I can understand the anger at this however i think this may be a misunderstanding. I would think that, or would at least like to think that, what they were commenting on was the relevance of the BNP in terms of the community they are involved in. These antifascist gigs seem to be perceived as preaching to the converted. The dub and squat communities have an natural aversion to fascism and as such the BNP, only a small part of the problem, don't feature heavily on the priorities list. This is not to say that they aren't important, but the reference to coal mines is telling. To really avert the spread of fascism one cannot simply parachute shock troops into an area and bombard them with, at times patronising and guilt laden, propaganda. You have to build strong communities which will repel the fash before they get a foothold. The BNP have excelled in that they have engaged with voters and rather than regurgitate a line they ask what problems exist, the answers they give are wrong and vile but they are the only answers people are being given. The only antidote to this is to be constantly engaged in your own community by setting up social centres and running community campaigns so there are no weaknesses for any bigots to pray on. The BNP are a brand they are not the problem themselves. So please sit down and have a chat with these guys, it may be wonderful and if not ya may get to hear some dub in the process.

Love and unity.

Could this be discussed by the parties involved not on Indymedia?

Fuck social centres, they're only relevant to hippy 'rebellious' students, not working-class communities.

I'd think that the relevance of the BNP in that community is quite high, after all the fascists have threatened the shop above the social centre as well as the centre itself numerous times. They think that the fascists are relevant enough to warrant taking measures to prevent from being burned down.

I'm well aware of the "dub communities" (not really a community though, is it?) and I'm a massive fan of the music - but that has nothing to do with this. The reference to coal mining is because the dub night is a benefit for Huntington Lane open-cast protest site, nr telford which is an important issue. One that is too important to split the people available and willing to go to by clashing with the anti-fash gig. Splitting the amount either night makes no sense at all.

Just because the BNP are a "brand" means nothing, the NF/C18, the BPP, the BFF etc are all just "brands" and have caused /continue to cause massive problems for the people exposed to them. You are very correct, parachuting shock troopers in solves nothing, which is why Liverpool Anti-Fascists are trying to build a steady base of local support; the anti-fash benefit nights are part of this. By knowingly clashing with them, the social centre does nothing but disservice to the local community.

Unity is what is being asked for here, Unity and Cooperation. You don't think fascism is a massive problem but coal mining is, fine, organise a benefit on a different night and there is unity (and if it was the other way round, I'd expect the same from the Liverpool anti-fascist group). Purposely clash and those of us who think BOTH issues are important are left to choose who gets our cash - hurting yourselves in the process.

Love and Rage.


Me: Sure, it can be discussed by the parties involved, but it's (relatively) important news for people of the Merseyside/North West and potential members/users of both the social centre and the Liverpool anti-fascists. If we also choose to discuss it, we will, or are we being censored?

Most Social Centres have that problem, yes "Emma". But the Liverpool social centre has some people involved who are trying to make them relevant to working class communities. Instead of simply saying "fuck 'em!" let us try instead to engage them. Try to make them realise that stunts like this just foster views like yours that they are irrelevant and only exist for a few "hippy students" to have a dance in.

Next To Nowhere can be a force for good, let's not write them off because of a minority of those involved.

A real Anarchist rejects all form of government equally, campaigning for the opposition to keep out the BNP does not make you a anarchist, it makes you a government supporter.
Anarchy = no government

For crying out loud. Nothing in that says they'd purposefully clash with it, just one of of them wouldn't purposefully avoid it. The person did not say that dub is more important, the person said dub and coal mining. The reason given for not worrying too much about the clash is that there'd be a big crowd at that event anyway. Nothing in that says the person doesn't want to act on real fascist threats, it just says that person doesn't think this is one of them. That's a legitimate opinion. I'm getting really fucking fed up of scene-kid anarchists thinking any deviation from the party line is worthy of being slapped down. Go become a Labour Party whip if that's how you see things.

Braz, what you say is very true, but I'm not sure what relevance it has to this.

Who here is suggesting we call for the government to ban the BNP? Anti-fascism is a lot more than standing at a demo calling for the government to ban something you don't like. Just ask AFA/Antifa/the 635 group.

I have over twenty years experience in radical left "politics" and trying to bring about social change, hardly a scene "kid".

This has to be seen in the context of the social centre attempting to show a right-wing propaganda-piece (The Soviet Story) a couple of weeks ago. Nothing to do with the usual documentary night organisers (who do a fantastic job) but one centre user who is a conspiracy theorist.

The centre is doing a fantastic job, but there are a few users with very questionable politics, but apparently we aren't supposed to question it.

a quote taken out of context can be a terrible ting.
& stir up such strong emotions. it would be funny if it weren't so fuckin tragic, eh?
as the person who is organisin the night, i would love for the author of this 'report' to come down on fri & engage me in conversation. i'll be the one with the baby. i'll explain sarcasm to you & show you how deeply wrong your interpretation has been. same goes for all the other anonymous contributors. i would be at the saturday gig but i don't think the pilgrim allow babies.
feck, was gonna write a lighthearted riposte & explain the egregious misunderstanding but it is painfully apparent that many people have not only had a humour bypass but are livin with their heads so far up their own arse that it would be wasted on them.
but, for the record...
i originally suggested 2 possible dates, fri or sat.
was told that there is an antifash gig on sat so, obviously, said we'd do it on fri.
designed a fetchin poster.
was told that there had been a double bookin. oops. was sent email that contained a JOKE about the bnp. laughed at said JOKE that is the main substance of this 'report'.(& please before anyone gets het up & responds that the bnp is no jokin matter, just don't. you want to discuss it, ntn fri from 9pm. like i say, i'll be the one with the baby.)
lighthearted grumble about booking mix up & concern about lack of support, but hey ho, open cast minin isn't that big a deal anyway, to be honest we're only doin it for the music. (humour alert.)
changed start time from 7 to 9 in order to accomodate double bookin.
redesigned poster, which also had a couple of other mistakes.
listened to some dub.
was told about furore on indymedia.
read above & despaired for the future of the world.

anyhoo, all this aside, it has drew my attention to the fact that i forgot to post on indymedia re the gig.
so, i'll do it now.


hooligan's return

- a benefit night @ N2N -

Friday 23rd April 9-late

Donation on door

Bring & share cake
Free vegan soup - all ingredients skipped from local supermarkets
Drinks - mix of hot & cold beverages
Music - Dave & Joe on the mix
Disinfo - up to date info on Huntington Lane Open Cast protest site, near
Telford plus undercurrents projections

'either we are part of the problem or we are part of the solution'

I don't have a problem with ANYONE at the centre, what I do have issue with is the politics of some of the members/users.

Demonization of the centre? Hardly, I made it clear in the original post: "Some members of the Liverpool Social Forum/Liverpool Social Centre". "Some members of" is quite clear and indeed the very first line!


fesityfingers: It WASN'T a joke, please don't come that. I understand sarcasm fully, but it seems you don't understand false dichotomy: "'either we are part of the problem or we are part of the solution'". That simple, is it? A binary choice?

Maybe educate yourself:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma#False_choice (yes, yes, I know, wikipedia. I'm sure you can find better sources). It is this kind of shit politics that put people off.

Nice of you to tell use where we can discuss it too. It's your way or the highway? How authoritarian.

Love and Rage.

@nnoyed,
i think i waste my time, however,
the only clash has been on the friday. the FRIDAY, not the saturday.
i could show you emails & texts that prove that we were never havin it on sat once i heard about the antifash gig but i don't think it would help.
i could reiterate that it was a joke but i don't think you have a sense of humour.
i could surmise that you're a troll.
to be accused of havin shit politics & bein hierarchical because i believe that you should not anonymously hide behind computer screens whilst slaggin me off. youwhatnow?
you quote out of context & resort to sensationalist headlines & bollocks interpretations.
oh, and the dispute over the film. as far as i'm aware the only issue was in continuing a discussion on an announcements list. not a suppression.
right, too much time wasted on this already.
hope to see you all on saturday.
oops. i mean friday. obviously.
x

m whats it like having a life path like a demolition derby

This has nothing to do with the non-existent clash of events. That was an administrative issue, but I did express a controversial view that needs explaining. I did exagerrate a bit because I thought I was only talking to people who knew me, ie, the semi-private social centre discussion list. If you are on this list and not involved in & known to the centre please cancel your subscription and put yourself on the annuncements list instead.

The BNPs biggest failing is their negativity. because of their lack of imagination and creative powers, because they are motivated by fear rather than hope, because they are reactionaries who find it easier to dfine themselves by what they are against - all these things make them useless. This is why they come to our events and bookshop looking for a fight, they don't have their own stuff to hang out at. I think distributing intellgient leaflets about the BNP is a good idea- well done people. We should probably keep an eye on them whenever they get together and start making a noise, so once again well done .

Sometimes I think people go to demos and counter demos without really thinking about. Sometimes a small BNP thing becomes big news because loads of their opponents turn up. This might just make them feel better about themselves. Especially if they are made to feel misunderstood or that no one wants to listen to them. Can you put yourself into the heads of these people? It's not easy, but say you've never really been political before or particularly articulate, you don't trust the mainstream politics, maybe you're not well educated and instinctively mistrust and dislike anyone who comes across as a bit of a smart arse, especially if they seem more upper class than you. Now you get into the anti-imigration thing and start trying to spread your message. What happens? A lot of people tell you to shut up, they call you a racist and a fascist. Maybe you think you're not actually racist, just territorial, maybe you've got issues yourself with fascism, perhaps you're dad was killed by nazis (German national socialists), maybe you believe infreedom of speech alongside the freedom to punch people.

What's the aim in challenging these people? Do you want them to change, do you want to enagage with them? Or frighten them away. Decide on one or the other. A lot of anti-fascist action seems to be stuck in the middle ground. There's also atendency I think amongst these right wingers to hate other people for their weakness and this is why your response needs to be thought out - chanting simplistic insults could be construed as a sign of weakness.

If I say 'I don't care about the BNP' what I'd be saying is I don;t respect them as adverseries. I don't want to give them any of my time. That might change if they get more violent or keep hassling the bookshop (but that in itself would only prove how useless they are) . I choose to concentrate on other things knowing that the anti-fasc gang is pretty strong in this city. Mostly I try to do positive things, to make good things happen rather than stop bad things happening. My main exception is environmental stuff because I have afear that the only planet I know or can get to is going to die before I reach old age, so I am involved in the anti-fossil fuel movement.

This is my main point though:
My main problem with the anti-fascist groups is not their tactics but their targets. THE MAIN FASCIST THREAT COMES FROM THE STATE ie; the people with the guns and surveillance systems. This is real, it affects all of us everyday, their rules have become internalised, we are afraid of going to jail. I stop at red lights when there's no other traffic and no one watching, I don't try set fire to banks whenever I come across one (as any real free human would presumably do) . In work I subject myself to a humiliating culture of health and safety related mistrust and form filling. The groundwork for a truely fascist state has already been laid and any of the big political parties could be the figure heads. The BNP probably wouldn;'t get away with it because we'd see them coming and they are outsiders - they wouldn't get the support of the business world.

Finally, the best anti-fascist weapon is the courage to be yourself and say whatevers on your mind and to break rank. That's why I'm not sorry for saying that thing and why I mistrust people whose responses are too predictable. Even if I didn't totally mean it it's what i felt at that moment.

thanks - dave.

The BNP are not worth concentrating on any more, unlike the EDF. Unless wasting time while the real grass roots facist threat unfolds is your aim.