How does taking a selectionof people of who have so many problems to deal with on an individual level explain the neccesities of changing a system which affects billions. If people have personal difficulties that mean their own lifes are hard enough to deal with without thinking about the other aspects of life doesn't mean the other aspect of changing a system doesn't exist.

We would have to get into the philosophy, psychology and sociology of why people in this society get into drugs of a harder nature (Psychology), Why there are so many drugs available in lands where they don't grow naturally and without the education of drugs and lack of community support to aid and help people get of the drugs(Sociology) and how we could create a society which provides more community which could prevent the use of killing ourselves with drugs etc.(Philosophy). Or in between reform the system which allows hard drugs to put through doctors with proper support.

Agreed, it is difficult to consider the massive task of trying to explain the complexities of a new possibility when you have so much on your head. But it is wrong to suggest that the creativity or intelligence doesn't exist in these people if we can through our efforts put in place possibilities which allow for people to put their skills to use. Their are lviing examples of groups who have got themselves together to create a community although not altogether successfully and not their fault (EXODUS). We can of course give up.

Before we get onto why people go onto hard drugs and why they don't seem to care about whats going on......
I wonder what people from these deprived areas think of people like us? (sorry for using words such as we, our, us but i can't think of a better way of putting it)

They might think that we're just people who've had an easy ride and try to fix the world even though we don't have a clue what it's like to live their life.

They might think we're just a bunch of nutters who don't have a chance against the likes of the state, and that we're just wasting our time.

Or they might think we're soft, unpatriotic, arkward bastardscos' cos' they've had too much 'the sun' and 'sky news' rammed down their throats.

How do we get them to realise, that they can feel and have so much better if they come together?

For a start....GET RID OF CORPORATE MEDIA!
Corporate media is what moulds peoples minds....they think they're hearing what they want to hear but they're hearing what the corps tell them they want to hear.

To be continued (at some stage, unless someone would like to continue it for me)

totally agree with 1st point - whilst i am fully in agreement with u guys points when it comes down 2 it u need to convince the ordinary 'working' class people at the bottom of the rungs.

i know cause thats where i come from . i look about the area i grew up and i see 2 kinds of folk those who wanna get on and r interested in gettin the best education, job, money, labels, status whatever u think (+ by the way those folks are not the enemy) and those who dont give a flying f***.

u need 2 find someway 2 include all those folks in the ideas u guys r talkin about otherwise you are never going to get anywhere - its all v.well talkin about psycology and philosophy but without the ordinary person on the street u aint never gonna get anywhere.

u have 2 understand where we r coming from otherwise u r fighting a losing battle

it all depends on what you all call middle class, this class
seems to have developed and grown in the period of peace and developement between the wars. I remember when most of them were 'straights', I used to get stopped just walking down the road, and as soon as i got on me scooter lambretta. got ten producers in one week. I think the difference is that i'm working class, but not ordinary by any means.
I think I can safely say I gave the system as much shit as it gave me, and I am intending a grande finale.
I agree with the author and have often posted comments regarding using the term 'no war but the Class War'
it would be better if we tried to form a movement of activist
consisting of like minded people from across the board.
The opportunists who always try to hijack any party, movement or association need to be kept under control, this is the reason why I like to use the name Luther Blissett, what ever i do is not promoting me as an individual and if we all use the same name we are equal and no one rises to the top,well that's my opinion. As soon as you get a star performer, who then get's invited by the media to represent the movement before you know it he or she is on TV every night spouting bullshit in the name of ... It is obvious that we have to do something to counter the possiblity of putting a lot of work into a new movement just to see it taken over by a small elite group who then impose their will, and sell us out to the establishment.

there are good people out there, which class they come from is not important we need to get them together ..

LB

Is that you PC Perkins, causing trouble on the internet. You'd better get back to the station pronto my son before sarge finds out!

I grew up in a neighbourhood,in another country, but much the same as that described in the first posting -, and now I live in the a part of London were, yeah, i see more rich people - but life for most people ain't that different.
I feel uncomfortable when i read people talking about how to communicate with " those people" as if we are not the people in your everyday lives.
You may have tings to teach us - but we got tings to teach you too!
You middle class activists look around you - there are many sisters and brothers from the working class getting stuff together - either with or without you - if you ain't noticed us - well., maybe you ain't on the same planet as the rest of us poor bastards
You might think there are numerically few of obviously working class activists - but that's because the activist scene is a tiny sliver of the general population
- but check it -
working class people are already in " your " activist scene-

If you ain't sussed that-
well, really, you ought to get out more, daaahling

I grew up in a neighbourhood,in another country, but much the same as that described in the first posting -, and now I live in the a part of London were, yeah, i see more rich people - but life for most people ain't that different.
I feel uncomfortable when i read people talking about how to communicate with " those people" as if we are not the people in your everyday lives.
You may have tings to teach us - but we got tings to teach you too!
You middle class activists look around you - there are many sisters and brothers from the working class getting stuff together - either with or without you - if you ain't noticed us - well., maybe you ain't on the same planet as the rest of us poor bastards
You might think there are numerically few of obviously working class activists - but that's because the activist scene is a tiny sliver of the general population
- but check it -
working class people are already in " your " activist scene-

If you ain't sussed that-
well, really, you ought to get out more, daaahling

Okay a few questions to the original poster:

1. Do you think that middle-classes may be more politicised due to the advantages they enjoy regarding education? And that may be that you observation is just the ineverted snobbery of jealousy?

2. Am I correct in reading between the lines of your "real city life" statement, that you think that the life of any other classes excepting the people at the very bottom of the social ladder is 'unreal'? If so, am I correct in assuming that "middle class" occupies the same denial mechanism for yourself as "paki" does a facist?

Now for a few anecdotal facts:

The class system is not rigid and it is not a safety net:

working class people sometimes go up, and middle class people sometimes go down. Having being brought up in a certain system will lend some traits and characteristics to an individual but to suggest by stereotypes that all middle class people are just ignorant is as stupid as suggesting all working class people are thick which is just as stupid as suggesting that all black people are lazy or all jews are greedy: you see any pattern developing?

Middle class people can be down and out, abused, stitched up, exploited, etc etc etc too. And it may be a shocking fact, but they didn't actually have any choice of being born into whatever social status. I am damn sure if it were possible to choose, very few people would opt for "poor, disadvantaged and digruntled" as opposed to "well-off, well-educated and comfortable"???

I would guess from your insecurities you would be tripping over yourself to tick "rich, exploitative and fuck the poor!"

And how marvelous would it be if the middle classes took no interest in societal problems? Given that many of them may be well situated to help, doesn't it make more sense to accept that they understand the problems and can make a difference? Or do you suggest that we set up concentration camps for anyone who doesn't have scabies and rickets???

I would consider my upbringing to be middle class; I have experienced everything you cited as "real life" and MORE! More than most "working-class people" I am sure.

Sadly, I see people like yourself to be part of the problem and not the solution. If you want easy stereotypes and scapegoats, best trot along to your nearest BNP rep!

Okay a few questions to the original poster:

1. Do you think that middle-classes may be more politicised due to the advantages they enjoy regarding education? And that may be that you observation is just the ineverted snobbery of jealousy?

2. Am I correct in reading between the lines of your "real city life" statement, that you think that the life of any other classes excepting the people at the very bottom of the social ladder is 'unreal'? If so, am I correct in assuming that "middle class" occupies the same denial mechanism for yourself as "paki" does a facist?

Now for a few anecdotal facts:

The class system is not rigid and it is not a safety net:

working class people sometimes go up, and middle class people sometimes go down. Having being brought up in a certain system will lend some traits and characteristics to an individual but to suggest by stereotypes that all middle class people are just ignorant is as stupid as suggesting all working class people are thick which is just as stupid as suggesting that all black people are lazy or all jews are greedy: you see any pattern developing?

Middle class people can be down and out, abused, stitched up, exploited, etc etc etc too. And it may be a shocking fact, but they didn't actually have any choice of being born into whatever social status. I am damn sure if it were possible to choose, very few people would opt for "poor, disadvantaged and digruntled" as opposed to "well-off, well-educated and comfortable"???

I would guess from your insecurities you would be tripping over yourself to tick "rich, exploitative and fuck the poor!"

And how marvelous would it be if the middle classes took no interest in societal problems? Given that many of them may be well situated to help, doesn't it make more sense to accept that they understand the problems and can make a difference? Or do you suggest that we set up concentration camps for anyone who doesn't have scabies and rickets???

I would consider my upbringing to be middle class; I have experienced everything you cited as "real life" and MORE! More than most "working-class people" I am sure.

Sadly, I see people like yourself to be part of the problem and not the solution. If you want easy stereotypes and scapegoats, best trot along to your nearest BNP rep!

Um... can you actually HAVE an "anecdotal fact"? Just goes to show that a middle-class education ain't necessarily the BEST one! There's some seriously patronising comments on this posting; Don't Treat Your Neighbours As Exotic talks the most sense. And, may I add, with the most wit. Chap!

Hm, being anti-authoritarian I would see pretty much all facts as anecdotal... and therefore also view all notions of superiority/inferiority to be oversimplifications.

The distinction I made in that particular "anecdotal" phrase was to denote that the observations were relating to my own life experiences... just in case you have never read much of the English language.

But hey what do I know I am damned by my own upbringing...

I'll leave you with your nice and easy scapegoats and come the revolution I may end up "shooting" at people like you too... metaphorically speaking.

But rest asssured, so long as you keep attacking your oversimplified scapegoats there will never be a revolution.

Guess we reap what we sow?

.......Seems as though the original comment hit a raw nerve, spoilt little fuck!

There are a lot of genuine middle class people of that I know, who really want to make the world a better place. However no matter how hard they try they cannot connect to the working class.
As the 1st poster wrote and I did in my posting last week “if the kids are utd” how do we bridge the gap between middle class activists and the workers. I am working class, as are my mates although they will not associate themselves with the middle class activists.
The reason I think is that although they are genuine, they come across as exclusive and this is their campaign, they know best, they’ve done the studies etc.
Another big problem is the likes of the lecture type postings by mustermann.
Sounds like the typical poor little rich kid. Experienced more real life than most working class?? What is this some sort of competition? I’m worse off than u? Drop it, fuck off.
Too many people I think are involved in this movement to get a kick out of it, no real intention of changing the world and looseing out on their privalaged life. We need to rid ourselves of these free loaders playing at being anarchists and connect with the workers. We the workers can bring the system down.
Who will drive the busses if not the workers,the trains, fix the heating, keep the water flowing, electricity on etc,etc. We do not need educated middle-class wankers with their political theories and philosophies telling us what to do, or analyzing our reasons behind it.
Again this debate is about to drop off the front page, anyone interested in carrying it on and starting a new thread?

this discussion has been continued here:
 http://uk.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=17196&group=webcast