Subject: RE: Query on UK Book Flagging (the story is not true)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:21:16 +0100
From: QC
To:
Cc:

John

As I guess you suspected the review was codswallop. It certainly
looked suspect when I saw that you had been alerted to the review
by the author of the book himself. Why did he not contact
Waterstones directly first of all and get a statement or rebuttal
from them before approaching you?

I work in Newcastle upon Tyne and use Waterstones bookshops quite
often. There are two "Waterstones" bookshops within 100 metres of
each other in Newcastle. The one in Emmerson Chambers is where I
shop for computing and other technical books.

I was curious to see if the book is interesting and if it has any
professional relevance so, as it had been a lovely sunny morning
here, I took an early lunch break and walked down to Gray's Monument
where these two shops are located.

I enquired as to whether the shop had "Secrets of Computer Espionage"
by McNamara in stock. There were two ladies at the sales desk
(computer books, etc, Third Floor), one of whom has worked there for
years. There was no special interest at all from either to my enquiry.

The book was not in stock but they could order it for me. As the
price was £25.50 I declined. The search/ordering screen was in full
view and there was nothing unusual on it.

I showed the "senior sales assistant" a copy of the review. She was
rather bemused by it and confirmed that no such incident had taken
place in the computer books section nor anywhere else in the shop as
far as she knew; an enquiry elsewhere in the shop for a computer
related book would have been referred to her she said. Neither she
nor her assistant had ever heard of a book being flagged in that way
by Waterstones. They were quite happy to chat about this.

They said that books are occasionally marked as "abandoned" on the
ordering screen which means there is no point in trying to order a
copy. This apparently happens when there is some legal challenge made
in the UK courts against distribution or a serious error has been
found after publication and the book is being pulped.

The book in question *is* available through UK bookshops and it seems
that as far as Waterstones in Newcastle upon Tyne are concerned there
is no substance at all to the story given in the review you cited.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Young [mailto: jya@pipeline.com]
> Sent: 19 July 2003 14:49
> To:  ukcrypto@chiark.greenend.org.uk
> Subject: Query on UK Book Flagging
>
>
> This inquiry from Joel McNamara, author of recently published
> "Secrets of Computer Espionage":
>
> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 22:05:54 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Joel McNamara
> Subject: Secrets of Computer Espionage
> :
>
> The book may be making some people a bit uncomfortable. The
> following review just appeared on Amazon:
[snip]


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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 23:18:14 +0200 (MEST)
From: xxx
To:  jya@pipeline.com
Subject: Secrets of Computer Espionage

This is with respect to " http://cryptome.org/uk-book-fear.htm".

Please keep my contact info confidential. This was sketched out to me by a
guy I knew in the Home Office. It may be hearsay, it may not be. Publish at
your discretion.

First of all, the lady at Waterstones was not *supposed* to tell you that
your details are being recorded. It's all supposed to happen behind the scenes.

Secondly, the procedure here: There is a list of books, and these books are
not kept on the shelves of the major bookstore chains in Britain. Among these
books might be "Mein Kampf", "The Communist Manifesto" or "Applied
Cryptography".

When a customer makes an enquiry about the title, the same response is given
as is given with any book that is not currently in stock: "It's not in
stock, but we can order it for you". If the customer chooses to order it, they
give an address to which the notification of the books arrival at that branch is
mailed. Again, this is nothing unusual.

What is unusual is that this name & address (and any other info) is also
sent to the UK Government: NCIS, to be exact. I'd imagine that the procedure for
online bookstores is even simpler, since there's no need to keep the books
off the shelves. They're simply flagged by the shopping software and
everything happens automatically.

(I'll follow up with an anecdote that will probably make me seem like a
crank. Two years ago I went into a large Waterstones in London, chose "Applied
Cryptography" and "Disappearing Cryptography" from a reasonable selection of
crypto books in the computing section, and paid with cash. A week later, when I
went back to get "Handbook to Applied Cryptography", all the crypto books
had gone, and were never replaced within the two months I went back for other
purchases. Cockup on part of the staff? Who can say! Paranoia on my part?
Almost definitely!)


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20 July 2003



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To:  ukcrypto@chiark.greenend.org.uk
From: John Young
Subject: Query on UK Book Flagging
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:48:40 -0700

This inquiry from Joel McNamara, author of recently published
"Secrets of Computer Espionage":

Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 22:05:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joel McNamara
Subject: Secrets of Computer Espionage

The book may be making some people a bit uncomfortable. The
following review just appeared on Amazon:

-----

It's sales are being controlled by law enforcement in the UK, July 15, 2003

Reviewer: Damien Casablanca from UK

Magnificent book. I've purchased it through my channels a fortnight ago in
the US. I liked it so much that I'd decided to obtain another copy to give
somebody as a present. I happened to be in Newcastle-upon-Tyne , UK , at
the time. So I went to the biggest Watrestones bookshop in the city at the
Emerson Chambers. I asked whether I could possibly order the book as they
didn't have it in stock. The senior sales assistant was very nice and in a
somehow embarrased voice said : "I'm terribly sorry about this but we have
the request from the law enforcement authorities to pass to them all the
details of whoever tries to place an order for the book." And I said that
I didn't understand why. The response was : " There was the special note
on our system saying that every bit of information of whoever wants to buy
a book should go to the law enforcement first. "So , I said : "What are
their going to do with that information?" The response was : "I don't
know, we never had anything like this before." So , I couldn't buy a
copy then and there, or even order it. But I thought for myself : "I was
right about the book. It is a REALLY good one. It REALLY makes somebody
feel very-very UNEASY."

-----

I'm very interested in determining if law enforcement or some other
entity in the UK has indeed flagged the book. Any help in verifying
this with contacts in the UK would be appreciated.

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To:  ukcrypto@chiark.greenend.org.uk
From: MH
Subject: Re: Query on UK Book Flagging
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 16:59:55 +0100

I've just placed an order with Amazon.. No mention of passing anything
to anyone..

Mary

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From: PW
To:  ukcrypto@chiark.greenend.org.uk
Subject: Re: Query on UK Book Flagging
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 00:06:43 +0100

On Sat, Jul 19, 2003 at 04:59:55PM +0100, Mary wrote:

> I've just placed an order with Amazon.. No mention of passing anything
> to anyone..

Yeah, but are you sure they'd tell you? After all, they already have all of
your details. :-)

I'm tempted to go to the local Waterstones tomorrow and see about ordering
it, to see whether they do ask for details...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: JB
To:  ukcrypto@chiark.greenend.org.uk
Subject: Re: Query on UK Book Flagging
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 17:59:19 +0000

John Young wrote:

> This inquiry from Joel McNamara, author of recently published
> "Secrets of Computer Espionage":

[Snip]

Are you sure this is not just some sort of prank to draw attantion to this
book. The scenario described does not seem very credible to me.

jb

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From: OL
To:
Subject: RE: Query on UK Book Flagging
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 18:44:13 +0100

The 'flagging' of books for the security service is by no means a new
procedure. The first time I know the procedure to be been used was in 1966,
when a book called 'Coup', a 'how-to' manual ,was causing the Wilsonian
chickens to flutter about in the coop. All persons obtaining the book
through the public library system were to have their details forwarded.

This might seem to be another reason for promoting anonymity, however,
ordering it under my own name and as a serving Second-Lieutenant ordering
through the military extension of the state library system, never caused me
noticeable harm. No more did it harm the rest of the subalterns in the
regiment in which I was then serving; all of us agreed over a long summer
Pimms session that, on principle, we should all put our names down. I should
add that we had been informally warned to do no such thing.

The publication about '72 of (Brigadier) Frank Kitson's book 'Low Intensity
Operations', that set out the agenda for warfare in the 21st cent., caused a
similar frisson and questions in the House. Its publication and notoriety,
despite the calls from the ruling part left wing, did not prevent F.K.'s
eventual promotion by two ranks to Lieutenant General - requiring
Ministerial consent - and appointment at UK Land Forces Commander. It may
have prevented him from attaining his fourth star and later appointment as
Field-Marshal - a rank to which his contemporary, the less able but more
politically sensitive soldier Carver, seemed to rise with ease.

I believe that the FBI and perhaps others have more recently used the
library system to 'profile' likely difficult customers. Evidence from
Oklahoma to 9/11 would see to indicate the fatuity of this procedure,
However, fatuity never stopped a civil servant from justifying his
employment.

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From: PM
To:  ukcrypto@chiark.greenend.org.uk
Subject: Re: Query on UK Book Flagging
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 19:50:14 +0100

Owen Lewis wrote:
>
> The 'flagging' of books for the security service is by no means a new
> procedure. The first time I know the procedure to be been used was in 1966,
> when a book called 'Coup', a 'how-to' manual ,was causing the Wilsonian
> chickens to flutter about in the coop. All persons obtaining the book
> through the public library system were to have their details forwarded.
>

Owen, can I just ascertain (i) that you are not joking and (ii) how you
know this?

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To:  ukcrypto@chiark.greenend.org.uk
From: John Young
Subject: Query on UK Book Flagging
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:09:03 -0700

>I'm tempted to go to the local Waterstones tomorrow and see about ordering
>it, to see whether they do ask for details...

It would be helpful to see what Waterstones has to say: Joel
McNamara reports that the review has been pulled from the
Amazon website where it appeared. He has asked his publisher,
John Wiley, to try to find out why the review was yanked.

-----

Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:38:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joel McNamara
Subject: Missing Amazon review

This is in reference to the email I sent you yesterday about the
Amazon.com review of Secrets of Computer Espionage where a
reader from the UK claimed that purchasers of the book were
being flagged by law enforcement at a Waterstones bookstore
in the UK.

As of today (July 19), the review is no longer appearing on the
Amazon page associated with the book.

Can Wiley use its Amazon contacts to find out why this reader
review was pulled? In doing some quick due diligence research,
it appears Waterstones is an Amazon partner. Perhaps because
of this relationship, the review, which was originally posted on
July 15, was removed because of unsubstantiated accusations
by the reader.

I'm less likely to put my tinfoil hat on and think conspiracy, but
this is pretty odd (especially considering the subject matter and
political climate in both the US and UK). Could someone from
Wiley also possibly check with a Waterstones contact in the
UK about the reader's allegations?

I'm sure there is a reasonable explanation for all of this, and
hopefully someone will be able to shed some light on it.

-----