The Apache Killing Video

Cowardly Bastards

19.01.2004 14:11

An 'enemy combatant' is anyone who dares defy US military supremacy. In other words, defence of your country is a crime punishable by life in Camp Delta. However, for the true definition of a war-crime, watch the video, for which no-one will be held to account. It should be General Sir Michael Jackson, Chief of Staff, who is moonwalking into the International Criminal Court, for the illegal occupation of a Sovereign Nation and crimes against humanity.

Scapegoat

Vicious murdering bastards

19.01.2004 15:59

Is it just my imagination, or does the second bloke seem to be waving what is presumably a white bit of cloth (or anything as a surrender) when they blow him away?

I would assume, as this bit of footage is available, that this is one of the less controversial killings.

I'm not surprised the Iraqis don't want them there.

Afinkawan

USA, Defender of Freedom and Democracy

27.01.2004 09:26

The US brought Saddam to power, and turned a blind eye to all his brutality. The US (and Britain) actually vetoed condemnation of Saddam in the UN back when he nerve-gassed 5,000 Kurds at Halabja, and tried (unsuccessfully) to pin the blame for it on Iran. But when he was no longer obeying orders like a good boy, they suddenly started calling him "The Butcher of Baghdad", "The Brutal Dictator Who Must Be Stopped", etc.

Now that Gaddafi is back in line, obeying orders, all his brutality and all his crimes will be forgotten about, and he'll start being an "ally in the war on terror", just like the vicious bastard dictator Karimov who runs Uzbekistan. Karimov likes to boil his critics alive. No problem for the Good Ol' USA though, so long as he obeys orders and keeps the pipeline running trouble-free. Business as usual for Bush and the rest of the men who run many profitable defense and oil interests.

A fine legacy for the son of Bush Senior, and the grandson of Prescott Bush, who built the Bush family fortune by trading with the Nazis before and during WWII. So hearing about how the US "saved Britain from fascism" because they're all such nice guys makes me want to projectile vomit. The American people did not want to enter the war, and had to be dragged in by the govt at a very late stage when the US saw the economic opportunity of dominating Europe for the next several decades.

Read more about the fine work the USA is doing in Iraq, "fighting terrorism" from the air:

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Ian

Stunning US ignorance

28.01.2004 10:39

Melinda writes:

"Did we forget that these people came into our country and attacked us killing thousands on 9/11! We are only defending our country and its people."

Don't be ridiculous. The US was attacked by Saudis, not Iraqis. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and there's not a shred of evidence linking Iraq to it. You're not defending anyone, you're attacking.

"If you do not like how things are done here in the US go away there are plenty of other countries that you could move to. Go live there and be happy but quit being antiamerican.

LOL! You do realise you're posting to the Indymedia UK website, right? And you do realise that the United Kingdom is not in the United States, right? Crack open an atlas sometime: see, there it is, other side of the ocean. We learn something new every day, eh. :)

Shame on you, for your willful ignorance. And your president is no better: he thinks Wales is somewhere in North America, the pitiful simp.

TOD writes:
"How do you know with 100% certainty he is not a threat?"

And how do you know with 100% certainty that he is a threat? Innocent until proven guilty, so long as the accused is a white American. Guilty until proven innocent, if he's not.

"I never made a statement that even slightly suggests that 'if you don't side with the US, you are with Saddam'"

Go back and read what you wrote, sonny: "Or...could it be that we have some of the forces of Iraq posting on here to try and help their cause???"

Ian

God Help The USA

28.01.2004 22:04

'Cause prayer is all we've got left. We're getting our asses kicked out there. Just like Vietnam!

TOD

Certainly.

28.01.2004 22:15

Here you go:

Ian

Bundles of tools and pipes don't glow on infra red

29.01.2004 01:28

First of all- anybody who disputes that what is being dropped is a weapon is, well, ignorant.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. That the object is a bundle of long handled farm tools being taken over to where the farmers are working with the tractor.
2. That the object is a bundle of thin poles to be driven into the ground ahead of the tractor to give the tractor driver a visible guide to keep the furrows straight.
3. As suggested by a reader, that the object may be part of the plastic pipe irrigation system used in dry climate agriculture.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Keep in mind, that we're viewing this through FLIR- forward looking infra-red. That "bundle of tools" is glowing awfully hot for a bunch of tools.

Why move a spent RPG? So that the spot you fired from isn't easily discovered, so you can use it again.

Is the Apache being directly threatened? Negatory. The article goes on about how the people on the ground see no reason not to be alarmed by an Apache. Look at the range, at the bottom of the screen. They didn't know the Apache is there. Many of our helicopters have some special rotor that keeps the quiet. The technology was first seen on Blackhawks that were converted for SpecOps use- Night Stalkers, I believe they were redubbed. Can't hear it like you'd hear a normal chopper.

The Apache not taking evasive maneuvers- why bother if they don't know you're there.

And that's my take.

Dave

Judge, Jury and Executioner

30.01.2004 09:41

Yes, suspected "terrorists" get the Geneva Convention. That's what they were: suspects, same as the men and boys you have locked up without charge and no rights to a lawyer in Guantanamo.

You think you can call anyone you like a "terrorist", so you can do whatever the fuck you please to them? Why do you think most people outside of the US see George Bush as the biggest threat to world peace?

You think you're any safer from REAL terrorism now that you've caught Saddam, who had nothing at all to do with 9/11? Don't be so bloody gullible.

Mike

Shooting the wounded

31.01.2004 05:11

Let's assume for a moment that they were enemy soldiers.

One enemy soldier has been shot, and falls to the ground. He rolls out from under the truck, one of the pilots says, "He's wounded." The other pilot says, "Hit him," and the Apache opens fire again, killing him.

Should the injured soldier be considered an open opportunity for some target practise simply because he's making no attempt to crawl away? He could be shot through the spine, helpless, completely paralyzed, but since he's conscious it's OK to put a couple more rounds in him

I remember seeing grainy black & whites of Waffen SS shooting wounded allied soldiers during WWII. They reasoned that every dead allied soldier was one less potential threat. The Nuremberg trials saw the matter differently.

The US pilot who shot the wounded Iraqi man should be tried for a war crime: we have a film of the crime being committed.

The Geneva Convention says in Article 12:

"Members of the armed forces and other persons mentioned in the following Article, who are at sea and who are wounded, sick or shipwrecked, shall be respected and protected in all circumstances...

Such persons shall be treated humanely and cared for by the Parties to the conflict in whose power they may be, without any adverse distinction founded on sex, race, nationality, religion, political opinions, or any other similar criteria. Any attempts upon their lives, or violence to their persons, shall be strictly prohibited; in particular, they shall not be murdered or exterminated, subjected to torture or to biological experiments; they shall not wilfully be left without medical assistance and care, nor shall conditions exposing them to contagion or infection be created. "

and: "The wounded, sick and shipwrecked shall be collected and cared for."

and: "Reprisals against the wounded, sick and shipwrecked persons, the personnel, the vessels or the equipment protected by the Convention are prohibited."

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/q_genev2.htm

Tom

The wounded guy...

31.01.2004 05:14

Okay. I don't think they were militants. That's not what I'm getting at though. Let's just assume for a second that they are. The Apache killed the first two guys before aiming at the one under the truck. Eventually, he rolled out, and they confirmed that he was wounded. If he was wounded, and most likely weaponless or too incapacitated to use a weapon, did they honestly have any need to shoot him again? Is someone who just crawled out from the smoldering ruins of a truck, and obviously barely capable of moving, a threat to a helicopter that could be a great distance away?

Alessandro Sojack

US Marines love to shoot the wounded

31.01.2004 09:00

Here's a video of US Marines shooting a wounded man, laughing and cheering:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1/aztlan_thief_host_your_own_video_iraqiwar.wmv

"It was a good feeling... hell yes, that was awesome, let's do it again."

Bill Parkin

Not a war crime folks

31.01.2004 09:41

"They didn't give a goddamn about being sure, they just applied the logic of "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out". "

Once again how do you know this?????? How do you not know that there was other intelegence about this? And as for the Genevia Convention read this.....

"(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions: (a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms openly; (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war."

and I stress "(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms openly". Humm guess they wernt following those rules were they...

Or how about this one.... "(6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly"

If these rules are not followed then that person is NOT to be considered a Prisoner of War...

If you don't wear a uniform or display your weapons during an engagement, whether offensive or defensive, then you are engaging in perfidious acts and lose the protection of the Geneva conventions. Obviously these men were transporting Weapons to be used against the Coalition.

As for the wounded one.... we dont know how badly he was hit, what were they to do? Turn around so he could cawl over to the truck and pick up a RPG and fire back? Sure getting ground troops in would have been ideal but depending on the location that may have not been possible.

Remeber we are talking about the same people who durring the war have regulary set up camp in schools and civilian homes.

Sure we went in to remove WMD's but its not like Sadam was a saint..... by any means he has been an invader and a terrorist for way to long and now he is no longer in power or able to SLAUGHTER his own people.

Trust me I too wish the US would keep their noses out of other countrys business and try not to police the world.... then again I guess you would be where you are right now if it wasnt for Americas help. For every war we are in we are sending aid to 100 more places..

SOD

US loves to shoot the wounded huh?

31.01.2004 09:43

Bill as for that video looks like a great media edit job to get the desired effect they want. I wonder what the kid was actually talking about when he made that comment. Never believe the Media edit job

SOD

Don't repeat Britain's mistakes

31.01.2004 09:43

Yeah, Britain had a horrible empire once. And yeah, Britain started all the trouble in Israel, and most of the rest of the Middle East, if you look back at the history of the place.

But we can't use that as an excuse for repeating the same shit all over again. We can use our power to start putting things right for a change, which is the opposite of what's happening in Iraq right now. I think we should get the hell out of Iraq, and Saudi, and most of the rest of the world, and quit trying to build another empire. I also think we should start leaning on Israel for a change, they've had a free ride from us for way too long.

And I've gotta say, it's absolutely right that we use way too much goddamn oil. You can't walk most places here in LA, (or most other cities I go to for my job) you've got to drive like 2 doors down, cause there's no sidewalk. I see Moms on my street driving their kids 50 yards to the bus stop on the corner. It's mental.

As for the video, well. I agree that we don't know enough about what happened before. They could have a weapon under that tarp or whatever it is. But our guys shouldn't have shot that guy lying helpless on the ground.

Jerry

US bottom of the league in aid

31.01.2004 12:00

"For every war we are in we are sending aid to 100 more places."

Actually the US is the stingiest of all the developed countries, both by percentage of GDP and by dollars per person. Here's a table showing aid by percentage of GDP in 2000:

http://www.unicef.org/pon00/haltin.htm

The new proposed aid budget will rise slightly to 0.13 percent of GDP by 2006: up a little from 0.10, but still by far the lowest aid by percentage, and one of the lowest in dollars per person:

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m1093/4_45/89871068/p1/article.jhtml

And of course, the largest single recipient of that aid money is poor, starving Israel.

Mick

War crime

31.01.2004 12:12

There's no way to tell from that distance whether or not they fulfilled those conditions, especially the one about wearing insignia. That's the problem with war from the air: you can never really be sure what you're shooting at. So the argument about identifying them by those criteria is invalid.

"...guess you would be where you are right now if it wasnt for Americas help."

Too fucking right we wouldn't. We're in far more danger from terrorism now than any other European country, thanks to our Dear Leader going along with whatever Bush says, and giving a knee-jerk yes vote to every idiotic invasion that Bush proposes. Now that Bush is finally admitting there was never any evidence for WMDs, I guess Tony will have to go along with him and admit it too.

Then there are the punitive tariffs that the US has just imposed on our steel, tobacco and other British products, and the fact they won't let any British companies bid for the big reconstruction contracts in Iraq. The US still treats us like shit, same as they always have.

Ian

Yes, right...

31.01.2004 15:02

Jerry, you are absolutely right. We do use a lot of oil. So do something about it. You are a part of the solution or part of the problem and I don't think any one of us here that benefits from any oil based product should sit and point fingers. Go get an engineering degree or develope new means of transportation..and when you can do it cheaply and convice the entire population of the world that walking is better than driving, we'll see a lot less fighting over natural resources.

And Britian's past raping of the world isn't an excuse for any country to do the same. My point is that those high and mighty Englishmen need to look at their own actions as well before criticizing the U.S. There's a deeper agenda and resentment than just the Iraq war...as you can see by Ian's comment about the U.S. treating the UK like shit....geez, it sounds like Ian is going to take his ball and go home. Comments like that are born from the bitter defeat of our revolution.

As far as the aid statistic goes...be sure you capture the amount of aid done by Americans with their own time and money, not just what is recorded by government programs.

Oh, one last thing Jerry, don't forget why we've had to open a can of whoopass on certain individuals in this world. You're outlook would be quite different if you were planting your wife or child in the ground after having them pulled out of the rubble of the Twin Towers.

Citizen Kane

Tech fixes

31.01.2004 15:51

"Go get an engineering degree or develope new means of transportation..and when you can do it cheaply and convice the entire population of the world that walking is better than driving, we'll see a lot less fighting over natural resources. "

There are lots of engineers already. And there are already lots of alternatives to driving everywhere, all the fucking time. It's not the entire world that needs convincing, it's a tiny minority: us. We're 4% of the world's population, using 25% of its oil. The magical tech fix is not going to happen. We need to change the way we live, now, today. Our oil addiction is going to kill us.

Jeff

Gunship footage

31.01.2004 16:45

They should have left the military vehicles they were in and gotten out of there uniforms, and they would stll be alive.

Matthew Vitcaks

Comments are out of context

31.01.2004 20:03

How paradoxical that Brits are shocked, shocked at the brutality of American forces. This is from a country that raped and pilaged most of the world for most of the last couple of centuries. Funny how abhorrent something is when someone else is doing it. Perhaps more a sign of Britain's current impotence.

Aren't we jumping to conclusions here by seeing a limited piece of footage? You're complaining about the American forces acting as judge and jury when you are doing exactly the same thing, albeit with a chip on your shoulder about the US. Do you know what kind of intelligence the US army pilots had on these men? Do you know whether these men were tracked from the scene of a brutal attack by insurgents earlier that same day in which a number of Iraqi civilians were ruthlessly killed?

Clearly this piece of video is disturbing and quite sobering. War is a horrible, ugly thing. We all have our heads up our asses if we don't recognize that this type of thing goes on all around the world every single day of our lives. And some army somewhere is doing our dirty work for us while we sit around on our arses and watch chat shows whilst scarfing down Tesco take-away. More than 18,000 people will die today because of lack of access to fresh drinking water. So go drive your Range Rover down to the pub for another pint, mates.

Christopher Boffoli
mail e-mail: thx11388@georgia.co.jp

Obvious ignorence

02.02.2004 08:47

Yall are crystal clear in your ivory towers, my British friends. Too much socialism has clouded your judgement. Your brothers are fighting this war too, remember? If you had paid close attention to what really took place you would have noticed the second launcher being removed from the tractor by the weary idiot who chose to make the fatal move, i.e., left side of tractor. I am in law enforcement in the States and everything I saw gave me enough PC, (probable cause, for you less informed), to stop a hostile action clearly percievable by any reasonalbe individual. Given the obvious fact that you decide to see the facts in your own distorted view does not change those facts. The parties invloved in this clip are clearly up to no good and the evidence speaks for itself. View the clip again, the full version. PAY ATTENTION! Now,...... take a spot of tea and a few crimpets and smoke it. Appearently the pot yall been smokin ain't doin yall no good!!!
Your's truely, Bloody Yank!

ski
mail e-mail: n\a

Unresolved issues

02.02.2004 10:58

That the content of the video clip is horrific, I would hope, is above question; whether the footage provides evidence of an American war-crime is another matter entirely.

We are not in full control of the facts of the incident. Several key issues are unresolved in as far as determining the status of the Iraqis as combatants or civilians - what was the object dropped in the field, why was it dropped there, what part did the tractor driver play in this incident? I do not believe that the video footage, such as it is, equips us with enough information to conclusively answer these questions.

In my personal opinion, for that is all I can bring to this debate, is that the American military exercised excessive use of force in this incident. Given that the men posed no apparent imminent threat, ground troops should have been dispatched to investigate under the protection of the helicopter crew. I can find no justification for the shooting of a wounded and helpess individual, combatant or otherwise.

Does anyone know if the US military are seeking to clarify the circumstances of the incident?

David

some incorrect facts about this article

03.02.2004 02:22

Hi, I've read several comments about this footage and I'd like to clear a couple of things up.

1) This article says the video was not taken at night. This is incorrect, it was. The time indicator on the HUD reads 16:25 which would be about 4:25PM. However, the clock is set to zulu time (GMT), so the actual time is 02:25, or 2:25AM. The apache depicted was blacked out (no lights on) but could see with its FLIR (forward looking infrared), so the men depicted never actually saw the aircraft.

As for the items being farming tools, this is not true either. The weapon they're dropping in the field is a shoulder fired heat seeking missile. There were serveral more found in the vehicle along with RPG's. This is the same weapon that took down a Chinook a few months ago and killed 31 soldiers.

After the first man was shot, the second is seen clearly ripping the tarp off some concealed tubular object, you can see it if you look close in the video. What is more plausible, some farmer who just saw his friend get blown to pieces frantically diving for his... piece of irrigation pipe... or a terrorist frantically trying to get a weapon, even though his chances of hitting the apache with a correct firing angle without seeing it at the range it was at is pretty low, I still would have probably done the same thing if I were him. However if I was a farmer, I'd run the hell away, jump down, hide, try not to make myself a target.

There appears to be a lot of crazed frothing at the mouth going on here, when practically everyone is ignorant of the facts.

michael

Another parallel to the American Revolution

03.02.2004 04:21

I notice another parallel to the American Revolution: the intense and violent language and bitter polarisation that it seems to induce in everyone who talks or writes about it.

The writings of the day-- the letters to the editor, the personal correspondence, the newspaper articles, the broadsheets-- carried the same urgency, vicious ad-hominen attacks, opinions-without-facts, awful hysterical rantings, and principled outrage that we see on both sides of this war today. OK, well, perhaps the language was cleaner back then ;-) And they didn't have the Internet.

The United States of America is now an Empire, and it is attempting to reclaim control of one of its wayward economic colonies. Full stop. All that other crap about WMD's (isn't a B-52 a WMD??), human rights, oil, Israel, 9/11, etc, is just noise.

I don't care whether the Apache crew was justified in blasting those guys to bits. I don't care what those guys were doing in their truck/tractor/whatever. All that matters is that the U.S. Army *did* kill those guys, with extreme (I also don't care whether it was "excessive") force, on the soil of somebody else's country, and that's worse than wrong-- it's stupid.

The real "direct hit" in this attack was scored by Ellsberg, in his post above.

Remember that the American Revolution marked the peak of the British Empire-- the beginning of its subsequent long, slow decline. Americans always seem to be in a hurry to do things quickly; perhaps the Neocons don't realise that they're rushing the whole "decline" process as well.

"Be careful who you step on as you climb up the ladder, you may meet them again on the way down"

publius

Times etc.

03.02.2004 09:10

16:25 is 4:25PM. Baghdad is 3 hours ahead of GMT, so it's 7:25PM there.

I'd like to see the evidence that makes you so certain those were "shoulder fired heat seeking missile. There were serveral more found in the vehicle along with RPG's."

Got a URL, or can you cite some publicly available documents? Or are we just supposed to trust the Pentagon PR man, again?

Jeff

time zone

03.02.2004 13:13

You're absolutely correct, I apologize for this mistake.

Although, it would still be dark in Iraq at 7:25.

michael

Not murder

03.02.2004 15:36

Alright... i havent read all the comments thus far but ive read a lot of facts about this including testimony from the pilots. This was the same area another helicoptor was shot down a few days proir to the shooting. That helicoptor was carrying wounded people and was not a hostile target. THAT is murder.
The pilot and gunner did not want to use a 30mm to destroy the targets, but that is the smallest weapon the apache carries. Watch the long version, read some facts, dont just buy into what people are trying to convince you of.

Ricky

Gunship Video

03.02.2004 23:22

In regards to the article, although compelling... has a technical flaw the debases a point of the argument. RPG launcher tubes are resuable, unlike the US versions where you fire it and then drop the tube. RPG launchers are reloadable, just like a rifle. It could be put back in the car and used later, it wouldn't needed to be discarded just like an infantry man doesn't throw away his rifle once the magazine is empty. Well written article though.

Tim

No...

04.02.2004 19:32

first off, it is a favorite tactic of the iraqi rebels to drop mortars and RPG's in fields ahead of time, and later on someone else will pick it up and use it.
Secodn off, terrorists DO NOT get the geneva convention, because they arent part of a fighting force of a nation. They are criminals, not combatants. Terrorist anyway. Men fighting in Iraq right now however do fall under the convention. And either way i guarantee that the thir man was going to die anyway. Better to kill him quick then let him suffer

akula

Terrorists

04.02.2004 19:44

Suspected terrorists, you mean.

Or is anybody you feel like killing a "terrorist"? Your govt thinks that Reclaim the Streets, and Carnival Against Capitalism, people dancing in the street and blocking traffic, are "terrorists":

http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress01/freeh051001.htm

Calling people fighting off a foreign invader "terrorists" follows on easily from this. By your definition, the US colonial rebels in 1776 were "terrorists".

Barry

A reminder

04.02.2004 20:05

Here's a reminder of why our troops are in Iraq:

http://homepage.mac.com/webmasterkai/kaicurry/gwbush/

George W. Bush

More

04.02.2004 21:02

Great job! They should have shot more!

Satisfied Individual

You Are a Bunch of Liberial Communist

05.02.2004 10:23

Sound like you all are a bunch of bleading heart liberials. I am just sorry the US Navy did not take care this business. You are pathetic bunch of communist. Assume all you want, you where not there.

U S Navy EOD

What about...?

05.02.2004 18:27

"""
1. That the object is a bundle of long handled farm tools being taken over to where the farmers are working with the tractor.
2. That the object is a bundle of thin poles to be driven into the ground ahead of the tractor to give the tractor driver a visible guide to keep the furrows straight.
3. As suggested by a reader, that the object may be part of the plastic pipe irrigation system used in dry climate agriculture. """

If that's just farming equipment, why would that guy immediately run for it and pull it out of a bag when the helicopter opened fire? What good would a farm tool do against a helicopter?

He was pulling out a weapon and you damn well know it.

Me myself and i

Facts unclear

05.02.2004 20:00

I've watched this clip a couple of times now. The last poster said "If that's just farming equipment, why would that guy immediately run for it and pull it out of a bag when the helicopter opened fire?"

OK I've gone back and watched it again, and I don't see that happening. I see two guys walking back to the tractor (not all the way to the thing thrown into the field). Then the Apache opens fire again, but this time he's in range, and the bullets are hitting. First guys is gone. Second guy is fumbling around for something on the tractor, or maybe next to the tractor, we don't know what, we can't see it. Hell, it could have just been a rifle, if he didn't know it was an Apache there.

When I think about the kind of mistakes cops make when they're standing right 10 feet away from a suspect, like mistaking a wooden chair leg for a gun, it stands to reason it's going to be even tougher from a helicopter. He says he's positive it's a weapon, well yeah maybe he believes it, but that don't make it so.

So it's going to take a lot more than just this short video to convince me either way. But nobody seems to be able to quote anything that sheds any more light on it, just lots of "well I read somewhere" kind of stuff.

Bill Z

You're kidding, right?

07.02.2004 03:14

The way I see it, if the people over in IRAQ knew that if they so much as even looked like they were going to take out an American, that they would be blown to bits, we would not have the 'sniper' problem that we have over there... but noooooo, we cannot make it widly known that we will blow your freakin head off if you mess with us... we have to be 'nice'.... Even if it were merely target practice, i have no problem with what happened in this video. Our troops are in harms way overthere and deserve every break they can get. If they have to make their own 'breaks' by setting a little prescedent, that 's fine with me. Besides, how in the hell do you guys know that this clip isn't manufactured? So what if it was on ABC... maybe they know someone who manufacutres such, or maybe they just saw it and deemed it as a way to push the whole liberal/UN BS thing and ran with it....

Kate

Great way to fight terrorism

07.02.2004 08:46

By terrorizing them. Are you listening to what you're saying? You have no problem with using someone, innocent or guilty, for target practice? You think we should have more Vietnam massacres? You think that brings honor to the USA? You think it will fight terrorism, or help us win out there?

Look what happened the last time we tried your "get tough" strategy:

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE

And we still got our asses kicked out in the end.

Our troops are "in harms way" because our lying idiot president and all his oil buddies put them there. Bring them home, and they'll be out of harm's way.

Joe

Fighting terrorism

07.02.2004 09:00

"The assessment I received [from British Intelligence] was that the greatest terrorist threat to Western interests came from al-Qaeda and related groups, and that this threat would be heightened by military action against Iraq"
- Prime Minister Tony Blair, in a written reply to Parliament, 15th October 2003

"Should Saddam conclude that a U.S.-led attack could no longer be deterred, he probably would become much less constrained in adopting terrorist actions...Saddam might decide that the extreme step of assisting Islamist terrorists in conducting a attack against the United States would be his last chance to exact vengeance by taking a large number of victims with him."
- CIA report to the Senate Intelligence Committee , 7th October 2002

"It is our view that an invasion of Iraq would ensure overflowing recruitment centres for terrorists into the indefinite future. Far from eliminating the threat it would enhance it exponentially,"
- A statement by CIA veterans, February 2003

"War in Iraq has probably inflamed radical passions among Muslims and thus increased al-Qaeda's recruiting power and morale and, at least marginally, its operational capability"
- International Institute for Strategic Studies, Annual Report 2003-2004

The White House could not give a flying fuck about terrorism, or keeping anyone but themselves out of harm's way. Bush and Cheney are happy to risk the lives of brave American soldiers, if that'll help them grab up all the treasure they can carry. Wise up.

Mick

Boo Hoo !!!!!!!

08.02.2004 16:45

You whining losers make me sick! For all you anti-American jealous limp dick inferior assholes just remember this quote! "YOU FUCK WITH THE EAGLE YOU GET THE CLAW!" This goes for any of you anti-American losers who cry for vengence against America.

Marty

Come on...

10.02.2004 01:12

Proof that it was a good kill:

-They are in the middle of a field at night
-They are obviously suspicious
-He looks around before grabbing the tube-like object out of the car
-They don't take cover when being fired upon
-The one by the tractor is frantically trying to remove something before being killed
-He runs when placing the tube-like object in the field and throws it down quickly.

Robert
mail e-mail: ViperSniper79@hotmail.com

Proof vs. suspicion

10.02.2004 06:40

"They are in the middle of a field at night"
It's 7:30 PM. You're obviously not a farmer: we don't work 9 to 5.

"They are obviously suspicious"
And so they should be. Lots of robberies and killings going on there at the moment, and lots of civilians getting killed by an occupying army for no reason:

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

"He looks around before grabbing the tube-like object out of the car"
Yeah, so maybe it's a rifle. Or maybe it's something he stole. My friend at IBM told me every time they tried to lay down wide-area networks in Turkey outside of the two main cities, the copper cabling got dug up and stolen, because it was the most valuable thing around for a days drive. And these people are a lot poorer than the Turks. It could be almost anything. You can't tell from the night-vision video what that object was, and neither could the pilot. Any evidence recovered from after the killing? Anyone bother to go fetch the suspicious object in the field? I've searched, and can't find a damn thing. Stands to reason that the Pentagon are too embarrassed to say what it really was.

"They don't take cover when being fired upon"
Again, the Apache is far enough away not to be heard. All they're going to hear at first is bullets hitting soft, plowed-up ground in the dark. It would have taken a minute for them to work out what was going on. When they start hitting the cars, that's when they start running around. But if it was an RPG they dropped in the field, why didn't they run back to grab it? Simple: it wasn't an RPG, it probably wasn't even a weapon.

"The one by the tractor is frantically trying to remove something before being killed"
First you say it's suspicious that they don't take cover when fired upon, and now you say it's suspicious that they are getting frantic when fired upon. So which is it?

He's worked out they're being fired on by then. You think he had a spare RPG hidden in his little tractor? No, he's got a rifle or a handgun in there. He's going to return fire. His country's in the middle of a fucking civil war, and being occupied by a trigger-happy foreign army, and his neighbors are all robbing each other to stay alive. Wouldn't you have a gun in your car? What would YOU do? I'd be packing whatever weapon I could buy, borrow or steal.

"He runs when placing the tube-like object in the field and throws it down quickly. "
You're bouncing back & forth on the timeline now. Yeah, maybe it's a weapon. Or maybe not. Maybe he's stolen something. You have no idea what that is. But you think it was a "good kill", from a spoonful of evidence that something bad MIGHT have been up. They also shot a wounded man on the ground, who was no threat to the Apache at all. All in a days work for the Forces of Freedom.

Mark

re: suspiscion vs proof

10.02.2004 16:09

>> First you say it's suspicious that they don't take cover when fired upon, and now you say it's suspicious that they are getting frantic when fired upon. So which is it?

I believe he was saying that it is supiscious that they don't frantically take cover when fired upon, rather than frantically and conspiciously trying to free something wrapped in a large cloth/tarp.

>> It's 7:30 PM. You're obviously not a farmer: we don't work 9 to 5.
I've worked many a days on my grandfather's ranch, and I didnt work at 7:30. you can't hardly see anything when it gets dark.

>> He's worked out they're being fired on by then. You think he had a spare RPG hidden in his little tractor? No, he's got a rifle or a handgun in there. He's going to return fire. His country's in the middle of a fucking civil war, and being occupied by a trigger-happy foreign army, and his neighbors are all robbing each other to stay alive. Wouldn't you have a gun in your car? What would YOU do? I'd be packing whatever weapon I could buy, borrow or steal.

After seeing what the 30mm minigun did to my friend, I would not try to do anything to the thing responsible unless I had heavy artillery.

and the most solvent point is that every time an aviator fires a weapon (fixed wing or rotary wing aviator) on his vehicle it is investigated. i'm positive that ground forces sifted through the area. i'm also sure that because we have not heard anything new about this that it was found to be justified. many media outlets (foreign to US especially) would love to run an expose like this if it were really unjustified. I am sure that more than one news organization (besides ABC) has looked deep into the incident just hoping for that.

You never hear anything when we do things right, after all.

Unless you're trying to make the argument that the US Military "covered up" this incident after it had already gotten mainstream national TV coverage. if you believe that, I have some alien cadavers to sell you

regards,
michael

michael

Media silence

10.02.2004 16:41

"and the most solvent point is that every time an aviator fires a weapon (fixed wing or rotary wing aviator) on his vehicle it is investigated. i'm positive that ground forces sifted through the area.i'm also sure that because we have not heard anything new about this that it was found to be justified. "

Your faith in military justice is touching. I've got some alien cadavers to sell you, too. If there was an investigation, why was there no evidence put forward following the report on ABC? I can't find a single thing. Please prove me wrong.

"many media outlets (foreign to US especially) would love to run an expose like this if it were really unjustified. I am sure that more than one news organization (besides ABC) has looked deep into the incident just hoping for that.
You never hear anything when we do things right, after all. "

We don't always hear anything when we do things wrong, either. I could hand you a list a mile long of seriously bad shit our govt has done that hardly ever gets talked about in the mainstream press. Google for "tiger force" or "northwoods memo", to name two examples. The massacres in East Timor and Halabja barely got reported in the mainstream press while they were happening, either in the US or abroad. How often do you hear in the mainstream press about the oddly high numbers of US servicement flown home with mysterious pneumonia-like symptoms? And so on. Please don't rely on the corporate press to bring you all the news, because their track record truly sucks on this, and it's got a lot worse since 9/11.

Mark

Pentagon lies through its teeth

10.02.2004 21:23

That comment above really got me: "i'm also sure that because we have not heard anything new about this that it was found to be justified."

I'm a conservative Republican, and I'm so sick of the lies the Pentagon keeps telling about this war. Check out this site:

http://www.ngwrc.org/

It's run by Steve Robinson, a highly decorated Special Forces veteran who served with distinction all over the world:

http://www.ngwrc.org/robinson.htm

More Pentagon lies exposed, on Soldiers For The Truth:

http://www.sftt.org/

The Eagle

Comments about video

10.02.2004 23:06

Couple things not correct in this article.
The item that was dropped in the field is indeed longer than a RPG-7 launcher, but it is not longer than a LOADED RDG launcher. If you look close right when it is thrown in the field you can make out the conical head of the shaped charge projectile.

A for the time I am not 100% sure but night imaging thermal equipment does not work during the day. If this was during the day you should have hot spots from the sunlight and there are none.

As for being farmers, well if you watch the entire video their actions are not typical of a farmer going to work in a field. One of the men has bloused his pants farmers don't do that.

Basically if you are caught with a RPG-7 launcher, the only thing you are trying to hunt is Americans. Can't be to upset when your intended prey fights back

MKeen

Who are you people?

10.02.2004 23:20

Ok. This is coming from a Marine. You are all a bunch of sad little girls who whine all day and act all nasty. tod, we're not losing. the only thing being lost here is your credibility, and your manhood. come out from behind that computer, little man, and tell my friends in iraq that they are losing

bisson

Can't see it

11.02.2004 09:10

I can't see any conical head, not even when I slow the video down and pause it. I just see something long, and when I slow it down it's too blurry to make anything out.

We need more evidence, people.

Nick

Absolute Morons!

12.02.2004 06:05

I find the author of this article and most of the posts absolutly moronic!!!!

1st an foremost you people bash the U.S.A. for its decision to remove a truely evil man from power. So what of the MILLIONS people he slaughtered? Is that OK? The thousands of Kurds he gased WOMEN AND CHILDREN!!! His regime MURDERED, RAPED, and TORTURED people regularly.

So you see 3 suspicious characters getting killed and you freak out. What? Are the Pilots suppose to go up to them and interrogate them? No you fools this is a war situation. If you are a civilian in a wartime situation do not do anything suspicious or it could mean your life. This is what happens in wars. People die. Some innocent some not. Deal with it.

Do you fools even take into consideration that the USA is the caretaker of this entire pathetic planet we live on? We send more aid to other countries than anyone else. We bail out other countries financialy more than anyone else. So the hypocrisy is almost comical. Countries will take our money and our aid but when we have to defend ourselves from evil and powers that support terrorism we get slammed. Wake up and look at the real world.

Look at stupid morons in France. We bail them out of 2 takeovers this century and yet they still bash us! Most of Europe and the world would be speaking German right now if it wasn't for the USA. We put forth and lost MILLIONS of our own people to help and save others from being overrun. What thanks do we get??? NONE.

What thanks do we get for removing a murdering lunatic in Iraq? NONE. What thanks do we get for removing a evil regime (taliban) NONE. What thanks do we get from driving a lunatic like Osama underground? NONE.

WAKE UP PEOPLE! We can no longer be passive in this day and age. We have fanatical religious freaks that will stop at nothing. Their only intent is to cause mayhem and chaos. If someone does not curb this tide of terrorism then no one no where on this Earth will be safe from this wicked people.

Wicked Shall Be Punished

Wicked Shall be Your Business Partners

12.02.2004 11:57

"1st an foremost you people bash the U.S.A. for its decision to remove a truely evil man from power. So what of the MILLIONS people he slaughtered? Is that OK? The thousands of Kurds he gased WOMEN AND CHILDREN!!! His regime MURDERED, RAPED, and TORTURED people regularly."

You murdering hypocrites were happy to put Saddam into power, do business with him, sell him WMD, and veto UN action against him when he gassed the Kurds. Now you expect to us to believe that you were against him all along. But unlike you, we have long memories.

"So you see 3 suspicious characters getting killed and you freak out. What? Are the Pilots suppose to go up to them and interrogate them?"

Yes, once there's no longer a threat. The wounded man on the ground was no threat to anyone. He should have been arrested, not shot.

"Do you fools even take into consideration that the USA is the caretaker of this entire pathetic planet we live on?"

4% of the population, eats up 25% of the energy, and rising. Pulled out of the Kyoto Protocol. Refuses to sign the Landmine Treaty. Refuses to sign the Bio-weapons treaty. Some fucking caretaker.

"We send more aid to other countries than anyone else. We bail out other countries financialy more than anyone else. "

Wrong. The US is the stingiest of all the developed countries, both by percentage of GDP and by dollars per person. Here's a table showing aid by percentage of GDP in 2000:

http://www.unicef.org/pon00/haltin.htm

Bush's new proposed aid budget will rise slightly to 0.13 percent of GDP by 2006: up a little from 0.10, but still by far the lowest aid by percentage, and one of the lowest in dollars per person:

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m1093/4_45/89871068/p1/article.jhtml

And of course, the largest single recipient of that aid money is poor, starving Israel. Americans think they are the most generous in the world, because their President and their press say so. But the figures prove otherwise.

"Most of Europe and the world would be speaking German right now if it wasn't for the USA."

Mm, maybe. And maybe you would be speaking French right now if it weren't for Britain.

"We put forth and lost MILLIONS of our own people to help and save others from being overrun. What thanks do we get??? NONE. "

Wrong again. The USA lost about 300,000 troops in WW2, about the same as the UK, and only slightly higher than France. Check your figures:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/ww2stats.htm

You've had your thanks for WWII. Does that mean we should continue to be eternally grateful and supportive when you do something illegal and wrong? If a man saves my kid from drowning, I should be grateful. Should I be so grateful that I go and help him shoot the gangster up the road he was doing business with last week? No.
Just like with Saddam, the USA was happily doing business with Hitler, until it was clear that much better opportunities lay in fighting him. Bush's family got rich from trading with the Nazis before and during the war. We owe Bush not a single thank you, because his family were part of the problem.

"What thanks do we get for removing a murdering lunatic in Iraq? NONE. What thanks do we get for removing a evil regime (taliban) NONE. What thanks do we get from driving a lunatic like Osama underground? NONE."

Maybe we'd be more grateful if you evil fuckers hadn't put all of them in power and funded them in the first place. The US was happily doing business with all of the regimes you mentioned, then suddenly changed its mind when the business deals fell through. Then we're expected to support you bombing the countries that suffered under your former dictator buddies. Fuck you.

"WAKE UP PEOPLE! We can no longer be passive in this day and age. We have fanatical religious freaks that will stop at nothing. Their only intent is to cause mayhem and chaos. If someone does not curb this tide of terrorism then no one no where on this Earth will be safe from this wicked people. "

I agree 100% with that. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz are fanatical religious freaks who will stop at nothing. Their intent is to cause mayhem and chaos, and make a big pile of cash too. If someone does not curb this tide of terrorism then no-one and nowhere on this Earth will be safe from these wicked people.

Mick

Apache Killing Video

13.02.2004 01:02

I have seen the entire uncut, unedited footage of the FLIR camera from the AH-64 Apache gunship. This seems pretty basic to me, if they saw the chopper, why did they not raise their hands and give up. This is war and people die in war, they are a people who understand this all too well. They never raised their hands to give up. What would possess a man, any man covered by a helicopter gunship to reach into a tractor and remove a cover from something after his buddy was just killed ? The only thing I can think of is he is arming himself, clearly he was not giving up. This makes him stupid or a want to be martyr. In either case, see ya. The other guy hides under the truck, he could just as easily came out with his hands up, he was clearly hiding. What was he hiding with? I guess we will never know. I too would not wait to find out. By the way, the chopper pilot knew a few days earlier of a downed chopper at or near the same area downed by ground fire. I would not have waited either, and if you want to live in a war torn country like this one, you would not either.

Your conclusions about the length of the possible RPG'S or stingers they may have had as irrigation pipe or tools is all wrong. The Soviet com-bloc shoulder fired "stinger" equivelant is just about that size. So is the french made copy.

Ed

Shooting the wounded

13.02.2004 10:28

The man who'd just been shot with the 30mm was lying on the ground, probably with his guts spilling out into the field. That might make putting his hands up a little tricky.

But hey, if he wants to live in a war-torn country, then it must be his fault that the pilot shot him.

Ian

USA Bashers

13.02.2004 12:03

Just remember that if it weren’t for the USA, you would not be able to post your point of view in this forum. Why? Because you’d be censored. Hell, you Brits can’t even handle the IRA. The only bad thing about this clip, is that it’s not in color.

Sniper666

Pickup driver is a female

16.02.2004 18:00

I've finally watched the long version of the tape, 15 times. Here is what I've noticed :
The pickup truck driver is a woman. You can clearly see her hair as she walks several times back and forth from the pickup truck to the field. She takes a long object from the pickup and runs off into the field and drops it, to the left of where the tractor parks later. Look at the way she runs back and forth several times compared to the way the truck driver does, its clear by the way she runs that she is a female. Then the truck driver also runs into the field and drops a second smaller object to the right of where the tractor will park. Both then go back to the pickup truck and wait around talking while waiting for the tractor to arrive. The male truck driver then walks back and forth between the pickup and the location where he dropped the second object. Then the tractor arrives. The female then runs over to the tractor and she and the tractor driver kiss. The female goes around the tractor while the tractor driver gets out and walks towards the trucks. The female pulls something out of the tractor and begins doing something with it as the tractor driver is being shot. The first kill is witnessed by the truck driver who backs out of the frame and hides behind his truck. The female, unaware of what has just occured, probably due to the noise of the running tractor, continues what she was doing. She is then also shot as she seems to be unrolling something, a hose maybe. Then the truck driver is shot at, then is shot at again as he seems to be crawling, after being probably wounded.
To conclude : two trucks on a road waiting for a tractor to arrive in a field, two objects are dropped off in the field either side of where the tractor will park, something is taken from the tractor. The part of the field just covered by the tractor is clearly visible on the infrared camera proving the tractor was really engaged in agriculral work at the time.

Ever heard of the saying that when the only tool you own is a hammer, all objects look like nails ?

Gilles
mail e-mail: toto@hotmail.com

From Someone Who Is Here!

16.02.2004 20:26

It amazes me to see a bunch of people talking about about something they know absolutly nothing about. The Bird isnt hovering right over the Iraqis, the view is zoomed in. All modern gunnery has this feature in the system sights.. Before you go judging what is going on over here bring your butt over and live it for awhile...if you got the guts.

Spc M. Lafferty
mail e-mail: bullrack31@yahoo.com

KILLING VIDEO

18.02.2004 08:49

I think that the pilot was right. It was a search and destory mission not a search and take prisoners. As long as there is a breath of life in him he can call for anti air fire. Better him then or troops.

James

Wake up assholes

18.02.2004 10:35

I work here in Baghdad, inside a U.S. base. These are the same mother-fuckers that zorch missiles and mortars over the wire late at night and early in the morning. These are not random events, we have incoming almost every night and people do get hurt. I was so happy to see this video. Everyone outside the wire knows not to be out walking around in the fields because of these attacks. . .if you're out late you're up to no good.

I'd rather see these assholes blown to shit than a buddy. Before you comment, come on over and stay a week, you'll pull your head out of your ass quick.

Bill

Um...one comment no one has mentioned

18.02.2004 15:25

Everyone from Britian is writing their articles in the English language. Why is that? Shouldn't you be writing in German? Oh sorry that's right the U.S. Military stopped the Nazi's from wiping England off the face of the map. You may continue in your native language courtesy of 407,316 dead American soldiers.

BC

Damn Good Shooting

20.02.2004 04:31

RPG Launchers are not fire and drop weapons. They can be reloaded and present a continuing threat. . They have no legitimate self defense use, unlike the AK-47s that one finds all over Iraq. They didn't run because they didn't hear the helicopter. The thermal sight can zoom very close and Apache helicopters are very quiet. Now, I understand that many of you think it's great when a coalition soldier is killed by RPG, or helicopter is brought down, but most rational people dont.

They want to deal with illegal weapons, they need to understand the consequences. I know that dealing with the consequences of your actions is a concept totally foreign to you, but some people actually believe in it.

Cheers.

MilitaryIndustrialComplex

Yanks can't spell Britain, let alone find it on a map

20.02.2004 20:12

Yes, all of us here in "Britian" should be so grateful for the US entering WWII years after it started, once you saw the opportunity to dominate Europe for decades by doing so, that we should let you do the whatever the fuck you like, to whomever you like, wherever you like. It's out of a sense of earnest gratitude that we should let you go right on dropping Depleted Uranium shells and cluster bombs, killing prisoners of war, shooting up carloads of women and kids at checkpoints, etc.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Guess we should also be really grateful for the family of your "President" making their fortune from major investments in Nazi businesses and Auschwitz slave labour, then finally cashing in their shares in 1951:

http://www.clamormagazine.org/features/issue14.3_feature.html

As for the concept of "dealing with the consequences of our actions", it's plain enough that it's you yanks who are dealing with the consequences of your actions, and expecting us to fell sorry for you. You lied about WMD, so you could go in and bomb the shit out of this particular dictatorship because you no longer felt you could do business with the evil dictator you installed and armed not long ago. Now we're supposed to feel a wave of sympathy for you and your "buddies", because you're being shot at in your heavily armed Apaches by resistance fighters on the ground. Well boo-fuckin-hoo. Fuck off home, and then you won't be threatened by the big scary Iraqis anymore.

Cheers,

Martin

Some more Damn Good Shooting

20.02.2004 20:17

547 officially dead so far, actual numbers rather higher.

http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx

Ian

If you think that's bad!

21.02.2004 21:02

If you think that's bad you should have seen the lady that jumped from the 84th floor of the WTC. The rules of engagment have changed. They can pull they're bullshit on they're own people all they want but Tyrants and Dictators, Terrorists and Extremists take notice! The next time you hear an airplane up above it might just be a Spectre Gunship targeting your house. Holyshit I just realized this is some kinda fucking U.K. anti-war protest website, sorry I know killing everyone is the wrong answer but like a great American named John Rambo once said "When in doubt, kill everyone in the room." What kind of response did you expect from a country where everyone owns 12.5 assault rifles? You thought we'd turn the other cheek? WRONG! We're going to methodically kill everyone involved and their children, and their friends one after the other day after day for the next 100 years. Understand. The Terminator is out there. It can't be reasoned with, it can't be bargained with...it doesn't feel pity or remorse or fear...and it absolutely will not stop. Ever. Until you are dead.....Welcome to the machine!

homer
mail e-mail: homer@hotmail.com

The Truth

22.02.2004 18:58

Most of you whining liberals are absolutely clueless. Of course we are going to protect our own interests. That's the way the world works. "Better them than us", that's my motto, as it applies to people being killed in war.

It boils down to the simplest of socioeconomics. We are the "Haves" and the entire rest of the world are the "Have-nots", albeit to varying degrees of neglect. It is human nature for those who don't have it to want it. This creates jealousy. Many people in the rest of the world are jealous of the prosperity that Americans are born into. This is our era, just like the 19th century was the era of the British empire. Deal with it (or say hello to our friend, the Apache).

The difference between the state of the world now and when any other empire was on top is this: we are relatively humane in our dominance. We take great care not to harm innocents, even to the point of endagering our own people. Nobody else in history has gone to such lengths.

After we took care of the Japanese in WWII, we paid to rebuild their country, such that they are now one of the top 5 economies in the world. Same with Germany.

But we would be stupid to not look out for ourselves first. Altruism can only go so far. The world is lucky that we are in charge, as opposed to the Nazis, the Taliban, the Roman Empire, etc.

So if we have to blow up a few Iraqis who are acting shady, I say this: you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. For our more dense friends, I'll explain the metaphor - suspicious Iraqis are the eggs, and a more stable world economy and relative peace is the omelette.

I support our troops. Get 'em, fellas.

Damn Yankee

The rest of the truth

23.02.2004 09:51

I see: you can't make an omelette without killing a few thousand people.

If it's all about jealousy, as you suggest, then why aren't they attacking countries where the quality of life is as good or better than the US, like Sweden, Denmark, Canada, Japan, etc.? The answer is simple: it's nothing to do with jealousy, and everything to do with hatred of your military and economic policies.

You certainly do not take care in not harming innocents in war: your use in Iraq and Afghanistan of cluster bombs, depleted uranium shells and daisy-cutters is well documented. These barbaric weapons take vastly more civilian lives than are necessary, but help to minimise US casualties. You also refuse to sign the treaties banning use of land-mines and bioweapons. You demonstrably could not give a flying fuck about civilian lives, so don't bother claiming otherwise.

This is nothing new for the US: you are the only country to have ever used nuclear weapons in wartime. You nuked civilians in two Japanese cities, while peace talks were going on, to send a signal to the Soviets that you were willing to use them even where not necessary. More of your "broken eggs", I suppose.

I for one am hoping for a Bush election victory in November: this will hasten the inevitable next attack against a US city. I hope millions die this time, like the millions you've killed in your wars around the world. Then let's see how much sympathy you get this time.

Get 'em, fellas.

Per

Per is God

23.02.2004 18:27

Oh Per, Per, Per...

You're mixing your metaphors again. Omelettes don't require any human flesh at all - so you can indeed make an omelette without killing people. [British folk never have been very good at cuisine]

What you can't do is keep the world from going freakin' nuts without applying some lethal force every now and then. And for all the people that don't like the way we do it, I'd like to know what solution you propose.

You're not one of those Fascist-Anarchists that Ferris Beuler talks about, are you? No authority, no law, and people will just govern themseleves? It doesn't work.

I'm not sure why you are getting so mad. I like British people - you're a funny lot. But to wish for millions of civilians in an American city to be killed in the next terrorist attack...that's the jealousy that I'm talking about. I'd be jealous too, if I were you, with a name like Per.

I'll leave you with this, Per, take heed: "I am the Walrus."

Damn Yankee

Sad Americans

23.02.2004 19:26

I can't believe those of you who think they can criticize what happened in that video. Most Americans sit at home and watch their televisons on their huge fat ass and think they have the sligtest clue. Our guys over there never know when their time is up, and most of the time it is because they are ambushed by iraqis like in the video. Hell, they are even killing those trying to help us every day, like the most recent car bombing. We sit here with our bleeding hearts crying for peace, but most of them (iraqis) would slit our throats in our sleep and not think twice. You should focus all your wasted bitching and moaning on bettering yourself and your family, not criticizing those who are truely making a difference.

Marc
mail e-mail: jollym21@hotmail.com

Not British

23.02.2004 19:51

And I'm not an anarchist either. Like most people in my country I am, however, sickened by the disgusting hypocrisy of Americans like those who have commented on this article, claiming they're "fighting terrorism", "liberating the Iraqi people", etc.

I'm a programmer with skills in high demand in the US and elsewhere. I worked in the US for 3 long years. In the end I resigned, and left. The better wages simply weren't worth it. I couldn't stand the culture, the fact that I had to drive everywhere, the waste, the fat people everywhere, the unreadably bad newspapers, the enormous pressure to conform, and to buy, buy, buy. I hated the wilfull, happy ignorance of almost every single person I met or worked with, even people with advanced university degrees. I hated the insularity of the media, who pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist. I hated the oppressive bureaucracy, the way the FBI constantly chips away at its citizens rights, the huge, stupid, armed policemen everywhere. Most of all, I missed my freedom. America is the least free country in the Western world, and its people don't even care. My American girlfriend agreed, and moved back home to Europe with me. She's never looked back.

So don't bother telling me that I'm "jealous" because I want one of your cities to be attacked, and soon. It's just clear to me that we can't "keep the world from going freakin' nuts without applying some lethal force every now and then." Lethal force is the only thing you people listen too.

You're the menace. You're the rogue state. You will be stopped, but not by a conventional army, European or otherwise. It will be a combination of your mounting economic problems and by renewed terrorist attacks, from some of the many countries you are continuing to fuck daily. Once you're finally put to bed, the rest of us can all breathe easy again.

That's the solution, but it's not me that's proposing it. I'm just sitting back, and waiting for it to happen.

Per

Iraqies being taken out by an apache gun ship

24.02.2004 01:15

Like a good many viewers of the video, I agree that unless we know all the facts, we have no right to make a final comment about what we saw. For those who fail to understand what a WAR ZONE is, they need to take a trip to personally see what the hell it is all about. Make no doubt about it, it is a killing zone! It is one thing to sit in front of your boob tube and judge, but who made you judge and jury? Those men wearing that apache chopper are trained professionals in the work they are doing. The day they put on the uniform of one of our military service branches, they put it on to serve and to even give their life if need be. I did, my wife did, my father, his brothers all were proud to wear that uniform. If the call of their team leader said do it, then I say what is done is done. Funny how those who love to judge our troops are ALSO protected by those troops. Personally, what our boys did was right and those Iraqis were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Sort of like 911.... I say toast them like their brothers did ours on 911 and let God sort them out. Remember all the International Human Shields that went to Iraq? Where were they this time???????????????????

ardie fasinc

apache killing video

24.02.2004 04:59

While we have several minutes to truly analyze and digest the events in the video these men who are sent to perform a duty have merely fractions of seconds to assess a situation and furthermore to act. What you don't see up to the time of the video are the fire fights in nights previous. You don't feel the heart pounding when you realize you just survived men specifically looking to kill you in your helicopter. Fire recieved from the direction of the men requires a response. That response must be decidedly vicious. It is, in fact, a war. Death is result of such activity.

There was an exchange of long weapon-like items wrapped and being unwrapped in preparation for use. They had received fire from that direction. Even criminals will try to act non-chalant when conducting crimes. I'm not comparing them to criminals but I am adressing their seemingly oblivious lack of concern or acting as such so as to draw no further attention. In my luxury of minutes to assess I feel as if the aircrew were acting within the scope of their duties, but that's my opinion. I know many of these men. Their actions are dutiful. Political preferences don't factor into soldiering.

I am an apache pilot myself. I am an American. I originally hail from outside of New york City. My heart cried for those souls on 9/11. Then my soul groaned in the realization of how the WORLWIDE complacent trust in the fellow man led to those disasters. I saw a new world I am ashamed to leave to my son, which was left to me. I know the US and GB are equally dirty in covert operations worldwide, but the truth is both of our countries have provide varying degrees of stability throughout the world. And if I'm not mistaken over fifty years ago we had a little something to do with keeping all of Eurasia from speaking German and later keeping communst socialism from taking the deepest of roots also.

War is an extension of politics by other means. Those who fight the war do so because many cannot and unfortunately many don't have the resolve, the belly to stand for anything. The worst are those who only raise the alarm and provide little to no help. Next time you want to pass judgement feel free to do so because you are free and not forced to comply with threats to your family's well being. Feel free to do so because there are people who still think sustaining freedom and sharing the freedom that you excercise are things that are worth dying for.

Finally, when fighting you fight to win. Hesitation will usually cost you dearly. So when your finger is on the trigger you shoot to kill because thats what "the other guy" is doing. Go Guns or go HOME!

Brian O'Connell (USA)
mail e-mail: m230e1@hotmail.com

Iraq and 9/11

24.02.2004 09:23

"My heart cried for those souls on 9/11. Then my soul groaned in the realization of how the WORLWIDE complacent trust in the fellow man led to those disasters."

"I say toast them like their brothers did ours on 911 and let God sort them out."

Etc etc, in the many comments above. It amazes me that there are Americans who still believe that Iraq had anything at all to do with 9/11. Every single piece of evidence put forward for a connection between the two has been disproven or discredited. You might as well say that Saddam was responsible for the Kennedy assasination. It's flat-earther stuff.

All the allegations about Iraq being connected with 9/11 were put out by the men who were desperate to invade Iraq. But the plans were being laid for the invasion back in 1997, by members of a leading think-tank who are now senior members of the Bush cabinet. Read it here:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

9/11 was perpetrated by Saudis and Pakistanis. Pakistan has now been proven responsible for helping to run a black market in nuke spares. The Saudi government is strongly implicated in terrorism. Yet nobody's bombing them. No, we're still doing major business with both of them, and we give billions in aid to both dictatorships.

Wake up, you dupes.

Jeff

Reponse to Tom

25.02.2004 04:27

This is just in response to the first comment by Tom. I am a black Hawk crewchief and soon to be an Army avaitor. I'm not saying what the apache did was right or wrong I just want Tom to know the facts. The helicopter was no where near those Iraqies. Because of the design of the engines and weapon systems the Apache is capable of fireing from miles away and not being heard. I assure you they had no idea that there was any helicopter near. Make sure you know the facts before you post something next time.

Preston
mail e-mail: PrestonDean11@aol.com

You idiots

25.02.2004 04:28

Facts deduced from the video? What makes you think that you're smarter than the pilots and the people at HQ who gave the order to fire? No shit the apache wasn't dodging and weaving, it was pitch black outside, the Iraqi's couldn't SEE the Apache at first. And you don't DODGE WHEN NOTHING IS COMING AT YOU. IF the Iraqi's had managed to fire off their MISSLE (not an RPG, a STINGER, you twits) THEN the Apache would have already been conducting evasive maneuvers.

Here's a good question. If you hear an attack helicopter somewhere around you, why would you pull out something that's could be mistaken for a weapon from your truck? Why then would you also MOVE for it after your buddy just got blown to PIECES next to you? Oh, maybe because it was a weapon?

J H

Ive got a few facts for you

26.02.2004 00:58

I'll admit this video is very disturbing, but nobody here really has all the facts, thats whats really disturbing. One of the most important factors most of you fail to realize is the location of this event. Nobody seems to ask this question, do you really think the military would really send an Apache helicoptor to some random farm to kill a few people just so they can let people know what happens if they fuck with the U.S.? Thats stupid, even if they wanted to do something like that it sure as hell would be as releasing this tape, dont you think they'd assume it'd cause a lot more trouble then its worth? The real fact is these bastards were right outside of a U.S. air base, I'm pretty sure it was Balad but it could have been Al-asad, once formally controlled by the Iraqi military. I think it'd be more possible that one of our guys spotted something from the air, sent an Apache to investigate, and found these guys messin around outside of our base. It's true that there is a part of the clip cut out, my buddy has the whole thing, it shows one of these guys clearly dropping an RPG (just the warhead) by the tractor, possibly planting it for later use against the airbase, or an attempt to descretly hand it to the person with the RPG launcher. I'm not positive of how the first part of the clip goes but I believe it to be something like that, in any case, they're trying to mess with our guys right outside of their base. Our Army at that airbase get pounded by mortar fire almost every day by guys like these three, so screw any of you bastards who think this Apache didnt do the right thing, these guys are hero's in my book, for all any of you know they could have saved lives those days by killing those three. Besides did you hear the agressivness in the pilots voice? These are human beings just like you and me with real emotion, feelings, whatever. Just because they're in the Army doesnt mean they're cold hearted killers who love blowing people to bits, I bet when that pilot says "HIT HIM" he's thinking of his friend that got fucked up by a mortar shell that one of these bastards shot off the day before. Some of you people just dont think, there are so many obvious other things nobody even mentioned. Like the "white flag" the second guy pulled out of the tractor before he got hit...did you forget its a THERMAL cam? You wont see a white flag that white, the only reason its so white is because its hot, more likely then anything it was a peice of clothing, maybe something camoflauge, how the hell is that guy supposed to know the Apache has a thermal cam? I dont know who the bastard was who said he'd be shooting at us too, but I really hate you, your a damn moron. I bet that there's some 'insurgent' out there reading some of the bullshit you dumbasses wrote laughing at us because our own people want our own soldiers dead. Fuck you I want you dead, how does that feel? Whatever, you guys go on thinking what you want before you look up the facts. I'd be interested to find out what kind of crop that was, whether or not it's the right season to be out the plowing the feild, why there were 3 trucks all warm at the same time and why they need three people out there to do whatever they're doing, I really doubt it'd add up as farm work. But hey, I havnt seen any of those questions asked either. Last post I read was in mid-february so I dont think my browser loaded everything, but oh well. And I'm not going to have a debate about grammer, who gives a shit if I dont spell something right, I'm going to assume at least half of you morons can make out what I'm trying to say.

jgwolfgram (AIM)

And I've got a few facts for you

26.02.2004 02:15

"in any case, they're trying to mess with our guys right outside of their base."

And who decided it was "their base"? Whose country is it? Who invited them in?

"Our Army at that airbase get pounded by mortar fire almost every day by guys like these three"

That's a drag pal. Why not fuck off home then: no more pounding, end of problem.

"...these guys are hero's in my book, for all any of you know they could have saved lives those days by killing those three."

Whose lives? The lives of hired killers? The lives of invaders? The lives of oilmen scurrying around the country desperately looking for a safe piece of treasure to cart off home? Are you serious?

"Just because they're in the Army doesnt mean they're cold hearted killers who love blowing people to bits,"

You don't have to love killing to be a cold hearted killer. You can just choose to put your conscience on auto-pilot. I know it well, I was in the army myself, many years back.

"I bet when that pilot says "HIT HIM" he's thinking of his friend that got fucked up by a mortar shell that one of these bastards shot off the day before."

And I bet when one of the guys with a Stinger or an RPG says "HIT HIM" in Arabic, he's thinking about one of his family that got fragged by a cluster bomb. Who's the invader? Not the guy with the RPG. 10,000 Iraq civilian dead, and 500 US soldiers dead. Who's got more to think about when they're pulling the trigger?

"I dont know who the bastard was who said he'd be shooting at us too, but I really hate you, your a damn moron"

It wasn't me that said it. But I'd be shooting at you too, if I was an Iraqi. And you'd be shooting at me, if I invaded your country. Is that so tough to understand?

"I bet that there's some 'insurgent' out there reading some of the bullshit you dumbasses wrote laughing at us because our own people want our own soldiers dead."

Well I doubt they're laughing. Chucking you heavily-armed dolts out of their country isn't a fucking game, it's their lives, it's the lives of their families.

Americans go around the world invading countries, puffing out their chests and laughing about how fucking hard they are: "Fuck with the eagle, you get the claw!" Yeah, right. Until it starts to not quite go according to plan, and lots of bodies start getting quietly airlifted back at night. Then we get fucking Vietnam poetry, we get movies, we get self-righteous tragic horseshit about how guys that volunteered for the US Army are really nice guys, caught in an impossible position. Well fuck that. Don't like getting shot at, don't join an army that goes around the world bombing and killing people that never did a god damn thing against you. Iraq never did shit to the USA, and neither did Vietnam, Cambodia, Panama or Grenada. But you invade them because you fucking well feel like it.

I've got zero sympathy for you and your jarhead buddies. You're going to get your asses kicked, again. Then you'll leave, and we'll get to watch the next "Black Hawk Down" in 5 years about how heroic it all was. What a crock of shit.

Phil

Its a war

26.02.2004 03:03

If they are civilians why are they playing with a 105mm cannon. Maybe I can see this cause im a FA man. And as long as they are alive they are still a threat to our men. and as far as being able to hear the helicopter. how much can you hear in the video. You can hear the mk-19 but you cant hear the helocopter? A MK-19 isnt that much louder then a helocopter. I've only been up in a blackhawk a couple of times and only fired a MK-19 once but im pretty sure the blackhawk was louder. the big truck is clearly a military truck too. I dont know why civilians would be using a military truck unless they wanted to be targets. And for those of you who think that it is all farm equipment, i spent a little bit on a farm growing up. for one the truck is parked in the middle of a field. not off it like most farmers would do.

John
mail e-mail: Teeter_151@hotmail.com

Phil...

26.02.2004 08:54

"And who decided it was "their base"? Whose country is it? Who invited them in?"

We decided its our base, right after we kicked the Iraqi army out of it, you know the guys killing their buddies who were trying to surrender to us. After we did that, we took it since it wasn't being occupied anymore. I may not agree with all the political reasons of why we're there, but I agree with what our fellas did in order to defend themselves from the 105mm cannon John says it is.

"That's a drag pal. Why not fuck off home then: no more pounding, end of problem."

Yeah, lets go home right now while everything is already a mess so some other nutcase can get some followers and become the next military power to govern Iraq...wait, isnt that how Saddam got in control? If he can do it why cant we? Hmm..

"Whose lives? The lives of hired killers? The lives of invaders? The lives of oilmen scurrying around the country desperately looking for a safe piece of treasure to cart off home? Are you serious?"

A lot of guys arn't in the U.S. Army for the politics, I bet a lot of the soldiers would rather not be there, the heros in that helicopter saved the lives of their friends. If those three wernt trying to kill us we wouldnt have killed them.

"You don't have to love killing to be a cold hearted killer. You can just choose to put your conscience on auto-pilot. I know it well, I was in the army myself, many years back."

That explains a lot of your anger.

"And I bet when one of the guys with a Stinger or an RPG says "HIT HIM" in Arabic, he's thinking about one of his family that got fragged by a cluster bomb. Who's the invader? Not the guy with the RPG. 10,000 Iraq civilian dead, and 500 US soldiers dead. Who's got more to think about when they're pulling the trigger?"

See now this is the problem I have with your entire argument. How do you even know these guys are from Iraq? For all you know they could be religous extremists coming into the country of Iraq just because they hate the U.S. Do you really think the Iraqi police would be that big of a target by their own people? Maybe you should take that into consideration before you start asuming things. I havnt really seen a lot of fact in your arguments at all, just seems like a lot of BS to me.

"Americans go around the world invading countries, puffing out their chests and laughing about how fucking hard they are: "Fuck with the eagle, you get the claw!" Yeah, right."

Blah blah blah, more assumptions, its nice how you can stereotype the feelings of an entire nation like that. You havnt seen me say "british people think they know so much more then us americans, they're just pissed off because they dont have a say in what goes on around the world". I dont think that about every brit, just you. And why is it that people think we go around invading countries, if we did that we'd have canada and mexico a long time ago. We just mess with the 'evil-doers' =D

"Until it starts to not quite go according to plan, and lots of bodies start getting quietly airlifted back at night. Then we get fucking Vietnam poetry, we get movies, we get self-righteous tragic horseshit about how guys that volunteered for the US Army are really nice guys, caught in an impossible position. Well fuck that. Don't like getting shot at, don't join an army that goes around the world bombing and killing people that never did a god damn thing against you. Iraq never did shit to the USA, and neither did Vietnam, Cambodia, Panama or Grenada. But you invade them because you fucking well feel like it."

Like I said I dont agree with all the political views of why we went in, but in some ways I'm glad we did. Saddam wanted to play his games with the world, he could have easily complied with the UN and we wouldnt be in this mess. I dont like dead bodies on either side of this shithole we're in, but whats done is done. And all this 'poetry' you dont like, you dont have to read, nobody is asking you to go to these movies, they're a reflection of how people felt and how they got through hard shit, some are to make money but a lot of them are serious deep shit. Dont even fucking bring up volunteer's and Vietnam in the same sentance, if you knew shit you'd know about the draft. A lot of those guys didn't want to go, some where young and stupid and thought firing a gun would be cool but when they got into it realized how serious it was. And fuck you for thinking Bush represents the entire nation, dont think we all like being in this position, dont fuckin think all those soldiers wanted to go iraq instead of staying home with their families, because you'd be wrong. Same goes with Vietnam, Iraq was probably a good excuse to get revenge for 9/11 for Bush, whether or not they had anything to do with it. And it was probably good for him politically b/c he thought he might be re-elected by it, but dont think all Americans like it.

One more thing, people here join the army because of opportunity, we get 32k college money just for a few years, a lot of people dont have access to that kind of money. Others join because of the jobs, the pilot that killed those guys will probably go on to be a commercial helicopter pilot, infantry will be police, there's over 200 jobs just in the army, we dont join because we like going around the world bombing and killing, we join because of the incentives ya moron. Check out goarmy.com and maybe you'll understand.

Whatever, stop assuming and give me some real facts because so far you aint got shit, just a lot of built up anger because YOU cant be all you can be.

jgwolfgram

Gangsters

26.02.2004 12:02

"Yeah, lets go home right now while everything is already a mess so some other nutcase can get some followers and become the next military power to govern Iraq...wait, isnt that how Saddam got in control? If he can do it why cant we? Hmm.. "

No, that's NOT how Saddam got in control. Saddam got in control because the USA put him and the Baath party in power, in the last "regime change". The White House back then didn't like that nationalist government of Abd al-Karim Qasim, so they overthrew him in a bloody coup, and installed the Baathists. Installing dictators and puppet governments has been a US specialty for a very long time. Now they want to do it again.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/217.html

"I dont think that about every brit, just you. "

I'm not a Brit.

"One more thing, people here join the army because of opportunity, we get 32k college money just for a few years, a lot of people dont have access to that kind of money. Others join because of the jobs, the pilot that killed those guys will probably go on to be a commercial helicopter pilot, infantry will be police, there's over 200 jobs just in the army, we dont join because we like going around the world bombing and killing, we join because of the incentives ya moron. Check out goarmy.com and maybe you'll understand. "

I was in the US Army, ya moron. I understand far better than you do. Is it OK to join an imperial war machine if the money, the career opportunities and the training are really good? If Bin Laden makes you a better offer, will you go work for him?

"And why is it that people think we go around invading countries, if we did that we'd have canada and mexico a long time ago. We just mess with the 'evil-doers' =D"

No, you "mess with" whoever is in the way of your business interests. Are you seriously suggesting that the US doesn't invade countries around the world, installing dictators and putting down popular revolutions against them?

Here are some of the invasions the US has carried out against your so-called "evil-doers":

SOUTH DAKOTA/1890 (-?)/Troops/300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee.

ARGENTINA/1890/Troops/Buenos Aires interests protected.

CHILE/l891/Troops/Marines clash with nationalist rebels.

HAITI/1891/Troops/Black revolt on Navassa defeated.

IDAHO/1892/Troops/Army suppresses silver miners' strike.

HAWAII/l893 (-?)/Naval, troops/Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.

CHICAGO/1894/Troops/Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed.

NICARAGUA/l894/Troops/Month-long occupation of Bluefields.

CHINA/l894-95/Naval, troops/Marines land in Sino-Japanese War.

KOREA/l894-96/Troops/Marines kept in Seoul during war.

PANAMA/1895/Troops, naval/Marines land in Colombian province.

NICARAGUA/l896/Troops/Marines land in port of Corinto.

CHINA/l898-1900/Troops/Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies.

PHILIPPINES/l898-1910(-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, killed 600,000
Filipinos

CUBA/l898-1902(-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, still illegally holds
Navy base.

PUERTO RICO/1898(-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, occupation continues.

GUAM/l898(-?)/Naval, troops/Seized from Spain, still use as base.

MINNESOTA/l898(-?)/Troops/Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake.

NICARAGUA/l898/Troops/Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.

SAMOA/1899(-?)/Troops/Battle over succession to throne.

NICARAGUA/l899/Troops/Marines land at port of Bluefields.

IDAHO/1899-1901/Troops/Army occupies Coeur d'Alene mining region.

OKLAHOMA/1901/Troops/Army battles Creek Indian revolt

PANAMA/1901-03(-?)/Naval, troops/Broke off from Colombia, annexed Canal Zone

HONDURAS/l903/Troops/Marines intervene in revolution.

DOMINICAN REP./1903-04/Troops/U.S. interests protected in Revolution.

KOREA/1904-05/Troops/Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.

CUBA/1906-09/Troops/Marines land in democratic election.

NICARAGUA/1907/Troops/"Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up.

HONDURAS/l907/Troops/Marines land during war with Nicaragua.

PANAMA/l908/Troops/Marines intervene in election contest.

NICARAGUA/l9l0/Troops/Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.

HONDURAS/1911/Troops/U.S. interests protected in civil war.

CHINA/1911-41/Naval, troops/Continuous occupation with flare-ups

CUBA/1912/Troops/U.S. interests protected in Havana.

PANAMA/l9l2/Troops/Marines land during heated election.

HONDURAS/l9l2/Troops/Marines protect U.S. economic interests.

NICARAGUA/1912-33/Troops, bombing/20-year occupation, fought guerrillas.

MEXICO/l9l3/Naval/Americans evacuated during revolution.

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC/1914/Naval/Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.

COLORADO/1914/Troops/Breaking of miners' strike by Army.

MEXICO/1914-18/Naval, troops/Series of interventions against nationalists.

HAITI/1914-34/Troops, bombing/19-year occupation after revolts.

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC/1916-24/Troops/8-year Marine occupation.

CUBA/1917-33/Troops/Military occupation, economic protectorate.

WORLD WAR I/19l7-18/Naval, troops/Ships sunk, fought Germany for 1 l/2 years.

USSR/1918-22/Naval, troops/Five landings to fight Bolsheviks in effort to
overthrow the fledgling socialist government.

PANAMA/1918-20/Troops/"Police duty" during unrest after elections.

HONDURAS/l9l9/Troops/Marines land during election campaign.

GUATEMALA/1920/Troops/2-week intervention against unionists.

WEST VIRGINIA/1920-21/Troops, bombing/Army intervenes against mineworkers.

TURKEY/1922/Troops/Fought nationalists in Smyrna.

CHINA/1922-27/Naval, troops/Deployment during nationalist revolt.

HONDURAS/1924-25/Troops/Landed twice during election strife.

PANAMA/1925/Troops/Marines suppress general strike.

CHINA/l928-34/Troops/Marines stationed throughout the country.

EL SALVADOR/l932/Naval/Warships sent during Marti revolt.

WASHINGTON DC/1932/Troops/Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.

DETROIT/l943/Troops/Army puts down Black rebellion.

IRAN/l946/Nuclear threat/Soviet troops told to leave north.

YUGOSLAVIA/l946/Nuclear threat/Response to shooting-down of U.S. plane.

URUGUAY/l947/Nuclear threat/Bombers deployed as show of strength.

GREECE/l947-49/Command operation/U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.

GERMANY/l948/Nuclear threat/Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift

PHILIPPINES/l948-54/Command operation/CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.

PUERTO RICO/1950/Command operation/Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.

KOREA/l951-53(-?)/Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats/U.S.& South Korea
fight China & North Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in l950, and against
China in l953. China accuses U.S. of biological warfare. Still have bases.

IRAN/l953/Command operation/CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.

VIETNAM/l954/Nuclear threat/French offered bombs to use against siege.

GUATEMALA/l954/Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat/CIA directs exile
invasion after new gov't nationalizes U.S. companies' lands; bombers based in
Nicaragua.

EGYPT/l956/Nuclear threat/Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis.

LEBANON/l958/Troops, naval/Marine occupation against rebels.

IRAQ/1958/Nuclear threat/Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.

CHINA/l958/Nuclear threat/China told not to move on Taiwan isles.

PANAMA/1958/Troops/Flag protests erupt into confrontation.

VIETNAM/l960-75/Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats/Fought South
Vietnamese revolt & North Vietnam during the Vietnamese civil war; over two
million Vietnamese casualties in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968
and l969.

LAOS/1961/Command operation/Military buildup during guerrilla war.

CUBA/l961/Command operation/CIA-directed exile invasion fails.

GERMANY/l961/Nuclear threat/Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.

CUBA/l962/Nuclear threat, naval/Blockade during missile crisis; near-war
with Soviet Union.

PANAMA/l964/Troops/Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.

INDONESIA/l965/Command operation/One million-plus killed in CIA-assisted army
coup. CIA provides assassination lists to military, plus weapons.

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC/1965-66/Troops, bombing/Marines land during election
campaign.

GUATEMALA/l966-67/Command operation/Green Berets intervene against rebels.

DETROIT/l967/Troops/Army battles Blacks, 43 killed.

UNITED STATES/l968/Troops/King shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities.

CAMBODIA/l969-75/Bombing, troops, naval/Up to 2 million killed in decade
during/after U.S. invasion of Cambodia and bombing, starvation, and political
chaos.

OMAN/l970/Command operation/U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion to intervene
in Omani civil war.

LAOS/l971-73/Command operation, bombing/U.S. directs South Vietnamese
invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.

SOUTH DAKOTA/l973/Command operation/Army directs Wounded Knee siege of
Lakotas.

MIDEAST/1973/Nuclear threat/World-wide alert during Mideast War.

CHILE/1973/Command operation/CIA-backed coup ousts democratically-elected
Marxist president and installs brutal military dictatorship.

CAMBODIA/l975/Troops, bombing/Gas captured ship, 28 die in copter crash.

ANGOLA/l976-?/Command operation/CIA assists South African-backed rebels.

IRAN/l980/Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing/Raid to rescue Embassy
hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get
involved in revolution.

LIBYA/l981/Naval jets/Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.

EL SALVADOR/l981-?/Command operation/U.S. mercenaries, military advisors,
overflights aid anti-rebel war.

NICARAGUA/l981-90/Command operation, naval/CIA funds, trains, equips and
directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.

HONDURAS/l982-?/Troops/Maneuvers help build bases near borders.

LEBANON/l982-84/Naval, bombing, troops/Marines expel PLO and back Christian
Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions.

GRENADA/l983-84/Troops, bombing/Invasion four years after socialist
revolution. U.S. installs puppet government.

LIBYA/l986/Bombing, naval/Air strikes try to topple nationalist gov't.

BOLIVIA/1987/Troops/Coast Guard and Army assists raids on cocaine region.

IRAN/l987-88/Naval, bombing/US intervenes on side of Iraq in Gulf War.

LIBYA/1989/Naval jets/Two Libyan jets shot down.

VIRGIN ISLANDS/1989/Troops/St. Croix Black unrest after storm.

PHILIPPINES/1989/Jets/Air cover provided for government against coup.

PANAMA/1989-?/Troops, bombing/Nationalist government ousted by invasion.
U.S. installs puppet government and refuses to hold new elections.

LIBERIA/1990-?/Troops/Foreigners evacuated during civil war; troops protect
CIA communications/listening post.

SAUDI ARABIA/1990-?/Troops, jets/Iraq countered after invading Kuwait.
Forces also in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.

IRAQ/1990-?/Naval, bombing, troops/Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports;
large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.

KUWAIT/1991-?/Naval, bombing, troops/Attacks on Iraqi military; effort to
return dictatorial royal family to throne.

"Iraq was probably a good excuse to get revenge for 9/11 for Bush, whether or not they had anything to do with it. And it was probably good for him politically b/c he thought he might be re-elected by it, but dont think all Americans like it."

72% of Americans supported the war at the beginning:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/iraq_poll030321.html

Now that the US bodycount is going up, and no solution is in sight, they've stopped being so cheerful and gung-ho about it. But that's just so typical of the US: it's a rogue state and a bully, and the US public are happy to be dropping missiles and cluster bombs on foreign cities as long as they think they'll get away with it.

That enough facts for you?

Phil

sad

26.02.2004 15:58

You people are sad. As an apache crewcheif I know what those pilots were going through. They have to make quick decisions that might not be right but at the time they were doing what they thought was right because they honestly believed they were in danger. Instead of picking apart people for doing what they have to, support them. After all we are fighting and DIEING for your freedom to pick us apart.

eric

Fighting and dying

26.02.2004 17:05

Fighting and dying for oil, you mean. Freedom's got nothing to do with it.

Mick

Not tool time

26.02.2004 19:54

Look at the body laungauge of the Iraqi dumping the Object in the field. If they were tools, irrigation pipe, post hole drivers, or posts; why would he toss them down like he wanted to get away from them in much haste? Obviously because if he were to be caught holding the "object", he would be killed. What did he have ahold of- on the object? A handle of sorts. Post hole drivers have a handles, but not like that, and drivers are not that long. Why would he dump one piece of irrigation pipe and run from it? Logic is over-riding those ideas. To me, the object looks like a SAM or Stinger style anti-air launcher, the other object dumped is a Missle.

What one has to understand in this situation is that the mujihadeen(sp?) will dump weapons, and try and blend back into the population. I am confident that if these guys were not killed, they would later be involved in killing coalition soldiers, Iraqi Police, or even civilians. I'm not taking an irrational stance on this one, i'll save my accusations and battles for a more clear case of an injustice.

Finally, the Apache was too far away to be heard.

Guy

Bullshit

26.02.2004 20:31

after watching this video twice i notice that the second person to be executed was waving a piece of clothing to surrender and was still shoot. i am at a loss for words. how does the army get away with this?

Rad

You People Need To Open Your Eyes

26.02.2004 23:43

Everyone looking at this article needs to realize that we are at war with a country harboring TERRORISTS that repeatedly ATTACK and threatin to ATTACK the USA!!! We as a country, as a whole, sent our MILITARY in to relinquish the problem forcefully!! If you people want a peaceful war on TERRORISM you need to hop in your minivans and take your pickets to Baghdad! I'm tired of seeing US SOLDIERS DIE EVERYDAY but when the media gets ahold of footage of pilots killing the ENEMY you cry and bicker!! You guys need to bitch about cops shooting kids with flashlights!!! WAKE UP AND GROW SOME BALLS!!!

GI JOE

You need to open your eyes

27.02.2004 09:22

"we are at war with a country harboring TERRORISTS that repeatedly ATTACK and threatin to ATTACK the USA!!!"

Bullshit. There were no terrorists in Iraq threatening to attack the USA when Saddam was in power. You sure as hell made a whole new crop of them by going in though. Nice one.

"We as a country, as a whole, sent our MILITARY in to relinquish the problem forcefully!!

Yeah, we all wish you would relinquish the problem forcefully:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=relinquish

"I'm tired of seeing US SOLDIERS DIE EVERYDAY..."

Then start campaigning to bring them home. Every extra day they stay out there means more boys and girls dying.

Per

Per Phil

27.02.2004 23:04

Man, you guys are exactly what the media wants you to be.
You read, watch, listen...to news, websites, radio, people and believe every freak'n word. Phil, you can site a million references if you want, but you are still a freak'n idiotic jerk. Same for you, Per...and the rest of you copy machines/recorders. Unless you were at any of the meetings held among any of the people who were/are in conflict with others, YOU HAVE NO PROOF OF WHY THINGS ARE HAPPENING THE WAY THE DID/ARE.
The media publishes what they feel gets the most reaction. You idiots just bend over and let them shove all of their biased and personally opionated information straight up your asses. Then you try to repeat the parts that grabbed your attention the most, leaving some parts out, right after you got the info from a source that already cut out info too.
I believe in "invading" other countries to help the helpless. I personally wish the US or some other country that is also not a coward to go to Sudan and stop the Jihad that is happening there. Oh, you do not know what is happening there, then talk to Dennis Bennett who runs Servant's Hearts (helping the helpless). I think you will understand...well maybe some of you.
Hey Per, you fuck'n numbnut, ask your girlfriend if she enjoyed the freedom of being able to be educated in the US, unlike the women were able to in MANY middle eastern countries. Oh, and I am sure you will want to criticize the education she/you got, whatever makes you happy. You get out, what you put in.

Erudite

US media and education

28.02.2004 08:14

You're trying to imply that the choice is between the US way and the middle eastern way. Rubbish. We don't need to choose between two extremes.

The fact is that the US is far less free than most European countries. Come and visit, and see for youself. Public services are badly underfunded in the US. You can't "get out what you put in" from a school with chronic underfunding, demoralised & underpaid teachers, gun problems among the students, lack of proper facilities, not enough textbooks, etc. Maybe this is why functional illiteracy is so high in the US:

http://indian-river.fl.us/living/services/als/facts.html

49% functional illiteracy, compared to 16% in Canada. Are all those millions of Americans not "putting in" enough? Or maybe your system is broken.

Bush is now completing the task of destroying public education in America, while he hands billions in tax cuts to the rich, and spends 6 billion a month on his idiotic oil wars.

As for your charge of media bias, I have never seen such a right-wing, pro-war biased media as you've got in the US.

From Project Censored.org:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The eleven largest or most influential media corporations in the United States are General Electric Company (NBC), Viacom Inc. (cable), The Walt Disney Company (ABC), Time Warner Inc.(CNN), Westinghouse Electric Corporation (CBS), The News Corporation Ltd. (Fox), Gannett Co. Inc., Knight-Ridder Inc., New York Times Co., Washington Post Co., and the Times Mirror Co. These eleven major broadcast and print media corporations now represent a major portion of the news information systems in the US. For most Americans their entire source of news and information comes from these eleven corporations.

Collectively, these eleven major media corporations had 155 directors in 1996. These 155 directors, a group small enough to fit in a medium-size university classroom, also hold 144 directorships on the boards of Fortune 1,000 corporations in the United States. They are the media elite of the world. While they may not agree on abortion and other domestic issues, they do represent the collective vested interests of a significant portion of corporate America and share a common commitment to free market capitalism, economic growth, internationally protected copyrights, and a government dedicated to protecting their interests.

The eleven media organizations have interlocking directorships with each other through 36 other Fortune 1,000 corporations creating a solid network of overlapping interests and affiliations. All eleven media corporations have direct links with at least two of the other top media organizations. General Electric, owner of NBC, has the highest rate of shared affiliations with 17 direct corporate links to nine of 10 other media corporations.
Given this interlocked media network, it is more than safe to say that major media in the United States effectively represent the interests of corporate America, and that the media elite are the watchdogs of acceptable ideological messages, the parameters of news and information content, and the general use of media resources.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is why whenever a journalist strays from the corporate line, they get slapped down or sacked.

http://www.counterpunch.com/nimmo0823.html

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=21&ItemID=3122

It's another manifestation of how unfree and straitjacketed the US electorate is. In one sense we cannot blame you for your ignorance and insularity, since they only ever hear a few close variations on one narrow corporate line of opinion from your media. But eyewitness reports can be found all over the internet. But you have to WANT to find it: it won't get handed to you on a plate.

Finally, yes I know well what is going on in the Sudan. It is well-reported here. But please remember what happened the last time you tried to invade Somalia, before you go wishing for another invasion.

`Per

German Panorama TV investigates Apache footage

28.02.2004 18:34

Check out this follow up story -

http://www.journalism.co.uk/news/story823.shtml

A German TV producer picked up the story on journalism.co.uk on 14 January and investigated further. He's spoken to a former US general that confirms this tape shows an illegal action - plus another tape of footage broadcast on CNN in October.

Check out the link for more details...

Jemima Kiss
mail e-mail: jemima@journalism.co.uk
Homepage: http://www.journalism.co.uk

if you can´t see...

29.02.2004 00:12

I´ve seen over a thousand weapons in my life, and if that is not at least a rifle in a carryingcase you can call me a blind fuck!!! do you people really think that it´s something to do with agriculture?!? -get a life! it´s a weapon allright, and the rugheads got what they wanted! war is war, it´s always nasty... but that´s the way it is. it´s so easy to judge the guys on the field behind yuor computer, but only if you´d been there..

sammy
mail e-mail: sammy@pammy.com

Yes, you're blind.

29.02.2004 11:23

"During the Panorama documentary, US Viet Nam veteran General Robert G Gard, describes both events as 'inexcusable murders'. Professor Stefan Oeter, an expert in international law, confirms that the shooting of a wounded person is a war crime."

Lt. General Robert Gard had a 31-year career in the Army. His last assignment was as president of National Defense University. He's now president emeritus of Monterey Institute for International Studies. Maybe you should phone him up, and explain to him where he went wrong.

Bill Z

Translation of Panorama documentary

29.02.2004 12:19

PANORAMA Nr. 637, from 26 Feb. 2004

http://www.ndrtv.de/panorama/archiv/2004/0226/soldaten.html

http://www.ndrtv.de/panorama/data/us_soldaten_als_kriegsverbrecher.rtf

Shooting the wounded - US soldiers as war criminals

Presentation: Anja Reschke

They wanted to bring liberty to Iraq and establish a stable democracy. That was the avowed goal of the US government for the last Gulf War. The Americans continue to hold to this project, and the own soldiers daily give their lives. But the confidence into their good intentions is shaken if the peacebringers should emerge as war criminals. Volker Steinhoff offers shocking photographs, which document offences against international law valid world-wide.

Commentary:
The grey pictures- in Iraq, everyday life. Pictures, which none can see anymore. Daily new victims: US soldier, policeman, civilians. And only rarely, compassion for the murdered ones. US soldiers hunt their militant opponents. Quite understandably. But there are so far hardly any pictures of this hunt. 1st December last year, the war is long past. An Apache helicopter of the 4th Infantry Division starts on the terrorist hunt. The pilots discover three people on a road north of Baghdad. The photographs from the American helicopter document the consequences.

Sound with subtitles:
"A big truck over here, he is having a little pow-wow."
"Yeah."

Commentary:
The pictures are passed to the television network ABC. The camera in the Apache helicopter films everything, also noting radio traffic. And in this way, shocking minutes of a crime develop. First is a person at the car, takes an article out and starts.

Sound with subtitles:
"I got a guy running, throwing a weapon."
"Smoke him."

Commentary:
Before the US soldier in the helicopter shoots with its 30-mm-cannon shoots at the people, he inquires for safety's sake one more time.

Sound with subtitles:
"Hit him."
"Got him."
"Good."
"Second one."
"Hit the other one."
"Hit the truck."
"Go to the right, see if anyone's moving by the truck."
"Take the trucks out?"
"Is there anybody in the truck? Wait for movement."
"Have not seen any."

Commentary:
Then nevertheless, another person moves.

Sound with subtitles:
"Store that - auto range store."
"There's another guy moving, right there."
"Good. Fire."
"Hit him."
"Target 4."
"We take the other truck out?"
"Roger."
"Wait for movement by the truck."
"Movement right there."
"Roger."
"He's wounded."
"Hit him."
"He's in the truck."
"Hit the truck and him."
"Go forward of it and hit him."
"Roger."

Commentary:
We show these photographs a former general of the US army. Above all one scene is remarkable to him:

Voiceover from General Robert Gard, US Army (translation):

"According to the pilot the Iraqi resistance fighter is wounded. Nevertheless, the instruction is to kill him. I think it would have made more sense much to arrest the wounded one, and interrogate him. But completely apart from that: the killing of a disabled, wounded opponent is forbidden. According to the Geneva convention, that’s murder."

Commentary:
And thereby it would be a war crime. A renowned German expert in international law also sees it similarly.

Professor Stefan Oeter (translation):
"International law sets that opposing combatants may be only fired at, so long as, how should I put this, are militarily active, and if they refrain from combat are required to be spared. Thus to that extent, the suspicion is that an offence against international law is present here, and serious offences against international law, against humanitarian international law, are war crimes."

Commentary:
The pictures - surely only one snapshot from the reality. A final judgement could be undertaken only after an exact investigation. But the US Department of Defense refuses all comment in relation to PANORAMA. The shots from the helicopter, in which a wounded person is shot - it has not been taken up as a topic for newspapers and public protests. It’s also not an isolated case.

8th April 2003, a suburb of Baghdad. During a search, American soldiers are threatened and commence shooting. CNN participates and films. An Iraqi is wounded because of the soil, the rifle beside him. The US soldiers shoot it nevertheless. After the hit, there is much rejoicing. The same fatal shot again, but in a much clearer version, which is available on the Internet.

Voiceover from US Marine Sgt. Anthony Riddle:
"Like, man, you guys are dead now, you know. But it was a good feeling. I mean, afterwards you're like, hell, yeah, that was awesome. Let's do it again."

We showed this scene to the former US general.

Voiceover from General Robert Gard: (translation)
"I consider this inexcusable. This didn’t happened in the center of wild combat. This was the cold-blooded murder of a severely wounded person."

Commentary:
Hard judgements, frightening pictures. But there are no public protests, nobody demanding accountability. With no accountability, the consequences are foreseeable.

Voiceover General Robert Gard (translation):
"If the Iraqis have the feeling that illegal killings are taking place, this will lead to revenge. And therefore at least one part of the resistance in this country will be stirred up."

Commentary:
"Revenge" - surely no excuse for the daily notices in the Iraq. But a welcome pretext for terrorists to sow further hatred. Not a good basis for peace and democracy.

Normally this would be a case which would have to be examined before the International Criminal Court in the Hague. But the present ICC agreement was never ratified by the American government. More information at

http://www.panorama.de

Report: Volker Steinhoff
Editor: Maja Schirdewan
Presenter: Anja Reschke

an IMC guy

New article

29.02.2004 12:50

documentary translation now posted up as new article:

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/02/286153.html

many thanks to jemima for the link to the Panorama documentary.

IMC guy

We support our troops.

01.03.2004 13:26

I see a lot of mights, maybe's, what if's, and assuming going on in this forum. If none of you have noticed by now it is the media that has control over this whole Apache thing now. They make it out to be bad or good depending on what country your from. Where I come from (TEXAS) Mights are on a chickens ass, Assume = making "ass" out of "u" and "me", and what if's can solve world peace. The only ones that know what's going on can't let the whole truth out because of security and safety of troops. I bet 99% of the people in this forum, me included, have no idea the truth behind this clip.

From everything I've read about insane Huusain he was doing almost just like Stallon, and Hitler. This man needed out of power.

For those of you who read this and put your lives on the line by making decisions on wether its a shovel or a rifle, I support everything you do. Its your life to be making decisions with. Without you over there no one would have the right to free speech and be able to bitch in this forum like they are.

NOTICE: I never said wether anybody was right or wrong and never said anything about oil.
I am just a citezen who lets others volunteer for milatry service so I don't have to, but I support them 100%. These are the people who know whats going on. An armchair quarterback has never pulled a game out.

jimmyflood

True patriotism

01.03.2004 21:48

It isn't patriotic to support your country's troops when they're committing war crimes. Blind support of everything every American soldier does all the time, right or wrong, isn't patriotism. It's just lazy, willful ignorance.
Use the brain God gave you.

Larry M

Good Job!! Too bad there were only three deaths:)

02.03.2004 01:37

We might as well be using the military weapons we have created. Why not take out a couple stinkin arabs and rid the world of the filthy dogs. They should do the same to a nearby preschool on grandparents visiting day

p cowan

Are you STUPID????

04.03.2004 00:39

You people are fucking idiots! They come over here and blow up our own people, and we should leave them alone???? You people that disagree with the video are the people that need dropped off in Iraq to see how long you Fuck them, and KILL them all!

Shane

for those with nothing better to do

04.03.2004 07:12

If I had the kind of time that you spend worrying about what we soldiers do, then a would have less time to protect your sorry asses. freedom comes with a price that must be paid, and we are tired of seeing it paid by coalition forces. have you forgot, this war has come to your countryman (world trade center, americans, brits, chinese need I go on), may be we should start thanking soldiers for what we have, instead of making accusations. p.s. that haagee we in a anti-aircraft gun. made to destroy helicopters. war is a mother fucker.
gary

gary and meri

This war?

04.03.2004 09:20

When you say "this war has come to your countryman", I assume you're talking about the "war on terror"? Iraq has got nothing to do with that. Lots of lies were told to make it look like it was, and these lies have now been exposed. The Bush mob have been planning to invade the Middle East for the oil since back in 1997.

You're not protecting us, you're putting us in danger. Get out now.

Mark

Enough with this!

07.03.2004 20:59

Almost everyone on this site is retarded. There is no war, that ended a little over a month after it started (we kicked royal ass). This is now a different kind of mission and the events in this video document what the U.S. and other democratic countries are willing to do to combat terrorism. . .regardless of whether it's on U.S. soil or abroad. The U.S. does have interests overseas as do other countries. Every year the tax payers of these countries pay billions of dollars and send son's and daughters to foreign lands to fix other people's problems and the best some of you can come up with as a reason is oil? Are you high?

We were accused of getting involved in the 91 war against Iraq on behalf of Kuwait because of oil. Now that the "Coalition" (not just U.S.) has toppled the government over there where's the pipeline back to the Exxon next to my house. . .it's not there dumbasses, and the price of gasoline still keeps rising.

Let's not forget that while the embargo was on over there the French continued to have contact with Saddam, the Germans were rumored to have done the same. At the time the U.N. vote was on the table the French and Germans were too worried about the money Saddam owed them then the freedom of the Iraqi people. If it was about free oil I'm sure the French and Germans would have gone along.

Most of you are truly stupid. . .but take comfort in the fact that what the U.S. and the coalition are spreading is the right for dumbasses like yourselves to openly discuss events like these. So enjoy your freedom and to whoever is getting all that FREE oil. . .please send some my way, I've paid enough in taxes, lost friends and family over the past 20 years for it.

Bill

You bleeding hear liberals really do not have a clue...........

07.03.2004 22:58

Unless you were there you really have no clue as to what went on over there. I crossed the berm into Iraq on the first day of the war and was in the country for over 10 months. During the war everyone was suspect. We were fighting soldiers that wore civilian clothes, we were fighting civilians that had explosives strapped to their chests and hidden under coats. Any one of them could come up to you under the guise of being friendly and blow you and your buddies into a pile of goo.

After the war we found ourselves in another situation. Insurgents that didn't give a shit who they killed, coalition or Iraqi. More Iraqi policemen have been killed that US soldiers now, by people just like these.

So before you sit there on your high and mighty moral thrones and point a judgemental finger at someone maybe you should have walked a few miles in our desert boots. Maybe then you would understand. If after that you still see us as killers, well I guess your head is permanently stuck up your ass, at which there is no hope for you.

Scott Murphy
mail e-mail: st_murphy@hotmail.com

Deluded

08.03.2004 09:54

Right... if we don't see your invasion and occupation as an American Tragedy, we "don't have a clue", we're "retarded". Oddly, the vast majority outside the US seems to disagree with you, as do millions in the US itself. Are they all without "a clue"?
US General Robert Gard says this is a video of a war crime perpetrated by US soldiers. Does he "not have a clue" either?

You had no reason to invade Iraq, and no right. Any decent person's sympathy is entirely with the 9,000+ civilians you've killed. You're a volunteer in a brutal imperial army, on its latest adventure abroad. Nobody forced you to sign up to this. The thousands of Iraqi dead and maimed, on the other hand, had no choice in the matter. Your country put Saddam in power, and kept him in power. You're the cause of the problem. Go elsewhere if you're looking for a shoulder to sob on.

You might see yourself as some sort of victim, but don't expect us to agree with you when all the evidence is against you.

Ray

billz

09.03.2004 17:53

Here is a statement by Gen. Ralph E. Beilstien of the US Army: "After seeing the video and following up with intensive investigation, we found multiple weapons in the truck and 3 RPG launchers along with munitions. Furthermore, 2 of the shot had on crude suicide bomb jackets. This would make capuring them alive without costing more lives impossible."

How do you like that?

glad im not as stupid as you

Sources please?

09.03.2004 18:01

I can't find any mention of a Gen. Ralph E. Beilstien of the US Army on the internet, let alone that quote you're citing. Can you provide a link documenting it? Or are you just making it up?

Jon

computer commados

12.03.2004 17:04

So the internet is the "gospel" huh? If it said on the net it is true. If you can't find it on the net, it is not true....

The net is a great invention but it has also been the source of millions of false claims, reports and stories.

I belive everything on the net!

So, you made it up. Thought so.

12.03.2004 19:57

So where did you hear this evidence, which contradicts the evidence cited in the article? On TV? Did you read it in a magazine? Did "Gen. Ralph E. Beilstien" tell it to you himself over a beer? Are we supposed to just take your word for it?

General Ralph E. Fictitious

ARM CHAIR VIEWING.........

13.03.2004 17:46

THIS MAKES GREAT ARM CHAIR VIEWING, JUST A SHAME MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE MADE COMMENTS DONT KNOW WHAT ITS LIKE TO BE THERE AND HAVE THAT OPTION TO SHOOT OR NOT! ITS NOT AN OPTION WHICH YOU CAN DECIDE OVER 3 MONTHS! ITS INSTINCTIVE, ITS IMMEDIATE, ITS NOW. THERE ARE QUESTIONS WHICH WE ARE TAUGHT TO RUN THROUGH OUR HEADS IN A SPLIT SECOND, THE 'SO WHATS?' AND 'WHAT IFS?'.
THESE CREWS WENT THROUGH THESE QUESTIONS AND ESTIMATES, THERE CONCLUSION IS CLEAR TO SEE. HOWEVER IT IS ONLY THE COMMANDER WHO MAKES THIS CALL, THE COMMANDER IN THE APACHE LONGBOW COMMAND HELI IS THE COMMANDER TELLING HIS SUB-COMDS TO FIRE OR NOT.
THE SO WHAT AND WHAT IF QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED. IT TAKES FRIENDLY DEATHS AND CASUALTIES TO UNDERSTAND THESE, AND THEY KNOW EXCATLY WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF THEY DONT ENGAGE IN TIME, THEY GET FIRED UPON.
ANYWAY ENOUGH OF THIS SHIT, IF ONLY THE US ARMY WERE AS PROFESSIONAL AS US HM FORCES, THEY WOULD BE GOOD, BUT THEY ARE NOT INTO HAVING SKILL, JUST NUMBERS (AS CANNON FODDER). THE HIERACHY IN THE U S OF A HAVE THE FEELING OF ' JUST KEEP SENDING THEM IN, WE'VE GOT THOUSANDS LEFT!!!' WHERE AS US BRITS KNOW THE LESS WE SEND THE QUICKER IT WILL GET DEALT WITH, BUST.
OH AND AS FOR THE GERMAN SPEAKING BIT, FUCK OFF. CANNON FODDER! THATS ALL YOU WERE USED FOR, THEY SENT THE BRITISH AIRBORNE AND POLISH AIRBORNE FURTHER BEHIND ENEMY LINES THAN THE US OF A AIRBOURNE.
SEE YOU AROUND

BRITISH PARA

You're Crazy

14.03.2004 20:58

You people are crazy! Going against your own country and what it was founded upon. If you dont like what we are doing here...why don't you just move there? Im sure they would appreciate your thoughtfulness

Jim

What was your country founded upon?

15.03.2004 11:03

War crimes? General Robert Gard says a war crime was committed here. Should he move away from the US too? Who's the patriot here?

Michael

The truth about the truth

17.03.2004 16:42

Keep in mind, there are far more people that are FOR this war than against. Even the latest polls in Iraq show that the people there are overwhelmingly happy the US ousted Saddam.

Another thing is that any opposition against anything will always get the headlines. This is true with "bad news". You hardly ever will see "good news" or demonstrations that support things. This is just the way society is. So when you see a group of demonstrators against the war, that is just the minority, but they are getting the limelight, because it is the way "news" is broadcasted.

just me

Poll in Iraq

17.03.2004 18:26

Yes, they're happy that Saddam, who the US brought to power and supported, is now gone. Who wouldn't be? He was an evil bastard when you supported him, and he was an evil bastard afterwards too.

And read the whole poll: 79 percent said they have no confidence in the US-led forces now occupying Iraq, and 73 per cent have a similar lack of trust in the Coalition Provisional Authority and Paul Bremer.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_03_04_iraqsurvey.pdf

---------------
Poll: Most Iraqis distrustful of US-led coalition
( 2003-12-02 10:10) (Agencies)

The vast majority of Iraqis are deeply mistrustful of the US-led coalition that is occupying their country, even if they're happy Saddam Hussein is history, suggests the preliminary results of a major public opinion poll.

Fewer than one per cent of the 3,244 Iraqis interviewed by Oxford Research International, in conjunction with Oxford University's sociology department, bemoaned the fall of Saddam's regime after the March invasion.

But 79 per cent said they have no confidence in the US-led forces now occupying Iraq, according to a summary of the poll's findings released Monday by Oxford Research International, a private research organization.

Seventy-three per cent had a similar lack of trust in the Coalition Provisional Authority, led by Paul Bremer.

On the other hand, 70 per cent had confidence in Iraq's religious leaders, and 54 per cent in their "mukhtars" or local leaders.

Oxford Research International said its survey was "the first truly representative national study in the recent history of the country," with a total of 46 fieldworkers fanning out across Iraq for a month from mid-October.

Christopher Sahm, an Oxford University sociologist who co-ordinated the project, which used Oxford-trained Iraqi interviewers, said he was struck by the mixed feelings among Iraqis.

Whereas 42 per cent said the best thing of the past 12 months was the fall of Saddam's regime soon after the US and British invasion in March, 35 per cent said the worst thing was the war, bombings and defeat.

"There appears no obvious link between best and worst thing," Sahm said. "The very troops which liberated Iraqis from Saddam are the most mistrusted institution in Iraq today."

Other findings from the survey:

-- For the next 12 months, 36 per cent of Iraqis said they worry most about their security and the spectre of Iraq drifting into chaos or civil war. Only one per cent fret over a withdrawal of US-led forces.

-- The number-one priority for 67 per cent is restoring public security. Dealing with members of Saddam's regime was "no priority at all" for 91 per cent.

-- Ninety per cent said Iraq now needs democracy. Sixty-four per cent said a future administration cannot include a role for the Coalition Provisional Authority.

-- Fifty-four per cent disagreed with the idea of a UN transition government, although the United Nations enjoys the best confidence rating (35 per cent) of any non-Iraqi institution.

-- For all they've gone through, "people in Iraq are not particularly unhappy with their lives," the poll found, with Iraqis having a life satisfaction rating of 5.7 on a scale of one to 10. That's roughly comparable with South Africa and South Korea (6.0 each).

-- Monthly net household incomes in Iraq average 124 dollars (103.50 euros), though 22 per cent make do with 50 dollars or less.

-- Just one respondent said "dying for Islam" would be the best thing in 2004.

Oxford Research International said its results were "mainly based on simple statistics such as per centages," and that some of the findings might not stand the test of secondary analysis to be carried out in the coming weeks.

Mark

Polls?

18.03.2004 02:48

What have polls about the invasion got to do with this article? A war crime was committed here. Nothing at all to do with the rights and wrongs of the war as a whole: war crimes can be committed in "good" wars as well as "bad" ones.

Maybe ordinary Iraqi civilians would trust the US forces more, if the soldiers stopped bombing and shooting civilians all the time. Somewhere between 8,581 and 10,430 civilian deaths so far as I write this:

http://iraqbodycount.net/

Jerry L

Get Educated!!!

22.03.2004 04:50

1. America DID NOT put Saddam into power. He came into power, by his own doing, after the other leader was removed.

2. This war IS NOT about oil. America has A LOT of oil in Alaska that is easier to get. Plus, acquiring more oil from the middle east would hurt America's economy, rather than help it...why???? Because getting that oil would put a lot of American oil companies out of business. How do I know? My family owns an oil company.

3. President George Bush is a Christian. He seeks answers and help from the only one that can help.

4. President George Bush does not make ALL of the decisions for America. Many of his ideas are intercepted, voted down and changed, before anything gets done.

5. This war, the many to come, and the many that have all ready occurred, are all about GOOD fighting EVIL. Who's good and who's evil? Saddam is an evil man. He IS a weapon of mass destruction. He trajically hurt people in his country for not following his evil ways, and he did not want his evil to be confined just to Iraq. He was a threat to the people living near him and to America, and to ANY other country he wanted.

6. America DOES have many non-Christian people holding high postions in the government, making very immoral decisions. So far, America has not, in any way, declared war on another country and then claimed it to be theirs. America DOES bring democratic ideas for leadership to those countries that loose an evil ruler. America HAS brought war techniques into other countries, removing leaders who have threatened America, and/or leaders who are extremely evil, who hurt people in those countries.

7. Every single country has some member of their government/power who is evil. Those people seek immoral things and make poor decisions too.

8. The Taliban made threats against Spain...look what happened. Britian is on that list too. Yes, so is America, amongst others.

9. The Taliban is funded by evil people. The evil needs to be stopped.
If somebody broke into your home and killed your family, then left a note saying they would be back to kill more of your family...and you knew who they where, and who trained them to pick your lock and who provided them with the weapon to kill your family...would you just sit back and let them do it again?

me

"My family owns an oil company"

22.03.2004 09:52

That explains the rest of the specious lies you're pouring out in the rest of your post.

"President George Bush is a Christian. He seeks answers and help from the only one that can help."

Oh, you're talking about Jesus? Maybe you and your fellow oil-businessman Dubya should read what Jesus actually said before claiming to be one of His followers. You evil men will all be called to account when Christ returns.

Randall

These comments are sad

23.03.2004 08:13

My god. Looking at this video I must admit that it is possible that thoes guys were innocents. There are things to suggest otherwise as well. However, all of you people who are shouting "war crime" and "omg we are slaugthering innocents" just shut up. These soldiers are over there fighting against enemies that tend to dress as civilians. Those soldiers saw these guys as a threat, and killed them accordingly. I'm sure that if it was ANY of you guys over there, you would have done the exact same thing.

EVEN if it turns out that these ppl were not enemies, its not like the US government is ordering these soldiers to slaugther iraqis whenever they damn well please. We are over in iraq trying to make a difference. All of you idiots who say its for OIL are dumb, most of the US oil supply DOESNT even come from iraq, so why would we waste lives and money to take down saddam? o yea, because he was a ruthless dictator who was slaughtering 180 of his own people on average each damn week (or was it day? cant remember). Any of you who think that we are in iraq because of 9/11 are dumb. 9/11 has NOTHING to do with it. We are there because there was reason to believe that saddam had WOMD (weapons of mass destruction). Even if we dont find any, he still violated UN resolutions for weapons inspections so that's enough cause for us to take action. Think about it, if you didn't have any weapons, then why would you so steadfastly refuse inspectors to come through?

Some people have already said it "better them than us". If these ppl that got killed were innocent, then yea thats sad. but if the soldiers felt that they were a threat, then im sorry. any one of us would protect our own lives if we felt threatened would we?

D.

Easy solution to your problem

23.03.2004 08:57

Get your troops out now. They have no right to be there. They went in based on a lie. Then they won't have a problem with Iraqi resistance dressed as civilians. And since you're so worried about enforcing UN resolutions, you can start enforcing UN resolutions on Israel, and the US can start complying with UN resolutions on bioweapons, landmines, etc.

The USA re-instated full diplomatic ties with the Saddam regime on the same day that the UN report about his slaughter came out, and has now invaded Iraq illegally, even after the UN Security Council voted against it. Do you really expect us to believe you went in to uphold the will of the UN?

John

Everyone hates the U.S.

24.03.2004 12:58

I'm still here in Iraq and still have offer the open invitation to anyone who wants to come over and see how this place is. Come on over and meet some native Iraqi's, come on over and talk with the folks who lost sons, snagged by Saddam's goons and never seen again. Talk to the former soldiers under Saddam who were punished for only wanting to see their families. Come over and experience what this place is and hear first hand how it was and see the changes that are taking place even through the mortar and rocket attacks.

My time over here has further reinforced my love for the U.S. and it's friends like Britain. Some of you folks do have great memories of how Saddam came to power. . .woo what a hayday that was and we're sure glad you keep bringing that up. At the time we backed him there wasn't really a better choice. . .we can't do anything about that now except get reminded of it by others. In following their logic though we were responsible for him being in power, he did bad things and we stepped up to fix the problem. . .the folks who comment otherwise would have us just say woops and move on.

Bill

Clarification

25.03.2004 21:03

You're talking about how glad Iraqi people are that Saddam's gone. Of course they are, but gangsters don't deserve gratitude for blowing away rival gangsters. Stop expecting thanks and praise.

"we're sure glad you keep bringing that up."

Rumsfeld, the man in the photo above, is still in charge of Iraq policy. He put Saddam there. He did business with Saddam, ignored condemnation by the UN and many countries, encouraged him to attack his neigbors and his own people, and allowed US companies to supply him with bioweapons and other WMD. What the fuck do you expect us to do? Forget all about it, forgive Rumsfeld, "move on"? The man in charge of your army's a fucking criminal, and deserves to rot in jail.

"At the time we backed him there wasn't really a better choice. . .we can't do anything about that now except get reminded of it by others."

Of course there was a better choice. Quit buddying up with evil murderers like Saddam, Bin Laden, Dostum, Ismail Khan, Suharto, Pinochet, Noriega, Stroessner, the Saudi royal family, Karimov, etc. etc. Quit trying to run the planet. Stay home. Mind your own fucking business for a change, and leave the rest of us alone.

L. Metzger

B.S.

27.03.2004 16:04

I worked as an undercover security gaurd for 5 years , and that is the exact body language people use when they are up to no good. This was a justified killing.

chris

Walmart Wisdom

29.03.2004 02:01

Oh great. You worked as a plainclothes rent-a-cop in fucking Walmart. That should qualify you to determine who lives and who dies.

He did look pretty suspicious, lying there on the ground, wounded and all. Maybe he's contemplating shoplifting something from aisle 6. No wonder they had to shred him with a fucking 30mm cannon from a mile away. Thanks for your input, Corporal K-Mart.

Tony M

War is War

02.04.2004 20:28

This Apache could be a very far distance and if its a lonbow has even more technology to make it quite--These guys deserved what they got--You dont just walk around in the middle of the night during an invasion into your country--I dont give a crap if this is a farmer making a living--Civilians have smarts enought to stay inside. These guys were idiots and deserved to die farmers or not--U.S. firepower is awesome--this is why people are interested in this video. That good they didnt shoot our boys down with a stinger or something--be happy about that--And maybe dont go outside if you know apaches are in the area you think??? Dummies!!

Trippster

Bullshit

03.04.2004 01:10

War is brutal, confusing, and misunderstood by all who observe. Unless you are in the cockpit, in the exact situation you will never know what took place or why. So quit looking for a bullshit cause and enjoy the freedom the soldiers of our society or provide to us. And if you're in Iraq, don't fuck around at night while there are Apaches patroling!!

Anti-bullshit

Farmers,yea,thats it.

03.04.2004 15:11

Give me a break,just farmers?Oh,O.K.Pull youre frikin heads out.
Mess with the best,die like the rest.If we wanted to,we could take the whole middle east out,and you know it.We could start by flying over Mecca with 20,000 pounds of pigs blood.Then what? What are you sorry sand rags going to do about it.

David
mail e-mail: hikerdave1@yahoo.com

American cowards

04.04.2004 04:14

Just to show you how cowards these americans can be... Here's the answer I received from an american following my comments on this website (a few months ago, which prove how retarded they can be) P.S. If you want to send unsollicited e-mails to this guy/girl like he/she did to me, you can do so by writing to

Hockeynance@aol.com Seems like they don't like people with an opinion and that they believe all the lies that come from their government. Wonder why the elected such a moron now??? I don't.

----- Original Message -----
From:

Hockeynance@aol.com
To:

darknightcrow@hotmail.com
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 10:57 AM
Subject: (no subject)

Lets see.Hum,lets start with something easy,1 + 1 = 2 can you understand that?
Good. Now, lets try,2 + 2= 4 very good.The reason we are in Iraq you moron is because they invaded a neighboring country,we went in and kiked their ass out.Are you with me so far. Good.They agreed to a seace fire,and 17 U.N. resolutions,(got it so far) They broke the resolutions,and,the seace fire by shooting at american aircraft in the no fly zone.(got it,ya catching on? Very Good!)Mass murder,torture chambers,rape rooms,is the picture coming into vocus yet.Get a clue you frikin retard.

And here's my answer... ;o)

You no name/nickname coward,

Just as american as I imagined... And this american thinks that his maths skills can impress me ;o) No seriously... You're just as I expected. Your "private" answer to my public message is just a proof of your inferiority. You tried to insult me (which I didn't) and tried to convince me with your lame "proofs"... accusing everybody of doing what americans always do (the U.N rules are broken by americans 90% of the time) No, seriously... I think you should revise everything... Let's try to remove the words "moron", "stupid" and "retard" from your vocabulary, because it only gives everybody a good reason to kick your ass (as you so proudly said in your e-mail)... which happened... and which will happen again if you don't change your attitude... Actually, I think it will happen again after reading such an e-mail because it proves that you will keep on attacking people without any valid reason. The only thing you proved with your e-mail is that you didn't learn anything from what happened.

Oh, just by the way... Hitler had arguments that I would compare to yours... He used to say that jewish people used to rape, kill and torture everybody...

Before saying everybody is a moron... try to elect someone who isn't one. :o)

Yours truly...

P.S. Go see the forum... It might be interresting... :o)

Crow
mail e-mail: darknightcrow@hotmail.com

In addition to my last comment...

05.04.2004 01:45

Just a quick question relatively to my last message, the one including the american's insults. What was that for anyway? Was he trying to prove anything? No, as most americans do... They just say things without any valid arguments and think that their "wisdom" (By the way, this IS irony) will explain and justify everything without any kind of proof... Just like their president who repeat the word "evil" over and over again without even knowing the meaning of this word. A poor coutry of brain-washed citizens... THAT is my definition of the USA... Even more brain-washed than the Iraqi people...

And overall... when they insult you, they don't even give a valid e-mail address so you can give your comments afterwards... THAT is coward...

Crow

To: Randall

06.04.2004 04:16

Randall,

I feel pity for you thinking what I wrote was a lie. Apparently you forgot to read the title of my comment: "Get Educated." There is no shame in what my parents do, because they are very Christian people. My father was given a gift of knowledge about Geology, so he used it to find oil in the United States. When he is not working that job, he is doing ministries in prisons in America, or teaching CBS classes (Christian Bible Study), or writing a lesson plan for Bible School, or preparing a Sermon for his church... He plans on leaving his business soon to become a missionary and HELP THE HELPLESS.
My family and I are looking forward to the day that we have to face God. Just because we live in America and own an oil company does not mean that we agree with ALL people in our government. George Bush DOES NOT make all of the decisions for America. He is not the one to blame for this war, evil is. What is happening may very well be apart of God's plan. Why? I do not know. Ask God yourself.

Will all of you people stop complaining about what is happening and what other people are doing, and start PRAYING for help...and not just for others, but also for yourself.

Randall, do not judge my family or me, you do not know us. We are trying, with all of our might, to be good and honest; yet we still sin. And do not judge America, because you do not know everybody residing in the country. Judge yourself. Where are you in this journey through life? What have you done to save others? How can you use your gifts and talents to be a better person; kind and forgiving?

Feel free to respond, but I do not plan on returning to this website. It is depressing and full of hate. And frankly, I do not want to subject myself to the rude remarks made by the confused souls of some people who are lost in this life. I have already prayed for you Randall, and I will continue to pray for you and others here, that we all refrain from hate and anger, and re-direct that energy towards good actions.

me

Sickening hypocrisy

06.04.2004 08:00

What a gentle, pious pose you now strike. But God sees through the religious veneer of the Pharisee. Do you think that missionary work and Bible classes will somehow cancel out the ongoing evil that you advocate and support?

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said:

"21 Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"
23 And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

While you're praying for me, will you also pray for the 10,000 Iraqi civilian dead, killed by the hate and anger of the USA?

http://www.iraqbodycount.net

You write:
"George Bush DOES NOT make all of the decisions for America. He is not the one to blame for this war, evil is. What is happening may very well be apart of God's plan. Why? I do not know."

"Evil" is to blame for the war? Did "evil" drop the cluster bombs on civilian areas? Did "evil" falsify evidence, lie to the Congress, lie to the UN, lie to the American people on TV, to tie Sadaam to September 11, and justify the invasion that Bush's cabinet have been planning out of office since 1997? Did "evil" force Rumsfeld to restore diplomatic relations with Saddam's regime on the day the UN report came about his nerve-gassing his own people? Did "evil" ship the bioweapons from the US to Saddam's labs? Did "evil" force the US rep at the UN to veto votes against Saddam repeatedly while he was attacking Iran, or was it the US?

So none of these actions were the faults of individuals, it was "evil" that did it. How very convenient for you. It may ease your conscience now to say that no-one is reponsible for the acts of butchery perpetrated by the US in the invasion, but don't bother justifying yourself to me pal, cause I'm not the one who'll be judging you. And your willful ignorance today will not help you when the time comes.

Randall

War Crimes???

07.04.2004 19:37

Wouldn't you rather be having a discussion about an apache that mistakenly fired on innocent farmers than the apache that was shot down by an RPG killing Americans. During war you make decisions and you are never sure if it is the right one. To those Apache pilots, thank you, I was on the ground in Iraq and appreciated the fact that we had air superiority. Collateral Damage happens...get over it.

Sgt

Just one point of view

08.04.2004 00:23

I am glad that we are discussing whether or not the pilots should have shot instead of talking about the tragedy that occurred when the pilots hesitated, waiting to make a choice of whether to shoot or not. Sorry to say, but in combat you never know whether your decision was the right one or not. You use your training and the information that you have, and you formulate a plan that would have the greatest sucess rate while exposing your Marines/Airmen/Soliders/Sailors to the least amount of danger. Those pilots saw a target of opprotunity, used their best judgement, and decided that this target needed to be eliminated. If the pilots of that helicopter are reading, I would like to say thank you. It was nice being on the ground over there and knowing that we had air superiority. What that means to those of you who are not in the military is that if we get in a battle that is more than we can handle, all we have to do is on the radio. They say Roger, and the situation is over. Period. Another example of air superiority is the fact that we can send helicopter, airplanes, and jets, instead of risking thousands of brothers, sons, sisters, daughters, husbands and/or wives to eliminate a single hostile enemy. This video, while disturbing to some, is proof of an incident that SAVED LIVES. If the pilots were wrong and those were really farmers. Oh well, collateral damage happens deal with it, this isn't a boy scout jam-bery.

-Semper Fi

Sgt USMC

1984, twenty years on

10.04.2004 20:56

"This video, while disturbing to some, is proof of an incident that SAVED LIVES."

There you have it: KILLING SAVES LIVES. Just the latest "NewSpeak", from our Big Brother in the USA.

And rememember: "we have always been at war with Oceania".

Dave

Proud to be American

13.04.2004 16:43

I just want to say to whoever wrote this article that it is not your fault that you feel this way. You have been brainwashed by the same people who want to hug trees on the weekends. I have never been in the military and do not know the half of what these men and women go through to give you the freedoms that you take for granted, but i do know that your way of thinking is what is going to kill this country one day. Everytime someone says something negative about our soldiers and the decisions they make puts a little doubt in them and their abilities. Instead we need to back them up on what they do and show them we really appreciate what they do for us everyday. You need to find a soldier in your town and buy him/her lunch and let them know you are proud that they are defending this country instead of crying about the injustices of war. Come on really if your enemy cheats at the "rules" then they get what they deserve at the expense of innocent lives. If any soldiers are reading this if you are eve in houston email me and ill do my best to let you know i support you. We here in Texas don't let good deeds go unnoticed.

Mark
mail e-mail: Basball123@aol.com

Think about this...

13.04.2004 20:51

Funny how alot of you guys are hammering the United States as being the evil country. It's funny that the United States is the country that most people are trying to get into for work. It's funny that the United States is the country that most people try to get into for medical attention. It's funny that the United States is the country that most people are trying to get into period.

The United States has NBA, NFL, MLB, NASCAR, NHRA, PGA, PBA, etc. The United States has the best movies and actors. The United States has the best recreational areas to go fishing and camping. I can go on for hours.

While things may not be perfect and there are some decisions that I personally may not agree with, the United States is still the most preferred country to live in. For some reason, I don't notice many refugees trying to get into Iraq, Iran, China, Russia, France, Spain, Mexico....

There is a reason why we have our freedoms and abilities to live a life that other countries wish they could!

And, for the Unitest States supporters, for every one that opposes the US, there are 10 times that many that are in support! Unfortunately, it is easier to report on the smaller numbers.

read enough

Randall

13.04.2004 20:57

Did evil posses WMD?
Did evil account for these WMD that he said he destroyed?
Did evil kick out the UN when they wanted to inspect?
Did evil posion his own people?
Did evil break the arm of his own son while he was in the hospital?
Did evil amputate 5 shop owner's arms as a "scare" technique blaming them for the collapse of the economy? Incidentally, those 5 are here in Houston to get prostetics fitted, FREE OF CHARGE from who???? Evil US right?
Did evil run a regime based on terror?

Now for the new evil:
Is evil blatently executing soldiers?
Is evil committing terroristic acts on thier own people?
Is evil resorting to dressing as civilians to commit terrorism?
Is evil kidnapping civilians who are trying to rebuild the country?
Is evil firing from supposedly sacred mosques?

Who is evil here?

Don't give me this evil US Bullshit!

Evil replies

Thanks for clearing that up

13.04.2004 20:58

I see. General Robert Gard, who watched this video carefully, and declared it evidence of a war crime, is obviously "brainwashed by treehuggers".

And how can anyone say that a war crime has been committed here, since the USA has NASCAR, NBA, and great fishing and camping.

You people have a fucking huge wakeup call coming.

Nathan

Dave you are an idiot

13.04.2004 21:01

This is war isn't it? When you see someone with weapons, you shoot them! Or, do you suggest that we hand them a basket of flowers and ask them to politely put down your weapons and have some tea....

Gees o freakin mighty...

hoping to never be on your side

Evil

13.04.2004 21:11

Yes, evil possesses WMD: the USA is the only country to have ever used nuclear weapons in war, used them on civilian targets, refuses to sign treaties banning bioweapons, sold bioweapons to Saddam, refuses to sign treaties banning landmines, refuses to stop using uranium weapons, etc.

Did evil account for these WMD? No, the evil US refuse to let inspectors in.

Did evil kick out the UN when they wanted to inspect? Yes, the evil bastards in the White house pulled the inspectors out, then later claimed Saddam kicked them out.

Did evil poison its own people? Yes, the USA used its own soldiers as guinea pigs to test bioweapons and nukes.

Did evil break the arm of his own son while he was in the hospital? No, I don't recollect Bush ever doing that.

Did the evil US rain missiles and cluster bombs down on cities full of civilians as a "shock and awe" technique, blaming Saddam for the collapse of the economy afterwards? Yes.

Incidentally, those 5 in Houston are getting prosthetics fitted, FREE OF CHARGE from who???? The evil US who blew them off in the first place, and can't manage to run the hospitals in Iraq now that the country has been destroyed. How grateful the victims must be.

Did evil run a regime based on terror? Yes, backed up all the way by the USA, until he stopped obeying orders.

Now for the new evil: Is the evil US blatantly executing soldiers? Yes, the US is doing that. And so is the UK. Thanks for noticing.

Is the evil US committing terroristic acts on their own people? No, they rented Bin Laden to do that: much cheaper, and easier to cover up. But earlier plans for committing terrorism against their own people are well documented, in the Northwoods Memo and elsewhere.

Is evil resorting to dressing as civilians to commit terrorism? The US hasn't had to do that on the battlefield for a long time, not since the Revolutionary War. But the CIA have never stopped dressing up as civilians and committing terrorism.

Is evil kidnapping civilians who are trying to rebuild the country? No, it's shooting the ones who haven't been bombed with uranium shells and cluster bombs.

Is evil bombing sacred mosques? Yes, and they have promised to go on bombing them.

Who is evil here? The facts speak for themselves.

Randall

General Robert Gard must also be an idiot

13.04.2004 21:15

This is the US army isn't it? When you see someone with something, a mile away, you shred them with 30mm cannons!

Or, do you suggest that we actually establish that it's a weapon first... Gees o freakin mighty...

Jarhead Moron

Hit'im Again

14.04.2004 22:28

This is what happens when the US is put in a position of war. Make no mistake, the US is a war machine bent on the protection of its population at any cost anywhere we feel is a threat. We want peace in the world and for everyone. That is almost a lost cause but we still hope. When this country feels threatened the US is all about death to evil doers. Sadom's and his like are no longer tolerated in a world this small. We will all get along or die. We have no videos of the folks being murdered in the plane over Lockerby?. There is no videos of the folks dieing in the Twin Towers. The killing video is war and the hard souls who end up fighting it. It sounds like those guys in the chopper don't care but if the world thinks that they won't pay a personal price for that then it has learned nothing over the 1000's of wars fought. When Iraq is settled and the middle east begings to form an Arab nation. Then Europe better watch out! It is going to be a day of reality when the Arab missiles start flying in on Spain and France and they have cut the ties with the US. With out us Europe will be at the mercy of an Arab nation. It is then the world will see the real terror coming on a pale horse and his name was "DEATH".

rich

Nothing wrong with that attack

17.04.2004 17:08

The main question is whether those guys that were killed were innocent civilians or insurgents. Since we don't know the answer to that question, and nor did the pilots, it is better to have erred on the side of caution. I don't see anything wrong with what they did. There were no ground troops in the area, so they had to take them out while they had the chance.

Roger

Erring on the side of murder

18.04.2004 11:50

"Since we don't know the answer to that question, and nor did the pilots, it is better to have erred on the side of caution."

You mean erring on the side of killing. Arresting them would have been caution. Killing someone you're not sure might or might not be a threat isn't caution, it's a war crime.

Joe

Iraqi's life is not life. Good. Very Good

22.04.2004 08:56

For those who said the current war in Iraq is meant to hunt down terrorists, pay back time for Sept 11, or Saddam ploted all attacks etc., I said, you got a phantom enemy for US, the so call democracy world, tried so hard to catch, attack, kill, and end up with more dead Americans. Some funny guy up there said about those who got killed in Sept 11, and those soldiers who lost their lifes in Iraq, all their familiy members' heart are bleeding blah blah blah... Huh, Iraqis don't have family, Iraqis have no feeling, or, to protect the US, Iraqi NEED TO BE KILLED! Is that your logic? Good. Just keep your head down in your HOLE viewing the whole world, and make judgements from your one sided bias idiotic thinking. When terrorists hit US, it's unfogivable, killing of inoccent lifes, act of cowardace. When US hit civilians, it's always 'collateral damage' huh??? Plain stupidity!!!

Call me US hatter if you want

Anti American Bastard!

23.04.2004 04:05

You should be on the ground there as well, so that you could have been shot straight to hell as well... You are an ASSHOLE... You know nothing about war! Some innocents will die on both sides! Get your head out of your ass! Jerkoff!!!
An American Citizen

Steve

go apache jocks!!!!!!

24.04.2004 00:51

i love to hear europeans whining about the American military.why don't you bitch and moan about the hundreds of thousands of germans we wacked so you inept sissies can still be free to be spineless? are Americans arrogant? you bet your EU ass we are,we've earned it.your lands are free because of the dead Americans buried beneath them.
mark these words peaceniks-the goal of islam is to destroy to judeo-christian way of life.the apache video shows three less mohammedans for my children to worry about.

Proud American

The Truth on the Object being thrown

26.04.2004 01:02

The object was a dragonov (SVD) rifle, with magazine, wrapped in a white plastic woven sack.

Truth Teller

Rifle evidence

26.04.2004 13:18

Truth Teller, that's interesting about the rifle. Can you please post again to let us know where you heard this? I've been following the story off and on, and would like to know if an enquiry has been carried out yet.

spanner

Analysis from 5000km away is as accurate as the CIA

27.04.2004 14:19

Your ability to analyze this gun video is about as dumbfounding as the CIA's. One of the most important tools that a soldier in the battlefield has is that he is there, and you (or any other analyst) is not. Analyze this:
1. How long was the Apache on station?
2. What other units were on the ground?
3. What is the current situation?
4. How can you tell night/dat from the video?
5. How can you tell a plow from this video? I can't and I'm a former combat officer!

So on and so forth. BTW, An Apache heard if it is downwind or a battle is in progress
And course you want to hide an RPG launcher...so that you can use it again.

The CIA turned desert into WMD's and you turned a combat video into.....idiotic, jingoistic, euro-centric stupidity. Do you work for the CIA's Directorate of Analysis? Because your analysis is absolutely worthless.

Javier
mail e-mail: jarroyolaw@rocketmail.com

FUD about analysis

27.04.2004 15:27

General Robert Gard disagrees with you, as noted above. I suggest you phone him up to explain to him how his conclusions must have been based on idiotic, jingoistic, euro-centric stupidity.

And the time of the incident isn't that hard to work out. The time indicator on the HUD reads 16:25, or 4:25PM. The clock is set to zulu time (GMT), and Baghdad is 3 hours ahead of GMT, so the actual time is 7:25PM.

D. Richardson

Midnight Farmers

27.04.2004 17:26

What the hell are these so-called farmers doing ploughing a field in the middle of the night, in the middle of a war zone. Come on people!!

Rob

WTF

30.04.2004 15:41

I think we are taking this all a little bit seriously, so 3 people died. So what they where going to die anyway, whether it be a bullet, famine, American greed, family, Illness or old age the rule is everyone dies. These guys may have been a treat to the Americans, maybe not. We were not the guys behind the telescope lens looking at these guys; we were not in the moment. The pressure was on for these guys. They may have killed but killing some always carries guilt which will probably take 5 year off these Americans lives. So in some way the dead kill the living. We can get angry at the Americans but their is blood on all our hand, we may protest about these poor chaps but when was the last time the majority of us actually stop bitch and complaining and actually did some real sacrifice. Mate before anyone writes some human rights letter to the UN or even on this site, think about your life. Whatever you've been eating today or drinking comes wrapped in so form of suppression on another’s life. You drink cola which is from some poor south American bastard sugar farm earning pittance from his sale because we want two cola's for the price of one. The farmer suppress his bitch of a wife by getting her to do what he believes is necessary to keep the family alive. You then drink your cola thinking are poor guy in Iraq on your latest spec pc which you bought from HP which got most of the far east (not NY or Washington, Indonesia and china) working in Sh!t conditions all hours of the day at such low wages that they cant live like normal families, well at least not like us rich assh0les. Mothers never see the children they bare from their womb and fathers never get the chance to beat the crap out of their kids. We’re all happy with the new purchase which cost an absolute low dollar rate. But the cost in human life to get it to the store is more than what can be qualified. Our fathers may be killers but they sure have raised a bunch of selfish bastards. We all think that they are jealous of our wealth where we are the ones that are jealous of there cheap resources. We promote freedom like it something that cost nothing. Freedom costs souls and character. We think we are free because we where born in a “free country”, unless you break from the norms and sacrifice you comforts your not free you’re a slave. I’ve been a slave for 26 year and am finding it hard to break free. Stop bitching start sacrificing oneself.

Allah agbuddy

Bleeding heart liberals

01.05.2004 09:38

Oh God, you people make me sick, wake the fuck up, you have no idea what happened, and as the complete ignoramuses you are, you make pathetic comment on a dramatic end to a long story.

muslims are the free worlds enemy, constraints put upon the free world is being taken advantage of by our enemy, thank god we have America.

I am neither American or British.

Richard

Taking war crimes seriously

01.05.2004 11:28

Not sure just what the previous poster is trying to say here: we shouldn't act to expose war crimes, because terrible things are going on all around the world? We should just "move on"? How about the majority of people around the world who don't use the latest PC, don't buy sweatshop goods, don't drive a car, and try to live sustainably and justly. Do they earn the right in your eyes to criticise soldiers for committing the war crime of shooting a wounded man from a mile away, when there was no proof of a threat?

Attitudes like the one above are responsible for sick bastards like Bush and Blair getting to power. "Ah fuck it, there's already so much evil going on, I won't bother to do a single fucking thing.", that's what you're saying.

Edmund Burke said: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good
men to do nothing."

Tom

Bleeding heart liberals

01.05.2004 13:19

Oh God, you liberals make me sick, wake the f**k up, you have no idea what happened, and as the complete ignoramuses you are, you make pathetic comment on a dramatic end to a long story.

Some of the “technical” comment/conclusions are preposterous in the extreme, clearly made by children, or those who wish not to see the reality of the world we live in, or the enemy we face.

muslims have proved themselves to be the free worlds enemy, constraints put upon the free world, is being used against us, and we are being taken advantage of, by our enemy, who have no such constraints, thank god we have a Country with some balls, keep it up America.

I am neither American nor British.

Richard

OH well!

03.05.2004 13:05

In short who cares, they where iraqis up to no good. The comments made on the original story about the weapon laid down, could be many weapons not just an RPG, He could have been the lucky soldier to get the only AA missile. Knowing they are being watched would make one discard a weapon rather quickly like they did. We all know iraqis are not very intelligent by the way they act in protests an blow eachother up more that their supposed occupying enemy...WAR crime...think not. Be nice to see an un biased site reporting political events...everyone always sticks in their own crappy opinion instead of reporting facts... look at the guys footware carrying the weapon. look military too me!

Mark
mail e-mail: nuttynut@ntlworld.com

Red Eye

03.05.2004 14:02

You can see its a redeye, surface to air missle. The cap is unscrewed which means its ready to be fired, pause the video you can see the missle in the tube and the blast cap unscrewed.

I cant believe how dumb people are saying its a farm tool and people looking for anything to put the conspiracy theory on the us. The footage makes me sick and things like that should not be showed to the public.

Any lose of life is a terrible thing and its sad people dont learn how bad war is from thier elders

will

Suffering...at its' best

03.05.2004 15:21

Ithink it's WRONG these people were killed this way when there are so many other ways we could have made them die in a sloweer and more painful fashion. What a waste of hgelicopter fule. Should have dragged them dehind a Humvey withb a heavy nylon rope...which is less edxpensive and works better.

David c. Michigan
mail e-mail: chifane@yahoo.com

Just Deserts

03.05.2004 15:46

I hope Americans everywhere get what they deserve.

Ian Klauss
mail e-mail: phal6970@bigpond.net.au

Not murder just Standard Operation Procedure

04.05.2004 07:21

Hi all,

Passionate debate about what little we know.

I did observe one thing that is really important to me
on the credibility of these soldiers.

It was pragmatic discourse with decisions based upon the
hostile's actions. Otherwise, if it was a "war crime"
they would have been just shot without observation of who or
what they were doing. Remember, these guys don't wear uniforms!!!

It is "war" and unfortunately no time for juries to decide
guilt. So, as the audio dictates there were step by step
decisions made based upon what was observed and what the hostiles
did. It did look very suspicious and none of them looke very surprised
when the first got shot. One hurried and the other hit the deck. That
looks like hostiles to me, not innocent farmers!

Having said all that, I would like to add: It is a shocking video with
reality check of what war is about. Us monday quarterbacks maybe
should shutup more and listen rather than judge!

Rob

Rob

War crimes and deliberate action

04.05.2004 08:43

'Otherwise, if it was a "war crime" they would have been just shot without observation of who or what they were doing.'

No, war crimes can be committed deliberately and with full foreknowledge, or as snap decisions. The fact the pilots took step by step decisions and obeyed an order doesn't change the fact that they deliberately and knowingly shot the wounded man on the ground. That's what General Gard is referring to when he says that a war crime appears to have taken place.

Jon

usa=trigger happy

04.05.2004 09:59

You only have to look at the USA's record of hitting the wrong targets. How many British military personnel have been killed in so-called 'friendly' fire incidents involving US aircraft/missile systems? Those cowboys just love shooting. Enough said.

Spen

Got more?

05.05.2004 07:31

Got any more of these the guys at work love it. I am really glad its not any of you people out there protecting me or my family.

John Denny

Sickening Comments

06.05.2004 13:07

As i have read through these posts i was sickened. First by the blind stupid comments of people who seem to think these people are innocent and that one of them is a girl "because of the way she runs" I am a video analyst and have spent a few hours on this video..

Seriously first off, the guys are very suspicious, looking around, checking no one sees them before they run into the fields. You can see from this 100% they do not know the helicopter is there, the apache can fire its cannon at up to 2km so it could be a way off.

Secondly they place the two objects in the field as though they are incriminating, this is sure, they run up, drop them and run away, running back to check if they are visible. From the grainy pictures you can see the one with the smaller object (grenades, rockets for the launcher?) places it in one of the ruts of the already plowed field. Why so carefully hide it if its just a farming tool?

Finally when the tractor drives up it stops when it reaches the long implement (which is about the size of a shoulder launch anti aircraft tube)
Now im not 100% sure about this but it looks to me like the 2nd guy to die sees or hears the helecopter, watch how he motions the tractor driver out and then hurries round the side of the tractor. You can tell when the people are facing the towards the chopper as the hotter whiter part of their faces show. The tractor driver gets up, glances over, walks across the field, glances over. Coincidence? The 2nd man is already unwrapping the object under the tractor. Now at this point there is no doubt he sees the first man die. Its brutal to say, but parts fly near him and the noise would be loud. He continues, now in a panicky manner to unwrap the bundle... Farming equipment? He didnt notice the other man die. Watch the debris, think about it.

The only problem i have with this video is the final man to die, he does nothing, but he was there, he was aiding them. He does come out from under the van, from the video its impossible to tell why, to look for the helecopter? To try to get a pot shot? Is he waving his surrender?

One thing i would say is lives have been saved by this action of that there is no doubt, using rocket launchers in built up areas causes civilian deaths and military casualties. The soldiers/terrorists killed here have voulenteered, they have no government, they are killing for personal gain, their own ideals. The soldiers they are fighting and innocents havent chosen to fight. They (the 3 in the video) more then any other person killed in iraq are responsible for their own plight.

My second point which sickened me more is the comments of Americans here stating British would be speaking german if it wasnt for them. Britain fought more of the war then america. The British air force defeated hitlers airforce. Canadians, Indians, Free french, italians, polish, australians, africans and many more countries fought for longer then the americans, and fought following d-day. DO NOT SITE THE AMERICANS AS SAVING EUROPE JUST BECAUSE YOUR FILMS SHOW ONLY AMERICANS FIGHTING. If it were not for the other countries then america would be talking german as you put it. If first Europe had rolled over, america would never have stood alone against germany. America got fat from selling europe arms while it waited for the germans to weaken, most americans were too self centered to want to get involved. Only by Britain taking the attacks in the very heart of our cities were you able to build tanks and planes safely ready for when you would get involved...

Finally if we are to say who saved who on the amount they did as so many of you like to state, then if not for Russia we would all be dead. As the russians took on the greatest amount of german soldiers. Destroyed the most aircraft and tanks and lost the most soldiers throughout the war... Learn your history before posting your ignorant comments.

To those americans who do not agree with the statements of those who class themselves as sole saviours of europe i apologise.

Dominico

Un-american activities

07.05.2004 08:15

Liberty Leash

Freedom Hood

American means to kill 300.000 Iraqi conscripts in 1993 to let Hussein finally in power
American means to betray Shiites to Hussein and back up the abolition with result of 200.000 killed Shiites in 1993
American means to kill over 1.000.000 Iraqis in concequence of a twelve year embargo
American means to kill over 100.000 Afghans in conequence illegal raid
American means to jail thirteen year old kids as 'Terrorists' in Guantanamo
American means to jail and torture foreigners in Guantanamo without any accusation and law
American means to lie to whole world and UNO to start a raid on Iraq based on fictional threats
American means to disregard international law
American means to disregard preventive International Court of Justice to hedge future American War crimes
American means to kill over 60.000 Iraqi conscripts in the raid in 2003 founded on lies about WMD
American means to kill over 15.000 Iraqi civilians to gain access to oil
American means to raze a nation to the ground

and American means to torture and assassinate people as sub human beings "They're all animals" because they don't celebrate their murder as deliverer

I am proud to be un-American

Dave

US RECORD ON PUNISHING ITS SERVICEMEN

07.05.2004 14:03

The US Government has a very poor record when it comes to punishing its servicemen so I don’t think they will ever act on this incident, even if it is proved that these victims were innocent farmers murdered in their field.

Although Lt Calley (excuse the spelling in case I got it wrong) was tried and convicted of a massacre of 400 civilians in Mai-Lai in Vietnam, he was pardoned and never spent a single day in prison.

The captain of the US Warship that shot down an Iranian Airbus airliner in the Persian Gulf was never reprimanded. A commission even concluded that he acted well based on the information he had at his disposal. When in doubt about the security of Americans, shoot at innocent foreign people if necessary is the message.

Another US warship shot at and hit a Turk warship during exercises. No reprimand.

A US Navy A6 Intruder crew took their aircraft on an unauthorised joy ride in an Italian valley a few years ago and flew through and severed the cable of a cable car with over 80 people on board, who all fell to their death. The first thing the pilot did after landing was to remove and destroy the videotape of his flight that contained images of the whole incident. He was flown to the States and was not convicted of any crime.

More recently, a couple of US F-16 pilots eager to kill anyone they could find claimed that Canadian troops training at night with small arms had fired at them while they were passing overhead at 25000 feet and dropped, without authorization, a 250 lbs bomb on the Canadians, killing four. No prison here either. Had the victims been friendly Afghan troops, we would not have even heard of the incident.

These are just a few incidents I heard I can think of but there must be many more. The entire World knows that American troops can do what the very well want and get away with it, or at the very most risk a dishonourable discharge.

A dishonourable discharge for a massacring 400 unarmed old men, women and children. Dont expect any more for these Apache pilots or for the prison guards as a matter of fact.

Just an observer

THAT'S WHY

08.05.2004 22:43

By the occasion of the 2001 twin towers terrorist attack, people all around the world , but mostly in the U.S., asked: Why? Why us? That's why.

Luiz Cunha
mail e-mail: lleitaodacunha@aol.com

Removing clearly identified terrorists is NOT a war crime

10.05.2004 11:37

I can understand some confusion for those who only viewed the short mpeg. They would not have seen the "farmers" drive up and loiter awhile before grabbing the rocket launcher and legging it for a safe stash in the field.

Clearly visible, checked and confirmed at least three times. I would say they were doing a kindness to that last fella and helping to re-fertilise the soil at the same time.

south@mpton

Apache killing

12.05.2004 23:57

Iam proud that our boys are doing a good job in Irag. This video shows iraguis doing what there not supposed to be doing so they pay with their lives. Remember we only killed stupid iraguis who think they can fight with us.

Robert

Silent Apache

13.05.2004 00:43

The story comments: "
From the body language of the individuals on the ground, it is clear that they themselves do not feel they are doing anything which should be of concern to a US helicopter hovering nearby."
Apaches have an ability to run in silent mode. It's possible that the apache was running in silent, and these folks weren't aware of its presence. Also the reference to the geneva convention is fine, but the writer of the article, nor any of us, have the knowledge of why these persons were targeted. The military obviously thought it was worth the time and money to eliminate these persons. Maybe they were known to have been involved in anti-coalition activities. Maybe they were setting up an ambush. It's easy to villify and add baseless information to the story when you are already seeking to discredit someone.

David
mail e-mail: droyal@mojavetech.com

What to do about it!!!

13.05.2004 03:58

To Burden O Truth and everyone else,

What are we going to do about it? I'll tell ya. America and Australia (where I live) are having elections this year. Instead of voting for the incumbent (don't change your horse mid stream) give them a big surprise and vote for the most peaceful party. That will send a BIG message to all sides everywhere "That we are not going to continue to let this happen, we will not support tyrants from either side, we will not forget".

What has invading Afghanistan and Iraq achieved for the War on Terrorism? What has it done for world peace? Not much. If anything we are all much more at risk. I'm tired of hearing of local bomb threats and incedents from people I know and trust that are not even reported on TV because the media is locked on Bush's boys 'n girls or censored by the execs.

And then there's the bodycount in Iraq alone 10,000+ Iraqi civilians, 1000+ American military, god knows how many insurgents. What a mess. What a cost!!! The coalition has killed more Iraqis than Saddam and their supposed to think the US is an ally.

I dont have the solution for the problem that caused the problem, but I have the solution to the current problem. VOTE THEM OUT!!! We will not tolerate those who use military means to solve problems as the first resort.

One mans tyrant is another mans hero and visa versa. Lead by example, maintain the highest standard of human rights, health services, education and security. Then the people will give you their support. We're in this for the long haul, not the quick buck.

Owen
mail e-mail: jonesowen@hotmail.com
Homepage: http://www.nci.tafensw.edu.au

Another one bites the dust

13.05.2004 04:47

You can say all you want about blowing up "insurgents", but DAMN do those Apaches get the job done. Its easy to speculate as to what is right and what is wrong, and it all comes down to moral intent. The United States and its allies want to help, and the Iraqi insurgents dont understand, because they arent as fortunate as the Westerners, and beleave anything they are told, regardless of credibility, and that has alot to do with thier religion. its really cut and paste once you really think about it, kill the bad, save the good. What Im saying is, you never REALLY know whats going on, as much as wed like to think our media isnt filtered, at the same time those who know wel, know that isnt true.

Now, back to the 30mil, you cant say you dont feel somewhat good when you see your enemy get blow away.

Much like those who beheaded an unarmed American citizen, and you know what I say?

Keep the 30mil oiled.

Evil American

RAY CAN GET FUCKED!

13.05.2004 09:29

Ian and Bill seem to be the only ones with any sense around here!! Let us not forget that Bill is over there at the moment fighting. He has seen things that we cannot even begin to imagine. The media depicts what we watch, don't believe everything!

I still can't understand how you can make a comment on something you obviously have no idea about! The only "warcrime" committed in this video is the shooting of the wounded soldier. AND YES THAT IS AGAINST THE GENEVA CONVENTION! However, we can dispute wether or not the persons on the ground were civilians or soldiers until the cows come home but none of us have any fucking idea anyway!

One last comment for Ray! MATE YOU ARE A SPINELESS COWARD FUCK!! HOW DARE YOU SPEAK TO ANY SOLDIER LIKE THAT! REMEMBER SOLDIERS ARE NOT THE ONES TO START WARS POLITICIANS ARE. BILL, UNLIKE YOURSELF, HAS OPTED TO STAND UP AND FIGHT FOR ONES COUNTRY BUT TO ALSO FIGHT FOR PEOPLE WHO CANNOT DEFEND THEMSELVES! THATS WHY I JOINED THE ARMY! SO BEFORE YOU EVEN TRY TO THINK OF A COMMENT TO WRITE BACK TO ME WHY DON'T YOU TAKE YOUR LITTLE COCK OVER TO IRAQ AND HAVE A LOOK FOR YOURSELF AND GUARANTEED WE WILL SEE YOU ON TV BEING HELD HOSTSAGE BY SOME IRAQ EXTREMISTS!!

HAVE A GLASS OF HARDEN-UP, FOLLOWED BY A GLASS OF SHUT-THE FUCK UP!

BILLY AS IN BILLY RAY! HUH -YUCK

Moral intent

13.05.2004 13:43

"The United States and its allies want to help, and the Iraqi insurgents dont understand..."

Or maybe they understand perfectly, based on the evidence of their own eyes. Looks to them, and to me, like you've invaded illegally to remove the dictator you supported for all those years. They're glad he's gone, but now they want you and you "civilian contractor" torturers out.

"What Im saying is, you never REALLY know whats going on, as much as wed like to think our media isnt filtered, at the same time those who know wel, know that isnt true."

What more do we need to know about the wounded man on the ground? He plainly was not a threat, and shouldn't have been shot. You can make all the excuses you like, but it's not us that needs to be persuaded here, it's the judge at the war crimes tribunal or the court martial.

Ian

US saved UK in WWII ???

15.05.2004 12:52

"Everyone from Britian is writing their articles in the English language. Why is that? Shouldn't you be writing in German? Oh sorry that's right the U.S. Military stopped the Nazi's from wiping England off the face of the map."

What a load of crap. What your American history lessons don't tell you is that the Battle of Britain was over before the US decided to join in.

mangoman

ignorance

16.05.2004 01:23

I used to think that overall Americans were more ignorant than Europeans. On the contrary I've found Europeans are just as. Seriously, how can any of you make judgements on something you know nothing about. You were not there! Plain and simple. Let me draw a little analogy. Say I rape your sister, mother, wife, girlfriend whatever. Let's say you happen to see me on a street and you decide that I should pay. You decide to beat the crap out of me. However, someone with a video camera happens to film it. Then the video gets posted on the internet and everyone is posting things like..."what an asshole, he beating that innocent guy." point is with this silly analogy is that if you weren't there you don't know. i am totally against the war in iraq, but you can't judge this short film clip without knowing everything.

a lot of the comments from both sides of this discussion are pretty sad.
1. americans did not win ww2 by themselves.
2. americans are not all fat...we actually have won more medals at the olymics than anyone else
3. every country does things for it's own interests..not just america...unfortunately everything we (americans)do affects everyone. that is why our self interest seems worse than others.

christ

A better analogy

17.05.2004 13:36

Let's say you live in the USA, and you're being occupied by the Chinese army. Someone on your street rapes your sister, mother, wife, girlfriend whatever.

The Chinese send helicopters around, to look for the rapist. They see someone behaving suspiciously. So they ask permission from their supervisor, who gives the crew permission to shoot.

They shoot the rape suspect from a mile away, using 30mm cannons, shred him, shred his car, kill another guy who was with him, and wound one more guy who was with him. Then while the wounded guy is lying helpless on the ground, and not a threat to anyone, they shred him with the 30mm too.

A video camera in the helicopter's cockpit films the whole thing, complete with dialogue between the pilot and his fellow soldiers.

Can we work out what was going on in the film? Yes, maybe. If you heard a Chinese observer dismissing it with the excuse that "you weren't there, so you can't know what was going on", you would ignore him.

Tom

Home of the Brave ?

19.05.2004 11:50

Holy shit, I have just seen three people being murdered. Land of the free and home of the brave.........I'd be ashamed to be American if troops were committing this kind of murder (and that is all it is Mr Bush) under the lie that they are doing it for fredom. Bullshit. The war is illegal, the international community do nothing, the reason for going over there (weapons of mass DISTRACTION) was a lie, the international community do nothing. Pictures of torture by American thugs come out, the international community does nothing. No wonder this is happening, we have given them free reign to committ murder and it's all in our name folks. Bush won't see this footage coz he's more than likely off on another bloody holiday. Those men committing this act are killers and cowards. Could they not have landed and captured the people on the ground. ANYONE who is proud of American action over there is nuts. Sick!

Eoin
mail e-mail: eoingarland@hotmail.com

USA HATERS

29.05.2004 00:38

I'm a military vet and now a Civilian observer. Phil it seems to me based on my experience and observation that when the USA does nothing they get bitched at. When the USA does do somthing they get bitched at. So you might just add yourself to the list someday if you piss us off.

We always let others take the first punch then we kick ass. Nothing wrong with that.

As for the video, You and no one eles has a clue as to what happened other than there is 3 more dead ragheads on this planet.

Piss off Planet and leave us alone.

GI JOE

Another point of view

30.05.2004 02:58

Another point of view

Why don’t we discuss this as if they were Iraqis, had a RPG, formed a plan and downed the Apache. We would see them running up to the crash just as the wounded pilots were crawling out with a weapon to protect themselves with. The Iraqi in a split decision makes a call and fires the RPG into the guts of the pilot. He says Allah. Situation over. I think that it would be unanimous here that according to the rules of engagement the Iraqi made the right call and it was a justified kill. Now that would really be proof of saving lives. Just think of the killing power of the Apache and in multiple missions we’re talking potentially hundreds or even thousands and to those soldiers here who have never fought for your country that means a lot more brothers, sons, sisters, daughters, husbands and wives to send after tanks and helicopters and to send on kamikaze jets like on 911, not that Iraq had anything to do with it though, when America’s symbols of military and economic power were attacked and collateral damage occurred. Oh well. Piss around in someone else’s backyard and you’ll quickly learn
the consequences of your actions.

So many of you right wing drones believe anything your told, regardless of credibility, by your government. We are good they are bad. Some people would say it has to do with your government keeping you ignorant. I come from a country on your northern border (that ought to stump more than a few of them for a while) where we are sometimes shown things on our media that are not shown on yours. It’s little wonder why freedom of the press in the US is ranked 27 while we are ranked 5 th.

“you can’t say you don’t feel somewhat good when you see your enemy get blow away.”

I kind of agree with you here. If it was Bush’s and Rumsfeld’s heads coming off in the video, I would somewhat feel that justice has been done.

You know what I would say after knowing of all the unarmed innocent civilians that have been killed by and because of the US in Iraq and around the world, what is it? Something like 6,000,000, and you invaded my country?

Keep the knife sharp, Al.

Ray
mail e-mail: Rdurby@hotmail.com

Bunch of unknowledgeable SOB's

30.05.2004 04:46

There seems to be a bunch of unknowledgeable SOB's out there who don't seem to know a weapon from their ass. This clown, thevoiceofjustice, even advocates fragging lifers by the grunts. You stupid assholes. Don't like it???? Tell me to my face. You are calling for anarchy in the military-PISS ON YOU, Punk!! I spent 2 years in the Nam listening to you bunch of whiney punks who have no possible understanding of what war is. If you want to frag a bunch of lifers, go to Iraq and drive a tractor around for a while. I'll gladly be the weapons master and voice my opinion of you that way. Come and try to frag me!!!! I have been around "fragging" and know all about a whiney asshole who doesn't have the guts to stand up and state your case in full view. This sounds just like J Kerry who also advocated fragging lifers and doing everything to help the enemy. I despise people like the few of you who are so righteous in your speech but so dark in your hearts. You have the right to disagree with the policies of this country, I got three purple hearts in the Nam fighting for that right so I also have the right to voice my disgust at you.

Terry Merick
mail e-mail: tamsrlis@yahoo.com

Passing this on from Witness to Incident

30.05.2004 21:07

Iraq Apache Video Info

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I new reader I found the thread on the Apache gun run video interesting. Here is a little background info from someone (me) who was there:
The video was shot on Dec 1st, at the north gate of LSA Anaconda, near Balad, Iraq. We had been getting mortared all day, and snipers had killed a local contractor at the North gate and injured a soldier at the South gate. 107mm Chinese Rockets had also been launched into the camp, which housed the 21st Combat Support Hospital.
The Iraqis had attempted to shoot down medevac helicopters with RPGs. This scene was outside the North gate, directly inline with the air field, which launches numerous heavy lift cargo planes at all hours.
Be sure and watch the FULL video, which shows the Iraqis running into the field to place an object, reported to be a SA-7, surface to air missile. Also note the individual behind the tractor as he removes the cover from the weapon to fire at the helicopter. Firing distance was reported to be 1.75 miles from the targets.
Just one engagement in a very long day of combat. For the Apache pilots, it is business as usual.
__________________

andy gallo

Business as usual

02.06.2004 09:02

Yeah, that sums it up perfectly.

You gangsters are going to pay for your crimes.

Rory

Clueless

03.06.2004 23:31

Well once again I see that those who have not a clue to reality are all full of opinions.
First you were not there, so you really have no idea as to what really happened. Second you are not in any way an expert on interpiting IR imagery but you appear to be an expert at jumping to conclusions and showing your ignorance. Third, if you fell so strongly about what is happening then take your silly ass there and see some reality, or fourth you can sit here and enjoy the freedoms secured by someone elses service that you seem to be judging very harse (since you were not there). Well let me give you one fact, more than that will overload your pea brain, the Apachie can spank your ass from such a range that you would not know it were there until it was to late, (How about them apples) now think about that when you watch the video, oh and also who the hell plows a field at NIGHT!!!!!! and without headlights on, I know there were no headlights because on a FLIR they will show white hot, so they are in the dark doing dangerous farming things NOT even using the headlights on their vehicles, that was because they didn't want anyone to know they were there. Now go play in traffic, this will reduce the burden on those who have some inteligence and are trying to help others.

Clay

It was fair

15.06.2004 08:40

There is no way they knew the Apache helicopter was there. The Apache was probably at least 3/4 of a mile away and is quiet. It is it's job, to be quiet. The way the guy ran over to the tractor and dropped something and ran back it definetly suspicous. To me it looked like an RPG wrapped in a sheet. I believe the US was well within thier right to do this. BTW, I get my facts due to the fact that I'm in the Air Force as a Helicopter Crew Chief.

Ken

awful video

19.06.2004 11:56

The General paused. His eagle like eyes swept over the hillside. He said with pride, "There is one great thing that you men will all be able to say after this war is over and you are home once again. You may be thankful that twenty years from now when you are sitting by the fireplace with your grandson on your knee and he asks you what you did in the great World War II, you WON'T have to cough, shift him to the other knee and say, "Well, your Granddaddy shoveled shit in Louisiana." No, Sir, you can look him straight in the eye and say, "Son, your Granddaddy rode with the Great Third Army and a Son-of-a-Goddamned-Bitch named Georgie Patton!"

dick

why europeans suck

19.06.2004 13:44

The lack of stones, particularly amongst the Boche, Frogs, and slimeys..I mean Limeys is simple to understand. During the last 100 years the best, bravest, and strongest have been sacrificed in the great Europissn land wars. What was left to procreate were the inferior cowardly genetically unfit pussies who would rather cower than fight for their women and children. That's ok, as long as you understand the genisis of your cowardice, fear, and inferiority.

Nick Danger

Fuck Europeans

19.06.2004 21:02

Why don't you continentals have one big gay marriage; then we can nuke ya'll

Gunnar

I'm sorry, but I can't help but have no sympathy what-so-ever.

23.06.2004 09:56

Simply put. When you're being fired on every day. By rag-heads with RPGs, and other instruments of death, because your government put you there. I am sorry. But any small little hint of hostility, should be met with deadly force. If one of those little shit heads so much as touches a rock, they need to get smoked. When a soldier is out there day by day, putting his life on the line, FUCK the geneva convention. They don't obey, so why should we. The united states, has for too long had to deal with little ignorant jealous bastards who honeslty belive we want to take them over and change their ways of lives. Sadly, we could care less. We just want to be left in peace, which is the way life should be. But unfortunately, these punks persist. That is why they must die. Shoot first, and never ask questions. If they looked like they were doing something bad, they were.

Soldiers should do everything they can to protect themselves, and prevent further harm to themselves. And when they are forced, by a retarded president, to be put in harms way, they should be allowed to do to these people, whatever they please.

Burn in hell.

People tend to forget the terrible things, they have done. And would love to blame the world superpower.
It's amazing that it has come to this.
When something goes wrong, America needs to fix it, because no one else will.
When something goes wrong, it's America that gets the blame.

When will the world start taking some personal responsiblity?

When will America start to be more open to co-operating with the world?
It seems as though it will never happen.
But until then, kill, kill, kill.

Adam
mail e-mail: dj_freaq@hotmail.com

Giving the American Left a Bad Name

23.06.2004 14:40

This is a disturbing video. I had seen the shorter version previously, but today is the first time I had seen the longer version (my brother asked me if I could find the video, so I did a Google search and ended up here). Though the longer video provides a bit more context, this is still a mere snapshot.

The fact is that most everyone (if not all) people on here do not have the expertise to analyze this video and judge the actions taken as wrong or right. Be honest with yourselves: you already had your mind made up before you watched it. You already decided that you were going to watch three innocent farmers get brutally destroyed by a 30mm cannon, operated by evil, zionist Americans. (Or, on the other hand, you decided you were going to watch a video of brave Marines taking action and doing their honorable duty).

I am proud to say I am on the left. I am proud to say that I don't agree with the current administration. But I am not proud of the way other members of the left adopt a thousand-mile wide viewpoint repeated endlessly (Every action taken by a soldier in Iraq is wrong. America only operates on financial interest. We live in a Big Brother society). This does us no good.

If you are truly someone who believes in change for the better, and if you see fault, get real and true to your cause. Don't just spout hollow catch phrases. You can superimpose the face of Bush over Hitler all you want, but that's not going to convince anyone of anything. Where's the substance? And why aren't you looking into matters that you CAN actually analyze (as opposed to a 2 minute long video clip)?

If you say we're at war with Oceania, and we're living '1984,' what is the use? If all you do is call America an Evil Empire, what are you advocating? Do you know why the right consitently overtakes the left? Because they take action. They don't spout off vague generalities that would be better placed in a teen-angst song by Korn (or some other totally manufactured "modern" rock band).

We criticize Bush for being "stupid," but who are the stupid ones? We are at a critical time. Our iron is hot, but THIS is how we're striking it? This a time when we can change the administration, and correct our mistakes. We should be seeing the abuses at Abu Ghraib, the 9/11 Commission reports, the Iraq situations as the places from where WE take actions. Instead, most of you sleepwalk mumbling about how Bush is both a retard, and a power hungry villain bent on world domination.

Well, if he's so retarded, it should be easy for us to get a better administration in office. And if he's such a powerful villain, we'd better do a lot more than rollover and spout off pullquotes someone read on a Michael Moore fansite.

Go home and do your homework. This nation and our politics are filled with complexities. If you haven't the focus to look deeper than a few video clips, we might as well get comfy with Bush, 'cause he's going to be in office for awhile.

Or, maybe you're all experts on the Geneva Conevtions, and you were all there in that Apache Helicopter. And maybe you all know how to exactly interpret whether or not that tubular object was a weapon. And maybe you all know who those people were and what they were up to.

If you want to be activists, then goddamnit, get active.

David
mail e-mail: ghmodcubist@yahoo.com

apache shoots men

23.06.2004 20:10

This shooting of these men in the video is clearly justified if you see the full version of the clip. Clearly the guys are placing an RPG launcher and no there is no flag being waved in surrender, if you look close it is the cover of the rpg being stripped of to be used. There is no war crime. This is a war and this was a legitimate engagement. I guess for the most hardcore leftists though, they should have waited for the RPG to be launched and landed the aircraft to help the one who was wounded risking being fired upon. You people can try as hard as you wish to undermine this effort but you will lose in the end.

daryl
mail e-mail: ddowdy@elp.rr.com

Another point of view

04.07.2004 05:49

Why don’t we discuss this as if they were Iraqis, had a RPG, formed a plan and downed the Apache. We would see them running up to the crash just as the wounded pilots were crawling out with a weapon to protect themselves with. The Iraqi in a split decision makes a call and fires the RPG into the guts of the pilot. He says Allah. Situation over. I think that it would be unanimous here that according to the rules of engagement the Iraqi made the right call and it was a justified kill. Now that would really be proof of saving lives. Just think of the killing power of the Apache and in multiple missions we’re talking potentially hundreds or even thousands and to those soldiers here who have never fought for your country that means a lot more brothers, sons, sisters, daughters, husbands and wives to send after tanks and helicopters and to send on kamikaze jets like on 911, not that Iraq had anything to do with it though, when America’s symbols of military and economic power were attacked and collateral damage occurred. Oh well. Piss around in someone else’s backyard and you’ll quickly learn
the consequences of your actions.

So many of you right wing drones believe anything your told, regardless of credibility, by your government. We are good they are bad. Some people would say it has to do with your government keeping you ignorant. I come from a country on your northern border (that ought to stump more than a few of them for a while) where we are sometimes shown things on our media that are not shown on yours. It’s little wonder why freedom of the press in the US is ranked 27 while we are ranked 5 th.

“you can’t say you don’t feel somewhat good when you see your enemy get blow away.”

I kind of agree with you here. If it was Bush’s and Rumsfeld’s heads coming off in the video, I would somewhat feel that justice has been done.

You know what I would say after knowing of all the unarmed innocent civilians that have died in Iraq, around 2,000,000, and killed around the world, what is it? something like 6,000,000 all by and because of the US and you invaded my country?

Keep the knife sharp, Al.

Bob

Evidence Related to Chopper Technology ~ They knew what they were doing.

05.07.2004 06:06

My brother being an AH-64 Apache Pilot in the U.S army, and myself about to go into warrent officer flight school for helicopters after basic training, gives me some knowlage of how these guys work, and helicopter technology. The artical quotes: "From the body language of the individuals on the ground, it is clear that they themselves do not feel they are doing anything which should be of concern to a US helicopter hovering nearby." Why did they seem so calm? Why not in a nervous rush? Listen to what the Pilot and co-pilot are saying. They AREN'T nearby. In the beggining, they're trying to find an "Auto-range." This here is proof that they were definately far enough away to be concealed. Apache helicopters can engange with the 30mm Cannon from 2 kilometers away. 2 kilometers is definately enough to conceal, by means of sight and sound, a helicopter that was not only built for combat but for stealth and reconassiance. when the pilots need an auto range.. that means that they're waitng for the computer to send a laser signal that will bounce back, determine distance, and compensate for the bullet drop that the round will go through on the way to the target. This indicates that the pilots are FAR off if they need to use an autorange to engage on those 3 men, becuase Pilots only use autorange for the 30mm cannon in a situation of long distance. Note: the amount of time it took to engage each target. if an apache was close, it wouldnt need auto range with a round of that caliber. the assult would have been quick. no more than 3 to 4 seconds of firing in a quick swoop moving at about 150MPH, just mow them down in a matter of seconds while remaining stationary. the lack targeting required for this close combat would have made it MUCH quicker. An apache is a low profile helicopter as far as noise and size go. And its obvious becuase of their body language AND the fact that the pilots had to use auto range, that the target was far off. The apache has amazing range. And if they shot at anything that their targeting systems picked up.. burning up ammo like water. these guys dont fire without intelligence. Note, you didnt hear them discuss the possible threat of this target. Thats becuase they already have intelligence on this target and they already know what it is. There are a number of different types of units we use for scouting and recon that the enemy never notices ; from snipers to sattilites, outfitted blackhawks, apaches on recon, OH-58 kiowa warrior choppers on recon. ALL of these are used to gather information about movement on the enemy. And if you think that its " too harsh" to open up on them with the mcdonnel douglas 30mm, then they should have backed down when they had the chance.
Consider those technological facts on the mcdonnel douglas ah64 Apache.

Now consider these Facts about the biological weapons.

For those that are whining and complaing that we shouldn't be there in the first place becuase we never found the "weapons of mass destruction", consider this. Soldiers in central iraq have found Grade B Plutonium. Hey, guess what? Grade B plutonium is used for one thing and one thing only. And its not Plutonium Cupcakes. Plutonium is used for BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS. Its radioactive chemical they use in those sort of weapons.. Guess what else they found? Empty warheads?Hell, they'r
e only using them for coffee mugs, right? If i find a steering wheel, a winsheild, an engine, and some car doors.. this couldnt have ANYTHING to do with a full automobile could it? If thats not enough evidence.. how about the fact that regardless if sadaam hussein had them presently. HE USED MUSTARD GAS AGAINST THE KURDISH PEOPLE AND KILLED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS. Where do all these memories go?

Nyberg
mail e-mail: Shutupandplay06@yahoo.com

WMDs

05.07.2004 08:37

Rumsfeld, fighting for FREEDOM

Yeah, it was reported on FOX News (surprise surprise) that "Weapons Grade Plutonium" was found. That was then found to be false shortly afterwards, one of a series of false alarms shouted out loud by FOX and the White House.

"Empty warheads?Hell, they'r e only using them for coffee mugs, right?"

Those were battlefield warheads. Not long range. Every army's got those. No threat was posed by them to the US. Bush lied. Powell lied. Cheney lied.

"how about the fact that regardless if sadaam hussein had them presently. HE USED MUSTARD GAS AGAINST THE KURDISH PEOPLE AND KILLED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS. Where do all these memories go?"

And how about the fact that Rumsfeld was shaking Saddam's hand right after that was announced, and vetoing condemnation of Saddam in the UN, and trying to pin the blame on Iran, because Saddam was your ally at the time? And how about the fact that the left were protesting against Saddam at the time, and the right-wing press were calling the left "naive", and saying things like "you have to work with unpleasant people some times for the greater good", etc. Where do all these memories go?

John

s

05.07.2004 10:45

That's a great video, got anymore?

s

Over and over again

06.07.2004 13:55

I went looking for this video and watched the longer version, over and over again.
I am opposed to the American invasion of Irak, for multiples reasons which have already been explored in this thread, from corporate greed to lies of WMD's rampant in Irak etc...
What have I seen?
I watched it over and over again, trying to tell myself "these are farmers after a day's work", or "these are terrorists disposing of a hot weapon". i read everyone, even those whose views were completely opposite to mine. I heard some stupid things, I saw people lying though their teeth ( general so and so has ascertained that the truck contained a massive amount of RPG's, etc.... ). I also picked up some military info that I knew nothing about ( long range and stealth of the Apache, usual procedures, etc...)
I watched each of these people over and over again. The way that guy runs in the field and drops what looks like a weapon in the furrow, the "flag waving" that looks very much like someone desperately trying to unsheath said weapon...
I am NO expert and will first of all say this: I am just trying honestly to make out what little I can from the fragmentary evidence before my eyes. Why should I do that? Well, because I have the right to vote, for one thing, and so do not believe I should just "let the people in charge take care of everything" but try to understand things for myself to the limits of my possibilities.
I don't think they were farmers. Not that it matters now...
So some will call them terrorists, and others will call them freedom-fighters.
But what did I see?
Well, I saw that guy on the tractor who may or may NOT have been in on this, get smoked numero uno and blown to kingdom come. And NO, it does not give me a hard-on.
Then I see the second one trying, it seems, to unveil a weapon and get it.
and finally I see a man crawling on the floor, wounded, posing no threat, getting wasted from on high.
I have seen war, I have seen murder, i have seen what General Galt calls a war-crime, and you know what? It looks just like a video-game. To an extent that makes me sick.
I understand the comments of those who find this video exciting. I find it despicable, i don't share their excitement, but I understand. They feel comfortable watching it the way they would feel comfortable in front of a computer screen wasting congs or skinnies without facing real danger.
Someone said here "well, when you are in a million dollar death machine that everybody wants to blow off the skies, you take action". yeah, I bet you do.
But what the f.... are you doing in that million dollar death machine in the first place?
Once you're in there,all the rest follows suit. You get shot at, you go after people under cover of vastly superior firepower and technology and you blow little pixel people to smithereens on your computer screen. And people back at home see this and feel justified, because they have forgotten these are human beings down there.

I shudder at the wrath, the ugliness, the horror that the US have unleashed on themselves by not thinking their actions through and following the lies of Bush, his cronies, and his media.
I will not cheer when the next 9/11 horror happens. I will grieve for those who are caught in it. And I grieve for those three poor bastards in the field, and the manner of their death.
I sure hope the US grunts who are there in this hell at the moment wake up to what has been done to them. They have been placed in "clear and present danger" to ensure that Dick Cheney's Halliburtons Shares skyrocket. I hope they come back, alive. And face their real enemy.

Christian Lehmann
mail e-mail: drclehmann@aol.com

Excessive force? No.

08.07.2004 18:02

Oh come on. What are you smoking?

To quote:
[indisputable evidence of excessive force use by U.S.

23.01.2004 07:51"

"just like the upper discription says, these people on the ground were too nonchalant and unafraid with the sound of helicopter rotors and engines nearby to be doing things that would absolutely be confirmable by distant thermal imaging in the dark as 'hostile' and furthermore, assuming that they were indeed carrying some kind of weapons, the video shows a total lack of understanding of engagement rules that stipulate you do not continue to use deadly force when the unconfirmed 'enemy' in this case, possibly 'non combattants' are not resisting, firing weapons, or otherwise able to resist as they are dead or wounded by the first volley of fire. this video indeed depicts a war crime. it's not likely to be
the only time it's been done, either...judging by the way it was handled by the order to continue to kill by the unit commander. it'd been entirely different if these people on the ground had been firing weapons at helicopters or ground forces, or absolutely beyond all reason, potentially dangerous. continued use of force like this will guarantee that
all available able bodied and recruitable men in that country will be looking at this and thinking that they shouldn't stop till the last soldier is out of their country. vietnam should have taught that lesson....bombing the ho chi minh trail every night with heavy
bombers didn't negate the eventual loss of the war and retreat by 'vastly superior technologically advanced forces' of the occupier. this will be another repeat of that lesson, I'm afraid"

an objector with military background who knows better]

These 3 lives taken on this video won't even start to make up for the thousands of lives taken on 9/11. This is totally different than Vietnam. The Iraqies attacked us first on our home soil. Payback's a bitch. We were totally in the right.

A proud American

Points to Ponder...

09.07.2004 18:23

1. If what that "innocent Iraqi" threw into the field was not an RPG (or some other hand-held weapon), then how do you explain his obviously suspicious behavior?

2. When our medics attempt to help wounded insurgents, their comrades shoot at them. Therefore, we have begun finishing-off their wounded in situations like that. The same things happened during WWII; the Japanese were animals. Why should we needlessly risk the lives of our people?

Don Jordan

It's war, stupid

10.07.2004 17:29

It's a war, stupid. Where were you when the Iraqis were doing it?

Vladimir pugachev
mail e-mail: pugachevV@netscape.net

Amazed by the Iraqi 'farmers'...

12.07.2004 11:10

I didn't realize that Iraqi farmers are so rich. In a country that has been under UN sanctions for most of the past decade, those Iraqi 'farmers' had, at my count, three vehicles out there for four people, including a large truck.

Maybe such wealth comes from their dilligent farm work. If you look at the time marker on the TADS display, this action occured between 1625 and 1629 Zulu time, that is, Greenwich Standard Time (top left corner: hours, minutes, seconds, followed by a Z for Zulu). Iraq is four hours ahead of Zulu time, making this between 2025 and 2029 Lima, or local time. Those are some awfully dilligent farmers, to be heading out, starting out working, in their fields at about 8:30 pm on a December night and to only have four people out to work.

TommythegunUSMC

911

24.07.2004 01:47

Looks to me like the second guy is rushing to unwrap the weapon to try and get a shot off on the helo.No it dosn't look like he was trying to wave a surrender flag!
Now put yourself in the position of the crew of the helo...and tell me your gonna take a chance that they just farmers farming with hand tools.....but no it turns out to be a rpg and he got a shot off on you while you were wondering. there goes a what 22 million dollar helo you and your best bud...beacouse it might just be a farmer..I don't think so!

In a war where suvillians and combatants look exactly alike...well your gonna break some eggs.

Kilgque

How naive can someone be?

24.07.2004 02:13

Quote" This video cannot show a war crime, as everyone know the US Military do not commit war crimes. The US Military fights to defend freedom. It's the other side (usually those with the darker skin) that commit war crimes. " -Rob Jones ....

I cant believe it. How naive can people be? While I believe those people werent farmers, and the Apach didnt kill innocent, I certainly do not believe the media and the liar Geroge W. Bush. DONT TRUST THE MEDIA, MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND! MEDIA=PROPAGANDA.

smaug

I can't help but point and laugh!

25.07.2004 15:05

...you are all wondering if that 'really is a weapon' that the "farmer" abandoned. C'mon, now! That's a f-cking RPG. And whatever that second weapon was, it wasn't meant to welcome American forces, that's for sure. So they are combatants. We shoot combatants. There are three less people on the planet now that are trying to murder Americans. That, my friends, is a good thing.

Corporal Zimmerman

Perfectly valid assault

26.07.2004 05:00

They are acting like nothing is going on as to not spook the helicopter. But you can see them continuously looking at it, and hiding something. And when the helicopter DOES shoot, the man at the left, at the tractor, is quickly trying to unwrap something to use it. Its obviously a weapon, or he would have laid down and put his hands up.

Ron Johnson

Got what was coming to them

28.07.2004 15:08

seeing that the apache can engage its 30mm canons from 2 miles away, and the fact that they had to use auto range finder they must have been at a great distance, these guys would not have known the it was out there watching them.
watch the whole video and then you too will agree they got what was comeing

R.Davidson

Southboy

03.08.2004 17:18

You are all a bunch of British pussies. I would like to see how you would feel about this if your husband/wife/mother/father was kidnapped over there and some crazy militant Islamic asshole thinks he is gonna secure his place with Allah and forty virgins by cutting off their head. May I remind you that THEY came to the U.S. and blew up OUR folks. The shit they are going through over there is of their own making.

Fuck you

Much To Think About

07.08.2004 19:53

Well now, Some of you have very good points, and make well aimed, thought out statements about the initial issue at hand(Apache Video). Others not so much, There are too many people with an opinion, and not much else. I myself have never, and hope to never engage in combat, whether militarily or otherwise. I feel that there are some issues here that I would like to speak on.
First and foremost, I am an American, so please feel free to judge me by what people in my country did 50 yrs. ago. 100 yrs. ago and SURE let's just go back to even when this country was not a set of United States. I know you will, it's ok. You know why?
Well sir, In most cases evident and frequently sited in history, I don't blame you. I myself have never owned a slave or killed an indian.
As far as that goes. You Brits... Yes you. I have seen quite a few posts in this thread from you gentlemen, Now who told you fellows that we make these decisions together?
It seemed like all of your posts took on the same atmosphere of ignorance where my Country is concerned. You make it out as if the country as a whole decided to go to war with Iraq.....Sure. When our government is on the verge of making life and death decisions, the president gets on television and we all take a vote. Doesn't your country work like that? No?? OOhhh your countries government makes their own decision without consulting every citizen. That's right....
Do you see where I'm going with this?? Don't blame the whole for the faults of a few. Our leaders make decisions, Our soldiers follow orders, Our citizens watch as decisions are made. They cry at the cost of following orders. 90% of us are not the ones you seek. We have nothing to do as far as swaying decisive orders from a commander in chief. If you brits have a problem with what our president does, I have a suggestion for you. Blame Him.
Blaming groups as a whole is a very ignorant view to take. I personally liked it when someone made the comment about the Apache being named after a culture we destroyed. That's wonderful. You know we were there.Oh yes Every American alive today(even the man who named the apache) were there killing indians. How long ago was that? How old would we have to be? Are you, Sir, willing to accept the punishment of what your great nation did in the past? Before you were born? You should, as it seems that is what you expect from us Americans.
My personal view is not of This Country and That Country, I believe the only way this PLANET will work is to be just that, One Planet. Why are there starving children with so many millionaires in the world? How many tons of food is thrown out a day world wide? Why is there luxury in one place when there is defile in another? I'm not going so far as to say we should be a "Utopian Society". I believe it is as simple as taking where there is much and giving where there is little. Save your paperwork.
I blame no one. Who am I to say what should happen to this man or that one. Assumptions Guesses cliche's It has become second nature for anybody with the ability to speak to judge with every breath they take. All we know is what we are told. You show me a man who has never commited a wrong doing. You bring him to me. Let this man judge me, for he is the only one appropriate to do so.

R.
mail e-mail: Q7suited@yahoo.com

Response to Stupid American

11.08.2004 18:59

Id just like to respond to the Yank who wrote on the 26.01.2004 that we Brits should be grateful we're not speaking German.

Dont forget that you're just a bunch of colonists that've never won a war on your own in your entire history!!

Phil Bart

Blinkered idiots

11.08.2004 19:35

'Proud American' writes:
"These 3 lives taken on this video won't even start to make up for the thousands of lives taken on 9/11. This is totally different than Vietnam. The Iraqies attacked us first on our home soil. Payback's a bitch. We were totally in the right."

Are there really still people around who think that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11? Even Bush admits now that the Iraqis had nothing to do with it. You've been lied to. Wake up.

John

of course it was a weapon

14.08.2004 07:15

I can't believe i am the ONLY one that noticed this.

First, he runs and tosses an object into a field for no apparent reason.

Second, once the first guy is eaten, the second guy (buy the tractor) is crouching down tearing the wrap off the RPG to put it into action immediately.

IT WAS A WEAPON. :)

dan

To Dan...

27.08.2004 09:55

You don't generally shoot someone for doing something for no apparent reason. The proper thing to do was to send a patrol out to investigate ASAP (which needs to happen anyway if the heli does attack, to examine the remains), especially if this was close to a military base as claimed. It's pretty clear that there was no threat to the heli before the shooting, so they could very well have waited a little bit to see what would happen next. With that big gun, any car that was about to drive away could easily be stopped, so why not look at the situation a bit longer?

As for the guy next to the tractor unwrapping something, he was taking it from the tractor already before the shots were fired (you can see it just before the walking guy is being targeted). So unless he is psychic, that couldn't have been in response to the shooting. In fact, it is unlikely that he would know that a helicopter fired at his buddy. It was night, the helicopter was far away and his tractor engine was running (that is pretty noisy). So how would he know, especially in the second before he frantically starts to unwrap. Even if it was an RPG, how would he aim it?

But of course the worst thing was just killing that injured person who even stopped crawling. There is zero justification for that. There is no reasonable explanation that you can come up with to excuse it.

Wouter

Kill them all

31.08.2004 18:29

Kill them all and be done with.

soldier

death is just a game

31.10.2004 15:12

This is sick. Americans are sick. A country founded on death and guns that has no regard for human life (look at their murder rate).....sitting in their advanced helicopters and tanks killing people as though it were a video game. They shot a wounded man there that was no threat. Even in combat their trigger happy cowboys blow away their own side.

The answer.........they enjoy killing people. Look at atrocities in Vietnam and Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I don't care about any US soldiers that become casualties over in Iraq........fuck 'em.

Andy S

Gucci Wraparounds?

05.11.2004 06:09

The content of this video is no doubt sickening. We as outsiders can only speculate and assume. Therefore that's all we can surmise are, speculations and assumptions. The only people who know what really happened were the people gunned down and the pilots of the Apache. For someone to talk about how they'll "Gloat" when a coalition soldier or pilot is killed is even more sickening. And I seriously doubt any "Yanks" are wearing Gucci Wraparounds. I happen to have several family members who were dumb enough to serve the state and whom are living in tents and sleeping on the ground. Only to wake up to being mortared and to hear the yelling and screaming of wounded soldiers around them. If you want the facts get stupid and SERVE YOUR COUNTRY!

Limey Bastard

It's confirmed

09.11.2004 00:11

Well, seeing this, the (re) election and reading the comments made by Yanky-doodle-dandies, including the Apache crew chief who is too ignorant to know how to spell "dying." I'm convinced that the U.S.A. is well suited to rot in hell while peaceful people the world over rejoice in the death of an nation of ignorant psychopaths.

Canada is better than the USA

Murderers, and their flag waving fans

10.11.2004 16:24

"The problem isnt americans, its idiotic people who spam forums with anti-american garbage."

People you disagree with are responsible for dead Iraqis?
It's "anti-american" to point out war crimes? Was it "anti-american" to report on the My Lai massacre too?

"...but of course all the 3rd world countries who believe this have no freedom of speech..."

Which 3rd world countries have less freedom of speech than the USA, you pig-ignorant knuckledragger? Anywhere in South America and Africa, apart from the US client states?

"how do you think it makes them feel to be over there knowing their entire country thinks their risking their lives for a useless cause."

They agree. It makes them feel sickened and angry. They write home a lot talking about it. They think that they joined the British army to serve their country, and instead their lives are being pissed away on some other country's oil war so you fat wankers can drive everywhere in your Hummers.

Fucking morons. The pro-war comments from americans on here are as bad as the killing itself.

Dave

Illegal killing

18.11.2004 16:49

QUOTE: "These 3 lives taken on this video won't even start to make up for the thousands of lives taken on 9/11. This is totally different than Vietnam. The Iraqies attacked us first on our home soil. Payback's a bitch. We were totally in the right."

Iraq wasn't behind 9/11 you ignorant f**k, and people involved in the Iraqi insurgency sure as hell had absolutely nothing to do with it. You are excusing the hypocritical murder of human beings when you don't even know who was behind 9/11, that is shocking to be honest. And no matter what these men where doing they were:

- no threat to US forces
- the tractor driver wasn't involved and got killed first
- the nature of those killings is illegal under US and international law
- the use of force was totally excessive
- even when one man was left injured and was no threat at all (if he ever had been), he was executed by pilots in the safety of a helicopter
- the pilot cannot have been 100% positive that the object was a weapon (and no, not only hot weapons show up on a modern IR camera), yet he said it was and the radio advice was to "smoke them" for an activity that does not prove you are a terrorist, or insurgent.

Nick

USA - War and Oil Junkies

14.12.2004 16:12

I was born in a country that along with Spain was the only empire that devided the world in half, we did it because we felt superior, both cultural and technological. Preety much what the Americans are thinking now. I know what´s comming... The US used to think and act in a never before seen, human fashion, back in the 40´s all the world was amazed by their universalism, the world empowered them so that threats as the former USSR wouldn´t prevail, their moral was well seen by all... now, after choosing for the second time a puppet of the oil and arms industry for their representation, there is no longuer a single country in the world that can stand them... I try to explain to people that only 52 million of you are to blame, and 70% of that is due to pure ignorance, but some comments i´ve seen here, i dont know... i think your empire is in decadence, its a normal cicle.
Read my lips... killing others is always murder. There is no degree to it... not even death penalty is less murder. there is no scale, its murder, it doesnt matter how why or when, its always murder... That crew in the helicopter murdered those people... no one knows why, not even them...

beentheredonethat

september 11 my happy day!

18.12.2004 14:12

11-09 was my happy day. it was great to see u americans
scared to death. at least someone shows u that u are weak
and not immortal.
at least u could feel how it is when someone harm u
in yours own country!

WTC

And also...

17.04.2005 23:33

In follow up to my previous post, presuming it has been allowed...

The sheer depressing nature of this thread and my response to it has led to a certain amount of reflection on my part, with the assistance of some fine red wine.

My reflections are thus -

We are just over evolved monkeys. Anything we do is usually stunted and ill-informed. It does not matter whether the weapon in our hand is a club or the trigger of an M-230A1 30-mm cannon. We are just animals, and trying to righteously analyse the actions of our species in war is as futile as throwing snowballs at the sun.

The biggest tragedy is that we are capable of something more fruitful than war, but seldom choose that path.

More to follow after more wine. Maybe.

arbitrary

you are all stupid and misinformed (except the british readers)

19.04.2005 21:58

Io start, I am american, but everyday i leve here is another that canada looks better and better.

To all that say this was sweet, all i can say is you go out to your little ranch in texas, and ill come to the rescue and blow the shit out of you with my apache.

And to all the europeans and the rest of the world, i am sorry.... i dint vote for him.

bush is wrong

Liberal Idiot

20.04.2005 13:37

You people are a bunch of bleeding heart liberal idiots.God bless the Men of the US military who risk their lives so people like you have a forum for free speach,however ludicrous it may be.You are disgraceful.

John

the hell with you WHINNING CIVILIANS

29.04.2005 03:19

ALL YOU WHINING CIVLIANS can kiss my ass. i have was over there for a year and have been home for a year. However in that year i have had to put up with everyone whining and crying about what goes on yoo people just do not know what it is like and never will because you are too scared to go over there. so sit on your fat asses and leave the fighting to the men in uniform and let us be. because

1) when you see your buddy get blown away by an ied or sniper your on gaurd
2) in my veiw that happened late at night because of the amount of ir coming of the ground it is hotter than hell over there and the ground is pretty cool tells me from being over there that that happened LATE at night no farmer would be working on a field late at night.

SO in short QUITE YOUR DAMN belly aching and get a life or you wanna change the military ion the US GET OFF YOUR ASS AND JOIN then when you have gone though what we have then you can talk other SHUT THE HELL UP

jason

Appalling

01.05.2005 20:15

This is total cold blooded murder. Obviously farmers. No aggressive movements. Unbelievable that this should be acceptable.

Neil Bridgens
mail e-mail: nirakara@xtra.co.nz

Ragrider

02.05.2005 07:24

Uh-Huh! Just some innocent farmers, doop-tee-doop-tee-dooo. Having a friendly chat and a smoke. "Oh!! I need to run fast, and place these innocent "tractor-markers" into the field".And then I have to run to and fro, due to that Apache I know is watching me. Doop-tee-doop-tee-doo". Just us innocent farmers, laying "tractor-markers" and waving white flags here. Tractor-drivers don't need markers. They follow the rows. And they sure as hell don't do it at night (not mid-morning) as the moron terrorist who posted this site claims.
Thank you for the excellent footage of the terrorist bodies being torn into itty-bitty pieces by a 30. I loved it. Sorta like watching a suicide bomber blowing little babies to pieces on a bus. I know. I've seen it. Go fuck yourself, you idiot, lying, terrorist morons. Have a nice day!! You can't win by killing yourselves. Lest you run outta guys.

Aaronboy

Ragrider

02.05.2005 07:24

Uh-Huh! Just some innocent farmers, doop-tee-doop-tee-dooo. Having a friendly chat and a smoke. "Oh!! I need to run fast, and place these innocent "tractor-markers" into the field".And then I have to run to and fro, due to that Apache I know is watching me. Doop-tee-doop-tee-doo". Just us innocent farmers, laying "tractor-markers" and waving white flags here. Tractor-drivers don't need markers. They follow the rows. And they sure as hell don't do it at night (not mid-morning) as the moron terrorist who posted this site claims.
Thank you for the excellent footage of the terrorist bodies being torn into itty-bitty pieces by a 30. I loved it. Sorta like watching a suicide bomber blowing little babies to pieces on a bus. I know. I've seen it. Go fuck yourself, you idiot, lying, terrorist morons. Have a nice day!! You can't win by killing yourselves. Lest you run outta guys.

Aaronboy

Good Soldiers Doing Their Job

04.05.2005 00:47

You guys gotta be joking me. Those are obvious Iraqi military personell. At the time of war, US soldiers had every right to use any means necessary to kill their enemy. This a time of WAR!!! Whether going to war was a right decision or not, US soldeirs can and should use all means and weapons available to them. That doesn't make them cowards, that makes the SMART!!!
Way to go US Army.

Sergei
mail e-mail: sag200882@hotmail.com

AN EXPERT OPINION

10.05.2005 01:40

Well...I've seen the video....
I've read the above "theories"...
I've been to Iraq...And what I am about to say is gonna piss alot of you off.Read if you want,but don't get mad.If you're gonna get mad,then go away now....

Who knows?I dont.You dont.The only people who know for sure are dead.The second best opinion would come from the pilot.
I have seen,with my own two eyes,how decieving things can be.Unless you are a soldier who has been there,You cannot imagine in your wildest dreams how hard a decision like this is to make.
We are not blood thirsty killers.We do not,despite what the movies and T.V.reflect,look foward to killing our fellow human beings.We are human...just like you.We train very hard to be sharp,and do the right thing when the time comes.But underneath the uniforms and the tactical gear and the guns we are still only human...still just like you.The difference between you and us is that we must do a horrible and difficult job.As much as I and any other soldier hate to have to say this,we still make mistakes.That is just how God made us,as humans,and no amount of training and dicipline will ever change that.
I cant say if this killing was justified or not.I dont know the pilot or anyone involved personally.I am sorry that maybe some innocent people lost their lives that day.It's war,ladies and gentlemen.I know you don't want to accept that,but that's it.There is the way things are,and the way things should be.We as soldiers can't do a damn thing to change that,but we try like hell every day.
I am asking you,as a human being,to stop this.It makes little difference now if the man in the video had an RPG or a shovel.He isn't coming back either way.Somewhere out there,there is a pilot who will be haunted by these images far more than you or I,because it was his hand that took these men's lives.That is a hard burden to bear...I bear it myself.He did not kill these men for fun.He did it because at the time,he truely felt he was protecting his fellow soldiers,the Iraqi people,and the American people from bad men.As a mortal human being,ask yourself if you could have done it better had you been in that chopper.
Above all,no matter what you choose to do,remember that we as soldiers are normal human beings with a very hard job to do.We will make mistakes,but in the end we will never allow you or your sons and daughters to be harmed on our watch.

U.S.SOLDIER

It's not war

10.05.2005 02:54

If anybody thinks shooting an injured man, crawling through the dirt is part of war, then they're more of an idiot than Bush is. Trying to defend these actions is more pathetic than the act itself..

manesso
mail e-mail: manesso@albawaba.com

Don't be morons.

10.05.2005 03:31

Don't be morons. It's one of a few incidents. I guarantee if any other country occupied Iraq, there would be 2X as much accidents and slayings, at LEAST. North Vietnamese slayed entire villages, Koreans have millions of their own people in labor camps dying, Russians blew the hell out of the Afghanistans in their war, Germany and Russia shot the hell out of eachother's POW's. US may mess up every now and then, but we're a lot better occupying force than most countries are, so stop whining. We've killed less than 200 civilians I'm sure. In WWII, Nazis slayed millions and so did Russians. Vietnamese killed 200 an hour. So I say we're doing a pretty good job over there. Yes, this is a screwup, but how many times have Iraqis killed innocent civilians? A LOT more than we have.

CJ

I'm tired

10.05.2005 16:17

I'm tired of the wasting of lives of American service people.
That said I'm glad we got rid of Saddam, as I am sure a lot of Iraqis are.
First the US is critized for not getting involved soon enough (or not at all) in some of the genocide going on in Africa, then we get involved in stopping genocide in Iraq and that isn't ok. Can't have both ways people.
I'm tired of the waste only in the sense that it is not appreciated and our country is villified by foreign press and the likes of CNN.
I would like to see the US pull its forces out of South Korea, Bush has already been critized for moving 3000 troops out of Korea, but I'm sure he wouldn't be critized for the same action taken in Iraq, why is that?
I would like to see our troops pull out of any base outside of the US, I could care less what the rest of the world does to itself.
If any of you think the act of suicide bombing would stop once there is no troop presence in Iraq, well you must have your head scarves tied a little too tight.

I won't partake in the Europe should be thanking us for not speaking German act, that was different time with different people, and that generation was thankful. Today Europe and the rest of the world doesn't owe us a thing, and we damn sure don't owe them anything.

Please Mr. Bush close our borders, quit giving away my money to people that come here illegally and get free medical care when my fiance can't even get insurance, (oh that's right, she isn't a minority)
I do have a question though, if this country so bad we do more people emmigrate to the US than any other country in the world, and why do thousands of Mexicans risk their live to get here, and why do people from Cuba take an incredibly risky boat ride to get here?
Must be because this such a bad country, yeah that's it.

By the way, the Apache was 2 Km out from the target.

Tony

I'm tired

10.05.2005 20:25

I'm tired of the wasting of lives of American service people.
That said I'm glad we got rid of Saddam, as I am sure a lot of Iraqis are.
First the US is critized for not getting involved soon enough (or not at all) in some of the genocide going on in Africa, then we get involved in stopping genocide in Iraq and that isn't ok. Can't have both ways people.
I'm tired of the waste only in the sense that it is not appreciated and our country is villified by foreign press and the likes of CNN.
I would like to see the US pull its forces out of South Korea, Bush has already been critized for moving 3000 troops out of Korea, but I'm sure he wouldn't be critized for the same action taken in Iraq, why is that?
I would like to see our troops pull out of any base outside of the US, I could care less what the rest of the world does to itself.
If any of you think the act of suicide bombing would stop once there is no troop presence in Iraq, well you must have your head scarves tied a little too tight.

I won't partake in the Europe should be thanking us for not speaking German act, that was different time with different people, and that generation was thankful. Today Europe and the rest of the world doesn't owe us a thing, and we damn sure don't owe them anything.

Please Mr. Bush close our borders, quit giving away my money to people that come here illegally and get free medical care when my fiance can't even get insurance, (oh that's right, she isn't a minority)
I do have a question though, if this country so bad we do more people emmigrate to the US than any other country in the world, and why do thousands of Mexicans risk their live to get here, and why do people from Cuba take an incredibly risky boat ride to get here?
Must be because this such a bad country, yeah that's it.

By the way, the Apache was 2 Km out from the target.

Tony

We stopped an attack

12.05.2005 01:03

We clearly stopped an rpg attack. They were staging their weapons, checking the distance, and finalizing their plan, then use thier truck to pick up a shit load of insurgents. Good thing that Apache blasted the holy fuck out of them!! Hoo Rah!!

Berkie

THEY GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED!

16.05.2005 00:28

If you idiots can't see these "farmers" are uncasing an RPG (rocket propelled grenade) to use upon the Apache, and the Americans, you need to pull your heads out of your asses and see an optometrist! Besides, who plows sand at night?

God Bless the U.S.!

Mike

I WAS THERE

17.05.2005 02:21

You can all complain and speculate as much as you want to, but I was there. Upon clean up, U.S. Soldiers found not one, not two, but THREE shoulder fired weapons designed to take down aircraft. The one that was laid in the field, PLUS two more in the back of one of the trucks. If you pay attention to the tape, you will notice that the man closest to the "long object in the field" tried desperately to pull the item out of the bag as the rounds are impacting. Are you telling me that he chose that moment in time to use his "farm tools"? I'm gonna say not.

Adam
mail e-mail: usarmyair@yahoo.com

Space Rock

27.06.2005 19:20

I believe there is a greater debate going on here.

It is a statistical certainty that a rock from outer space, sizable enough to threaten the survival of the human species, will one day strike the earth. However the catch is we haven't a clue when that will be.

We face larger problems now that we're all only just beginning to understand: potential climate change, global over-population, asteroid strikes. There is a very real threat that these things will catch up with us while we bicker and squable. We need to continue (and improve vastly) our collaboration with one another - human-being to human-being.

This thread demonstrates a tiny slice of the variety of beliefs and opinions out there in the world. Further, it shows the futility of the prospect (for all our debates and arguments) that we might all arrive at agreement on them all too.

American, European, right-wing, left-wing - war-crime or no, we have bigger fish to fry. We need to bring our collective heads together to solve these problems. We have to learn to 'all get along', and we all have to have the maturity to accept the differing beliefs of others.

Easier said than done.

So, we need to work on dissolving borders (in their various manifestations). And this, believe it or not, is not a job solely for politicians - but everyone. We need to look beyond our own country's borders, class-systems and paradigms. We need to see what else is really happening out there in the world, in order to become more accustomed with it. In addition to our own local newspaper, we really should be reading 9 other international ones as well (enter the WWW).

What I'm really trying to say is that it is our individual responsibility as human-beings to educate ourselves about what is going on out there. Not immediately, but over time, the affect this will have will be on our ability to simply Accept.

It is obvious that whilst some posters to this thread understand this notion, many others do not.

World Peace.

---

Oh, and on the subject as to whether this is a war-crime or not, I reserve judgement. I'd need to see more footage from before and after the event.

Marvin

O-kay!

10.07.2005 22:29

ohhhh god !!!!
I cant beleve that a human being can kill a wounded helpless man !!!

Then killing innocent people by exploding bombs strapped to ones self is totally unimaginable, right?

"Wow, do you have a lot to learn in life.

Jerry

Nazi's in Red, White & Blue???

21.07.2005 10:49

For all the U.S. citizens who have posted comments on this Apache killings thread, bear this is in mind. Many of you have stated that the Iraq is an evil regime where people will kill you just for the simple crime of being American. Indeed there is a minority of hardliners in Iraq who will behead you, not only for being American, but for being Western, or sympathetic towards the West. However events such as this, and even worse, have happened far closer to home for you all, in fact on the very soil you call home. The systematic obliteration of the indigenous peoples of North America (people who led a pure life at harmony with the world until we showed up on their doorstep), and their subsequent persecution at the hands of white settlers (from England, Ireland, Holland, in fact Europe) is worse than anything the Iraqi's have done to American citizens. It is on a par with Nazi Germany's attempted extermination of the Jewish people of Europe, and all the enemies of Nazi Germany. Here is an example:

""On the morning of November 29, 1864, 600 Cheyenne and Arapahos camped on a bend of Sand Creek were awakened by the sound of charging hooves. Two thirds of these 600 were women and children as the government granted able bodied men to go east and hunt buffalo to feed their hungry families. Only 35 braves were in the camp. This made the ensuing charge all the more frightening for the women, children, elders, and remaining braves.

So great was the fear of the coming charge that men, women, and children ran from their lodges into the biting cold taking no time to fully dress. The partially dressed Indians began to gather under a huge American flag above Black Kettles lodge (Black Kettle was given the huge American flag and peace medals by Abraham Lincoln and Colonel A. B. Greenwood in Washington only a year earlier and was told that as long as the American flag was above them, no one would be harmed). The braves present surrounded the women and children gathered under the flag. At 8:00 am more than 700 cavalry men under the command of Colonel John M. Chivington and Major Scott J. Anthony, rode in and fired on the huddled Indians from two directions. After the initial charge the US soldiers dismounted and continued the indiscriminate killing of men, women, and children. During the killing unspeakable atrocities and mutilations were committed by the soldiers. Accounts from two white men, John S. Smith and Lieutenant James Connor, described the acts of dehumanization."

According to John S. Smith, Colonel Chivington knew these Indians to be peaceful before the massacre. Smith witnessed, as did helpless Indian mothers and fathers, young children having their sex organs cut away. U.S. soldiers mutilated Native American women, cutting away their breasts and removing all other sex organs. After the Massacre, soldiers displayed the women's severed body parts on their hats and stretched them over their saddle-bows while riding in the ranks. The sex organs of every male were removed in the most grotesque manner. One soldier boasted that he would make a tobacco pouch with the removed privates of White Antelope, a respected elder. Conner witnessed a soldier displaying the body parts of a woman on a stick. The fingers of Indians were cut off to get at the rings on them. Connor remembered a baby only a few months old who had been hidden in the feed box of a wagon for protection. When the soldiers discovered the baby some time later, the baby was thrown onto the frozen ground to die. In going over the site the next day, it was noted that every corpse was mutilated in some way, and scalped.

Two other men, Robert Bent and James Beckwourth were forced to ride with Chivington that morning. They recorded similar images. Beckwourth noted that before the massacre, White Antelope (age 75) ran out to meet the soldiers. He came running out to meet the command, holding up his hands and saying Stop! Stop! He spoke in as plain English as I can. He stopped and folded his arms until shot down. Bent remembered seeing the shooting of a little girl carrying a white flag. He also remembered seeing an Indian woman on the ground whose leg had been shattered by a shell. As she lay helpless, a soldier drew his saber, breaking the arm she had risen in defense. She then rolled over on her other side. The soldier did not leave until breaking her other arm with his saber, whereupon he left without killing her. Bent saw a pregnant woman who had been cut open and disemboweled. Her unborn child lay mutilated almost beyond human recognition beside her. Quite a number of mothers were slain; still clinging to their babies. Such was the scene that cold gray morning at Sand Creek, November 29, 1864."

Just another example of people heavily out numbered and out-armed being slaughtered by 'brave warriors' of the United States. Don't get me wrong, the English have committed atrocities as well, but you all need to have a fair end educated understanding on your country's history before you renounce the rest of the world claiming that the US is whiter than white. I have a mate in the Army as well, and I suppoprt him. So you Americans, your land of the free and brave was founded on tyranny and persecution! I would also like to say to the soldier who is back from a tour of duty in Iraq, you claim to be a warrior, but any cunt with the most basic of training can pick up a pistol, rifle or launcher or some kind and kill people from a distance - real warriors, for the most part, are a thing of the past - the Samurai of Japan, the Knights of the Middle Ages, Roman Gladiators, the Braves of the Cheyenne, and the warriors of the other tribes of North America. One might even suggest that the lowley Iraqi militiaman taking on the 'MIGHTY US of A' is a brave man - certainly braver than the men in this video! Technology will only get you so far in War, the troops are the asset - just look to Vietnam for confirmation!

Alex

Nazi's in Red, White & Blue????

21.07.2005 10:56

By the way, I was wrong to address this to all US citizens - what I meant was to the minority who still seem to behave like the Ku Klux Klan (a bunch of misguided pussies), saying things like 'the only good Iraqi is a dead Iraqi'. I'm half Persian and fail to believe how people can be so uneducated. I suppose it is to be expected from the worlds superpower, that happens to have the most illiterate citizens in the Western world (maybe not any more, but it did?). Once again, my post was intended for the minority of you all, not the decent majority (I hope).

Alex

WOO HOO - KEVIN

05.08.2005 12:28

WOO HOO

30.05.2005 09:20

"WE ARE THE USA BABY THE #1 COUNTRY IN THE WORLD SO BRITS CAN GO COWER IN FEAR AND CALL US WHEN THE GERMANS INVADE AGAIN YOU LIMEY WANKERS. WE RULE EVERYONE DONT EVER FORGET THAT." Kevin.

Hahahahahahah!!!!

KEVIN - You really are a misguided fool aren't you. The USA will not be the worlds biggest superpower soon mate (militarily it will remain so for a bit, but economically it is now no longer). China's economy is growing 3 TIMES faster than yours, yes 3 TIMES!!! They have a better work ethic, somewhat similar to an ant colony. And they are the 'red peril'. The US only got involved in WW1 because you feared your commercial shipping was under threat, and even then only joined in the last year of the war - the reason for not joining sooner was because of politics and, dare I say you yanks were a little tender to be involved. Has anyone ever said that we Brits didn't want your involvement in WWII, or that we were not thankful - I don' think so. Victory in WWII was down to the Russians as much as it was down to the Yanks. You sound like a bit of a coward yourself. You may think that you rule everyone, however think about this :

If there was another world war, then it might possibly involve nuclear weapons, a scary thought. But the USA should be more scared than anyone about a nuclear threat. The old soviet bloc countries, China, North Korea and Middle East Nations such as Iran all have nuclear capability (I think), some of them would certainly be willing to use them on the US (Iran - has thousand of willing Martyrs who will give their lives for such a mission). Don't forget that the USA doesn't even have the most amount nuclear warheads, I believe that Russia still has more than you. I have not even mentioned terrorist cells, Bin Laden's lot, and the others. If one of these groups get their hands on nuclear weapons (which they can easily afford) then you'll find out you don't rule shit! People who have attitudes like you are the ones who make people dislike the USA. I seriously hope terrorists never get their hands on nuclear weapons, which is why this war on terror must happen, but like I said, if they do then you can kiss your 'superior' country goodbye, because major cities like Washington and New York will be destroyed like Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Think before you talk, and take some spelling lessons okay.

I don't want to offend any Americans, I like America and visit regularly, but people like this guy have gotta go!!!!

Jehan

Beware of conspiracy theories, but this is a war crime

15.09.2005 20:45

It was very likely a weapon. We don't know. We have to focus on facts.
Fact: "He is wounded..." - "Hit him! Hit the truck and him!".
This is a war crime, and we have it on tape.

As usual, energies spent on any other speculation only detract from the case and make your argument vulnerable.

Jason Broadrick

Another Vietnam?

22.10.2005 16:52

Iraq is going to turn out to be another Vietnam for America. They can win battles with all their high technology, but winning a wars requires that you gain the hearts and minds of the people. Killing them like this is not going to do that.

cyber_drifter

Apache camera misconceptions

28.10.2005 18:59

The footage referred to by this article (

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/01/284086.html) has been clearly misinterpreted. A few observations:

1)The writer refers to the time of day being mid-morning, though the mission clock shows a time of 16:27 Zulu, which would put the time of day around 6:30 pm, local time. For the time of year this occurred, that would likely have made conditions quite dark. People in Iraq do not conduct business at night during wartime. It's foolish.

2)At the time the crew opens fire, the range finder on the HUD show a distance of 370 meters, placing the chopper at a distance of over 1200 feet from the targets. An Apache in Outof Ground Effect Hover (look this phrase up) is little more than a hiss at that range.

3)Immediately before the crew opens fire, you hear a brief burst from the gun to verify proper function before engagement. The persons on the ground do not react in any way to the gunfire, either taking cover or looking for the source, further indicating the range was too distant to be reasonably discernable. Simply put, they did not know they were being watched and thus their body language would not reflect any attempt at secrecy.

4)Their body language at the begining of the tape, specifically the subject running to the field, indicates they did not want to be seen in possession of the 'object'.

Don't worry, the mistakes the writer makes are honest ones. It cannot be assumed that during a time of war, a subject would be able to make out the sound of a helicopter a quarter-mile away, especially above the noise of a war going on. And three guys meeting in a field under the cover of dark, in a war zone, are up to no good.

Aaron
mail e-mail: Evolutionc20@yahoo.com

US are cowards

29.10.2005 18:31

Who could possibly defend the action of that pilot? Even if it was a weapon which i doubt it was no threat to the Apache. Dont give me shit about getting used to war. Thats murder not war. How can sending a multi million dollar aircraft to vaporise farmers be classed as war. US soldiers are cowards and disgrace their ancestors. What the f*ck is the us doin , what the f*ck do these peopl have to do with 9-11. For all you know 9-11 where american terrorists to give them an excuse to start these so called "wars". They try to justify vietnam and now they try to justify this. I think britain should revoke americas independance on cause of their stupidity. Some day their gonna start something they cant handle not just killing farmers and civilians. Someday the world should call for a war to dissarm america they are the terrorists who massacure civilians, brainwashed from children about how great their nation is, start pre-emptive wars against UN policys. How the f*ck does this protect people at home? These people have seen far worse atrocities than september 11th every day. But no one cares! America has one and declares a war on the middle east to save the world! F*cking retards!!!!

Brian

DUH

02.11.2005 19:25

I did watch the whole video and i did think they look suspicious but dont see why they had to be blown to pieces. They could have been arrested an the weapons disposed of since they are supposed to be there to liberate those people. Further more shooting an injured man on the ground from an apache is hardly classed as war or freedom as americans like to be brainwashed into thinking. Alot of places in us have gangs that occationally shoot at police but this isnt considered a need to send an apache in and blow every one with something that looks like a weapon all over the place and joke about it saying "Smoke em". If the man was a threat to the apache or attempting to throw stones at it id say fine shoot him. But dont have the opinion that the us must be right because its the us and we liberating the people.
What if iraq decided to liberate you in the same way claiming the same things would you just believe them and give your oil and land freely and welcome the choppers blowing stuff up whenever they please. No trial no jury just smoke em?

Brian

battle of britain

03.11.2005 04:12

mangoman,spitfires stoped england being wiped off the face of the planet & they kicked the luftwaffes arse,the battle of britain went on for years,when it was almost over,the americans came over to stick up there flags,apreciated,so shut your box of toys,english pride won it & the royals are germans too & they spraken zi english.

cockney
mail e-mail: yesi67228016200@aol.com

Fuel

04.11.2005 03:21

It seems to me that they are trying to refuel the tractor. I hear there is a lot of sand in Iraq, so you would want to cover everything, fuel pumping mechanisms, even weapons. When the shooter is going after the guy running away from the tractor it does look like the guy buy the tractor is wrestling with a hose. Unless the whole thing was elaborately staged, which I doubt because the "insurgents" obviously have high regard for the crop, notice they avoid driving the truck into the field, these were innocent people trying to make a living. Another thing to look at is the back of the truck. It does appear there is a fuel drum in the back. I think it's hot in Iraq. So, a good time to be driving the tractor would be when it's cool. I dunno. Some of you are right, people do get killed in war, it's no shock. Just as it's no shock when a contractor gets his head cut off.

Blake Link
mail e-mail: hobo_scratch@yahoo.com
Homepage: http://www.murderthegovernment.com

Killed for enjoyment

07.11.2005 07:22

It _was_ clear there was no threat to the helicopter anyone that says there was is making up excuses for the helicopter crew looking at the videa it could have easyly been frammers there was no valid reason for the helicopter engage them there was no immediate threat at all to the crew.

They could have called in a ground unit to investigate what was happening there if they were so concerned to find out the truth but instead they decided to open fire for no good reason at all.

Sad to see air crews within the US army are able to get away with it.

Nick
mail e-mail: nicktaylor@defence.gov.co.uk

Apache video - An Apache pilot's perspective

26.11.2005 02:36

I understand folks having concerns about coalition use of lethal force during counter-insurgency operations. Certainly we have to be circumspect in our use of force as much as the situation allows. What I do know about this particular clip is this. It was taken in the vicinity of Tikrit Iraq. It is video from a Longbow Apache. It was taken in 2003, while I was in Kirkuk. I was a Longbow company commander with the 101st, and this aircraft was from a different division.

Having been on several recons in that area, I can tell you that it is very common for the insurgents to hide weapons in haystacks, fields, etc. There were a number of shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) believed being stockpiled in that area with its being a Sunni majority area, and Saddam's hometown. In fact, that is where Saddam was eventually found. There was a blackhawk helicopter shot down over Tikrit with a SAM. I flew to that crash site to cover the rescue efforts. There were no survivors. I also covered a site where a HET (a large transport used to move armored vehicles around) had been attacked with an IED (improvised explosive device) and was burning right there in Tikrit. The insurgency was very active in the vicinity of Tikrit.

Based on what I had seen in that area, I have no doubt that those were weapons. Whether they were caching them for future use or just dropping them temporarily because of a checkpoint or the nearby Apache, I really don't know. The helicopter was only 400m away. The range is displayed in the video after you hear the pilot tell the gunner to use autorange. There's no doubt that they knew the aircraft was there, but they probably thought that they weren't visible since it was dark.

Whoever pointed out that the items being moved were too long to be RPGs must be quite a weapons expert to be able to tell that from a FLIR video. I'm trained to identify those things, and I fly using the FLIR all the time, and I can't tell that. For that matter, they could have been SAMs of the SA-7, 14 or 16 variety or recoilless rifles or who knows what else. One thing I know for sure, if you watch the guy to the left of the tractor after the first guy gets shot, he's frantically unwrapping one of those items being stowed in the field. If you honestly believe that he's desperately trying to get into a pile of guide poles or farm tools or irrigation ducting, you're delusional. He was trying to extract one of the very functional weapons they were trying to move to fire it against the helicopter.

The last thing I would point out is this. When you're on station in an aircraft, you've got a very limited amount of time to resolve the situation, because you've only got so much fuel. You know that if you have to leave before ground troops arrive, whatever is going on, whatever is being moved, whatever you're trying to prevent, it's a lost cause once you lose contact. The bad guys will get away, and they will come after your buddies shortly thereafter with the personnel and equipment that you let slip away.

It is important that we apply force judiciously. There are times for decisive action and there are times to be patient. Draw your own conclusions about this video. I would issue one simple caution. Be careful about making judgments about situations that you really don't understand.

J.T. Naylor
mail e-mail: jtnaylor64@comcast.net

Fools Gold

28.11.2005 13:41

Some of these comments from the US guys are crazy yous dont seem to care if someones innocent or not or if theres any evidence some of yous dont even seem to care if you kill someone as long as there not US are yous really that brain washed that yous have sunk as low as the real terrorists.

If that was your brother being blow to bits im sure you would be singing from another hymn sheet just becuase someone is not from your country doesnt not mean you can freely kill them.

The excuse "Our troops are in harm" doesnt work anymore becuase with attitudes like some of the ones posted here, its you's that are putting them in harms way you dont crap on people and expect them to treat you fairly afterwards.

I put it to yous that some of your troops are turning in to terrorists them selfs.....

Steve
mail e-mail: StevenMill@army.mod.uk

DISGRACE TO OUR COUNTRY

03.12.2005 04:07

THESE ACTS DISPLAYED IN THE VIDEO ARE A DISGRACE TO OUR CITIZENS, TO OUR COUNTRY AND TO MANKIND. WILL THESE MEN BE DISHONORABLY DISCHARGED? I WOULD DEEM IT APPROPRIATE BUT THAT WILL PROBABLY NOT HAPPEN. NEVERTHELESS, GOD WILL BE THE JUDGE FOR US ALL.

JENNIFER
mail e-mail: jms32inaz@yahoo.com

Welcome to planet...USA

13.02.2006 05:36

At what stage do you start having nightmares that your country is next on the US's hitlist because your form of democracy isnt the same as theirs? The worls map is made up different coloured shapes with a black line around, why dont we accept these lines and all go home to our own countries and stay there for the next ten years and let things cool down. And for F@3K sake USA, the world is not yours to rescue. All may not be right everywhere but thats the way it is...
Bring back the cold war at least that kept them occupied!

Al

Lose-Lose Situation

23.02.2006 20:25

Some of you guys make me sick. You proclaim that the U.S. is destructive creating genocide around the world. As if there is some great plot or conspiracy theory going on here. It’s as if America can never win. We end up in a lose-lose situation no matter what we do. No one ever wants the U.S. to stick there nose where it don’t belong but when things like the Rwanda genocide happen where 800,000 people die in three months. It’s an outrage that the U.S. didn’t go in to save the day. That’s almost 10,000 people a day.

So which is it? Do you want us to go in and try to free the oppressed and give up our resources i.e. food, shelter, and billions of dollars to other countries or do nothing. We go in and were martyrs we don’t go in were hypocrites.

I think most of you need to speak from a more informed position. Do a little reading before you go off speaking about something you know nothing about. Over the years how many lives have we saved? How many countries have we freed? How many billions of dollars have we spent? How many people have we fed? Never mind our deficit, let’s spend billions and billions of dollars not here in the U.S. but across the world why we go broke trying to do the right thing.

Someone said this video is genocide? You want to know genocide? Look up Rwanda or the Nazi’s killing the Jews, Africa and ethnic cleansing. Now don’t get me wrong I was a U.S. soldier and there are a few bad apples but you get those every where. Yes, your government is not perfect. I guarantee there has been something going on in the background that you know nothing about and if you think your government or the people running it are perfect. Then you are fool. However, my point is even though there are a few bad apples among the tree that doesn’t mean we should cut the tree down. The idea here is freedom, to help our fellow brothers and sisters out whatever the cost may be even if it is the few over the many. So as I said don’t get me wrong I don’t think the U.S. is perfect but neither is your country. So before you go throwing stones maybe you need to make sure your house is squared away first, just a suggestion.

As far as the video, again you’re speaking from an un-informed perspective. You have no idea what was going on there. You seen a ten second clip and proclaim to figure out the entire war or situation? I’m glad you are not a defense attorney, a judge, or jury. Or maybe that’s why we have so many innocent people in prison? Because of people that proclaim to figure it out based on ten seconds of information.

Come back to me when you’re more informed and then we can discuss it. Otherwise it would be too much energy on my part to try to explain everything.

Ryan
mail e-mail: q_zodd@hotmail.com

To the Hosts – Censorship?

24.02.2006 17:22

I noticed some of the posts have been deleted. Why is this? Do you edit people’s postings if they don’t agree with your position or support your opinion?

Bill

Bill

lying bastards and thier followers

23.03.2006 07:19

where to begin first off bush is a vile little snake as are rumsfeld and all those neo fuck wits the only right thing is to impeach bush or better still arrest him now today charge him with as many war crimes fraud crimes ect ect as he and all his government have without any doubt commited the death penalty is th e only way they can be fairly sentanced according to law also on the arrest list are halibourton making billions from the murder of kids and women in iraq this war was planned from 1990 since then we have bombed iraq daily to destroy them and weaken them we have brought sanctions on them to weaken them then your presedent has been a conspiritor in the 9/11 attacks to bring us to iraq a weak none runner in any conflict due to 9 years of constant attack from the uk and usa planes bombing anything which satalight servalance has idenntified as a target people want to believe the total bullshit a snake tells you you openly agree to send thousands of troops to murder iraqi people and to die in a war that is the doing of your leaders bush not being the real guy in charge as you have to see beyond what you see in front of your eyes and see the people in the shadows on this war and why they want so badly to continuously stay in iraq a defeated smashed country oil is without doubt the main reason but i would say there remains the sick amoung your leaders who draw great sick enjoyment from the suffering of iraqi people the people in the uk and usa who still want war are the very lowest of all scum and deserve any natural distasters that befall them in full payment for following a lie to bring a war started by thought out by and orchestrated by george w bush dick chainey (neocon ) donald rumsfeld (noecon) wolferwitz (noecon)rice (lying bitch) colin powel (lying bastard) george bush snr (vilest lying oil greedy bastard) and all the faceless coward cia deep cover covert opps wankers you can name we have been led by the bollocks by theese less than human cunts to a place no decent human being could truely say is right just or moral the arrest of all theese people and conviction along with asset sripping and basicaly jailed to await the death penalty for all the obvious crimes they have commited is the only course to take i include all the uk government in this blair and his low snake like lies about total fabricated proof to draw us into this disgusting war all should by any laws be charged with as many crimes as possible to bring lawfully to try to bring any false claims would bring us all to the same depraved level as theese so called human beings for blair stands the murders of all who died in londons bombings as a direct result of his involving us in a war based on lies he told us as has bush and co so stop chatting bullshit ok and wake the fuck up today and bring down all theese bastards they are murdering pigs

john roy demicol
mail e-mail: johnroydemicol@yahoo.co.uk

Just who exactly are the bad guys

10.04.2006 04:28

Even if the guys in the field where combatants the actions of the crew of the Apache Longbow are clearly in breach of the Geneva Convention on the grounds that the last victim is obviously wounded and offers no threat to the helicopter. This blatant disregard for the internationally agreed rules of engagment, not to mention normal morality. The current US administration seems to thrive on ignoring the Geneva convention and expects others to obey them. George Bush and his rotten cohorts, good old dick, donny and condi "Worship the Devil in the name of God". Remember what happens when you climb into bed with Satan George. Funny we don't hear a lot from slimmey Tony Blair about his extreme right wing government about his ethical foriegn policy. Kiss my ass you guys, I'd rather be one of those poor farmers than scum like you!

Nigel Allen
mail e-mail: nigeland flea@hotmail.com

All the time

02.05.2006 21:22

Tell me how many time that when a police officer see's someone running and throughs something away or gets something that he does not engage that person. I see no reason that they should have been running into a field and discarding something and walking back nothing is going on and if you watch the first one running into the field look at the tag swinging on the back of what he is carrying. Does it look familiar to you people? I would have smoked there a** to. Oh yea, they are laying pipe in the field while it is being plowed. The tractor stops because he doesnt want to run over it and the other guy goes back to pick it up. Looks to me that they got what they deserved, maybe not the farmer, who knows about him. Wrong place at the wrong time.

US Civilian

Were they combatants?

19.05.2006 03:14

What I see in this video: Two men park their pickup truck in a field. After scanning the area, one quckly carries a tube shaped object (wrapped in burlap?) a short distance into the field.
There seems to be nothing special about the area in which the object was dropped, other than it will shortly be visited by a tractor. As the tractor arrives, the individual who dropped the object walks to meet him, and the tractor operator then walks toward the pickup truck, at which time he is engaged by the chain gun on the Apache helicopter. What stands out to me, is the behavior of the individual who is then beside the tractor. As his tractor driving friend is hit by the exploding 30mm rounds, he is frantically trying to unravel something that appears to have been bundled in cloth. Since others have offered innocent explanations for the behavior of these three men, I will also offer my interpretation. The object carried by the first man was a re-loadable launcher type weapon. The men in the pickup were in possession of this weapon, but did not have ammunition for it. The tractor driver was delivering additional ammunition for this weapon. When the firing began, the second man hit was frantically trying to un-bundle the rounds for the weapon, in hopes that he could load it and return fire. As the video shows, he didnt have that much time.
As for the killing of the wounded man, I see no justification for it. He was obviously seriously injured from the initial burst that hit the tractor driver. He was then hit again after he rolled out from under the truck, and once more after the smoke cleared from that burst.
thank you for allowing me to express my opinion.

Bill miller

Censorship for all

26.05.2006 21:50

Hey guess what? That wasnt the entire movie. I saw the official footage and it definitly showed the bad guys placing weapons in that field. Thank you very much for censoring that handy bit of info for our viewers. Its good to know that everyone cuts the truth out to make their own point. If you cant get all the facts then shut the fuck up. War is hell, soldiers kill, and people die, deal with it. The men who died in that footage were the enemy, no doubt about it.

Nick
mail e-mail: druszka717@yahoo.com

Some concerns

30.05.2006 18:50

Most of my disagreement with your article comes from this line.

"From the body language of the individuals on the ground, it is clear that they themselves do not feel they are doing anything which should be of concern to a US helicopter hovering nearby."

First, I disagree in general that their body language is comfortable. The man sprints to drop of the object in the field, and the way they continually run and stop and turn around and stop and run and turn around is very unusual.

second, I don't think they could see the helicopter. My guess is that the thermal vision was magnified significantly. Here's another video that might help to bolster that Idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrnQE2WbhGE&search=apache

The way they killed the wounded man from under the truck was both disgusting and unprofessional.

Caleb
mail e-mail: cbelle@artic.edu

No meanin of life for US

30.05.2006 19:28

If they were really freedom fighters(US forgot dis term i guess) they would have made a quick exit and not stroll around. they would have even attacked da chopper(since Apache is not da silent of all choppers). now dey din't do any of dis and still they get killed. like dis many others r being killed and blamed on insurgents(Cover-up like Haditha massacre).

Many americans are so foolish that they still support this president. The Bush Shit says dat we need 2 free dat country and tells loads of stories from movies of hollywood and da next hour da americans r followin him. when da fact is out dat he lied 4 dis war still they support him coz he freed da ppl. well thank u so much Mr. Bush if dis freedom i wud like da country witout freedom.

And i wud like 2 remind u incase u forgot dat Iraq had better lifestyle then 2day. but due 2 da US sanctions dey had 2 live in hell.

Americans should visit arab countries and c da lifestyle coz there is a value of morality ( which da US lost and want others also 2 lose it,by makin porn and distributin around da world) in Arab countries and da willingness 2 guard it.

Freedom fighter

America the Dieing

31.05.2006 00:35

Incidents like this is only the a drop in the bucket of what is to come from the US. Right now in the USA freedom is dieing, or I should say the lie of freedom is being exposed, as it is we have not been free for some time. The Fascist States of America is coming unravled at the seems and like a drowning man will claw at all those around him to ensure his survival. MAKE NO MISTAKE, it is not the will of the people that drives the murderous military or political machine of the United States. And when it is our turn to face a hail of fire from a retaliating people, I will not lift a finger to defend the Nazi government. Rome will fall, I'll smile and roast marshmallows in her embers. The federal government has shit on our freedom of speech, and pissed on our right to assemble peacefully,

http://www.fox12news.com/Global/story.asp?S=4962583 . Next it will be our right to bear arms. Our right to disolve a corrupt government has always been non-existant. We have lost control of our government, our military, and our country. Ichs heil mien fuhrer!

Shane Gibson
mail e-mail: drutchlin@hotmail.com

Stupified Militant America

31.05.2006 01:01

Read some of the comments defending the actions of the Apache crew. Explain this to me you tards...Why are we in Iraq? If you peices of shit ever turn full blown traitor and start attacking us at home ..you better believe we, just like the Iraqies, are going to lay down guerilla warfare on your asses. It's their country, you friken Tards..get the hell out! No matter what they do to our soldiers..you have NO VALID EXCUSE for your actions. We invaded a country that was not a threat to the US.

Shane Gibson
mail e-mail: drutchlin@hotmail.com

you only see and hear what you want to see and hear

06.07.2006 16:08

So everyone thinks this is a Warcrime, huh? If you turn on your speakers, about 3 seconds into the video you will hear gunfire coming from the Apache. Now, if I was a 'farmer' tending my 'crops' and 'irrigation piping' and I heard gunfire, I'd frickin' run like hell.

Is that what these guys did? No, they continued on, doing whatever they were doing. We see one guy running a bit to get to the 'tractor' and whatever might have been placed on it. Was it an RPG? Maybe. We don't have video feed of him placing it on the tractor. Was he running to grab his irrigation piping? Maybe, we just can't tell what it was. What we can tell is that when the first guy gets hit, the other guy left of the tractor grabs something but doesn't get to do anything with it before he gets hit. Any sensible man would have just run for his life, but no, he goes to pick up something hidden by the tractor, possibly a weapon, and for that he gets hit. From the pilots point of view, he was an enemy.

Think about these items...Someone was astute enough to notice the heat signature from the tractor. That means it was running, and probably making a lot of noise. So the fella on the far left probably couldn't hear the first few shots from the apache...you know the ones that occured about three seconds into the video...like I mentioned above.

So a buddy of his, who did hear the shots, runs to him and tells him they're being shot at, and the guy on the far left who didn't hear the shots because he was near the tractor decides to grab his handy dandy RPG that he sat by the tractor. Unfortunately for him, the second fella gets hit right in front of his eyes as he's walking away. Now, the far left fella's really motivated to grab that RPG and use it , but he also gets shot.

Then there's the guy under the truck who's smart, and hides behind both the large metal block of the truck engine and also uses the heat from it to conceal himself, but he peeks out, and gets hit.

None of us know for how long the apache was trailing the truck before the pilots decided to waste them. We're only shown a bit of a video feed, and from that you think you have the right to call a warcrime? Once again, you've shown that you are great at jumping to conclusions. This video does not show us the hours of reconnaissance preceding the final 1 minute of video. This video does not show to what lengths terrorists will go to commit crimes. Nobody saw Rodney King fighting with the LAPD before they finally decided to beat him to submission. That's about the time the camera came out and started rolling. Of course, I'm sure you jumped to conclusions and say that every American Policeman is bad, don't you?

Does anyone know what Jane's Ships and Aircraft book is? It's a book that contains the specs to all the aircraft and ships of the world. Do you know what kind of ships Iran has? The very last war vessel in Iran's inventory are Ski Doo waverunners with a second person holding an RPG. So it's not hard to imagine a terrorist carrying an RPG on his tractor to take out a 'target of opportunity', say a US helo on a routine flight....

So, what do we see on this video? I see three good terrorists (Theyre' 'good' because they're dead now). You see three innocent farmers and a brutal military. I can only point out the facts, it's you who decides to ignore them. You'll only see and hear what you want to hear. Why don't you just go live in North Korea or Somalia, if you don't like America? You probably think those are down right wonderful places, don't ya? Well, it's a free country, so you're free to express your opinion. You're also free to leave.

matthew

what really happened

11.07.2006 09:21

what really happened dot com,

You must be blind if you can't see the guy pull the rpg out of the bag and start to aim it at the chopper. After, I might add he just witness his compodre turned to dust. Oh, yea he thought he'd do some farming after witnessing that.. Your real bright!!!

I guess this is one way to get Inbound Links. Just not a very smart way......

Notice I didnt help..(dot com)

NOLA
mail e-mail: nolaimports@hotmail.com
Homepage: http://www.nolaimports.com/

Wrong time stated

15.07.2006 12:02

The article states "The time of day appears to be midmorning, based on the time display seen on the heads-up display. Military time uses a 24 hour system, there is no "PM" in military clocks."
This is not true. The time in the FLIR camera appears to say 19:25 military time.
This would make it 7:25PM
Why would farmers be out there at night time?

Ron

all this from someone who was never there

08.08.2006 02:58

wow, good job on the commentary. So you, as a journalist can tell the difference between an AK-47 and an RPG? How about an insurgent and a farmer? The Apache was not hovering nearby, the "farmers" had no idea they were being watched, but it was cool how you said all that you did. It was almost like you were right there on the ground with them, telling it from a first person point of view. You are clueless as to what really happened. You have never seen how a relatively calm drive through any town in Iraq can be shattered by an IED. That stands for Improvised Explosive Device, but im pretty sure that you, in your well worn combat wisdom knew that already. The pilots made a call, one that may have saved the lives of how many service men on the ground?? Thats all ive got.
Curt

Curt Diaddigo
mail e-mail: muxbus1553@yahoo.com

Apache video

16.09.2006 22:27

Get your head out of your ass and stop publishing lies to generate controversy! The full video clearly shows weapons being thrown. In your fake ahem shortened version one soldier clearly runs to the weapon and starts to unsheath it when the Apache opens fire. Why would a soldier run for a bag of farming implements or irrigation equipment? You should be truly ashamed and should apologize to the pilots mother, your mother and the rest of the world.

Kirk Pelkey

Great Video

25.10.2006 03:48

Volunteered for my 3rd tour to Iraq; leave in January 2007. None of you know what it's like over there. They are un-uniformed combatants; just coward terrorist pretending to be honorable soldiers, and not subject to the Geneva conventions...period! I've killed many of them in the same situation, notice on the video, how much confirmation we have to get before we can fire...that's the worst part of this whole war.

I can't wait till we have to pull out with our tails between our legs, and having them start killing you dumbass leftist here in the U.S. that read this garbage called Indymedia. I just read a story buried way in the back by the biggest leftist paper in the nation, the New York Times. The story was about how the Border Patrol just found another set of Prayer rugs, and a Koran on the California Mexico border, the third such find this year. Why do you think they are here, to pick fruit? That’s right, there herrrrrrreeee!

Allons!

11th cav pilot

You still don't get it do you.

08.12.2006 02:42

You brits look like you could use another attact so you can wake up! This is a war. We should fight it anyway we can. Our enemy is. I read all of the long e-mails. Do you think people are really reading that far before they can see you are trying to impress people with your long thought out explanations. Join the team or get out of the way. CWE

Chance
mail e-mail: chance@thepooldoctors.biz
Homepage: http://www.thepooldoctors.biz

Insurgent activity

08.12.2006 14:02

I am not commenting on the legalities of what took place but on your interpretation of the video:

The item that was first removed from the vehicle was most likely to be a weapon as they wanted to remove any evidence from the vehicle. The plough could then bury it. The Apache mission would have been the end or final part of surveillance following an incident and not just on a jolly.

The second item removed by the second guy looked about a foot and a half long, possibly a RPG warhead; this was put down away from the first item.

You need to see all footage and be involved in the operation before making wild assumptions and speculation as to the individuals activity.

I take it that you are a wannabe lawyer? - More effort required.

Jimmy

2nd Guy apachi

20.12.2006 08:57

Well it is just discusting what this shows, the second guy to be shot looks as though he was just clearing hay
or something from the back of the tractor.

Michael

Waw-waw

02.02.2007 01:16

Maybe you shoulda been in the states on 9/11 and seen old ladies and little girls celebrating and dancing in the streets. You'd have a different attitude about it then. Do you really think they'd show you mercy? The way they showed anybody mercy? Sympathy? Compassion? It's easy to bitch over the internet. You got the guts to go into combat? Or just enough to sit and piss and moan behind cushy autonomy? I'm sick of hearing it. You couldn't go and protest against Saddam or Bin Laden or Quadafi. I didn't see much protesting going on in Bagdad over all the brutality under Saddam. Why? Oh, that's right - these same guys you're crying for would torture you to death. Flush out your head gear.

so done

quick note

13.02.2007 04:32

hey dude below me, its shiite...pronouced she-ight....not shia

fdgjhrgyj

Let's bomb the Brits!

13.02.2007 23:13

Very noble Chance. Someone disagrees with the party line and your answer is (and I paraphrase) "Maybe Britain could do with another attack".... from you? Because there's voices of dissent you advocate violent attack to teach us ungrateful Brits a lesson? Typical, just typical. I'd better make this paragraph short just in case you get angry at its content three quarters of the way in or you think I'm trying to impress you.
I wouldn't waste my energy.
As to Ron. Ron: whether the corpses in this video ever were farmers is irrelevant. Farmers work at night. Farming is a 24/7 business.
As is war and murder.

Stevie

comments

01.04.2007 03:06

i.m a former uranium miner and what I have seen on this video is in my oppinion totally discusting looks like a video game but we are talking about human life shame on the ones that did this i have saves lifes in the past but this i say again and again shame

gaetan hudon
mail e-mail: bigazie@sympatico.ca

The whole story?

05.06.2007 13:08

This video does not show the events leading up to the shooting. Therefore we cannot judge anyone in the video. I would like to condemn someone here, but I can’t.

Mr. Nolan

I've seen the whole video

04.10.2007 18:28

I've seen the WHOLE entire 12 minute video. You should watch it too before spewing your propaganda.

Two of these guys fired an RPG on coalition forces, cowardly jump into the pick-up truck with the used RPG barrel. The Apache is asked to not engage until they see where the vehicle is going (in order to maybe get a few of their fellow insurgents). The moral of the story is don't play with RPG's in the war zone.

Nice try on identifying the weapon as "Farming tools" for your own agenda. I'm sure you won't post this, as the truth makes you look manipulative and dishonest in your portrayal of this incident.

This is one of the most highly viewed combat videos out there. Don't you think this would be on '60 Minutes' if there was any question as to whether the individuals were insurgents or not.

Get a life.

ev

More about the situation

19.10.2007 22:21

Apache helicopters can hover and watch from a large distance and never be seen by its subject...of course these guys were going about their business, they never knew they were being watched (of what hit them). Thats why the apache is so feared.
Also, what farmer scurries over to an edge of a CROP field and quickly tosses out a pipe (or sticks or what the hell) INTO the field. My grandfather was a farmer andn I know he would just toss garbage crap like that onto the SIDE of the field or in a ditch.

Nuclear Mike

WTF?

11.01.2008 06:49

You say that the object in question was maybe some pipes or farming equipment. I say bullshit! If someone was firing at you, would you run and pull out farm equipment to be used in defense? *Stop shooting or I will hit you with my water pipe*

What is your one sided and complete bullshit of truth come from? Did you fail at boy scouts, wait that is too tough, I mean girl scouts?

patryck

more mounting evidence of war crimes!!!!!

06.04.2010 21:48

Yet another peice of hard mounting evidence of war crimes committed by american officers.
Keep up the good work and lets hope one day justice prevails...

Jeff Hilliard
mail e-mail: jeffhilliard_2@hotmail.com