I have been doing a little research in the Indymedia e-mail list archives to find out why Indycymru was removed from the list of IMCs without explanation.
Read on.
Read on.
Have a look at the Bristol IMC e-mail list for more info on this question. The IMC e-mail lists can be accessed from the "mailing lists" link at the left of the UK Indymedia frontpage or more directly from:
http://lists.indymedia.org/
It seems that a founding member of the Bristol IMC, freelance journalist Tony Gosling, has been complaining about a clique of Indymedia admin volunteers manipulating passwords to exclude him from Indymedia administration because he had complained about Newswire posts being hidden in an intolerant and unaccountable way. When a member of Indycymru, Ilyan, defended Gosling on the Bristol IMC e-mail list, the link to Indycymru on the UK Indymedia front page was removed shortly afterwards because he was "branded a loony", alleges Gosling.
Here is a durect link to a posting from Gosling which alleges this.
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-bristol/2004-April/001507.html
Is this the real reason, why Indycymru was removed from the list of IMCs?
I don't know Gosling or Ilyan, and have no particular brief for either of them, but I think that Indymedia should have been more transparent and given an explanation on the UK Indymedia front page when the Indycymru link was removed.
My previous post, and a reply, on this subject is here:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/05/30255.html
And in general there is too much censorship of relation to Newswire posts--too many busybody admin "volunteers" hiding posts for no valid reason, apart perhaps from grinding their political axes. Racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-working class, and other blatently oppressive content must not of course be given a platform on indymedia. But apart from that, readers of Indymedia are all big boys and girls and are quite capable of making their own minds up about the worth, or otherwise, of Newswire posts. They don't need thought police to do their thinking for them--thanks very much. Let the conspiracy theorists and left political parties have their say.
http://lists.indymedia.org/ It seems that a founding member of the Bristol IMC, freelance journalist Tony Gosling, has been complaining about a clique of Indymedia admin volunteers manipulating passwords to exclude him from Indymedia administration because he had complained about Newswire posts being hidden in an intolerant and unaccountable way. When a member of Indycymru, Ilyan, defended Gosling on the Bristol IMC e-mail list, the link to Indycymru on the UK Indymedia front page was removed shortly afterwards because he was "branded a loony", alleges Gosling.
Here is a durect link to a posting from Gosling which alleges this.
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-bristol/2004-April/001507.html Is this the real reason, why Indycymru was removed from the list of IMCs?
I don't know Gosling or Ilyan, and have no particular brief for either of them, but I think that Indymedia should have been more transparent and given an explanation on the UK Indymedia front page when the Indycymru link was removed.
My previous post, and a reply, on this subject is here:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/05/30255.html And in general there is too much censorship of relation to Newswire posts--too many busybody admin "volunteers" hiding posts for no valid reason, apart perhaps from grinding their political axes. Racist, sexist, homophobic, anti-working class, and other blatently oppressive content must not of course be given a platform on indymedia. But apart from that, readers of Indymedia are all big boys and girls and are quite capable of making their own minds up about the worth, or otherwise, of Newswire posts. They don't need thought police to do their thinking for them--thanks very much. Let the conspiracy theorists and left political parties have their say.
Comments
Hide the following 34 comments
Correction of erroneous link to my previous post
15.04.2004 15:12
The correct link is:
Fozzy
Unrelated issues
15.04.2004 15:24
Indycymru never went through the new IMC process - as such they are not 'officially' a indymedia centre. They were at one time talking about going through the new IMC process and at that time they were linked to as a 'prospective IMC', they have since given up on the process (as far as i know) and therfore the link was removed.
As far as I know the timing is just coincidence.
Mayler
e-mail:
mayler@linuxmail.org
See the UK IMC Process list for more info
15.04.2004 15:41
There were also some other threads about this the same month.
This is the proposal that resulted in the link being removed, there was a consensus on this:
Chris
Indycymru is not Indymedia
15.04.2004 15:42
To me that is surely the essence of an IMC site. To me it appears to be just another alternative news web site that uses Indy in it's name.
That's not enough to be considered an IMC
steve
Closeness of dates just a coincidence then?
15.04.2004 16:13
The proposal to remove Indycymru from the list of IMCs came soon afterwards on Friday March 26th 2004.
Just a coincidence?
Fozzy
Are Kangaroo courts the way to deal with a complaint against someone?
15.04.2004 17:23
This appears to be the key thread in relation to Gosling's case:
Kangaroo courts don't seem like a reasonable way to deal with complaints aginst someone. See for example:
Bristol IMC has some explaining to do and should immediately organise a properly convened
hearing before a panel which is INDEPENDENT of any of the conflicting parties. Full regard should be given to "due process" in considering Gosling's case. He absolutely MUST be allowed to defend himself at the hearing. Even bourgeois "justice" allows for that! The procedure put forward by Gosling sounds reasonable.
Unless Bristol Indymedia does so, it will damage the reputation of Indymedia as much as anything that Gosling may, or may not, have done in terms of psoting web-links to dubious "conspiracy" sites. I repeat that I have no personal knowledge of, or brief for, Gosling.
Fozzy
Hey Fossy
15.04.2004 17:53
I dont know any of these peopole but i can see that they are trying to sort it out
and you are doing your utmost to make things worse. There is no cover up or kangeroo court.There is rather endlessly banal discussion about it on the list (the place where the [imc process] discussion should be)that is open to public reading and participation. What do you hope to achieve by highlighting it here?
c.
Gosling rubs the elite up the wrong way
15.04.2004 18:34
keep going Tony G!!!
Captain Wardrobe
What price no hierarchical posts?
15.04.2004 22:10
So much for all the sanctimonious claptrap about not promoting "hierarchical" organisations!
How much more hierarchical is it possible to get than kicking someone out of an Indymedia "collective" without even an attempt at a proper hearing? Without notifying the accused of any charges and without any recourse to a formal disciplinary procedure or right of appeal?
It just goes to show that where there is no formal, democratically elected structure, there is no accountability. Informal cliques, jockeying for control behind the scenes, arise and establish themselves as unelected, and therefore unaccountable, hierarchies. At least in formally elected democratic structures, leaderships can be removed by a vote at an annual or specially convened emergency conference. But how do you make an informal clique accountable that simply grabs and hogs admin passwords to itself?
This very week you have censored one of my Newswire posts: "Rail union RMT supports new anti-war coalition RESPECT" without any explanation, but I assume on the grounds that it is a partially concerned with reporting an event concerning a "hierachcial" party.
See:
As in the case of Gosling, you did not inform me of the "charges" against my post or against RESPECT even though I complained on the UK-Features list.
In what way is RESPECT undemocratic? You should either put up or shut up. RESPECT is guilty until proven innocent in your eyes it would seem.
If you were consistent about not reporting hierarchical organisations, you would have very little news to report. All human organisations are hierachical to one degree or another, either formally or informally. The real issue is not about hierarchy. Hierarchies, in the form of elected officers, the democratic delegation of power, are inevitable. The idea that there must be a state of permanent assembly is absurd, ridiculous and simply not possible. The challenge is to make hierarchies accountable and that can only be done by the formal election of leadership bodies and building in constitutional rights to recall them.
YOu are really are just a hypocritical clique of tin-pot despots aren't you.
Chris Edwards
A misconception worth discussing (alternative vision)
15.04.2004 22:14
Posting to the Cymru site is open to anybody willing to create an "identity" for that site. This is NOT a violation of anonymity since nobody knows which real human is associated to an identity > and of course a real person could "register" more than one identity there, pretend to be more than one person just like they can on any indy site.
What does this do? It prevents "forgery", protects the right of any poster to post under his or her chosen (unique) identity. Because face it, if somebody else can post messages falsely purporting to be from YOU than your right to post has been interfered with. And every so often we DO see this sort of "attack" on one of us.
Now I am not suggesting that all sites should adopt this method, but it at least is worth discussion. My two cents is that requiring people to choose and post under an "identity" is neither a violation of anonymity nor reduced openness of the right to post. If somebody says "NO -- to me my rights include blocking some other poster from being understood by stickign up false posts appearing to come form that person" -- SORRY -- but that is NOT "open publishing".
Mike
e-mail:
stepbystpefarm mtdata.com
keep it open
16.04.2004 00:54
the trolls
the psyops
the spooks and
the plain old weirdos [that'll be me]
always remember there are people learning ,
younger, less experienced...
if you don't give them the oppoptuntity
to be fucked over by at least one of these
and learn from it....which i beleive is the best way...
then how is anyone going to get the 'rub of the grain'
and get to know each other?
think about it...
Captain Wardrobe
I will try to be as clear as possible
16.04.2004 09:18
How much more explaination do you need?
guidelines
recommendations for Chris Edwards
16.04.2004 09:42
two weeks ago you mailed even more venomously than in your comment above to the features list, see
you only answered with a cut'n'paste job from
maybe you need to argue a bit more sophisticatedly if you want to convince people that frequent, and volunteer on this site. you seem to come from a socialist perspective, so i'd recommend you read up a bit on recent socialist thought that goes further than anita_job's 'revolutionary party'. a start could be this interview with stefan mertan, see
check out the oekonux site anyway, you might learn something.
as your arguments come straight away from anita_job, i assume that you must be convinced of the necessity of a 'revolutionary party'. if that's true then please tell us which party/union/organisation you are a member of, and how much they pay you, if they do. or do you get relieved from your revolutionary duty of selling papers by the evidence that you post on this site?
once you declare where you're from politically, you could point us as well to the publicly available communication of your party/union/organisation so that we all can get information on how decisions are made there. please note that this thread only is possible because indymedia makes its communication publicly available. if you can show us such transparency of your party/union/organisation then i'll take your mentioning of democracy more serious.
regarding your primitive arguments on 'hierarchy' i'd recommend you read 'tyranny of structurelessness', see
if you're not ready to engage in a positive way - or even better, do some work (you seem very so keen) - then i recommend you leave this site alone.
"You never changes things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete" -- Buckminster Fuller
andi (one of imc london)
e-mail:
andi@syndicate.org.uk
Kangaroo court
16.04.2004 09:45
Unless Bristol Indymedia does so, it will damage the reputation of Indymedia as much as anything that Gosling may, or may not, have done in terms of psoting web-links to dubious "conspiracy" sites. I repeat that I have no personal knowledge of, or brief for, Gosling. " Fozzy
Hear hear. Several posters to the Bristol list have asked for this, but been ignored or insulted. Then the whole topic was completely dropped. I have no respect left for Bristol Indymedia because of this case. Bristol Indymedia do appear to be controlled by a couple of people with their own agenda, and Indymedia should be looking into this internal rottening and taking steps to protect against this sort of Clique Control in the future.
"There is no cover up or kangeroo court." c.
Did you actually read any of it? There was a kangaroo court, the decision was made at a secret meeting by an unknown group of people (some of which had personal problems with the 'defendant') without hearing any defense or indeed any evidence.. When the decision was posted to the mailing list, one BIMC member who had actually been at the meeting even said himself that certain Conclusions reached had not happened at that meeting. Then anyone who disagreed with the way things were done were insulted and ignored. Weight was thrown around to make sure people dropped the subject.
Is Indymedia planning on taking any steps at all to find out exactly what happened here?
random
andi
16.04.2004 09:58
are all posters to Indymedia now required to declare "where you're from politically"? Are we all to demonstrate "transparency of your party/union/organisation" in order for you to "take your mentioning of democracy more serious"?
"if you're not ready to engage in a positive way - or even better, do some work (you seem very so keen) - then i recommend you leave this site alone." - andi
I take offence at that statement. Are you assuming that everyone who doesnt agree with you is a slacker, and we should all f. off?
I dont think you're engaging 'in a positive way' either.
This is a simple argument - was Bristol Indymedias treatment of Tony Gosling fair? No. How can it be done in a fair and sensible way? What is Indymedia UK going to do about it? This sort of thing will happen again, wouldnt it be a good idea to develop a fair way of dealing with it?
random
random
16.04.2004 10:27
i'm not asking everyone to 'declare where they come from', i ask that to Chris Edwards as he mailed to the features list with accusations, had then replies but answered with a link to a ML site. after that he pushes this thread into a debate on editorial guidelines. so i ask him to argue more specifically.
regards the 'treatment of mr gosling', i don't think it was unfair but would first wait for any bristolians to reply. there is a long history... i'd recommend to read this mail on the bristol list:
anyway i agree that formalised structures for conflicts should be established.
andi
bonkers
16.04.2004 11:13
is that if you link to Alex jones
or David Icke
or espouse reading 'interesting' or provocotive material
then you get labelled a racist...
how are we supposed to know what the enemy is?
if we can't open our minds enough to accept
different opinion and allow others to do the same
we become a monitored mindmeld of
robotic pseudo political jargon...
The only thing this seems to acheive is
cliques of political demogogues
sitting in ivory towers
accepting only what they enforced
in the first place...
Go to Sherman Austins site
www.raisethefist.com
all sorts are encouraged to voice thier
opinion...not all of it is PC
but it is out there...in the open...
monitoring/enforcing/censoring
IS MIND CONTROL
It serves only the gatekeeper of the
operation that is the 'left' or 'right'
break free of the clique
don't be afraid...
of being annexed by the small minded ...
trust yourself to know what is dangerous information...
ps
Gosling sounds as if he is a bully though!!!!
maybe he's a victim of mind control too...
Captain Wardrobe
um i am bristolian
16.04.2004 13:12
Bristol Indymedia have done a great job of showing us all how NOT to resolve internal disputes. Will Indymedia UK look at this case, and come up with a way of resolving this problem, and also a process to resolve any future disputes?
*(I havent its just an example)
random
plus
16.04.2004 13:14
random
this is all really frightening
16.04.2004 14:09
Someone posts a disruptive post that is basically all about an internal matter which should have been dealt with in internal meetings, and there are 10,000 fucking posts about it. And few people can be really arsed to read all about your dirty laundry.
so it frightens me that people seem more concerned with watching themselves masturbate in a mirror than actually CHANGING THE WORLD.
baby doc
wotevA
16.04.2004 15:34
yes there are more important things we should be getting on with. meanwhile the man at the top does whatever the fuck he wants because, hell, we're all much too busy to care about the way things are run.
maybe if we had been watching the man in power the world wouldnt be in this mess. but we were all too busy caught up in our own concerns to give a shit who was in charge, what they were doing, whether it was responsible or just. so are we now going to let the same thing happen here in Indy space? or are we going to take an active interest in how the political structure of indymedia is formed and structured?
see, our political system is screwed, our media is messed up. here we have a media we can use, that we can trust. or can we?
thats not a question i want to be asking myself every five minutes. i want to trust indymedia. and for that to happen i need to know that they are FAIR.
random
we had no fair process- but are developing one
16.04.2004 16:10
Yes absolutely - Bristol indymedia are developing a process in response to this:
"thats just it - on the mailing list for bristol indymedia several people asked for a fair hearing for Tony Gosling. After the secret trial, again more than one voice complained about and was offended by the whole process. We were shouted down, and ignored."
Simply not true- I assume that you are 'random justice' in which case I have spent considerable time replying to the issues that you raised (anonomously) on the list.
"An Indymedia run by small cliques that decide in secret who can be involved and what gets published according to their own agenda,"
Indymedia sites have to be maintained by someone, basically those that turn up to the well advertised open meetings- what else do you suggest?
"Bristol Indymedia have done a great job of showing us all how NOT to resolve internal disputes."
1,WE HAVE NO PROCESS FOR DEALING WITH CONFLICT
2,The conflict goes far beyond indymedia it is a complex longterm dispute that we 'should' have tackled at the begining, but has festered for far too long.
3, which is why we are now developing a process to deal with conflict.
4, Any process that we developed in response to this issue would have been open to accusations of 'unfairness'- "you have designed this process to exclude me" type of arguements.
PS. Random seems very informed about the whole dispute considering he has never met any of the bristol indymedia collective, perhaps you should come along to our next meeting and you could give us your thoughts on where we went wrong.
PPS. the above comments are mine and mine alone- I do not represent the collective.
mayler
e-mail:
mayler@linuxmail.org
hum
18.04.2004 01:19
The link you give 'we are developing (a process)' - that was a suggestion that was never answered on the mailing list. fair enough, you may have discussed it further at a meeting, so why not let BIMC users know the outcome?
TRANSPARENCY. Thats what I suggest. Simply being open and honest about the decisions taken. Taking those decisions in an open and honest way. Thats my problem with this whole bloody subject. It has not been those things, Open Honest Transparent.
Noone took the time to answer mine or other peoples concerns. Simply repeating the verdict with no further explanation (or evidence) is not satisfactory. If this had been done with any decency, there wouldnt be any argument. I dont know Tony Gosling, maybe he is a total git, but he deserves to be treated FAIRLY. On one hand he is to be outcast because he called someone Zionist in an email, yet at the same time actual threatening emails are sent to him by another BIMC member and this is explained away as a 'private issue not BIMCs concern'. Before the 'trial' it was publicly decided NOT to cover this issue at that meeting, yet the next day the topic had been done and dusted. Tony repeatedly, before the 'trial', asked for the opportunity to defend himself, and he was not given it. People involved in deciding his future at BIMC were emotionally involved in the case, which on its own should make the verdict void.
Perhaps if this had been done properly, the same verdict would have been given. And I and others would not have any problems with that. But the fact is that this was a secret unannounced trial with no (specified) evidence, no defence allowed, and elements of the 'jury' had a conflict of interest.
Is this going to be looked into in any real and transparent way? Am I ever going to get an answer to that question? No, we cant be bothered; No, we don't care; No because we dont like him; No because its not our responsibility; Yes, we are looking into your complaint .. Just an answer would be good. Stop this constant dodging.
random
Now on Bristol Indymedia newswire
20.04.2004 14:11
fozzy
Homepage:
http://bristol.indymedia.org/newswire/display/15509/index.php
Article hidden
20.04.2004 14:49
your posting to BIMC
see here for more info about them
BIMC volunteer
American Free Press "antisemitism"
20.04.2004 16:06
This is the 'anti-semitic' comment for which BIMC 'volunteer' has censored the BIMC article - interesting how the evidence of the IMC sharks falls at the first post.
"Too many American politicians have treasonously betrayed the American people by blindly supporting the leading terrorist nation on earth: Israel."
Clearly to be anti-Zionist is a thought crime in this IMC.
fozzy
utter nonsense
20.04.2004 16:19
They prove that AFP is anti-Zionist and not anti-Semitic
just follow the links to see
spirit of fozzy
oh come on
20.04.2004 16:47
random
can you hear it?
20.04.2004 22:47
the bell is ringing Indymedia......if you do not demonstrate transparency and fairness, if you remain in mutual back slapping cliques, if you carry on hiding intelligent and relevant posts because you personally have a different opinion to that of the author, if you carry on the witch hunts like in the case of Tony Gosling, if you carry on labelling innocent parties as "racist" "fascist" or "right wing nutter" when it is totally unjustified ............
then that bell will be sounding the death of IMC
alice
Death?
21.04.2004 08:06
If you want an IMC that's run differently, start your own. No one's stopping you. Then you can set your editorial policy however you like.
Jon
Facts
21.04.2004 16:36
Fact 2 - The decision had absolutely nothing to do with links to far-right websites. It was because of his failure to co-operate with the collective.
Fact 3 - The decision was because on numerous occasions his behaviour failed to show even the most basic level of co-operation, including giving interviews as a journalist claiming to represent Bristol Indymedia where members of the group were attacked. Where was the chance for the rest of the collective to give their side of the story there?
Consider reading the minutes of the meetings before making accusations. Not even Gosling is suggesting that his removal from the collective had anything to do with links to far-right websites.
Finally, every IMC site has a slightly different editorial policy. Bristol requires that news has a local connection, simply so that it doesn't replicate what's already on UKIMC.
If you feel you have a better editorial policy, come along to the meetings where we'd be delighted to listen to and consider your views.
We also welcome anyone who would like to become an administrator of the site. This simply requires you to turn up to three meetings and agree to abide by the guidelines and work in a co-operative manner. See you in Bristol!
IMC Volunteer
lies
22.04.2004 13:07
FACT 2 - "failure to co-operate with the collective" is ironic given that he was purposefully excluded from the meeting where this discussion happened. The collective has since failed to co-operate with its own readers on this issue, refusing to explain its reasons in any way that wasnt just "well i dont like him". Tony Gosling tried several times to engage with his aggressors on the BIMC mailing list, and was repeatedly attacked.
FACT 3 - is also a lie. On one occasion he consented to be interviewed by a local student for his students paper. This student himself has said several times that some of his article was his own opinion based on the bristol mailing list, rather than on anything said by Tony Gosling, and it is impossible to ascertain which parts ARE directly from Tony. This student, who wrote the offending article, has himself been ignored by BIMC, when he has tried to explain this. This student put an email to the entire BIMC mailing list and Tony was the only person to answer, he also posted his article to BIMC before it was published elsewhere, and the article was also pulled and not included in the student paper. The rest of the collective had ample opportunity to answer to this article. The guideline that states that an individual shouldnt talk about Indymedia without permission is a new guideline, brought about because of this situation, and Tony Gosling would not have had any idea that there would be a problem with it at that stage. Besides which, throwing someone out because they are slightly critical is hardly the best way for an IMC to behave.
We have also been told that an anti fascist group would not work with Sheffield IMC because of Tony Gosling - and a member of Sheffield IMC has since denied this, on one of the IMCUK mailing lists. This is one lie among many, misinformation spread to gain a specific result.
Im sick of the attitude given that to enquire why BIMC has behaved so terribly, is akin to supporting the far right, or being Tonys best friend, or being Tony himself. This is a similar situation to being against the Iraq war and idiots claiming that you must support Saddam. Get a fucking grip.
random
reply
09.07.2004 15:28
Random said:
FACT 1 - is a complete LIE. several times before that particular meeting we were assured that Tony Gosling would not be discussed, and a seperate meeting would later be held to deal with the issues surrounding him and Ian.
My reply:
Who's this 'we'? I've never met you at any of the meetings? Tony did arrange to have another meeting with another BIMC person to try and calm the situation - but this was not discussed with the group and not communicated with the rest of the collective - how we could act on info we didn't have is beyond me.
Random wrote:
FACT 2 - "failure to co-operate with the collective" is ironic given that he was purposefully excluded from the meeting where this discussion happened. The collective has since failed to co-operate with its own readers on this issue, refusing to explain its reasons in any way that wasnt just "well i dont like him". Tony Gosling tried several times to engage with his aggressors on the BIMC mailing list, and was repeatedly attacked.
My Reply:
See above. Tony chose to assume that because of his private discussion with another BIMC collective memeber that it was not going to be discussed. As a collective, we actied collectivly at an open meeting which Tony was inviated and knew about.
Random wrote:
FACT 3 - is also a lie. On one occasion he consented to be interviewed by a local student for his students paper. This student himself has said several times that some of his article was his own opinion based on the bristol mailing list, rather than on anything said by Tony Gosling..etc
My Reply:
At a meeting with Tony he was challenged as to is the direct quotes the student had written that were attributed to him were what he had said. He did not distute the accuracy of the quotes attibuted to him. On the basis of these direct quotes was did this point come down against Tony.
Random wrote:
Im sick of the attitude given that to enquire why BIMC has behaved so terribly, is akin to supporting the far right, or being Tonys best friend, or being Tony himself. This is a similar situation to being against the Iraq war and idiots claiming that you must support Saddam. Get a fucking grip.
My reply:
The far-right links were not the reason Tony was asked to leave the group. He was condemmed by his own behaviour - nothing else.
BIMC Vol. Tom
Nationalism
25.04.2006 10:19
The sixties and the Thatcher years english welsh worked together in political campaigns. Plaid Cymru split between those who were active in Westminster, and the Saunders Lewis(fascist) wing. Romantic english incomers who were welsh learners were more welsh than the welsh and captured the formal bodies in wales. UNA in Wales was captured by atlantacists, cold war warriors. they marginalised and wexpelled left leaning activists.The LP in Wales was taken over by the Blairites and is now a demoralised rump. BUT AMS and MPS slipped through as Blair did not consider Wales to be important. Peter Law,despite the backdoor manipulation by George Wright left leaning MPs survive but are marginalised. Tower Colliery people taken off the LP candidates list.Go through the list of active left wing trades unionist active then and see where they are now. The imposition of all women short lists was used to get rid of capable candidates from the left both men and women.Hattersley was the hit man with Mandelson.
CND Cymru was taken over by nationalists, so much so many members asked to pay their subscriptions to the UK cnd.There are few of these activists still active, they influenced indymedia wales, which indymedia felt breached their inclusive policies, hence the split.
What is important is that recruits to mi5 and six are trained at UCW Wales, they are set to infiltrate all progressive bodies in Wales as part of their training. So nobody is what you see, the only way to cope with this is with openess and honesty the more we share the easier it is to marginalise the divisive and disruptive.
jan
e-mail:
oldlabour@hotmail.com