"Hundreds of activists of Gush Shalom, Taayush, The Committee Against House Demolition and others demonstrated on the last day of 2004 against the uprooting of the olive trees of Jayush village and the building of a large new settlement there. This is being done under the guise of enlarging an existing settlement (Tsufin). The demonstrators planted dozens of saplings in the holes left open after the uprooting of the big trees – which, by the way, are being sold to rich yuppie house-owners in Israel."

full report:  http://www.gush-shalom.org/english/index.html

Letter to NPR

From: Ali Abunimah
To: atc (at) npr.org
Subject: Kuwait's missing Palestinians

March 23, 1999
Dear NPR News,
I mostly enjoyed Eric Weiner's report from Kuwait, on All Things Considered today, about how the country is facing the prospect of life without boundless oil wealth.

Eric said, inaccurately, however, that after Iraq invaded Kuwait, "the foreign workers who made Kuwait tick, fled," thus forcing Kuwaitis to develop their own capacities and skills.

The part about the foreign workers fleeing is mostly untrue. I visited the refugee transit camps in Jordan in the days immediately following the Iraqi invasion in 1990. Most of the people in those camps were Southeast Asian guestworkers from both Iraq and Kuwait, and a few from Saudi Arabia.

But the largest group of foreign workers, about 400,000 Palestinians, did not flee, and were not in those transit camps. Many of these Palestinians had lived in Kuwait for decades, and generations of their children were born there. Approximately 100,000 of these Palestinians were outside Kuwait on their annual summer trips (mostly in Jordan) at the time of the Iraqi invasion. The remaining 300,000 stayed in Kuwait throughout the Iraqi occupation, as most had businesses and savings to protect, or simply had nowhere else that would take them. After the liberation of Kuwait, the Kuwaiti government prohibited Palestinians who were outside the country from returning, and then began systematically expelling the remaining 300,000, by revoking their work permits and forcing them to leave. About 300,000 Palestinians, those who had Jordanian passports ended up resettling in Jordan, which absorbed them despite a recession exacerbated by the sanctions on Iraq and the U.S. naval blockade of Aqaba. Israel, of course prohibited them from returning to the occupied West Bank or Gaza Strip, except for about 30,000 who had managed over the years to maintain the identity cards issued by the Israeli occupation authorities to Palestinians who were present in the West Bank at the time the occupation began in 1967. Others went to Canada and the United States. About 100,000 of the Kuwaiti Palestinians had no passports at all, and were thrown into impossible circumtances as stateless persons.

Many Palestinians did not have great sympathy for Kuwait, but it is not true that that translated into support for Iraq. Palestinians in Kuwait has as much to lose as the Kuwaitis. But the lack of sympathy stemmed largely from the near apartheid conditions which Palestinians had had to endure for decades in Kuwait. While Palestinians prospered economically in Kuwait, they were denied all political and civil rights, and were excluded from citizenship. They could only live in certain reserved neighborhoods, and male Palestinians, even those born in Kuwait, were required to leave the country permanently on their eighteenth birthdays, unless they could secure employment contracts from Kuwaiti sponsors. This policy divided families and caused much hardship.

The forcible mass expulsion was apparently a reprisal against the whole Palestinian population for the PLO's support for Iraq, and Yasir Arafat's infamous embrace of Saddam Hussein. Many in Kuwait had long resented the Palestinians, and used the accusation of support for Iraq as a pretext to finally get rid of them.

Thus, the Palestinian school teachers, doctors, nurses, administrators, financiers, accountants, engineers and university professors who helped to build Kuwait, were forcibly uprooted and expelled, many not for the first time in their lives. Most went to Jordan, which absorbed them despite the fact that its economy was suffering because of the sanctions on Iraq, and the U.S. Naval blockade of Aqaba.

The Palestinians, did not flee from Kuwait, as they did not flee from Palestine. It is unfortunate that Eric did not ask any of his Kuwaiti informants about what happened to the Palestinians and why they were expelled.

But we are fortunate to know so much about the history and experience of the Palestinians who were expelled from Kuwait because of the research of Louise Cainkar, Research Assistant Professor at the Great Cities Institute, University of Illinois Chicago. Cainkar conducted two years of field research with them as a Fulbright scholar in Jordan, and has just received an NEH grant to write a book on the subject.

Finally, I wish that Eric would take the short trip north from Kuwait, to the Iraqi city of Basra. NPR has never given adequate attention to the sanctions, and in recent weeks has virtually given up reporting on Iraq, save perhaps for Pentagon bulletins about aircraft returning safely to base.

Sincerely,

Ali Abunimah
ahabunim (at) midway.uchicago.edu

Unsuprisingly, you don't seem to have a problem with young Palestinian children being used as human shields by gunmen, or being sent to blow themselves up.

(It's not really unsurprising. Your views on Israel are quite transparent)

As for the rest of your article, you make numerous claims with no evidence to support them. "I heard someone say this"... "a friend heard someone out the window say that" etc.

What a coincidence. Just a second ago, someone rang me and said you are a raving idiot.

Can you say hearsay?

For example:

"On the Shabbat the (Jewish Sabbath), it is usual for settlers to parade the old city taunting the Palestinian community and vandalizing homes. "

Really? Prove it.
If as you say there are 500 'settlers' among 12000, I think you'll find doing that would be certain suicide. Suicide however is a Palestinian tactic, not a Jewish one.


As for: “This is the home of a European group that supports Arab terrorists!"

Were they referring to the ISM you mentioned earlier in your piece? If so, the accusation is quite fair. The ISM DOES well and truly support terrorists.

 http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=7361
 http://home.comcast.net/~jat.action/ISM_info.htm

Press release, January 13, 2005

Numerous commentators, in Israel and abroad, speak of "a window of opportunity" and a unique chance to restart the peace process. But for that to be true, quite a few steps are needed - in the first place, on the part of the occupier who has the overwhelming power on the ground:



* Complete cessation of the settlement construction and extension, going on throughout the West Bank, and dismantling of all the "unauthorized settlement outposts" which the government promised more than a year ago;


* Achieving an agreement on an immediate, bilateral ceasefire, including an end to all violent acts by the IDF on the one hand and all Palestinian organizations and armed groups on the other;


* Total cessation of the manhunt against the "wanted Palestinians", their assassinations and detentions and the nightly invasions of the Palestinian towns and villages;


* Removal of all the roadblocks which deny free movement to the Palestinians and strangle the Palestinian economy;


* Release of the Palestinian political leaders imprisoned in Israel, such as Marwan Barghouti and Husam Hader, members of the Palestinian Legislature;


* Widespread release of Palestinian prisoners, including those sentenced to long terms and those defined as "having blood on their hands" (most decision-makers on both sides, Israelis as well as Palestinians, are people bearing direct responsiblity to killings, including the killing of civilians).


* The return of Israeli forces to the positions held on September 2000, at the outbreak of the present Intifada, and restoration of the status of the "A" areas as sovereign Palestinian territory, to which Israeli armed forces have no access;


* A stop to the construction of "The Seperation Wall" and immediate dismantling of the wall sections which penetrate into the West Bank territory and deprive Palestinians of land and livelihood - in accordance with the verdict of the International Court at the Hague.


* Resuming the negotiations between the state of Israel and the Palestinian Authority/Palestininian Liberation Organization, on all issues including and especially the definite agreement between these two parties.


Negotiations should be conducted on the basis of the following principles:


- The withdrawal of the Israeli armed forces and settlers from the Gaza Strip and the northern West Bank must be conducted under a detailed agreement between the two sides, rather than as a unilateral Israeli act;


- Occupation in the Gaza Strip must be ended completely, with all parts of its territory evacuated including the area of the Egyptian border ("Philadelphi Route"), giving the inhabitants free access to the outside world by land, sea and air.


- Third parties, such as Egypt and/or an international force, can be involved in the Israeli evacuation of the Gaza Strip and stabilizing the situation during and after the evacuation, with the dispositions and authority of such forces defined in an Israeli-Palestinian agreement.


- Houses and public utilities in the evacuated Israeli settlements would not be demolished but handed over intact to the Palestinian side, with their value enumerated by an agreed international agency, to be reckoned in future negotiations;


- It should be explicitly agreed that Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and the norhern West Bank would not be a final step, but a prelude to a process aimed at a definite peace agreement between the State of Israel and the State of Palestine to be, resuming implementation of the "Road Map" defined by the international community;


- As stipulated in "The Road Map", the international facilitator and arbiter in Israeli-Palestinian negotiations should be the international "Quartet" in its entirty, rather than the United States alone - which is manifestly unable and unwilling to act impartially;


- The border between Israel and Palestine would be based on the borders of June 5, 1967, with the possiblity of mutual border rectifications being agreed upon;


- United Jerusalem shall be the capital of both states, West Jerusalem the capital of Israel and East Jerusalem the capital of Palestine;


- There shall be a fair and agreed solution to the problem of the Palestinian refugees.


Obviously Ariel Sharon, Prime Minster of Israel, is completely unwilling to accept even a small part of these principles, as it is not at all his aim to end Israeli occupation on most of the West Bank. In the short range, Sharon may pay lip service to "the new chance for peace" but in practice he does all in his power to cause the failure of the newly-elected Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas (Abu Mazen) - as he did in 2003, when Abbas was Prime Minister.


Knowing the above full well, Nobel Prize Laureate Shimon Peres led his Labor Party to enter the Sharon Cabinet, take up portfolios and assume full legal and moral responsibily for its acts. Yossi Beilin, architect of the Oslo and Geneva Accords, saved the Sharon Government from falling and made his Meretz/Yahad Party into one of the main pillars ensuring its continued existence. Also Knesset Members Dahamshe and A-Sana of the United Arab Party followed suit to a certain degree - by abstaining in the Knesset vote.

These parties and leaders, who got the confidence of hundreds of thousands of voters on the basis of opposing the occupation and declaring their adherence to peace, have assumed a grave responsibility. However sincere their motives might be, they risk going down in history as having helped to perpetuate the occupation and bloody conflict. The very least which can be expected of them, in this precarious situation, is not to confine themselves solely to ensuring implementation of the Gaza Disengagement but rather use in every possible way the leverage they now posses over Sharon, to push towards a total end of the occupation.

Gush shalom - the Israeli Peace Bloc /  http://www.gush-shalom.org/

A ha, you win - you're pulling me in to spending time addressing your provocative uninformed rubbish. Well done. That should help you post some more on Indymedia. I should be so lucky.

Your name, for a start, is not to help understanding or solving of problems, just to inflame and obscure.

Your comments on whether the original poster has problems with kids being used etc - whatever the truth of your allegations, and whether by different Palestinian factions, or by the Israeli army, is trying to draw the debate into other areas.

About how many Jewish settlers there are in Hebron, you can find that out yourself - the figures will be available somewhere on the internet from a source you trust. For me, I remember it being about 500 - it's not suicide as they have the equivalent to 3 Israelis soldiers per settler, and the usual army tactics against the occupied population.

About ISM supporting terrorists - you clearly have not read or have ignored what ISM states it is about, what ISM campaigns on the ground about, how careful individuals within ISM are not to support suicide bombers nor be seen as partisan (nor for some, politicians), and you wilfully choose to ignore the cooperation between foreign ISMers, and Palestinians and Israelis campaigning for a peaceful and secure future for all.

The links you provide are amazing - it's a long time since I read such collections of one-sided made-up nonsense. And yes, you win again, with me spending my time analysing your barking mad linked pages and the groups behind them.

You must not want peace or security for all. How sad.

I just had to take up your challenge 'Prove it' about the Hebron settlers

Here are some 'pleasant' pictures supplied by the Christian Peacemaker Team

 http://www.cpt.org/gallery/slideshow.php?set_albumName=album03

And in general the CPT have good information about the situation in Hebron
 http://www.cpt.org/hebron/hebron.php

The Christian Peacemaker Team are really amazing people, actually, and they take their non-violence very seriously.

Here is information on the parades
 http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9803/12/hebron.clashes/


Well so-called nazi-hunter, I've enjoyed showing everything you said to be wrong. You'd have better luck if you did some proper research into the subject, rather than getting us to do it all for you.
Seriously, I enjoy debating with people when they don't simply lie and when they know at least the basic facts of the situation. There is, obviously, a lot to talk about. There is a lot I would like to understand about zionism and the motivation behind it, and only by understanding each other can we reach agreement.
Therefore, come back after doing a bit more homework, will you?

I think the next thing to say is that this 'murderous suspect' has not actually been charged with anything, and is simply being held in administrative detention. So nothing is proven.

Second, the article states he just turned up at the ISM offices, wet and cold. The ISM were unaware of his identity. I mean, members of Islamic Jihad don't just walk around in uniform do they!!!

But finally, what the hell were the IDF doing in Jenin anyway. It's a Palestinian town. You may say it's to combat terrorism, but I say their actions there only increase the resentment and anger against them that creates the resistance. Perhaps this 'murderous suspect' only became a fighter after the murderous IDF incursion into the Jenin refugee camp. Perhaps the IDF murdered his brother, his father, or his young cousins.

They have no right to be there! International law has consistently called for Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories, and Israel consistently ignores it. Get the hell out.

Oh come one Hermes, some graffiti supposedly by a Hebron local and that's supposed to prove something? Let's assume it was sprayed there by a local. So what?

After years of having to worry about their baby daughters being deliberately shot at point-blank range, if there is some graffiti I am surprised that's as upset as they are entitled to get according to you.

Go and have a look at DAILY Palestinian TV broadcasts which are INFINITELY more insidious than a bit of graffiti and completely hate-filled. What sort of future can Palestinian kids look forward to when they are being encouraged to kill themselves?

This will give you a good start -  http://www.pmw.org.il

The sheer lunatic denial of the Arab world is manifested in leaders who accept no blame for any problems of their own making. The same logic that believes Israel and America is actually responsible for the Tsunami (I'm not inventing this -  http://www.pmw.org.il/Latest%20bulletins%20new.htm#Tsunami ) is the same reason Arabs refuse to accept for a second thay may have some complicity in their own shitty standards of living.

The Arab world has the lowest literacy of the entire world, the lowest employment of the entire world and the combined GDP of the whole Arab League is less than that of Spain alone (UN Arab Human Development Report 2002 -  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2082872.stm amongst others)

And yet, they blame Israel and the US for everything (now including the Tsunami). Whilst Arab despots buy new helicopters and build bigger palaces (or in Arafat's case funnel billions of EU money to their wife in France) the average Arab struggles. But through the state-controlled media, they tell the people this is all Israel's fault.

And you people who should know better swallow it right up.

Now I expect you'll tell me again that I'm taking this off topic and trying to distract you, but the reality is if you ignore the above, how do you genuinely expect a solution? Israel ceasing to exist simply isn't one, as much as the Arabs have wished for it since 1948.

The Palestinians have potentially the highest standard of living of any Arab nation thanks to EU, US and even Israeli monies. And yet, they couldn't bear the thought of having to live alongside Israel, so they choose terror. As such, Israel defends itself (and yes, has every right to) so they suffer more.

Say what you want about the seperation wall, it has resulted in a massive reduction in terrorism without violence. Bottom line: The Palestinians wouldn't stop terror, a wall would.

As for all the steps in the 'press release' that Israel is expected to take, at what point are the Palestinians responsible for anything, like say something easy- stopping incitement on TV or actually halting terrorist attacks?

Mahmoud Abbas will no doubt start 'urging' Israel to do more and more. How about he starts by meeting their end of a single agreement ALREADY SIGNED?

As Golda Meir so rightly said: There will be peace when the Arabs love their own children more than they hate the Jews.

Finally, with respect to the ISM - International Solidarity Movement. Please explain to me how preventing the destruction of arms smuggling tunnels used by terrorists, which is what ISM member Rachel Corrie (even though the ISM now claim it was a doctor's home as opposed to the tunnels beneath it) was doing shortly prior to her demise is not supporting terror.

Members of the ISM have publicly endorsed the murder of Israeli civilians as a "legitimate" form of "Palestinian" resistance.
On March 27, 2003, ISM was caught harboring Islamic Jihad terrorist Shadi Sukiya. He was arrested by the IDF in ISM's office, where a handgun was also found, after two foreign ISM activists, including American Susan Barclay, helped Sukiya hide. Ms. Barclay tried to bar IDF soldiers from entering ISM offices, knowing that Sukia was there (Leslie Susser, "Israel: The IDF vs. the ISM," The Jerusalem Report, June 13, 2003); "Senior Islamic Jihad terrorist arrested while hiding in the offices of the International Solidarity Movement in Jenin," Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, March 27, 2003).

This came from  http://www.tzemachdovid.org/Facts/MandF/ism.shtml and there are no shortage of documents exposing the ISM for what it very clearly is.

So tell me Jonathan2 "how careful individuals within ISM are not to support suicide bombers". Not very careful at all it seems...

At least Hamas have always been open and honest about their ambitions to destroy Israel.

Can I recommend everyone go away and spend twenty minutes looking around the following two sites:
 http://www.memritv.org/ - Direct translations of Middle Eastern TV
 http://www.pmw.org.il/ - Palestinian Media Watch - more of the same.

Look at the blatant anti-Semitism, the calls to violence of children, the spew and the raw hatred.

Then tell me about the 'first steps' in peace. Israel has always been ready, their opponents have not. The Palestinians could have a real future, but it's up to them to chose a future alongside Israel instead of destroying Israel and themselves in the process.




Explain how

Hermes you don't seem to have a very good memory. Back in the year 2,000 the Israeli government offered the Palestinians their own state, what they had always wanted. But guess what this offer was flatley rejected by the Palestinian leadership. Why on earth did the Palestinian leadership reject this offer which could have brought lasting peace? You tell if you can, wihthout making lame excuses such as the peace offer came with strings attached. If the Palestinian leadership really wanted peace then it was there for the taking in the year 2000!

I've just had a look at UK Indymedia's section on repression " http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/topics/repression/".

If you'd just arrived on Earth you'd think the only peopl on earth who were repressed were Palestinians thanks to Israel.

Why is there no mention of other Arab countries with infinitely worse human-rights abuses than Israel? Why is there no mention of the repression of any Palestinian peace movement by the Militant Islamic gangs who crush dissent? No mention of Iran, the Taliban, womens' rights, freedom of expression, democratic rights in the Middle East alone. That's before you look at repression in China, North Korea or elsewhere.

Could it be that UK Indymedia has a slight bias?

No wonder your prince had no problem wearing a Nazi uniform, look at the environment he's grown up in. Europe and England will end up in a lot of trouble for ignoring what's only happened to the Jews so far. I pity you, I really do.

This looks like a bog standard Israel / palestine posting with lashings of total bullshit.
There only two clear facts No 1 is that palestinians are living under a brutal occupation.
The rest is a mixture of bible mumbo jumbo and mis/dis information.
Even the expression "anti-Semitic" is clearly misleading surely it would be better to stick to anti Jewish
the term nazi is freely bandied about and although Israel were until recently the darlings of the left they
are now hooked up with right . I use the old left right piss take for those who believe that there is actually any
difference .
Fact number No 2) is that Israel is a rogue nuke state run by a fascist regime, I wonder how long it will be
before they point their top of the range nukes at european capital cities, and we are not talking about some
old Scud they will have nothing but the best .
Any Nazihunters looking for good results should check out town tel Aviv, I hear there is also a thriving film industry
there for SNUFF VIDEO's also in ROME ::

First of all, regarding Rachel Corrie.
 http://www.ccmep.org/2004_articles/palestine/031504_price_of_nonviolent_resistance.htm

"Perhaps Shattan is unaware that neither the military nor the press ever found tunnels under Samir's home. Rachel's parents went to visit Samir, accompanied by reporters in September 2003, and also did not find tunnels.

The very fact that Samir's home was not bulldozed for nine months following Rachel's death is testament to the frivolity of the charge. But this is not surprising, since the Israeli media (without a single journalist in the Gaza Strip) repeatedly reports exactly what the Israeli army says without question."

But again, you just repeat the lie that she was defending smuggling tunnels, because that's what you've been told.

Now, twice in this thread, I have shown you that you have been lied to, one regarding the the 'suspect with a gun' in the ISM office, another time regarding the 'smuggling tunnels' Rachel Corrie was supposedly defending.
Always, the IDF do this. They release an initial statement, which is a lie, but broadcast all over the media. Then the facts that contradict the statement gently filter out for those who have ears to listen.


Regarding Hebron, if you even bother to do even the slightest bit of research, you'll find this graffiti is not a small isolated incident. The settlers also go from Palestinian house to house painting the Star of David on their doors. Their actions aren't limited to that. One time, famously, Baruch Goldstein walked into a mosque while prayers were happening and murdered 29 Palestinians. He is considered a hero to these settlers. They throw their garbage and excrement onto the Palestinians walking on the streets below. They throw stones at them, and intimidate them. If you even bothered to check, I recommend the site of the Christian Peacemaker Team, you would see the extent of what they do.

But funny how you have such dual standards
"After years of having to worry about their baby daughters being deliberately shot at point-blank range, if there is some graffiti I am surprised that's as upset as they are entitled to get according to you."
Well, the latest casualty reports from  http://www.btselem.org/
for the year 2004

Palestinian fatalities
Did not participate in hostilities when killed
450
Killed when participating in hostilities
334
Unknown if participated in hostilities
19
Total: 803, including 174 minors


Israeli fatalities
Civilians
67
Security forces
40
Total: 107, including 8 minors


How many children have been murdered by the Israeli Occupation Forces!!! 174!!! It's ridiculous. If you were under such a cruel occupation, you would resist, and you wouldn't be terribly keen on the people oppressing you.
The Muslim Clerics are not right to simply sow hatred based upon ethnicity, but, look at it from their perspective. The Jews have come to their land, expelled them, destroyed their villages, occupied their lands again, put them under harsh and humiliating occupation, and are continuing to steal land and resources from them.
They seek a religious justification for what is happening, and they find it in the Koran, which entreats them to fight back against those that persecute them.

Here is a quote directly from Ben-Gurion. I assume you don't have any problems with the source I have used here, this is direct from the horses mouth
"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs, We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" - David Ben-Gurion


Regarding the 'generous offer' of Barak
What Arafat was offered
"Barak appears to be asking for only 10% of the occupied territories. In reality, it's closer to 30%, taking into account the territories he wants to annex in the Jerusalem area and place under his "security control" in the Jordan Valley. But even worse, in the map submitted to the Palestinians, these percentage points cut the country up from East to West and from North to South, so that the Palestinian state will consist of groups of islands, each surrounded by Israeli settlers and soldiers.

"World opinion is always on the side of the underdog. In this fight, we are Goliath and they are David. In the eyes of the world [outside the US], the Palestinians are fighting a war of liberation against a foreign occupation. We are in their territory, not they on ours. We are the occupiers, they are the victims. This is the objective situation, and no minister of propaganda can change that." Israeli peace activist. Uri Avnery

"(Barak) promised peace and brought war, and not by accident. While speaking about peace, he enlarged the settlements. Cut the Palestinian territories into pieces by 'by-pass' roads. Confiscated lands. Demolished homes. Uprooted trees. Paralyzed the Palestinian economy..Conducted negotiations in which he tried to dictate to the Palestinians a peace that amounts to capitulation. Was not satisfied with the fact that by accepting the Green Line, the Palestinians had already given up 78% of their historic homeland. Demanded the annexation of 'settlement blocs" and pretended that they amount only to 3% of the territory, while in fact he meant more than 20% would remain under Israeli control. Wanted to coerce the Palestinians to accept a 'state' cut off from all its neighbors and composed of several enclaves isolated from each other, each surrounded by Israeli settlers and soldiers...Boasts publicly that he has not given back to the Palestinians one inch of territory...When the intifada broke out, sent snipers to shoot, in cold blood from a distance, hundreds of unarmed demonstrators, adults and children. Blockaded each village and town separately, bringing them to the verge of starvation, in order to get them to surrender. Bombarded neighborhoods. Started a policy of mafia-style 'liquidations', causing an inevitable escalation of the violence." Israeli peace activist, Uri Avnery


OK, deep breath, regarding the corrupt Arab regimes...I AGREE WITH YOU. They are corrupt, and fully in bed with the US. Who is it that keeps the corrupt and inept House of Saud propped up with dollars and weapons? It is the US. Incidentally, who funded and supported Saddam Hussein against Iran, during a period when he was committing his WORST atrocities? It was the US!!! Hand in hand with this rage against the injustice perpetrated against the Arab world by the US and Israel comes a rage against the corrupt Arab regimes that lead them, and are complicit in these actions.

I'm telling you, make peace, aim for a one state solution, because although you may be able to get some corrupt US backed Arab leaders accepting the injustice done to the Palestinians, the people in the street will not. For 100 years, the Crusader States were tolerated in the Holy Land, while the Arab world squabbled amongst itself. Then one day, they were united, the Crusaders were isolated, and then vanquished. If you don't aim for the only solution that allows BOTH PEOPLES to live in that land, together, in peace, you will find yourself perpetually surrounded by enemies. Israel is only small. It only has to lose one war, and it is gone. I can't see how it provides security to the Jewish people in that ever more increasingly violent region.


Regarding expecting the Israelis to do more and more...give me an example of when Israel ever kept up it's end of the bargain as much as the Palestinians. During Oslo, the PA built all the requirements needed, the security forces and prisons...Israel continued to build more and more settlements!!! During the latest 'roadmap', there is a list of conditions. The PA pursued them as much as it could, bringing in a new prime minister, pursuing some reforms. Israel did nothing. It demolished one or two lonely caravans erected by settlers, but essentially allowed settlers to do what they want, and maintained a cruel occupation.

Golda Meir also famously said 'There are no Palestinians', so I don't hold her opinion in very high esteem.

"Members of the ISM have publicly endorsed the murder of Israeli civilians as a "legitimate" form of "Palestinian" resistance."
I'd like to see a quote, please, rather than just 'hearsay' as you accused me of earlier. I am sure you have taken it out of context, as you have most other things in this thread.

Your final comment 'Israel has always been ready for peace'. NO, it's simply not true. It has always been willing to try and find a solution that somehow justifies the stealing of a people's land, and legitimises a criminal act. It has always sought to give itself the most it possibly can, and the Palestinians the least. If it had wanted a just peace, it would NOT have built settlements during Oslo to compromise the final status negotiations. But Israel wants to maintain the sort of peace where Israel is master, and the Palestinian is slave. Not the sort of peace where two equals come together and try to come up with a just compromise.
It's as though you came to my house, kicked me out so I had to live in the shed, and then said, 'OK, lets reach and agreement. I live in the house, and you live in 90 percent of the shed...but I want 10 percent for my stuff'. Then, when I protest, you complain that I don't want peace!!!

This is the two sided nature of the word 'peace'. True peace does not mean docily accepting whatever is done to me. If I let someone treat me with utter contempt, take my lands, and then accept the scraps of what he offers me from what he stole...that is weakness, and accepting a position of slavery. It is not peace. If I fight for my rights, but fight to a limit, and am prepared to accept the just solution, that way leads to peace.

I ask you one more time to look at the casualty statistics. Is that just? The Jewish concept of justice says 'an eye for an eye'. If these actions are simply retaliation, which I say they are not, then the casualties should be equal no. But for every Israeli killed, they kill 8. A tooth for 8 teeth. Those are not the actions of peace. In fact, the actions of the IDF are not simple retaliation. They are part of a policy of conquest and subjection of another people.

OK, I've said a great deal of things. I get tired of arguing with you guys, but I say it in the hope that it will plant seeds, that one day you will see the illogical, and self-destructive ideology behind what Israel is doing, and seek a just reconciliation with the Palestinians.

OK, and to finish, I'm just going to cut and paste something I said on another thread, I'm tired of typing the same thing over and over again...


"Finally, about your point 'singling out Israel'. You'll find a lot of the people fighting on this issue have been active fighting against apartheid in South Africa, have been involved in East Timor Action, I know at least one involved with Free Tibet. Personally, I am actually focusing a great deal on what is happening in Latin America, to the extent I've moved out here. But you cannot deny that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has taken a central role in the world, ever since September 11th.

I want this conflict resolved, personally, because I don't want to be dragged into this hypocritical, greedy, badly thought out 'War on Terror'. We don't support Chinese, Sudanese, Iranian atrocities with our money and weapons, like we do with Israel. We don't find Tibetans flying planes into our buildings because of the unfair, uneven way we have been supporting one side over another. We are not involved with those conflicts in the same way. For example, many people working on Israel-Palestine have also been heavily involved with stopping Indonesian atrocities, by trying to stop the West selling them weapons.

As activists, we're not involved simply because we like sticking our noses into other peoples business. We're involved because, well, our governments have been complicit with what Israel is doing, and ever since September 11th, well now we're all involved whether we like it or not. I'm not going to sit back and watch the US, Britain and Israel pursuing policies that are actually putting OUR OWN LIVES at risk!!! "

Twin Torrifagiani wins awards for unintelligent debate by summarily writing off my clear arguments as "mumbo jumbo" and then presenting absolutely baseless propaganda as "the only two clear facts". Let's have a look at these then.

"Fact" 1: "palestinians are living under a brutal occupation".
On occupation - The Palestinians wouldn't need to if their own leadership accepted the fact ISrael has a right to live without being attacked. As the PA proved it had no interest in stopping terror, Israel had to do it themselves. This is of course now being achieved with great success by a security fence. If the Palestinians are pissed off about the barrier, tough. They should have thought of it before. Terror built the fence, peace can bring it down.

Your use of the word "brutal" in the same breath as "fact" suggests you are getting your facts straight from Palestinian protest placards instead of an objective look at the situation.

"Fact" 2: "Israel is a rogue nuke state run by a fascist regime"

Again, did you get this from your favourite protest slogans? Fact? I think not.
Sure Israel's democratic process has problems, as does the UK's, America's, Canada's, Australia's Europe's etc. Churchill said "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."

But "fascist regime"? Excuse me, but first of all, comparing Israel's Government (which even includes Arabs and women) to Arab dictatorships while trying to keep a straight face is laughable. Your argument has no basis in reality and yet you seriously try to pass it off as "Fact". But go on, I'm interested to hear you try and justify your accusation. Just because you don't happen to agree with Israel's policy (of self-preservation instead of suicide) doesn't make them "fascist". Indeed it probably makes you one.

As for "rogue" state, what? Did you get that "fact" from a hand-painted slogan as well?
Oh, let me guess, it's because Israel ignores NON-BINDING resolutions from a wholly useless UN?

General Assembly resolutions have political (perhaps even moral, to some) authority... but they are all non-binding. Most of those aimed at Israel are also patently ridiculous. For example:
-General Assembly Resolution 250 "calls on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem."
-General Assembly Resolution 251 "deeply deplores Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250."
-General Assembly Resolution 252 "declares invalid Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as her capital"
-General Assembly Resolution 271 "condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem"
-General Assembly Resolution 476 "reiterates' that Israel's claims to Jerusalem are null and void"
-General Assembly Resolution 673 "deplores Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations"

When one considers that the majority of U.N. member states are Arab nations (22) or Islamic nations (52) or dictatorial, anti-democratic nations or nations in desperate need of Arab oil or nations desperate for business investment opportunities within Arab countries or countries fearful of discontent among their growing Arab/Muslim populations (namely ALL of Europe!), it's no wonder why so many anti-Israel General Assembly resolutions get introduced AND passed! In fact, of over 700 General Assembly resolutions passed since the UN's 1945 establishment, nearly 450 condemn Israel. None have been passed against any Arab country nor any Arab terrorist organizations! In other words, out of 190 nations in the United Nations, over sixty percent of all General Assembly resolutions condemned just ONE member, Israel!

Abba Ebban summed it up when he said: "If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions."

And you wonder why Israel might not be too impressed by the UN whose corrupt Arab members are trying to achieve diplomatically what they failed militarily.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world is now seeing how USELESS the UN is courtesy of their failure to do anything worthwhile in the Tsunami areas.

 http://diplomadic.blogspot.com/2005/01/unbearable.html
 http://diplomadic.blogspot.com/2005/01/tsunami-relief-some-more-good-guys.

While Great Satan America, Australia, even Little-Satan Israel slog their guts out helping Muslims, the Arabs do fuck all and the UN issues press releases and wastes money. Good one!

But go on, given its contribution to the world's sciences, arts, and humanitarian work right now and in the past, do tell us why Israel's a "Rogue state". You know, as it's a "fact".


Hermes,

You write off Golda Meir as she once said there's no such thing as Palestinians. Curiously, many Arabs have said the same thing. I trust you realise that Jordan, Egypt etc. don't actually give a shit about their 'brothers' the Palestinians but only use them as a cruel pawn against Israel.

Israel did not go to war against a Palestinian state and occupy its land. Rather, Israel was attacked by six Arab countries at once. Israel defended itself, defeated the attackers, and won the so-called territories, not from the Palestinians, but from Jordan and Egypt. And it's been sour grapes ever since... The Palestinians are now stuck in the middle.

You have thrown up a body count as evidence of inequity in Palestinan deaths and ISraeli deaths. I can throw up numbers which dispute what you are saying however we'll just get into a pissing match about who's right. Instead, ask yourself two questions:

1) When Israeli babies are deliberately killed, do Palestinians celebrate?
2) When Palestinian babies are accidentally killed, do Israelis celebrate?

Intent matters. The difference is important and should clarify the morals on both sides of the aggression. Moreover, you can talk about Baruch Goldstein if you want. Like most Israelis, I do not support what he did. It is of course an incredibly isolated incident and you indicated this when you mentioned "one time". Compare that however to repeated and daily Palestinian equivalent actions and the massive support they enjoy.

You have also suggested a one-state solution is the answer.

Sorry, one-state is code for the destruction of Israel and simply not good enough.
The Palestinians have a simple choice: Live in peace alongside Israel or continue to try and destroy her. They are yet to choose peace.

You disagreed with me but the reality is that every country who has been SERIOUS about peace with Israel got it. The PA are yet to indicate they are serious.

I'm glad we agree that Arab leaders are fucked. I just wish there was more talk her of how to solve the problems in the Arab world rather than constant finger pointing at Israel. I have no doubt that if Israel simply stopped existing tomorrow, that would NOT actually fix a single thing in the Arab world for which Israel is made the constant scapegoat.

If Israel had never existed, would the Arabs live on more than $2 a day? I doubt it. Would Arab women have basic rights? No way. Etc. etc. Israel is a red-herring. There are worse human-rights abuses daily than in Israel, there are other occupations (e.g. Syria's occupation of Lebanon) that most people don't even know about. All of this happens because of a pathological hatred of Israel that blinds people from reality. That reality is unfortunate as what happens to Israel now will happen to the West 20 years later (e.g. Militant Islamic terrorism).

“The Jewish concept of justice says 'an eye for an eye'”

That is Jewish law, but Israel is not governed on Jewish or religious laws but secular ones.

I saw the graffiti that was posted. Although disgusting and completely deplorable, I doubt that it was carried out by Hebron settlers. It looks like the work of the Jewish Defense League, which to my knowledge does not have members in Hebron. In all likelihood, it was the work of outsiders.

The situation is not so simple. It is not a case of “Israel stole Palestinian land” or someone coming into my house and occupying it. No. Using that logic the claims of the Jewish settlers in Hebron may be argued as for two thousand years there was a continued Jewish presence in the city. Indeed, it is the second most holy site in Judaism. During the 1948 War the Jews of Hebron were massacred. Following Israel’s victory in 1967 and acquisition of the West Bank the descendants of those massacred returned to Hebron (and other ancient settlements massacred in 1948 such as Gush Etzion). You see it is their land too. The only time when Jews did not live in Hebron was under Jordanian occupation, when Jews were not even permitted to visit the city. Could you imagine the uproar among Muslims if they were restricted from visiting Medina, the second most holy site in Islam?

Listen, I am no advocate of settlers and settlements. In fact, I oppose them. But it is not clear cut like, “its my house” or rather “its our land”. In a peace settlement, painful concessions have to be made. And painful mean just that painful, sometimes really painful.

What Arafat and Avnery said about Camp David is incorrect. The Jordan valley was not to be annexed by Israel. The deal put forward was that the Jordan Valley would be under Israeli sovereignty for up to ten years and then handed to the Palestinians to be part of their state. And the maps referred to at Camp David are a red herring to what was really offered. During the process offers were made through role playing games and exercises so that if negotiations failed, both sides would not be bound by previous offers made, when, or if, negotiations would restart. Through these means, Israel proposed between 90 and 93 per cent of the West Bank. No counter offer was made. But the incompetence of Arafat was grave. Not because he said no to Barak’s offers, negotiations can always be resumed, especially in peace time, but because Arafat’s promised to declare a Palestinian state on the 13th September 2000 anticipating a settlement. The hopes of the Palestinian people were lifted and then abruptly dashed.

As for the ISM? Don’t get me started.

The occupation IS brutal. I have been there and seen for myself, the house demolitions, the uprooting of Palestinian farmland, the checkpoints that don't allow free movement from one Palestinian town to the next, the arbitrary beatings at the checkpoints ( yes, it happens ), the illegal settlements and the paramilitiary settlers trying to intimidate and beat the Palestinians off their own farmland, and then not to mention the hundreds of civilians killed. You seem to have an unrealistic rosy coloured view of the occupation. I suggest you actually visit ( and not as a soldier ), the West Bank. Visit the farmers in Jayous who have had their farmland stolen from them, and who have suffered from beatings by soldiers and settlers. I suggest you go to Hebron, and see for yourself what the settlers there do.
Zion 1, I don't know why you suggest it's the work of outsiders. It doesn't take a lot of fact checking to know how great the hatred is between the Hebron Settlers and the Hebron Palestinians. I'm not going to say any more, I've provided the link to the Christian Peacemaker Team, and if you're going to call these people liars...well so be it. Suffice to say, they have been in Hebron for years, working to try and bring about peace and reconciliation between the two groups. They're some of the bravest and most honorable people I know involved in this whole situation.

Funny, your comment about the UN General Assembly.
You're saying that 'When one considers that the majority of U.N. member states are Arab nations (22) or Islamic nations (52) or dictatorial, anti-democratic nations or nations in desperate need of Arab oil or nations desperate for business investment opportunities within Arab countries or countries fearful of discontent among their growing Arab/Muslim populations (namely ALL of Europe!), it's no wonder why so many anti-Israel General Assembly resolutions get introduced AND passed'

Tell me, exactly how many countries actually vote AGAINST these resolutions.
Usually, only 7. Australia, Federated States of Micronesia, Grenada, Israel, Marshall Islands, Palau and the United States.

Are you saying that these 7 countries, in all the world, are the only good, impartial, fair states?
OK, what about, for example, all the Latin American countries. I am here in Venezuela. It is certainly not dependent on Arab Oil, it has plenty of its own. Columbia!!! If anything, I'd have thought Columbia would vote with the US. I'm surprised, in fact, it does not. You are basically saying that every single country in the world is wrong, apart from the US, Australia and Israel, and those countries that are easily pressured by the US to vote the way they want.
Don't you think that's a rather arrogant, even racist view. I certainly don't find it a very democratic view. You have written off the opinion of all of Europe, Russia, Asia, Africa, Latin America...Canada. Are you saying all these countries are evil dictatorships? Are you saying they're all under the control of the evil Arabs?

"Israel did not go to war against a Palestinian state and occupy its land"
Yes it did!!! Or are you calling David Ben-Gurion a liar
"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs, We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?"

"Before [the Palestinians] very eyes we are possessing the land and the villages where they, and their ancestors, have lived...We are the generation of colonizers, and without the steel helmet and the gun barrel we cannot plant a tree and build a home." Israeli leader Moshe Dayan

"My friend, take care. When you recognize the concept of 'Palestine', you demolish your right to live in Ein Hahoresh. If this is Palestine and not the Land of Israel, then you are conquerors and not tillers of the land. You are invaders. If this is Palestine, then it belongs to a people who have lived here before you came. Only if it is the Land of Israel do you have a right to live in Ein Hahoresh and in Deganiyah B. If it is not your country, your fatherland, the country of your ancestors and of your sons, then what are you doing here? You came to another people's homeland, as they claim, you expelled them and you have taken their land." Menahem Begin


You know, again it is like I've said. You view Israel, and the history, through rose-tinted spectacles. The early zionist leaders had no illusions about what they were doing.

"Following the outbreak of 1936, no mainstream (Zionist) leader was able to conceive of future coexistence without a clear physical separation between the two peoples - achievable only by transfer and expulsion. Publicly they all continued to speak of coexistence and to attribute the violence to a small minority of zealots and agitators. But this was merely a public pose..Ben Gurion summed up: 'With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area (for settlement)...I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it,'" Israel historian, Benny Morris, "Righteous Victims."

"Ben-Gurion clearly wanted as few Arabs as possible to remain in the Jewish state. He hoped to see them flee. He said as much to his colleagues and aides in meetings in August, September and October [1948]. But no [general] expulsion policy was ever enunciated and Ben-Gurion always refrained from issuing clear or written expulsion orders; he preferred that his generals 'understand' what he wanted done. He wished to avoid going down in history as the 'great expeller' and he did not want the Israeli government to be implicated in a morally questionable policy...But while there was no 'expulsion policy', the July and October [1948] offensives were characterized by far more expulsions and, indeed, brutality towards Arab civilians than the first half of the war." Benny Morris

Before the Arab armies invaded, there were ethnic cleansings of villages, attacks by the Irgun and Stern Gang. There was murder and rape. Have you heard of Deir Yassin?
This peaceful village was attacked by the Irgun and Stern Gang and slaughtered!!!
Benny Morris is in fact a supporter of Israel. He looks at history, sees it through the eyes of David Ben-Gurion and Moshe Dayan, and says 'Yes we stole their land. Yes we conducted ethnic cleansing. Yes there was murder and rape. But it was neccessary to establish the State of Israel'.

It is only in later generations, like your generation, where you have coloured history the way you would like it to be. You would like that the Israelis didn't come as colonisers, that somehow they were provoked into taking the land from the Palestinians, but that is not true. That is not the way Ben-Gurion saw it. He acknowledges what happened, but his justification was the anti-semitism in Europe, the perceived 'need' for a Jewish state, and it was just the misfortune of the Palestinians that they happened to live where this state was to be established.

You are twisting history because it goes against what you would like, that the zionists came as colonisers. You would like it to be that somehow, the zionists were the victims of the Palestinians from the start. But this is simply not true. Israel is built by the victims of European persecution, and the Palestinians are the victims of Israels persecution.

Ben-Gurion, Moshe Dayan, Benny Morris...they may be bastards, but at least they're honest bastards. They make no pretension that what is happening is because the Israelis are the victims of the Palestinians. They know what they're doing is unfair to the Palestinians, but they reason 'tough shit', because they believe the need for the Jewish State is greater than those considerations.

OK, next, your two questions
1) When Israeli babies are deliberately killed, do Palestinians celebrate?
2) When Palestinian babies are accidentally killed, do Israelis celebrate?

How stupid? The answer to both is 'some do'. You know there are crazy religious settlers like there are crazy religious Palestinians. And what do you deem as 'accidental'. For example, the IDF has missiled apartment blocks where a suspect was, KNOWING that there were families with children inside. There is a famous TV picture of a Palestinian holding up the dead body of the baby found inside. Now tell me, was that an accident?!?! The IDF knew. Of course the baby isn't the target, but they know it will die as a result of what they do. They consider it a 'worthwhile sacrifice'. Well, don't you think the Palestinians operate by the same logic. Ideally, they would like to kill dozens of soldiers with each suicide bombing. They would like their rockets to land on groups of heavily armed settlers. And if they hit a child or a baby...well, it's a 'worthwhile sacrifice'.
Of course, I believe the logic of both sides to be insane. And identical. But again, you view Israeli intentions through this 'rose tint', and demonise the intentions of the Palestinians. When the Israelis kill a child ( and they have killed many, many more ), it is 'accidental'. When the Palestinians kill a child, it is 'deliberate'. You are distinguishing between two actions that are the same, based only on the race of the perpetrator. The dark, barbaric Palestinians. The clean, noble Israelis. Racism, and you are unconscious of it.

One state is the only solution. Countries pursue the current agenda of two states because they are sick of the conflict, and know Israel will never voluntarily accept the one-state solution. But I am telling you, one state already exists. Israel and the West Bank are so intertwined, I can see no way of untangling them to reach two seperate, viable states. I can drive down the Israeli highway, turn right onto a settler road, and wow, suddenly I'm in Palestine.
It does mean the destruction of Israel as a state with a Jewish majority. But it doesn't mean the destruction of the Israelis. In fact, the opposite, it offers them far more security than the current situation.
The way the situation is now, because of the settlement activity, it is inevitable that the West Bank and Israel will become one. And it is simply a matter of whether, through a campaign of demanding equal rights as citizens of one country, the Palestinians and Israelis come together as one, or whether Israel will adopt the policy of ethnic cleansing again. You know there are many in Israel calling for 'transfer'.
So Israel can choose the solution to this conflict, coming together with the Palestinians, or they can repeat history, do what they did in 1948, and face another 50 years of conflict.

Your comment 'If Israel had never existed, would the Arabs live on more than $2 a day? I doubt it. Would Arab women have basic rights? No way'
What an unbelievably racist and stupid comment!!!! My God...what about Kuwaitis and most of the Gulf States? They live on more than 2 dollars a day. That has certainly got nothing to do with Israel, unless you're claiming Israel discovered oil in the region. Are you saying that before the Gulf War, Iraq's immense wealth ( it was almost as developed as Italy ) came from Israel? You'll find Arab women in Syria and Lebanon enjoy 'basic rights'. They are secular countries. Did that come from Israel?
Actually, the 'religious fundamentalism' characteristic of the region is a fairly modern phenomenom. The PLO was and is a secular organisation, with a feminist undercurrent working inside it. Remember Leila Khalid?
I would love to see your explanation of exactly how the existence of Israel allowed the arab countries to live on more than 2 dollars a day, and provided basic rights to women. I will print it out, frame it, and put it on my wall.

Actually, I prefer Zion 1's comment on this thread. I take your point about the Hebron Jews being expelled during 1948. But then, why do only they have a 'right to return' to Hebron, and the expelled Palestinians have no right to return to their villages and settlements in Israel?!?

'Could you imagine the uproar among Muslims if they were restricted from visiting Medina, the second most holy site in Islam?'...can you imagine the uproar among Muslims regarding what is happening in Jerusalem, the third most holy site in Islam. When Ariel Sharon marches through the Al-Aqsa mosque with hundreds of soldiers, can you imagine how provocative that it?

But I believe the Jews have a right to live in the West Bank, and the Arabs have a right to live in Israel, because I believe in one-state, where both peoples live together in peace.

'Listen, I am no advocate of settlers and settlements. In fact, I oppose them. But it is not clear cut like, “its my house” or rather “its our land”. In a peace settlement, painful concessions have to be made. And painful mean just that painful, sometimes really painful.'
Why do only the Palestinians have to make these 'painful concessions'? It is not a concession if the Israelis say, 'we will only take an extra 10 percent of the 90 percent we took away from you'. If that was offered to me at a peace conference, I would walk out too.
It is like, you beat me up, and steal my sweets. Then I fight back. Then, you say, 'OK, we can stop fighting if you hand over only 10 percent more of your sweets'.

The Israelis took that land. It is fact. Ben-Gurion himself admits it!!! And you ask that the Palestinians concede more and more as the conflict goes on and on, when anyone with the faintest concept of justice can see it is the Israelis who should be making concessions for peace. And that concession means living together with the indigenous people of that land, together.

Phew, well, that's it, I've responded to just about everything. Remind me if I missed anything out.

Hermes,

In relation to my question of Palestinians or Israelis celebrating after the death of children on the opposite side, you say:
"How stupid? The answer to both is 'some do'."

That's a very convenient answer but the fact is, "some" of the Palestinians amounts to thousands if not tens of thousands, out in the streets, on television and in newspapers celebrating.

Is the same true of "some" in Israel? Nope and you know it.

"You know there are crazy religious settlers like there are crazy religious Palestinians. "

Sure, and their are crazy environmentalists who would kill loggers. But it's statistically insignificant. You are comparing massive throngs of blood-thirsty animals on one side, with a almost insignificant if not non-existent minority on the other. There's no way for you to fiddle the numbers, the fact is, one side has a culture of death, the other doesn't.

While Israeli kids are watching MTV and "Rehov Sumsum" - Sesame Street, guess what Palestinian kids are watching?  http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part1.html It's a culture of death. The Palestinian Authority was given BILLIONS of dollars in 'aid' money. Did they build a SINGLE playground with it? Of course not. Better the kids throw rocks and provide cover for gunmen behind them.

You ask what do you I deem as 'accidental'? Look in the dictionary. Now I know you'll say "but the Israelis know that if they bomb an apartment building there is a chance of non-combatants being hit"... Unfortunately that's true, but it's because the terrorists deliberately and strategically hide in built up areas. What is Israel meant to do? Nothing?

It would be easier if the Palestinian Authority rounded up terrorists but they instead roundly rejected the idea of peace alongside Israel.

You ask why the Palestinians are now the victims of the result of the Holocaust (Israel) when they had nothing to do with it. Interestingly, that's not correct. In fact, Haj Amin al Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (who after the term was invented would be known as a 'Palestinian' had frequent meetings with Adolph Hitler. All the Jews=Nazis propaganda (and it is nothing more) conveniently overlooks this as well. Once again you have been sucked in by the propaganda arm of a culture of death.

Here's some more, and a photo or two of him with Himmler as well:
 http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?t=189&page=4

And here's some charming photos of Hezbollah types giving the Nazi salute.
 http://www.waronline.org/terror/hizballah/recruts.jpg

Let me guess, they're just misunderstood as well right?

You also accused me of "Racism" (gee there's a well-known lefty accusation) for stating indisputable facts about Arab standards of living.

You know I am no fan of the UN, however in that you seem to be, allow me to refer you to the Arab Human Development Report 2003, commissioned by the United Nations.
 http://www.undp.org.sa/Reports.htm and  http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/englishpresskit2003.html

I note that this was also prepared BY ARABS, so think hard before summarily writing me off as a racist when I am merely stating facts.

Finally, you keep talking about "one state" as a solution.
The Palestinians have made no attempt at hiding their intention to destroy Israel. The Arabs have been trying militarily since 1948 and failed. A one state solution would allow the Palestinians (who breed at an extremely high rate) to achieve it demographically. It would also be suicide for Israel.

Have a look at the Palestinian Information Center Website
 http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/am/publish/article_10054.shtml

Note the opening paragraph:"Gaza - A Zionist settler was killed yesterday and two others wounded in Qassam missile attack on the Sderot settlement in the 1948 occupied areas adjacent to the Gaza Strip."

They can't even bring themself to say the word "Israel". As for "1948 occupied area" it's pretty clear what they are suggesting throughout the whole site - Israel has no right to exist.

Of course despite massive evidence indicating constant Jewish presence in the area for thousands of years, anyone who still believes that other propaganda about it originally being Palestinian territory will be able to answer one single question:

Can you name a single Palestinian leader prior to Arafat?

I'm not holding my breath...

So, you have lies, propaganda and a hate-filled culture of death. Keep telling me why it's all Israel's fault.

See the current incarnation of  http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v20/v20n4p11_Okeefe.html

'Nazihunter' (it pains me to use your name as you take in vain what happened in the holocaust just to make an emotional but obscuring political point),

Sigh - how we repeat ourselves to no purpose. Can't we all leave it at that?

We are not going to convince each other that 'our' version of history is the one and only truth. Until we start trying to understand (& that involves listening rather than arguing) and can accept that we each have our own truth, and however contradictory, they have to be accepted before we can move towards peace and security for all, until that point, we are all fucked.

Please think about how you feel right now, reacting to what's been written, getting ready to write more yourselves.
Then think about a place you have felt safe, at peace, at some point in your life or dreams.
Then notice the difference.

Enough.

"but it's because the terrorists deliberately and strategically hide in built up areas"

For christs sake they live there!!! What do you expect...if a foreign army come and occupy the land you live in...say you live in Manchester. The German army come, and occupy England. Are you going to move out of your home in Manchester, and what? Set up a tent outside? With a big tent and flag saying 'Resistance'? Perhaps by deliberately and strategically you mean they were born and raised there. It is akin to saying that the Israeli soldiers deliberately and strategically live in Israel, so the civilian casualties caused by suicide bombings are justified. I mean, most civilians serve in the army, right? Now, I don't think either is right, but YOU have a racist, rose-tinted view that Palestinian civilian casualties are 'mistakes', and Israeli ones are 'deliberate'. What a lie!!! There have been reports of soldiers deliberately murdering civilians in cold blood. See Tom Hurndall, for example. The soldier who shot a girl, and then emptied the clip into her body. Was that a mistake?
"A schoolgirl riddled with bullets. And no one is to blame"
 http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1332219,00.html

You stated 'If Israel had never existed, would the Arabs live on more than $2 a day? I doubt it. Would Arab women have basic rights? No way.' Your implication is that naturally the Arabs are primitive and barbaric, a racist assertation. The arab world suffers from having been carved up by the colonial powers in the middle-east, and in having corrupt puppet regimes placed at their head. And US interference has kept it that way. Once upon a time, Iran had a democratically elected prime minister. He tried to nationalise the oil, and the US and Britain overthrew him and put in place the despotic Shah, later paving the way for the Islamic Revolution to take place. These corrupt regimes that run Saudi, Egypt, Jordan...who backs them and arms them and keeps them in place, despite their abuse of their own people? It is the US. The US backed and armed Saddam. The only fault of the Arab people in general is that they have not been able to resist this effectively, and overthrow these tyrants. Perhaps they will in the near future.

'A one state solution would allow the Palestinians (who breed at an extremely high rate)'
I love the way you use such racist language and insinuation. What are the Palestinians? Cockroaches to you? You are talking about human beings, not vermin.

'Can you name a single Palestinian leader prior to Arafat?'
You know as well as I do that before the British came and cut the middle-east up into arbitrary chunks, it was one land. So any leaders I name will be of all the middle-east. How about Saladin? 1000 years ago, he liberated Palestine from the invading crusaders. The Arabs have been in that land for over a 1000 years. 'Palestine' was the Roman name of the province. I don't know enough about the political structures of administration during those hundreds of years to tell you who was the leader of that province. But you know as well as I do, that the Arabs lived in that land, worked on that land, and were driven from that land by invading colonisers.

"You ask why the Palestinians are now the victims of the result of the Holocaust (Israel) when they had nothing to do with it. Interestingly, that's not correct. In fact, Haj Amin al Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (who after the term was invented would be known as a 'Palestinian' had frequent meetings with Adolph Hitler"
Uh-huh, I know that. He was a nazi idiot. Can you explain to me what the Palestinian people had to do with the holocaust, though? WHy they had to pay the price for what the Europeans did? Why a Jewish state had to be carved out of the land held by 'primitive, darker skinned, not as important people', and not out of, for example, Germany. That is not the fault of the Jews. It is the fault of the British. They used Jewish suffering for their own end 'to create our own little ulster in the middle-east', promising a land that didn't belong to them to the Jews, while not accepting much Jewish immigration themselves. Why do the Palestinians pay the price for European anti-semitism and colonial greed?

Finally, you talk about the culture of hate perpetrated by the Arab media. What about the culture of hate perpetrated by our own media. How often are the Arabs portrayed as greedy, murderous terrorists by the movies and computer games? I wonder how many arabs Israeli children have killed in front of their computer screens. I wonder how many arabs we've watched massacred by Chuck Norris. How many times have we been told that the muslims are barbaric, primitive, extremist. Palestinian propaganda may not be as sophisticated as our Western capitalist propoganda, but their media is a lot poorer.
www.jsalloum.org/videos.html
'Planet of the Arabs'....it's great

Our children do not spend all their days watching Sesame Street. There is as much a culture of violence here as there, in our movies, TV programs, video games.

Finally, Jonathan 2, I know it's tedious seeing the same things typed backwards and forwards, over and over again. I am tired of typing it, to be honest. But I just want them to open their eyes and see what is happening to the Palestinians. We can accept we each have our 'own' truth, but that personal truth has to be shown up against what is REALLY true, ie) the senseless slaughter of innocent lives. If my own personal truth is as a denier of the holocaust, is that acceptable? No. And it is no more acceptable for someone to try and justify the killing, torture and humiliation of the occupation, and the stealing of a peoples land and home. That may be 'their truth', but it is a truth founded on hatred and fear.

Jonathan2, my fingers are also getting sore and I'm happy to leave it for now.

I'll leave with some food for thought on the root causes of terror however, and it's not about Israel.

It's further to Hermes(?) comment that:

"We don't find Tibetans flying planes into our buildings"

There's a good reason for that, and it's sure not the one you suspected.
It's the same reason *poor* Ethiopians don't blow up children.
It's the same reason *occupied* Native Americans (or Tibetans) don't saw off people's heads

It's no co-incidence. The reason, is they are not inspired by Militant Islam.

The sooner people realise the threat of Militant Islam, rather than looking to blame themselves for it, or look in the wrong place for a 'cause' (poverty, oppression, occupation etc.) the sooner the world can be rid of this threat. As Daniel Pipes said, Militant Islam is the problem, Moderate Islam is the solution.

Think about it.

P.S. My posting handle originates elsewhere on the IMC network where it was quite correct and appropriate. It's out of context here but I maintain it for consistency, that's all. It's also something I have done 'in real life' so spare me the lecture on Holocaust disrespect.