yes I agree with the above...well said.

durruti - what do you think your posts achieve?? do you think the people currently in calais will say "shit -we need to settle down somewhere so we can work with people who already are where they want to be?"

if you really are so concerned about the BNP in your area, why not get involved with a group doing work in that area (who knows there might even be a No Borders group). Sounds like you have the insights to make it more successful. :/

to be honest with you mate you're argument doesn't really pan out. Let the no borders people do as they wish, who gives a fuck.

The real problem lies in the likes of the iwca who have over the last 20 (twenty!) years of their existance haven't managed to stop the rise growth and popularity of the bnp.

So why not look at the failures, the problems and the isues concerning the iwca and it's stategy and approach and it's total inability to connect with the disenfranchised working class, whom it claims to represent, who are now turning to the bnp for 'answers'?

It's one thing blaming no borders for the rise of the bnp (bit like blaming iwca for the rise of the bnp, eh sunshine ;[ but what are YOU doing, what's your happy band of militants, revolutionaries, stalwarts and community activists actually doing beyond posting up miserable criticisms of a very small and very powerless minority group you seem to be blaming for you own towering impotence.

This is the same old rhetorical bullshit - you can't do two things at once. You can't help build strong communities, opposing the BNP locally, and build strong solidarity with migrants. Ever considered that solidarity with migrants is shifting support away from fascists who oppose migrant solidarity so much? That activists can multi-task with campaigns?

As an animal liberationist I hear the equivalent crap all the time and can see it from a mile away "you can't help humans and non-humans". It's a load of shit and fortunately most people on hear aren't buying it.

You keep repeating the same thing over and over and over and over again, it's boring:
"No Borders promises migrants support but actually has no real support to offer."

Suprisingly enough, you provide no evidence or example what-so-ever. You hope that by repeating this as many times as possible people will start to believe you. Unfortunately some foolish people will, this is why you're continuing your campaign of dis-information.

Practical solidarity was built; migrants recieved less repression and eviction over the course of the no borders camp, food and clothing I hear was provided, with migrants supporting the camp and activists supporting migrants. If everybody ignored the attempted deportations this week then they would of all been deported already. Instead the direct resistance in the 'jungle' and presence at french embassys slowed this down (in the hope to prevent it).

Furthermore anti-deportation campaigns in this country and abroad have successfully prevented many deportations, and you say no borders has no real support to offer? If you haven't recognised the back-bone of no borders campaigning is anti-deportation campaigns.

" there is nothing to show it has any understanding whatsoever as to what is needed to get what it wants." - It's in the name: no borders. It's what we need, to get what we want.

"In fact it does the opposite as most ordinary people while often sympathetic to the plight of migrants quite rightly fail to understand why uk based activists are more interested in helping those abroad than those next door who are often in serious trouble, and are alienated by this." - Activists aren't more interested in helping migrants, they are AS interested.

Clearly well-planed no borders campaigns have just started to become effective (no offence to anyone!) and have only recently been working with migrants instead of for them. Yes it's going to take a few more camps for the no borders philosophy to become clearly defined (politically and ideologically) and it seems this is what you are attempting to capitalise on: activists and their supporters lack of specific and absolute direction as a campaign.

The irony is the only absolute direction/ideology for no borders will be no borders, this is the beauty of a non-hierarchical campaign. There will be further definition but no doctrine.

Thanks Veg@n. Solidarity work is very important in my modest opinion, with the migrants, with the homeless, the animals and every other humans and not humans who are suffering oppression; very useless instead is to argue on the line "what I'm doing is better than what you are doing" and no borders people and their allies have always been at the frontline in fighting the BNP.
United we stand, divided we fall !!!
p.s. We have stopped many deportations, and none of the refugees, some of whom have now got indefinite leave to remain, has ever comlpained about us being useless.

No Borders Network UK is a relative small network made up of around 100 people in 5 or 6 cities. Why blame them for attempting to do something they feel neccesary. I was involved in No Borders since it was set-up in 2004/5 and I can say that it has supported hundreds of people in detention centres, stopping deportations, public awareness and actions. There are real people involved which have a desire to feel safe and live without fear. I would argue these points

1. Anarchists have always supported people at the bottom end of the pile, and "failed asylum seekers" with no recourse to public funds, housing, medication, schools or income are in a very dire situation. Anarchists and other activists have managed to form good relationships and presence amongst people in that situation and have punched above their weight to do it. It is not an easy politics by far but there is greater appreciation and relationship than you would get in a sterotypical working class area where though things might be bad, are not as bad as living in a fear of deportation or worst.

2. My problem with No Borders Network was that the politics of it needed to extend beyond the situation and condition of migrants, but there was nothing to extend to. I know that currently there has been a synthesis with the politics of climate change and migration due to the fact that there will be many hundreds of thousands moving away from areas decimated by climatic change. There was also some linking up with Antifa in the UK but this was never politically developed, though many did try to broaden the connections between the hysteria and misinformation from the media, the BNP...etc.

3. Your failure ( if you can call it that though I am not knocking the work you do) is due because to politicised working class people that work, have a mortgage, have a standard of living, and everything else most working class people have in the UK is extremely difficult. Just from looking round at my work place, noone is interested in fighting the state and capital. Sorry but we have to be honest, otherwise there would be alot more people doing alot more stuff.

4. The rise of the BNP is due to the fact that people feel the only alternative against global capitalism is state protectionism. The state is the only institution that people can associate with that can counter act what people percieve as the dominance of global market forces. Manufacturing in the UK has lost out to labour market competition. Skilled workforces now exists in many former "third world" countries. And not only that, the service industry which employs millions in the UK are one of the main benefactors of labour migration. If we want to stop the growth of the BNP, it is to start answering some serious questions on how we can collectively stop capitalist market forces destroying the strong bonds that have been built within the working class.

I don't have the answers, but I think this debate should go offline - organise public meetings (I'll help you) and hopefully move this debate to the people that will actually benefit most from it.

i stand with a, i feel we are hitting a nerve long avoided and the need to move forward, depends upon what we can, and should be concentrating on, which is our joined, number. Unnerving for the state, and our only weapon.

100 noborders activist in UK is probably quite a correct extimate but we are networked with a large number of groups and individuals who do not necessarely share a no borders position. That' s why we are able to do a lot, relatively speaking, even if we are few.
The situation of the working class in Europe - not only in UK - is very sad and depressing at the moment for what I can see, between workers sticking to their small privileges, being brainwashed by the telly, consumer 'culture' and sadly inclreasing xenophobia and racism amongst the working classes! It is not only the BNP who is profiting from the crisis, it is the government too and the bosses. That' s some of the reasons I think solidarity work is so important. Besides we try to make a political case of the abuses and injustices we see, not just to do charity work to help the victims, and to empower the people to fight back by themselves.
I agree no borders would be able to do much more in connection to a wider anti capitalist movement, which is precisely what we would like and what is lacking.
If we can organise meetings to discuss this I am very happy, maybe we could start meeting at the Reclaim the Future event in September?

@ malatesta .. mate i am working against teh BNP and have been involved with e.g ANL since 1978 .. the kind of @ activist work NB do and the way it dominates Indymedia does not help .. what do my posts acheive .. hoepfully that people look at what they do and the mechanics of how change happens and see that what they are doing is not working

@
Nothing worse than an an opinion
You're a dangerous distraction

fair play yes the local community activists movement has not been too succesful, and should be analysed, but where itr has it shows an alternative that it is simply absurd that the liberal @activists ignore .. and note .. where there are serious IWCA/HSG/HSN/HI/LCAP campaigns there is NO sign of the BNP ..

@veg@n .. yes of course you can do two things at once .. but the vast majority of 'activists' never do local work .. that is a simple fact .. you then accept my argument that NB campaigns have NOT been affective, though then state they are becoming so .. sorry you are deluding yourself...where campaigns have been effective in the long term they have been locally based anti deportation campaigns which i support.

@ noborderer .. when did you offer solidarity to the old woman or single mum who lives isolated on your street?

@a fair play.. lots of good points but my key disagreement with you relates to this

" Anarchists have always supported people at the bottom end of the pile" .. you see this is where i think @ activists have it wrong .. unless you have power the solidarity you offer to people at the bottom is minimal .. activists offer time and energy and through clas they often have money. But is is fleeting and rarely builds long term power that can acheive change.

you also say "in a sterotypical working class area" and "politicised working class people that work, have a mortgage, have a standard of living, and everything else most working class people have in the UK is extremely difficult. Just from looking round at my work place, no one is interested in fighting the state and capital" .. you see this is the issue is that almost all @/activists ignore ordianry people .. and then wonder why ordinary people do not look to them but to the BNP or the state for answers ..

I am arguing for a fundamental change in @ politics that works from the base WHOEVER THAT IS .. if I lived in Calais i am sure i would be involved in helping migrants .. but i am not ..

if you wish to debate more Urban75 is good and yes i am happy to debate this maybe at @Bookfair :)


@christeathan .. no you are hitting the wrong nerve .. the nerve of ordinaryu people who identify the BNP with saying ( yes of course they lie) they are their friends instead of the @s

@ to a .. fair play again .. i both agree that the w/c movement is 'depressed' and migrant support NEEDS to be part of the w/c movement .. what NB need to do is analyse why and how people change their minds ;) it is rarely due to outside argument but from friends and people you respect ( and yes i appreciate what that says about my arguing style! :))

I do not have preferences for single mums, migrants or others. I help everybody if I can, neighbours included, and I've done a few actions with LCAP . Many of the people I am in contct with are in fact single mothers fighting deportation to countries where their lives are in danger, and to imply I should think first of the UK residents in my street sounds pretty racist to me. Pathetic.

no borderer .. anarchism if it is anything is about power and destroying the power the rich minority have over the rest of us .. it is NOT about charity and 'helping' the needy .. it is about building real strong communities where we live and work .. your 'charity' anarchism is the death of real anarchism and why @ism has fuck all influence in the w/c and society in general .. it not only does not do what it proclaims it does it actually makes things harder for those doing down to earth politcs

do you never wonder (or worry) why such a basically sensible ideology such as @ is

1) so irrelevent and so ignored by the vast majority of the population?

and 2) the vast majority of those who call themselves @s are not actually doing any down to earth anarchist work but are instead running around being 'activists' with little or no relationship with 99% of people?

"you then accept my argument that NB campaigns have NOT been affective, though then state they are becoming so .. sorry you are deluding yourself"

I stated that they are becoming so and the recent camp in Calais was effective. Yes I said I didn't think they were initially, but said they are now. Something can develop to become effective you know, its how most campaigns evolve infact! You're the deluded one here.

ps - you mean effective, not affective. no piss take intended just thought i'd point it out..