Edinburgh's Forest Cafe under threat
imc uk | 07.12.2010 19:18 | Free Spaces | Social Struggles
The Bristo Place property is currently for sale and in a planning dispute.
Now the Forest Art and Event Space collective is running a fundraising campaign [ info pdf] to buy the building [ Ryan's report]. The Forest Art and Event Space started in 1999 in a small shop at the Grassmarket primarily as a collective of artists, but quickly became much more. It hosted a street party and the Independent Media Access Centre during the G8 protests in 2005 as well as supported grassroot political film screenings [Dan's account] and events such as the Argentina Autonomista Tour, activities around the "Smash Nato" protests, Painting with the Zapatistas, The Lost Film Festival, Food Not Bombs and much more such as punk gigs, feminist, video activism and climate change weekends.
Main Reason for the bankrupcy of the EUS seems to be the financial advice of David Duff, former Hibs chairman, who nearly brought the football club into administration, too, and who had been jailed for property investment fraud before [ analysis ].
police in front of IMC at Forest Cafe
imc uk
Comments
Hide the following 27 comments
What a loss
09.12.2010 12:47
Jamie J
We'll get over it
10.12.2010 13:01
"We've lost your merchandise and we're not going to pay you for it"
Using people on benefits as slave labour through private workfare companies.
Ring any bells?
What a loss indeed!
Edinburgh Resident
Can I chip in?
10.12.2010 14:06
I even took an Iraqi war-protestor to talk there to find no audience. The staff had removed the A5 advert and had instead chalked the event up on a blackboard out of sight. The same speaker got a huge audience in Glasgow.
The PC area was a mess, little tech know-how and gear that was constantly pilfered. Before I knew what IM Scotland were like I donated computer gear to them via the Forest volunteers, since the downstairs was locked up, but they just pocketed it, so they even stole from you
For the past years it has become a club, handing out venue space and grants to their own friends and lovers, and to hell with local activists. It's false claims of being a punk venue are laughable, the local punk scene loathe the place except for the handful of public school punks.
It is perhaps best as a physical symbol of the declension of activism in Edinburgh, the short-cutting of protest which your own local Kollective contributed greatly to and which makes this blatant advertisement sadly appropriate.
Prove me a liar, name one decent action that survived the Bristo Forest. It's demise will hopefully be a lesson to future endeavors as a lesson in what can go wrong when a small group get their heads up their own arses.
Danny
TRUTHS ABOVE
11.12.2010 01:04
lots will have happy memories of the place during G8 - i spend several nights on the lash there, great times, but that was not really what the place was about. full of wankers most the time.
ALIBI
where da money at
13.12.2010 22:37
I would suggest that any business running at a loss is poorly managed.
I also note that there has been a large amount of fundraising
coupled with a rise in foreign trips, jaunts etc on the part of the forest management.
I would like to know where the fundraising details are being kept and when they will become publicly available.
psychedelic warlord
Political activists in Edinburgh will be fucked if we loose the forest.
14.12.2010 17:12
They hosted convergence space for the anti-NATO protests, which wouldn't of happened had it not been for the Forest, who came under repeated pressure from the police and council to kick us out. There have been many fund raisers for the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan, as well as queer mutiny's and DIY festivals. Autonomous spaces in Edinburgh, free from corporate control, are disappearing. Most of the venues that used to be used by political activists now charge massive fees and have very restrictive insurance policies due to becoming festival venues.
The city is being gentrified, and the Forest is one of the last places in Edinburgh city centre that you can go to events for free, can go without being subjected to pop music and horrible advertising, where you can use the toilets without being a customer, can get vegan food, read anarchist books, and put on an event for free. They are hated by the council and police for this, and constantly get fucked for it. The amount of crap they get from the authorities, and yet still keep going, is inspirational.
It's not perfect, but then us anarchists who rarely put in any effort to help the Forest can't expect a group of artists to make a political space for us. Those of us who regularly organise in Edinburgh will really miss this place when it goes. The miserable key board moaners won't notice it, because they don't have to try and find venues, because they don't do fuck all. People would be best to ignore them, everyone else in Scotland does.
Fabbri
free art IS political
14.12.2010 17:37
xray
"because they don't have to try and find venues"
14.12.2010 18:47
Free screening of 'Manufacturing Consent' and 'The Corporation'
Attendance >130
Number of Forest/IM-S present 1
2004 Forest
Iraqi Activist Talk
Attendance 0
2005 Brass Monkey
Free screenings of a remastered copy of FTA brought back from Iraq.
Attendance >60
Number of Forest/IM-S present 0
2006 Granton Warehouse
FREAK collective art show
Attendance >300
Number of Forest/IM-S present 0 (although they did try to smear this as paedophillia)
2007 Bannermans
David Rovics, Atilla the Sotckbroker, Tracey Curtis
Attendance 100
Number of Forest/IM-S present 0
2008 Portobello Beach
Screening of 'Outfoxed' and 'Iraq For Sale', punk beach party
Attendance 150
Number of Forest/IM-S present 0
2009 Filmhouse
Free UK premieres of 'Rethink Afghanistan' plus 'Iraq for Sale'
Attendance 65
Number of Forest/IM-S present 0
Don't fucking pretend to be the scene Fabbri, you don't even know where the scene is...
Overblown sense of your own importance
Free spaces Vs Capitalism
15.12.2010 00:00
Peacelover
comment war
15.12.2010 18:52
@danny: get a life, or a new hobby anyway
pfunk
Pissants not peasants
16.12.2010 01:07
The truth that a shit little capitalist-con venture advertising here under the guise of being 'under threat' has a long history of being 'under threat'. It's not the first time the Forest publicised far and wide that it was 'under threat'. The last time it threw this hissy fit was in April 2009 to pressure the licencing board to get an alcohol licence to cash in more. Although like every capitalist venue not permitted an alcohol licence in an area already saturated in pubs and clubs and drunks, it charged a corkage fee. BYOB pay us 50p. You were permitted to drink a beer that you brought if you paid the Forest 50p, even if the can cost less than that. What a shining example of a 'free' space, not. So this is what the Forest sank to through greed and hypocrisy:
"You were shouting in the face at the band members that you stole the microphone from. If you spoke to them instead of shouting at them you would have discovered that they attended the rally. After your annoyance when those band members shouted back at you, you jumped off the stage and bumped into surprise surprise, my SOBER partner. You then proceeded to shout in his face calling him some 'macho punk'. You would not stop! My partner told you to go away and you continued to shout at him right in his face. He put up his hand and gently pushed you to back off. Remember you were in his face anatagonistic or what? You then made out that his push was worse than it was. Around seven feet you claimed. Then you claimed he stamped on your face. Remember you were seven feet away. Anyone that knows Richie knows he has got small legs (not seven feet in size). Anyone who knows Richie knows he is broad and a stamp on your face in his boots would most certainly have resulted in severe injuries to you. I think you would still be lying there. But you know and I know and all the witnesses know you have made this up to sell your argument. Anyway after he was jumped by all your friends. They tried to push him down 60 stone stairs. Incidently, this was all witnessed, your not that good. The guys all threw him out with one guy shouting 'the next time I see you, your a dead man'. My partner has had injuries, which included, bleeding fingers nails, sore neck and cuts and bruises above his eye. You are out fighting against war and then you and your fellow mates attack a sober 43 year old family man who has been a member of the punk scene since you were no doubt in nappies. "
Exit, stage left
response
22.12.2010 20:00
Re: the above incident; the Forest have always been clear that the perpetrator described above was not in fact a volunteer or paid staff member of the Forest. Its easy to make allegations without proof on message boards, its one persons word against someone else.
People who are involved in the Forest do not expect everyone to like it or agree with everything it does. That is all.
arctic
e-mail:
arkticcircle@hotmail.com
Further response please
23.12.2010 16:15
How about being a bit more open at this juncture too and reveal the true state of your accounts? I would be interested if you listed all the grants you have paid out each month compared to the amount you are currently fund-raising for.
Danny
response
23.12.2010 19:01
I chose to respond to the comments above about corkage. I would agree with you that in the scheme of things it does not seem an important issue. I do not represent the Forest Cafe, work there or even live in Edinburgh. I have been involved with it in the past and think that what it does now is generally good. I tried to provide some clarification on how the Forest operates, no I didn't talk about what the markup on consumables is. My intention was to be clear on the fact that the Forest does pay a substantial rent and raises money to pay it, since there was criticism above of how it operates.
As far as publicly available accounts go, as far as I remember there should be accounts to view from previous years if you contact the Forest. I don't know, but I doubt that the 09-10 accounts have been completed yet, I guess they are due in in Jan 11. There is info on grants that have been given out, how much and who to on the website, not sure what you are getting at here.
Thats a shame that the event at West Port was poorly attended. I'm not sure why adverts for it were taken down, sounds like a mistake.
I'm not sure where the quote about the Forest not being political comes from... often people seem to think it was started by art students which is not the case. Or what 'greed and hypocrisy' is being referred to. The Forest Cafe is trying to fundraise to buy a building to exist in the future, it is a fact that its current situation is 'under threat' since the building is for sale and I'm sure those involved are grateful for the article above.
Regarding last years licensing situation I don't know the details so cannot respond. Whether what goes on at the Forest is part of one 'scene' or not I couldn't say. The Bristo building has been put up for sale before, so it is true that the Forest was 'under threat' in the past. Hope that is useful. Best wishes
arctic
The world is under threat, not the Forest
26.12.2010 11:59
cyrus
Substantial Rent or Peppercorn Rent
28.12.2010 22:22
With regards to the corkage charge/ alcohol license. Nick Flavin stated that there existed a covenant placed on the building when purchased by the EUS restricting the use of the building for the sale or consumption of alcohol (I think the Adventists may have something to do with the clause when they sold the building to the NMS for the purpose of a library.
Apparently EUS had been reliably informed that between 50,000 and 100,000 pounds would have been a fair market rent with an alcohol license.
I can't find any accounts for the Forest online so could someone who knows the figure (Arctic perhaps?) tell us what rental the Forest currently pays.
The failure of the Forest to pay anywhere near market rent had been highlighted by the EUS as contributing to their financial difficulties early in 2007.
What was the Forest paying EUS for their current home?
Bollinger Boyo
response
30.12.2010 12:37
Personally, I don't particularly want to join in analysing the demise of the Settlement, which of course is extremely regrettable. Myself and many others who have worked with the Forest and EUS for a long time are gutted by the impact this will have on the various organisations under its umbrella.
I would agree that if Bristo Place did have a permanent alcohol licence then this would probably signifcantly affect the commercial value of the building, as well as other licencing/ capacity issues which currently significantly restrict the use of the full building. I think its fair to say that when EUS purchased Bristo it was envisaged that the building as a whole would generate more annual income than it actually did, for various reasons.
Also, I think most of the time the Forest just does what it does, and tries to provide a free venue that is useful to activists and other groups. I guess it irks some people when there is a fundraising campaign... most people involved in the Forest don't claim it is the be all and end all in Edinburgh, but have invested enough effort in it that they want to see it continue. We don't control who uses the space, I don't really get people's beef with the fact that students and whoever else goes there.
Matthew
What is a Free Space that charges 50 pounds per hour called? The Forest?
30.12.2010 21:40
Bristo Hall, upstairs at The Forest, available for private meetings, workshops, and small events. The hall capacity is 120 people.
Hire Rates:
Mon - Thur:
10.00am – 5.00pm - £15 per hour
5.00pm – 10.00pm - £20 per hour
10.00pm – 3.00am - £50 per hour
Fri, Sat, Sun:
10.00am – 5.00pm - £20 per hour
5.00pm - 10.00pm - £25 per hour
10.00pm - 3.00am - £50 per hour
A deposit is required for all bookings. The hall is unlicensed, so alcholic drinks cannot be sold. Reduced rates may be available on request for other voluntary organisations, N.G.O’s, charities and University Societies.
PA Hire: We cab also provide a PA for a further £60.
If i want to put on a gig on a Fri, Sat or Sun evening with 3 bands first band onstage 9pm evening finishing by midnight, I wouldhave to hire the hall from 5pm till 1am including getout for equipment giving me hall hire costs of :
335 pounds including PA if all bands and getout finish by 1am.
NO door charge, corkage fee charged by forest and the event organisers are down 335 pounds for a free venue holding 120 people.
335 pounds is bloody expensive for a free space please explain!!!!
Bollinger Boyo
reply
31.12.2010 00:39
Perhaps it is a bit confusing, although I think the website fairly clearly refers to 'private' meetings. The Forest itself does not put on 'private' events, and if you want to put on a public event at the Forest you will not be charged. Hope that clears it up.
Matthew
Confusing??
31.12.2010 03:06
here is the link:
Anyone else confused?
Bollinger Boyo
It's all went a bit Richard Branson
31.12.2010 09:44
Matthew -the rent was around £22k for a section of the building
You can buy a cafe in Gorgie tommorow for 20k or rent it for 6.5k a year. Crap probably but you could buy one each year cheaper than that in other parts of the city and have a network rather than a single basketcase. The cost of running you suddenly puts all your self-proclaimed 'goodworks' into perspective? How much did RAWA earn that is directly due to the Forest support? A few hundred pounds? Certainly less than the grants you pass among yourselves. Doesn't that shame you at all? Aren't your supporters willing to take a short bus-ride to visit you?
£22,000 per year is substantial and far from a peppercorn but that space could be let for far more. How much money are they hoping to raise to buy the building? Cos that'd be a fair few charity gigs just to pay for the rent. I guess it does irk me that such a large fundraising campaign is headline news on Indymedia, or that is falsley portrayed as a 'threat'. Why don't the Forest publish their accounts online since they have the begging bowl out?
Matthew -I don't really get people's beef with the fact that students and whoever else goes there.
You don't, do you? Let's be honest though, it's Edinburgh Uni students who go there. If there were 30 students there on an afternoon, chances are 29 of them would be Edinburgh Uni. It's their buidling, it's their entire chunk of Edinburgh. Even in terms of students, there are other universities and even colleges in Edinburgh which for the most part will never have heard of the Forest. To me, it doesn't seem that progressive a model or plan ignoring the flaws of the place.
It was a mistake for the Forest to move there because it is so rooted now that it considers a third move a 'threat'. If the 'west port' Forest had a sign up saying we're saving up to leech off the Uni then I wouldn't have tipped. It's current incarnation is not just a lie, it makes a liar of it's former self.
Danny
reply
31.12.2010 13:29
No it hasn't gone Richard Branson
I don't want to sit here all day debating the meaning of words like 'threat', as I have already stated, given the situation with the Bristo building, it is fair to say that the Forest's current situation is 'under threat'
It is frustrating though when things are quoted which have never been said eg 'goodworks'. There are drawbacks to fundraising in this way, and I accept some people don't see it as the right way to operate; you write a list of things that the Forest has done, and then people make their own interpretation of your motives and state it as fact.
Yes I am aware that from the 80s onwards, many local Edinburgh people were pushed out from the city centre through gentrification, rising rents fuelled partly by an influx of students, many coming from the south of England and benefitting from a lower cost of living, as well as Tory and New Labour social housing policies which has continued since then.
There were a fair number of ECA students who came to West Port, and there are a fair few Edinburgh Uni students and other students who go to Bristo Place, nowhere near 29 out of 30 though. Contrary to reports elsewhere, Bristo was never owned by Edinburgh Uni. I'm not going to begrudge anyone for being a student though.
I agree there are other models and other options the Forest could take, and that its not good for organisations to get too attached to a specific building.
As I said I will see if there are accounts that can be put online.
Bollinger I answered your query to the best of my knowledge above. Private hire of other sections of the building is not at the core of what the Forest does, maybe this could be clarified. If you continue to rake through the website for mistakes you will probably find some, things get mixed up from time to time.
The information on who grants have been given out to is on the website.
We needed to move from West Port because there was poor sound insulation, to the point that unamplified music or films played at speaking volume were disturbing the neighbour; the opportunity to move to Bristo came up after extensive attempts to move elsewhere in central Edinburgh, we knew there were risks to stepping up the size of the project; what else can I say, having been involved in the Forest 2000-2003, there are some things I would do differently if I was involved now, but in my opinion it is not a 'lie'. Hope that is useful information.
Matthew
Forest - Its a Jungle out there!!!!!
31.12.2010 14:01
An example of this was the letting of Wilkie House each year to Karen Koren for the Gilded Balloon. They paid commercial rental rates and EUS kept bar profits. These funds helped support worthwhile projects.
When purchased for 600k the original plan had been to place Stepping Stones in the building somewhere along the way it would appear the model of the EUS was corrupted from worthwhile projects to providing subsidised arts venues for a select committee and their friends and lovers which now has spawned
"a hairdressers which charges 15 quid for a gents wash n cut"
Is Snip and Snip a private venture paying rent to the Forest? If so how much? Or is it a Forest Venture generating funds for the collective? either way as a charity with its bowl out its time for transparency.
As regards repairs to the fabric of the building, I have never seen a landlord who would allow a commercial tenant to keep a building in such a state of disrepair. The "graffitti" painted on the original green tiles around the stairs in the building is frankly bordering on criminal and those toilets are akin to something out of trainspotting. There is damp everywhere.
Apparently EUS directors would have loved to evict the Forest and get commercial rates but as many of the EUS volunteers were Friends of the Forest and seemed to fell that EUS owed them a home they were stuck subsidising it by up to 50,000 per annum. in the absence of accounts we can only accept your figure of 22k for part of the building, it seems to me you are using the whole building. Which parts don't you pay for? The toilets??
If as you claim Mathew that the prices being charged clearly on your website were set by the EUS, how much income was generated by the hall and how much did EUS get??? Surely renting the Bristo Hall out for the festival would have brought in much needed funds but the there is the Forest Fringe - how much rent does it pay EUS for the hall?
The Forest claims in its presspack to have spawned Octopus Diamond, The Bowery and The Roxy Art House. Octopus Diamond didnt pay its rent and was evicted by the EUS, the Bowery was actually in the Roxy anyway but that white element cost a million pounds. EUS should never have bought it knowing the Forest cost 600k for 20 grand a year rent. If I had been responsible for these failed ventures I wouldnt boast about them.
It appears that a failing charity has been led down a path of investing around 2 million pounds buying properties to be run as arts venues by the Forest and their friends and its a bloody disgrace.
Shame on the Forest from pretending to be an open community space, censoring any awkward questions, hiding their accounts, and blaming everyone but themselves.
I gather that The Lot in the grassmarket, another charity decided that having a venue wasnt a good use of funds, and didnt the big red door go out of business as well.
I think the Forest should read the writing on the wall - pack up you've ridden the EUS pony till it died!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pandora's Box
reply
31.12.2010 16:49
Your comment reads to me as rumour mongering, 'Apparently, the EUS directors...' etc
Your facts are wrong eg you state Octopus Diamond were evicted when this is absolutely not the case. I fear you have got confused with another unrelated tenant at this property.
Matthew
Fact Not Rumour : EUS subsidised The Forest
01.01.2011 18:35
If you want cash you should be open and honest about the roads that led you to the situation you are in. Just because comments are posted critical of certain aspects of the way The Forest is run there is no need to dismiss them as irrelevant.
Its sad indeed that rather than answer any valid points I raised Matthew chooses to see if he can find any errors in my comment to focus on.
Matthew,the use of the word apparently does not make my post rumour mongering, I was reading from EUS annual accounts and statement from 2007 which states that the EUS committee accepted the strategy of gaining commercial rents from their building portfolio and to this end were negotiating a rental of Bristo Halls with five interested parties who were all willing to pay more than 22k for the building.
Rather than answer any of my questions Mathew chose to accuse me of rumour mongering.
If you follow this link :
You find the following comment by an ex employee
"During my tensure at EUS, two financial things worried me in particular: the lack of rent being paid by Tom McAleer, who was renting out Wilkie House for an unsustainably large rent and the purchase of the former church that was rented out to the Forest Cafe"
From the comments, it seems former members of staff of the EUS had concerns about the effect on EUS finances of purchasing of The Bristo Halls and leasing them to the Forest Cafe way back before it was purchased.
The only other error you noticed Matthew was I was confusing Octopus Diamond with Left Bank/ Cowgate Central. I dont know much about either of these venues. I presume that you do if The Forest helped set up Octopus Diamond. I gather it wasn't open very long ( less than a year??) so was hardly successful.
Am I correct in saying The Forest gives out two types of grant:
100 pounds monthly giving a grant total of 1200 (100 x 12)
300 pounds quarterly giving another 1200 (300 x 4)
A total of 2400 in grants per annum between 16 groups.
Not a great deal is it...........................................
Im sure your accounts will explain the grants given out better than the info on the website does.
Pandora's Box
reply
02.01.2011 01:58
I think I've made my position clear enough on the above posts. As I said before, I was involved with the Forest from 2000 to 2003. I have no problem with people criticising the Forest model and suggesting other models for social spaces. I stand by my comment above - I can accept minor errors of detail, but if you are going to make such bold statements, I think its pretty unfair when you are confusing one organisation with another completely unrelated one. And then on your reply you make more unfounded judgements about Octopus Diamond which bear no relation to what has gone on. This project was always planned as a six month venture.
As I have said elsewhere, there were unforeseen licensing and building maintenance issues with both Bristo Place and the Roxy which impacted on what activities were possible and what revenue could be drawn.
I don't have any further useful information to add, based on what I know; this does not mean I am shrouding things in secrecy.
Matthew
Ha
24.05.2011 13:57
Listen up Ryan, you me and a boxing ring.
You know it makes sense, lets fight for the future of the arts, just like Beuys.
Bring your Visa.
psychedelic warlord
e-mail:
psychedelic warlord@gmail.com