The UK inelligence services have plotted against the (old) labour party since the 1920's. And also the tories under Heath With the advent of new labour I wonder what the situation is now.Thatcher was supposed to have been installed by M15. Blair would appear to in the Thatcher mould and proably worse. I would have thought that he and MI5 would be pretty much in the same camp. As the labour party has moved to the right the SWP would appear to be occupying the space vacated by Old Labour. Which would put them nicely in the sights of MI5/6 unless of course they are part of the scheme.

The plot thickens or wot ? One thing for certain the intelligence services are not working for the good of the people, they like everyone else serve corporates / bankers.

The last post here finishes "If you ask me they are a bunch of fascist that work against people movenments".

Not true comrade. They are not the best thing since sliced bread but your comment that they are fascist is ridiculous. Useless comments like this are just what the rich like. It pits their opposition against itself instead of fighting them.

Maybe you are on their side?

Thanks for pointing out that the SWP are fascists funded by the intelligence services - I'm obviously missing out on something because I haven't received a penny in expenses for the numerous anti-war street stalls, visits to Mosques and leafletting of estates that I've taken part in or helped to organise as an SWP member over the last few weeks. I shall be applying for funding from MI6 forthwith.

Someone asked me at the weekend whether this sort of posting was actually being made by the SWP to show us in a good light - ie organised, with clear arguments and perspective on how to build the movement. The answer is no, but when this sort of rant takes the place of political debate and people prefer to concentrate on how to exclude the SWP rather than building their own anti-war initiatives I can see where they get the idea.

Thanks for pointing out that the SWP are fascists funded by the intelligence services - I'm obviously missing out on something because I haven't received a penny in expenses for the numerous anti-war street stalls, visits to Mosques and leafletting of estates that I've taken part in or helped to organise as an SWP member over the last few weeks. I shall be applying for funding from MI6 forthwith.

Someone asked me at the weekend whether this sort of posting was actually being made by the SWP to show us in a good light - ie organised, with clear arguments and perspective on how to build the movement. The answer is no, but when this sort of rant takes the place of political debate and people prefer to concentrate on how to exclude the SWP rather than building their own anti-war initiatives I can see where they get the idea.

In Germany during the 1930's Russian dictator Joseph Stalin proclaimed that the policy of the SPD (German Socilist Party-by far the largest opposition group to the Nazi's) were 'Social Facists' the German Communist Party (KPD) thus refused to cooperate with Socialists and Trade Unionists of the SPD and called them Facists and 'government spies'! So whilst the left were fighting amongst themselves the Nazi's found it very easy to sweep into power, first on the streets and once the mass opposition was defeated, in Government to.

Our Australian comrades rant is not in the spirit of solidarity that is essential to the sucsess of our movement and is both mis-informed and misguided. To say that the socialist alliance is some sort of spy cover organisation or is intent on dividing the anti capitalist movement is absolute nonsense. The purpose of the socialist alliance is to unite the many disparate but quite frankly very similar groups that exist on the left and welcomes supporters to participate in its democratic and federal structure whether they are part of a marxist group or anti capitalist group or simply as individuals.

I expect the reason why our members have a disposition for asking for votes at meetings is because this is generally assumed to be the most democratic way of making descions. If you don't like it comrade may i suggest that it is you who are expressing anti movemen sentiments. As far as taking details are concerned could it be that this information is used to help organise action in the future?
Besides you don't have to give your details anyway and MI6 and government spies will already have info on most of us already, they can listen to all your phone calls, read your emails, trace your letters etc...as a movement we just have to live with this.

The Anarchist fraternity has many positive aspects which the left can learn from and many socilist groups could gain much from the excellent libertarian critques of power and centralisation espoused in both theory and practise. Unfortunately some Anarchists can also have a down side of rumour, heresay and attacking anyone who favours some sort of organisation or structure. I suggest that our Australian comrade concentrate on the real class enemy and not other socialists.

Just had to get in on this one- some personal subjectivities on the SWP.

In recent months the SWP has increased it's profile under the moniker Globalise Resistance- a somewhat strange phenomena, an anti capitalist group has branded the whole movement and at the same time bullied other groups into the margins whilst trampling all over the gains, ideas and startegies that these other groups have created. The anti-capitalist movement has existed for over a decade in the southern hemisphere and through the work of Peoples Global Action brought it to the fore of activist consciousness and now the general public. Yet the SWP and their co-whorts pay not a single tribute or recognition to struggles and sacrifices made by people that REALLY understand the issues of globalisation. They just hi-jack and infilitrate- rather like a virus. And there is still the issue of police collaboration surrounding the arrest of white overall activists in Brighton the other week. And rememer they are nothing but a government in waiting that will punish anyone that strays from the party line-just like any other "democratic" party. And I was at a "Stop The War" meeting recently in London, organised by the SWP and I saw the SWP chair carry votes that weren't counted, not allow individuals to speak against motions bacause they "didn't represent a group", decide a steering committe based on their own members, without opening it up to the floor to even nominate, let alone vote. The SWP is an anachronistic parasite that can't even realise why socialism has failed- it treats people as statistics and fails to recognise and respeond to individual needs- which is a major reason Hitler swung the vote- he appealed to the personal (but ending up playing on peoples' fears and paranoias). They are NOT democratic and exist as a centralised monolith that promotes nothing but shared poverty. Wake up!! Marx don't cut it any more, we need more personal and sophisticated analysis. The point is not to change- the parts we're working with are all fucked. We need to create. We need a thorough revaluation of our values and our relationship to the planet and ALL species. An affirative social ecology if you will. We need to start taking leaps instead of cowardly stumbles in the dark.

Where exactly are you coming from? Sorry if I’ve misunderstood, but you seem to be suggesting we learn from Hitler, and that socialism promotes “shared poverty” – as opposed to good old-fashioned free enterprise?

Just two questions.

1) What is worse - American imperialism or the SWP?
2) If all the alleged crimes of the SWP are true, how come so many people join them and read their paper to enable them to "bully" and "marginalise" everyone else. Are they all stupid or just gullible?

Oh, and on police collaboration perhaps it’s best not mention the ease with which the police infiltrated and manipulated the black bloc in Genoa.

Well said xxxx above.
One the things I've always found disturbing about the SWP and their Globalise Resistance vehicle is social amnesia they promote when it comes to events and groups that formed the core of the anti-capitalst movement before they decided to jump on board at the end of Novemebr 1999. It's just airbrushed out of history as if it never happened.

In response, all that trots such as 'amused' above can only offer is distortions and false choices between "American Imperialism and the SWP" -when instead what we neede to be doing is developing meaningfull forms of political activity.

The SWP like all forms of bolshevism essentially are only revolutionary on the level of rhetoric, of the spectacle, the political show. They loudly parade their miltant deeds such as selling outside mosques, factories and on marches, so they can disparage others. But they singularly fail to challange capitalist social relations in any direct form - either personally or collectively. Instead they simply seek to accumulate capital - funding and recruits for the party machine. In essense they are parasitic on the real struggles of our movement.

However what I find really worrying is, that through massive distribution of placards, posters and papers they can make it appear to people who are not already linked to the movement that they are somehow the driving force behind what's happening.

This can only inhibit communication between the different groups in stuggle and impede our progress. For example the samba action on last saturday's CND demo in London was attributed to Globalise resistence by on Indymedia, apparently because some onetold the reporter that's who we were.

How does the SWP impose censorship? It tells anyone that criticises it that they are dividing the movement and undermining it. No-one can challenge them and everyone has to obey the leadership. Now, what were you saying about fascism, 'commie bastard'?

It has come to my attention over the last year or two that the SWP has a constant an unbending definition for sectarian. This is : an idea or ideology that an individual or group recognises as an important principle and one which cannot be sold out on, which is contrary to the teachings of the SWP elite, or their particular take on Marx, Engels etc. Not really a dictionary definition, but this is my experience of this.

Thus, anarchists are sectarian because they won't vote for them - the SWP/SA whatever front they put up. The SLP (stalinists) are sectarian because they stood candidates in the same places as the Socialist Alliance - even though one is pretty radical, and the other simply reformist.

People! Stick to your principles! And a big up to libertarian struggle!

Just a few comments on the S.A. in Australia.They are doing the same here(as indeed are their constituant parts-ISO,DSP et al) as happens in the UK. In fact they are a carbon copy of their unimaginative Anglo parents in every way. Unfortunately it is true from my and MANY other (all?) activists' experience that they won't support and will even sabotage campaigns and movements that they can't control.This simply puts them as enemies of the people,and more specifically of the working people who are trying to organise against this system out of neccessity.There are many instances of them taking over resources that have been hard won by a wide section of active people and using them for their own aims.Interesting that down here the buzzword of the authoritarian Left at the moment is "sectarianism"-which means :those who disagree with us,or hold us to account for our dirty tricks in meetings (stacking/stalling/sabbing/) and in the wider community (claiming sole and absolute responsibility for each and every 'successful' protest/campaign). It is an important time for those who have been left behind by history and by the very people they would lead. Their desire and need for control over the current movement is simole to understand when one sees it as a last act of desperation for a dead method. I hope their new members survive their lies and their selective view of working class history, (where the working class are too stupid to think and act without direction and therefore need a strong centralised Party that will keep them working and not give them too much of a taste of the possibilities that a true revolution in life would offer) Their 'vision' of a workers' paradise sounds much like the world we live in now, except I imagine a fetish for the colour red would be a dominant element.For a true socialism.

Just to clarify a few issues, the Socialist Alliance is not the SWP but a federal organisation of many different groups, trade unions and individual socialists including many who would call themselves libertarian socialists. Many of the comments targetted toward the SWP have some truth and there is no doubt that the tired tactics of Trotskyism are both banal and can damage a grassroots movement however, apart from a few examples in history anarchism has abjectively failed to organise a sucesful mass movement amongst working class communities. The period of greatest sucsess was during the 1920's when Syndicalism took hold of the French and Spanish Trade Unions and held considerable influence over the Miners Federation in the UK. In modern capitalist society however anarchisms main proponents have been middle class intellectuals, students, and those on the margins of society; punks, travellers, hippies etc. There contribution to the movement has been a successful one but the vast majority of ordinary working people have not taken up the cry of Kropotkin. The Trade Union movement in the UK is heavily influenced by socialist principles and it is by working with socialists in the wider community that will allow radical ideas and movements to grow. We do need to organise mass unions and a strong political culture to oppose the lies of the ruling class. This as far as i can see can only be done by building a mass political party of ordinary people. This must not be dominated by one organisation because if it is it will fail. The point of the Socialist Alliance is to build such a broad church movement. Whether the SWP are truly commited to the SA or are only interested if they can control it only time will tell. IF they do use it as a front organisation it will like the SLP fail to tap into the wider struggle. My appeal is for libertarians to work with us when you agree and do your own thing when you don't. As far as i'm concerned all anarchists and socialists are my allies and i truly believe that we must stop fighting amongst ourselves and get on with attacking the capitalist system.