While I think I share your views of organised religion I'm not sure which of your human rights were being flouted by your baptism. Certainly not your freedom of religion as I see that when you grew up you made up your own mind on the subject and even the Catholic Church has been willing to acknowledge your decision by noting it next to the entry in the baptism record. Not your right to life, or free speech, or freedom of assembly. Which of your human rights were being flouted?

your right to freedom of thought....

OK Spud, it's like this.
Though article 18 of the universal declaration of human rights states that I have the right to change my religion, it also states that "everyone has the right to freedom of thought....."
It seems to go without saying, though, that parents have the right to indoctrinate their children into a religion (and therefore claim a kind of ownership of the child) which, in many cases, denies people their freedom of thought. Most people do not question the religion their parents choose for them and nor are they encouraged to. Often a change will cause family argument or rifts. So. although we can change our religion, it doesn't state that we have the right to be free of our parents' choice from the very beginning.
In effect, parents are encouraged to be abusive (which is what I consider this practice to be) to their children. How many Muslims do you think would be brave enough to change their religion - ie. think for themselves - when they are threatened with death if they do so?
When the christian religion first came into being people were baptised only when they were old enough to make the choice themselves.
Perhaps it is the right of the child that I am looking at. I don't know, I only know that there is powerful emotional blackmail at work here and, meanwhile, the numbers game continues and people are used as pawns in the game.
That's an infringement of my rights in my book.

Thanks Devana. Couldn't have put it better myself!

The main argument seems to be that raising a child with a religious belief is an oppression of their freedom to think because they are not being allowed to reach their own conclusions about religion. I can't agree with that. Parents strongly influence their children about pretty much everything, thereby preventing a child from making up their own mind independently, but this isn't a violation of the child's freedom of thought.

Specifically from Devana's post...

"It seems to go without saying, though, that parents have the right to indoctrinate their children into a religion (and therefore claim a kind of ownership of the child) which, in many cases, denies people their freedom of thought."

Of course parents strongly influence their children in many ways but I wouldn't claim for a moment this denies people their freedom of thought.

"Often a change will cause family argument or rifts."

Many things cause family arguments or rifts, but this doesn't mean they're human rights abuses. Family arguments and rifts happen over all sorts of matters - who someone's going to marry, whether someone should get divorced and so on, but I don't think that just because someone's family disapproves of their actions means that their human rights are being violated.

"So, although we can change our religion, it doesn't state that we have the right to be free of our parents' choice from the very beginning."

You believe children have some right to be free of their parents' choice from the very beginning? There is no such right. There cannot possibly ever be such a right. A child's parents are the most influential people in their lives (at least early on). That's just how human beings are - children pick things up (some of it good, some of it bad) from their parents. To say that a child has a right to be uninfluenced by its parents is like saying that a child has a right to be able to breathe underwater or a right to a life free of all disease and sadness - it just defies biology.

"In effect, parents are encouraged to be abusive (which is what I consider this practice to be) to their children."

I disagree. Bringing a child up with some kind of moral structure and/or overview of how the world operates is not abusive. I'd say it's part of a parent's job (disclaimer - I don't have or want kids). Obviously actually coercing, threatening, brutalising is completely unacceptable but that's not the same thing as raising a child with religious beliefs.

"How many Muslims do you think would be brave enough to change their religion - ie. think for themselves - when they are threatened with death if they do so?"

You're now talking about people being threatened with death/injury for making up their own minds or questioning an othodoxy. That is completely inexcusable. But it is a different thing than parents just bringing their children up in a certain way.

It takes a bit of study, etc but you could change your religion to Judaism.

Any old rabbi would get up the nose of the Pope. He would continously niggle the old codger at the Vatican and in no time the latter would have to give up and order those here to remove your name.

Think about it - with just a bit of foreskin remove you could get your name off the Catholic "won" list and you also get up the beak of the guy wearing bedsheets.

fuck religion

Wow, now all it takes to have someone's life ruined is a couple drops of water that can't even be remembered. Get a life all of your racists and bigots.

There is stuff like wars, genocide and real brainwashing going on in our world-- that human beings can bitch about. But, that takes a bit of brains, and there is not much evidence of that here.

Get with it Rene, my friend. What are most wars fought over?
It's not quite as simple an issue as you would like to believe.
And, Montefiore, you're making a bit of an assumption about my gender there.
To reply to the non-parent who seems to have a golden glow idea about parenting. The church had very little to do with my moral education as a child. If you believe that dragging a kid to church every sunday and shoving it into a catholic school helps with its moral education think again. Look at the fiasco in northern ireland recently where 'religious' parents were setting an excellent example of moral behaviour fighting outside a catholic school.
You're right. There's not much brain work going on here on Indymedia.
"The bigger the lie ..........."
"The personal IS political"

OIL. In prior time periods, big wars were fought over other stuff. Sometimes for religious or race supremacy, sometimes to gain seaports or territory, etc.

In 2002, many wars are going on. The big wars are mostly for oil. However, all wars are fought for one thing only. For profit. No country would ever begin a war, if it did not think it could profit.

In all wars, find the warmongers and you will find the profiteers. It is very simple.

"If you believe that dragging a kid to church every sunday and shoving it into a catholic school helps with its moral education think again."

I didn't claim for a second that it helped anyone. I just pointed out that it wasn't an infringement of their human rights. Since you ask, I suspect it probably harms some, helps others and has no special effect on most. Parents do lots of things which their children don't like, and which aren't particularly good for them, but that does not mean that they are violating their children's human rights. Heck, I *hated* being forced to play football in the freezing cold rain every week and it did me no good whatsoever but I got over it without holding any lasting grudge against footballers. I don't go round complaining that my human rights were trampled on, either.

"Look at the fiasco in northern ireland recently where 'religious' parents were setting an excellent example of moral behaviour fighting outside a catholic school."

Your point being? Some parents are good, some parents are bad. Some parents are religious, some parents are not. One quality (their "religiousness") is independent from the other (their "goodness"). In Northern Ireland recently we have seen a lot of bad religious parents. There are also many bad non-religious parents in the world. Thankfully they are generally outnumbered by good parents, some of whom are religious and some of whom are not.

So you had a rubbish time at school, and you didn't like being taken to church every Sunday. My heart bleeds for you. Now get over it and stop pretending that your experience is on a par with people who have suffered actual human rights abuses such as having their family kidnapped and their house burnt down by the secret police. Their human rights have been flouted. Yours have not.