Yes! Rain's wet too!

Buy Organic Only

It seems we may have underestimated the militancy of middle class consumerism.

Mr Data, set course for Earth. Warp 6. Engage!

...and if you don't want corporate control of the food supply chain, an ever increasing dependency on cars and oil[1], the destruction of local economies and the even wider disparities between the rich and poor that come part and parcel... nah.. what am i on about? lets get down to Tesco's and complain about their bread!

[1] Have a quick look at  http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ for more information about how all that is going to change

of course i wouldn't dream of criticising the good church of consumerism, but why not bake your own bread? it's easy fun cheap and damn delicious

The above selection of comments, where there is little to argue about factually, show the worst aspect of some of the nasty, sneering contributors to Indymedia. Haven't you got anything more constructive to do? Re gristle's comment, the aspect of the system you point out and the lack of reak bread at supermarkets are all part of the same problem.

Are you all aiming to welcome new contributors who might come from a different background to you, so you can gradually open their eyes to the awful truth as you see it? Seems to me more like showing your right-on cred by putting people down so some of them at least will go away and not bother any more.

Most of the above selection of comments, where there is little to argue about factually, show the worst aspect of some of the snide, sneering contributors to Indymedia. Haven't you got anything more constructive to do? Re gristle's comment, the aspect of the system you point out and the lack of real bread at supermarkets are all part of the same problem.

Are contributors aiming to welcome newcomers who might come from a different background to you, so you can gradually open their eyes to the awful truth as you see it? Seems to me more like showing your right-on cred by putting people down - result will be that some of them at least will go away and not bother any more.

Get down the supermarket and buy yourself a sense of humour Paul. Two-for-one at Tescos now.

Your article was informative, well written and pithy with it. Keep it up. We need more stuff like that.

By-the-way, did you know baked beans make you fart Paul. Or would you say "Trump" or "bottom burp". My tomato sources are telling me there is going to be some sensational research published in the Sun about it, some time this week.

Sorry, just joking Paul B.

Thanks for posting that Brian.
I keep noticing that many of the breads sold increasingly contain soya flour. Seems more than a coincidence is likely since the introduction on GM soya. The bread does not taste the same - more like fluffy cardboard. I've found a few that do not contain it if I look around.

As to baking it myself - I do not know how and do not have time to learn and do that at the moment.

"As to baking it myself - I do not know how and do not have time to learn and do that at the moment"

Buy a bloomin' (hoho) breadmaker. They're about 40 quid in Argos.

And while we're on the bleedin' obvious, processed foods usually contain lots of crap. Read labels, choose carefully, and where necessary make your own.

Sheesh.

"And so, the "mashed meat" that is the hunger reducer for poor salaried workers, who eat it standing up in the decor of train stations, can give itself the allure of modernism, chosen by those who eat McDonald's and think Actuel.

How did we get to this point? Who wanted this?"

 http://www.notbored.org/abat-faim.html

Good advice on buying a breadmaker...they're an easy and hassle free way to get the bread you want.

However this doesn't mean that the supermarket bread issue (and other foods) is not an important one. There are a lot of people who will never have the wit or the inclination to properly research what they are eating. Many children are fed stuff like this. Busy parents are even less likely to be able to deal with these issues. Wouldn't it be better if we could just get the supermarkets to make decent bread? (Using decent flour as well - no flour improver for me please - mine is a spelt and rye.)

When I lived in Britain I remember many wonderful bakeries, until I moved to London that is. Aren't supermarkets awful? Every household needs someone at home to sort out beautiful food.

I know this is going a bit off topic.....but about that first silly comment about rain. I'm not sure that rain is wet. Is water itself wet? Isn't something wet when water is adhering to it or if water has been absorbed into it? It doesn't seem to make much sense to say that the rain itself is wet. When its raining its wet outside. The raindrops themselves aren't wet. If Phil drinks a glass of water and absorbs it into his body is he then wet? No, not in everyday usage. He just has a water content. Looks like there's some concept of a normal water content. A pizza base contains water but is not necessarily wet. Think of dry and soggy pizza bases.

When you analyse it I think "rain is wet" might be a tautology. The stuff about the bread certainly isn't so bleedin obvious.

Tesco's own brand baked beans produce the largest volume of fart per kilogram. Sometimes the farting can last for over two days. They are mostly impotent farts; that is the smell lacks content.

However, if you go for Safeway's beans in a rich tomato sause, letting one rip on the tube the following morning on the way to work will stink the whole carriage out. This could make you very unpopular indeed. Technically, it's whiffy coefficent is extraordinarily high.

Suggestions on how to escape blame and embarassment. Drop one just before you get off at your stop; move to the door swiftly and leave. Secondly, use preemption and blame the person next to you. Say to them somthing along the lines: "I used to have a problem like that, but I stopped eating Safeway baked beans.", whilst firmly holding the nose.

Anyone want advice on these matters - don't hessitate etc ...

Incidently: "Happy Shopper" beans can cause very messy follow-through. Dont be caught out, carry a spare pair of underpants (or knickers). There should be a warning on the label.

(Note: the the above has been leaked from a soon to be published sensational bit of research by the Sun)

PAULB: "Re gristle's comment, the aspect of the system you point out and the lack of reak bread at supermarkets are all part of the same problem"

Firstly, I am sorry if my comments seem a bit harsh. Supermarkets are always mentioned by the mainstream media as the standard outlet for food in the UK. Even the governments own Countryside Agency spoke, on the BBC, a couple of years ago about a new campaign they were launching to try to promote locally produced food but the message they propagated was that of urging supermarket chains to start selling locally sourced produce rather than encouraging people to start thinking about the bigger picture and buy their food directly from local producers or small shops: David pleading with Goliath.

The aspect of the system I point out, through my eyes, is that supermarkets are not some friendly giant we should be trying to persuade to do the "right thing". Supermarket's have been allowed, by successive governments, to destroy local economies and small traders (especially since the advent of the "Tesco Express" etc.). They do not serve the public interest as they play a major part in keeping the vast population dependent on their cars amongst other things already mentioned.

PAULB : "Are you all aiming to welcome new contributors who might come from a different background to you, so you can gradually open their eyes to the awful truth as you see it?"

No. Firstly, the gentleman who posted the message is not a new contributor [  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/04/289780.html ] and the subsequent discussion that ensued from the link above followed a similar path with regards to cars and our further dependency on them being a social problem that needs addressing properly (i.e. not another technological quick fix). I am assuming that by the "awful truth" you are referring to the main message in the LATOC web site. If so that is what it is, awful and true but not just as I see it. I have no pleasure in directing people to this site but at the end of the day, we are going to see the carpet of cheap oil pulled from under our feet and if nothing has been done to prepare for this then simply obtaining any kind of bread, be it the real thing or not, will be much more of an issue. The truth isn't nice but we need to deal with it now.[1]

It saddens me to see that no political party has publicly acknowledged this pending calamity, although it is not too much of a surprise considering the magnetude of the problem and the long term planning required (apart from the BNP, of all people![2]). Even when writing to MP's to ask about what is being considered the best answer I have received so far is that we have years to sort things out and the understanding that peak oil was not going to simply present itself as a problem with transport was completely absent.

"Seems to me more like showing your right-on cred by putting people down so some of them at least will go away and not bother any more."

There is no "right on cred" about any of this. I just find it hard to see any kind of news about what we should or should not do to try and make supermarkets play nicely as it is tantamount to tidying up a sinking titanic. If my reaction was too harsh them you have my apologies.

[1] more information about the problem can been found at:  http://www.peakoil.net/ ,  http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/ ,  http://www.peakoil.com/ ,  http://jameshowardkunstler.typepad.com/clusterfuck_nation/ ,  http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2003/12/02/the-bottom-of-the-barrel/

[2]  http://www.bnp.org.uk/peakoil/index.htm

Their are many varieties of rain; currently, it's lightly spitting outside.

About bread, namely the white, sliced shit that a lot of people eat, particular working class folks.

I know it has bags of salt in it to give flavour; now that's a big health hazard. I really think you do have something here. Sorry for being a little sarcastic but if you start some sort of campaign, on bread and foods in general, you'll get a lot of crap, particularly if you go on the media. So hopefully, this will have been good training.

I would support such a campaign really. The crap that people eat really effects their physical and mental health, and particularly young people's ability to learn.

The food industry is dried by profit, and not in providing good healthy food. It might be an idea to trall around and find out who's got campaigns up. Jamie Oliver was prominent this year in promoting good food.

But bread is such a staple of our diet so it might be a good starting point. Home baking and all that.

Their used to be bakers in the community, but capitalism drive to monopoly means bread making has ended up in a few hands.

Perhaps you could see how many small bakers their are, in your area or around the country.
Perhaps a few people could get together and form a co-operative and start small scale, for friends, then build it up from their.

I think that would be quite an exciting thing to do. Maybe a home baking day, too.

Well, it's all food for thought, anyway.

Can someone bang up a recipe and I will bake some bread this week, or next.

Now I am going out, and will see if this "spitting" rain wets me.

Happy baking. Anyone got a recipe.

Hello all,

Thanks for the comments on my note about supermarket bread containing hydrogenated fat. I thought it was interesting, and since so many people shop at supermarkets, I thought it would be worthwhile drawing peoples attention to it.

I can see that this was not the right forum to place this post, since most of the people here are already aware of such things. I'm well aware of the damage that supermarkets have done and are doing, but I thought bread was an interesting issue since it is such a staple ingredient of our diet.

It's true that if everyone stopped shopping at supermarkets then we could possibly shut them down, but that is not going to happen in the immediate future. Surely it does not do any harm to also make supermarkets aware of the reasons why we are chosing to shop elsewhere? Or to try and make more people aware of the rubbish supermarkets are feeding them and their children?

Wouldn't it be better if the people who post here could co-operate in a friendly way when our aims are similar? Or would you prefer to behave like schoolchildren taunting and humiliating the kid who doesn't share your views, rather than supportively suggesting and explaining alternative points of view?

I'm sorry I bothered. I won't irritate you with any more pointless observations.

Brian

"It's true that if everyone stopped shopping at supermarkets then we could possibly shut them down, but that is not going to happen in the immediate future. Surely it does not do any harm to also make supermarkets aware of the reasons why we are chosing to shop elsewhere? Or to try and make more people aware of the rubbish supermarkets are feeding them and their children?"

The answer to that last question is definitely yes. I wasn't aware of the hydrogenated fat in supermarket bread. Many people here have concerns over particular issues - but that doesn't mean they don't come accross other things that interest them - I certainly didn't come looking for articles about bread. But bread really is important as a basic staple food. Anyone who thinks we're going to be able to abolish supermarkets is clearly being unrealistic. It is much more realistic to prompt / suggest / impose reform on these institutions regarding this and other topics. There is certainly a conveniance and utility in buying all your ingredients under one roof. This makes me wonder what happened to the co-op.

"Wouldn't it be better if the people who post here could co-operate in a friendly way when our aims are similar? Or would you prefer to behave like schoolchildren taunting and humiliating the kid who doesn't share your views, rather than supportively suggesting and explaining alternative points of view?"

Quite so....we should be having higher quality discussions than those found in the House of Commons. That doesn't seem like a very high target to aim for. However I think you're always going to have to ignore the odd churlish comment in the interests of free speach. I'd like to hear if someone had a really viable plan for getting rid of supermarkets and going back to nice bakers, butchers and grocers......or going forward too....?

In the mean time it would be good to get this bread thing sorted out. If attention to this could be brought to someone like Jamie Oliver (never thought I'd say that - he really annoys me!) then maybe this would help. I find it amazing that you can't get bread without hydrogenated fat.

You made me go and check the ingredients on my current loaf.....breathes a sigh of relief.... Ingredients: Water, Wheat Flour, Mixed Grains (11%) [Wheat, Rye (2%)], Kibbled Spelt (10%), Wheat Gluten, Kibbled Corn, Canola Oil, Yeast, Salt, Milk Solids, Malted Barley, Vinegar. That's bread bought in an NZ supermarket. There are definitley some bad things about NZ supermarkets - no free range, corn fed chickens, pretty much no organic meat (in fact I think because we're still closer to nature over here anyway we don't go in for this organic labelling on everything.) One really good thing is that fruit and veg departments are very seasonal and local. Also fruit and veg that is past its best gets passed to farmers for animal feed rather than chucked in a skip and covered in bleach. Of course in Auckland its probably as bad as in the UK or worse - like hell on earth - they can probably buy strawberrys in the middle of winter --- mmmmmm - nice and tasteless all year round.

I reckon this is the right forum. There's no need to let it be overrun by angry, activist, kids with a chip on their shoulder. Just keep on posting the good stuff!

Brian :"It's true that if everyone stopped shopping at supermarkets then we could possibly shut them down, but that is not going to happen in the immediate future."

Stewart: "Anyone who thinks we're going to be able to abolish supermarkets is clearly being unrealistic."

In the next few years (and we are not talking about the distant future), supermarkets will not be able to operate due to high transportation costs, the high costs of intensive, petrochemical reliant agriculture and the high costs of running central distribution warehouses.

Unless we start to rebuild the localised infrastructure that they have been allowed to virtually destroyed in most parts of the UK we are going to face some very serious problems. Maybe it is totally unrealistic to suggest that we could scale supermarkets back down. In such case it is totally realistic that we will continue business as usual, crash and suffer the consequences because we didn't have the collective foresight to see what was coming.

It was the following from the original post that really got my hackles up:

"If you want to buy real, unadulterated bread that is not harmful to your health, why not contact your local supermarket and ask them why they are not selling it?"

It simply repeats the same meme that is presented by the mainstream media time and time again: "...which should be available from you local supermarket" etc, etc.

If you want good food, support your local producers before they disappear rather than asking the supermarket "powers that be" to change their ways. I mean what's better, getting proper bread from a local baker or getting a supermarket to change it's ways so that you can continue to shop there and not bother with the bakery?

Stewart: "There's no need to let it be overrun by angry, activist, kids with a chip on their shoulder."

No there is not. Unfortunately this is not the thoughts of an angry activist kid with a chip on his shoulder. This is the thoughts of someone who realises that we are soon to experience a paradigm shift in our society. Business as usual will not be able to continue and we have only the option to change our ways or suffer the consequences. It may seem far fetched but I urge you to actually read some of the links that I posted especially some of the forums and articles on  http://www.powerswitch.org.uk/

I was trying to be supportive of Brian, when I made that comment about young angry activists. That comment, "It seems we may have underestimated the militancy of middle class consumerism." from Memory-Hole-Catchers-Mitt was what really prompted that. I should really have followed my own advice and simply ignored or laughed at this. Sorry that wasn't really very helpful of me.

I certaintly didn't mean to apply that to you gristle. I think your post is a valuable contribution to the debate....in fact I followed some of your links when you first posted them. We can definitely agree that if we continue our current consumption pattern then we'll end up with an oil supply problem. It doesn't look like we have a very reliable time scale / knowledge of reserves. Also the oils not going to suddenly run out - its going to get more expensive for a long time. This is clearly a very serious issue. 20 years ago in geography classes it used to come up all the time - we were taught we'd have run out of oil by now - the whole thing just fizzled out but I didn't think it had become an infinitie resource!

It would be possible to crank up the canal system again, make better use of rail and shipping, building rail links to supermarkets or build supermarkets on rail links. It'd also be possible for the supermarkets to buy more food more locally. There is another problem here - people seem to like to congregate en masse like in London and Auckland. The populations are way too dense for really local food production. That's a bigger problem than supermarkets!

You've also got to take into account trade relations with other countries....what would happen to poor Kenya if we suddenly stopped buying all those beans in favour of locally grown varieties. There's a lot of stupidity that could be fixed though. Duchy Original Ginger Biscuits have ginger grown in Australia. The ginger is shipped all the way to the UK where they make the biscuits and then ship them all the way back to NZ! I guess the other ingredients come from elsewhere - but they can all be grown in NZ / Australia. They are good biscuits though! I guess that shows up quite a problem with branding in general - it'd be better if I knew Mr. Bourbon down the road who made good biscuits.

I agree that there is an issue with supermarkets and transportation in terms of oil supply (also in terms of enviornmental impact from burning that oil.) I don't think the supermarkets are going anywhere though. I might be wrong (I hope so because I have a long standing dislike of supermarkets - because of food quality and because I like to know who I'm giving my money to.) I think its more realistic to expect supermarkets and food production companies to adopt better transport policies.

I can see how the oil situation may compel supermarkets - either through cost or legislation - to change their behaviour. I can't see it putting them out of business though. Maybe some people are thinking about the end of the entire capitalist system. I have sympathy with that, but I'd say don't put all your eggs in one basket - if we can make organisations and help people that exist now to behave better than that is surely a good thing.

Whatever happens with the oil situation, your local supermarket will be there for at least the next 10 years (I'd say quite a bit more but 10 is enough!) I do think that its worthwhile to put pressure on them to produce decent bread during this time period. It'd also be a good idea to support smaller scale bread produciton. No doubt the hydrogenated fat is nice and cheap. I wouldn't want to see the supermarkets move the top end of their bread range to healthier fats and leave children and poor people sliced white with the nasty cheap stuff.

BTW..... Petrol in NZ is still cheaper than milk (although it has gone up from around $1 to $1.37 per litre in the last couple of years. $1 = 40p) NZ also has incredibly productive dairy land. You should hear the local boys complaining about the petrol price.

Cheers

Thanks very much to gristle for his/her reply ("Oh come on..") to my comment ("Snide").

I take most of the points gristle made. Perhaps my original posting had some redirected frustration from some of the other snide comments I have seen on other pages.

But gristle, you write " I just find it hard to see any kind of news about what we should or should not do to try and make supermarkets play nicely as it is tantamount to tidying up a sinking titanic" and yet others would take the same approach to your writing to MPs - I am not saying I agree with them, but they would. What my issue is (and this was originally with 3 or 4 posts from different people, and their cumulative effect), is how we express our differences and tell others we think they have their priorities wrong.

Is it "I think you're wrong on this, consider this alternative" or is it (taking into account some views expressed on other pages) "you middle-class tosser, everyone knows that, why aren't you out on the streets throwing bricks at the pigs"?

Also, can we cope with the likelihood that "the answer" to our problems is not one answer, but the result of many people taking different paths - whilst still having debate about which paths are the most useful.

You are dead right about the possible peak in oil production being the big issue, but how we respond to any political situation will inevitably vary from person to person too.

While on that topic, there is "THE END OF OIL - CONFERENCE ON PEAK OIL, FOOD AND THE ECONOMY, LONDON, 11TH OCTOBER 2005

A major conference examining the peak oil problem & its impact on climate change, the world's food supply & the world economy. Speakers include Michael Meacher MP, Tim Lang & Andrew Simms (of NEF), chaired by Dr Ian Gibson MP. The conference is organised by East Anglia Food Link, CRed, Sustain and PowerSwitch."

More at East Anglia Food Link  http://www.eafl.org.uk/default.asp?topic=ByTheme&topic=Oiltopic=ByTheme&topic=Oil&topic=OilConf

Response to Stewart:

> We can definitely agree
> that if we continue our current consumption pattern then we'll end up
> with an oil supply problem. It doesn't look like we have a very
> reliable time scale / knowledge of reserves. Also the oils not going
> to suddenly run out - its going to get more expensive for a long time.

That is correct. Sorry if my previous postings were not too clear, I was replying whilst also trying to do god knows how many things during the day.

I do not believe that oil will just run out. We are going to see a hike in prices although I am not too sure how steep that hike will on a price vs time chart.
Oil will get more and more expensive as it starts to cost more to extract the sour crude that is left until the point where the energy required to extract and refine it will be more than the energy supplied via the refined oil at the end of the process.

You probably know this already so I don't need to go into too much detail about the advent of peak oil.

> It would be possible to crank up the canal system again, make better
> use of rail and shipping, building rail links to supermarkets or build
> supermarkets on rail links.

The are a few problems with this though.

The canal system could be used again but still we will need fossil fuels to power the barges that would deliver goods via them. I am not sure how feasible it would to build rail links directly to supermarkets. Constructing new supermarkets near existing rail lines would require a lot of industrial work hence a lot of oil energy for the machinery required to do so. Something of this magnitude would probably not be done proactively and so left until the time when the fuel for such machinery would not be available.

The other side of the coin is, even if we were to maintain some kind of transport system to supply the supermarkets, what will they be selling? Most of food in the supermarkets these days are produced on farms that rely on the cheap petrochemicals to power the machinery used by them. How long will they be able to produce they amount of food they do at the moment with oil prices getting higher and higher and eventually unavailable?

> It'd also be possible for the supermarkets
> to buy more food more locally. There is another problem here - people
> seem to like to congregate en masse like in London and Auckland. The
> populations are way too dense for really local food production. That's
> a bigger problem than supermarkets!

I agree. This is the same problem with all large cities in the UK. Again this is something that needs to be addressed and is a much bigger problem that just supermarkets.

> You've also got to take into account trade relations with other
> countries....what would happen to poor Kenya if we suddenly stopped
> buying all those beans in favour of locally grown varieties.

But that is the problem. It is inevitable that we will have to stop buying all those beans as we will not have the energy to use transporting good like that across the globe!

> There's a
> lot of stupidity that could be fixed though. Duchy Original Ginger
> Biscuits have ginger grown in Australia. The ginger is shipped all the
> way to the UK where they make the biscuits and then ship them all the
> way back to NZ! I guess the other ingredients come from elsewhere -
> but they can all be grown in NZ / Australia. They are good biscuits
> though!

Well that is one of the biggest problems with supermarkets at the moment. The products are very well travelled to start off with, as you mentioned above, and are then shipped around the country on the roads from centralised distribution centres. Surely this is an argument for moving to a localised food production system on its own.

There was an article in the guardian recently that reported on the all time high of food miles due to supermarket distribution centres. [  http://politics.guardian.co.uk/green/story/0,9061,1529102,00.html ]

It speaks for itself really.

> I agree that there is an issue with supermarkets and transportation in
> terms of oil supply (also in terms of enviornmental impact from
> burning that oil.) I don't think the supermarkets are going anywhere
> though. I might be wrong (I hope so because I have a long standing
> dislike of supermarkets - because of food quality and because I like
> to know who I'm giving my money to.) I think its more realistic to
> expect supermarkets and food production companies to adopt better
> transport policies.

They would have to adopt some incredible transport policies to carry on as they are doing at the moment and even then they are simply delaying the inevitable.

> I can see how the oil situation may compel supermarkets - either
> through cost or legislation - to change their behaviour. I can't see
> it putting them out of business though.

Well I think that the most optimistic outcome is that they will be forced by energy resources to downsize to something resembling the old system of small retailers selling local produce. I don't think the ability to co-ordinate a national business like this is going to work either without the systems of communication and transport we have now, so they will probably end up back in the control of the people who work them.

Response to PaulB:

> But gristle, you write " I just find it hard to see any kind of news
> about what we should or should not do to try and make supermarkets
> play nicely as it is tantamount to tidying up a sinking titanic" and
> yet others would take the same approach to your writing to MPs - I am
> not saying I agree with them, but they would.

No that is a fair point. The reason I wrote to the MP's I did was more out of a general interest in finding out if there are any discussions going on at the moment in their respective parties about what they are going to suggest with regards to the peak oil situation.

The difference is that I am not asking them to do something about it, and I am certainly not saying that pleading with them to do something will get us anywhere. The original posting on the topic mentioned that if we wanted good bread we should ask the supermarkets why they are not providing it. I don't have much faith in the political system to get us out of this problem. I mean after 6 months of negotiations, the G8 came to the conclusion that climate change is real and that some difficult decisions are going to have to be made about it (in a manor of speaking) which isn't much considering the length of time the problem has been acknowledged for by many of the newspapers and television / radio news. I don't think relying on the standard political channels is a great idea as it tends to be very slow moving and reactive. I think a lot of effort will be needed on a community level to make our lives more sustainable.

> What my issue is (and
> this was originally with 3 or 4 posts from different people, and their
> cumulative effect), is how we express our differences and tell others
> we think they have their priorities wrong.
>
> Is it "I think you're wrong on this, consider this alternative" or is
> it (taking into account some views expressed on other pages) "you
> middle-class tosser, everyone knows that, why aren't you out on the
> streets throwing bricks at the pigs"?

Well yeah, you are certainly right about this. My first comment was hardly constructive.

> You are dead right about the possible peak in oil production being the
> big issue, but how we respond to any political situation will
> inevitably vary from person to person too.
>
> While on that topic, there is "THE END OF OIL - CONFERENCE ON PEAK
> OIL, FOOD AND THE ECONOMY, LONDON, 11TH OCTOBER 2005
>
> A major conference examining the peak oil problem & its impact on
> climate change, the world's food supply & the world economy. Speakers
> include Michael Meacher MP, Tim Lang & Andrew Simms (of NEF), chaired
> by Dr Ian Gibson MP. The conference is organised by East Anglia Food
> Link, CRed, Sustain and PowerSwitch."

Actually, I am planning to attend this conference along with a friend of mine who has recently become the regional contact for Leeds on powerswitch. I included a link to information about it to the MP's I emailed but honestly, considering the replies (all 2 of them) I have had so far, I am not convinced they really have managed to differentiate between a problem about the amount of oil left in the ground and the economic devastation that will occur when it becomes too expensive to extract it.

I thought I'd give the supermarkets a chance to respond to this. I sent the following to Tesco, Sainsbury and Asda (via their websites):

> I'd like to refer you to a discussion that has been taking place regarding your bread. The discussion is focused on bread but actually branches off into wider issues, I'm really writing to you just because of the bread.
>
>  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/07/319508.html
>
> Please feel free to comment here or reply to me as you see fit. I am sending this message to Tesco, Asda and Sainsbury.
>
> Regards,
> Stewart Stevens

just wanted to quickly point out that while, in an earlier comment, I was complaining about the Countryside Agency's spokesman on the BBC reiterating the 'plead with the supermarkets to make a change' meme, the eat-the-view campaign they are running actually does provide a lot of encouragement for people to think about the food they are buying, where is has come from and alternatives to supermarket shopping.

the address for the campaign site is

www.eat-the-view.org.uk

 http://www.bigbarn.co.uk/ is also a really useful site for finding local alternatives to supermarket shopping. You can enter your postcode and get a map of the nearest local producers, from farm shops to small breweries.

Interesting in the light of the above to read this (which I present without comment!);

" Wal-Mart, the largest retailer in the world, unveiled a new store outside of Dallas, Texas that could revolutionize how the company builds and powers their stores. The experimental design combines a host of renewable energy technologies including numerous solar PV arrays, two, small wind turbines, a bio-fuel boiler to recycle and burn recovered oil from store operations and a nearly endless list of energy-saving and sustainable design principles.

The project represents an industry first for big box retailers. For the next three years, the company has arranged through the Oak Ridge National Laboratory and other partners to carefully analyze every aspect of this experiment in sustainable, big box store design. The results, if satisfying, could profoundly change the way Wal-Mart, and even the retail industry as a whole, designs, constructs, and manages buildings and their energy use."

Full article at  http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/072605_world_stories.shtml

I've heard back from Asda and Sainsbury's.

Sainsbury's declines to comment further than their response to Dr Brian McMillan.

Asda says, "I am afraid that we are unable to open the link from the website so cannot comment further."
I copied and pasted the message I posted in this thread to all the stores. The link is still working as you can verify. I suppose something could have gone wrong with the site, or Asda could have had an IT problem, or ...... Its up to you to decide!

Hopefully the fact that we haven't heard from Tesco yet means they have a more considered response.

I must say it would've been nice if the discussion had been more focused and devoid of some of the senseless commentary.....nonetheless I hope this at least goes a little further in raising awareness and making a change.

Baking is one thing that I get really passionate about. The fact that supermarket bread has loads of shit in it is one problem, but another is the fact that is so utterly homogenous. There are so many local traditions throughout Britain and Europe in terms of making bread that are nearly being wiped out by the dominance of supermarkets, especially in Britain, who cater to the lowest common denomonator of food tastes (i.e. salty, sweet or bland).

The best thing about baking is that you can make all kinds of crazy bread that you would never get in the supermarket, whether it's weird flours or random fruit, nuts and seeds thrown into the mix. It's kind of like choosing to grow varieties of fruit and veg that you can no longer get in supermarkets. You can also always use up things that are leftover or not edible anymore, like using really over-ripe bananas to make banana bread. If you are really diligent, you can also develop your own sourdough starter because that makes the most amazing bread that tastes like nothing you could ever buy. Sometimes you can find exciting bread from small or artisan bakeries but they can cost loads. I've seen a small loaf of organic sourdough bread for £4!

Anyway, the best way to make a tasty loaf of bread is to find some fresh yeast rather than the powdered stuff. This is what real bakers use and what often distinguished home-baked bread is the overpowering yeasty flavour (in London I've been able to find fresh yeast at health food stores and the Turkish market in my neighbourhood). After that, it's also nice to do a combination of different organic flours. I like to use 60% white, 20% whole wheat and 20% barley because it gives the bread loads of depth.

I'm really bad at writing recipes because I do things by taste, look and feel. Also with bread, it turns out different practically every time. You really have to taste the raw dough to check the salt content, which sounds gross. But don't take this recipe as gospel.

Anyway, it can be broken down into proportions.

Consider your combination of flours always as 100%
Your liquid, water or milk should be around 70%
Yeast 2%
Salt 2%

So as an example (this would make a decent size loaf)

Flours 200g
Water 140g (that's right, weigh the liquid)
Yeast 4g
Salt 4g

Mix everything up in a bowl and turn it out onto a work surface that has had oil spread lightly on it (works better than flour and keeps it really moist). Knead it very gently until everything is combined. Don't overwork it, if it doesn't feel right after two minutes, leave it to sit for 10 minutes and then come back to it. Good dough should be elastic, neither really sticky or dry and crumbly. And it's easier to dry bread out while you are kneeding it than to give it more liquid, so if it's really dry in the bowl, add some more water before you start kneeding.

Leave it covered to rise for about 1 1/2 hours. Knead it again and shape it to fit easily into a loaf pan or into a ball that can be baked on a tray. Let it rise for another 1 1/2 hours or until it's doubled in size. Preheat oven to 220/gas mark 7 and bake for at least 45 minutes. You can check to see if it's done by tapping on the bottom of the loaf, if it sounds hollow you are set.

V important. Unless you plan on eating the whole loaf there and then, which could be tempting, don't cut it until it's completely cool. Cutting into it will let all the steam escape and the bread can collapse and dry out really easily.

Extra important. If anyone really wants to set up a bread baking co-op in London, I'm totally game. I run a fruit and veg co-op in a community centre in the East End so if anyone is interesting in fighting the supermarket powers that be by supporting us, we need volunteers all the time. It could also be used as a place to sell bread or other foods produced on a small scale. Let's use Indymedia as a tool for working together rather than having silly arguments (and I'm taking full responsibility for my part in many of these). I hope I don't sound like too much of a baking nerd.