Hmm. Well, Palestinians kicked every Jew out of the west bank and gaza (other than ones hiding in guarded "settlements), and the entire country of Jordan, which is mostly Palestinians, kicked every Jew out.

So, if it's basically illegal or impossible to even be a Jew in Jordan or the West bank or gaza, why in hell should Israel hand land control over?

Frankly, it's pretty damn nice of Israel to have not kicked out the actual muslim israelis. You realize that almost 20% of Israeli citizens are muslim (not talking about palestinians, talking about israeli muslims/arabs).

So, while 20% of israeli citizens are muslim, and in the west bank and gaza jews can't even exist, and in jordan jews can't exist, and palestinians spent 40 years now trying to attack every israeli jew they can get at, I can understand Israel saying "fuck this, you wanted to exterminate us, we won this land in self defense, we tried to offer it to you 500 times in exchange for peace, you always rejected us, so screw you, get out, we're keeping it."

Seems pretty reasonable if you put things in proper full perspective.

Seems like a good plan to me as long as

1 All palestinian refugees have the option of returning to their homes. This will be the decision of each refugee.

2 The security of returning refugees is guarantted by the UN.

3 The UN agrees to rebuild destroyed palestinian villages and help returning refugees.

4 The UN sets up a land commision to arbitrate on land disputes. The UN will have final say.

5 Financial compensation or equivalent land will be given to platestians refugees who either choose not to return or cannot regian former land.

6 The US, UK, France Germany etc agree to take any palestian refugee who would rather settle out of the Middle-East.

7 The state of Israel will not be a theocracy and will add clauses to its constitution to remove any state religion.

8 Israel will withdraw from the Golan heights.

9 Israel will destroy its nuclear weapons and sign the non-proliferation treaty.

10 A truth and reconciliation council will be set up along the lines of South Africa and all political prisoners are freed.


11 UN monitored elections will take place. The UN will provide finance to help new political parties.

12 A UN commision will be set up to ensure that government represent the population.

Jordanians can only represent its citizens to sayinh they repesent anybody makes no sense. But on the whole seems like a good plan to me as long as

1 All palestinian refugees have the option of returning to their homes. This will be the decision of each refugee.

2 The security of returning refugees is guarantted by the UN.

3 The UN agrees to rebuild destroyed palestinian villages and help returning refugees.

4 The UN sets up a land commision to arbitrate on land disputes. The UN will have final say.

5 Financial compensation or equivalent land will be given to platestians refugees who either choose not to return or cannot regian former land.

6 The US, UK, France Germany etc agree to take any palestian refugee who would rather settle out of the Middle-East.

7 The state of Israel will not be a theocracy and will add clauses to its constitution to remove any state religion.

8 Israel will withdraw from the Golan heights.

9 Israel will destroy its nuclear weapons and sign the non-proliferation treaty.

10 A truth and reconciliation council will be set up along the lines of South Africa and all political prisoners are freed.


11 UN monitored elections will take place. The UN will provide finance to help new political parties.

12 A UN commision will be set up to ensure that government represent the population.

... and a shameless lack of simple compassion.

If you haven't read the original article, in which the israeli tourism[sic] minister was said to be on his way with the israeli 'negotiating' position [on the roadmap] to washington, then I suggest you follow the links above.

I get the impression that either the two commentators above, haven't or are avoiding the issue.

The 'plan' is too drive out ALL the Palestians too Jordan (which has somehow ceased to be a soverign state and now miraculously become THE Palestinian state!

Oh, and the other thing is the international community is paying for it too!

Naturally over the next few weeks there will be much attempt to focus on the issues and engage in debate. This will prove to be quite hard because of the efforts of two groups of people.

The far right nutters who regard there racial catagorisation as 'white', 'nordic' or 'arrayn' will claim that ALL jews are evil, power hungery and debased etc etc. They are fools. Last night I made a small list of my favourite entertainers, musicians, writers, political figures etc - a high proportion of jewish people ... I suspect that this would be the same for most of the people reading these words. Sure, religion is pretty weird - so what ... most people who are catagorised under one of them haven't taken aboard very much of it.

The other group of people that will interupt, confuse and sabotage debate are what has become to be known as zionazies. There has been much discussion of this term, and in truth I have turned slightly away from it, knowing as I do that there where a very large group of decent socialist [leaning] people who believed in the power of being ... NICE ... and treating ALL as equals, that defined themselves as zionists. Unfortunately, as is often the case, this movement has been subdued, infiltrated and abused. Now the jewish equivalent of the far right (and here we run into the difficulty of definitions), the zionist movement has turned its back on a secular humanist frame of reference and instead encompasses the racial superiority nonsense that springs so readily from religious observation (as a opposed to a spiritual quest).

Now, the plan is too 'judanise@ the land from the river jordan to the mediteranian sea. This endeavour is frightenly achievable by a puffed up military arrogance partnered with a vicious 'blood and land' sky ghost routine. Frightening not only from the point of view of the enivitable suffering of the Palestinian people but for the long suffering jewish population of the world.

Lacking the capacity for compassion and the restraint of collective intelligence, the far right, the religiouly intolerant of christianity and islam, and the great tide of humanity that flows with the ebb of harsher-louder-active sentiments - will be moved to respond as they are directed from above (and I'm not talking about the 'big guy').

The result will be a dangerous world of war. Again. Those whos intentions encompass such an outcome have done it before. This is where the familiar clarion call of 'conspiracy theory' comes into its own, and the denials and recriminations come in thick and fast. Despite the death and destruction (250 million + deaths & $2-5 trillion, in todays money, in distruction) of the second world war SOMEBODY GOT RICH ON IT!

OTHERS INCREASED THERE POWER BASE INCREDIBLY.

The only question worth asking about this and the comming direction of the middle east 'peace process' is WHO?

Who are these people? When sometimes I ask people what they know about the worlds BILLIONAIRES, I am often faced with response of 'so what, I don't care what the rich scum does etc etc', or more usally flat denial.

They ain't jewish.
They ain't christian.
They ain't muslim.

Sometimes I wonder if they are even human - but that really puts the lizards in the looney hen, so to speak.

MORE COMPASSION MORE LOVE MORE UNDERSTANDIND PLEASE.

These are INVINCIBLE WEAPONS OF MASS DESIRE.

that should read TRILLIONAIRES.

Yes TRILLIONAIRES!!!

There will be no "Palestinian right of return." If you demand that arabs who left their homes 40 years ago should be given them back, where will the jews who live in them go? Will you also demand that the arab countries that took away jewish homes will give those homes back, too?

Why do you demand that arabs who "lost" their homes to israeli jews get their homes back, but the jews who now live in those homes, you don't demand that the arabs who took THEIR homes give them back?

You realize that arab countries kicked their jews out, and/or stole all their stuff, right? Iraq used to have a massive jewish community, like 200,000 jews or so, and they all lost their homes and their money and possessions, and became refugees who flocked to israel.

How much history do you want to undo, exactly?

The "right of return" will not happen. It is not practical, it is ridiculous, and the "right of return" should happen for both sides... only problem is that you can't even be a jew in most arab countries anymore...

Also, why are you saying that jews can't have one jewish state, but you are ok with muslims having multiple muslim states? Why the double standard? Muslim countries make it almost impossible for jews to exist in them. That's why it's important israel not be taken over. And, not wanting holocaust 2 is rather good, too.

Also, Israel should never, ever withdraw from the golan heights. Syria is massive. Syria constantly attacked Israel from the golan heights. Israel won it in war. It's only about 1% of syria's total land mass. IT is a jagged bit of land that is right above israel and was being used to bomb israel. So in war, Israel won it. It's theirs. To demand they return it to nutcases who will just use it to bomb them again is retarded.

Furthermore, Israel shouldn't sign any agreement at this point that gives the likes of Arafat any control. Can't we find some moderate palestinians to run them? Arafat's been the ONE AND ONLY palestinian leader for 35 years in a row now, isn't there enough evidence yet that he's just an old washed up terrorist freak loser asshole? No one that he hand-picks should run the place. Can't we find some normal nice civil sane palestinian leadership candidates who aren't religious extremists and won't let palestine turn into yet another arab terrorist state once it develops?

I have to say that I consider those of you who have posted here approving of these proposals to be expressing a racist point of view. How did the workld treat South Africa?

You trot out the same old tired defences.

The one, for instance, about how the Palestinians were offered 90% of what they asked, and turned it down. Please be aware that new evidence is emerging which absolutely refutes this claim. Please see
 http://www.phillyimc.org/article.pl?sid=03/05/01/0310226&mode=thread

There was no symmetry between the two expulsions, as one poster claims. One followed and resulted from the other. One was hugely bigger than the other. In one case migrants went to a welcoming state which declared itself as their unique homeland, desperate for immigrants and giving them huge emotional and financial support on arrival, as well as full citizenship from the word go. In the other the migrants were unwelcome, shoved into squalid refugee camps where they still remain in absolute poverty, and got no citizenship.

Also, please abandon the old trick of misquoting your opponents position, and then attacking that.

All but the most extreme Palestinians have drastically altered their position over the years. They no longer demand the right of return to inside the 67 borders. The current position of the PA is that they accept the will of the international community, and will implement the roadmap AS IT STANDS. Will Israel do the same ? The signs are not good.

Please address your opponents position as it is NOW, not as it was in the past.

So it comes as a surprise to some people to find that, almost without exception, every Jew who posts on IMC reveals him/herself to be in full agreement with Israel's rabid xenophobic actions. Speaking for myself, I have never had any illusions in this matter.

People are not born racist. Racism is something people learn. And, through their words, these Jews do nothing than teach the world how to hate them.

These Jews are very negative people. IMC should have nothing to do with their bigoted, racist, small-minded hate filled views.

The poster above will hopefully rot in hell with adolf hitler someday. You clueless fucking piece of shit asshole.

P.S. Pretty much the only people who dislike "the jews" are LOSERS who are jealous that while jewish kids are taught by their parents to read, write, learn and love, you were probably neglected, beaten, and work at mcdonalds.

... facing up to the issues of racism and xenophobia in jewish culture - shooting the messenger down.

Interesting use of derogatory comments by the last poster - reveals their feelings on the matter without the usual restraint ... jewish children are great because their parents are, non-jewish children are doomed to a life of flipping burgers because that is the place their parens genes have destined them for!?!

YOU are part of the problem pal, and precisely why those who prefer to let others do their thinking for them are being enticed by the irrational prejudice of those who would like to explain away all the ills on society as being the fault of .... .... .... [fill in the blanks according to your own prejudice].

I'm the poster above who made those comments about the guy rotting in hell, and I'm NOT jewish. But I HATE, absolutely HATE these anti-semitic fucks that rant lame SHIT about "jewish culture." Fuck you for being an asshole, and fuck you for not even recognizing that talking such CRAP about "the jews" should be stamped away with talking about "the blacks" or "the asians" or "the ANYONE." Can we deal with REALITY and INDIVIDUALS, and not hold entire groups responsible for what a few allegedly do?

That's my point, you thick-headed moron.

The usual foul lanuage, the personal insults, the inability or unwillingness to address the central issues.

Yes reality is full of individuals, but it is also full of groups that act together or are lumped together from some accident of history or birth.

We are talking about those who choose to act collectively.

"alledgedly"???

Obviously you use this word because you are incapable or reluctant to admit that there is no "alledgedly" about it.

You can "absolutely hate" what you choose, some of us thick headed morans think there is a better way.

It appears you are judging "Jewish culture" because of how a political group handles a war/terrorism situation. That is pretty stupid. One has nothing to do with the other. Generally, the teachings of "Jewish culture" do not include anything about war or fighting. You seem to want to put "the Jews" (which implies every Jew in the world) on the defensive because of how one army deals with its foe. It will be nice when "the Jews" don't have to defend themselves from anti-semites anymore.