Black block NOT violent - capitlaism is!
Madame Cholet | 17.12.2001 23:23
It is easy for overpriveleged middlecass and western people to criticise the black block as "violent"
It is easy for over privileged middleclass and western people to criticise the black block as "violent"; I am sure that people like Michelle actually do want to change the world for a better place but I really find your comments upsetting.
How can you go on a march with people who are supposed to be your comrades and then turn around and defend police action and criticise the only people who have enough guts to put their liberty and health on the line by destroying property belonging to companies who are responsible for the deaths and misery of millions?
Don’t kid yourself, capitalism kills, about 15,000 children a day, to be precise. Just because it is going on on the other side of the world and away from our nice western comfort zone it can be easy for us to criticise, but that does not make it any less real for the victims of it.
I am not criticising you personally because I know that you, like the rest of us, are only products of the society that we live in, but please, open your mind and your heart to what is going on. The police come to us with weapons and violence, how can you say that we go to them with violence?
It is our rights as human beings living on a world which belongs to us to march down our streets and create an autonomous zone which is ours; The police are agents of oppression.
They are also individuals and human beings and I was there for them as much as I was there for any other oppressed human being, but they attack us and even would be happy to kill us, don’t kid yourself.
The black block were extremely restrained and pretty much only used "violence" if you want to call property damage "violence" against targets which can only be described as legitimate, and not human beings.
I saw the black block smashing property and when somebody working there tried physically to stop these 5 or so people physically, they did not respond with violence because, unlike the police, they respect life.
Police would smash you over the head for no reason, as you said.
The difference between them and us: we do what we do because we believe in it, we are the righteous and we have the truth on our side.
They are doing what they do for money. Like the nazis, they are "only doing their job" which is an evil and sick thing to do. They are allowing them.
LOVE AND RAGE
Madame Cholet
How can you go on a march with people who are supposed to be your comrades and then turn around and defend police action and criticise the only people who have enough guts to put their liberty and health on the line by destroying property belonging to companies who are responsible for the deaths and misery of millions?
Don’t kid yourself, capitalism kills, about 15,000 children a day, to be precise. Just because it is going on on the other side of the world and away from our nice western comfort zone it can be easy for us to criticise, but that does not make it any less real for the victims of it.
I am not criticising you personally because I know that you, like the rest of us, are only products of the society that we live in, but please, open your mind and your heart to what is going on. The police come to us with weapons and violence, how can you say that we go to them with violence?
It is our rights as human beings living on a world which belongs to us to march down our streets and create an autonomous zone which is ours; The police are agents of oppression.
They are also individuals and human beings and I was there for them as much as I was there for any other oppressed human being, but they attack us and even would be happy to kill us, don’t kid yourself.
The black block were extremely restrained and pretty much only used "violence" if you want to call property damage "violence" against targets which can only be described as legitimate, and not human beings.
I saw the black block smashing property and when somebody working there tried physically to stop these 5 or so people physically, they did not respond with violence because, unlike the police, they respect life.
Police would smash you over the head for no reason, as you said.
The difference between them and us: we do what we do because we believe in it, we are the righteous and we have the truth on our side.
They are doing what they do for money. Like the nazis, they are "only doing their job" which is an evil and sick thing to do. They are allowing them.
LOVE AND RAGE
Madame Cholet
Madame Cholet
Comments
Hide the following 35 comments
Missing the point BIG time
17.12.2001 23:56
sanity
The Romance of Violence
18.12.2001 00:38
All this talk of creating "autonomous zones" is bullshit when the Black Block don't really seem to have the organisation to do that. Where were the "autonomous zones" being created on Saturday in Brussels when the police surrounded us in the working class district of Brussels. I saw plenty of Black Block and no organisation. When the police fenced off the street leading back into the shopping district of town, I didn't see the Black Bloc organising to confront them and force their way through (which they realistically had the numbers to do ). What I saw were a load of idiots standing on local people's cars and shouting at the police. Wow. The pigs must have been terrified.
I've been on about three "Anti-capitalist" demos now, ( Prague, Genoa and Brussels ), and I've come to the conclusion that the so-called "Black-Block" are nothing but a bunch of romantic kids who want to smash things up and aren't really doing much in their local communities. These people are only out for the Romantic appeal of pointless trashing, but what did they do for the working class districts they messed up in Brussels on Saturday? Nothing - because they're allergic to hard fucking work.
Jim
Solidarity
18.12.2001 00:51
me
a fish that walks.....................
18.12.2001 02:06
joe
Nice on Mme Cholet
18.12.2001 02:24
People who defend banks defend capitalism. They become our enemy; big up to the BBers who refrained from violence when this provocation occured.
PS
What can they achieve??
18.12.2001 03:37
Kris Denny
What tactics are efficient? When? Where?
18.12.2001 03:38
> oppression, and to smash their windows is clearly a symbolic
> protest against those evils
...
Everyone agrees on this. That's not the issue.
> Would you condemn the people who disabled hawk jets bound for
> genocide in East Timor?
No. The difference is that when people disable hawk jets, they
take the risk of being arrested on themselves. Noone who goes
out on a disabling-hawk-jet action thinks they're going on a
non-violent street march.
> And if not, how is smashing a bank less justifiable than this
> - they're different arms of the same enemy, surely? 'We should
> not confuse ideology and tactics', you say - smugly assuming
> that you are the one who gets to decide what our tactics
> are.
"Anarchy means no rulers, not no rules."
When 95% of people and groups who organise a street action
decide that they want to stick to non-violence, the 5% who
decide in favour of violence make the actions of the 95% much
less effective.
They also scare off the ten times or thousand times as many
people who would participate if they thought that the demo was
about changing political structures and not about breaking
windows.
Eastern European authoritarian regimes fell when millions
marched in the streets. Not when windows were broken.
If 500,000 people had marched on Saturday instead of 5,000,
European capitalism would have been hit much, much harder.
> Well I've got news for you - the Black Block don't take
> kindly to people trying to tell them what to do and I for one
> would far rather share a march with them than with some
> authoritarian voice of 'sanity' trying to restrict our
> movement and, more dangerously, to ostracise a part of it
> which contributes a hell of a lot of enthusiasm, energy and
> vitality.
In past demos, people using Black Bloc tactics have been
acclaimed for their enthusiasm, energy and vitality and from
actions like de-arresting people. Surely they can better use
this energy and courage to risk arrest in things like the CEFIC
action, where it was clear that non-violent disobedience would
lead to significant arrest risk, but only to those
participating - not to people in the street.
We mostly agree on "ideology". The disagreement is on whether
we want tactics to lead to real change or just to footnotes in
the history books.
Dear "me"
Smashing windows = idiocy
18.12.2001 11:13
What will happen to the things you destroy? They'll get rebuilt. While you claim that you're against capitalism, you're making the wheels turn. To pay for the things you broke, insurance companies will pay out. The banks or whatever will then pay someone to replace their windows. End result? More glass manufactured. More energy used. More justification for capitalist institutions like insurance. More pollution, waste, and consumption.
If you claimed to really want to overthrow capitalism, the first question you would ask yourself is "How can I do that?" instead of "How can I express my anger?". News flash: No one cares about you. Life is hard.
Congratulations on changing the world.
chris
chris
e-mail:
cprice@imsmaxims.com
Black Bloc mostly middle class
18.12.2001 12:08
>It is easy for overpriveleged middlecass and western >people to criticise the black block as "violent"
Have I got news for you...
Most black blocers are middle class (as is with most of the so-called anti-cap movement), from priviliged backgrounds etc. They can actually afford (time and money) to do this, they don't have to be afraid of their livelihood if they take action - that is middle class.
It's nothing wrong in being an activist and middle class (as I am) - the more the merrier. But please, let's dismantle the myth that all the people marhing in the streets come from the "working class" or the proletariat.
A lot of working class people are put off by the tactics of the black bloc, thus making the potential movement smaller. Personally I don not have a problem with smashing up banks etc., but still there is a time and place for everything. And now, I feel, going on the rampage does not garner a lot of support or attention (as it has done).
Midnight Moron
More bullshit on the black block
18.12.2001 12:35
demonstrations are middle class? Do you posess some sort of class detectoring device? And are working
class people afraid of violence with the police, look
at 1981, look at Brixton and Broadwater Farm, look at
Oldham, Burnley.......violence in this case, throwing bottles, bricks and scaffold polls have been the tools of
working class resistance not your fucking trot papers
or lefty front groups.
@
e-mail:
.
Homepage:
www.wombleaction.mrnice.net
Burning Ambition
18.12.2001 13:17
But I'll still instinctively side with real anarchist property destroyers in any debate -- because their actions at least open up the possibility of change, freedom and gaining a different political space. Sterile marches and 'organising' that does not challenge authority has changed nothing, and probably never will.
Adem
Take a look at "This could be many things"
18.12.2001 13:24
Also, most of the people who participate in the capitalist system are not our enemy, they probably consider themselves (largely correctly) to be no one's enemy. They are contributing their taxes and hence to the capitalist system but they are also contributing time and effort, to the greater good, that's kind of what you're supposed to get paid for in capitalism, contributing. It's just that there are a lot of ways to get around that, ie make money by doing things that don't contribute, or even take from the 'greater good'. I'm a student at the moment, reason being that I want to get the skills to be useful to people, whatever system I may be living under (or 'in' if it's anarchy by the time I get there).
I think people that think that there is no way forward now other than violent action (violent = any kind of destruction) should take at the article posted this morning called "this could be many things". The technical bit is a bit... solid... but it seems sound. Something to try to build, as opposed to something to try and take down. Who can help?
middle man
middle class again
18.12.2001 14:12
If you read my post I did not say anything about that the "working class" did not rise up. It is when the masses (which is something more than the traditional working class) of people rise up that real change comes, and it is the masses that should rise up. Sometimes they do, sometimes not.
My point was exactly the same as yours. The person that wrote the first comment said that everyone that did not support the black bloc were middle class. I know quite a lot of people that are black blocers and they are middle class. I did not put any value judgement in that. It does not matter what your fucking background is if you want to fight to overthrow capitalism.
I come from the middle class and I do support the black bloc. But I also know a lot of working class people who do not support property damage and fighting with the police.
midnight moron
Black Block Posh Kids
18.12.2001 14:16
uno
Hey Mr. Middle of the road Man
18.12.2001 14:57
Michael Bakunin.
sol
Don't you think...
18.12.2001 17:14
middle man
authority needs to be challenged
18.12.2001 19:02
i dont think destroying property is a good way to convince people in the west but ask a girl who is working in a Nike sweatshop who has just been sexually abused by her employer and she hears rumours that people in the west realise their position and are putting thier lives and privileges of living in the west on the line for them. are they going to say oh that's so horrible hitting that cop. or that's so horrible smahing that window?
you obviously have to balance support here and in the rest of the world. the aim agreed upon by 95% of the people was to shut down the summits taking place. ya basta tried but failed. the black bloc failed as well but in my opinion only the militancy has the potential to actually shut down the summit.
look at the zapatistas are you going to shout them down for being violent? the importance is to combine both mass support and militancy. that means stop moaning about the BB and going out and making an effort to convince people that the system needs to be challenged in revolution. if we were to simply compromise ourselves to the extent that the media liked us we would cease to be revolutionary. revolutionaries are people who try to change people's minds and openly discuss their own future and then go on to take that future into their own hands
against all authority
Troll Alert
19.12.2001 10:07
Firstly, I have been active within the Black Block for over three years. My social origins, and those of my comrades, are totally unimportant. What is important is where we are going, not where we come from! Believe me, the Black Block represents respect for a diversity of tactics, and a diversity of social forms. And we are not just kids . . . I met a lady who was old enough to be my grandmother in a ski-mask at Genoa!
Secondly, I am happy to take personal criticism from anti-capitalists who sincerely believe in non-violence. Some of us believe in non-violence too . . . we got involved in the struggle to liberate people's minds, not to engage in pointless destruction. So not all of us are "stupid kids" or "football hooligans".
Lastly, and this is just SO IMPORTANT. The more the Black Block is criticised by Stalinists, Trotskyists, trolls and police stooges, the more we will grow. Political violence is like the green slime in the film "Ghostbusters". It feeds off negative energy. So the next time you criticise us, remember that your comments have just RECRUITED ONE MORE ANARCHIST TO THE STRUGGLE. Ha ha.
Anarchist Rioter
non-violence?
20.12.2001 14:57
The alternative is constant lobbying and political pressure. We still live (ostensibly) in a democracy. We don't get to express ourselves through constitutional channels very often but we have the option to mobilise en masse to demonstrate the depth and breadth of support for a particular position (remember what "demonstration" means?) to government. We can approach our MP's individually or in groups and propose Private Members Bills to be debated in parliament and possibly added to the statute books. It is possible to pursue socialism/anarchy through parliament, it just takes Socialist/Anarchist MP's sitting on the benches, participating in commitees and debates, voting on Bills and generally convincing folk that voting for the right MP can make a difference. A radical inside Parliament is a much more effective engine of political change than ten thousand of them standing in the street outside parliament.
Proportional representation would allow a more various array of MPs into Parliament, see the success of list MP's in Scotland for example, a few radicals in parliament might be all it takes to see the system start to turn it's attention to dismantling itself and arranging further devolution (that is after all what anarchy is, government devolved to the most appropriate level).
Fact of the matter is that the majority of people in this country don't want a revolution, they just want peace and quiet and twenty-three channels of football. Until the Anarchists can convince sheeple that they should get off their arses and read a book on history or politics then folks will be happy to be governed.
The thing that I see in loads of postings on this site is the idea that a revolution of some kind is desirable. Sudden change is no good from a systems perspective. If you change to an entirely new system then by the time you have implemented it, found out what doesn't work right and tried to fix it, the errors have propogated right through the system and the people operating the system have become entrenched in bad practice. You change one thing at a time and see if it makes things better or worse. We live in such a complex world, what would an anarchist Britain do with our military? How would it compete economically with the rest of the world? We do, after all, need to import loads of goods, we need a strong economy and a strong currency for that not to cripple us monetarily. Yeah, there are really bad conditions around the world but it is far easier by action or inaction to join them in penury than to share our surpluses.
I'm afraid that every nation in the world right now has to pander to big business to some degree, it seems silly to imagine any anarcho-syndicalist representatives negotiating with an oil company over a pipeline project (such as those from the North Sea fields to the mainland) are going to have more influence or power of vetoe on the project than our current government does. That oil will come out of the ground regardless.
I'll join the revolution when I've seen the Anarchist Shadow Government annual reports.
Peace
R@@@-t@
Against violence
20.12.2001 18:46
So long as the black block or any other group engage in violent confrontation on anti-capitalist demonstrations, people like me will remain excluded and will not participate. In short, the black block has forced us out of demonstrating and off the street. It is very disempowering. If the black block wants to rough up the police or smash the property of the bastards destroying this world, then that's okay by me. Just don't do it in a way in which people's personal safety and liberty is undermined.
A
Sit at home then...
22.12.2001 18:43
If we want a better world, we should expect to have to give some of our time, effort and even put our own lives and health on the line. Peaceful, state sanctioned marches will simply bore people into staying at home.
For a diversity of tactics, and a leaderless movement.
SWP paper seller
Risk
26.12.2001 02:54
In addition I quite resent people saying that most people in the BB will end up as acountants in a few years anyway. That is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard.
___
MIDNIGHT MORON IS A MORON
26.12.2001 12:54
MY COMMENTS IN CAPITALS:
Most black blocers are middle class
HOW THE FUCK DO YOU KNOW THAT?
(as is with most of the so-called anti-cap movement), from priviliged backgrounds etc.
THOSE WHO MAKE UP THE ANTI-CAPITALIST MOVMENT ARE NOT MOST MIDDLE CLASS. BUT THE MOVMENT IS DOMINATED BY MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE. THEY SPEAK THE MOST (USUALLY TALKING CRAP) IN MEETINGS, TO THE MEDIA, AND ON FUCKING EMAIL DISCUSSION LISTS. THEY 'SORT OUT' OR PROVIDE THE FUNDING, AND THEY TRY TO DETERMINE THE DIRECTION OF 'THE MOVMENT'. THEY REPLICATE IN THEIR RESISTANCE THE HIERARCHIES THEY CLAIM THEY OPPOSE.
It's nothing wrong in being an activist and middle class (as I am) - the more the merrier.
OH, WHAT A SUPRISE! YOU THINK THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING MIDDLE-CLASS AND AN 'ACTIIVIST' BECAUSE, YOU ARE MIDDLE CLASS. I WONDER HOW MANY PEOPLE WHO DON'T COME FROM OVER-PRIVILEGED BACKGROUNDS, WITHOUT THE CONFIDENCE/ARROGANCE TO SEPAK AND WRITE THAT SO MANY MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE ARE TRAINED TO DO IN THEIR SCHOOLS AND UNIVERSTITIES, HAVE THIS SAME 'THE MORE THE MERRIER' ATTITUDE. I DON'T THINK THERE ARE MANY.
But please, let's dismantle the myth that all the people marhing in the streets come from the "working class" or the proletariat.
LET'S DISMANTLE THE MYTH THAT THE ANTI-CAPITALIST MOVMENT IS MIDDLE CLASS. IT'S NOT. THE MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE ARE JUST THE ONES WITH THE BIGGEST MOUTHS AND THE ONES IN THE POSITIONS OF POWER WITHIN THE MOVMENT (I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT THE INFORMAL HIERARCHIES HERE - THE HIERARCHIES OF THE GREEN PARTY/SWP SEPAK FOR THEMSELVES).
A lot of working class people are put off by the tactics of the black bloc, thus making the potential movement smaller.
HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS? IF YOU ARE MIDDLE CLASS THEN PRESUMABLY SO ARE MOST OF YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS. IF YOU THINK (INCORRECTLY) THAT THE ANTICAPITALIST MOVMENT IS MIDDLE CLASS THEN I WOULD IMAGINE THAT IS BECAUSE MOST OF YOUR ACTIVIST CLIQUE ARE MIDDLE CLASS. SO WHERE EXACLTY HAVE YOU GOTTON TO KNOW ALL THESE WORKING CLASS PEOPLE WHO HAVE EXPRESSED SUCH DISPLEASURE WITH THE BLACK BLOC?
I'M NOT TOO SURE WHAT I THINK PERSONALLY ABOUT THE BLACK BLOC. BUT, AS A MIDDLECLASS PERSON (PERHAPS WHITE? PERHAPS MALE? PERHAPS FROM AN AFFLUENT COUNTRY? BUT - OF COURSE - MAYBE NOT) YOU MAY FEEL LESS PISSED OFF WITH THE WORLD THAN OTHERS. YOU MAY FEEL LESS POWERLESS THAN OTHERS. YOU MAY NOT FIND THE EXPERIENCE OF BEING IN A CROWD THAT IS ABLE TO LASH OUT AGAINST THAT WHICH IT SEES AS OPPRESSING THEM AS LIBERATING AN EXPERIENCE BECAUSE (TO BE BLUNT) AS A MIDDLECLASS PERSON YOU ARE LESS DIRECTLY FUCKED OVER BY THE SYSTEM THAT WE LIVE IN THAN OTHERS. YOU COME FROM A CLASS OF OPPRESSORS. IF YOU RECOGNISE THIS THEN THE VERY LAST THING YOU SHOULD BE DOING IS TELLING OTHER PEOPLE THE ACCEPTIBLE WAYS OF DOING AWAY WITH A SYSTEM FROM WHICH YOU VERY DIRECTLY BENEFIT.
ANON
Yap yap Yapety yap!
29.12.2001 04:03
I fear the notion of the Velvet Revolution is a bogey. It happened because the USSR was economically crippled by the Afghan war that the US set up for them; because Gorbie ( the Soviet Undertaker ) told them it could happen. And from my experience the Eastern Bloc comrades didn't get exactly what they were after: they got annexed by the Reich...
Historically, as far as I am aware, NO oppressive regime packed up and left merely because they were politely asked to do so.
THAT doesn't mean that violence is the only way of acheiving change. There is also passive resistence, such as a sustained general strike. There is also the notion of establishing a and growing a paralell infrastructure... both of course mean sacrificing a lot of the comforts provided by this infrastructure, i.e. increased hardship. And historically, these actions have provoked brutal retribution from the state, even on these shores in living memory.
There is of course historically a very poor record for violent revolution... it tends to breed worse monsters. Again, this isn't to say a violent revolution *couldn't* be successfull.
And then we get on to the conspiracy theories about *who* the black bloc really are ( MI5??? etc etc etc )
The only way to solve the situation is for violent and non-violent protestors to come to some agreements... fairly daunting prospect on many practical levels let alone organisational.
As for the childish classism.. you are chsing your tails attacking the bourgois with bourgois arguments... = petty bigotry.
You'll have trouble organising the proverbial pissup in the proverbial brewery as long as you are hung up on bourgois stereotypes rather than reaching out to individuals with positive ideas...
Well, I can sleep safely tonight kowning that the bigots' revolution will be chasing its tail long after I and my Barbour jacket have expired their warranty.
Mustermann
Preparing the enemy for the _real_ battle
29.12.2001 21:22
Under scrutiny, the same can't be said of capitalists and their lackeys.
Maybe that will become relevant when we live in a moral world, but till then....
When I see large numbers of police deaths at the hands of the black bloc; when the black bloc can ensure that anything that any crimes against demonstrators will come back to them in kind, THEN maybe I'll support their actions.
What's that you say?
The police are padded?
Trained not to be killed on demonstrations?
SO WHAT'S THE FUCKING POINT??????
the same guy that always tells you it..
oh dear oh dear
04.01.2002 13:14
Shouting angrily about 'revolution'is so easy, isn't it? It saves you having to think about how things can actually be improved; saves you having to talk to any real people who aren't professional activists; saves you having to ask how smashing the glass in a bank window is supposed to lead to any change at all. Saves you having to wonder whether violence can ever breed anything but more violence.
If you want to laud the zapatistas, ask why they haven't used their guns in 7 years. The peaceful, dignified indigenous people of Chiapas don't rampage through Mexico city smashing windows for the hell of it. Everything they do, armed or (usually) not, is done with the agreement of the communities involved. Who asked the people of Genoa if they would mind their 'capitalist' cars and banks being burned? I don't remember the consulta.
Which is the point, isn't it? You call yourself democrats, you babble on self-righteously about how bad 'the capitalist'are and how bloody morally good you are, but you don't give a fuck for the people you claim to fight for. Who asked you to speak for the 'workers' or the cultures of the Global South? Who asked you to chuck cobblestones with their names on it? You don't give a toss about the interests of real people, you just want to indulge your macho lusts. Go ahead; just stop pretending it's anything else but a fight in the pub carpark writ large.
If you want to spend your time shouting about revolution and chucking bricks, feel free. But I don't see the masses rising up to join in. What will really frighten them in the halls of power is not a few masked up thugs indulging their own frustration, but complex, workable plans to take their power from under them - plans that need mass support to work. You won't destroy capitalism with iron bars, or even guns. You may render it irrelevent by making alternatives work in your community. Take off the masks, kids, and start thinking.
One last though: if you really must trash cities, why trash Genoa, Prague ... the most beautiful in Europe? Go and burn down Reading or Swindon. Make yourself useful.
Leblon
Query about the Maoist? group with the BB
09.01.2002 02:19
On december 14th in the confrontation with the police alongside the Black block there was also a group whose flag was the hammer and sickle with a rifle also running through it. What is this group? Are they Maoist?
Chairman K
More links to this discussion
09.01.2002 18:18
and here:
Phuc Hed
This discussion about BB at D14 also HERE
09.01.2002 18:31
The two threads can be found here:
link1
and
link2
(On a side note, a comment of mine which contained a small amount of obscenity was deleted from belgian indymedia with no backup being kept in the "hidden" files section. I recognize in retrospect that obscenity has little place but it was mingled with a genuine argument and should have been presevered in the hidden section. It seems like censorship. And there is no statement of policy that I can find at belgium.indymedia Who do we contact to find out about who the moderators are and what the policies are? )
Phuc Hed
More BB @ D14 threads
09.01.2002 18:45
The discussion about the supposed behaviour of the Black Bloc is also on the Belgian indymedia. An article posted twice (in different sections) by someone called "Maarten" advocates that "peaceful" protestors should break the arms of anarchists in order to defend banks because it means that the media will only focus on violence. (Pretty logical LOL!)
The two threads can be found here:
link1
and
link2
(On a side note, a comment of mine which contained a small amount of obscenity was deleted from belgian indymedia with no backup being kept in the "hidden" files section. I recognize in retrospect that obscenity has little place but it was mingled with a genuine argument and should have been presevered in the hidden section. It seems like censorship. And there is no statement of policy that I can find at belgium.indymedia Who do we contact to find out about who the moderators are and what the site policies are? I can find that with the central indymedia.org but not with the belgian site)
Phuc Hed
tst
09.01.2002 18:52
setst
BB - black bloc - black block
10.01.2002 13:19
BB - this term is being used here and in other places in exactly the same way that the corporate media uses it. In my experience on larger demonstrations it is pretty useless to talk about such a single entity since there are so many groups and individuals involved in the TACTIC.
I like many people on demonstrations have seen inspiring action from people dressed in black and masked up, from amazingly quick tactical barricade construction to crowd protection and stunning de-arrests. I have also seen what I view as unacceptable behaviour from people dressed in black amd masked up, from setting fire to ground floor buildings that have residential flats above them to attacks on members of the public and other demonstrators.
Also property destruction / fighting with police is not limited to people dressed in black and masked up.
On another note - following Genoa (and 911 attacks in the US) it seems that property damage is being redefined as a terrorist offence throughout europe (although it seems anti-capitalist/globalisation protests themselves are being legislated against). At the same time europe continues talks about creating an eu wide paramilitary riot police force.
What ever your views on property destruction and fighting with police, the stakes are being raised big time at the moment (esp with the excuse of the 'war on terrorism').
That means more than ever people need to consider the effects of their actions and consider them in wider contexts too.
NKOTBB
no one tactic is going to work on its own
16.01.2002 17:59
I think that all of these methods of activism are and have been and will be valid. Global capitalism is a tough nut to crack and we will need many approachs to the issue. However i would say, that the state is no benevolent being who would ever turn around and say "ok then i will go away quietly" Or can be persuaded by logical arguement. If sitting in the road or marching in the streets peacefully ever turned out to on its own be effective the state would stop you. Isnt it better therefore to have people who know how to fight and are willing to, for if the time isnt now then it will be soon. Just as its important that people are keeping alive an idea of peace and working on links with wider groups. I dont think either tactic can be effective on its own, i think that all pushing together in our different ways can be effective. And surely that is the point in places like prauge and genoa of having different marches for different tactics eg. blue route for black bloc, pink and silver for the samba types, pink route for pacifists and trots and yellow for padded types.
sarah.
BLACK DRAGON SPEAKS
17.01.2002 20:24
In Genoa the situation was all black and no bloc. The actions of people seemed to orientate around mindless property damge and fleeing from the police. Virtually every recycling bin in Genoa got torched along with some very obviously working class cars.(Unless Genoa is populated by eccentric CEO´s of big companies who like driving 15 year old Fiat UNo´s on the weekend.) There was an outrageous amount of jibbing it from the so called hardcore.Watching a thousand masked up anarchos flee from forty police to then trash a pet store and a corner shop was pretty humiliating.
Anyway ther point I´m trying to make I suppose is that black bloc tactics can be a valid demonstartion of beliefs, but on the other hand can degenerate into mindless tantrums.
BLACK DRAGON
Surprised
11.05.2002 15:05
Wow. If that's so, you are a fool for wasting your time lambasting protests, Chris. And you've been quite busy at it.
"What will happen to the things you destroy? They'll get rebuilt. While you claim that you're against capitalism, you're making the wheels turn."
If that is so, one could claim that they are supporting workers by creating demand.
"To pay for the things you broke, insurance companies will pay out. The banks or whatever will then pay someone to replace their windows. End result? More glass manufactured. More energy used. More justification for capitalist institutions like insurance. [I'd love to hear you argue out that the concept of insuring is exclusively capitalist.] More pollution, waste, and consumption."
Written like an anti-capitalist. Are you flip-flopping Chris?
"If you claimed to really want to overthrow capitalism, the first question you would ask yourself is "How can I do that?" instead of "How can I express my anger?". News flash: No one cares about you. Life is hard."
Ugh. Where to start? I'll ignore your emotionally laden comments. Firstly, "No one cares"? Again, why are you bothering, Chris? Secondly, "Life is hard"? Yes, it is. It's a crime that it could be considerably easier for billions of people if a more just economic system were in place. But for you, perhaps things are better of the way they are. After all, it gives you something to be smug about.
DJEB