As the white wash to cover up who killed Jean Charles de Menezes and why continues. According to the BBC a new account of the murder.
It would appear that Menezes walked into the station normally and only started to rrun after he passed through the ticket barrier when he saw (they mean heard) a train coming into the station. Contrary to earlier police reports that he vaulted the barrier.
It would appear that Menezes walked into the station normally and only started to rrun after he passed through the ticket barrier when he saw (they mean heard) a train coming into the station. Contrary to earlier police reports that he vaulted the barrier.
Well what a turn up for the IMC team of police tracker dogs who have been arguing in the police's case since the moment Senor Menezes was gunned down at Stockwell Tube.
here we get a quote from some dude called Daniel Sandford who states quite clearly that menezes walked into the tube station and even hhad time to pick up a free newspaper. He walked through the tiicket barrier and only started to run when he saw a train coming, well as far as I recall it's not possible to see the trains coming until you are actually on the platform( I lived on clapham road, 200 yards from the tube station, for 10 years). But you can hear the trains coming and a lot of people make a bolt for it after the ticket barrier. The northern line trians 'used' to make a different sound to the Victoria line trains so iif you used the station a lot you could tell if the train was north or south bound and which line it was on.
There fore Menezes actions were totally normal and seems to indicate
that perhaps government health warnings should be prescribed on Londons Underground network. "Running for your trian could seriously damage your health"
Now we get to the much what the police actually said.
1) In the immediate aftermath of the incident, police said Mr de Menezes had been acting suspiciously and suggested he had vaulted the ticket barriers.
that is exactly what I heard on european TV .
2) Police also said the Brazilian electrician had worn a large winter-style coat - but the leaked version suggested he had in fact worn a denim jacket.
again this story was splashed all over the worlds TV and arguments raged on IMC about what the cops actually said.
But here we are almost a month after this guy was gunned down in cold blood and britains national media network is still quoting the police as saying that they had good reason to take him out with eight head shots.
Of course the idea of all this is to blur the event in the general publics minds. If you asked most punters on the street 90% would probably be dead certain that the dead man was an Al Queda trained electronics expert wearing the same turban that Bin London was wearing in the latest disney video release.
there was also a new (to me) piece of evidence involving a community office (whats one of them ?)
The leaked version said Mr de Menezes was being restrained by a community officer when he was shot by armed police, our correspondent added.
Perhaps this is this the red herring designed to discredit all the evidence against the police ..
the BBC article in full
Fears over Menezes death 'leak'
Last Updated: Tuesday, 16 August 2005, 22:36 GMT 23:36 UK
A new account of the shooting has reportedly emerged
Investigators looking into how police mistook a Brazilian man for a suicide bomber and shot him, are concerned over an alleged leak of sensitive documents.
The documents seem to cast doubt over the police's version of the death of Jean Charles de Menezes, shot dead at Stockwell Tube station on 22 July.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) said its priority was to keep Mr de Menezes family informed.
The shooting occurred the day after the failed bomb attacks of 21 July.
In a statement, the IPCC said it does not know where the documents, obtained by ITV news, came from.
Acting suspiciously
BBC home affairs correspondent Daniel Sandford said the leaked documents appeared to be witness and police statements given to the IPCC.
The IPCC made it clear that we would not speculate or release partial information about the investigation, and that others should not do so
IPCC statement
He said the statements suggest Mr de Menezes had walked into Stockwell Tube station, picked up a free newspaper, walked through ticket barriers and had started to run when he saw a train arriving.
In the immediate aftermath of the incident, police said Mr de Menezes had been acting suspiciously and suggested he had vaulted the ticket barriers.
Police also said the Brazilian electrician had worn a large winter-style coat - but the leaked version suggested he had in fact worn a denim jacket.
The leaked version said Mr de Menezes was being restrained by a community officer when he was shot by armed police, our correspondent added.
'High security'
The IPCC would not comment on the details of the leak.
The commission said the family "will clearly be distressed that they have received information on television concerning his death".
Its statement added: "The IPCC made it clear that we would not speculate or release partial information about the investigation, and that others should not do so. That remains the case."
The commission said it operated a "very high degree of security" on all of its investigations.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4157892.stm
here we get a quote from some dude called Daniel Sandford who states quite clearly that menezes walked into the tube station and even hhad time to pick up a free newspaper. He walked through the tiicket barrier and only started to run when he saw a train coming, well as far as I recall it's not possible to see the trains coming until you are actually on the platform( I lived on clapham road, 200 yards from the tube station, for 10 years). But you can hear the trains coming and a lot of people make a bolt for it after the ticket barrier. The northern line trians 'used' to make a different sound to the Victoria line trains so iif you used the station a lot you could tell if the train was north or south bound and which line it was on.
There fore Menezes actions were totally normal and seems to indicate
that perhaps government health warnings should be prescribed on Londons Underground network. "Running for your trian could seriously damage your health"
Now we get to the much what the police actually said.
1) In the immediate aftermath of the incident, police said Mr de Menezes had been acting suspiciously and suggested he had vaulted the ticket barriers.
that is exactly what I heard on european TV .
2) Police also said the Brazilian electrician had worn a large winter-style coat - but the leaked version suggested he had in fact worn a denim jacket.
again this story was splashed all over the worlds TV and arguments raged on IMC about what the cops actually said.
But here we are almost a month after this guy was gunned down in cold blood and britains national media network is still quoting the police as saying that they had good reason to take him out with eight head shots.
Of course the idea of all this is to blur the event in the general publics minds. If you asked most punters on the street 90% would probably be dead certain that the dead man was an Al Queda trained electronics expert wearing the same turban that Bin London was wearing in the latest disney video release.
there was also a new (to me) piece of evidence involving a community office (whats one of them ?)
The leaked version said Mr de Menezes was being restrained by a community officer when he was shot by armed police, our correspondent added.
Perhaps this is this the red herring designed to discredit all the evidence against the police ..
the BBC article in full
Fears over Menezes death 'leak'
Last Updated: Tuesday, 16 August 2005, 22:36 GMT 23:36 UK
A new account of the shooting has reportedly emerged
Investigators looking into how police mistook a Brazilian man for a suicide bomber and shot him, are concerned over an alleged leak of sensitive documents.
The documents seem to cast doubt over the police's version of the death of Jean Charles de Menezes, shot dead at Stockwell Tube station on 22 July.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) said its priority was to keep Mr de Menezes family informed.
The shooting occurred the day after the failed bomb attacks of 21 July.
In a statement, the IPCC said it does not know where the documents, obtained by ITV news, came from.
Acting suspiciously
BBC home affairs correspondent Daniel Sandford said the leaked documents appeared to be witness and police statements given to the IPCC.
The IPCC made it clear that we would not speculate or release partial information about the investigation, and that others should not do so
IPCC statement
He said the statements suggest Mr de Menezes had walked into Stockwell Tube station, picked up a free newspaper, walked through ticket barriers and had started to run when he saw a train arriving.
In the immediate aftermath of the incident, police said Mr de Menezes had been acting suspiciously and suggested he had vaulted the ticket barriers.
Police also said the Brazilian electrician had worn a large winter-style coat - but the leaked version suggested he had in fact worn a denim jacket.
The leaked version said Mr de Menezes was being restrained by a community officer when he was shot by armed police, our correspondent added.
'High security'
The IPCC would not comment on the details of the leak.
The commission said the family "will clearly be distressed that they have received information on television concerning his death".
Its statement added: "The IPCC made it clear that we would not speculate or release partial information about the investigation, and that others should not do so. That remains the case."
The commission said it operated a "very high degree of security" on all of its investigations.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4157892.stm
Comments
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Read also:
17.08.2005 10:38
Guido
"IMC Police tracker dogs"?
17.08.2005 10:51
what an earth do you mean by the phrase "Well what a turn up for the IMC team of police tracker dogs who have been arguing in the police's case since the moment Senor Menezes was gunned down at Stockwell Tube" - that Indymedia has been arguing for the police's role in this incident?
somehow, Sir, i think you must have the wrong Indymedia and it's _you_ who have a case of mistaken identity.
please don't shoot _this_ messenger.
Confused
see also
17.08.2005 11:02
Shot Brazilian 'did not jump barrier and run'
Death in Stockwell: the unanswered questions
Guido
What a bloody mess
17.08.2005 11:07
This is disturbing new evidence indeed. I haven't got a very clear picture of exactly who has seen which source materials though.....exactly what has been leeked to whom.
It is our response to events that is the important thing. Britain is going so wrong and its heart breaking. I was reminded of
I'm scared to visit my own country of origin now. I'm not scared by the "terrorists", but by our reaction to them.
Stewart
Report
17.08.2005 11:18
anon
PsyOps excells as a lying little shit.
17.08.2005 12:14
I never argued "the police's case." I argued only that the conspiracy theories and PsyOps were crackers. I argued that there was no evidence to support anything yet.
That has been borne out by this leak- if it is indeed credible. PsyOps claimed at first it was wrong to shoot to kill terrorists, then it was wrong to shoot suspects, THEN it was an "execution" and then finally it was a "whitewash". He laso argued that the IPCC would fit up the victim to protect its own. Again, this leak, if credible, has proven him wrong. But, he's too stupid to keep a low profile.
So far, it has been none of these things he alleged!
However, unlike him, I prefer to give people a fair trial before presumption of guilt. And still say "If they had reasonable suspicion to shoot, then so be it." I'll wait till all the cards are on the table before I decide whether the grounds were reasonable. Just to sate the absurdly obvious, "I don't support the shooting of innocent civillians willy nilly", but it has to established whether the officer who pulled the trigger did so unreasonably if so and to what degree.
Shooting someone dead who had a table leg in a bag on an anonymous tip off isn't reasonable.
Unlike him, I'm not a paranoiac. I'll bide my time. I like my standards like my malts: single.
magoo
...
17.08.2005 12:40
__________
Mistakes led to tube shooting
11.05PM, Tue Aug 16 2005
ITV News has obtained secret documents and photographs that detail why police shot Jean Charles De Menezes dead on the tube.
The Brazilian electrician was killed on 22 July, the day after the series of failed bombings on the tube and bus network.
The crucial mistake that ultimately led to his death was made at 9.30am when Jean Charles left his flat in Scotia Road, South London.
Surveillance officers wrongly believed he could have been Hussain Osman, one of the prime suspects, or another terrorist suspect.
By 10am that morning, elite firearms officers were provided with what they describe as "positive identification" and shot De Menezes eight times in the head and upper body.
The documents and photographs confirm that Jean Charles was not carrying any bags, and was wearing a denim jacket, not a bulky winter coat, as had previously been claimed.
He was behaving normally, and did not vault the barriers, even stopping to pick up a free newspaper.
He started running when we saw a tube at the platform. Police had agreed they would shoot a suspect if he ran.
A document describes CCTV footage, which shows Mr de Menezes entered Stockwell station at a "normal walking pace" and descended slowly on an escalator.
The document said: "At some point near the bottom he is seen to run across the concourse and enter the carriage before sitting in an available seat.
"Almost simultaneously armed officers were provided with positive identification."
A member of the surveillance team is quoted in the report. He said: "I heard shouting which included the word `police' and turned to face the male in the denim jacket.
"He immediately stood up and advanced towards me and the CO19 officers. I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side.
"I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting. I then heard a gun shot very close to my left ear and was dragged away onto the floor of the carriage."
The report also said a post mortem examination showed Mr de Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder, but three other bullets missed, with the casings left lying in the tube carriage.
Police have declined to comment while the mistaken killing is still being investigated
__________
"Surveillance officers wrongly believed he could have been Hussain Osman, one of the prime suspects, or another terrorist suspect."
I guess PsyOps will say this is bullshit?
"The documents and photographs confirm that Jean Charles was not carrying any bags, and was wearing a denim jacket, not a bulky winter coat, as had previously been claimed."
claimed by whom? Do we have an official police quote to that effect? I know there were eyewitnesses claimed that they even saw wires...
"He started running when we saw a tube at the platform. Police had agreed they would shoot a suspect if he ran."
It all sounds like a monumental fuck up so far, that will make things even more difficult for an already belaegured SO19. Wouldn't be my choice of method to "soften up" the public on shoot-to-kill.
But hey, what do I know I don't have all the top secret data that PsyOps has access to.
magoo
dear confused
17.08.2005 12:41
i never agreed, and thankfully for the future of our country nor did a lot of readers who felt moved to respond.
but it would be interesting to see some of those militant defenders of the police's right to murder come out now and apologise for their dangerous naivety.... or is it still just fine to slip slip slip into a police state where an official killing on the tube is quite acceptable?
hello?
anyone there?
wondering
wondering
17.08.2005 12:46
magoo
Dear wondering
17.08.2005 14:01
He said disturbing things. Notably that the man got shot after he had been pinned down. When he was not a potential threat anymore. I think it his crude account of a man shot five times after he had been pinned that did so much to provocate public opinion uproar.
This Mark Whitby account cannot be dissociated from the whole episode.
As there is now a photograph of a dead man wearing a denim jacket on the press, claimed to be De Menenzes, it would mean Whitby is a liar working for a psyop.
But I do not think that is the case because I listened to his interview and it rings the truth to me.
I think there has possibly been two murders : the man in front of Whitby and De Menenzes.
For me Whitby should be invited on TV and all that should be confronted and sorted.
gazubal
perhaps
17.08.2005 15:27
wondering
wondering
17.08.2005 16:04
I'll state again: I still favour the idea of shooting suicide bombers five times in the head to ensure they do not detonate and kill multiple innocent people.
I do not support the indiscriminate shooting of civillians.
That clear enough?
Would you really prefer a mode of absurd pacifist policing that would result in mass murder?
magoo
Doesn't change the validity (or otherwise) of shoot to kill
17.08.2005 16:36
I don't think you read carefully enough.
There are three possible scenarios about the shooting:
1. The police made an honest mistake. (Ie. they had reasonable suspicion but they were wrong.)
2. The police made an unreasonable mistake. (Ie. their suspicion wasn't reasonable.)
3. "Don't believe the PsyOps" - the police deliberately shot an innocent man for reasons which we're not yet privy to.
I don't think many people, even here, really believe option three. IT COULD BE TRUE!!! But there isn't any evidence to suggest that it is. If it emerges that it is or is likely to be the case, we can deal with it as it happens.
So that leads us to one of the other two options. Who decides? The IPCC report will be published. It's most likely that a case will eventually be brought to court. It will be heard in public and anyone who wants to appear as a witness for the prosecution of the police officers I presume has already got in touch with De Menezes family's lawyers. They haven't exactly kept a low profile. That is commendable.
The jury will make its judgement. Legally, I'm happy to leave it at that, either way. The "court" of public opinion will come to its own conclusions based on the evidence that is presented.
None of this has anything to do with the validity of shoot to kill. STK isn't "random murder" by the police. It's making difficult judgements in the hope of protecting innocent members of the public. It's acknowledging that in some situations you will have to use lethal force against suspects and that sometimes, tragically, you'll get it wrong.
If you don't believe in STK under any circumstances, you must believe that an armed police officer should not, under any circumstances, shoot a criminal suspect they believe to be an imminent and serious threat. As much as I imagine everyone is sympathetic to De Menezes's family and realise that it could be any of us that is wrongly, inadvertently killed, I haven't noticed a massive public revolt against the principle of STK in general. Have you?
I'm happy for the STK policy to stay in place. It's a legitimate topic for debate. It needs to be well supervised. Armed officers need to have high integrity and be exceptionally well-trained and briefed. Officers that appear to have injured or killed _unreasonably_ should have to defend themselves in court.
If you ask the question, "Should the police be allowed to shoot anyone they like?" you're always going to get the answer you expect. But that isn't the question people that are interested in the balance of safety for the public are asking. It's just the question that people with an axe to grind against the police/government/state are asking. That's why it gets a good hearing here and practically nowhere else.
Zorro
kind of overview of articles on the killing
17.08.2005 16:50
Guido
FAO: lying shit posting in my name...
17.08.2005 17:40
I can't find any direct quotes regarding his running and vaulting the barrier or wearing bulky clothes. All those seem to be attributed either indirectly (via correspondents quoting god knows who) or to eyewitnesses.
magoo
A Liar Lies Even When He Tells The Truth
17.08.2005 18:28
We now know that entire scene was made up.
If they're willing to fake such a story, and only admit so when leaked documents hit the media, what else are they lying about? They LIED about the threat posed by Iraq, in order to start an illegal war of aggression for profit.
Now, they want us to believe in a dire threat from "ze terrorists", and Bliar has used these incidents to seize for himself powers that the courts had denied him for four years.
But what really happened on 7/7/21? The Government has been unable, or unwilling, to support its Conspiracy Theories with video evidence, and everything they've offered us is suspect, easily planted.
I think it's time they put up or shut up.
Evidence?
leaping to assume the best
17.08.2005 19:15
damn it I'd have thought that by now, when it is so clear that some police not only killed but also lied repeatedly and disinformed concertedly about what happened, maybe some of those defenders would be thinking again
maybe some are, but holding quiet for now while they work it out..
for those employed or employing themselves STILL to defend random murder on the tube
yeah if you open your ears and eyes there are plenty places where people don't support the shoot to kill policy. people I know from every race, walk of life blah blah blah are in a kind of shock about
1 the unjustified war
2 the resulting terrorist attacks and
3 the authorities' response
and no I don't live in an activist bubble or get all my info from imc.
am only hoping that with enough quiet chats with friends and family and nice cups of tea we'll eventually work out a way to start facing up to a changing world and disempowering or making sure the 'authorities' use less terrorisiing tactics...
and lest I get a lecture about what would I do with a suicide bomber about to blow - jean charles was NOT a suicide bomber, and no reasonably intelligent person would have concluded he was in the circumstances. and I still do not believe that idiots should be roaming free with guns on our streets and stations
wondering
FAO: Anyone (including Magoo) looking for quotes
17.08.2005 20:26
It has been quoted on other posts on this site.
I CANNOT find any links to footage of this on the net. If anyone can it would be much appreciated.
However see below. A statement from Sir Ian Blair which indicates he does not really wait until he knows the full truth before speaking out although, to be fair, he did not wish to say much about the shooting before any inquest as evidenced by his appearance on Question Time a couple of nights after the shooting. I wonder why?
Assuming the quote I have made on channel 4 news to be true then the question that begs to be asked is, if Sir Ian "understands" the situation as quoted did he get his information from his very own police officers or from the eyewitness reports, some of which have even more farcical versions of the events than widely reported, from the news?
From ITV.com (linked at bottom)
Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair has said the shooting of the man at Stockwell Tube station was "directly linked" to anti-terror operations.
Sir Ian said his officers hunting the bombers were now facing "previously unknown threats and great danger".
Scotland Yard said: "A man was challenged by officers and subsequently shot. London Ambulance Service attended the scene. He was pronounced dead at the scene."
What Scotland Yard have said here is untrue. The man was NOT challenged by police officers. They merely pinned him down and shot him. Unless the pinning down is perceived to be a challenge?
And from the Times (of all papers!!)
The Met said in a statement this afternoon: “We believe we now know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by police on Friday 22nd July 2005, although he is still subject to formal identification.
”We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005. For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets.
”The man emerged from a block of flats in the Stockwell area that were under police surveillance as part of the investigation into the incidents on
Thursday 21st July. He was then followed by surveillance officers to the Underground station. His clothing and behaviour added to their suspicions.
His clothing added to their suspicions? What, a denim jacket?
His behaviour added to their suspicions? I can't say I read the metro myself but it's not worth shooting a man over it! Or maybe he was supposed to vault a barrier? I suppose he did get on a bus........but then he got back off it ALIVE. Surely this would reduce suspicions against the man?
I do hope this is sufficient to satisfy Magoo. Should it not be, then I'm afraid I have already spent more than enough time tying to educate him.......
Truthful Alan
e-mail:
morningbell@boltblue.com
PsyOps
17.08.2005 21:24
17.08.2005 19:28
"Magoo", those correspondents were quoting sources within the London Police Service and Bliar Government."
____
Um, the press have been known to embellish. Also, most of the things you claim came from eyewitnesses interviewed by the media... and also the police no doubt.
____
" Journalists don't just make this sort of thing up, and this was the official police services version of events.
The initial reports also said that "police reports say witnesses saw wires protruding from his bulky jacket, as the police chased him into the station shouting 'Stop, Stop!!'". "
_________
Go provide links to official police statements then and prove me wrong! But you can't because you know I am right in that you just take everything in the media to be coming from the mouths of your notional conspirators.
___
"We now know that entire scene was made up.
If they're willing to fake such a story, and only admit so when leaked documents hit the media, what else are they lying about? "
____
"They LIED about the threat posed by Iraq, in order to start an illegal war of aggression for profit. "
_____
And now you are admitting defeat by citing something wholly unconnected and descended into your usual armchair rant...
_____
magoo
Policing
17.08.2005 22:04
(source
If you can shoot a suicide bomber in the head then do it. I would. Trying to organise a whole team of people to go around looking for bombers you know are somewhere in the general populace is a different ball game.
However mistakes happen, it seems that the police and public were unprepared for this operation. The police felt they were under tremendous pressure to stop any further attacks. This continues to impede their operational effectiveness as they may be able to prevent some attacks but they simply don't have a chance of preventing all of them. The most effective way of preventing attack is in my opinion to act in a way so that people don't want to attack you.
The second attacks coming on the same day of the week rose psychological fears similar to thought modes seen in national lottery players. I expect this was calculated. The following huge policing efforts on Thursdays took resources away from other times and did not help the mental state of the police force, or public.
We should have a better foreign policy, apologise for our illegal war, prosecute those responsible, repatriate and carry on. In the mean time Britain will just have to accept a few attacks, just like those traffic accidents. Probably like traffic accidents death from such attacks can never be wholly eliminated.
Its not worth fucking up Britain.
Stewart
Truthful Alan
18.08.2005 08:07
"as I understand the situation the man was challenged and refused to obey police instructions."
Okay we have THAT much. I guess to be fair we'll have to wait till we get the other IPCC testimonies.
The point I'm making is that PsyOps is attributing everything and anything to the police and like you, I can't find very much at all. Most of teh stuff seems to be media eyewitness interviews and speculation. How dare I say the media ever make shit up!!!
My suspicion is that the knew very quickly that they had the wrong man, hence the arrest of the REAL suspect in Stockwell soon afterwards.
It is alleged that Ian Blair wanted and inquiry "delayed" and that contrary to rumours STK was NOT the operational MO. Again, wait & see for further testimony.
All in all, I believe the police fucked up an Ian Blair tried to avoid getting his arse kicked out his confy chair by telling the police to keep stumm (hence only very vague press statements) and he tried to get inquiry buried.
I seriously doubt Ian Blair will survive this if it does transpire that a spotter left his/her post unattended to take a piss (or perhaps even just fucked up and lied about that... again wait & see ).
In my mind it looks like poor comms between units. The ARU possibly stormed the train in response to an alert to a "positive ID". For all we know there may have been others at other addresses around London being marked by plain clothes officers.
I'm keeping in mind that all we have so far is one small (unverified) part of a jigsaw.
If this was as suggested elsewhere an excercise in softening the public up to summary justice, then I can't think of how they could do a worse job... except maybe by employing Reliance and shooting JK Rowling by mistake.
PsyOps seems to be oblivious of the contoversy that already surrounds SO19's trigger happy career. But he's never been particularly bothered by anything that stands in the way of prejudice.
magoo