Israel throughout its 58 year history has neither threated to use nuclear weapons or ever used them. Israel is also a stable democracy which has only ever gone to war self defence! Iran on the other hand is an unstable theocracy ruled by madmen. Iran should never be trusted at all, let alone with nuclear weapons!

I agree with voice of reason, Iran has a proven record of helping terrorists it will only be a matter of time that they pass on their atomic bomb to Hezbollah if they ever have it. They must be stopped before an atomic bomb goes off in Britain.

1) Israel has threatened to use nuclear weapons on many occasions, including against the capital cities of Europe.

2) Israel has used biological weapons in war, and has used nuclear weapons against its own people. The latter was detailed in a documentary shown in Israel and described on Indymedia, until racists running this site hid the article. "Black" jewish children were singled out, and given massive doses of gamma-radiation directly into their heads, using nuclear equipment provided by the US army. This act is the exact same equivalent as shooting kids with bullets to monitor the consequences of the wounds, and thus DOES represent the use of Nuclear Weapons.

And before anyone puffs and blows, YES, in this case Israel is NO DIFFERENT from any other nuclear power. They've all threatened to use their weapons at times, and they have all ACTUALLY used their weapons in experiments on their people (usually members of the armed services).

PS to the staff that run Indymedia, your removal of the article describing the Israeli-produced documentary about ringworm and gamma-radiation is one of the most disgusting acts of child-abusing censorship I have EVER seen on the net. IN NO WAY DOES THE CONTENT OF THAT ARTICLE BREAK ANY OF YOUR GUIDELINES. I am well aware that Indymedia IS NOT what it seems, but when you act on the side of child abuse, I am reminded just how evil some humans are prepared to be to further their political aims. Perhaps you bastards should go take a good long look at the documentary, and listen to the horrific suffering relayed by the various jewish victims of such disgusting medical experimentation. Then perhaps you could inform the rest of us on your front page why you chose to silence their words.

" Israel has threatened to use nuclear weapons on many occasions, including against the capital cities of Europe. "

Let me be frank, Twilight. I don't believe that your claim has any reasonable basis. Please provide substantiation or withdraw your allegation.

Islamic Republican News Agency - very balanced reporting (almost as bad as the BBC!)

Erm, I mean, Indymedia is an anti-Israel terrorist disinfo Psyop, run by Anti-semitic Arab Extremists.

Hm. Wait a minute, let me check my notes...

Twilight, has the phrase 'self parody' ever come to mind.

I can't help but think maybe you're a completely sane person who enjoys writing complete bollocks to wind people up. Or you're a complete lunatic.

But I definately don't think your post should be up on the newswire without any links or evidence to back it up, it's a bit like the medieval blood libel claims against the jews, that they drink the blood of babies, and I am saying this as someone who is no friend of the policies of Israel in the middle-east, and the constant bullshit claims that anti-zionism is anti-semitism. But you blurred that line a long time ago, and I am only waiting for you to start quoting the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' ( which by the way, was written by Tony Blair some 500 years ago, in which is details his plans to carry out the London Tube bombings, using 5 carefully trained MI5 suicide squirrels ).

To further the hypocrisy, the Spook/Troll says that Israel's WMD are just fine (most recently, they threatened - and actually drew up plans with the Americans - the use of nuclear weapons against Iranian installations (presumably to destroy the evidence that they were LYING about Iran's progress in acquiring these weapons).

It further explained, "When one talks about the annihilation of Israel, it does not mean the genocide of the Jewish people, but rather a non-violent confrontation with Zionist schools of thought, which are endangering the Middle East and the entire world."
Noting that Israel is currently threatening world peace and security with its nuclear arsenal, the article said the fact that Israel possesses nine facilities for production of fission nuclear weapons as well as hydrogen and neutron bombs "is a real threat to the world and particularly the critical Middle East region."

A recent issue of National Geographic estimated that Israel has 200 nuclear bombs. Other sources estimate a larger number equaling twice that number.

Because Israel refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty it can be called an outlaw possessor of unregulated weapons of mass destruction and a threat to world peace.

When you combine this threat with the aggressive violent policies of Israel toward the Palestinian Arabs living under military occupation; it is clearly dangerous for the bellicose, intransigent, and recalcitrant Israeli government to be allowed to possess such horrible weapons.

Immediate economic sanctions should be imposed against Israel that forbid any financial transactions with any company or bank operated by Israeli owned interests. This pressure will force Israel to comply with civilized norms, bring these weapon under the control of the appropriate international agencies, and prevent violent Israeli blackmailers from using the weapons in state sponsored terrorist crimes against humanity.

Here is one of hundreds of articles that outline Israel's use of nuclear blackmail

 http://www.carolmoore.net/nuclearwar/israelithreats.html

ST,

That link doesn't post any evidence that Israel threatened nuclear strikes on European cities, in fact the closest we get is a passing (note that) reference to the USSR. My challenge remains - lets see something to back up Twilight's claims.

I hope you can beat your racist, imperialist aggressors.

Hes the voice Bush heard when he tlod us he spoke to GOD. What we are seeing here is unique. God has been posting to indymedia all this time and weve been dissing him.

Should we apologize? Nah. Even if god does exist hes a fucking prick.

As for Rex's comments about the end of the world being near now that Iran want nuclear weapons.

There can be no discrimination about who has nuclear weapons. WHy is it ok for Britain and the US to have and Iran not to have.Lets not forget who the only country to use nuclear weapons on civillians is. thats right u guessed it Amerikkka. Either they all get rid of them (like they should) or Iran can have as many as they like as far as i care.

PS. Iran has more reason to develop nuclear weapons as many analysts claim they may just be the next target voice of reason told Bush to attack.

Just want to reiterate that there has been no evidence that would suggest that Iran is interested in nuclear weapons technology. They are building reactors for power production, and everything else is just the "Iraq Treatment".

Joseph Charles Stockett - just as long as you realise that you sanctions would mean that the world would be deprived of outstanding, industry leading, Israeli developed, produced and marketed medicines and medical equipment.
Sanctions would mean that thousands suffering from cancer, heart disease and diabetes would suffer more and could not be effectively treated.

Twilight still no evidence ---- could it be you made it up.

Iran is an evil anti-democratic regime which denies freedom of religion, speech, conscience; it denies rights to women, the death penalty for gays, prison and death without trial.

It wants to wipe Israel off the map and another 6 million jews with it.

Iran may 'want' to do all this yet the only proof of people actually being wiped out the map comes from USA/Britain and Israel wiping muslims/arabs off the map. Israel with Palestine the USA and Britain with the Iraqis/afghans and were awaiting their next target. My guess is another muslim country.

So fuck off with your stupid assumptions and look at who's committing the real crimes against humanity.

PS the Iranian president was democratically voted by the people of Iran. THe reason they chose such a hardore religious president was to piss countries like your own off due to the constant pressure they exert on countries all over the world to adopt a system which will favour their businesses to go in there and strip the country from its wealth. Fair play to the Iranians and I hope the new president doesnt abuse any human rights. Thatl just make him like Bush and blair.

"I hope the new president doesnt abuse any human rights"

You mean like prison without trial, being dragged from your home never to be seen again, a majority of political prisoners, being stoned to death for adultery, being hanged for being gay, refusing to accept any other religions or beliefs.

Yes -I can see how Iran is a beacon of human rights.

I have read some crass comments on this site, but that is close to the top.

Why do you lot bother slagging each off? You never agree about anything! Wouldn't it be better just to all meet up and have a ruck? At least whoever is left standing can therefore claim to be right and everyone else wrong, then maybe you can all shut the fuck up before you start spouting crap!!!

Why the fuck is a reprint from an Islamic news agency reprinted? I thought Indymedia was for non-hierachical groups. Fuck off all religious bigots - be they Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Hindu etc.

FUCK YOUR RELIGIONS!!! It is religions that have divided humanity through the ages and will continue to do so till humanity throws off the shackles of "God".

"meet up and have a ruck? " - we have been in favour of this for a long time - there will be another Cable Street if the Jew Haters carry on like this.



"Fuck off religious bigots"

Ah the typical view of the extreme left - they want to ban religion (starting with the Jewish one of course)

Isn't cable street where the far left communist party and the jewish community fought together against far right fascism? And then you are talking about the far left wanting to wipe out the jewish religion. Which is it to be?

The Hard Right loves to label its Opposition "the left", or more recently, "the far left", because:

1) It shifts the focus from the supporters of Hard-Right/Neo-Fascist policy, onto the Opposition. The Right needs to do this because they know that their position is indefensible.

2) It disguises how far to the Right, how widely outside the mainstream they, themselves, actually are.

3) It allows them to make their Opposition sound a lot smaller, less diverse, and more radical than it actually is. The Right needs to do this in order to keep their Useful Idiots from paying attention, and that is because they know their position is indefensible and illogical. (Their need to deceive those who give them their uninformed support demonstrates their utter contempt for those they use.) They also must do this to keep up the illusion of prominence, as they are well aware that they are but a tiny, Extremist minority, placed into power through deception, conspiracy, and crime.

4) It allows them to misrepresent what their Opposition believes in, and why they oppose the beliefs and policies of the Hard Right. They do this because they know that they cannot defend their Ideology or Policy, because they defy logic.

- As for the other part of your attack, CRITICISING ISRAEL/ZIONISM IS NOT ANTISEMITISM.

The origin of the Palestine- Israeli conflict
Jews For Justice In The Middle East

As the periodic bloodshed continues in the Middle East, the search for an equitable solution must come to grips with the root cause of the conflict. The conventional wisdom is that, even if both sides are at fault, the Palestinians are irrational "terrorists"who have no point of view worth listening to. Our position, however, is that the Palestinians have a real grievance: their homeland for over a thousand years was taken, without their consent and mostly by force, during the creation of the state of Israel. And all subsequent crimes- on both sides- inevitably follow from this original injustice. This paper outlines the history of Palestine to show how this process occurred and what a moral solution to the region’s problems should consist of. If you care about the people of the Middle East, Jewish and Arab, you owe it to yourself to read this account of the other side of the historical record.

 http://www.zmag.org/content/Mideast/jewsfjustice.cfm

Contrary to common perception, Jewish anti-Zionism is not restricted exclusively to the well know Jewish anti-Zionist movements such as Satmar and Neturei Karta.

There are in fact many Jewish movements, groups and organizations whose ideology regarding Zionism and the so-called "State of Israel" is that of the unadulterated Torah position that any form of Zionism is heresy and that the existence of the so-called "State of Israel" is illegitimate.

No one has had to create any antagonism between our Torah and Zionism because such antagonism exists by virtue of the essence of Judaism itself, which can never tolerate the heresy of Zionism.

Zionism is wrong from the Torah viewpoint, not because many of its adherents are lax in practice or even anti-religious, but because its fundamental principle conflicts with the Torah.

Unfortunately, due to many undesirable factors, the view of Torah-true Jewry has been concealed from the general public.

We, the staff at www.jewsnotzionists.org are delighted that with the advance in media technology a substantial benefit to researchers, students, and the general public has been made available. We are elated at the advantage which the internet provides for the presentation of and accessibility to a position so widely held yet so deliberately ignored by many a Zionist-inclined medium.

It is our hope that the information presented on this site will be of benefit to all and that we soon merit the peaceful dismantlement of the so-called "State of Israel" and that Jewish-Muslim brotherhood be restored as prior to the arrival of the Zionist scheme on the global scene.

 http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

Jews against Zionism
A list of websites opposed to Israel's policies
 http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/jews_against_zionism.html

It would be nice if some Western media outlet, even one of them, would attempt to bring Zionism into the public debate - instead of actively avoiding it, given its prominence in this current Madness we all find ourselves in.

" There are in fact many Jewish movements, groups and organizations whose ideology regarding Zionism and the so-called "State of Israel" is that of the unadulterated Torah position that any form of Zionism is heresy and that the existence of the so-called "State of Israel" is illegitimate. "

There are also many (in fact a clear majority) of religious zionist movements. The United synagogues are Zionist.

3 times a day we look East and pray for a return to Zion and the rebuilding of our Temple. At the end of our major festivals we shout out "NEXT YEAR IN JERUSALEM".

We pray for protection of the whole house of Israel which our Father swore to us.

That's a good site

 http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/differencejudzion.html

"He finally hit on the idea of a Judenstaat, an exclusive Jewish state. Thus from its very beginning Zionism was a result of Anti-Semitism and indeed is completely compatible with it, because Zionists and anti-Semites had (and have) a common goal: To bring all Jews from their places of domicile to the Zionist state, thus uprooting Jewish communities that had existed for hundreds and even thousands of years. Loyalty to the Zionist state was substituted for loyalty to G-d, and the state was made into the modern "golden calf"."

Quite simply that is crap.

The goal of anti semites has generally been to kill Jews; from the York massacre, the Crusades, the Inquisitions to the Nazis. Not to let us live and determine our own future in the land promised to us by God.

We do not therefore share a goal.

Nor do we worship a 'golden calf' - we worship our one G-d, Hashem.

Israel has many holy sites of course, but we do not worship the country or Zionism.

We may believe in Zionism and that we should have a homeland - but that is not worship of a false god.

Zionism has it's root in anti-semitism, as a reaction towards it, and even in the beginning a common cause was found between the zionist movement and the nazi party, even though obviously they hated each other, to get the jews out of germany and into Palestine.


 http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/a-list/2003w27/msg00029.htm

""But quite apart from all slogans and ideological quarrels, it
was in those years a fact of everyday life that only Zionists
had any chance of negotiating with the German authorities,
for the simple reason that their chief Jewish adversary,
the Central Association of German Citizens of Jewish
Faith, to which ninety-five percent of organized Jews in
Germany then belonged, specified in its bylaws that its
chief task was the "fight against anti-Semitism"; it had
suddenly become by definition an organization
"hostile to the State,"and would have been persecuted-
which it was not - if it had dared to do what it was
supposed to do. During its first few years, Hitler's rise
to power appeared to the Zionists chiefly as "the
decisive defeat of assimilationism." Hence, the Zionists
could, for a time, engage in a certain amount of
non-criminal cooperation with the Nazi authorities;
the Zionists too believed that "dissimilation" combined
with the emigration to Palestine of Jewish youngsters
and, they hoped, Jewish capitalists, would be a
"mutually fair solution." At the time, many German
officials held this opinion, and this kind of talk
seemed quite common up to the end. A letter
from a survivor of Theresienstadt, a German Jew,
relates that all the leading positions in the Nazi-
appointed Reichsvereinigung were held by
Zionists (whereas the authentically Jewish
Reichsvertretung had been composed of
both Zionists and non-Zionists), because
Zionists, according to the Nazis were "the
'decent' Jews since they too thought in
'national' terms." To be sure, no prominent
Nazi ever spoke publicly in this vein; from
beginning to end, Nazi propaganda was
fiercely, unequivocally, uncompromisingly
anti-Semitic, and eventually nothing counted
but what people who were still without
experience in the mysteries of totalitarian
government dismissed as "mere propaganda."
There existed in those early years a mutually
satisfactory agreement - a Ha'avarah, or
Transfer Agreement, which provided that an
emigrant to Palestine could transfer his
money there in German goods and exchange
them for pounds on arrival. It was soon the
only legal way for a Jew to take his money
with him (the alternative then being the
establishment of a blocked account,
which could be liquidated abroad only
at a loss between fifity and ninety-five
percent). The result was that in the
thirties, when American Jewry took
great pains to organize a boycott of
German merchandise, Palestine, of
all places was swamped with all kinds
of goods "made in Germany.""

And if one doesn't trust Arendt on these matters, we
can always turn to the Israeli historian Saul Friedlaender.
Below is an except from Friedlaender concerning the
Haavarah or Transfer Agreement which was entered
into by the Nazi regime in Germany, with both German
and Palestinian Zionists, in order to enable the emigration
of German Jews to Palestine, in turn for the breaking
of the boycott of Nazi Germany which had been launched
by leading American Jewish organizations."



Note this sentence in particular

"all the leading positions in the Nazi- appointed Reichsvereinigung were held by
Zionists (whereas the authentically Jewish Reichsvertretung had been composed of
both Zionists and non-Zionists), because Zionists, according to the Nazis were "the 'decent' Jews since they too thought in 'national' terms."


I am not trying to say that zionism were complicit in the crimes of nazism, because obviously they were hated enemies of each other, and yet they have their root in the same flawed ideology...that jews are somehow different to everybody else, and for that reason cannot live together in the same place, and that the presence of jews creates conflict in whatever community they live.

Tell me, do you take that ideological position, because I certainly do not. I choose to believe that if we work hard, we can share all the places, cities, lands and resources of the world as one human race, and we do not need to draw artificial borders to seperate ourselves from each other. I believe nationalism is a mental disease, that creates division where none should exist, and to that end I believe if the jews want to live in historic Palestine, so be it, and if the Palestinians want to live there too, so be it. They lived together in that land before, and they can do it again.

If not, then the cycle of conflict will keep going and increasing, and I ask you, just how safe are the jews all together in a country the size of wales, surrounded by a dispossessed and angry muslim community, who see their land has been taken away from them? How safe are they when the President of Iran declares 'Israel should be wiped from the map', and may or may not be pursuing nuclear weapons. A likely response is that the west will attack Iran in order to keep Israel safe, but for how long can this continue. How long can you keep fighting, and keeping the dragon at bay? In reality, it is an unwinnable conflict, because the more you resort to force, the more resentment and hatred is built up. If Iran is attacked, this will further inflame the muslim world.
What if, eventually, someone gets their hands on nuclear weapons who possesses this fanatical hatred for Israel? It seems almost inevitable. What if Pakistan suddenly succumbs to an Islamic revolution? Or even if this apocalyptic vision doesn't occur, the day may come when Israel finds itself under militiary occupation, and the people will suffer, far more than if the way of peace and co-existence had been sincerely followed.

Nationalism is a disease, and if you care for the future of the Jewish people, you will find a different way in which to express jewish principles and spirituality than through states, flags and armies, all of which will fall in time.

"It is our hope that the information presented on this site will be of benefit to all and that we soon merit the peaceful dismantlement of the so-called "State of Israel" and that Jewish-Muslim brotherhood be restored as prior to the arrival of the Zionist scheme on the global scene."

Does whoever posted this know NOTHING of history? "Jewish-Muslim brotherhood" before Zionism? Try reading Marx's report on Jerusalem, and how oppressed the Jews were there by the Muslims. Try reading any history book on what the Jews lived like under the Muslims.

And

"It would be nice if some Western media outlet, even one of them, would attempt to bring Zionism into the public debate - instead of actively avoiding it, given its prominence in this current Madness we all find ourselves in."

Ever read the Guardian? Try it, its against Israel and Zionism. So's the Independent. Arethey not Western media?

Why do you cite the websites of a miniscule minority of Jewish fundamentalist extremists? Do you realise that these people believe that Zionists caused the Holocaust? Just because they're Jews, or claim to be, does't mean they cant spout anti-Semitic bullshit. There are Jewish holocaust deniers you know....

The websites in question are not run by extremists. Zionists are Extremists.

Jews and Arabs coexisted in relative peace in Palestine, until European Zionists polarized the region with their stated plans for ethnic cleansing, violence, and land theft.

If by "relative peace" you mean Jews being brutally oppressed by Muslims, then yes they co-existed fine.

And it was not evil "European Zionists" that caused trouble. The first wave of Jews to emigrate to Palestine, in the late C19th, were from other places in the Ottoman empire, motivated by their own natural Zionist beliefs.

Empty swamp land was bought from absentee Turkish landowners between 1890 - 1930s and was turned into arable land by zionist pioneers.

Once it could sustain farms, Arabs gangs attacked to take the land.

Hermes, Zionism predates Nazism and whilst it may have its roots in anti-semitism (with Herzl and the Dreycott affair) - would you not be better to try to rid the world of anti-semitism rather than asking us to expose ourselves to it again without the protection our homneland has offered?

Jewish separation from Gentiles originates in the theological proposal linking circumcision to religious identity and conformity to the Law of Moses.

This voluntary separation produced a form of racialist superiority doctrine that was later emulated by the Gentiles in response to the Jewish assertion of racial supremacy.

Zionism is the political manifestation of Jewish separatist theory, as several thoughtful authors have posited in this discussion.

The Zionist theory breeds similar postulates of racial superiority by other ethnic groups in response to the ideas generated by the conceptualization of one group being inherently superior to another.

This is why I am an anti-Zionist advocate of racial equality and why I do not believe the State of Israel can survive in its present form as an exclusivistic racial state.

I actually care about the Jewish people and have tried to convince them of this error in their ideology but Jews have generally accused me of being against them, and Jews have repeatedly threatened me with violence and have spat on me for my efforts to reach out to them in peace.

This has caused me to attack Zionism even more, as I realize it is an evil ideology that must be struggled against for the sake of both Jews and Arabs.

Israel is a threat to world peace and economic sanctions combined with an immediate tourist boycott of Israel are beginning steps to resolving the problem of reckless proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.

Israel has, so far, been able to deceive the world by hiding behind the holocaust to justify non-compliance with acceptable norms of behavior. These norms require signing on to the various treaties and international agreements regulating and inspecting these nuclear facilities.

Every conceivable pressure should be brought to bear on the political process to insure that Israeli non-compliance is a temporary phase of bellicose resistance to the standards of human decency Israel must abide by.

Otherwise, it will be prudent for the whole world to take steps eliminating the Israeli Terror Threat through Global Force Stabalization, i.e. military intervention in the region by International Accord via the proper institutions of enforcement.

Israel isn't a legitimate state because its behavior excludes it from being recognized. It is only when the Jewish people arrive at a reasonable solution to recognizing the rights of others that they are justified in demanding recognition for their own Jewish state.

It is a Jewish problem with making demands and then using the past to justify their own bad behavior. Why should the peoples of the world bow down to Jewish demands for inclusion when they treat others abusively and engage in unacceptable conduct that violates the fundamental rules of the United Nations Charter.

The illegal actions of Israel. The Israeli state sponsored terrorism. The lack of respect for the Palestinians. The invasion of Lebanon. All this adds up to the conclusion that the Jews don't want peace or fairness. They want what the American Despot George Bush wants: domination, power, control, and immunity from the consequences of their illegal and immoral acts.

I will never recognize Israel as a legitimate state until Israel renounces its Zionist doctrine of Jewish racism contained within its own ideology. Then, I demand a chage in behavior consistant with civilized norms of conduct.

Today it is Israel and its American Lobbying group AIPAC that is criminally responsible for the lack of peace in the region and no outpouring of Israeli propaganda is going to change my mind because I'm looking at the facts on the ground.

I am a Christian and I have profound affection for the Jewish people whose history I feel closely related to, but I cannot recognize their Jewish state under the present conditions because their ideology and behavior are an obstacle to world peace.