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Dispatch - new workers' bulletin on the public pay dispute - distro help request

Dispatcher | 06.08.2007 21:06 | Analysis | Workers' Movements | London

We are a group of workers mostly in the public sector, who met via the libcom.org website who are putting together a bulletin called Dispatch - Public sector pay dispute—information for action. An ad hoc newsletter for the ongoing struggles, mainly in the post office at present, against sub-inflation pay offers.

Image Dispatch Issue #1 - application/pdf 142K



Our main aims are - to try to keep workers informed, to help communication across different sectors, to help spread the struggle, to help workers fight more effectively, to help us win, and to record information about how the struggle progresses to pass on lessons to other workers in the future.

We want to get the bulletin out to as many people as possible, and we need your help. This first issue is aimed at postal workers. Future issues might be aimed at civil servants, local government workers, etc.

Our main targets for distribution this time will be big District Offices (DOs), which can have thousands of workers, but also if these have been done, secondary targets include picket lines, Sub-Delivery Offices (SDOs), post offices, post boxes, CWU demonstrations, then other public sector workers, and anyone else.

Depending on responses we can pay for some to be printed, but for now we're mostly planning on using DIY photocopies or printouts from PDF.

Are you or your organisation interested? If so, which area are you in? Can you or your group take responsibility for certain areas/offices? Do you have a newsletter? If so can you include the bulletin in your mailout?

We're trying to co-ordinate this mostly on the libcom forums:  http://libcom.org/forums/organise/dispatch-distributing-public-sector-pay-struggle-bulletin-help-needed-05082007
So please feed back here. Alternatively you can email us at
 dispatch@libcom.org

We can help to get details like DO addresses, and if you can't help distribute them libcom needs assistance with reporting the disputes online so if you have the time to help out do get in touch!

Please also forward this appeal to anyone or any websites/message boards where people may find it useful.

In solidarity,

The Dispatch crew

Dispatcher
- e-mail: dispatch@libcom.org
- Homepage: http://libcom.org/library/dispatch-public-sector-pay-dispute-1-august-2007

Comments

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?

06.08.2007 22:06

It looks like it took you five minutes to put together. Maybe the libwrong crew should spend more time engaged in producing rather than slagging off people in the anarchist and libertarian movement - like thay have for the pass 4 years.

anarchist

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af?

06.08.2007 22:58

anarchist reads like a cop who's been on holiday and trying to catch up, badly.

no one

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no

07.08.2007 00:39

not a cop, a womble, they hate LibCom cos some people made fun of them trying to loot hackney tescos while the locals took the piss out of them or something

one no

as i understand it...

07.08.2007 06:18

it's not 'libcom' which has made this leaflet but a group of workers who use it. you can slag off libcom all you like if you print out a load and take them down your local delivery office/stick some in post boxes. i mean already far more people have taken direct action in this dispute than against the war, this is massive and if the relatively organised workers in the public sector with their traditions of militancy (particularly the posties) can get beat and have casualisation and pay cuts imposed, everyone else is pretty fucked, not least the already precarious agency workers of whom there will be a lot more if the state/bosses win this one. certainly the bosses understand this - look at the quote from the royal mail director on the back page of 'dispatch' comparing this to breaking the miners.

(A)

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idiots

07.08.2007 06:57

A group of workers huh? They may be technically so but ultimately they are lefty politicos without an organisation to recruit but...wait for it... an internet forum!

And maybe people are pissed off with limpcock 'cos they constantly attack and badmouth other anarchists like Leeds and Brighton ABC for their support of John Bowden.

No one should doubt that it is not important to support the postal workers but think twice about what this newsletter is actually promoting, a website forum where uncomradely behaviour, childish swearing and disinformation is a constant feature - I wouldn't want any potentially interested worker to have a web forum like libcom as their first point of contact with the anarchist/lib communist movement.

An worker

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solidarity my arse

07.08.2007 09:45

I'd give my postie a copy but she is female and I wouldn't want to direct her to a forum that allows jokes about rape to stand.

Danny

Libcom is more than the forum

07.08.2007 09:46

I tend to avoid the forum as it seems like there's too much irritating bitching and sectarian bollocks (bit like this thread) in there for me. But Libcom is a great resource in other ways - it has an excellent library of anarchist texts and a really good collection and archive of anarchist-related news stuff. I like it for that.

llantwit

An Worker

07.08.2007 09:48

A bit like this website then

..

is this the best you can do?

07.08.2007 10:10

Who are all these keyboard warriors posting on indymedia? I thought it was an activist website, not somewhere where people just snipe from the sidelines. This could be the biggest set of strikes in the UK for years, and what are you doing apart from slagging off the only group to actually do anything about it?

I took a look at the links from the bulletin, and all I see is pages and pages about the post strikes, none of this four years of slagging off groups that previous posters mention - people in glass houses shouldn't throw bricks.

N...

to "an worker"

07.08.2007 10:30

I'm pretty sure I can guess who you are and what group you're in, but you're choosing to hide behind an unknown pseudonym, that's fine.

If you've actually read this bulletin, what you'll see is not that it's promoting an "internet forum," but postal workers working to the 318 during the course of the strike action, linking the public sector struggles together and for workers as much as possible to communicate together to begin to take control of the struggles themselves.

Actually, I remember that it does promote an internet forum:  http://www.royalmailchat.co.uk - a postal workers' discussion site.

It does link to part of our site, yes -  http://libcom.org/pay-2007 - because there we have just about the best reporting around on the libertarian left, of these disputes, which lots of us on the site are involved with. At my work we have just rejected our 2% pay offer as well, and will now be balloting for strike action.

This dispute - which has already involved over 300,000 people taking direct action, thousands of them off their own bat outside the control of the unions is being roundly ignored by the bulk of the "anarchist" movement.

"An worker" and "Anarchist," since you're slagging us off, what is your view on these struggles and the best way to take them forward? Do you work in any of the affected sectors? What are you doing to take things forward that is more effective than us?

For reference, the bulleting wasn't put together by just admins of libcom, or else we would have said that, it was a few of us involved in these disputes plus other workers we know who read the site.

As for the other poor attempts at smears and insults - while ironically criticising people who slag people off on the internet! - saying that we don't produce anything is silly, we build and maintain the UK's largest anarchist website, for one thing, that certainly didn't take 5 minutes to put together. And "an worker" is actually spreading disinformation himself - the 2,700-odd posters on libcom say things that we admins can't be held responsible for, any more than the indymedia bods for what I'm saying. Your claims about Bowden are wrong - I for one clearly said he should be freed. I did criticise Brighton ABC for supporting the Unabomber, and saying this on their site: "Ted is serving multiple life sentences for the infamous and fatal Unabomber bombing campaign against individuals involved in developing destructive technologies." He tried to blow up a passenger jet - he is a wannabe mass murderer and this description glorifies his crimes.

libcom John.
- Homepage: http://libcom.org

i see

07.08.2007 10:49

it's suggesting workers use the forums at royalmailchat and libcom to co-ordinate autonomous action to link struggles in different sectors against bosses and the state. but of course it's far easier to slag off a website anonymously on the internet than get involved in any kind of solidarity work. i'm told the main authors aren't even regular posters there, but don't let that stop the vitriol.


If anyone who isn't foaming at the mouth with grudges wants to help distribute this i think it's exactly what anarchist groups should be doing, i'm gonna print a load and distro them round my way.

(A)

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John

07.08.2007 12:29

"posters on libcom say things that we admins can't be held responsible for, any more than the indymedia bods"

Eh, I'm pretty sure if you joked about rape around here it would be hidden - although I doubt anyone here would.

Lot's of posters on LibCom did state support for John ( whether they actually did anything is another matter ) but a the loudmouth foulmouth morons there really showed it be a tabloid forum at heart.

How can I give my female postie a link to a site that jokes about rape ? She could have been raped for all I know and might not see the joke.

You can't be unaware that LibCom has a tarnished reputation - and did so years ago imao. So, why tie up support for the postal workers with support for LibCom. It wouldn't take five minutes to setup a different website for that purpose. Otherwise, it is arguable that this is less a genuine attempt to support striking workers and just an exploitative PR stunt.

Danny

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????!!!

07.08.2007 13:27

Who's libcom got a tarnished reputation amongst? Anyone that matters?

This quite clearly isn't a PR stunt, have you actually looked at the bulletin? Or have you just seen 'libcom' and decided that this is all a load of shit?

What a fucking idiot.

dannyboy

five minutes

07.08.2007 13:36

Danny says: It wouldn't take five minutes to setup a different website for that purpose.

--

Well someone already did - royalmailchat.co.uk, and the leaflet links to them very prominently.

They don't have information about the 2003 wildcat strikes, the Communication Workers Group or other older stuff though, nor the rest of the public sector strikes going on right now, and nor would a brand new site set up by politicos in five minutes.

As to

N...

Danny

07.08.2007 13:55

For the casual reader, Danny was banned from libcom two days ago for repeatedly posting up the real name of another poster against his will. If anyone was wondering what the chip on his shoulder is.

We've linked to the section of our site (/pay-2007) which is the best libertarian-left coverage of the dispute we know of - if you know better let us know. We also link to www.royalmailchat.co.uk with which we are not affiliated at all. We're not "tying up support for postal workers with support for libcom" - we're including links to what we think are the best available resources for workers to get information, network and spread the struggle across sectors.

why should we start a whole new website when we run one already? we'd only get slated for setting up an SWP-style front organisation anyway, which our critics would revel in 'exposing.' Instead we're being open about who's involved in Dispatch and what its goals are.

Joseph K.
- Homepage: http://www.libcom.org

and also

07.08.2007 14:00

all of the authors are involved in the public sector dispute, several are or have recently been on strike, others may be soon. to suggest they're not really interested in their own struggle is absurd.

Joseph K.
- Homepage: http://www.libcom.org

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RapeCom

07.08.2007 14:47

I've been banned have I ? You know I'd hardly be hanging around on a website that tolerates this level of argument.

"maybe a rape would be more within my limits, i'd probably on;y manage an aggravated sexual assualt, i'm a really useless anarchist like that." - Revol68

Classy. You can wrap your website in anarchist literature and it doesn't make you any more anarchist - want to remind me again what Emma Goldmanns rape-jokes were ?

Danny

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er yeah,

07.08.2007 15:11

which was in response to you saying you won't accept anyone's opinion on prisons except if they've been in prison. you then suggested we should rename the site rapecom - were you joking? about rape?

and given the fact that you have no idea of the admins experiences of rape if you were really interested in not causing offence you wouldn't come out with such shit that we support "rapists and wannabe rapists."

Joseph K.
- Homepage: http://www.libcom.org

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Danny

07.08.2007 15:15

You are using that line out of context. Revol was not joking about rape. He was pointing out what he sees as the absurdity of supporting John Bowden by saying that maybe he should commit an unspeakable crime, as Bowden did, to gain some kudos within the anarchist movement.
That was not making light of or in any way joking about rape. Whilst it was probably in bad taste you are being misleading with your accustion.
Please read the Dispatch leaflet before you start criticising it or the Libcom folk who helped put it together. Libcom, as far as I know, is carrying the most exhaustive amount of info on the web about the posties strike and the wider public sector pay dispute.
Your comments are not helpful and this is such an important issue in the UK at the moment.

Welshboy

Welshboy

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There is no acceptable context for rape-jokes

07.08.2007 15:38

"Revol was not joking about rape."

"yeah it's called a joke"-revol68

So the guy who was joking about rape at least has the decency to admit it. And yet you deny that and don't have the decency to admit I didn't name you maliciously, I only used the name you normally use here and by which I know you which is helluva interchangable, you never asked me to remove that name and instead ran to Uncle Joe. You may be a cool guy but that is not a cool thing to do. Not very, what's the word, oh yeah, anarchist.

"Please read the Dispatch leaflet before you start criticising it"

Read it. 8 name checks for LibCom over two pages. Listen, if you post a copy with the LibCom advertisements removed I will distribute it. If it isn't meant as an ad for LibCom then that shouldn't be a problem eh ?

Danny

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Unco Joe

07.08.2007 16:27

"you then suggested we should rename the site rapecom - were you joking? about rape? "

No, it was meant as a justified insult rather than an attempt at humour. Someone worthy of being a moderator would realise that as surely as they realised no such jokes should have been allowed in the first place. If you banned me because I used Welshboys IM name rather than his LibCom name, fair enough, but to imply that was malicious is disingenuous.

I hope you can see why I can't distribute anything that mentions LibCom to female postal workers while you have rape jokes there. Never mind the similarly hilarious jokes about murder etc. Since you have a different website mentioned already, then publish a sanitised version of the PDF and I will distribute a few thousand copies.

You also seem to be implying that I have a chip on my shoulder for being banned from LibCom. I joined the same day I was bannned and I regard that as a badge of honour - ask Welshboy if you doubt that.

You mention John Bowden, someone I respect and someone your posters vilify in the most abhorrent and tabloid way. The first time John replied to me he signed off with the phrase 'in solidarity' and I asked him not to again. I explained the term is so misused by people who expect you to act in solidarity with them while they shit on you.

So solidarity with the posties - definitely. Solidarity with LibCom - nah.
I know you personally said you support John but your moderating certinly throws that into doubt. So if I'm bitter, know that it isn't for being banned. If you really want to support the posties and want that info distributed by people who don't respect your website, why not post a version without the continual name checks ? Cos solidarity cuts both ways.

Danny

Doing the job as it should be done

07.08.2007 17:01

Like the leaflet, like that something positive is coming out of Libcom. Will be putting a few in my postbox and the local CWU social.

CH

STFU Danny

07.08.2007 17:16

Danny, why don't you just shut the fuck up, you haven't got a clue about what you're talking about.

This article was posted to request help in distributing a bulletin aimed at workers involved in the biggest struggle happening at the moment in the UK, and you exercising your personal vendetta against libcom isn't helping, and if anything you're just showing what a fucking nut-job you are.

dannyboy

Disgusted from Ankara

07.08.2007 17:32

I find the comments on here totally shocking.
The fact that some people are rejecting an orientation towards working class struggle because some people don't agree with their ideas about prisoner support is outrageous.
You really are an embarrassment to the entire tradition of anarchism.

On another point, one poster wrote:
"They don't have information about the 2003 wildcat strikes, the Communication Workers Group or other older stuff though,"

No, they don't have it all. I don't think anyone has all the documents from CWG. It was about twenty years ago. Libcom has what they have found on their site.

Devrim

Devrim Valerian
mail e-mail: solkomunist@yahoo.com
- Homepage: http://eks.internationalist-forum.org/tr/node

...

07.08.2007 17:49

A major purpose of Dispatch is to encourage workers to link their struggles across sectors, if you know a better libertarian-left resource on the public sector pay dispute than what we're building at /pay-2007 please post it up, i've asked once already.

Are you really saying that out of fear for the sensibilities of your female postie you wouldn't direct her to a site where *one post* out of 10,000+ you find objectionable? You didn't seem so concerned about the admins sensibilities (who for all you know have been raped) when you labelled us supporters of "rapists and wannabe rapists." Or concerned about those who may think you're trivialising the holocaust by labelling people nazis left right and centre. Actually i saw *one post* on royalmailchat.co.uk praising the bombing of Germany in WWII, perhaps we shouldn't link to them either since we're opposed to nationalism?

As for John Bowden, it's simply wrong to say "our posters" vilify him. I can think of two who have been hostile, while others have been supportive and others comradely critical. There's certainly no consensus on the board about him - you do yourself no favours by amalgamating all the opposing views of people on a discussion forum and then attributing this mish-mash to the people who run the site. unless you think the IMC-UK mods agree with everything that's posted up here, tinfoil-hat madness and all.

To be honest it's depressing that judging by the number of responses to this versus the few other related posts on IMC UK most 'anarchists' only interest in the largest wave of direct action for a long time is slagging off (some of) the only people who are doing something around it. Makes a change, the usual insult aimed at us is that we're internet do-nothings.

Joseph K.
- Homepage: http://www.libcom.org

activists in "nutters" shocker

07.08.2007 19:56

"Danny" is a whacko who's full of shite, who was banned for repeatedly revealing private, personal and dangerous information about a libcom poster who had been in prison, he now has a chip on his shoulder, and is using that as his excuse for not getting involved in the public sector disputes - that's fair enough, who cares, just get a life and harrass people who might care. And as someone else pointed out, you just made a joke about rape, calling our site "rapecom." So I hope you don't tell any poor fragile women about this site which allows rape jokes, eh?

If that is stopping him delivering "thousands of copies" of the only libertarian leaflet on the biggest working class struggle in the UK in recent history then I think that shows up his commitment to working class struggle. FWIW, we would happily put a link to a different web address if there was another site with as good coverage of these disputes as libcom. Got one to recommend?

That said we've had very good responses to our bulletin and coverage so far from striking postal workers, and we are far more concerned about them than some weirdo anarchoids with petty grudges.

On a practical note, we are having a few thousand of these printed for distribution in London,a nd will be hitting big DOs for distribution on Thursday morning, and picket lines on Friday. If anyone wants some or wants to help out - say on that thread on libcom linked above or email dispatch at libcom dot org.

libcom John.
- Homepage: http://libcom.org

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.

07.08.2007 20:23

"Are you really saying that out of fear for the sensibilities of your female postie you wouldn't direct her to a site where *one post* out of 10,000+ you find objectionable?"

Yes. I wouldn't direct any female to a site that allows jokes about rape to stand, I think I made that clear and you haven't addressed that issue.

"You didn't seem so concerned about the admins sensibilities"

Admins who find jokes about rape to stand - I should worry about their feelings ?
I take it from the fact you haven't produced a verion without all the LibCom referenences that promoting LibCom is part of the purpose. So pay for your own advertising.

Danny

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rapecom john

07.08.2007 21:23

>"Danny" is a whacko who's full of shite, who was banned for repeatedly revealing private, personal and dangerous information about a libcom poster who had been in prison, he now has a chip on his shoulder, and is using that as his excuse for not getting involved in the public sector disputes - that's fair enough, who cares, just get a life and harrass people who might care.

If I'm so full of shite then why can't do you argue the point rather than the man ? Not so easy to argue when you can't just hide someones posts eh ? I only used Welshboys first name, which is how I know him and how he posts on IM. So 'private, personal and dangerous' is overblown. I apologised but if he'd asked me I would have removed that myself.


>And as someone else pointed out, you just made a joke about rape, calling our site "rapecom."

And as I pointed out, it was a justified insult rather than a joke. Your the one who allows rape-jokes to stand. If you want your site to be taken seriously then you should really show some minimal standards in your moderating.

Danny

cool

08.08.2007 00:17

The snipers from the sidelines now become the sniped. How things have changed.

Thank god for Libcom, they are the only ones involved in the class struggle. Whilst we are all freaks.

...

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Libcom admin, what a bunch of middle class tossers! enough is enough!

08.08.2007 09:26

Group of middle class retards playing at anarchism before graduating to mummy and daddys trust fund. For years these pricks have been stirring shit within the movement with their fucked up humour and acerbic accusations like its some sort of play thing. We know who they are so lets see whats next and if they are big enough!

Aunty Christ

o rly?

08.08.2007 09:38

"I apologised but if he'd asked me I would have removed that myself."

curious, i just found that thread - he did ask you, you left it there, an admin removed it and you then did it again and started shouting 'fuck you hypocrite!' and the like at the admins for doing so. In fact instead of apologising you called him a "slimey backstabber" and told him to "head off back to the valleys" (yeah, kick out teh forenerz 4 teh ANaRkkY!!!11). but don't let the facts get in the way, head-case.

and "...", as far as i can tell libcom's been getting sniped at ever since it oriented away from the activist sub-culture towards class struggle. the fact that we're in the middle of the largest wave of direct action in years doesn't seem to register on many of these peoples radar, except when it provides a good opportunity to wage petty vendettas. I'd genuinely love to be proved wrong if any activists are doing stuff around this? or are even aware of it? (there's not a lot on IMC besides the feature, certainly compared to say G8 stuff even though far more people are taking direct action now - a lot of it outside the unions too).

libcom John. - good to hear the feedback from the intended audience is positive, it's obviously far more important what posties think than assorted internet grudge-merchants. and if anyone's still reading this not just for the subcultural soap opera, print out some Dispatch and get them out there!

(A)

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hahahaha Aunty

08.08.2007 09:49

Brilliant, (anonymous) threats of violence now? for what exactly? anyone would think you don't have an argument to back up your vendetta. watch out libcom, they 'know who you are'! Of course, people who have to work for a living, are involved in fighting cuts to their pay and conditions are obviously middle class trustafarians. Obviously. fucking mentalist.

Aunty Christ's Aunt

shame

08.08.2007 10:01

Itsa shame that this comes out on such an important issue - though I think no one is in dispute over its importance. As people have mentioned there is a alot of shit that has been flung around, nasty sectarianism caused and developed by the people who run Libcom. Its obvious people are upset and offended by it, and when Libcom stuff is posted on IMC this is the sort of reaction it gets and the main issue gets sidelined.

The Libcom collective can't keep blaming "activistoids" or "@narKyIsT", they should look at how they have treated and related to people and groups who they disagree with, with the constant criticism and personal abuse they have launched against a variety of people within the movement. If they seriously want to intervene and involve themselves beyond their web site into real face to face class struggle politics then they have to learn to have a non-sectarian, non-arrogant attitude. Otherwise these posts as you see here will dominate any (good) activity they may end up doing.

Raw

anarchist

wot?

08.08.2007 10:05

how the fuck is the post strike 'direct action'?!?! nobody's been arrested so that tells you how seriously the state takes it. they're not prepared to take on the state so fuck 'em, leave it to those of us who are. workers are part of capitalism so how can they be against it?

who is this 'working class' people are on about it's not the fucking 19th century any more. dickheads. smash capitalism, smash the 'working class'!

the resitance

troll

08.08.2007 10:14

"smash the working class" ?

What this a new political trend - anarcho-thatcherite

raw

Alternatives?

08.08.2007 10:50

For all the slagging off of LibCom from what looks like a lot of students and insane people, none of them have actually answered what they think should be done to win this fight. That's very telling.

pcs member

r(A)pe

08.08.2007 11:02

"curious, i just found that thread - he did ask you,"

No, he didn't, ask him if you doubt that. The argument was heated but I was trying to be rational while being deliberately provoked by the vilest, most cowardly filth - like jokes about rape and murder that still stand. Not only did I not reveal his first name maliciously - which he accepts - it is explainable by the similarity of pseudonymns and the fact there were other examples on LibCom of the same thing which were allowed to stand. He'd stated "You disagreed with danny, man that's pretty fucking low." which implied I was some established and respected forum bully rather than a newcomer arguing a point on my own. He'd also said he'd tried to attend a Bowden demo and so it seemed hypocritical of him to decry John then - in fact he later explained he was coming to meet the group and not support the cause, but he hadn't explained that at the time so it did seem hypocritical. He could easily have attended any of the meetings but hadn't kept in touch so perhaps didn't realise that. And failing to condemn or trying to excuse rape-jokes is beneath any anarchist, a fact LibCom admins have yet to acknowledge. I feel at this point they simply don't want to concede the slightest, most justified point, some machismo thing about not admitting error which is just as shameful as the error itself.

Now I offered the compromise of distributing the leaflet without the LibCom adverts, but I would also be prepared to distribute the leaflet with a warning sticker on the front stating 'Warning:LibCom finds rape funny' - is that acceptable ?

"libcom's been getting sniped at ever since it oriented away from the activist sub-culture towards class struggle."

I'm a working-class activist uninvolved in any sub-culture. Supporting class-struggle means more than wage increases or job security, it has to address the fact twice as many working class people are imprisoned in the UK as in Norway.

"the largest wave of direct action in years "
This is a recurrent and curious claim. I think someone else estimated 400,000 direct actions and that was far more than the unestimated number of anti-war direct-actions. If it is true then it remarkbly ineffectual - what exactly do you count as direct-action ?

Danny

Libcom admin, what a bunch of middle class tossers! enough is enough!

08.08.2007 11:42

Group of middle class retards playing at anarchism before graduating to mummy and daddys trust fund. For years these pricks have been stirring shit within the movement with their fucked up humour and acerbic accusations like its some sort of play thing. so lets see whats next and if they are big enough!

Aunty Christ

Libcom admin, what a bunch of middle class tossers! enough is enough!

08.08.2007 11:44

Group of middle class retards playing at anarchism before graduating to mummy and daddys trust fund. For years these pricks have been stirring shit within the movement with their fucked up humour and acerbic accusations like its some sort of play thing. so lets see whats next and if they are big enough!

Aunty Christ

1 simple, unanswered question

08.08.2007 12:58

The sick jokes on LibCom are awful. Any joke about rape encourages an atmosphere that helps the act be rationalised, even if that is not the intent - as I'm sure it wasn't. The comments of one poster would not allow me to criticise the LibCom site, everyone can say stupid things in argument. It is the fact the admins there fail to moderate such comments that both encourages vitriol and discredits the site more in my opinion.

Now I've obviously been using the rape-joke as a stick to beat them with. So why give me the stick when they could easily take it from me ? That indicates poor judgement as well as poor taste. They think my comments here are offensive to LibCom but if they moderated their own forum to a minimal level of decency then I wouldn't have been able to criticise them on this thread. I don't mind being called a nutter by someone who can't debate a point as I think it reflects worse on them than me not to be able to out-argue a nutter.

I get the impression some LibCom posters think supporting class-struggle is mutully exclusive with supporting other issues such as anti-war, environmentalism, anti-fascism, feminism, prisoner support and human rights. I think this comes from the collapse of the left-wing parties in the west of Scotland and feuds that have nothing to do with me, and I find it regrettable and mistaken. While some people choose to concentrate on particular issues, they are interlinked To adopt a stance that is deliberately exclusive and provocative to people who don't share your priorty and yet invoke a 'solidarity' that isn't reciprocated is damaging.

Jokes about rape wouldn't be tolerated in a peace camp, a union meeting or any other progressive forum. I personally think the postal leaflet is the best thing they've done in years ( being snidey I'd say the only thing ) and would like to support it even though I dislike the site. If LibCom cleaned up their forum then I would, or if they suggested a way to support the postal workers without promoting LibCom then I would.

As it is though, I remain stuck on the question I have asked several times without answer - how can I recommend a forum that allows jokes about rape to any postal worker, let alone a female one ? Is there a LibCom admin who'd like to answer that ?

Danny

Thanks Libcom...

08.08.2007 14:52

A few quick points:

1) If Libcom is done by a group of "middle class retards" then we could do with a hell of a lot more "middle class retards" in anarchism (does the use of the word "retard" in this thread mean you wouldn't hand out Indymedia publicity, Danny?).

2) "Any joke about rape encourages an atmosphere that helps the act be rationalised". What exactly do you mean? Is it that any joke about rape encourages it or merely 'rationalises' it? Plenty of people make jokes about murder, for example, but I don't think that necessarily encourages anyone to do it or creates an atmosphere where its more accepted.

3) I'm not sure if I'm right or not, but there was a Danny on Indymedia advocating voting in the recent Scottish elections in order to bring about Scottish independence. Surely this can't be the same Danny who was throwing around accusations of being "statist" on Libcom?

PS As one of the many people who lurk on Libcom but never really posts I'd agree that at times it can get overly personal and critical and that this is a problem. However, its been a major influence in stopping me getting sucked into lifestylism, ensuring that I don't assume any action or group deserves support simply because it labels itself "anarchist" or "anti-authoritarian", assisted my move towards a genuine class analysis and generally pushed me into being more critical in my politics. Plus, they came up with the stunning and very amusing idea of "Revol68".

Dave

Dave

08.08.2007 15:39

"does the use of the word "retard" in this thread mean you wouldn't hand out Indymedia publicity, Danny"
If jokes about the mentally-handicapped were allowed to stand, excused and defended by the admins here or anywhere then I'd oppose that too just as forceably. I personally find the word retard offensive and regrettable but it was used in anger and doesn't necessarily imply disability, it can mean stupidity. It is an excellent example though because the IMCistas had a big debate about that word recently, whereas I couldn't see the LibCom admins even noticing it, debating it or removing it. Not when there they can't see the problem with a joke about rape which I'd bet wouldn't have stood here for a moment nor caused any debate by it's instant removal.

"Is it that any joke about rape encourages it or merely 'rationalises' it? "
Well, it sets a precedent. Say someone on LibCom next week joked to another poster that 'I'm going to rape you' or 'She deserves to be raped'. Revol68 tried to excuse himself by saying the joke only works because we know rape to be terrible but the same excuse could always be used. I don't know Revol so I don't know his attitude to rape, I'll take him at his word on that, but a huge amount of men obviously do see rape as acceptable given the statistics and so any such 'humour' is unacceptable. I find it worrying to have to explain that to anyone who considers themselves an anarchist.

"Surely this can't be the same Danny who was throwing around accusations of being "statist" on Libcom?"
Hey, it is flattering you are doing your homework on me. Yes, I both support Scottish independence and oppose the future Scottish state that would follow for reasons I explained on that thread. Sorry if that blows your mind but I don't see that as contradictory nor have I met an anarchist has put forward a rational argument against it - if they had I may have changed my opinion. I'm not a statist but I am a pacifist, anti-nuclear, anti-UK, anti-NATO and see independence as a short-cut to those things. I can comfortably argue that position here in depth if you really want to distract from this thread even further - or is that simply an attempt to imply I'm a hypocrite ?

Danny

To Danny

08.08.2007 16:34

I’m still not exactly sure what your argument is. Allowing one joke about rape does not set a precedent for allowing all jokes about rape. There are certain contexts where certain jokes would be appropriate and others where it wouldn’t, dependent on exactly what the joke was. Oh, and the “excuse” could not “always” be used for any joke about rape. You could make “jokes” about rape that would be based on the (utterly wrong) assumption that, rather than being terrible, it was perfectly sensible or nothing that bad at all. It really doesn’t take much imagination to figure that out. And I’d guess these would quite rightly be clamped down on.

No – wasn’t doing any homework on you at all. Its just that the statement you made about supporting Scottish independence stuck in my mind as symptomatic of a certain viewpoint and I remembered it from that (and the fact I’ve a friend called Dan). Don’t flatter yourself that I’d done any checking on your previous posts. Basically your position is as “statist” as that of the SSP, large chunks of whom would equally argue in favour of Scottish independence but the eventual dissolution of the state. I don’t really want an argument here on that and of course your view is entirely consistent with being anti-UK and anti-EU etc etc. However, if you call yourself an anarchist (I think you might have on the original thread, but may be wrong) and certainly if you throw around the word “statist” as an insult and yet advocate not only voting in elections but voting for the constitution of a new state you’re being, at the least, very loose with your vocab.

Dave

not one bit ashamed

08.08.2007 17:53

Revols joke about rape being based on being his assumption it was terrible was only explained when I challenged it. If I hadn't it would still be unexplained. And that still doesn't excuse it, it is neither funny or tasteful. It is sick and symptomatic of the LibCom forum - but even more so since is that it is allowed to remain and continually excused.

As for voting, Noam Chomsky and Utah Phillips - the official singer of the IWW- both recommended voting against the Iraq war after a lifetime of recommending not voting. From someone of their stature and principle I'd take lessons on anarchist ethics, rather than someone who still has failed to see any problem with jokes about male violence against women.

Danny

the irony

08.08.2007 18:09

the irony of all Danny's right-on posturing being he's only doing it to get a shag:  https://publish.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/08/377500.html?c=on#c178063

on the pull

Missing the points...

08.08.2007 18:42

You haven’t really answered any of my points about the joke. Moreover, you decide not to help distribute an excellent leaflet solely because of one joke on a forum that you didn’t like. Perhaps that’s symptomatic of your approach.

Your defence of your stance of voting also fails to answer any of my points, rather being just an exercise in name dropping. Additionally, you’ve made the entirely false suggestion that I “failed to see any problems with jokes about male violence against women” which is complete nonsense. As should be blatantly obvious, I’ve merely questioned the absolute disjointed crap you’ve spoken about one joke and, in fact, have said some jokes about this subject matter should be rightly clamped down on.

Basically you posted some rubbish on Libcom, failed to back up your arguments, got rightly called on it and, in spite, have vindictively written rubbish on a thread designed to support striking workers. Perhaps I should get Chomsky and Phillips to say something about this in their next “lessons on anarchist ethics”.

Dave

Hah!

08.08.2007 21:17

This is the same Danny that e-mailed a threat to rape and murder an activist. I'll repeat, he transmitted a threat to rape an activist. That has being publicly smearing activists here for the better part of a year. That tried to coerce a female activist by sending here mother disturbing emails full of lies. That tries to smear another activist with even sicker lies about sex offences. That has been smearing the admins of Indymedia UK. That has been posting people's private details around the world and trying to incite violence against them. That has been threatening to sell lies to the newspapers.

Now THAT's irony!



Ms. Edna Krabappel

Now that's what I Call Smear

09.08.2007 01:43

Richard,
with such a litany of crimes, and admitting trying to get me arrested ' and 'lose everything', it is odd that the only thing you get police to question me over was a post on IM joking about burning down a Labour party building, after taking my sick parents into questioning. Although the police told me that information came through crimestoppers and they didn't believe it they did let slip to my mother it was nonsense but they had to take it seriously since the information came down from on high. I'm not even a firestarter and would never abuse, rape or even lift my hand to a woman in anger, I'd kill myself before I raped. I've committed no crimes except breach of the peace and malicious mischief ie fencecutting. Oh, and speeding I suppose.
It's true I was so concerned over your behaviour that I warned the mother of a girl I'd been dating that I thought you were a potential menace. You'd attacked a girl before and were acting and talking obessively about her. I believe you to be an agent but the offer still holds of a lie-detector test to prove your innocence - and I'd be happy to sit one too.

Danny

Ever the total liar

09.08.2007 05:19

A direct quote from Danny's e-mail of insane lies and threats:

"If he jokes about me needing viagra again, I will strip him and fuck him there and then, and I've never threatened to rape anyone before. "

Ms. Edna Krabappel

Okay

09.08.2007 07:09

Who was that an email to and about ?

Danny

we'll help out!

10.08.2007 09:01

we're out distroing 'Dispatch' today, thanks for putting this together. This kind of thing is what the libcom project is about - a resource for class struggle and a way of coordinating our resistance.
Well done, you know its appreciated.

Victory to the posties - victory to the workers.

Sheffield Anarchist Federation

Shef AF
mail e-mail: sheffield@af-north.org
- Homepage: http://afed.org.uk

us too

10.08.2007 17:15

we'll be distroing these to brighton posties tomorrow at the start of shift, pity the CWU has suspended the strike so soon really

Brighton SolFed

distroing ??

10.08.2007 20:34

Complete pillocks!

Aunty Christ

Libcom are hierarchical and unelected - self promoting

20.08.2007 13:58

Libcom are a problem in that they are university youngsters trying to play grown up but they have no existence in the 'real world'. They really do think people should listen to them.

But, they have an arrogant elitist attitude, and Raw was right, they are not known, have done nothing, and yet they pretend they are 'it'. I think it is time for them to be brought down a peg or 2.

Scottish Postie
mail e-mail: fucklibcom@praxis.com

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