people to turn to Islam, they don’t show them the ugly face. This ugly face is saved for the next generation who will be born Muslim and will have no choice but to follow and execute)
They explode themselves, they hide weapons in houses and holy places, they cheer for any falling soldier or a Navy fighting unit, they kill from their own people those who cooperate with us, the don not have a distinctive fighting uniform and when you suspect one, you can go and search him cuz it might explode in your face.
For god sake, killing a wounded terrorist is not a war crime, you idiot dummies. Don’t you think that US army could carpet bomb Iraq, but we did not because we fight with honor and it is not easy to fight cowards with honor and expect 0% faults. After conquering Iraq, the leader of the Muslim army, Khaled Ebn Elwaleed, slaughtered 40,000 Christian POWs and drained their blood in the one the Iraqi’s rivers to please and thank their psychic Allah. That is a war crime. After all that I don’t want to hear any liberal fag taking about their human rights because they simply don’t appreciate the human rights of others. Christians in Lebanon and Egypt are killed and persecuted hundred times a day and no Muslim care about their human rights. When the Muslim army conquered Egypt, there were 2 million Christians and no Muslims. Now, Muslims are 60 millions and Christians are <15 millions, in Egypt. How this happened?
In my humble opinion Mass Destructive Weapons in Middle East are not Biological Weapons, it is Islam and that what we should be fighting.
Ralf
Just Hillarious!!
23.03.2005 08:12
(P.S. Where else can me a my 'fello' mate find some more clips of this caliber?)
John. s
Brisbane, Australia
John simmins
e-mail:
John25_42@Hotmail.com
fuck it
23.03.2005 11:06
from the words of bullet tooth tony in "snatch"
"Fuck off"
pj wannabe
HOORAA!!!! When in doubt, whip it out!!!
28.03.2005 22:06
Soldier_in_Iraq
It was necessary
29.03.2005 14:35
Tyler Travis
e-mail:
yukari.sensei@gmail.com
War Crimes my foot
02.04.2005 15:21
1. If you knew what you were talking about, you would know that thermal imaging is used only in night operations. The sensors can't pic up the thermal image during the day do to the heat of the sun.
2. If you studied the gun camera clock like you should have it read 16:25. So depending on the time of year it was this could have been at sunset when the thermal sensors could pick up the images because it was either almost dark or the sun was low enough and lighting dim enough for the image sensors to work. 16:25 in military time converts to 4:25 pm standard time since your not intelligent enough to figure that out.
3. You couldn't recognise an RPG tube if that also hit you in the head. Knowing what RPG tubes look like it was evident to me that it was exactly that.
4. Looks to me like they didn't think the Apache crew could actually see them. When the gun camera adjusts at one point you can see that there was quite a distance between the gunship and the suspects. They didn't think the gunship was actually focust on them so they went for it and paid the price.
5. When in doubt take it out. They looked way to suspicious to be just delivering garden tools.
David A
e-mail:
tek203@aol.com
Murder Murder Murder!!!
04.04.2005 15:57
There are absolutely no rules of engagement which allows for an appache pilot to hit a target with bloody spent uranium shells once and whilst injured hit them again.
Concerned
Land of the free...........and full of fools
08.04.2005 08:53
This video sums up all that is totally wrong with America. They have the methods and the will to holdsway over anything they wish - just because they think they are above all others.
Our UK forces are at a level WAY above the foolish USA troops - no wonder attacks on them are on a pro-rata basis so much higher than ours. If the arab world hates the USA so much I cant blame them, acts like this will just support their feelings of hatred.
Where the USA drops a bomb from 10,000 feet we in the UK will send in ground forces to recon the situation and we then act as required. We use our brains first - our trigger fingers second.
USA = Try using your brain - the Brit's have been doing it for years.
Lee
The Truth of war and iraq
10.04.2005 20:32
well have you actually done the math about the cost of war and us usin that cost to buy oil from sumone else instead of spending billions evrey day ????
this is not a war for oil but to extend the usa and uk empire
most uk civvys dont agree with it so what
most us dont either
if you have read the art of war you would know this is a aCCUTE thing to do infront of and enemy
and last time i checked uk had the highest cost of petroleum and use ever
so .
i was in iraq i was in spec ops on the ground cant say wher and what cuz the goverment would do somthing horribly wrong ot me
they had this 15 year old boy with a gun the older men left him ther and ran through the building leaving the boy ther
the boy opend fire killed one of my team mates i and my others put him down with two shots to the head
you really think tehy caire about you are any one for that matter
if the shoes were on the other foot they would use ther power
o yeah usa supports them for a while then we invade them
war is a horribel thing war became horribel when the video camera and journlist and moder media came about ie veitnam era media
evrey joe and brit seen what was happening ther
in the war that we could of won and most of you dont say about who drug us into the war France
and what the nva was doing to the south
because they didnt want to work all day are not worship the communist god mou are ho chi
they slaughterd million more then usa b4 usa even went in oo and for your info the civvy cassultys of usa veitnam are not all by usa
only 40thousand the most mabe 70
the rest are all casultys of the nva are wronfull hits
by both sides
and has anyone ever thought of russia?? they supplied russia with lots of things
and the great usa goverment dosent want to say why the wmds are gone from ther
they didnt see it and what happend
many people well no not many people know this
but they have documents i even read sum
around my journey through iraq
russia spetnaz were ther
they had Documents lots of them burnt
and libya has not dissagreed with the russian spetnaz moving the wmds what he had left
to libya that sum info isint it
to destroy usa you must make them look like lyers and opressers and its working
well thats my two cents and if you belive it fine if you dont o well
but do you actually think china will caire about killing a civy in taiwan ???
Unknown
Only warriors know...
11.04.2005 05:43
2: There were ground forces following the truck, and the ground forces on the ground were going to stop the truck, and the driver knew this. Apaches are only used for "close ground support" which means there was ground forces in the area, US Forces never work alone, we are always grouped up.
3: When being in a "close air support" mission, you fly ahead of the convoys, and clear ANY threats.
4: When you know you are going to get stopped at a US check point, or by any US Forces, and you have WEAPONS it is known that you will be aressted and questioned.
5: The driver of the small truck herd the helicopter, when the driver spins around looking around.. he was either scanning the sky or the ground. Helicopters are very easy to hear, but not as well when they are hovering. Apaches do not fly with strobe lights on, in war. Strobe lights are only for FFA regulations.
6: Some of you think the "tractor driver" was innocent. Well when you have what could be a "live" weapon within reach of a suspected target, you are to make a "kill box" around the weapon, and anyone walking towards or even getting closer to that weapon is to be tagged as "hostile".
7: Look at how the trucks were at the begging, one was comming, and the other going. Do you think he stopped to warn them about the US Forces following him? And even warned him to get rid of his weapons in the field?
Some of you just dont know how it feels to be in the military, and the sense of "family" you get when you are in.
If you had your family driving towards people that had a gun, and even looked suspicious like they were planing to attack your familys car, you would do something about it.
Marine 4 Life
Wrong place at the wrong time.
12.04.2005 12:18
Innocent until proven guilty is not applicable on the battlefield just leave the adrenalin flow!
Enda Joyce
e-mail:
endajoyce@hotmail.com
Who cares, it's a 'WE and THEY' thang
17.04.2005 22:45
The only point is - that as far as I can tell in this indeterminable thread has not been covered - is that those getting fired on are 'THEY', also known as ragheads, arabs, sand n*gg*rs or whatever. As long as it is 'WE' that are going the ass-kicking, it will be seen as more acceptable than if the situation were reversed.
The best way to evaluate the 'fairness' or 'rightness' of a situation or action is to invert it, and evaluate it. Humour me and imagine the below...
Suppose - we are looking at footage shot from a Mi-24 Hind helicopter, as used by the Iraqis, that has a chin mounted cannon similar to the Apache. Suppose we are watching footage of them firing at American/Brit/'WE' silhouettes, and we see a panning shot of the remains of 'one of ours' hit by 30mm cannon spread across the Iraqi desert (or, for the purposes of our supposition, Kansas or Kent...).
Oh 'how evil' we would cry. Those Iraqis, firing on our poor troops/farmers. Typical.
Think about it. There is NO POINT going on and on about whether something long seen on a FLIR camera is a SAM-7 or a rake. The only issue is, that we will automatically see it as potentially acceptable as long as it is 'WE' doing the flyin' and 'THEY' are going the dyin'.
Oh - and in response to out friends from across the pond who expect us- yes I am a brit - to be grateful to them for 'winning' WWII, lets not forget that we stood alone for most of the war, and operation Sealion (the German invasion of England) was cancelled long before Pearl Harbour was attacked. Go figure.
Oh, and **9 out of 10** German troops who died in WWII died in... RUSSIA. The battle in the West was a fucking side show compared to the East, air and land battles included. Russia lost about *20 MILLION* in WWII, and yet do you hear them whining about it and demanding holocaust museums/social currency/political currency/guilt/reparations/the right to do whatever the fuck they please to a defenceless people, like America's attack dog in the middle east CONSTANTLY FUCKING DOES?
OK. I'm done. Let the flaming begin.
PS - 3 out of 4 of my last vacations were spent in the US, so before any Americans start asking my why I am so 'Anti american', I love your country and people. In fact, I like you so much, I do not hold you responsible for the actions of your federal government. You know, the one that so many of you reserve your constitutional right to arm yourselves against... ;)
arbitrary
And also...
17.04.2005 23:33
The sheer depressing nature of this thread and my response to it has led to a certain amount of reflection on my part, with the assistance of some fine red wine.
My reflections are thus -
We are just over evolved monkeys. Anything we do is usually stunted and ill-informed. It does not matter whether the weapon in our hand is a club or the trigger of an M-230A1 30-mm cannon. We are just animals, and trying to righteously analyse the actions of our species in war is as futile as throwing snowballs at the sun.
The biggest tragedy is that we are capable of something more fruitful than war, but seldom choose that path.
More to follow after more wine. Maybe.
arbitrary
you are all stupid and misinformed (except the british readers)
19.04.2005 21:58
To all that say this was sweet, all i can say is you go out to your little ranch in texas, and ill come to the rescue and blow the shit out of you with my apache.
And to all the europeans and the rest of the world, i am sorry.... i dint vote for him.
bush is wrong
Liberal Idiot
20.04.2005 13:37
John
the hell with you WHINNING CIVILIANS
29.04.2005 03:19
1) when you see your buddy get blown away by an ied or sniper your on gaurd
2) in my veiw that happened late at night because of the amount of ir coming of the ground it is hotter than hell over there and the ground is pretty cool tells me from being over there that that happened LATE at night no farmer would be working on a field late at night.
SO in short QUITE YOUR DAMN belly aching and get a life or you wanna change the military ion the US GET OFF YOUR ASS AND JOIN then when you have gone though what we have then you can talk other SHUT THE HELL UP
jason
Appalling
01.05.2005 20:15
Neil Bridgens
e-mail:
nirakara@xtra.co.nz
Ragrider
02.05.2005 07:24
Thank you for the excellent footage of the terrorist bodies being torn into itty-bitty pieces by a 30. I loved it. Sorta like watching a suicide bomber blowing little babies to pieces on a bus. I know. I've seen it. Go fuck yourself, you idiot, lying, terrorist morons. Have a nice day!! You can't win by killing yourselves. Lest you run outta guys.
Aaronboy
Ragrider
02.05.2005 07:24
Thank you for the excellent footage of the terrorist bodies being torn into itty-bitty pieces by a 30. I loved it. Sorta like watching a suicide bomber blowing little babies to pieces on a bus. I know. I've seen it. Go fuck yourself, you idiot, lying, terrorist morons. Have a nice day!! You can't win by killing yourselves. Lest you run outta guys.
Aaronboy
Good Soldiers Doing Their Job
04.05.2005 00:47
Way to go US Army.
Sergei
e-mail:
sag200882@hotmail.com
AN EXPERT OPINION
10.05.2005 01:40
I've read the above "theories"...
I've been to Iraq...And what I am about to say is gonna piss alot of you off.Read if you want,but don't get mad.If you're gonna get mad,then go away now....
Who knows?I dont.You dont.The only people who know for sure are dead.The second best opinion would come from the pilot.
I have seen,with my own two eyes,how decieving things can be.Unless you are a soldier who has been there,You cannot imagine in your wildest dreams how hard a decision like this is to make.
We are not blood thirsty killers.We do not,despite what the movies and T.V.reflect,look foward to killing our fellow human beings.We are human...just like you.We train very hard to be sharp,and do the right thing when the time comes.But underneath the uniforms and the tactical gear and the guns we are still only human...still just like you.The difference between you and us is that we must do a horrible and difficult job.As much as I and any other soldier hate to have to say this,we still make mistakes.That is just how God made us,as humans,and no amount of training and dicipline will ever change that.
I cant say if this killing was justified or not.I dont know the pilot or anyone involved personally.I am sorry that maybe some innocent people lost their lives that day.It's war,ladies and gentlemen.I know you don't want to accept that,but that's it.There is the way things are,and the way things should be.We as soldiers can't do a damn thing to change that,but we try like hell every day.
I am asking you,as a human being,to stop this.It makes little difference now if the man in the video had an RPG or a shovel.He isn't coming back either way.Somewhere out there,there is a pilot who will be haunted by these images far more than you or I,because it was his hand that took these men's lives.That is a hard burden to bear...I bear it myself.He did not kill these men for fun.He did it because at the time,he truely felt he was protecting his fellow soldiers,the Iraqi people,and the American people from bad men.As a mortal human being,ask yourself if you could have done it better had you been in that chopper.
Above all,no matter what you choose to do,remember that we as soldiers are normal human beings with a very hard job to do.We will make mistakes,but in the end we will never allow you or your sons and daughters to be harmed on our watch.
U.S.SOLDIER
It's not war
10.05.2005 02:54
manesso
e-mail:
manesso@albawaba.com
Don't be morons.
10.05.2005 03:31
CJ
I'm tired
10.05.2005 16:17
That said I'm glad we got rid of Saddam, as I am sure a lot of Iraqis are.
First the US is critized for not getting involved soon enough (or not at all) in some of the genocide going on in Africa, then we get involved in stopping genocide in Iraq and that isn't ok. Can't have both ways people.
I'm tired of the waste only in the sense that it is not appreciated and our country is villified by foreign press and the likes of CNN.
I would like to see the US pull its forces out of South Korea, Bush has already been critized for moving 3000 troops out of Korea, but I'm sure he wouldn't be critized for the same action taken in Iraq, why is that?
I would like to see our troops pull out of any base outside of the US, I could care less what the rest of the world does to itself.
If any of you think the act of suicide bombing would stop once there is no troop presence in Iraq, well you must have your head scarves tied a little too tight.
I won't partake in the Europe should be thanking us for not speaking German act, that was different time with different people, and that generation was thankful. Today Europe and the rest of the world doesn't owe us a thing, and we damn sure don't owe them anything.
Please Mr. Bush close our borders, quit giving away my money to people that come here illegally and get free medical care when my fiance can't even get insurance, (oh that's right, she isn't a minority)
I do have a question though, if this country so bad we do more people emmigrate to the US than any other country in the world, and why do thousands of Mexicans risk their live to get here, and why do people from Cuba take an incredibly risky boat ride to get here?
Must be because this such a bad country, yeah that's it.
By the way, the Apache was 2 Km out from the target.
Tony
I'm tired
10.05.2005 20:25
That said I'm glad we got rid of Saddam, as I am sure a lot of Iraqis are.
First the US is critized for not getting involved soon enough (or not at all) in some of the genocide going on in Africa, then we get involved in stopping genocide in Iraq and that isn't ok. Can't have both ways people.
I'm tired of the waste only in the sense that it is not appreciated and our country is villified by foreign press and the likes of CNN.
I would like to see the US pull its forces out of South Korea, Bush has already been critized for moving 3000 troops out of Korea, but I'm sure he wouldn't be critized for the same action taken in Iraq, why is that?
I would like to see our troops pull out of any base outside of the US, I could care less what the rest of the world does to itself.
If any of you think the act of suicide bombing would stop once there is no troop presence in Iraq, well you must have your head scarves tied a little too tight.
I won't partake in the Europe should be thanking us for not speaking German act, that was different time with different people, and that generation was thankful. Today Europe and the rest of the world doesn't owe us a thing, and we damn sure don't owe them anything.
Please Mr. Bush close our borders, quit giving away my money to people that come here illegally and get free medical care when my fiance can't even get insurance, (oh that's right, she isn't a minority)
I do have a question though, if this country so bad we do more people emmigrate to the US than any other country in the world, and why do thousands of Mexicans risk their live to get here, and why do people from Cuba take an incredibly risky boat ride to get here?
Must be because this such a bad country, yeah that's it.
By the way, the Apache was 2 Km out from the target.
Tony
We stopped an attack
12.05.2005 01:03
Berkie
THEY GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED!
16.05.2005 00:28
God Bless the U.S.!
Mike
I WAS THERE
17.05.2005 02:21
Adam
e-mail:
usarmyair@yahoo.com
Chill
17.05.2005 06:10
Arson
e-mail:
hallandrewe@yahoo.com
My Opinion
19.05.2005 19:33
What I would like to know is whether the incident occured during the initial hostilities (ie during the invasion/liberation) or after hostilities were declared over. From previous posts, some have indicated that the incident occured on the 1st of Dec, 2003 which is after the official end of hostilities.
If this occured during the initial hostilities, ie during WAR, then the pilots have the right to use overwhelming firepower and engage the enemy with prejudice.
However, if the situation occured on the 1st of Dec 2003, it is a different story. During security operations/peace enforcement, ROE/OFOF must change, and it requires training and discipline to get it right. One principle is use the minimum amount of force necessary to achieve your mission. To achieve this, it can mean firstly open display of arms (or in this case the show of presence of the helicopter. Note that the helicopter can show itself, and still be out of range of RPG's). Warning shots can then be fired. The next level would be to destroy the suspected enemy materiel, such as the technical/pickup, or the suspicious objects. The gunner chose to engage the unarmed combatant first, not the person closest to the suspected weapons. But all this still depends on the prior intel, and the gunner could have been justified to engage the enemy first without resorting to the rules of escalation of force.
The last engagement prima facie, is disturbing to myself and to many other people. The crew clearly stated that the person was wounded. Under the ROE/OFOF that I have seen, "wounded" personnel are not to be engaged, unless they pose an imminent threat to yourself, friendly forces or other persons it is your duty to protect. The gunner had the luxury to wait until the said wounded posed a threat(by picking up a weapon etc). Note that the helicopters are well out of range of RPG's (which have a range of approx 300~350m for moving and ~500 for static targets). The excuse of "putting someone out of their misery" is poor, and no commander should ever accept that. That decision is not for anyone to make other than the wounded person. You wouldn't shoot your badly wounded brother and say it was to put him out of his misery.
In insurgency/guerrila warfare, it is very important to win the hearts and minds of the people. It was absolutely irresponsible for the person to release this video to the public. Never brag about how many people you kill to the public, especially in insurgency/security operations. It may be good to show this footage to your own soldiers to boost their morale and confidence in theatre. But when it is released to the public, it can and will be taken out of context and subject to scrutiny as it has here. What is worse is that it will be used by the insurgents to encite disgust within the local populous and encourage support for their cause.
With the benefit of hindsight and a lot of time to think, a luxury not available to apache crew, it would have been better to engage the vehicles and let the insurgents(assuming they were) live and tell the tale. I would rather them tell fearful stories to other insurgents (of high-tech US weapons) than make martyrs of them, which will strengthen the insurgent cause. Like someone else had mentioned before, killing 3 insurgents just makes another 3 families of insurgents. I must qualify this suggestion again that I have the benefit of time and hindsight, I am not saying that this is what the crew should have done, as they did not have as much time to think about this as myself.
Some other people have suggested that since the insurgents don't adhere to the laws of armed conflict, then the US should disregard them as well. To win the war, the US must abide by the rules, otherwise they will be no better than the insurgents (An analogy is "criminals don't abide by the law, so why should police?"). The military needs prove to the people (of Iraq) that they are friendly, compassionate (to civs) and just to captured enemies. Give the people a reason to support the US over the insurgents.
Lastly, in the situation the crew of the Apache may think that their actions were right. I can respect that in the heat of the moment to them it was right. It has happened to all of us that what we thought was right at the time, may at a latter point be the wrong course. The crew are Officers/WO, they should accept responsibility for all their actions. We may not need to prosecute the crew, but if upon reflection of their actions, they believe they could have done it a better way, let it be a lesson learned to them and the rest of his unit.
Oz
Apache shooting video
19.05.2005 23:00
Sergeant
My opinion again
20.05.2005 06:57
The US is not fighting a conventional war anymore. In successful counter insurgency operations, there is a single most important point. Win the hearts and minds of the people. An insurgent is a brother, father, mother, cousin, sister etc of the local populous. They are embedded and it doesn't take many degrees of seperation to link the people of Iraq with the insurgents. Every wrongful civilian death, or perceived civilian death will strengthen the insurgent cause. The US soldiers on the other hand are foreigners. Though some may have family links to some Iraqis, they don't have intimate knowledge and connection such as the insurgents. Counter insurgency is an uphill battle. The point I'm going to make about this paragraph is going to be controversial. In the greater scheme of things in this insurgency/war, it is better for a coalition soldier to die than an innocent civilian (I'm not saying the "farmers" are innocent, but just making this comment in general). I don't make this comment lightly as I know soldiers who are in Iraq. But the fact is this;
A soldier (in the US, UK, AS and most coalition soldiers) is a volunteer. He/she walked into the recruiting office and signed the dotted line to join the military. No soldier can argue they were deceived to believe the military is safe. They know in the back of their minds of the possibility to be deployed and be put in harms way. A soldier is paid to be in a foreign war zone, and implicitly volunteered to be there. I don't think anyone can dispute these facts. A soldier volunteers to be in harms way! It is a sacrifice that soldiers make for others. It is their duty to protect the innocent.
An innocent civilian (yes they do exist) in Iraq on the other hand is there because they were born into that circumstance. In general, if they had the money and the means (visas/passports etc) they would leave Iraq. But for most Iraqis, no one ever gave them a choice to be in their current, dangerous situation. They were just born there.
I don't think any reasonable person can dispute this either.
Now to why I think it is better for a coalition soldier to die. On the one hand, you have a person who volunteers to be put in harms way and willing to make a sacrifice for others. On the other hand you have a person who was just there by circumstance, without the choice to be put in harms way or not. I wouldn't say the soldier deserves to die, but I would say it is more fitting for a soldier to make the sacrifice than a civilian. Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
Secondly, (and this will sound cold hearted) if a coalition soldier dies, his family at home will grieve his loss, and the military loses a soldier. It may encourage or discourage his/her family and friends to join up the military. But the soldier's family knows the risk and burden of the profession. However if an innnocent civilian is killed in Iraq (esp if they believe it was caused by the coalition), that person's family (even if they are coalition sympathisers) would be more inclined to seek vengence. The insurgents would encite them to perceive it was the act of a foreign military, and turn the family attitudes against the coalition. Soon you are not dealing with one less innocent civilian, but a whole new family of insurgents.
The point of the above is this. Some say shoot first, because if there may be a risk to you an your soldiers, its better them than us. Even if there is a probablity that they are civilians. It is a soldiers duty to take that burden of risk (and take the bullet) not the civilian that they are suppose to protect. It doesn't work the other way.
The following is out of Chapter 2, FM 100-20. It's a leaf out of US doctrine, and provides some useful information on how insurgency/counter insurgency should be conducted. A lot of people still generalise Iraq as a war, in a conventional sense (ie using principles of firepower, protection etc etc). Read up on how successful counter insurgency wars have been won (Malaya) and lost (vietnam) and note the change in principles of warfare. Unfortunately the current effort does not reflect on the principles that have won those wars (In my opinion, not fact). However US doctrine does reflect good principles, some of which is included below.
"Security includes all activities to protect the populace from the insurgency and to provide a safe environment for national development. Security of the populace and government resources is essential to counterinsurgency. Protection and control of the populace permit development. They deny the enemy access to popular support. The security effort should establish an environment in which the local populace can provide for its own security with limited government support.
Neutralization is the physical and psychological separation of the insurgents from the population. It includes all lawful activities to disrupt, disorganize, and defeat an insurgent organization-except those which degrade the government's legitimacy. Neutralization can take many forms. It can involve public exposure and discrediting of the leaders during a low level of insurgency with little political violence; it also can involve arrest and prosecution when laws have been broken, or combat action when the insurgency escalates.
All neutralization efforts must respect the country's legal system. They must scrupulously observe constitutional provisions regarding rights and responsibilities. The need for security forces to act lawfully is essential not only for humanitarian reasons but also because this reinforces government legitimacy while denying the insurgents an exploitable issue. Special emergency powers may exist by legislation or decree. Government agents must not abuse these powers because they might well lose the popular support they need. Denying the insurgents' legitimate issues discredits their propaganda and leaders."
The part I would like to highlight above is the "neutralization" efforts. Note that they mention it should respect the (occupied) country's legal system and the need to act lawfully. I mentioned earlier that you cannot bend the rules, and the above gives a clear reason why.
oz
A little bit more
20.05.2005 13:45
The US is not fighting a conventional war anymore. In successful counter insurgency operations, there is a single most important point. Win the hearts and minds of the people. An insurgent is a brother, father, mother, cousin, sister etc of the local populous. They are embedded and it doesn't take many degrees of seperation to link the people of Iraq with the insurgents. Every wrongful civilian death, or perceived civilian death will strengthen the insurgent cause. The US soldiers on the other hand are foreigners. Though some may have family links to some Iraqis, they don't have intimate knowledge and connection such as the insurgents. Counter insurgency is an uphill battle. The point I'm going to make about this paragraph is going to be controversial. In the greater scheme of things in this insurgency/war, it is better for a coalition soldier to die than an innocent civilian (I'm not saying the "farmers" are innocent, but just making this comment in general). I don't make this comment lightly as I know soldiers who are in Iraq. But the fact is this;
A soldier (in the US, UK, AS and most coalition soldiers) is a volunteer. He/she walked into the recruiting office and signed the dotted line to join the military. No soldier can argue they were deceived to believe the military is safe. They know in the back of their minds of the possibility to be deployed and be put in harms way. A soldier is paid to be in a foreign war zone, and implicitly volunteered to be there. I don't think anyone can dispute these facts. A soldier volunteers to be in harms way! It is a sacrifice that soldiers make for others. It is their duty to protect the innocent.
An innocent civilian (yes they do exist) in Iraq on the other hand is there because they were born into that circumstance. In general, if they had the money and the means (visas/passports etc) they would leave Iraq. But for most Iraqis, no one ever gave them a choice to be in their current, dangerous situation. They were just born there.
I don't think any reasonable person can dispute this either.
Now to why I think it is better for a coalition soldier to die. On the one hand, you have a person who volunteers to be put in harms way and willing to make a sacrifice for others. On the other hand you have a person who was just there by circumstance, without the choice to be put in harms way or not. I wouldn't say the soldier deserves to die, but I would say it is more fitting for a soldier to make the sacrifice than a civilian. Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
Secondly, (and this will sound cold hearted) if a coalition soldier dies, his family at home will grieve his loss, and the military loses a soldier. It may encourage or discourage his/her family and friends to join up the military. But the soldier's family knows the risk and burden of the profession. However if an innnocent civilian is killed in Iraq (esp if they believe it was caused by the coalition), that person's family (even if they are coalition sympathisers) would be more inclined to seek vengence. The insurgents would encite them to perceive it was the act of a foreign military, and turn the family attitudes against the coalition. Soon you are not dealing with one less innocent civilian, but a whole new family of insurgents.
The point of the above is this. Some say shoot first, because if there may be a risk to you an your soldiers, its better them than us. Even if there is a probablity that they are civilians. It is a soldiers duty to take that burden of risk (and take the bullet) not the civilian that they are suppose to protect. It doesn't work the other way.
The following is out of Chapter 2, FM 100-20. It's a leaf out of US doctrine, and provides some useful information on how insurgency/counter insurgency should be conducted. A lot of people still generalise Iraq as a war, in a conventional sense (ie using principles of firepower, protection etc etc). Read up on how successful counter insurgency wars have been won (Malaya) and lost (vietnam) and note the change in principles of warfare. Unfortunately the current effort does not reflect on the principles that have won those wars (In my opinion, not fact). However US doctrine does reflect good principles, some of which is included below.
"Security includes all activities to protect the populace from the insurgency and to provide a safe environment for national development. Security of the populace and government resources is essential to counterinsurgency. Protection and control of the populace permit development. They deny the enemy access to popular support. The security effort should establish an environment in which the local populace can provide for its own security with limited government support.
Neutralization is the physical and psychological separation of the insurgents from the population. It includes all lawful activities to disrupt, disorganize, and defeat an insurgent organization-except those which degrade the government's legitimacy. Neutralization can take many forms. It can involve public exposure and discrediting of the leaders during a low level of insurgency with little political violence; it also can involve arrest and prosecution when laws have been broken, or combat action when the insurgency escalates.
All neutralization efforts must respect the country's legal system. They must scrupulously observe constitutional provisions regarding rights and responsibilities. The need for security forces to act lawfully is essential not only for humanitarian reasons but also because this reinforces government legitimacy while denying the insurgents an exploitable issue. Special emergency powers may exist by legislation or decree. Government agents must not abuse these powers because they might well lose the popular support they need. Denying the insurgents' legitimate issues discredits their propaganda and leaders."
The part I would like to highlight above is the "neutralization" efforts. Note that they mention it should respect the (occupied) country's legal system and the need to act lawfully. I mentioned earlier that you cannot bend the rules, and the above gives a clear reason why.
Oz
Not quite so the land of the free
20.05.2005 15:12
How many people in this world live in a defacto marriage, or with their partners out of wedlock? A lot. You would think this is a right that most people can enjoy in the free world, and even in "oppressive" states.
Unless of course you live in one of the 7 states in the US which specifically outlaws cohabitation out of wedlock. It sounds ridiculous doesn't it. Well this is the truth for those unfortunate enough to live North Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Florida, Michigan, Mississippi and North Dakota. True that it is rarely enforced, but in the last 8 years there have been 3 dozen charges of this offence in North Carolina. For those who think this is just an old relic, of an 18th century law and has no relevance in today's society, think again. "In January, the North Dakota House defeated a challenge to its cohabitation law on a 52-37 vote." (see link below). The house rejected the challenge to this law this year (2005!!), which means the majority of the elected representatives in North Dakota actually support this ridiculous law.
I had to get this out of my system. I am tired of those who argue superiority of the US in the world stage. Maybe they should look within themselves and fix their own country up before they f&@K things up in someone else's country. For those who still feel strongly about their blind faith in the US, talk to a foreigner and see what their opinion is of this law. And then ask them if it really represents freedom and democracy.
BTW, I don't really hate the US. It is just that some people, are poorly travelled and are really ignorant of what the rest of the world does. It happens in all countries, including mine. I just get really pissed off at those who still think might is right and the US has every right to enter any country it wants - because they are morally superior.
Don't be blinded
You're not there
21.05.2005 17:54
Thanks.
U.S. Army Airborne Artillery 82nd. Deployment to Iraq 2005 05 25
Diabolus
You Britts need to take a pill and remember your history
25.05.2005 18:36
Dave in America
e-mail:
USsavedtheUK@WWII.com
just farmers? whatever
25.05.2005 21:39
in closing to all the men and women in iraq and afghanistan- "HOOAH"- keep up the good work and i'll be joining you soon.
spc. moody
e-mail:
moodswing23@hotmail.com
some information you should consider
27.05.2005 19:37
karog
WOO HOO
30.05.2005 08:20
Kevin
e-mail:
killemall@usarulez.net
I've been there
02.06.2005 21:06
Hartsfield
Perfect
04.06.2005 23:46
Nolbe
e-mail:
eighthstreet@earthlink.net
Get the whole story first!
08.06.2005 19:06
Chris
e-mail:
lenny1979@vodafon.net
One for 'WOO HOO' Kevin
08.06.2005 19:31
Chris
shooting
11.06.2005 21:01
Bill
Shooting (Bill)
15.06.2005 05:17
Just my two Canadian cents
USMC Ret.
Bill.... Semper Fi~!!!
Apatche pilots, and all others in harms way. THANK YOU~!!!!!!!!!!
The rest of you...... go fuck your hat~!!!
JarHead
e-mail:
whenindoubtemptytheclip@shithappens.haha
Geneva Convention?
16.06.2005 03:45
SumTinWongwitu
This isn't the whole film
20.06.2005 08:36
John
.
21.06.2005 23:47
.
e-mail:
.
Homepage:
http://.
Naive armchair quarterbacks
25.06.2005 21:34
Matt
Space Rock
27.06.2005 19:20
It is a statistical certainty that a rock from outer space, sizable enough to threaten the survival of the human species, will one day strike the earth. However the catch is we haven't a clue when that will be.
We face larger problems now that we're all only just beginning to understand: potential climate change, global over-population, asteroid strikes. There is a very real threat that these things will catch up with us while we bicker and squable. We need to continue (and improve vastly) our collaboration with one another - human-being to human-being.
This thread demonstrates a tiny slice of the variety of beliefs and opinions out there in the world. Further, it shows the futility of the prospect (for all our debates and arguments) that we might all arrive at agreement on them all too.
American, European, right-wing, left-wing - war-crime or no, we have bigger fish to fry. We need to bring our collective heads together to solve these problems. We have to learn to 'all get along', and we all have to have the maturity to accept the differing beliefs of others.
Easier said than done.
So, we need to work on dissolving borders (in their various manifestations). And this, believe it or not, is not a job solely for politicians - but everyone. We need to look beyond our own country's borders, class-systems and paradigms. We need to see what else is really happening out there in the world, in order to become more accustomed with it. In addition to our own local newspaper, we really should be reading 9 other international ones as well (enter the WWW).
What I'm really trying to say is that it is our individual responsibility as human-beings to educate ourselves about what is going on out there. Not immediately, but over time, the affect this will have will be on our ability to simply Accept.
It is obvious that whilst some posters to this thread understand this notion, many others do not.
World Peace.
---
Oh, and on the subject as to whether this is a war-crime or not, I reserve judgement. I'd need to see more footage from before and after the event.
Marvin
Ignorance is Bliss
02.07.2005 05:44
2. RPGs are reuseable. You don't throw them away.
3. You think the people on the ground knew the Apache was there? HA! Not only could they not see the helicopter, they could not hear it because it was so far away.
4. War is not about a fair fight. It is about killing the enemy before he kills you.
5. If you do not have the courage to fight for the freedoms you are using (abusing), you should not criticize those who do.
6. Don't let the facts get in the way of your opinion.
Former Military
Farm tools??? Farmers??? You must be joking
03.07.2005 04:13
I would like to hear from those who think these are clearly farmers, and please explain how their movements were even close to those of a farmer. Please take into account that this was in the middle of a field in the middle of the night. I don't want to hear how it may be possible that these were farmers. I want to hear how they were obviously farmers. It may be possible that Elvis still lives, but I don't care to hear the crazy theories. I can't generate any possible way that these individuals' actions were anything other than bizzare and irrational if they are to be attributed to a farmer.
CombatComProg
KILL THOSE TERRIOST THUGS
03.07.2005 16:17
Chris
iraq war
06.07.2005 04:20
if you notice the second individual hit is opening a bag and pulling something tubular out
he has a weapon. and is trying to fight back...
if he was a farmer... he would have ran.. or layed on the ground prone
dave
wounded was killed !!!
09.07.2005 23:42
I cant beleve that a human being can kill awounded helpless man !!!
come on guys, he was a wounded and he had no thing to do.....he was unable to rise his hand so how he could be danger and hurt the fucken Americans......
The Arabian
Oh pity!
10.07.2005 04:09
BULLSHIT!
jack
e-mail:
westport55@aol.com
one and a half years later......
10.07.2005 19:59
mass murder is a speciality
19.01.2004 12:29
I know that this is totally the wrong thing to say, but....oh boy, will i be having a good gloat next time i hear of any "brave" coalition airmen being blown out of the sky. seriously though, it makes me sick to see things like this go unnoticed in the media, and yet if a fatarsed yank so much as breaks a lens in his gucci wraparounds in the midst of combat, were supposed to shed a tear and spare a thought for them and their families. Fuck em, if they're dumb enough to serve the state, they deserve all they get. My apologies for being thoughtless and reactionary.
wrongdoer
Nigel
beg your pardon?????
10.07.2005 21:58
Jon
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Um, you mean like the brits asked us in WW1 and WW2?
thierry
O-kay!
10.07.2005 22:29
I cant beleve that a human being can kill a wounded helpless man !!!
Then killing innocent people by exploding bombs strapped to ones self is totally unimaginable, right?
"Wow, do you have a lot to learn in life.
Jerry
Quick Question
11.07.2005 15:48
Mustaf
e-mail:
Mustaf_erod_pyur_oupr@yahoo.com
Homepage:
http://same
Why?
12.07.2005 22:19
Yourmom
e-mail:
yourmom@suckmyballs.com
Homepage:
http://fuckyou.com
Innocent????
15.07.2005 17:15
Shannon
Liberal Socialists don't understand this...
16.07.2005 15:01
No shocking content, but a proof of compassion.
Jerry
Bandwagon
17.07.2005 11:23
First off, there's so much talk about how calm the Apache helicopter and its crew are. So what's with the guy wearing the big veil thing? (It looks like hair in the video.) He meets with the first guy, they both look around suspiciously, then the veil guy pull something out of the truck and sprints towards the field. Well, why is he sprinting? If he's an innocent farmer just carrying his tools to his tractor, he has no need to sprint. And then, oh my gosh, he quickly disposes of the 'tool' in the nearby field. Why is he acting like that? Oh I don't know... MAYBE HE REALIZES THAT HOLDING AN RPG ISN'T THE BEST THING TO DO IN FRONT OF AN AMERICAN HELICOPTER.
Check this out:
That should be enough proof for you fools. Heh, it really bugs me when people just make up stuff in order to indict people they hate. Reminds me of what Adolf Hitler did to the Jews. Go figure.
Ezekiel Victor
e-mail:
ezekielvictor@hotmail.com
Homepage:
http://www.EzekielVictor.com/
Bandwagon
17.07.2005 19:48
First off, there's so much talk about how calm the Apache helicopter and its crew are. So what's with the guy wearing the big veil thing? (It looks like hair in the video.) He meets with the first guy, they both look around suspiciously, then the veil guy pull something out of the truck and sprints towards the field. Well, why is he sprinting? If he's an innocent farmer just carrying his tools to his tractor, he has no need to sprint. And then, oh my gosh, he quickly disposes of the 'tool' in the nearby field. Why is he acting like that? Oh I don't know... MAYBE HE REALIZES THAT HOLDING AN RPG ISN'T THE BEST THING TO DO IN FRONT OF AN AMERICAN HELICOPTER.
Check this out:
That should be enough proof for you fools. Heh, it really bugs me when people just make up stuff in order to indict people they hate. Reminds me of what Adolf Hitler did to the Jews. Go figure.
Ezekiel Victor
e-mail:
evictor@ezekielvictor.com
Homepage:
http://www.EzekielVictor.com/
irresponsible accusations
19.07.2005 03:31
joe
Don't over-think this thing
19.07.2005 17:26
Tod
e-mail:
indydba@yahoo.com
good view
21.07.2005 07:32
But then again, even though they were insurgents, and even though the origional poster on this forum (as well as several other dimwits) has his head stuck up his ass.
Lets not start to confuse the issue with facts!
Jerry
Jerry
Nazi's in Red, White & Blue???
21.07.2005 10:49
""On the morning of November 29, 1864, 600 Cheyenne and Arapahos camped on a bend of Sand Creek were awakened by the sound of charging hooves. Two thirds of these 600 were women and children as the government granted able bodied men to go east and hunt buffalo to feed their hungry families. Only 35 braves were in the camp. This made the ensuing charge all the more frightening for the women, children, elders, and remaining braves.
So great was the fear of the coming charge that men, women, and children ran from their lodges into the biting cold taking no time to fully dress. The partially dressed Indians began to gather under a huge American flag above Black Kettles lodge (Black Kettle was given the huge American flag and peace medals by Abraham Lincoln and Colonel A. B. Greenwood in Washington only a year earlier and was told that as long as the American flag was above them, no one would be harmed). The braves present surrounded the women and children gathered under the flag. At 8:00 am more than 700 cavalry men under the command of Colonel John M. Chivington and Major Scott J. Anthony, rode in and fired on the huddled Indians from two directions. After the initial charge the US soldiers dismounted and continued the indiscriminate killing of men, women, and children. During the killing unspeakable atrocities and mutilations were committed by the soldiers. Accounts from two white men, John S. Smith and Lieutenant James Connor, described the acts of dehumanization."
According to John S. Smith, Colonel Chivington knew these Indians to be peaceful before the massacre. Smith witnessed, as did helpless Indian mothers and fathers, young children having their sex organs cut away. U.S. soldiers mutilated Native American women, cutting away their breasts and removing all other sex organs. After the Massacre, soldiers displayed the women's severed body parts on their hats and stretched them over their saddle-bows while riding in the ranks. The sex organs of every male were removed in the most grotesque manner. One soldier boasted that he would make a tobacco pouch with the removed privates of White Antelope, a respected elder. Conner witnessed a soldier displaying the body parts of a woman on a stick. The fingers of Indians were cut off to get at the rings on them. Connor remembered a baby only a few months old who had been hidden in the feed box of a wagon for protection. When the soldiers discovered the baby some time later, the baby was thrown onto the frozen ground to die. In going over the site the next day, it was noted that every corpse was mutilated in some way, and scalped.
Two other men, Robert Bent and James Beckwourth were forced to ride with Chivington that morning. They recorded similar images. Beckwourth noted that before the massacre, White Antelope (age 75) ran out to meet the soldiers. He came running out to meet the command, holding up his hands and saying Stop! Stop! He spoke in as plain English as I can. He stopped and folded his arms until shot down. Bent remembered seeing the shooting of a little girl carrying a white flag. He also remembered seeing an Indian woman on the ground whose leg had been shattered by a shell. As she lay helpless, a soldier drew his saber, breaking the arm she had risen in defense. She then rolled over on her other side. The soldier did not leave until breaking her other arm with his saber, whereupon he left without killing her. Bent saw a pregnant woman who had been cut open and disemboweled. Her unborn child lay mutilated almost beyond human recognition beside her. Quite a number of mothers were slain; still clinging to their babies. Such was the scene that cold gray morning at Sand Creek, November 29, 1864."
Just another example of people heavily out numbered and out-armed being slaughtered by 'brave warriors' of the United States. Don't get me wrong, the English have committed atrocities as well, but you all need to have a fair end educated understanding on your country's history before you renounce the rest of the world claiming that the US is whiter than white. I have a mate in the Army as well, and I suppoprt him. So you Americans, your land of the free and brave was founded on tyranny and persecution! I would also like to say to the soldier who is back from a tour of duty in Iraq, you claim to be a warrior, but any cunt with the most basic of training can pick up a pistol, rifle or launcher or some kind and kill people from a distance - real warriors, for the most part, are a thing of the past - the Samurai of Japan, the Knights of the Middle Ages, Roman Gladiators, the Braves of the Cheyenne, and the warriors of the other tribes of North America. One might even suggest that the lowley Iraqi militiaman taking on the 'MIGHTY US of A' is a brave man - certainly braver than the men in this video! Technology will only get you so far in War, the troops are the asset - just look to Vietnam for confirmation!
Alex
Nazi's in Red, White & Blue????
21.07.2005 10:56
Alex
Too Quick To Judge!
21.07.2005 11:05
Alex
An Australian Perspective
24.07.2005 09:56
However..
We have a very short clip of the "kill" and know very little about the operation at hand, I doubt a lone chopper is cruising around Iraqi farmland picking off civvies for fun, he has a mission and these scum appear to be it.
They have been successfully ID'd, and are armed. They would not be able to hear the chopper, all the speculation about surrenders is total crap.
GOD BLESS the soldiers, airmen and marines of the USA, I am very happy Australia stands with her ally in defeating these islamofacist MONSTERS. My prayers are with with all the Iraqis hoping and working for a future without terrorism, the iraqi people who are fighting against the insurgency, against the scum shown in this video.
Aussie Luke
e-mail:
angiras@telstra.com
Brilliant logic there, Lee...
30.07.2005 00:36
08.04.2005 09:53
I am so proud to be British - at least we think before we take an action that could destroy someones life.
USA = Try using your brain - the Brit's have been doing it for years.
Lee
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I am so proud to be British - at least we think before we take an action that could destroy someones life......."
Wow Lee. you limes got your ass's shot off in the Revolutionary War, because you were too stupid to use the brilliant tactic of marching right out in an open street or field, to be picked off by hillbilly hick-like colonial types that knew how to hid behind a tree or a rock or around a corner.
"USA = Try using your brain - the Brit's have been doing it for years. .."
brilliant military logic you had there Lee, to have some asshole blow a whistle and you came charging out of your trenches by the thousands armed only with single shot Enfields, and Webley pistols. and walk or run accross no mans land, only to be sawed in two by a couple guys with a machine gun. (52,000 Brits lost in one day)
Addaboy Lee! Anymore "brilliant" advice?????
Jerry
Neuromancer
30.07.2005 03:24
Neuro
BRITISH
02.08.2005 00:05
What banana boat were you born on? If you are going to make any relevant debate here, it should be whether or not the apache should have opened fire on the enemy (which is what they are). But really, what else are they going to do? This is WAR. Its them or you, chief.
It is absolutely clear on that clip that those INSURGENTS were not carrying about "farming" equipment. Come on, for one why would the guy be Running swiftly to drop the first item? In my guess the first item is a RPG-7 (or some type of RPG equip) covered in a rag of some sort. The second item, is the warhead (grenade). I fail to see how anyone can be as ignorant to think that the second guy to be shot is doing anything but try to uncover the RPG to Shoot back!
I admire all UK and US soldiers in Iraq trying to do the best they can and stay alive.
BRITISH
Perspective
02.08.2005 00:54
Jim Smith
e-mail:
jsmith@iceautomationgroup.com
Yes!
03.08.2005 14:21
Jim...I wish all the Americans posting on this article had their heads screwed on like you seem to.
Lastly, to that Jerry bloke talking about battle tactics during WWI when British & Germans would charge each others trench's. Obviously war has evolved since then, but that is how battles were fought back then, similar to land battles throughout history but instead of bow & arrows, spears, catapaults, etc... you substitute it with rifles, pistols, grenades (and other projectiles), also the dreaded mustard gas - this explains why there was such a massive loss of life, and was a great lesson for mankind.
If you go back to July 1863 you'll find a battle that claimed thousands of U.S. lives. These are the facts:
Battle Facts
90,000 Union Soldiers in Fight
85.000 Confederate Soldiers
28,000 Confederate Killed, Wounded, and Missing
23,000 Union Killed and Missing
10,000 KilledOutright
51,000 Americans killed in a three day battle. Roughly 50 years earlier than WWI and 51,000 Americans have killed each other in one battle with less sophisticated armoury - pretty terrible I would say. Their battle tactics are somewhat familiar as well:-
Then came the climax of the Battle of Gettysburg...with a salute from Longstreet, General George E. Pickett, in a desperate attempt to recapture the partial success of the preceding day, spearheaded one of the most incredible efforts in military history...a massed infantry assault of 15,000 Confederate troops across the open field toward the Union center on Cemetery Ridge. One mile they marched, while being pounded by artillery and rifle fire. Through it all, Pickett's men reached but failed to break the Union line, and the magnificent effort ended in disaster. The tide of the Confederacy had "swept to its crest, paused, and receded." In 50 minutes, 10,000 in the assault had become casualties, and the attack - forever to be known as Pickett's Charge - was now history.
Jerry, for some reason people don't seem to learn from war, but you should learn your history - the Americans marched through an open field to their death, just as thousands of Britains did in WWI.
Alex
SSG FUERST
04.08.2005 01:53
SSG Fuerst
e-mail:
tracy.fuerst@us.army.mil
SSG FUERST
04.08.2005 11:47
Alex
End it!
04.08.2005 12:06
Alex
WOO HOO - KEVIN
05.08.2005 12:28
30.05.2005 09:20
"WE ARE THE USA BABY THE #1 COUNTRY IN THE WORLD SO BRITS CAN GO COWER IN FEAR AND CALL US WHEN THE GERMANS INVADE AGAIN YOU LIMEY WANKERS. WE RULE EVERYONE DONT EVER FORGET THAT." Kevin.
Hahahahahahah!!!!
KEVIN - You really are a misguided fool aren't you. The USA will not be the worlds biggest superpower soon mate (militarily it will remain so for a bit, but economically it is now no longer). China's economy is growing 3 TIMES faster than yours, yes 3 TIMES!!! They have a better work ethic, somewhat similar to an ant colony. And they are the 'red peril'. The US only got involved in WW1 because you feared your commercial shipping was under threat, and even then only joined in the last year of the war - the reason for not joining sooner was because of politics and, dare I say you yanks were a little tender to be involved. Has anyone ever said that we Brits didn't want your involvement in WWII, or that we were not thankful - I don' think so. Victory in WWII was down to the Russians as much as it was down to the Yanks. You sound like a bit of a coward yourself. You may think that you rule everyone, however think about this :
If there was another world war, then it might possibly involve nuclear weapons, a scary thought. But the USA should be more scared than anyone about a nuclear threat. The old soviet bloc countries, China, North Korea and Middle East Nations such as Iran all have nuclear capability (I think), some of them would certainly be willing to use them on the US (Iran - has thousand of willing Martyrs who will give their lives for such a mission). Don't forget that the USA doesn't even have the most amount nuclear warheads, I believe that Russia still has more than you. I have not even mentioned terrorist cells, Bin Laden's lot, and the others. If one of these groups get their hands on nuclear weapons (which they can easily afford) then you'll find out you don't rule shit! People who have attitudes like you are the ones who make people dislike the USA. I seriously hope terrorists never get their hands on nuclear weapons, which is why this war on terror must happen, but like I said, if they do then you can kiss your 'superior' country goodbye, because major cities like Washington and New York will be destroyed like Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Think before you talk, and take some spelling lessons okay.
I don't want to offend any Americans, I like America and visit regularly, but people like this guy have gotta go!!!!
Jehan
Hindsight
10.08.2005 03:19
al
Terrosist
10.08.2005 16:34
Rick
e-mail:
romans109@austin.rr.com
Terrosist
10.08.2005 16:34
Rick
e-mail:
romans109@austin.rr.com
just
16.08.2005 12:59
THANX Alex
logicaL!
max
The rallying howl of the ignorant
19.08.2005 08:16
2:15 - Truck driver hears the roar of the Apache guns and gallops over to where his "farm equipment" is. (if you think 1km is far enough to dissipate the noise a 30mm cannon makes, you're a fool).
2:26 - Apache opens fire on the man in the middle of the field who had just exited his "farming equipment".
2:27 - The man to the right instinctively hits the ground and protects himself from the gunfire.
2:27-2:31 - The fat guy who had been driving the truck is hurriedly opening a long bag. You can see him empty the contents into the ground.
2:31 and beyond - the Apache crew roasts the rest of them.
Okay. Let me just pose a little hypothetical to these posters and blogger (although I doubt the latter will see it).
Let's suppose you're in a warzone and you spot a helicopter hovering nearby. You are unloading your irrigation pipes when suddenly you hear 30mm gunfire from said helicopter. Ten seconds elapse and you hear even louder gunfire and your buddy gets blown to pieces while your accomplice hits the dirt and tries to take cover. Do you honestly think that after seeing this your visceral reaction would be to hastily unpack the rest of your irrigation pipes and install them? How stupid are you?
Now I know what kind of barrage of ignorance will follow this post so let me preemptively rebut a few of them. First off, I'm a very strong anti-Bush activist. I hate the war in Iraq and I hate what Bush is doing to the United States. I was born in America and I love this country more than anything else, but I will never subject myself to blind patriotism or blind hatred. I will alwasy be absorbing more information and deciding where I feel America should move. It's when people take a stubborn stance and stop using their senses and start using their emotions that one becomes even worse than the opposition.
The audio you hear is the chatter between helicopter pilot, gunner, and superior officer. You don't hear any laughter in their discussion. Every time that the gunner sees something that he feels could be a threat to him and he instinticely wants to pull the trigger, he has to check with headquarters. That's what you hear. I could easily link the video every one of you has seen of rebels in civilian clothing shooting down a supply helicopter with a surface to air shoulder mounted rocket launcher. Can you simpletons even comprehend what it's like to be constantly assessing threats just to survive?
Hate George W. Bush - hell hate America if it makes you feel better - for the war in Iraq. But don't turn this into another Vietnam where the focus of hate becomes the troops. Even though this was clearly not an example of breaking the Geneva Convention, the rules of war have been broken in every war and will continue to be broken in every conflict in the future. Blaming the soldiers on the ground is unmitigated ignorance.
Maybi'maconservative?
liberal morons
19.08.2005 08:23
2:26 - Apache opens fire on the man in the middle of the field who had just exited his "farming equipment".
2:27 - The man to the right instinctively hits the ground and protects himself from the gunfire.
2:27-2:31 - The fat guy who had been driving the truck is hurriedly opening a long bag. You can see him empty the contents into the ground.
2:31 and beyond - the Apache crew roasts the rest of them.
Okay. Let me just pose a little hypothetical to this poster and blogger (although I doubt the latter will see it).
Let's suppose you're in a warzone and you spot a helicopter hovering nearby. You are unloading your irrigation pipes when suddenly you hear 30mm gunfire from said helicopter. Ten seconds elapse and you hear even louder gunfire and your buddy gets blown to pieces while your accomplice hits the dirt and tries to take cover. Do you honestly think that after seeing this your visceral reaction would be to hastily unpack the rest of your irrigation pipes and install them? How stupid are you? Seriously?
fuck
e-mail:
you damn idiots
Facts?
19.08.2005 15:01
jg
How would you know?
19.08.2005 16:33
Gen. Patton
e-mail:
utimaddog@yahoo.com
Apache Video
19.08.2005 16:37
Chris
Alex and the rest of you retards
19.08.2005 17:17
Gen. Patton
You hippies have no idea
22.08.2005 17:09
This took place in an area where there were reports of weapons trafficing. The guys ran to hide a SNIPER RIFLE and ammo into the field. The second farmer was attempting to pull out an RPG or MANPAD. When ground forces went out there the next day they found a sniper rifle, ammo, manpad tubeing and a hand. Serves them right. They had weapons they were going to use on american or british soldiers. A terrorist tactic is to drop your weapon and act like nothing is wrong. So do you just let them get a away to attack another day??? Granted they shouldnt have shot the wounded guy but shit happens. The "expert"analysis in this article is crap. If you new what the symbology means you would know the time displayed is in Zulu time, meaning it was not early in the morning but rather 3 or 4 hours earlier. You hippies feel so bad for these poor terrorist. By the way, the Geneva convention applies to uniformed soldiers laying their weapons down in surrender, not hiding them.
Wake up
In the same unit
My Take
23.08.2005 13:34
Here's another one for ya.....after the first guy was hit and lets say you were the second guy by the tractor.....would you be pulling your tools from the cloth after seeing your buddy shreded to pieces?????? That would be doh#3.
Ok one more then I'll let you figure the other significant clues for yourself. Why would a FARMER....RUN and throw his tools on the ground, run back to his truck, fold his arms, looking around nervously, then run back to the area of the object, then back to the truck then back to the tractor where he was killed? Don't you see the suspicousness of the matter in just his actions alone?
The object that was thrown on the ground to me was quite obviously an RPG. If you look real hard at the RPG"s used by them and then look real close at the object he threw on the ground.....You'll see quite a resemblance!!
You desire to see negative and you see just that. God Bless our Troops! and God Bless George W. Bush for having the B--LS to stand up to the terrorist. Yes unfortunately at times there will be innocent ppl killed in war......but I'll bet you that we'll never even come close to the amount of innocent ppl that the likes of Saddam have killed.
Chris
Chris
e-mail:
format27@hotmail.com
Get all the facts, people
24.08.2005 19:39
To the moron who posted the Geneva Convention.....Read article two, then tell me why we are so nice to these people?
Mike
Some facts
25.08.2005 17:41
The predator observed them fire the mortars and followed them nonstop back out to the field. They were acting casual in an attempt to mislead anyone who showed up after they fired the mortars.
Sgt. Steve Allen
Sgt. Steve Allen
e-mail:
SAllen@mercert.com
Are you serious?
31.08.2005 01:28
Bryan
e-mail:
sabotagelx@yahoo.com
Great footage!
03.09.2005 05:16
And for all of you who think that you actually have any control or say so in what the USA does( directed at the smart ass brit that thinks he knows everything), who is going to stop us ?!
The USA rules the world and you are all allowed to exist because we are so generous.
Have a nice day.
J
allAmerican
03.09.2005 23:10
me
General Patton and 'J'?
08.09.2005 14:40
'J', I feel really sorry for you mate. I can see you sitting on your porch in the deep south, soothing your red neck or something saluting the 'Stars 'n' Stripes ' feeling really proud of America. I reckon I know much more about your country than you do. I ain't no hippie or liberal - I would like the death penalty in the UK, and support almost everything the bloody liberals oppose.
Oh bollocks to you all (not all Americans, I think you know who I mean), YOU ARE NOT THE WORLD AND NEVER WILL BE.
p.s. like I said before, eventually (dunno how long) a country such as China is gonna burst your bubble! You think I hate America, HOW WRONG YOU ARE! I hate people such as you who are still stuck in the past - fancy trying to use the War of Independence as your argument, I'm laughing so much I can hardly type!
HAVE A NICE DAY.
Alex Shah
Unequal standards
09.09.2005 06:51
I do not know if the three individuals in the video were enemy combatants, or farmers, or both, or neither. This video does not show conclusive evidence in any case. However, it is clear that the soldiers in helicopter believed the three to be enemy combatants. Otherwise they would not have fired.
And this is the critical difference between our two cultures. Americans make great efforts to avoid harming civilians while Middle Easterners make great efforts to do just the opposite.
We will prevail
You guys are dumb asses
09.09.2005 11:05
Support our troops
Alex, you're right.....BUT!
13.09.2005 03:10
--------------------------------------------------------
the Americans marched through an open field to their death...."
You should know your geography. You said it right. through and "open field" nothing to hide with, and nothing left to fight back with.
This was one of the decisive battles of the American Civil War (no "civility" about it) and the Confeds, had all but run out of gas. No trenches to hide behind, artillary all but usless, so they had no choice to either surrender or charge. So charge they did and died with ther visions of honor. Unlike the battles of the WW1 Where there were far better stratagies then charging from trenchs.
Jerry
GOOD JOB
13.09.2005 20:03
T
JERRY
14.09.2005 22:56
Alex
Beware of conspiracy theories, but this is a war crime
15.09.2005 20:45
Fact: "He is wounded..." - "Hit him! Hit the truck and him!".
This is a war crime, and we have it on tape.
As usual, energies spent on any other speculation only detract from the case and make your argument vulnerable.
Jason Broadrick
War Crime!!!???
16.09.2005 09:10
nobody likes a soldier until the enemy is at the gates...
Jack
Surrendering... Flag? I don't think so!
18.09.2005 02:35
Please recall Desert Storm when a entire Regiment surrendered to GUESS WHAT?????
Yes Yes Yes........AN APACHE Gunship!!!!!! Think about it!!!! If someone was shooting in your vicinity, and you wanted to not be shot at, What is the first thing that you would do to prevent your death......Run?.....Drop to the floor and take cover?........Or just simply raise your arms to indicate that your aren't a threat. I think that if I just saw my buddy get blown up for no reason at all, I would stand still and raise my arms.....I think that it is pretty universal to understand by this action that you are not a threat and surrender no matter where you are from if you value your life. People are not stupid, just ignorant to the facts or experience.
Jmonta
Are you kidding
23.09.2005 19:41
CB
farmer and a "DELL"
02.10.2005 23:19
Scott Blunden
e-mail:
scottnblunden@hotmail.com
Justified
13.10.2005 09:57
My initial response was they were at the very least overzealous. Now I think they were 100% with their assesment of the situtation, but whether they should have engaged RIGHT THEN is more difficult. That comes down to rules of engagement and so on ...
It took me several viewings to get to this conclusion, which is sort of humbling.
The thing the first guy tosses actually does look like a weapon to me. As he first pulls it from the car, you can see it has some sort of blob 3/4 of the way along and has a strap or fabric tabs at one end as he runs. The blob is consistent with a handle/trigger thing. The guys in the chopper certainly had a higher resolution image. They only ever say 'weapon' and 'gun', so perhaps they were using different cues, especially the REALLY suspicious behaviour before and after to infer that it was a weapon. It did look rather long. Anyone have an example of what it might have been/was?
The guy on the 30mm gun really shows a lot of restraint: whomever it is saying 'smoke 'em' at every opportunity would like to have taken them all out as soon as the guy ran into the field, but they really hang around looking for more cues. There's a gap in the middle when the tractor shows up. I can't make out the time-code.....
If you watch closely, the second run by the the other 'guy in the field, the guy in the feild' shows that another item was dropped, and this second guy is show coming from the same pickup truck: you can see a small, warm item in one of the furrows that wasn't there before, probably 20m from the weapon. The chopper guys don't say anything about this, but they may have missed it.
These guys were leaving a rocket launcher and ammo for someone else or another event at a later time.
Once the decision to engage is taken (again, this is ROE stuff that is voodoo to me), the killing of the first man is basically arbitrary--a clear shot at a bad man. What is interesting is that the guy on the tractor doesn't seek cover but starts rummaging. It looks like he is very hurridly pulling a bag or wrapping from something and throwing it behind him. The bag looks long so you can guess that the item being uncovered is also long. My un-trained, ill-informed, but I think reasonable assesment is that the tractor guy is preparing to return fire, but doesn't seek cover and/or didn't know where the fire was coming from, and so never gets that far.
Killing the next guy under the truck is another ROE thing, but considering the area has at least 2 x rocket/missle launchers, I guess it's safe to assume he couldn't be left to mill around there. Now once he is (probably quite horrifically) wounded as the pilot(?) appears to assess (to me, almost asking for permission to stop!), I really don't understand the justification of the two-birds-with-one-stone destruction of him along with the pickup. It was not needed by that point.
All in all a rather grisly, yet apparently justified, engagement.
Anon
Murder or Justified military action?
19.10.2005 07:39
The video clearly shows to be proper military action taken by the Apache gunship.
Those were not farmers, they were terrorists readying themselves to try take the Apache out.
You lot are real diots!!!!
You guys will make anything look bad if you really want to hey?
MAC
e-mail:
sedimon@yahoo.com
Appache hit
19.10.2005 21:33
Who in their right mind is farming in Iraq at night in the middle of a WAR. And no farmer I ever saw runs one farming tool across a field to throw it in the brush. and someone mentioned the hellicopter hoovering and not appearing to be threatened....
look the chopper is hoovering about 300 yrds down range from the targets. They most likely hear the chopper but prbably cant see it. and what about when the first subject gets smoked, if you will notice the subject by the truck on the left is franticlly pulling an RPG from a gunny sack, ( I mean farming tool).
Look, it is easy for you liberal americans to sit back and monday night quarter back the actions of our troops serving this country thousands of miles away. But lets think about what we say before engaging our mouths. you are playing right into the hands of our enemy by believing all of the propaqganda. I say believe in america First, if not go farming in Iraq..................................................................
Andy
e-mail:
cryptinite@aol.com
Another Vietnam?
22.10.2005 16:52
cyber_drifter
Person at the car is not a woman
26.10.2005 05:19
there're many version of that "hat" I've seen os far.
MNBphoenix
Apache camera misconceptions
28.10.2005 18:59
1)The writer refers to the time of day being mid-morning, though the mission clock shows a time of 16:27 Zulu, which would put the time of day around 6:30 pm, local time. For the time of year this occurred, that would likely have made conditions quite dark. People in Iraq do not conduct business at night during wartime. It's foolish.
2)At the time the crew opens fire, the range finder on the HUD show a distance of 370 meters, placing the chopper at a distance of over 1200 feet from the targets. An Apache in Outof Ground Effect Hover (look this phrase up) is little more than a hiss at that range.
3)Immediately before the crew opens fire, you hear a brief burst from the gun to verify proper function before engagement. The persons on the ground do not react in any way to the gunfire, either taking cover or looking for the source, further indicating the range was too distant to be reasonably discernable. Simply put, they did not know they were being watched and thus their body language would not reflect any attempt at secrecy.
4)Their body language at the begining of the tape, specifically the subject running to the field, indicates they did not want to be seen in possession of the 'object'.
Don't worry, the mistakes the writer makes are honest ones. It cannot be assumed that during a time of war, a subject would be able to make out the sound of a helicopter a quarter-mile away, especially above the noise of a war going on. And three guys meeting in a field under the cover of dark, in a war zone, are up to no good.
Aaron
e-mail:
Evolutionc20@yahoo.com
US are cowards
29.10.2005 18:31
Brian
How about a REAL analysis
31.10.2005 05:18
Iraqi driver pulls up quickly, gets out of vehicle, talks to another iraqi truck driver, then looks around cautiously, proceeds to reach into vehicle, then grab what appears to be an RPG in a cloth cover, runs VERY quickly out into the field, throws it down, then runs quickly back - notice he didn't jog to the field, didn't casually drop it, but was in a serious hurry to discard this in the field. If this wasn't obviously suspicious, you must be crazy.
Next, the OTHER man you will see grabbing something out of the passenger side, then runs to about 10 meters away from the other dropped weapon, and puts another article down - look closely, you can clearly see it.... then also hurries back to the truck.
Next, after about a minute of standing next to the truck, a man runs out ot meet up with the tractor, conveniently located right in between the two dropped objects... The truck driver gets off to walk towards the other two trucks and is killed by the chopper, the other man near the truck is QUICKLY unwrapping the cloth off something (much as he would be with the original weapon dropped) - this was taken off the truck - this clearly suggests he is trying to unwrap the weapon on the truck, but is quickly taken out by the chopper, the remaining target is then killed who was trying to hide under the large truck.
So lets recap - and actually think about this - there were TWO objects in the truck, if these were "irrigation pipes" or any other non weapon, why would they be INSIDE the truck and not in the bed, and if they needed to be inside to be kept clean or safe, why throw them in a field? lol... commen sense anyone? Maybe they were weapons being hidden inside, covered in cloth to not look so obvious.
What it appears they are doing, is dropping 2 weapons, then pulling a tractor up, most likely they were attempting to appear as farmers, setting up an ambush, when a chopper would fly over, they would simply pick up the weapons and open fire....
Also, i keep noticing people acting as if the 3 men saw the chopper and thought nothing of it, "why would they run with weapons in front of a chopper" or at least hide if they were to engage...
One of the primary features of the apache is it's LONG RANGE, usually the enemy never hears or sees the helicopter, they have an advanced visual range and weapons system, those farmers had NO idea they were being watched, you can watch any documentary on the apache to understand this.
Guys, they weren't just watching farmers in a field because they were bored, it was obvious these men were insurgents, please stop with all the "marines are murderers" crap...
Vital
DUH
02.11.2005 19:25
What if iraq decided to liberate you in the same way claiming the same things would you just believe them and give your oil and land freely and welcome the choppers blowing stuff up whenever they please. No trial no jury just smoke em?
Brian
battle of britain
03.11.2005 04:12
cockney
e-mail:
yesi67228016200@aol.com
Battlefield Too?
03.11.2005 06:05
Tobin V.
Dumbass
04.11.2005 02:30
Barney Fyfe
Fuel
04.11.2005 03:21
Blake Link
e-mail:
hobo_scratch@yahoo.com
Homepage:
http://www.murderthegovernment.com
Farmers my ass...
05.11.2005 18:12
angel
You Guys could NOT possibly have been there.
05.11.2005 20:08
Just going off of memory, the Apache hovering "nearby" was actually over a mile away (for those of you who don't know how to convert kilometers into miles). Second of all, "why would they discard a 'spent RPG launcher'?" RPG launchers can be REUSED to those of you who don't know ordnance. Third of all, you NEVER give anybody a second chance, or even a first chance at harming, now or in the future, AMERICAN soldiers, you go after them and kill them, I was in Iraq for over a year as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom II, you DON'T give these guys a second chance, and you DON'T trust them.
If ANYONE would like to further discuss the matter, my email address is
PLEASE STAND BEHIND US, NOT WITH A BASEBALL BALL TO BLUDGEON US FOR DECISIONS WE HAVE TO MAKE IN A SPLIT SECOND AND YOU HAVE ETERNITY TO DISECT, BUT WITH A HANDSHAKE OR A HUG, FOR KEEPING YOU SAFE FROM FUTURE ATTACK.
Josh Crownover
e-mail:
josh.crownover@us.army.mil
Slight change of view
06.11.2005 10:32
Ps. has anyone seen this
just wondering has anyone knows if this is genuine or not?
:P
Brian
Killed for enjoyment
07.11.2005 07:22
They could have called in a ground unit to investigate what was happening there if they were so concerned to find out the truth but instead they decided to open fire for no good reason at all.
Sad to see air crews within the US army are able to get away with it.
Nick
e-mail:
nicktaylor@defence.gov.co.uk
Have you been there?
08.11.2005 02:43
I would offer this as food for thought. I spent a year in Iraq "serving the state". Untill any of you can say you have been there to see for your own eyes what the war is truly about, I suggest you refrain from wishing harm to any soldier. No matter if they are American, British, Or whomever. You have no idea of the level of duplicity that exists among the poor, put-upon citizens of Iraq. I wanted to help when I arrived, and I wished them nothing but death when I left. I have looked them in the eye and saw what was underneath the facade you see in the media. It is not what you may think. By the way, your own countrymen who are serving deserve your respect and admiration. They are some of the finest soldiers, and people I have ever had the pleasure to meet and work with. Go U.K.!
American Soldier
e-mail:
docwright304@yahoo.com
Give me a break
11.11.2005 18:44
War isn't pretty, and its not fair. If you fight fair, you lose. Just ask any soldier that's been to war. Oh, you guys probably don't know any real soldiers or haven't suffered the loss of a loved one who paid the ultimate sacrifice to further the cause of freedom in this world.
To the guy who said "how long until we are in the sights of an Appache Helicopter", I hope its sooner than later. This proliferation of hate and discontent against people fighting for a just cause is pathetic. Loss of human life is terrible, no matter race, creed, religion, sex, age, or social class, nobody can give a good argument against that. I hope you all sleep well tonight in a bed, in a home, in a city/state/country that is protected by brave men and women. Then I hope you all wake up and realize how flawed your open critisism is of the people out there who protect you.
You people are truly disgusting.
T
What flag waving??
15.11.2005 23:21
Im sorry but where was this flag waving of surrender??? And what was this about they were acting like they wern't doing anything wrong. I don't know about you guys but, looking around like a crack dealer for a cop, would bring some suspicion of course then again pulling something (RPG) out of the truck and RUNNING into the middle of a field dropping it and RUN back to the truck whistling like nothing is happening that might bring up some suspicion.
But i did noticed how franticly that guy was trying to uncase that object that they ditch in the middle of the field after the first guy was smoked.
Maybe it was a Bong, hell i don't know, But i wouldn't take any chances
Clutch
error in your analisys
18.11.2005 04:38
craig arsenault
e-mail:
arsenault185@hotmail.com
Alot of pussies posting here.
18.11.2005 05:59
TOD, i don't think you could be any more of a pussy.
Waaaa...we're kicking their ass and your weak minds think we're defeated cause the media only reports doom & gloom.
Oh, and RPGs are reusable. You can load as many as you want until the catch wears down.
You guys make me sick.
Evis
War crime? What war crime?
19.11.2005 01:39
From what I see, and I have seen it a few times now, is that what they were doing was suspicious, and by 'they' I mean the RPG wielding insurgants. If you just plowed a field why would you trample all over it just to drop off some 'Farm Supplies'? you wouldn't, it tdoesn't make sense. If were being shot at why would you grab something out from under the tractor? you wouldn;t, youd put your hands up and lay on the ground. If you were in a store and it was held up, and I was so don't tell me what would really happen because I did it, you would not reach for something, you stand perfectly still, you put your hands where the guy with the gun can see them, and you shut the hell up.
Also, who is to say these guys werent pretargeted? There could have a positive ID and they were followed all the way back to this place. And if that is certain, the fact that they re-identified the target 3 times shows that the U.S. soldier know what they are doing, and I trust thier judgement.
Which leads me to my next point... This is the most powerful country in the world taking on a little rinky-dink crap hole in the middle of nowhere. If we wanted to we could turn that small country into one bug crater, but we don't. And do you know WHY we don't? because we, unlike those heartless bitches, actually give a rats ass about the civilians. If you gave Saddam a nuke he would blow a 7 mile wide crater right on top of New York, or Los Angelos, or (my town) Chicago. I am gald we are showing them what we got, it is a lesson to those other retardo countries that they shouldn't soon forget. All this talk about The "Yanks" is stupid. How is the british going to make fun of America? If I'm not mistaked America fought the British in 2 wars and, if History is true, we kicked your tea-drinking asses all the way back to London. So yes, America can do whatever we want. We have never lost a single war in our entire 225 years of existance (We never lost Vietnam, we got no support from those flower picking hippes and decided to let them fight their own battle) and we are not going to listen to this English Bull Shit because if we wanted to we could blow your Tea-Drinking country off the pages of History.
But I got a bit off topic, let me get back ON topic. As far as I am concerned, those soldiers did their job effectly and with NO loss of civilian life. It was perfectly executed, they verified the target 3 times and dropped those S.O.B.s with shoe shinning percission. I am proud of them, I only wish I could shake thier hands. To all those who like America, come on over have a drink, see the sites, its's a beautiful country. To all those that Hate America, when we are done with Iraq you are next. And if your an American that Hates America you need to get the hell out because all you're doing is slowing us down.
Peace Out!
-Isaac
Isaac
Don't Rush To Judgement
19.11.2005 09:19
Mike
Apache video - An Apache pilot's perspective
26.11.2005 02:36
Having been on several recons in that area, I can tell you that it is very common for the insurgents to hide weapons in haystacks, fields, etc. There were a number of shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) believed being stockpiled in that area with its being a Sunni majority area, and Saddam's hometown. In fact, that is where Saddam was eventually found. There was a blackhawk helicopter shot down over Tikrit with a SAM. I flew to that crash site to cover the rescue efforts. There were no survivors. I also covered a site where a HET (a large transport used to move armored vehicles around) had been attacked with an IED (improvised explosive device) and was burning right there in Tikrit. The insurgency was very active in the vicinity of Tikrit.
Based on what I had seen in that area, I have no doubt that those were weapons. Whether they were caching them for future use or just dropping them temporarily because of a checkpoint or the nearby Apache, I really don't know. The helicopter was only 400m away. The range is displayed in the video after you hear the pilot tell the gunner to use autorange. There's no doubt that they knew the aircraft was there, but they probably thought that they weren't visible since it was dark.
Whoever pointed out that the items being moved were too long to be RPGs must be quite a weapons expert to be able to tell that from a FLIR video. I'm trained to identify those things, and I fly using the FLIR all the time, and I can't tell that. For that matter, they could have been SAMs of the SA-7, 14 or 16 variety or recoilless rifles or who knows what else. One thing I know for sure, if you watch the guy to the left of the tractor after the first guy gets shot, he's frantically unwrapping one of those items being stowed in the field. If you honestly believe that he's desperately trying to get into a pile of guide poles or farm tools or irrigation ducting, you're delusional. He was trying to extract one of the very functional weapons they were trying to move to fire it against the helicopter.
The last thing I would point out is this. When you're on station in an aircraft, you've got a very limited amount of time to resolve the situation, because you've only got so much fuel. You know that if you have to leave before ground troops arrive, whatever is going on, whatever is being moved, whatever you're trying to prevent, it's a lost cause once you lose contact. The bad guys will get away, and they will come after your buddies shortly thereafter with the personnel and equipment that you let slip away.
It is important that we apply force judiciously. There are times for decisive action and there are times to be patient. Draw your own conclusions about this video. I would issue one simple caution. Be careful about making judgments about situations that you really don't understand.
J.T. Naylor
e-mail:
jtnaylor64@comcast.net
1unjustified - 2Justified
27.11.2005 22:36
I assume that the guy on the tractor was plowing his field and may have had nothing to do with any of what is happening around him until he is gunned down, then he is the star of the show. The tractor is not in the vid when they first pull up. He is NOT with them. And since I am just guessing, he was telling them to get their crap out of his field.
The simplest explanition being the best, most times, leaves one to believe that the others, dropping the stuff in the field are up to something other then farming . And in a war, that typ of activity will get you killed.
After the s*** hits the fan you can see the one try to rip open one something. Again, the simplest answer is that he intends to use it. Hmmm, new gloves? I don't think so. Lets see, someone is shooting very large bullets at me, I would;
a. Open a package on the ground to see what is in it?
b. Get out of Dodge?
c. Try to use a weapon to fight back?
It is impossible to say with certainty, just what anyone other then the gunship was up to.
B
Briab
e-mail:
brianmcmc@excite.com
Who would ever do farm works at night????
28.11.2005 01:06
Ken
Fools Gold
28.11.2005 13:41
If that was your brother being blow to bits im sure you would be singing from another hymn sheet just becuase someone is not from your country doesnt not mean you can freely kill them.
The excuse "Our troops are in harm" doesnt work anymore becuase with attitudes like some of the ones posted here, its you's that are putting them in harms way you dont crap on people and expect them to treat you fairly afterwards.
I put it to yous that some of your troops are turning in to terrorists them selfs.....
Steve
e-mail:
StevenMill@army.mod.uk
apache video
30.11.2005 15:32
TOM STAHL
APACHE AND IRAQ
30.11.2005 15:53
DAVE
Oh come on, put the bong down for just a moment and THINK
01.12.2005 14:46
1. The time on military aircraft are frequently displayed in Greenwich Meant Time (GMT or Zulu Time as it is referred to) So, the time this took place could be argued to have been at one of several different points during a 24 hours period.
2. A convoy of American troops had been scheduled to pass this way about an hour or two later. (Verified with independant and anonymous sources myself).
3. Farmers who are about to plow a field don't skip and jump around like they did in anticipation of the long days work ahead.
4. Unless they had some other crime they were committing, they normally do not glance around suspiciously like a bunch of tweekers.
5. You couldn't hit a helo with an RPG from a mile off as the laser ranger shows on the TADS display. Also, there would be no legitimate reason to aim the weapon if you first didn't even know the helo was there watching you and second, or if you did know, it would be wise NOT to point it at the helo as to do so would ensure you got a free ticket to Allah land.
Innocent farmers. yeah right. OK you may go back to smoking your breakfast. peace, out.
AllKnightAllRight
DISGRACE TO OUR COUNTRY
03.12.2005 04:07
JENNIFER
e-mail:
jms32inaz@yahoo.com
Meaningless ?
07.12.2005 04:16
Got a problem with Iraqis shooting RPGs at you? Then get out of Iraq, simple as that. If there's ever going to be democracy there, it's not going to come from the US, it's going to come from the Iraqis themselves.
We've invaded their country, and they're fighting back. So Go, USA! Go home NOW!
Brett
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't forget its not only the US that invaded, it was also many other countries including Australia and the UK.
The coalition invaded so that Hussein couldn't fucking kill his own people and others with RPG's and whatever else he felt like using; gas to kill the poor Kurds.
Of course people will fight back if someone invades, wether or not the invasion was justified. In all wars its the same, the French fought back in WW2 and so did many other factions, and why did they fight back because they belived in their country adn wanted freedom. If the Iraqis would simply lay down their weapons and co-operate their country might be a bit safer for the regular people.
The US can't pullout now they would leave the job only half done, the country would completely collapse and what would all the deaths mean then; nothing at all, not only is the US and the other countries putting their lives at risk for their countries, they are also putting themselves at risk to form a new Iraq.
Go AUSTRALIA!!!!
RAAF ADFG Warrant Officer Bruun
e-mail:
meaty_calcal@hotmail.com
CLUELESS
11.12.2005 11:13
American) don't you. I really hope that if there is another terrorist attack on this Country, you bleeding heart pussies will be the ones to lose family members. Really makes me sick to think that I serve people like you. As far as you European types go, you Damn sure didn't mind us "murdering" NAZI's did you? Oh, that was different wasn't it?
A Soldier
Soldier
BLOODY OATH
12.12.2005 11:12
RAAF ADFG Warrant Officer Bruun
e-mail:
meaty_calcal@hotmail.com
Support
12.12.2005 23:01
Why would you be farming a field at a time late enough at night that the chopper crew has to use their FLIR (Forward Looking Infrared) system?
>>no threat to the helicopter ... send a ground unit to investigate
How do you tell a soldier's family that he was killed because he had to check if three guys standing in a field were hostiles or not?
>>Third of all, you NEVER give anybody a second chance, or even a first chance at harming, now or in the future, AMERICAN soldiers, you go after them and kill them, I was in Iraq for over a year as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom II, you DON'T give these guys a second chance, and you DON'T trust them.
Hell yes!
>>They could have been arrested an(d) the weapons disposed of
Right, because people who will kill themselves with a suicide bomb will go peacefully.
This chopper crew called back to base and requested permission to fire, they didnt just light the farmers up and go... They asked. Remember- we are not fighting a war we are fighting insurgents in a country, in which most of the population is farmers. The geneva convention deters firing on a wounded opponent WHEN HE IS NO LONGER A THREAT!!! They also only recognize a war between two countries, or a civil war within a country. They say nothing about a country fighting a global organization with no geographic or political backing whatsoever. This guy could've whipped a third rocket launcher out form under that truck with him and blasted the apache.
As said earlier, the apache was over a mile away, they would not ahve known they were under fire until the shells were kicking up dirt around them. The first burst was mistargeted, his range wasn't set right to counteract the effect of gravity on the munitions.
If you were surrendering, would you start digging through a bag of something, or would you put your hands in the air? Also- why would you roll back out from under the truck you were hiding under, unless to look for a target?
A man who was in the control tower at the forward base said that the Apache had followed this truck after it launched a mortar attack. Is that not proof enough that these were insurgents? More than enough proof for me to justify their deaths.
To those using the shouts of "America Rules!" to justify their "America Sucks!" campaigns, remember that there is no age limit for this... A bunch of 12 yr olds hyped up on caffeine and HALO 2 are watchign this and commenting too.
I have studied war and the tools it uses for my entire life. I don't claim to truly know war, I've never had someone shoot at me with a gun. I am, however, a professional paintball player, and understand the adrenaline rush that comes with knowing people are out there, just as eager to shoot you as you are them. You usually tend to worry about yourself first, and them later...
Don't forget, we ALL should remember that hindsight is 20/20, we ahve all had hours to watch the movie and decide on a repsonse, these guys had seconds.
For reference- I don't agree with our continued prescence in Iraq, I hate Bush and never like the war in the first place. But I do know that Saddam needed to be ousted, and I support the men and women who are fighting to protect the people of Iraq, and defend everyone's freedom.
Tim
e-mail:
Timlukas@kc.rr.com
What is it like to be you?
13.12.2005 22:43
So, what is it like to be you? Safe, i'll bet.
Brad
e-mail:
Lynn79@aol.com
My opinion
20.12.2005 06:54
say what you will. judge me. i care not for your opinions. the comments i have seen here is the reason why civilians should not have anything to do with the military as they do not understand what really goes on.
rank and file
if that is a crime explain the beheadings
02.01.2006 22:04
John A.
From an Apache Instructor
06.01.2006 23:57
I have given equal analysis to your article and have come to the conclusion that you are a pseudo-intellectual pussy. Oh yeah, the time on the tape you assumed to be “MILITARY TIME” is actually in ZULU and is totally different, Zulu is based on the time there in England (where I believe you live). Surprised you didn’t know that, since you seem to profess this deep understanding about the military. So let me school you real quick, “Military Time” is the local time on a 24 hour clock. “Zulu Time” is GMT on a 24 hour clock. But surely you knew that since you made the assumption it was morning.
There is also a much better camera on “The Big Rig” (Apache) called the PNVS (I will let you look that up as well) and that video is not on your tape, because the Apache’s recorder only records one video feed or the other (not because of a government conspiracy to hide a second video) and that is a sniper rifle being pulled from the left side of the tractor.
So you see that the crew was able to make a better educated analysis of the situation after viewing it live than you were able to do after weeks of second guessing them from the comfort of your own home. Stop analyzing what real men do and go to bed with your wife, safe in the fact that we will be here in Iraq and elsewhere to kill bad people, so you can sit in the comforts of your own home and second guess us.
P.S. Thanks to all the UK troops that served with us here, you have our thanks and respect.
“BLACKJACK 21”
Blackjack 21
2 key observations for both arguments
10.01.2006 23:58
-Against
When the object, be it RPG or otherwise was removed from the truck, it appeared flat, a bit like a plank of wood for a few frames (around 0:29 on the long version) as its angle changed in the process of being removed.
For a projectile to be launched from an object it would need a relatively equal height a width, which the object in question appears not to have.
-For
When the first guy gets "shot", if you can call it that, the tractor guy appears to immediately and hastily remove something from beneath a sheet of some sort (possibly trying to remove and load an RPG) near the "weapon drop area", not typical behaviour of somebody who has just seem their friend blown to pieces. His actions appear to replicate that of someone going into "action", immediately put on alert
There is no shot of anything being removed as he is hit in the process of removing the sheet, but If he were removing an RPG, he would probably appreciate that he'd have no chance of hitting a helicopter from distance with it anyway, and try to take cover.
Carlos
Webmaster is an idiot
17.01.2006 10:46
If you somehow dispute that these men are somehow innocent and not acting guilty then you have got to be an ignorant fool.
SGT Smith
What did happen was.....
22.01.2006 03:22
........
Another thing most of you people don't understand
31.01.2006 04:41
Jay
Maybe a closer look?
08.02.2006 06:57
Zeke Cervantes
e-mail:
OOBboyeklipzeOo@yahoo.com
To all.
10.02.2006 05:43
Big thanks to all our brave men out there, UK, US, there all the same to me...come home safe, I hope to someday become an Apache pilot myself. It is dangerous to most people I know, but I have family in Iraq and I'm tired of sitting around watching CNN bitch about the way a war should be fought. I want to get out there and do something.
Robert
e-mail:
Theseventhcolumn@hotmail.com
Welcome to planet...USA
13.02.2006 05:36
Bring back the cold war at least that kept them occupied!
Al
Hillbillies with big guns
13.02.2006 06:02
Mind you would you expect anything less from a nation that gave the world Pitbull terriers, or a nation that has its children murdering each other in droves at school and complain about it but when the suggestion of hand gun and assault weapon control comes up they scream foul as they have right to bear arms... well following naturally then you have a right to die from these weapons so shut the fuck up. USA what a country, every time I think about it I keep remembering a line from the movie "Stripes" where the troops are egged into action by the question "do you know what it means to be an american? it means our fore fathers were thrown out of every decent country in Europe" so true, just a bunch of inbred bastards with more guns than brains. GO HOME
Al
cry baby cry
18.02.2006 11:54
Douglas
How can you possibly judge?
22.02.2006 20:32
All I can say from this video is nice shooting guys. Every burst eliminated potential threats and are a wise use of our tax dollars. Keep up the good work.
Bill
different interpretations
23.02.2006 16:39
R.M. Dilworth
e-mail:
ronrondohan@netscape.net
Lose-Lose Situation
23.02.2006 20:25
So which is it? Do you want us to go in and try to free the oppressed and give up our resources i.e. food, shelter, and billions of dollars to other countries or do nothing. We go in and were martyrs we don’t go in were hypocrites.
I think most of you need to speak from a more informed position. Do a little reading before you go off speaking about something you know nothing about. Over the years how many lives have we saved? How many countries have we freed? How many billions of dollars have we spent? How many people have we fed? Never mind our deficit, let’s spend billions and billions of dollars not here in the U.S. but across the world why we go broke trying to do the right thing.
Someone said this video is genocide? You want to know genocide? Look up Rwanda or the Nazi’s killing the Jews, Africa and ethnic cleansing. Now don’t get me wrong I was a U.S. soldier and there are a few bad apples but you get those every where. Yes, your government is not perfect. I guarantee there has been something going on in the background that you know nothing about and if you think your government or the people running it are perfect. Then you are fool. However, my point is even though there are a few bad apples among the tree that doesn’t mean we should cut the tree down. The idea here is freedom, to help our fellow brothers and sisters out whatever the cost may be even if it is the few over the many. So as I said don’t get me wrong I don’t think the U.S. is perfect but neither is your country. So before you go throwing stones maybe you need to make sure your house is squared away first, just a suggestion.
As far as the video, again you’re speaking from an un-informed perspective. You have no idea what was going on there. You seen a ten second clip and proclaim to figure out the entire war or situation? I’m glad you are not a defense attorney, a judge, or jury. Or maybe that’s why we have so many innocent people in prison? Because of people that proclaim to figure it out based on ten seconds of information.
Come back to me when you’re more informed and then we can discuss it. Otherwise it would be too much energy on my part to try to explain everything.
Ryan
e-mail:
q_zodd@hotmail.com
To the Hosts – Censorship?
24.02.2006 17:22
Bill
Bill
not everyting is as it seems
01.03.2006 01:54
if you want to affect the minds of people at least have the balls to give the whole story...yes as soon as the person was down he did become a non-hostile .
but have you ever thought(and i mean ever)that they(the apache crew )saw something that gave them the idea that this group of people was doing something that would of harmed more people then them
FACT:most iraqis are blackmailed into attacking us troops..
FACT:unless you are in ground zero .. don't critizice the people that are ..
FACT:the whole world comes crying to the U.S to help them then we get shiited on
AND BY THE WAY ONE MORE FACT FOR YOU MORONS:MOST PEOPLE WHEN THEY DON'T KNOW THAT THEY HAVE BEEN CAUGHT ACT ALL INNOCENT
The crew did what any one of us that have been down there would of done ..so all you internet wanna-be lawyers go join JAG .. THEN YOU CAN TELL US WHAT YOU THINK
antoni
bla @bla.com
08.03.2006 08:10
2nd.. Open your ears...... WHY... WHY... would an iraqi pull the cover off of an object seconds after his pal, got blown up around 15 feet from him? A rational person would hide and not move. This guy jogged around, kept active, and was handling something... AFTER his pal just got blown away. The video is pretty obvious that the human behavior of the iraqis is bizarre and from the video alone, terrorists.
You people can watch a video and screw it up.
jake
IDEALISTS SHOULD LIVE IN IRAQ
09.03.2006 21:15
This video doesn't say much unless you have intelligence to back it up. I assure you, most military strikes will not be disclosed in full detail to civilians. I cannot say if this was a military crime, or an alleged military crime. It may be. However, who has the authority to say under what articles it is a crime? It is obvious to me by watching the video, that the truck is a military cache supply vehicle. The tractor and other truck may, or may not be involved. However, these insurgents are unlike our military. That is why they are called insurgents, so they probably are farmers. That is what an insurgent is. Someone who is not regular military. Some of you sound so ignorant. How do you apply laws of the Geneva Convention (intended for conventional warfare) to situations of unconventional warfare. This war in Iraq is not against the Iraqi government. It is against criminals. Your cries of criminal activity by US military ops is akin to saying a policeman can't gun down a gangster because he has kids and works at the YMCA. What sense does that make? Get some education, talk to a veteran, and look at another perspective. The real cowards are those who enjoy their freedoms without paying the price.
Matt Hills
e-mail:
rescuefiremed@yahoo.com
war
17.03.2006 02:32
paul hughes
e-mail:
lip8@comcast.net
you are mistaken
17.03.2006 03:34
p.s. have a great day and may the glory go to God our creator nad Jesus Crist our savior who gave his life on the cross to absolve sin. :-)
Luke
lying bastards and thier followers
23.03.2006 07:19
john roy demicol
e-mail:
johnroydemicol@yahoo.co.uk
Thank you
24.03.2006 13:20
I lost half of my family in the Sabra and Shatila Massacre in the early 1980's, then we moved to Iraq and I lost the rest.
I live in a western country with 4 kids, all boys and all under 10 years of age. I’m well educated with a good job and more money than most of you put together.
What do you think I’m going to teach them? What do I tell them about their dead family, about the cousins that were torn from there mothers wombs, about the uncle that was tide between two cars and then ripped in two?
It’s obvious to me that most of you do not have a clue about what’s happening around you and in your own countries and do not care about your future generations?
Open my chest and you will find nothing, just darkness, which will swallow your universe and every body in it.
I will fill the hearts and souls of my children with the same poison that pumps through my black heart and I will feed it and nourish it until the day that it’s unleashed, until pay back!!!!!!
Our children will bread you out of existence, and cum all over your daughter’s faces.
Know that there are millions like me all over your countries, towns and neighbourhoods well educated, combat-ready and tough as nails. Buy ting our time and waiting.
For all you hippies, thanks but no thanks, we do not need your help, I’m afraid you, your children and loved ones will be slaughtered like the rest of the sheep.
thank you for making Me, like you made Saddam, Noriega, Pinochet, Hitler, Mousseline, Bin Ladin etc...
Thank the English for dividing my home land; they will inherit the worst punishment of all.
Iraqi / Palestinian
Comments on the last post... AND the video
05.04.2006 13:50
My comment to you... take your holy land and leave us the f*ck alone. $hit was started on 9/11, and we are finishing it. You want to take up arms against us, go ahead, I have no problems pulling the trigger, even if you are a woman.
My comment on the video (before the thread gets hijacked): way to edit the video so the shorter version excludes the incriminating evidence... lol. Three dudes in the dessert, middle of the night, with "equipment"? Blast em, hit it again, then crater the truck. An apache would be no match for the SA-2, and I want to get home to see my family again. FYI, the order to hit came from central command... not the pilot.
Bones
"Thank you?"
05.04.2006 13:56
Concerned
Just who exactly are the bad guys
10.04.2006 04:28
Nigel Allen
e-mail:
nigeland flea@hotmail.com
RE to last
12.04.2006 14:12
Oh, and about the video... if those guys were farmers, then I am the pope. Get a clue Nigel!
DFL
I was there ...
14.04.2006 00:06
In a combat zone, when you are armed you are a valid target. End of Story...
Army of One
I was there ...
14.04.2006 00:08
By the way, it was outside of Al Hayy.
In a combat zone, when you are armed you are a valid target. End of Story...
Army of One
Are you kidding me?
14.04.2006 15:21
Twan
e-mail:
twan@nosac.com
Homepage:
http://www.nosc.com
Try questioning the terorrists sometime!
15.04.2006 00:50
Hippie McWhineypants
Peace
18.04.2006 15:27
It’s me again the “Iraqi /Palestinian”, in fact I am just an Australian/Palestinian who wanted to conduct an experiment and see what the reaction was going to be.
First of all I would like to apologise to all of the readers for the rude letter, it was necessary to get an honest reaction, and it did.
I had typical tough guys telling me that they will do this and that to me and my people, and I had others that were very concerned for me but also frightened of me (not me but the person in the letter).
Guys! Brothers and Sisters! Don’t worry, all of this is normal this is the cycle of life and all the result of basic human lust, greed for money and power, it doesn’t matter who is doing it to whom, because we have all done it to each other all through out history, as long ago as the pharaohs persecuting the Jews , and the Muslims ruling half of Europe and all of the bad things they did to the Europeans and to each other, the Chinese picking on the Japanese and then the Japanese attacking china, the Tootsy being preferred by the Europeans over the Hutu getting all the jobs, the money and degrading the Hutu ( in Rwanda).
The examples are endless, mankind as a whole is doomed to pay the price for the greedy few, and in a few decades it will be China and India’s turn to oppress the west, and life goes on, so don’t worry about changing the world, because you cant.
I was born a Muslim, but when I got older and way before 9/11 happened I decided it wasn’t for me, not just Islam but all religion, just the thought of a God that needs or demands my prayer to feel big and powerful put me off religion completely.
We really need to love and respect each other, I don’t want to sound like a hippie but that’s the only way that man kind is going to make it, please try to see things from the other persons perspective, we live in this so called information age but none of us is getting the right information. Every body has an agenda even I, I want you to see inside me and realise that with all of our differences we all want the same things.
Peace
“Iraqi /Palestinian”
All the way
20.04.2006 12:46
To the US soldiers, you have my support. Semper Fi.
Freedom
Pro-War Comments
20.04.2006 16:59
A lot of pro-war comments have been hidden on this thread, they haven't been deleted, they are still accessible here, this is a anti-war website.
IMC Admin
Thank YOU
26.04.2006 14:29
Thank you. You are 100% correct, and I agree with you absolutely. Your first post scared the crap out of me. There is nothing I want more int his world then peace and happiness. The people of the world need to figure out that we are one SPECIES on one, small planet. We should all value life, hapiness and freedom.
This will never happen, as the tides of war have surged in and out throughout human history. All we can do, is what we beleive is right, and fight for the few things we hold dear. Every life lost is a tragedy, and there can be no justifications. But given the choice, i would prefer the life lost be a terrorist, walking through the desert at night, than my family on a holiday in New York City.
As Robert the Bruce of Scotland said: “We fight not for honor, nor glory, nor for wealth. But only and alone we fight for freedom, which no good man surrenders but with his life.”
TO: All who worry/feel ashamed/ didntl ike the video
THere are two things that don;t belong on the battlefield, media and civilians. Why? The media shows the average, normal human things they cant comprehend. A 19 year old kid facing death every day. When you were 19, you were most likely worried about what to wear and where to go for dinner. THere can be no second guessing in a war, and above all, a civilian can not judge until you've picked up a rifle and stood the post. Casualties are inevitable. Accidents are inevitale. Friendly Fire is inevitable. To think they otherwise is foolish. If you didnt see this video, you would havenever known ithappend, and honestly, would you care? D-day, 1944, 20,000 casualties in a single morning. Was CNN there? No, did the american public see the horror of young men getting blown apart on a beach? No, did they care? Yes, but not on the scale we do today. They knew what they were told, and the country cae out better because of it. The average person cant process the thought of war, or of battle, and they have no business doing so.
TO the host of the site:
How can you honestly expect a fair, balanced view of public opinion when you delete certain posts and modify the "proof" to exclude the incriminating elements? This is why it was a shock GWbush won the election: polled respondents were democrat voting liberals and not an actual representation of the American population. Furthermore, the people who beleive in what we are doing, and the patrotic supporters of the USA and her allies are above commenting, above ranting and above starting a fight with the media. The few liberal "hippies" opposed to everything in this world are as rare as the few muslim extremists, getting all the attention and reflecting poorly on their countrymen.
Bones
All the time
02.05.2006 21:22
US Civilian
Were they combatants?
19.05.2006 03:14
There seems to be nothing special about the area in which the object was dropped, other than it will shortly be visited by a tractor. As the tractor arrives, the individual who dropped the object walks to meet him, and the tractor operator then walks toward the pickup truck, at which time he is engaged by the chain gun on the Apache helicopter. What stands out to me, is the behavior of the individual who is then beside the tractor. As his tractor driving friend is hit by the exploding 30mm rounds, he is frantically trying to unravel something that appears to have been bundled in cloth. Since others have offered innocent explanations for the behavior of these three men, I will also offer my interpretation. The object carried by the first man was a re-loadable launcher type weapon. The men in the pickup were in possession of this weapon, but did not have ammunition for it. The tractor driver was delivering additional ammunition for this weapon. When the firing began, the second man hit was frantically trying to un-bundle the rounds for the weapon, in hopes that he could load it and return fire. As the video shows, he didnt have that much time.
As for the killing of the wounded man, I see no justification for it. He was obviously seriously injured from the initial burst that hit the tractor driver. He was then hit again after he rolled out from under the truck, and once more after the smoke cleared from that burst.
thank you for allowing me to express my opinion.
Bill miller
Trip to Paradise
21.05.2006 17:48
It gives me warm fuzzy feelings knowing that that they are being helped to fulfill their fondest wishes...
to eat ice cream and repeatedly violate 70 "virgin" ghosts all day long for the rest of eternity.
Ukaymedia Blowsgoats
kill or be killed
26.05.2006 04:48
joe
e-mail:
mightyjoe911@yahoo.com
kill or be killed
26.05.2006 04:49
joe
e-mail:
mightyjoe911@yahoo.com
Censorship for all
26.05.2006 21:50
Nick
e-mail:
druszka717@yahoo.com
My comment was changed !!!
29.05.2006 15:38
-----------------------------------------------------------
I WAS THERE
17.05.2005 04:21
You can all complain and speculate as much as you want to, but I was there. Upon clean up, U.S. Soldiers found not one, not two, but THREE shoulder fired weapons designed to take down aircraft. The one that was laid in the field, PLUS two more in the back of one of the trucks. If you pay attention to the tape, you will notice that the man closest to the "long object in the field" tried desperately to pull the item out of the bag as the rounds are impacting. Are you telling me that he chose that moment in time to use his "farm tools"? I'm gonna say not.
------------------------------------------------------------
That is not what I wrote when I submitted the post !!!
I was there for the cleanup and did see a couple of RPG's, not ground to air missles. Someone decided to "spice up" my post with some creative writing of there own. I have a feeling this one will not make it to the world without being edited either. In any case, they had weapons and were not farming as some say.
James
Some concerns
30.05.2006 18:50
"From the body language of the individuals on the ground, it is clear that they themselves do not feel they are doing anything which should be of concern to a US helicopter hovering nearby."
First, I disagree in general that their body language is comfortable. The man sprints to drop of the object in the field, and the way they continually run and stop and turn around and stop and run and turn around is very unusual.
second, I don't think they could see the helicopter. My guess is that the thermal vision was magnified significantly. Here's another video that might help to bolster that Idea.
The way they killed the wounded man from under the truck was both disgusting and unprofessional.
Caleb
e-mail:
cbelle@artic.edu
No meanin of life for US
30.05.2006 19:28
Many americans are so foolish that they still support this president. The Bush Shit says dat we need 2 free dat country and tells loads of stories from movies of hollywood and da next hour da americans r followin him. when da fact is out dat he lied 4 dis war still they support him coz he freed da ppl. well thank u so much Mr. Bush if dis freedom i wud like da country witout freedom.
And i wud like 2 remind u incase u forgot dat Iraq had better lifestyle then 2day. but due 2 da US sanctions dey had 2 live in hell.
Americans should visit arab countries and c da lifestyle coz there is a value of morality ( which da US lost and want others also 2 lose it,by makin porn and distributin around da world) in Arab countries and da willingness 2 guard it.
Freedom fighter
America the Dieing
31.05.2006 00:35
Shane Gibson
e-mail:
drutchlin@hotmail.com
Stupified Militant America
31.05.2006 01:01
Shane Gibson
e-mail:
drutchlin@hotmail.com
Your Id10t's
21.06.2006 02:46
It's Me
conclusions without facts
04.07.2006 23:06
mark jenkins
e-mail:
markjenkins7@msn.com
you only see and hear what you want to see and hear
06.07.2006 16:08
Is that what these guys did? No, they continued on, doing whatever they were doing. We see one guy running a bit to get to the 'tractor' and whatever might have been placed on it. Was it an RPG? Maybe. We don't have video feed of him placing it on the tractor. Was he running to grab his irrigation piping? Maybe, we just can't tell what it was. What we can tell is that when the first guy gets hit, the other guy left of the tractor grabs something but doesn't get to do anything with it before he gets hit. Any sensible man would have just run for his life, but no, he goes to pick up something hidden by the tractor, possibly a weapon, and for that he gets hit. From the pilots point of view, he was an enemy.
Think about these items...Someone was astute enough to notice the heat signature from the tractor. That means it was running, and probably making a lot of noise. So the fella on the far left probably couldn't hear the first few shots from the apache...you know the ones that occured about three seconds into the video...like I mentioned above.
So a buddy of his, who did hear the shots, runs to him and tells him they're being shot at, and the guy on the far left who didn't hear the shots because he was near the tractor decides to grab his handy dandy RPG that he sat by the tractor. Unfortunately for him, the second fella gets hit right in front of his eyes as he's walking away. Now, the far left fella's really motivated to grab that RPG and use it , but he also gets shot.
Then there's the guy under the truck who's smart, and hides behind both the large metal block of the truck engine and also uses the heat from it to conceal himself, but he peeks out, and gets hit.
None of us know for how long the apache was trailing the truck before the pilots decided to waste them. We're only shown a bit of a video feed, and from that you think you have the right to call a warcrime? Once again, you've shown that you are great at jumping to conclusions. This video does not show us the hours of reconnaissance preceding the final 1 minute of video. This video does not show to what lengths terrorists will go to commit crimes. Nobody saw Rodney King fighting with the LAPD before they finally decided to beat him to submission. That's about the time the camera came out and started rolling. Of course, I'm sure you jumped to conclusions and say that every American Policeman is bad, don't you?
Does anyone know what Jane's Ships and Aircraft book is? It's a book that contains the specs to all the aircraft and ships of the world. Do you know what kind of ships Iran has? The very last war vessel in Iran's inventory are Ski Doo waverunners with a second person holding an RPG. So it's not hard to imagine a terrorist carrying an RPG on his tractor to take out a 'target of opportunity', say a US helo on a routine flight....
So, what do we see on this video? I see three good terrorists (Theyre' 'good' because they're dead now). You see three innocent farmers and a brutal military. I can only point out the facts, it's you who decides to ignore them. You'll only see and hear what you want to hear. Why don't you just go live in North Korea or Somalia, if you don't like America? You probably think those are down right wonderful places, don't ya? Well, it's a free country, so you're free to express your opinion. You're also free to leave.
matthew
what really happened
11.07.2006 09:21
You must be blind if you can't see the guy pull the rpg out of the bag and start to aim it at the chopper. After, I might add he just witness his compodre turned to dust. Oh, yea he thought he'd do some farming after witnessing that.. Your real bright!!!
I guess this is one way to get Inbound Links. Just not a very smart way......
Notice I didnt help..(dot com)
NOLA
e-mail:
nolaimports@hotmail.com
Homepage:
http://www.nolaimports.com/
Wrong time stated
15.07.2006 12:02
This is not true. The time in the FLIR camera appears to say 19:25 military time.
This would make it 7:25PM
Why would farmers be out there at night time?
Ron
site "ja's"
24.07.2006 20:56
repsol rob
all this from someone who was never there
08.08.2006 02:58
Curt
Curt Diaddigo
e-mail:
muxbus1553@yahoo.com
Stupid Assumptions
23.08.2006 13:35
Let me guess.. these guys were out uncovering scrap metal with a metal detector in the middle of th enight in a road travele by US Soldiers... No, wait... they were making a fort!
ENEMY = DEAD.
Infra red
Hypocracy for All
03.09.2006 05:10
Could any of you explain to me why YOUR military went to the Falkland Islands? How about conquering most of the known world in the name of the British empire. Who appeased Hitler by giving up lands of OTHER countries. Who didnt help Poland defend against the Nazis and the Soviets.
Despite what you think, YOU are not the pinnicle of morality in world politics. So in other words:
SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU BITCHY TREEHUGGING LIMEY HYPOCRITS
Thank you
Druszka
e-mail:
druszka717@yahoo.com
Apache video
16.09.2006 22:27
Kirk Pelkey
Great Video
25.10.2006 03:48
I can't wait till we have to pull out with our tails between our legs, and having them start killing you dumbass leftist here in the U.S. that read this garbage called Indymedia. I just read a story buried way in the back by the biggest leftist paper in the nation, the New York Times. The story was about how the Border Patrol just found another set of Prayer rugs, and a Koran on the California Mexico border, the third such find this year. Why do you think they are here, to pick fruit? That’s right, there herrrrrrreeee!
Allons!
11th cav pilot
Response to Ian
28.10.2006 17:55
You know,I hate you simple motherfuckers.You didn't say that shit when the Nazi's were looking to turn your pathetic little island into a storage lot.You're pathetic and most Americans don't want your fucking "help"anyway.The only thing that you limey bastards feel motivated to fight over is a fucking soccer game.Or better yet,maybe the British government could give away free beer and maybe then you worthless fucks will get some liquid courage and take a stand for something.I hope to God you pussies get out of Iraq and take the snvieling Italians and the rest of our "help" with you.Maybe we'll be able to smoke these assholes and be done with it
Ed
e-mail:
heavynumbertaco@yahoo.com
A correct to your "facts"
01.12.2006 17:15
Curt
e-mail:
follower64@gmail.com
To curt, (mis)quoting wikipedia as 'facts'
01.12.2006 17:26
Furthermore, quoting wikipedia as a reliable source for facts doesn't really cut it anyway.
So, your post will probably be hidden as inaccurate and abusive. Same goes for most of the comments on here actually.
ben
Homepage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AH-64_Apache
Night vision footage
05.12.2006 04:16
Dave Richards
You still don't get it do you.
08.12.2006 02:42
Chance
e-mail:
chance@thepooldoctors.biz
Homepage:
http://www.thepooldoctors.biz
Insurgent activity
08.12.2006 14:02
I am not commenting on the legalities of what took place but on your interpretation of the video:
The item that was first removed from the vehicle was most likely to be a weapon as they wanted to remove any evidence from the vehicle. The plough could then bury it. The Apache mission would have been the end or final part of surveillance following an incident and not just on a jolly.
The second item removed by the second guy looked about a foot and a half long, possibly a RPG warhead; this was put down away from the first item.
You need to see all footage and be involved in the operation before making wild assumptions and speculation as to the individuals activity.
I take it that you are a wannabe lawyer? - More effort required.
Jimmy
2nd Guy apachi
20.12.2006 08:57
or something from the back of the tractor.
Michael
Wise up
04.01.2007 21:29
Idiot.
your momma
Waw-waw
02.02.2007 01:16
so done
quick note
13.02.2007 04:32
fdgjhrgyj
Let's bomb the Brits!
13.02.2007 23:13
I wouldn't waste my energy.
As to Ron. Ron: whether the corpses in this video ever were farmers is irrelevant. Farmers work at night. Farming is a 24/7 business.
As is war and murder.
Stevie
Stealth
14.03.2007 15:29
BorderRaven
e-mail:
Borderraven@aol.com
comments
01.04.2007 03:06
gaetan hudon
e-mail:
bigazie@sympatico.ca
Kill em' all!!
23.04.2007 03:38
Oh and stop your whining !!!!!!
Black Sheep 0882
e-mail:
billy.armistead@us.army.mil
COOL
24.04.2007 16:46
B_AVALANCHE2002
The whole story?
05.06.2007 13:08
Mr. Nolan
IRD Pacing
16.06.2007 21:16
the simpleist device bieng a piece of pipe (isnt that whats in the video?) with explosive substance inthe middle and an assortment of shrapnel on the outside.
Thats as far into it as i'm prepared to go. but you get the picture
Anthony
US Army Warrant Officer
22.06.2007 19:42
Good shoot..... that in the long run kept these "innocent farmers" from killing others.
Welcome to Iraq.
CW4 DDG
CW4 DDG
wow, is everyone really that stupid.
10.07.2007 21:52
Second, did everyone else see how they were looking around when they first met? yeah, i scope out the place every time me and my farmer friends meet too. NOT!! and next he takes the "shovels" or "pipes" or whatever and sprints across a field and ditches them. O.K., so lets pretend I buy that they were shovels, why the heck does he feel the need to run at top speed to go put them down?
third, thanks to someone earlier who pointed this out, we know that the camera is a thermographic one that sees heat. When is the last time a shovel gave off the same amount of heat as a person???? i think it was... the last time it fired a rocket.
lets pretend again. They were these 2 farmers. when one pulled up, the other went to say hi. Farmer #1 says, "hey, i brought shovels. i bet you can't put them over there and run back in 5 seconds." farmer #2 says, "I'm not doing that, i'll look retarded." But then he looks around to see if anyone is looking and says, "all right i'll take that bet. you're gonna loose sucka!" He sprints over, drops the shovels and runs back. "Ha!! I did it!! You owe me some mo-BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG!!!!!!!!
you guys are right. poor poor farmers.
Brett
e-mail:
diehl5@missouristate.edu
I've seen the whole video
04.10.2007 18:28
Two of these guys fired an RPG on coalition forces, cowardly jump into the pick-up truck with the used RPG barrel. The Apache is asked to not engage until they see where the vehicle is going (in order to maybe get a few of their fellow insurgents). The moral of the story is don't play with RPG's in the war zone.
Nice try on identifying the weapon as "Farming tools" for your own agenda. I'm sure you won't post this, as the truth makes you look manipulative and dishonest in your portrayal of this incident.
This is one of the most highly viewed combat videos out there. Don't you think this would be on '60 Minutes' if there was any question as to whether the individuals were insurgents or not.
Get a life.
ev
More about the situation
19.10.2007 22:21
Also, what farmer scurries over to an edge of a CROP field and quickly tosses out a pipe (or sticks or what the hell) INTO the field. My grandfather was a farmer andn I know he would just toss garbage crap like that onto the SIDE of the field or in a ditch.
Nuclear Mike
WTF?
11.01.2008 06:49
What is your one sided and complete bullshit of truth come from? Did you fail at boy scouts, wait that is too tough, I mean girl scouts?
patryck
alternate scenario
08.02.2008 11:45
If we want to talk about war crimes, lets roll back a few hunderd years. I recall several unarmed Americans Massacred in cold blood, in a town called Boston.....
Yankee
American trash.
14.07.2008 07:23
I already know what kind of people you are. The following is the type of person who wants things done their way, even though they have no knowledge to base their judgments on. These so called men and women are the types who give excuses of why they didn’t join up and lend a helping hand. Some of the excuses are: “It isn’t for me” “I would never make it past basic training” “I’m not athletic” “I would miss my family too much” “I have too good of a job here to leave it” “I’m having marital problems right now” “I have to finish school first” “I have to get married first” “I have kids” “I don’t believe in war”
You people make many great Americans sick. It’s sad to see so many weak-minded people out there. I wish the worst for you in life. How many times have you even gone to a VA hospital and helped out? Probably never, right? Have you ever asked a soldier about something good that happened over there? No, you haven’t and probably never will. All you ask is a stupid, “Did you kill anyone?” Or you’ll say something like, “Thanks for going to Iraq,” knowing damn well you don’t mean it. By no means do I think this is everyone. But those of us that know, can tell who you are a mile away. You are the person who says “Thank you” because it’s socially acceptable with the people that are around at the time. I know that there are some good folks out there that care, but I have no respect for the people out there that have chosen to simply do nothing and still complain.
Most of the cry babies out there talk politics with such distinction, as if they’ve been there and done it, and now they have something to teach the people that will listen. If you are such bad asses and don’t want to belong to the military for a few years, ok, I’ll say I understand for a second. Let’s move on. If the military really “Isn’t for you” fine, but what’s your excuse about letting our Congress walk all over our rights here at home? I would think that if you are just too big of a man and just to smart to join the military, you would at least exercise your rights as American citizens. Think about this long and hard. Has your patriotic, bad ass American self even read the Constitution? Answer that honestly, think about it, and then slap yourself. When you really think about what us as citizens have done, you should feel like walking off of a cliff. Our government is out of control, and are allowing things to be done at home that are unconstitutional. You tell me what’s worse.
1. An American government who takes advantage of stupid, unmotivated, ignorant citizens.
2. Citizens who let the people in the government pervert the constitution and walk all over civil liberties.
Say farewell to America, and give a big welcome to the new Americanized East Germany. The people who own this country are the American citizens. For some reason, America has forgotten this. A little bit of legislation and a juiced up economy for a few years is all it took. That cocktail equals lazy, fat, stupid, unmotivated Americans that are just fine with having no future. Wait, I shouldn’t say no future. What I should say, is that America has a future that is like how many other countries are right now. You know, those countries that you wouldn’t visit even if someone paid you to.
On a final note, I would like to send out a nice friendly thought. As the USA continues to decline into something it isn’t supposed to be, I would like you all to know that I will become very happy. The reason I will become happy, is because I’ll know that you deserve every bit of whatever you get. When and if, you ever read the Constitution, you’ll be amazed at what it says about people that pervert the Constitution, and what Americans should do when this happens. It’s very clear and in black and white. Maybe a great, old school dictator is what you people need in order to stand up and take control of your country.
One more thing you should try to remember. Many Americans define and maybe associate being free with how many riches they want to attain, or in some cases, those riches and luxuries that they feel that you are entitled to. So if you are one of these people, I would like to take the time and tell you that you are wrong. You aren’t entitled to anything. Here is an easy way to explain.
Luxuries
Food = N/A
Shelter = N/A
Money = N/A
Electricity=N/A
Living Free
Constitution= It’s all there, take care of it or it’s like nobody ever wrote it.
Andrew
e-mail:
soldier.justice@yahoo.com
What are YOU looking at?
02.08.2008 23:14
Go see your eye doctor, and let's get real.
They were insurgents.
They had a weapon.
Stormy Morris
more mounting evidence of war crimes!!!!!
06.04.2010 21:48
Keep up the good work and lets hope one day justice prevails...
Jeff Hilliard
e-mail:
jeffhilliard_2@hotmail.com
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