Don't vote! It only encourages them

"Tactical voting is not a bad idea, described as 'when a voter misrepresents his or her sincere preferences in order to prevent the worst possible outcome' but this active participation will still lend a certain credence to the system."

Voting for a pro-indepence party in Scotland ( SNP, Solidarity, SSP, Scottish Greens) does not lend creedence to the system. It is probably the best way to end the system.

Sure, it will be replaced by a new system, but there will be no more British Army, no more British State. I am an anarchist but that has to be something worth voting against. And the new system will be smaller and easier to break down again.

Vote no more Scottish cannon-fodder in resource wars that only enrich an Anglo-American elite.
Don't not do other things just because you voted though. But don't not vote just because you do other things - not this time. Vote for Iraq.

"the most obvious form of protest is not to vote at all..."

Not voting is not a form of protest - unless you're going to do something concrete instead of voting, nobody can tell you're protesting rather than just sitting in front of the TV.

Unless you're going to protest actively, you might as well vote, even if you know your candidate won't win. That way at least you register your dissent.

Sitting at home is not a form of protest.

surely spoiling your ballot shows you're using your so called voice but disagreeing? surely this would be a better for of dissent? at least you're using something so many dont.

"Sitting at home is not a form of protest."

neither is participating in their system. if you want to get back control of your life and the society around you, do it. don't pretend that by giving the politicians the satisfaction of your vote you've done anything.

Yes, I agree our democracy is a sham, I'm ashamed of our government, I will be voting Nobody. But I'm going to do so in a way that can't be dismissed as apathy and disinterest. Apathy is the logicial result - the desired aim - of the last few decades of politics in this country, but it is different from protest, conscious objection. It's worth sending that message to the politicians by spoiling your vote, even if in some constituencies the figure isn't revealed. The percentage of people who voted in the last elections is hardly an easy statistic to come across either (In 2005 Blair was voted in by just 21.8% of the overall electorate)

Spoil your vote and then ask how many others did - shout rather than turning your back because unfortunately none of us can just walk away.

Thought you might like to make use of this poster that I knocked together.

The attached image is just a preview - a high-quality printer friendly PDF version is available at:

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/04/368252.html

Should I vote when the BNP are standing in my area?

Should I vote for RESPECT?

Yeah, I used to put VOTE NOBODY posters up all over the place BUT where has it got us? Even further from 'Direct Democracy'!

Nobody seems prepared to point the finger at the fundamental reason why Democracy has failed - YOU. Without at least weekly personal involvement, democracy will always be hijacked by the forces of greed and darkness (am I allowed to use the words Bilderbuggars, Trilateral Commission, CFR, TABD, Zionism, AIPAC, OECD without getting censored here? I doubt it...)

Take the time to examine the past records of recent politicians in power - who in your eyes has done what they said they were going to do for benefit of the majority? Precious few, IMO.

Galloway, Meacher, Short, Flynn, the late lamented (murdered?) Cook, who else?

Of them all, it would seem only Galloway has shown the courage of his convictions AND come out squeaky-clean from the Oil-for-food scandal 'they' tried to lay on him both sides of the Atlantic

SO - either vote Respect, Green or stand yourself as an independent

How about Brian Haw for PM?

Well, we can dream of true justice even if we cannot produce it.

Another related thought - SOCPA is trying to put an end to protest, so forget protest and come to the centres of power as Tourists (complete with cameras and videos) - NO slogans, NO placards, NO chanting, NO confrontation, just Tourism (so VERY good for 'business'!) - how about pre-election week?

If enough INDIVIDUALS came in the same week, these 'centres' would become so clogged with bodies, the psycopaths in power would be unable to reach their offices or Parliament, stuck in vast traffic jams, video'd left right and centre - hmm? Two or three million Brian Haws are what's needed to stop this appalling exponential slide into fascism.

Not voting at all will just increase the speed of this ongoing nightmare...

pdf of an anti-election leaflet for wales:  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2007/04/367041.pdf

Lots more info on the site.

We are supposed to endorse a group of people who's only ligitimacy comes from a four yearly vote. From this they say that it is up to them to control many areas of our communites and lives and that if questions are asked they you get locked up on some sort of ASBO or something.

A system of representation will never give us ull the ability to create our own destinies and in the end only promotes the interested of one particular group, namely white upper class men. By it's nature repreentation denies minorities of thier rights becasue it is for the party to act in the interests of the many not the few. This system denies us of any for of free expression becasue the only for of expression considered normal is that of what the white upper class men tell us.

Give us back our liberties becasue I will not give my consent to a government who show no accountability.

I have a bit of a problem with the no voting attitude, it's really hard to put the terms up right, but this is how i see it.
Of course no fundamental change is going to happen by voting alone, the premises of our system will remain the same. If the BNP get elected, the life of an ordinary white anglo-saxon will remain almost unchanged, but there will be a massive difference to anyone who doesn't fall into this category.

On the other hand, if the Green party will get elected, there will be little difference to people's lives, but we can assume (i'm using a bit of imagination here) that they will stop the on going war, and somewhat reduce pollution.
This of course in insufficient, as what we should demand is an end to all wars, not just T.W.A.T, and we should be demanding an end to all pollution, not just a reduction, with that in mind, I would still much rather have this than any other government on offer.

Now I know that the actual choices are between lab/con, that's how is allways been, but voting for the greens/loonies is somewhat of a way to register, if not dissent, than at least some sort of discontent with government policy. it's not as much of a statement as say, a DA, it's not a step towards direct democracy, it's not a radical change that we so desperately need, but it is ... something.

Not voting is not a political statement, most people don't vote, not because they feel strongly about the failure of the democratic state, but because they don't care that much, they'd rather be passive observers. by not voting you aren't making a statement about the irrelevancy of representative democracy, you just get counted in the lines of those who don't care much.

another point is, that when "The revolution" comes, and there is a change in government, it is likely to be in the form of an elected government, rather than that of a military cue, it will just be an upsarge of voting rallying behind a given contestent, as happened in say Venezuela. What's stoping a canidate from decentralising the power base? a canidate for PM can still be an Anarchist, if by being elected she would denounce the role of a leader and set up a "system" of local direct democracies, in a decentralised form, independent of the market the US and what not. of course after that she would have no power, but that's the point isn't it?

In conclusion, I will be voting in the coming election, but I won't delude myself into thinking that this action alone would make any noticable difference, just a scratch on the surface, but in addition to lots of other actions and in the right context, can help bring about the change we so desprately desire

Even if it is just this once.

Do you want to gag on your porridge yet again as the spin doctors turn a ruling minority (per capita) into a leading majority (per turn out)?

And have you forgot the eye-wateringly hilarious footage of Portillo getting sacked by the ballot or Reg Keys verbally tearing Blair an new arsehole (not a new John Reid)? If more people had turned out at Sedgfield, Blair could have been kicked straight out of office. How may of the dozens of petitions for impeachment are likely to achieve that?

Negative voting diminishes the claims of these gravy train fare dodgers to be representing the people. This in turn damages their ability to attract corporate sponsorship and much more importantly brings us closer to the Weimar Republic-style hung system we need in order to wipe the slate and start anew.

This is especially important in regards to the impending elections in Scotland. Polls already indicate that the SNP (a mainstream party with aspirations to independence from the UK; not racist like BNP) are going to take power from NewLabour. As is stands they may need to do a lot of deals with the LibDems to pull it off, but with a good turn out Scotland may be able to get rid these shits forever. Who knows, we may even see the return of an independent Labour party run by the Unions for the workers... I can but dream.

New Labour are shitting themselves at what is going to happen to them in Scotland. They are throwing so much shit and spin at potential SNP voters it''s become pathetic to the point of embarrassment. The Daily Rangers (Record) being the biggest jokers in the pack.

I'm an anarchist. I hate this system with a vengeance. I'll never forget the day I stood in front of a classroom of East German kids and had to tell them that we don't really have a true democracy in the UK.

To bang on and repeat myself:

Votes are the oxygen of politicians. They need them to survive. So long as you boycott the system they can happily keep pointing to their "majority" as proof of their legitimacy. Every negative vote is another particle of carbon monoxide in their blood.

Even if you don't have a suitable 3rd contender, then vote for the Campaign for Free Parking or Monster Raving Loony Party as a protest, it'll HURT these people on the only level they feel any pain.

"Democracy is supposed to be 'rule by the People' but there are huge areas in the UK system of government where the People have absolutely no say at all...
So what are you allowed to vote for? A strictly limited set of policies contained in a party manifesto...
Successive Prime Ministers act as serial dictators...
In our bipartite parliamentary system, just two, almost identical, political parties..."

The article is just focused on the UK Government elections. Now except in Wales (all power to the Welsh campaign) these are elections for the local council. Not the one where there are serial dictators Prime Ministers who claim power they just don't have. The one where you get the person in your ward who is the one who will then be able to speak up not to get some crappy building put up, or a good one demolished. The one where you get the people who can help get funding for a community centre or will oppose it coming to your area because it will bring 'undesirables'. Hell they could even stop the council evicting a squatted council building.

And it's not bipartate here:- There are too many Lib Dem councils for a start. There are too many BNP councillors who can use it as a lever for legitimacy. There are also lots of Independents elected, usually local people representing their ward. The Greens actually manage to make a difference within Local Councils too. Masses of wards change control at elections and so do lots of councils. It's not great local councils have far less power than they should, and not actually representative, but on what they can do it's noticeable and even possibly politics that can involve people.

Your choice really here. Principled position absolutely no one will notice and a clear concience, or a tactical vote that could make a local difference. Maybe it depends on your ward.

"Now except in Wales (all power to the Welsh campaign) these are elections for the local council."

And the Scottish parliament too. I think the importance of this is lost on some English people. Say, as seems likely, a pro-independence government is elected in Scotland, committted to evicting Trident and bringing Scottish troops home from foriegn wars. Just at the moment Gordon Brown, a Scottish MP, becomes primeminister of the UK. It would scupper his plans completely. It might not be the Scots who end the union, it may be the English. Also, assuming an independence referendum is successful think through the wider implications - no Scottish MPs at Westminster so no more Labour governments, no British army fighting foreign resource wars, probably no English seat on the UN security council, no MI5 in Scotland, anyone resident in Scotland being allowed to choose to be Scottish or not. Thatcher called Scotland the last socialist country in Europe after Albania, even the SNPs worst enemies wouldn't accuse them of being racist, in Europe they sit with the Greens in the European Free Alliance.

I am surprised and disappointed that there isn't a similar push for independence in Wales but I notice not one Scottish anarchist here has recommended not voting in this election.

"I notice not one Scottish anarchist here has recommended not voting in this election."

I know several literally champing at the bit to vote SNP with the hope of kicking those NewLabour bastards right back to Westminster.

And when anarchists get excited about a national election, you know it's got to be more than the usual Changing of the Chumps going on:

First dump both Tory parties THEN after independence ditch SNP for more progressive people: total tactical logic.

This is the most seriously close we have got to home rule since the 1970s, when MI5 cooked the books on North Sea Oil to make it look like we were a bunch of beggars. And that stupid leaflet NewLabour have been spamming us with is more of the old tricks.

However, The Sunday Herald (once upon a time the paper of educated centre left) online poll has SNP at 84%... seems a little bit incredible, but if it's even 66% true, then McConnell's arse will appear round these parts less frequently than Haley's Comet.

 http://www.sundayherald.com/

Boycott Oil
Stop Working
Stop Paying Tax
Stop paying your Mortgage

Hit them Where it hurts

no_body

"First dump both Tory parties THEN after independence ditch SNP for more progressive people: total tactical logic."

So have you been helping your local SNP candidates ? Cos if you haven't you still have a week left to volunteer and they would probably appreciate it, it will be a busy week. And if you have't put your name down anywhere linking you to the SNP then there are other ways anarchists can help...it is easier taking posters down than putting them up you know. And say you took down a Labour party poster, and then put it up again three weeks after the election, and then reported them to the police - is that as immoral as invading Iraq without a mandate ?

"This is the most seriously close we have got to home rule since the 1970s, when MI5 cooked the books on North Sea Oil to make it look like we were a bunch of beggars. And that stupid leaflet NewLabour have been spamming us with is more of the old tricks."

"The oil will run out in 1982" is one lie I woldn't pin on MI5, that was definitely the Labour government. I was just looking for the FOI documents that showed they deliberately lied about that to weaken the 1979 referendum but I can't find them on the web. Plus c'est la meme chose, plus ça change, as William Wallace would have said. Scotland still has 17% of Europes oil reserves - the only thing we'd have to fear is a US invasion. We seem to have all of Europes wind-power reserves, and most of the fresh water. I actually haven't seen any Labour propaganda where I live. The only visible party is the SNP. And what I hear on doorsteps is ' I used to vote for a socialist party called labour but...'

And for our soon-to-be-foriegn audience, just so you know, a majority of voters voted 'For' Independence in 1979 - and what did you give us ? Thatcher. You can see why we are getting a bit gleeful at the prospect of leaving you lot in a perpetual Tory government. We are just looking forward to opposing a nuclear-free, non-Nato, independent state. And I think since we've been paying for Trident too, and taking all the risks, you should leave us one or two of the subs to disarm.

The SNP are the most pragmatic choice, but any independent party vote would be appreciated. Tha does not include the Lib Dems, Tories, or Labour who are plotting to scupper independence through lies and intrigue that could backfire violently.

Forgive the paraphrasing of Cassius Clay but you get my drift.


Secret papers show oil cash fears
 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4661584.stm#

"Progress towards devolution should be delayed for as long as possible, consistent with honouring the government's commitment to move down the devolution route and containing the SNP lobby in parliament."

"The Scots have really got us over a barrel here. The prospects for a separate English, Welsh and Ulster economy on the same assumption must look pretty grim."

The actual report was far less watered down than the BRITISH broadcasting corporation would report.

This is an open invitation to all anarchists in Europe or anyone eligible to live here under the current draconian restrictions. If a pro-independence party wins power in Scotland, move here, register to vote, vote for independence in a referendum, choose to be Scottish and you can stay at my house until then or we'll show you how to get somewhere habitable.

And you will know you have played your part in killing the British state.

"The Sunday Herald (once upon a time the paper of educated centre left) online poll has SNP at 84%"

If only. You may not have noticed but you can vote more than once on the SHs online polls. And like most polls, if you don't care for an issue you are unlikely to vote at all. The Sunday Herald forum first noticed this when I pointed out that a poll about whether to attack Iraq or not changed from 76% pacifist to 84% war-mongering overnight. It was the night a pro-war US neo-con adverising exec joined us. Shortly before I developed software to identify anonymous posters, shortly before the paper was bought by Gannnet - the owners of USA Today, shortly before the editor left for The Age in Australia, shortly before the forum was folded by George Robertsons Labour dirty tricks. Now there is a story, but I've told it before.

The true opinion polls have Labour three or four points behind the SNP. Scotlands electoral system virtually guarantees a coalition government, at present that is the LibLab pact. I have previously mentioned lots of people who are going to vote for the SNP don't yet intending voting for Independence. I should also add that perhaps more surprisingly, lots of people who don't intend voting for one of the pro-independence parties do claim that they would vote for Independence in a referendum. I even had one guy who claimed his first party were Labour, his second party was the Tories, and he would vote for independence - but at that point you have to suspect having the pish taken out of you.

I used to go down to Faslane and there would regularly be SNP, Green and SSP leaders on the speaking list at demos, along with all the anti-Trident parties. And there would always be some sad old anarchist in the crowd heckling, shouting out 'All parties are the same'. But if that was true why did only some parties care to brave a hostile crowd ? I found an SNP badge on the ground, put it on, got slagged rotten, and now the MoD are planning to shut Falsane down +in case+ of independence. Just the threat of it is enough.

Labour are trying to scare us with the threat of the job losses at Faslane. Big fucking deal. Nobody cares about those jobs, we want the jobs back that Thatcher stole. Half the people who work there are black-ashamed to do so. And the other half are English. So Tony Blair suddenly hails from Govan. And his old auntie used to live in this Glasgow street or that. Sending Blair north of the border is a virtual guarantor of independence.

I'm sorry for hijacking this thread. Good luck to you in England voting no one, you have no one worth voting for. It's not too late to move north you know. Shame on you in Wales though but you'll soon follow us out of the union when you see it is safe.

Just a final flippant aside, (feel free to hide this ) have IM-UK thought about the renaming issues involved when there isn't a UK ?

I personally never post on IM Scotland, it seems parochial just now. However, once you become IM-Eng&Wales or whatever you care to call yourselves, I promise never to post here again. Now that has to be a good reason to support the Scots indepence campaign.

You do know that when Trident gets sent to England or Wales we will come down to support you in opposing it, don't you ? And it is environmentally friendly for you too, nearer to travel to protest. it might even make your nations a bit less pro-nuclear when the subs are in your city.

Been trying hard to locate it too:

This blog


 http://scot-land.blogspot.com/2005_12_01_archive.html

Links to these

This one appears to have been (re)moved

 http://www.snp.org/snpnews/2005/snp_press_release.2005-12-29.4205456390


And this one redirects to the index page

 http://www.theherald.co.uk/53346.shtml

I guess the Independent was deemd to marginal to get D-Noticed... or noticed at all:

 http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article331945.ece

The BBC link is still there:

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4567138.stm

Here's a HANSARD relating:

 http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2006-06-06b.119.0&s=speaker%3A10525

Here's a lengthy piece from the good old, leaky Scotsman:

 http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=2469632005

A good story is probably lurking amongst that lot. But unfortunately I haven't the time today to do such myself.

Been trying hard to locate it too:

This blog


 http://scot-land.blogspot.com/2005_12_01_archive.html

Links to these

This one appears to have been (re)moved

 http://www.snp.org/snpnews/2005/snp_press_release.2005-12-29.4205456390


And this one redirects to the index page

 http://www.theherald.co.uk/53346.shtml

I guess the Independent was deemd to marginal to get D-Noticed... or noticed at all:

 http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article331945.ece

The BBC link is still there:

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4567138.stm

Here's a HANSARD relating:

 http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2006-06-06b.119.0&s=speaker%3A10525

Here's a lengthy piece from the good old, leaky Scotsman:

 http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=2469632005

A good story is probably lurking amongst that lot. But unfortunately I haven't the time today to do such myself.

This will be the story that was on the end of the dead-end SNP link:

 http://www.snp.org/press-releases/2005/snp_press_release.2005-12-29.4205456390/

The blogger seems to have just miscopied it.

I vote because I know that a great many people died to allow me that right (don't forget it wasn't just women who couldn't vote, but also poor people, younger people, black people.... a lot of people!) I feel that to not vote is to disrespect those who suffered so much.

Also, I disagree with the idea that not voting is a form of protest. It isn't - it just makes you entirely invisible.

If you want to protest you need to engage - either vote for people whose views are closest to yours, or stand up and make yourself known so that others can vote for you.

dont vote? what a load of bollocks. the knob who posted this article may as well go and live in a totalitaran state. he thinks about poltics but is clealry not very good at it so should stop posting nonsense. even if you dont like the parties, you use your vote to send a message. the far right make gains on the idiocy of the left who are too "activist" to to vote and not counter them.

"Dozens of prominent scientists are to make a public declaration on Saturday that it is in the interest of science for Scotland to remain part of the UK, it has emerged. The move was disclosed by Chancellor Gordon Brown who said the scientists included Dolly the Sheep creator Professor Ian Wilmut. The Chancellor said the 61 scientists were putting their names to the declaration saying Scotland was one of the most inventive countries in the world and had produced some of the greatest scientists"

This is another of my seemingly mad but true stories. I have typed this out before but I don't think on IM. Before BSE, certainly before Dolly the cloned sheep, I was given a job interview at the Roslyn Institute. Now Roslyn is a wierd place to begin with, even before The Holy Grail or whatever it was called came out. It just looks like the place 'Wickerman' should have been set.

So I turn up on a hot sumer day, dressed in a suit and tie, and I am sweating to begin with, it was hard to locate. I am perfectly qualified for the job, and the pay isn't great, it is just hot. I am a corporate whore but a vegan at the time. And so I walk into the lobby. And the flipchart there announces a seminar on 'ChickBrain Plasticisty'. I still don't know what that means thankfully. So I get sent from reception down a standard corridor. Except the corridor is lined with barely dressed teenagers. Boys sitting in their pants, sweating, girls with bras and pants, all scowling. Yooung workers. I have a heavy wool suit on. I sweat some more. I reach the office I was directed to.

Then I am facing a standard three-man civil service interview board. Except these three are the scruffiest 'mad scientist' types you have ever seen, if they were just scatty science teachers at school then they would have been suspended. Dishevelled cardigans, messy hair, the odd tie popping out. Professor Wilmut was the main interviewer. And I start getting asked about my computer skills, but in a way that quickly indictes that they know nothing about PCs. I doubt any of the panel had ever used a PC at that point.

I ask what the job is meant to consist of. There are two separate roles. One, is to provide a database of every bulls DNA in the UK. Remember, this is just months before BSE became known. The second function was to programmme software to an automated test device, which would set down some sort of instruments into a 10 by 10 dimple tray containing chick brains.

My one question to the panel was ' So every time I make one programming mistake another hundred chicks have to die ?'
'Well basically yes- you can programme competently though can't you ?' This is just before Dolly remember.

It was like being in the middle of a horror movie, like I said. My face must have been a picture. You sometimes get freaked at job interviews but at that one I was looking for windows to jump out of. Oddly enough I was offered the job. I don't know how many chicks the programmer who eventually took that job had killed through typo's, or how many bulls he catalogued. Or the wider implications in retrospect.

I am writing this obviously to rubbish these 61 unionist-scientitsts political competency. We have more than 61 scientists in Scotland. I know this sounds mad, but it is honest, I have led an unsual life, although that was perhaps the strangest of my days.

danny should write a book about his fascinating life as a revolutionary anarchist

i love reading indymedia with all its wonderful characters

the fundamental problem still remains in the shape of numerous tensions:

1. the parties available to vote on behalf of are unlikely to represent anything like the full range of political choices - that is, the choice of policies and thinking that informs such policies is circumscribed ahead of time, and we all know what that means when it comes to the Lab and Con candidates: more of the same BS, regardless of who gets in.

2. spoiling one's ballot is no longer a particularly viable protest anymore, quite simply because many constituencies just don't count them and a protest without some form of "publicity"/public awareness is merely a misplaced act of self-indulgence. Spoiling ballot papers used to be a genuine option, but parties put a stop to that option.

3. not voting seems like a good idea - in theory. In practice, it is far too open to multiple interpretations to be a clear and direct message of political dissatisfaction. It could reflect laziness on the part of the electorate, and while the Lab spinners like to wring their hands and talk passionately about the disaffection of the electorate, the simple fact of the matter is that although the "democratic" (sic) base declines, it becomes easier for politicos to push through policies and to not be accountable. Moreover, not voting could be a protest, but it could also be because there was something compelling on TV or that someone just had to do their patriotic duty and go shopping (which, let's be honest, is a vote for the existing status quo anyway).

4. not voting can also let through more blatant nasties like the BNP (the Lab and Cons are nasties too, they just obscure their nastiness better), so in fact could be quite a retrograde step.

5. voting Green or Respect or even the Monster Loonies of Midsommer (??) is probably the best route to go on reflection. I actually would vote Green anyway because they are the only party with a clear and sensible plan for mitigating the assault on our common planet our species perpetuates, and reducing social injustice. The Greens have been working through their manifestos since the 70's and although many of their ideas were untested at the time, once these have been adopted by the grey parties they have been found to work (waste reduction strategies, broad-based consultation, etc.). Moreover, the Greens have promised Proportional Representation which would open the door for a more vibrant democracy. So, Greens are not a bad vote at all.

6. so what to do? My intent will be to vote Greens. However, it may be worthwhile to encourage your local Green group or Respect chapter to field a candidate, and regardless of whether or not you regard yourself as an anarchist, the fact of the matter is that a non-hierarchical system is not likely to evolve/emerge within the next decade unless we give up the pretense of playing by their rules and seek to literally overthrow the government. I suspect that Blair and his necrotising cronies are already aware of this, hence the evisceration of civil liberties and various rights of protest. It would also take a lot more popular support (actually, interest!) from the British masses to stage a coup rather than going out to get pissed or buy a new range of designer gear or get sucked up into a football match. So far, that interest is just not there, except for whatever the right-wing reactionary crap of the hour that is spewed out by the Sun that masquerades as political analysis in between the salacious gossip of celeb suck and bare titties.

I conclude that there are no clear solutions really. The overthrowing of a non-representative, criminally liable, deceitful autocracy gets my vote ... but that ain't on the ballot slip. So, trying to play by the rules of the system (again, albeit always hoping for a different outcome) while our planet dies ... our choices are limited. But, out of these very limited choices, I am inclined to suggest that not voting is not going to send any clear message and actually is likely to have a number of negative side-effects and spoiling the ballot paper isn't likely to get any clear message out either, but will simply be thrown away. That leaves voting - so choose your candidate very carefully and make yours a tactical vote - even if you don't like the party, let's face it, we probably will like the Lab, the Cons, and the BNP less than almost anyone else. So just vote for the anyone other than the candidate for Lab, Con, or BNP. Under this system of crippled democracy, these are - as far as I can tell - the best choices we have if we are going to continue playing by their rules.

But, if we aren't going to play by their rules anymore ... well, then all bets are off!!

Voting green will surely be taken as permission from the electorate for a right-wing government to raise taxes for consumers (but not industry), and that will affect the less well off the most – thus creating more inequality, crime etc…

Our voting system relies on the most despondent not to vote. Think about it. If the anarchists, the socialists and the greens formed a coalition for just 10 years we could change the world forever. Blair, Cameron, the lot of them certainly don’t want you to vote for George Galloway’s coalition because it includes anarchists, socialists and greens who realise we have to get together sooner or later.

Respect are the biggest threat to neo-liberalism today. Join forces with other in your area. Form a unity coalition and change the world. Another world is possible.

 http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2003-03-18&number=117&display=allvotes

If anyone who voted 'No' is still standing (anywhere) vote against them and encourage others to do so!

Fuck your principals. This is a rare opportune moment to make a real difference by voting.

A 10% swing since 2003 - mmm, I wonder what happened in 2003 ? People in Scotland used to vote Labour out of habit and out of principle. Now Labour have been shown to have no principles, people here have broken that habit. It is illegal to spraypaint the word 'Iraq' outside polling booths. It is perfectly legal to chalk it in big letters on the pavement.

8% Lead for Nationalists - 10% swing to Salmond - 20% of Labour seats lost

"LABOUR'S GRIP on Scotland appeared to be slipping away last night after a new superpoll found the party was set to lose an election in the country for the first time in half a century. The new YouGov survey, which is the biggest sample of opinion taken since the campaign began, found the SNP to be 8% ahead of Labour in constituencies and 5% ahead in the regional list vote. The 10% swing from Labour to the Nationalists since 2003 would install Alex Salmond as first minister and unseat some of Labour's most senior MSPs, including health minister Andy Kerr."

The SPGB case for this election campaign can be viewed at: www.arevolutionaryact.blogspot.com - being the personal blog of the Party's candidate in the Monkton, South Tyneside borough elections

..how many Scottish people will support the SNP in protest to NuLabour rather than a genuine desire for nationalism?

If most Scottish people are not nationalists then true democracy should not allow the break up of the union. Should it, Danny?

Does that anomaly offend your deeply held principles about democracy? Or is your definition of democracy entirely subjective like your definition of pacifism.
…

Nimby Danny sat on the fence
Nimby Danny made little sense
All the Scotts voters
and all of their friends
wouldn’t get Danny
to make an amends.

"The SNP will probably win but how many Scottish people will support the SNP in protest to NuLabour rather than a genuine desire for nationalism?"

Quite a few, as I'd been writing here.

"If most Scottish people are not nationalists then true democracy should not allow the break up of the union. Should it, Danny?"

You misunderstand. All the pro-independence parties are committed to a referendum on independence. So if a majority don't want it they won't get it. Besides, a majority of the British public do want Scottish independence - more English people want it than Scots ! And more English people when they are misruled by a Scottish PM with far worse government and conditions than in Scotland.

"Does that anomaly offend your deeply held principles about democracy? Or is your definition of democracy entirely subjective like your definition of pacifism."

No, it just confirms you as bad a reader as you are a writer.


"Nimby Danny sat on the fence
Nimby Danny made little sense
All the Scotts voters
and all of their friends
wouldn’t get Danny
to make an amends. "

Scots or Scottish but not Scotts. Scott is a boys name. And it show be 'to make amends' not 'make an amends'. Oh the shame of being corrected on your English by a Scot - I blame your education system.

’s e caractar a bh’ ann gun teagamh chairdean. Thig ar latha, fien-riaghladh ,cuiridh mi luchd-ceannach thugad airson do mhuilt. Mar sin leibh

It +was+ perfectly legal to chalk on the pavements when I were a lad. People made an art out of it.
I forgot though we'd all been transported back to 1940's Germany. Two Welsh girls have just been fined £80 for chalking rainbows and love hearts on a pavement. I am unsure about the legality of chalk painting under Scottishh law. If it is an £80 fine for chalking love hearts and you can't afford £80, you may as well just spray-paint 'Murder the fucked-up Furher Blair', or a love heart or rainbow or whatever you prefer. and take your chances. The only crime is being caught - you can sell it in Sothebys to the elite if you get away with it.

“..show be…”?

Oh the shame..!

Never flame someones spelling or grammar with a spelling and grammar checker of your own. Still, Emigre, I am shamed on your behalf at your shame on my behalf. It is almost enough to make me want to learn Gaelic even after all the bad things you said about Basque being misused.

I'll teach you some - Donny means 'Ruler of the World', which is probably where Roald Dahl got the best book-title ever, 'Danny, Champion of the World'.

Don't you think it is interesting that more English want Scots independence than Scots do ? I could have taken the huff with that fact but I admire them for their judgement, in that way ( and that way only ) I am more typically English than Reader.

There is a lowland Scots word called English too. It is a strong insult so is used rarely and mildly. It means someone who is over-competitive or over-aggresive.
As in, when someone cheats at a game, and they seem placid, you may insult them by saying : 'You are being just a wee bit English there, ye ken'.

Did you ever wonder why Scots have so many insulting words ? We have more words for idiot than the Inuit have words for snow. Any dunderheid could figure out why !

"with a spelling and grammar checker of your own"
should be "without a spelling and grammar checker of your own". I do without one to improve my English FYI.


What does it say about you though that you missed my 'foriegn' blunder ? This is a shitey thread to be 'Featured' though. Not voting now is an insult to the 1,000,000 plus Iraqi dead since 2003. Or let's not get historical. 100+ car boms in Iraq this month. 9 US soldiers killed this month. 12 UK soldiers killed this month. And who cares how many Iraqis killed this month - certainly not the non-voting 'hoilier-than-me' IMCistas who would promote this.

But we are still enouraged to vote 'No2ID in Machester'.

Vote peace. Vote against the Iraqi occupaton and the forthcoming Iranian invasion. In England, you are fucked, riot. In Scotland and Wales, vote Independence from this defunct evil English empire - then riot.

Cachau bant pen pigyn, ti'n llawn cachu. Paid a mallu cachau. Cay dy geg, a dos i ffwcio dy gath i fyny'r pen ol. Pen cachi.

Follow the link:  http://www.bovlomov.com/cartoonframe.htm

Anyone who doesn't vote is liable to be labelled apathetic when, very often, quite the opposite is the case. I think the cartoon "Apathy" expresses this rather well.

The "Nazi Party" caroon underneath is great too for those Labour party apologists who tell you they're working for change from within.

Now an Englishman assuming an american name - who else calls themselves Denny- swearing nonsense in Welsh that is easily found on the internet - that is a bit sad.

Ilyan, Dai, a bit of support here - is there a snowballs chance in hell that this guy is genuine ? Cos he can't string a sentence together without reference to Google. I'd give him 2/10 for mimicry, 1/10 for Goidelic. You know I can idenitify you in French too - 'pay day'.

See that is the one of the obvious flaws in 'IM-UK' - you have rules against insults but you don't have the linguistic skills native to 'the UK' to enforce them. Now anyone want to chip in here with some Irish ?

Just as well the UK and the 'British' empire is just about to be bucketed by the brave Scots, the second nation to fall to the English empire. At leat the Welsh fell at arms, to the Scots shame they were sold out by their nobility to centuries of slaverly and dominion.

Or is that too English for Denny to understand ?

Don't assume because someone signs themselves "emigre" that they're the same person who posted an exchange with you about the Basque country a few days ago.

To my knowledge that's the second person who's ripped off my pseudonym since then (the other one was on a post about English as a Second Language, did you spot it?). Guess it must be cool since imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. You just have to go on posting style. I suspect you're also Sweaty Sock...

Screw your principles? No! Take them with you even into the polling booth if you can.

We must break the machine by any means available, including voting for a non-corporate candidate if one is available. I am posting up blank sheets of paper in our barrio as an antidote to all the election propaganda, since we have no credible non-corporate parties.

What I object to is that “Danny” who calls himself an ‘anarchist’ is spamming posts with propaganda that implies the only way for Scottish people to bring about real change is for them to support the nationalists – even if they don’t actually want devolution. And, let’s face it, there is no indication that a referendum would actually choose devolution.

In other words, voting for a pro-indepence party in Scotland would be nothing more than a protest vote that would not actually bring about any real change because there is no indication that Scottish people would actually choose devolution.

So how exactly is “Voting for a pro-indepence party in Scotland…the best way to end the system”? Patently, it is not! Well, not unless you conveniently disregard the elephant in the room called a possible lost referendum.

From an anarchist point of view it would only make sense to support the nationalists if you thought most Scottish people actually wanted devolution. But there again, if that was the case, they would not need your help as they would logically be voting for a pro-indepence party in Scotland anyway..

Hence, Danny’s impetuous behavior seems more suited to a die hard nationalist than an experienced and well informed anarchist.

And so, surely, the best way to bring about real change is for people up and down the country to vote for Respect wherever they stand. Respect is the biggest threat to neo-liberalism today. Put aside any minor differences for the sake of the greater good and join forces with others in your area - form a unity coalition and help change the world.

Emigre,

Sorry, I assume someone is who they claim to be unltil the original poster says otherwise. I most certainly am not Sweaty Sock, though I know and detest that poster - who incidentally does posts under other peoples pseudonyms and under multiple names on the one thread. We just happen to agree on this issue. Your blank sheet of paper idea is wonderful if you truly don't have any suitable candidates to use as a protest vote.


"Danny’s impetuous behavior seems more suited to a die hard nationalist than an experienced and well informed anarchist. And so, surely, the best way to bring about real change is for people up and down the country to vote for Respect wherever they stand."

Umm, I have repeatedly said vote for any of the pro-independence parties, including Solidarity. In Scotland the Respect Coalition is supporting Solidarity. So if you are going to criticise me for being ill-informed, learn a wee bit more about your own party first eh ? I'll be giving them one of my many votes but since I suspect you are English ( no offence meant ) you probably don't even know we have multiple votes in the rest of the UK.

I used the name emigre because I thought the person who used it did so to highlight a rather bizarre spelling mistake you made previously. I’d genuinely forgot emigre had already posted on this thread. (Sorry emigre. Please do regard it a sincere form of flattery).

Respect support the right for people to choose devolution if they want it. So I’m at least pleased you (Danny) will be giving Respect one of your votes. I hope you will encourage others to do the same and with the same gusto you employ for the pro-independence parties, because presumably you’d fully agree that those who do not want vote for the pro-independence parties should still use their vote.

And, finally, I hope I didn’t wind you up too much. But lets face it, you are a curious individual. No hard feelings?

P.S. I don’t think “Denny” was swearing at you. ;-)

Apologies for confusing Danny with a sweaty sock. On the internet who can tell?

Rereading Homage to Catalonia (George Orwell), absolutely essential reading for anyone interested in anarchism, since it's an eyewitness account of the most successful Anarchist revolution in Western Europe in living memory (just). It's very readable and extremely relevant to this and a lot of other current debates.

I'm not going to retell the story here (everyone should know about it, if not, read the book!) but just remind people that in 1936 the anarchists and CNT, who had just won a revolution in over half the country, made a deal with the Socialist/Communist government to fight against the Fascists. The Socialists/Communists then spent the remaining 3 years of the civil war screwing the CNT until the Fascists won the war. (Don't let anybody accuse me of oversimplifying history!)

Point being? Maybe it's obvious but any political party will shaft anarchists every chance they get, because their positions depend on it. The Greens or Respect would be the same if they were "in power" because being "in power" means keeping others out of it.

But you should vote for the non-corporate parties anyway. Their hold on power isn't consolidated so they are not going to effectively wield it, for a while. Or to put it another way, the people in those parties will take a while to become corrupted by power. So vote for them, but don't trust them or cooperate with their schemes.

"I used the name emigre because I thought the person who used it did so to highlight a rather bizarre spelling mistake you made previously.."

Okay Reader, I do make bizarre spelling mistakes, but please do stick to just the one name per thread as it avoids all this chit-chat. Reader is a perfectly good pseudonymn. Ala 'Bernhard Schlink'.

"Respect support the right for people to choose devolution if they want it. So I’m at least pleased you (Danny) will be giving Respect one of your votes. I hope you will encourage others to do the same and with the same gusto you employ for the pro-independence parties, because presumably you’d fully agree that those who do not want vote for the pro-independence parties should still use their vote."

Okay, but bear in mind this is (still) IM-UK and that means Scotland too where Respect aren't standing in favour of (pro-independence) Solidarity - and since you asked most politely I will give them one of my highest votes. All the independence parties are anti-war in Scotland - the Libs are the only anti-war, pro-union party up here.

"And, finally, I hope I didn’t wind you up too much. But lets face it, you are a curious individual. No hard feelings?"

Absolutely no hard feelings. I am the first to admit I am a curious character and easily wound up, I do earn some suspicion for that - but it would be a boring world if we were all the same, no ?

We do agree on the need to vote. Because I am in Scotland and recommending pro-independence votes, I cannot recommend to anyone in England to vote for any party simply as it is none of my concern. None of the Scottish pro-independence MPs in Westminster vote on English policies and I think that is a wise move. Since Respect respect Scottish independence I guess that implies they respect English independence too. I will say I hope one day you have an English nationalism that is so inclusive and anti-racist that any immigrant would be proud to support it. England has many things to be proud of and you could be a good neighbour in future, you are just a crap landlord.

PS Once we are independent, I think Berwick on Tweed should be given a vote to join the 'no-borders' nation !!

"Apologies for confusing Danny with a sweaty sock. On the internet who can tell?"
He apes my style. I am not flattered.

"Point being? Maybe it's obvious but any political party will shaft anarchists every chance they get, because their positions depend on it. The Greens or Respect would be the same if they were "in power" because being "in power" means keeping others out of it."

Now you are over simplifying. The Socialist parties of the thirties had yet to be informed of the Stalins dictatorial abuses in the USSR. They have learned from that now though. So let me over-simplify to the point of cliche. 'Power corrupts' - even an anarchist can't be trusted with any power. That is why anarchists always resist power structures and prominent personalities too, and renounce power when they realise they have it. Trust me, I'm anti-nuclear but you wouldn't want me with my finger on the trigger...

"But you should vote for the non-corporate parties anyway. Their hold on power isn't consolidated so they are not going to effectively wield it, for a while. Or to put it another way, the people in those parties will take a while to become corrupted by power. So vote for them, but don't trust them or cooperate with their schemes."

Yeah, vote +against+ the worst of them - but don't accept the best of them. And don't think for a moment that your vote was even counted or counts for anything, it just doesn't hurt to do it or give any 'creedence' to the system. I think we are all pretty much in agreement on this except the 'Vote Nobody' campaign.

There are BNP candidates standing in these elections, and their supporters won't be philosophising like ignorant, arrogant sixth formers, they'll be down the voting stations.

People die for the right to vote - USE IT

For all these reasons you should not vote!

For instance:

Where is the opposition to WAR?

Where is the opposition to WAR Crimes?

Where is the opposition to Draconian Laws?

Where is the opposition to Refugee Detainment?

Where is the opposition to David Hicks 5 year detention?

Where is the opposition to the AWB scandal?

Where is the opposition to Islamophobia?

Where is the opposition to Political Scapegoating?

Where is the opposition to Neo-Colonialism?

Where is the opposition to False Flag Operations by the CIA?

Where is the opposition to the FTA 'Investors Rights Agreement'?

Where is the opposition to HIV Discrimination?

Where is the opposition to the Privatisation of Health?

Where is the opposition to Desecrating and Ignoring Aboriginal Affairs?

Where is the opposition to subordinating Scientific and Medical Research?

Where is the opposition to Uranium Mining?

Where is the opposition to No WorkChoices?

Where is the opposition to Social Services Reform?

Where is the opposition to Desperate and Disabled to Work?

Where is the opposition to 6 weeks Social Security Payments Cut Off's?

Where is the opposition to Work for the Dole instead of Getting Better Education and Skills for Better Employment Opportunities?

Where is the opposition to Rorting the Social Security System by Corporate Greed?

Australian government cuts thousands of welfare recipients off benefits

This relentless assault on the most vulnerable sections of society has proceeded without a murmur of opposition from the official political establishment. In fact, the groundwork for it was laid by the Labor Party during its 13 years in office between 1983 and 1996. It is therefore not surprising that Labor has dropped its previous criticisms about sole parents and the disabled being incorporated into the new regime.

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/01/136564.php

==================================

The Environment

All the parties go on about the environment but Nobody is actually protecting it. Global Warming is a proven fact just look around you. We must reduce our consumption of coal, oil and gas and so what does the government do? It wants to build Nuclear power stations across Australia. to PRETEND that nuclear energy and the uranium fuel cycle is:
- safe
- financially affordable
- insurable
and not contributing to:
- greenhouse emssions
- massive water use
- nuclear wastes
- nuclear weapons,

it would merely attempt to address just 36% of global greenhouse gas emissions, ignoring the 64%* of GHG from industry, agriculture, transport and deforestation.

Please, don't be fooled into fighting this issue on the basis of energy use and climate, for we know all the reasons why Nuclear power is, in reality, a moot point.

We CAN, however, re-frame the issue (as our Labor & Liberal parties are want to do) by focussing on the mining and military sectors which actually drive the nuclear industry.

"Safeguards" for uranium exports do NOT guarantee inspections, do NOT apply to military facilities and provide for diversion of uranium reserves from civil to military use. ('The Australian', 2/12/05, "China warning on uranium", paragraph 10).

This fact alone, if Rudd and Howard would comprehend it, is reason enough to end the nuclear cycle initiated here in Australia.

Demand nothing less.

“Radical change cannot be negotiated by governments; it can only be enforced by people.”
- Arundhati Roy in The Nation, 9 February 2004.

"If the people will lead, the leaders will follow."

- David Suzuki.

* International Energy Agency.

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/04/144166_comment.php#144211

================================

Coal subsidies far outweigh funding for renewables

Greenpeace has accused the Federal Government of spending billions of dollars on the coal industry and failing to subsidise cleaner energy sources.

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/04/144242_comment.php#144256

===============================

Scrap Growing Esteem
Say NO to cuts in education

In reality the university has decided to go down this road not because of the educational merits but for reasons of status and profit. In 2005, when the model was first proposed, the Vice Chancellor highlighted that over the past 25 years guaranteed federal funding has gone from 90% to 23% of university revenue. Therefore the university perceived two choices, continue to grow at the current rate or opt for a radical rethink.

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/04/143707.php

===================================

Unemployed to be offered jobs in defence forces

Employment service providers will be encouraged to work with the Australian Defence Force (ADF) to help more people take on a military career.

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/04/143466_comment.php#143477

Time to go to war with your country?

Unemployed to be offered jobs in war forces. She says the scheme will provide opportunities to unemployed people who would not otherwise have considered a job in the ADF?

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/04/143481.php

==================================

HOUSING - A HUMAN RIGHT

The news that the French government has drafted a law to give everyone a legally enforceable right to housing should be of interest to the 100,000 homeless people in Australia.

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/04/143481_comment.php#143484

==================================

'participatory democracy'
by Spandau Ballet

Firstly, I do not see a single candidate I want to speak on behalf of me. Why should I 'participate' in a system which does not represent me?

Secondly, our only option to 'participate' is limited to once every three years or so. Ticking a box in secret is hardly 'participatory'.

Thirdly, if we DO 'participate' our voices are nothing, when the elected few make decisions which we have NO say whatsoever. For example, despite 90% opposition to Iraq invasion - our leaders took us there.

Stop putting fuel in a car that has no wheels.

Abstain.
=================================

Democratic Lost Property?

These things are all missing in your so-called "democracy" the democracy you think you have!

We are calling for an abundance of people who don't believe in the official truth, which is a MONSTER and a lie all the days of your life, to vote for Nobody.

If things are going to change then they're never going to change whilst people give validity and credibility to a totally flawed system.

That means you'll be looking at Lib/Lab until the day you die!

Bush (Custer) Last Stand In Iraq - War Drums in Washington

The majority of American citizens have the delusion that they actually decide who governs them, when in practice the Democrats and Republicans are only two wings of the same ruling class that owns Congress, just as it owns the land, the banks and big corporations, the newspapers, and radio and television companies.

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/02/139901.php

Stop Voting - Stop Supporting Pseudo Democracies

Just as communicating with the Feds about abandoning the way we live now is a futile process that only buttresses the legitimacy of old ways of thinking and living, continuing to vote within centralised political processes only reinforces their continuing relevance. Citizens who continue to reside within totalitarian-democracies can, at least partly, abandon them by not voting at elections that will never lead to abundance and a better way of living.

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2006/05/113003.php

=========================================

War criminals need time, not a timetable: Community

Not only has Labor left the Iraqi's in the lurch by being complicit in the illegal and degrading act of aggression killing over 655,000 people in a holocaust but now they say, after the fact, that they won't leave the Iraqi's in the lurch. So why have we been left in the lurch?

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/03/142514.php

THE MONSTER

The MONSTER destroys itself, so why do we fight the MONSTER? Why not just build our own world? Think of cost benefit of our time, money and our investment in building a new world - opposed to trying to stop the MONSTER who is always right. I know! We might save some lives! Nah! The monster said… that those people had to die and they'll have to lock people up if they disagree. So we say… well lock us up then. And they do! Then they go off and continue to do the killing while people are locked up. Because that was the right thing to do - because they were just terrorists and you were just a wild animal that doesn't understand capitalism and the way the system works. I know! We'll stop the war in Iraq? But Afghanistan is okay so well just keep on building democracy over there?

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/03/142427.php

========================================

THE POLITICS OF CRIME IN AUSTRALIA TODAY

How is it that Prime Minister John Howard can accuse other people of some crime or lies? No, you do not need to be clairvoyant or have any special supernatural talents to meet up with or to see one of the more see-through inhabitants of politics in Australia today. You just need a strong heart and an eager mind. While other people, who are being accused, belittled, tainted or desecrated by numerous criminal politicians and their media allies. Politicians who don't lead us by any form of example and who break their own morals, principals, values, and ethics. Politicians who break their own laws in order to deceive us and to suit their own political ends.

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/03/141552.php

Australia: The New 51st State

John Howard's servility to the US is even greater than Tony Blair's and has earned him the nickname Bush's deputy sheriff. The conspiracy between Washington, the media and politicians is eroding the country's freedoms

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/03/141471.php

If you're waiting for Lib/Lab then you're just waiting for a catastrophe!

What about all the scapegoats the Howard government has produced for their war on terror/resources? Most, still languishing in isolated segregation prisons and still waiting to be heard. Rendition and torture of our citizens? 20 years for thought crimes? Jury asked to push on when they couldn't make up their mind? Rules of evidence and standards lowered in our local courts? 5 years in Guantanamo without trial or charge? Military style Kangaroo Courts, Control Orders? Detention Orders? Indefinite Detention? Then we have Australian citizens being held in detention and even being deported?

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/02/139474.php

==================================

US/Australia: Refugee Deal Trades in Human Lives

(New York, April 18, 2007) – A deal between the United States and Australia to trade refugees housed at Guantanamo Bay for those held on the island nation of Nauru upends international refugee standards, Human Rights Watch said today.

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/04/143799.php

===================================

Australian Governments communiqué, in which Prime Minister John Howard and the state and territory leaders declared: “A terrorist attack in Australia continue to be feasible and could occur.” The communiqué unveiled draconian new “counter-terrorism” laws, including control orders and “preventative detention”.

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/04/143981.php

'X marks the spot': ICANW launch in Melbourne

The Australian branch of the International Campaign against Nuclear Weapons announced its official launch today at Parliament House in Melbourne...

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/04/143939.php

British Lancet medical journal calls for defeat of Australian government

The editorial condemned “Prime Minister John Howard’s indifference to the academic medical community and his profound intolerance to those less secure than himself and his administration”. As the latest example, it cited Howard’s comment on a Melbourne radio station last week, declaring that people living with HIV should not be allowed to enter and live in Australia.

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/04/144115.php

Politics of fear damaging traditional values: Fraser

Former prime minister Malcolm Fraser says the Federal Government has used the politics of fear to damage traditional Australian values.

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/04/144264_comment.php#144271

ALP to vote on uranium mines policy
 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/04/144166.php

VOTE NOBODY!
 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/04/144149.php

Vote Nobody Next Federal Election
 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2007/04/144122.php

Ordinary folk feel powerless in the face of the organised deception and exploitation that is being practised by an unholy alliance of taker-thinking governments, corporations and media networks. Individually, ordinary people seem and feel so insignificant that their voice can be, and generally is, ignored. Individually, ordinary people lack financial and other resources to confront the legions of lawyers that the Feds and corporations can muster, and they correctly assess their chances in the adversarial and often corrupt 'justice' systems of the dominant Level 3 Civilization, as very slim indeed.

Collectively, however, ordinary citizens have two huge levers that they can use to not only make their views heard, but also make them prevail. These too-little-used levers are:

* Superior Numbers - that can far outweigh the power of governments and corporations to counter and control the resultant force of public opinion and resolve.

* Communal Communication Abilities - That enable ordinary people to carry on dialogue, share and refine ideas, and formulate common goals and strategies for achieving them.

Ants are individually puny opponents for small vertebrates and even humans yet, army ants, fire ants, and others, are fully capable of attacking and killing much larger prey, if they are hungry enough or angry enough. The strength of the ants lies in their superior numbers and their instinctive hive model of organisation.

The natural, some would say instinctive, organisation model for humans is the tribe. But there is no suggestion here of attacking or harming the less numerous members of big government and big business organisations that are structured along institutional and militarist lines. Any physical attack on the forces of the OWO would not only violate the sixth commandment, it would fail to advance humanity or benefit society in any way. No, the conflict between the OWO and the rest of us is a battle of ideas and, as such, it holds great potential as a transformational force that will benefit all of humanity - even those people who are presently on the side of federalism, capitalism and a creeping totalitarian control of the many by a few.

If several dozen people decide to renounce their citizenship and cease to pay taxes or show allegiance to a federation, they will have a problem. Once several thousand people decide to take such action the ownership of the problem will start to shift towards the Feds and away from the secessionists. Should a few million families elect to abandon the old federal system and form one or more free cities, there will be very little that governments can do about it, at least in the sense of physical coercion and application of legal provisions and the rule of law. There will just be too many leaver-givers, as there can often be too many ants facing much larger and seemingly more powerful opponents.

Considerable communication will be required to raise awareness of the issues and options surrounding the abandonment of the failed political and economic models of industrial capitalism, and the creation of a Level 4 Civilization from a rising wave of spike technologies. Such dialogue needs to be between us citizens of the deteriorating federations that are becoming more and more totalitarian. There is little point attempting to lobby politicians or gain 'air time' in the mainstream media, those sectors of society are no longer taking any instructions from the likes of you and I.

Although there is no revolution or uprising being contemplated here, and no harm to the agents of the OWO, it can be expected that federal authorities will actively discourage such dialogue between 'their' citizens. Any attempt to inform people and raise awareness is likely to be branded as subversive. But this charge can only be made from the viewpoint of the established order. The alternative, and eventually the majority, view will be that individuals have an intrinsic right to free speech and free assembly.

 http://melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2006/05/112747.php

It would seem that there is a complete lack of any reason in many of these submissions. Just to say vote or don’t vote will most likely just alienate people. I am a middle age man and I consider myself to be quite well informed. However I am sure that other generations may find it challenging to be told “don’t vote” with out any reason or critique.

My concern is that we are told that voting is the only form of involvement in decisions that affect us all. We are constantly told that we have to vote or face disastrous consequences e.g. the BNP running the country.

As I have said before voting and a system of representation is an archaic system stemming from when the landed gentry sat in the house of commons and lords and dictated decisions.

There are many ways to be involved in decisions that affect us all. However for us all to have a say in our own destinies is not a simple affair. To do that it often means having to challenge dominating behavior or action’s which a system of representation can never do.

It also means re-educating ourselves for example not to believe every thing we are told by the mass media, asking questions and having a critical response to what we are told, which many of us don’t do, particularly middle aged white men.

Not voting as an act in isolation of course will not achieve a huge amount. Not voting and taking back control or even withdrawing consent from the parties who dominate use my work however voting is an institution and things take time.

So vote or don’t vote but please think about what you are doing and make some suggestions for example how can we end homelessness.

Looks like the BNP are spamming the BBC site:

 http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=2&threadID=6261&edition=1&ttl=20070502102840&#paginator

Not voting increases their chances of success.

People are stating that I should vote Labour because they have connectons to the Unions and are therefore linked to working class politics/communities and can be changed.I cannot stand the idea of voting labour especially when I think about the war in iraq and lots of other lovely things they do ie privatising the NHS etc.I intend to vote green but have been told this is not class politics!Maybe I should not vote.
How can people who campaign against New Labour policies then Vote for them!!!!
Karen

I don't think for one moment that the current political system is a good one. It doesn't work too well and is largely inhabited by fools.

But to tell people "Don't Vote" is sheer stupidity of the highest order. If you do not vote, you have no voice. If you do not vote you have no right to complain, because you did absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer a REALISTIC alternative to those idiots who ultimately gain power. Labour might be crap, but just imagine if nobody voted against the Tories?

Contrary to popular belief; we do not live in a dictatorship, we do not live in a Banana republic and we are not a country in desperation. This is NOT Zimbabwe!!! People have given their lives so that we can vote and to say don't vote is a sheer insult to their memory.

If you really want to do something to make a change - bloody well form a political party!!! Look at what has been achieved in other countries by people taking the system on at its own game. You will NOT, repeat, not, beat the system by not taking part in it. If you can't beat them, join them and beat them from the inside.

I largely subscribe to the views of this site but to tell people not to vote is plain mental. It is precisely the kind of people who take notice of sites like this who need to get of their arses and vote - if people like us don't vote, our opposites will take power. Non participation is no way o get something done.

People want things to change. But when asked what they think will change it they ask for more of the same?

More of the same won't change it. It's time to vote for Nobody and spread the word. You're not asking them not to vote per se.

They have a choice, they can either vote 'informal' or just don't vote. Two choices.

Because when they bring in electronic voting the first choice will taken away from you. That will be the time you will need to leave the country.

Well I'm standing here looking at you
What do I see?
I'm looking straight through
It's so sad
When you're young
To be told
You're having fun

So unplug the jukebox
And do us all a favour
That music's lost its taste
So try another flavour -
Antmusic

Well I'm standing here what do I see?
A big nothing
Threatening me
It's so sad
When you're young
To be told
You're having fun

Don't tread on an ant he's done nothing to you
There might come a day
When he's treading on you
Don't tread on an ant you'll end up black and blue
You cut off his head
Legs come looking for you

"Because when they bring in electronic voting the first choice will taken away from you. That will be the time you will need to leave the country."

Yeah, hopefully Scotland will leave the UK en masse. Maybe it won't though. Guess why. We already have electronic voting. Sure, we still just put an X next to our MSP and our First Minister. And we still just write 1 to our favourite council candidate to 8 to our least favourite candidate ( single transferable vote ). And then we just drop the slips in the box.

But. And this is a big but. The votes are counted by machine. A computer has to read everyones 1 and recognise it as a 1. Everyones 2 and recognise it as a 2. Everyones X and recognise it as an X.

I've worked in handwriting recognistion before - in the company that did Sky TVs handwriting recognition. And there is a failure rate for each process. 1 looks quite like 7 for example. Humans make mistakes too though so this isn't too serious. Number and X's are too difficult.

Much more serious, whenever you introduce any computer into a system, it provides a single point of failure, a single point that can be hacked into and corrupted. Speaking as a computer guy, there is no way computers should be anyway involved in elections. Think DieBold. Or google diebold 2000 at least. Now the only people who could corrupt that would be the ruling party who commissioned the system.


This is not a reason not to vote - if anything it is more of a reason to vote - if we all can turn up here later and say 'Yes, I voted against the war party, and yet Labour still get returned, then we will have more reason to be justifiably furious. If Labour do get back in, then those of you who 'Don't Vote' - and whoever featured this article - well, you should either sign up for Iraq/Iran or go and hang your selves directly.

Actually, is there an IMCista who would like to claim credit for encouraging non-particpation in one of the most important elections in history ? Was it debated at all ? Cos although Goldmann said don't vote, I feel if she was witnessing the neo-con/nu-lab genocide in Iraq she may just have joined Chomsky in urging for a negative vote. I may be dirty for voting in an unclean poll, but I will have tried one more tactic to end genocide that you have been too precious to support.

grrr

Well you live there Danny I don't all I can is good luck with Labour and do your best son. I guess more of the same does suit you like I guess the alternative like in Australia is just as unpalitable. Like banging your head on a brick wall.

To all you Pommies good luck we're rooting for ya!

"Don't tread on an ant
He's done nothing to you
There might come a day
When he's treading on you "

Wise words indeed. I hope tommorow we will have earned the right to be called Scots and not the communal 'Pommies'. I don't think we are banging our heads against a brick-wall, more against a glass door. We are (in)famous for our 'Glasgow Kiss'.
Unlike Howards Australia, or Cameron/Browns England, an independent Scotland wouldn't commit troops to US corporate resource wars. I have that straight from the horses mouth. So when is Oz going to be 'Independent from America' - we are rooting for you !

Hey, Mr Howard, do you want to buy some second-hand nuclear deterrent ? Only £75 billion and you can fire them off as soon as the US President allows you to.

"I want to destroy passers-by"

Several people have commented that someone died so's I can vote. First off, I didn't ask him (it was most likely to've been a man) to, whoever he is, so it's a bit rich to make this claim. I guess he died long before I was born anyway. Flippancy aside, how do you know that he died so that I can vote? It's like the politician who says that "people want this or that". At least when someone puts words in my mouth, I can tell them where to go. If you put words into the mouths of dead people, they don't have that option.

As to voting in the local election, I have the choice (if you can call it one) between Con, LibDem and Labour. No thanks. Why don't I stand? I did, several times (as a paper candidate for the Greens) but got fed up reading all the mudslinging at the LibDems. Party politics creates artificial boundaries - people stop thinking for themselves. A lot of campaigning is entirely negative, based on fear.

I think there are cases when it makes sense to vote, either to achieve some particular goal, or to avoid a particularly nasty piece of work getting in. Then again, if the piece of work got in, this might set people to think that there's maybe something wrong with the system:

"In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! The Thing itself is the Abuse!"
Edmund Burke, A Vindication of Natural Society

Politicians have to earn a living and come election time they work very hard at what it is they do - its just the same as you or i trying to impress the boss come the wage round - But do you not think it is the civil service that is the real problem in the UK?

Whoever gets voted in has to deal with those stubborn devils

And regardless of who gets voted in, they still have jobs.

Change that and you are changing the way the country runs

For everyone

Well, the clear picture of how the Scottish Elections have panned out is as yet impossible to discern. There are concerns that the buggy new voting technology coupled with the stupidity of combining two different methods in the one poll could have led to 100,000 or more ballots being assessed as "spoiled"

I for one will be calling for action to be taken if this figure is remotely accurate.

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6623287.stm

The 'buggy new voting technology' is maybe new to the election but it is just 20 year old technology badly implemented. The company DRS also ran the London mayoral elections combined with a simuiltaneous EU vote, so should have been able to cope with dual elctions for a similar sized populace as Scotland. So what went wrong ?

A political pundit on the BBC (Tom somebody) said today 'The votes were counted alright, then they were sent to a central computer which refused to send them back'. Other punters made similar comments throughout the night. It wasn't that the votes weren't being scanned in, it was the processing of the data that caused delays.

And why would that be ? Once the data has been scanned in, that is the hard, slow, mechanical part of the job over. In a way, delays caused by that could be perfectly innocent and even expected. But why should it be hard to collate that amount of data ? The crappy PC I am typing on would be capable of handling that amount of data in real-time. Seriously, this used to be my job and I am qualified to say that.

One thing that would slow it down and cause delays is a total system failure, obviously the computer would be replaced and the process restarted. That'd take about an hour. It wasn't that then.

I admit this is pure speculation, but another reason to delay the processing is to give someone time to massage the figures. I hate to quote myself from this same thread but as I said before the eelection: "Much more serious, whenever you introduce any computer into a system, it provides a single point of failure, a single point that can be hacked into and corrupted. Speaking as a computer guy, there is no way computers should be anyway involved in elections."

I also feel that 100,000 spoiled ballots are unacceptably high. In a great many wards the number of spoiled ballots are higher than the majorities of the returned politicians. I presume what has happened is that if someone has made any error on the ballot paper then the whole ballot has been declared 'spoiled'. ( I doubt the 'Vote Nobody' campaign was quite that succcessful !) In effect, there are three votes on this single sheet of paper, and two different voting methods. There is the list vote, the consituency vote, and the councillor vote. So if someone put an X next to their councillors name instead of a 1, then their list and constituency vote would have been ignored even if correctly marked. If somebody put a 1 next to their MSP and a 2 next to another MSP, then all their other votes would be discounted too. This is patently nonsense. A computer judges ballot papers without the slightest human discretion or understanding. They should not be used in elections.

The Electoral Commission has announced a serious review of last nights debacle. I don't think this is good enough. I think this election should be declared null and void and all the ballots should be recounted by hand the good old fashioned way. I don't see why it was changed. This isn't 'sour grapes' on my part - all the candidates I supported won.

"In effect, there are three votes on this single sheet of paper, and two different voting methods."
Should read :
"In effect, there are three votes on these two sheets of paper, and two different voting methods." Yes, I did vote, I just stayed up way past my bed-time and haven't quite recovered. I spent eight hours outside a polling station yesterday voluntarily explaining the new voting system - and about 50% of people didn't know how to vote when I asked them. The council had one paid 'volunteer' inside explaining the same thing - when occasional surges of people came through they walked by both of us. The rest of the day I was running people to the polling station who hadn't got their postal votes. So sorry for making that elementary error today but I am running on empty. There is one less NuLab MSP in a key constinuency today partly thanks to me and I am quite chuffed with that, but I still think all the votes should be recounted by hand.

"The Scottish National party has won 47 seats to Labour's 46 to make it the largest single party in the Scottish parliament, it has been reported tonight. The reports came soon after the party's leader, Alex Salmond, said he would immediately order an independent judicial inquiry into the Scottish ballot fiasco if he was elected as first minister."
 http://politics.guardian.co.uk/localgovernment/story/0,,2072877,00.html

Hehehe - hah ! I'll be volunteering testimony to that inquiry if the Unionist parties don't band together to keep the SNP out of government. Fuck the Electoral Commission.

As an aside, Salmond also recently came out against 'MI5 dirty tricks' against Angus MacNeill, from the SNP who grassed Blair and Levy to the cops for 'cash for honours'. It looks like I will never have to fear MI5 again. It'll be MI6 next time...

If I've misunderstood anything, I'll apologise in advance...

I've heard some crap in my time but "I didn't ask him" and "he probably died long before I was born anyway" (so it doesn't matter anymore, does it?), when referring to someone who fell in battle against fascists just about takes the "Golden Turd for Inanety and Glibness" award. It also scores top marks for sounding like a hypocritical tosser.

I'm not usually one for having a go, but in this case I just have to. For someone to say something that amounts to,"I never asked someone to leave home and family, travel to a foreign land and fight against fascism with a very good chance of not surviving, in the hope that it makes a difference for future generations" is about the worst pile of bullshit I've read recently. How dare you even contemplate such a shameful and hypocritical comment?

It's one thing dressing up in a balaclava and smashing the windows of a bloody burger bar, 99% safe in the knowledge that you won't get caught, (an example - not saying you ever have or would...), but it's quite another to actually put your life on the line for people you care about and those you have never met.

Read some history - some REAL history before you enjoy the freedom to protest and learn how it is that you enjoy that freedom.

If I haven't misunderstood you deserve to be completely and thoroughly shamed.

being an ex-techie myself, I was wondering what the fuck could be wrong if the local systems were reading okay, but the problem was that the target data server was failing. Or so someone was wittering at around 3am when I woke up.

The causes for that could be infinite: system security locking them out; data upload being dropped; and even the very unlikely scenario of the database client software transmitting the data in the wrong tabulation for the data server. If the problem was indeed the data server returning bad checksums (confirmation of accurate data) then, that would suggest that the problem was in the software code.

I also wonder what method of data transmission was used. The only really secure way to deliver the data would be to physically move data from A to B. The news reports made it sound like they were transmitting over a network, which seems like a completely unnecessary security risk. There is no such as a secure data network.

OCR is famous for misreads. No-one the right side competent would use an OCR system without having humans checking the input/output and cleaning the data accordingly. It does make you wonder why people employ OCR at all. Well, for transcription of large texts (scanning long documents etc.) it makes perfect sense- so long as it it proof read). But when all you have to scan is two tick boxes and a sheet of numbers, I do wonder.

We were kept hanging on for over an hour as the BBC kept telling us the first return was about to be delivered. Is there any evidence that the system had any benefits?

But I agree, the fact this happened at all is frankly appalling. Have we got yet another IT version of the SA-80?

Can anyone name a government IT project that HASN'T been a complete disaster? My guess is that PPP companies like Schlumberger get paid by the minute and for every line of code.

I was on the receiving end of the new passport system at Little Venice in London the week it was rolled out. I waited 8 hours for a passport. Then we had the Tax Office overhaul, the recent NHS database and now the spiffy Scottish vote mangler.

Another reason to oppose ID cards. The whole country will probably be deported as soon as they switch the system on.

Quite a few died actually, over a million. I have a confession to make. This isn't the first time I voted. I voted Blair and Nu Lab once just to get rid of the Tories. A former CND guy, an 'ethical foriegn policy', an emphasis on education, what wasn't to like ? Now we have a trident replacement, genocide in Iraq, and more kids in private education than ever.

I can see the Vote Nobody point - I can feel it, I argued it for years. Voting is certainly no excuse for inactivity. Activity is also no excuse not to vote. It doesn't give credibility to the sham system we have.

The 100,000 spoiled ballot papers in Scotland were to massage an election, not protest votes.
Same goes for the 120,000 missing postal votes.
Same goes for the Sun/ Daily Record/ Daily Mail headlines up here - 'vote SNP and you are hanging yourself' - I do not exageratte. Impartial journalism indeed !

Labour were routed up here even if the polls don't reflect that. The Scottish people stood up to the corporate parties and their awful, Nazi PR tactics and electoral chicanery, and we came through.

Blairs legacy :

50 years of Labour domination in Scotland thrown away.
300 years of Union thrown away.
And why ? 1,000,000 murdered in Iraq and his fingerprints on every corpse.

The fact that Labour and the Tories lie and steal and cheat and smear isn't a reason to stop voting in England, quite the reverse.

SNP becomes largest party

Earlier, the SNP leader said Labour no longer had the "moral authority to run things".

If the results are confirmed by final counts, his party will have ended 50 years of Labour dominance north of the border - but no party will have an overall majority when the new session convenes.

The SNP leader - who came from third to win the Gordon seat, in north-east Scotland - also condemned the confusion that resulted in up to 100,000 spoilt ballot papers, saying he wanted a "rigorous and robust" investigation.

He said the number of spoilt papers "reduces confidence and trust in the whole process". The electoral commission said it would investigate the issue as a "matter of urgency".

n some constituencies, the number of spoilt papers, thought to stem from confusion among voters, was higher than the majority achieved by the winning candidate.

The SNP's deputy leader, Nicola Sturgeon, finally beat Labour's Gordon Jackson in the Glasgow Govan constituency at her third attempt with a majority of 744, but 1,220 papers were rejected.

In Edinburgh Central, where the deputy environment minister, Sarah Boyack, led by 1,193 votes, there were 1,501 spoilt papers.

The number of spoilt papers in Airdrie and Shotts was 1,536, while the Labour majority over the SNP was just 1,446. Meanwhile in Glasgow Baillieston, the total number of rejected papers - 1,850 - made up more than 10% of the votes accepted.

"And then you've then got the voters, up to 1,000 and more in each constituency, whose votes have been discounted because of uncertainty. This does need to be looked at in detail."

 http://politics.guardian.co.uk/localgovernment/story/0,,2072877,00.html

Seems clear that human error on purpose played a roll in the 'rejected' papers. Plenty of evidence for it! Sure some errors by other means but a lot of people 'rejected' the ballots. Go the ants......

"The causes for that could be infinite: system security locking them out;"

Well, that is assuming they had a security system. The Diebold PCs in the US in 2000 were unpatched Windows PCs connected by modems. Really.

" data upload being dropped; and even the very unlikely scenario of the database client software transmitting the data in the wrong tabulation for the data server. If the problem was indeed the data server returning bad checksums (confirmation of accurate data) then, that would suggest that the problem was in the software code."

Eh, well, they ran the London election okay, they weren't developing this system on the night - it would have been tried and tested. I can't do this is a nice friendly humble way but I have to pull rank on you on this subject since I know I know more about it - anyone else feel free to pull rank on me for the same reason. I really mean no offence since we are obviously agreeing on the major points, I just want to make sure you have your facts straight if you do complain about this- as you should.

"I also wonder what method of data transmission was used. The only really secure way to deliver the data would be to physically move data from A to B. The news reports made it sound like they were transmitting over a network, which seems like a completely unnecessary security risk. There is no such as a secure data network."

Almost certainly just tunneled over the net, maybe leased lines. Again I think this is a minor point compared to having computers involved at all. They could have put data-tapes on the backs of specially trained homing-tortoises and still got a quicker result if the main computer was working without outside interference.

"OCR is famous for misreads. No-one the right side competent would use an OCR system without having humans checking the input/output and cleaning the data accordingly. It does make you wonder why people employ OCR at all. Well, for transcription of large texts (scanning long documents etc.) it makes perfect sense- so long as it it proof read). But when all you have to scan is two tick boxes and a sheet of numbers, I do wonder."

I agree about the need for human operators checking data - this probably did have to happen. But although the other votes are simple OMR (Optical Mark Recognition) the council vote is ICR. Optical character regonition is reading printed characters, pretty easy. Intelligent Character Recognition is reading human handwriting, which is almost as difficult as voice recognition since everyone writes differently. However, it is still old technology and although it produces errors, so do humans reading forms, and over a limited charcter set ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 X ) the only real problems are differenting between 3 and 8, 1 and 7, and the 7 and X. Since few people would list past 3 then this isn't or shouldn't be a major problem either. It would have been done locally and in almost real-time by the scanning system. The delay seems to be after that stage from all reports, including your own.

"We were kept hanging on for over an hour as the BBC kept telling us the first return was about to be delivered. Is there any evidence that the system had any benefits?"

It wasn't quicker. It wouldn't have been cheaper. It would have been more easy to corrupt. So that is one clear benefit ! I'll take you back to your first point and would urge you to stress this if you are going to publicise the debacle further, I think you were on the right track to begin with:

"I was wondering what the fuck could be wrong if the local systems were reading okay, but the problem was that the target data server was failing."

Now why would that happen ? If you were a techie, using a tried and trusted system, and it failed, you would backup the data, replace the machine, restore the data, and start it up again. I estimated an hours delay. It could have been 10 minutes but I give some leeway for the unforseen. But a days delay ? No fucking way. The good thing about the SNP scraping through is we do stand a slight chance of getting to the bottom of this murky matter. Btw, did you notice the hundreds of thousands of postal ballots only went missing in certain constituencies ? I haven't mentioned a third fraud before, but I encountered two people and know another two people who registered to vote before the deadline but whose registrations were delayed - so they couldn't vote in either their old or new constitunencies.

It seems like they stole votes but never stole enough, and now may be exposed for it.

Nobody does it better, makes me feel sad for the rest,
nobody does it half as good as you, Baby, you're the best.
I wasn't lookin' but somehow you found me.
I tried to hide from your love light,
but like heaven above me, the spy who loved me,
is keeping all my secrets safe tonight.

Nobody does it better, sometimes I wish someone could.
Nobody does it quite the way you do. Did you have to be so good?
The way that you hold me, whenever you hold me,
there's some kind of magic inside you,
that keeps me from runnin', but just keep it comin',
how'd you learn to do the things you do?

And nobody does it better, makes me feel sad for the rest.
Nobody does it half as good as you.
Baby, baby, baby you're the best!

I'm no expert in the field by any means. I think I still have PTSD from doing IT. I must have been mad since I'm virtually innumerate. But even with my limited history of it, I could see that there was more to the story than they were imparting.

I was server admin on a test project using ICR and screen/stylus technology. I'd have a look at data occasionally, mostly out of boredom. Like you said the handwriting recognition software was a nightmare as it would have to be trained to recognise each and every operator's handwriting (and then nowhere near consistent) and if a machine changed hands without a profile being changed, we got total garbage that required the skills of clairvoyants to "clean". The one thing that sticks in my mind is someone's profession being recorded as a "chicken mincer". I was feeling really sorry for someone who had to turn up to a meat rendering factory each and every day. Then it dawned on me: child minder.

You'll probably know all too well how people with no clue as to the limitations of IT can get ahead of themselves in its implementation.

We had wasted about £25 grand on software which would have been vetoed if someone had just asked our IT dept to test it.

No wonder your political ideas are shitey.
Here is a response from the Scottish cannon fodder your campaign encouraged from France to Iraq :


Well, how'd you do, Private Willie McBride,
D'you mind if I sit down down here by your graveside?
I'll rest for awhile in the warm summer sun,
Been walking all day, Lord, and I'm nearly done.
I see by your gravestone you were only nineteen
When you joined the glorious fallen in 1916,
I hope you died quick and I hope you died "clean,"
Or, Willie McBride, was it slow and obscene?

Did they beat the drum slowly, did they sound the fife lowly?
Did the rifles fire o'er ye as they lowered ye down?
Did the bugles sing "The Last Post" in chorus?
Did the pipes play the "Floors1 O' The Forest"?

And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind
In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined?
And, though you died back in 1916,
To that loyal heart are you forever nineteen?
Or are you a stranger, without even a name,
Forever enshrined behind some glass pane,
In an old photograph, torn and tattered and stained,
And fading to yellow in a brown leather frame?

Well, the sun's shining down on these green fields of France;
The warm wind blows gently, the red poppies dance.
The trenches have vanished long under the plow;
No gas and no barbed wire, no guns firing now.
But here in this graveyard it's still No Man's Land;
The countless white crosses in mute witness stand
To man's blind indifference to his fellow man.
And a whole generation who were butchered and damned.

And I can't help but wonder now, Willie McBride,
Do all those who lie here know why they died?
Did you really believe them when they told you "the cause?"
Did you really believe that this war would end wars?
Well the suffering, the sorrow, the glory, the shame,
The killing, the dying, it was all done in vain,
For Willie McBride, it's all happened again,
And again, and again, and again, and again.

Comic genius (hoho!) and creator for the superb 'V for Vendetta' comic strip (amongst others), Alan Moore- my number one reason for buying Warrior- panned the cinema violation of his work.

Sing-along-an-Alan:

 http://www.davidjonline.com/lyrics/vendetta_ly.html


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_for_Vendetta
 http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?article=2153

If you only spend £25k then you may as well spend £25, there isn't much improvement. The system I maintained cost ten times that amount but had a success rate of 97% or so, and had to read everyones writing. It made errors, but so did the operators, so do people doing it manually. The police used it, the exam boards used it. I am guessing it is closer to the DRS system. It did require operators to train it's 'fuzzy logic' and correct it's errors so it got more accurate the more it was used which will be a problem for the DRS 'one night' system which will have to have been 'pre-trained', although presumably is the same engine as was used in London.
I got quite into the technology but I remember being asked by a girl at an arts party what I did and being unable to explain it to her, or so I thought. Then she shot me down in flames saying 'So basically you make things go faster and more people unemployed ?' I think that party is when I started drinking too much. I'm sure she would agree with me, you shouldn't have computers involved in elections. To rig a hand-counted election would require thousands of people being corrupted. To rig a computer election you just need to be corrupt yourself. If I had realised at the time the Diebold system in the US then Jello Biafra would be President. Did you know one state had the exact same number of Republican voters as the pre-election published test data ? The exact same number - coincidence ? Computers in election don't save time, they just cut jobs and introduce uncertainty and insecurity. If you think how expensive elections are to begin with, the savings - if any - are negligable. I was hoping for an SNP win and we got an SNP win but I still want a manual recount. I am going to write a letter to both the SNP and the Electoral Commission, but I'll try and make it look more 'professional' than my posts here.

That was nothing compared to the idiot director that got a bargain (and a holiday) lot of laptops from the US. The only problem is that the 300 computers were US models and 100% unsupported in the EU. So on top of having to call an international number to get RMA numbers, we had to ship duds to the US and pay duty on each return. On top of this, the machines were 'B' stock (end of line and cobbled together with whatever parts will more or less work, instead of the parts on the orginal design schematics). The Li-On batteries had the life cycle of a mayfly.

I became very unpopular when I got sick of having arguments with Customs & Excise in Heathrow and sent the director in question a projected "cost benefit analysis" showing that the machines will likely have cost us £200k by the time they get retired.

And people have the cheek to say that capitalism is the staus quo because "it works"! In a non-hierarchical decision making process the fool would never have gotten near the chequebook let alone the aeroplane.

Anyway, good luck with the Electoral Commission. It occurs to me that approaching the SNP themselves may produce a mutually beneficial exchange of information. And they have money to throw at FOI requests.

The basis of the article is that voting doesn't change anything and that parties are institutions that cant be influenced.

Parties have become, in economic terms, vote maximization organisations. In political terms the media like celebrity and personality so the parties have become cults of personality and fan clubs for their representatives.

However most political parties are quite small. If 50 people joined a constituency party of either Labour, Conservative or Lib-Dems they could pretty much take over.Local elections have a turnout of 30%. This means a determined local campaign where non-voters decided to vote out someone will work.

The problem is that non-voters are militantly non-voting. They believe the cynicism about politics and politicians. Everytime they dont vote the result merely confirms their decision.

Politics is not about parties but people. However only the people who turn up have a say. Why will any sensible politician listen to the opinion of the non-voter. If they dont care why should he. Anyway they cant vote him out and that is the only real weapon the electorate has.

Lord Kinnock of Bedwellty, a Labour lord and former leader of the Labour party, better known as Neil Kinnock is a director of DRS, the company that counted the votes in the Scottish elections. Or rather the company that discounted 100,000 of the votes. It isn't exactly a conflict of interests, it is a perfect coming together of labour party interests.

Malcolm Brighton OBE, Chairman

Also a cushy remunerated NED at a health trust. I wonder who gave him his gong? I wonder which party he may be a handsome donor to.

 http://www.mkpct.org.uk/content.asp?ContentID=1047
 http://www.buckscc.gov.uk/bcc/content/index.jsp?contentid=2128386888
 http://today.reuters.co.uk/Stocks/OfficerProfile.aspx?symbol=DRS.L&id=335175
 http://cmis.milton-keynes.gov.uk/cmiswebpublic/NonElectedMemberDetails.aspx?PersonID=388
 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/court_and_social/the_hitch/article1102465.ece?token=null&offset=12
 http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmhansrd/vo060216/text/60216w13.htm

15% of the value of DRS has been wiped off it's shares just today, making them the worst performer on the stockmarket. Not only will they face legal action for the £9million, who will ever use them in future ? Actually, in the time it took me to write that they lost another 1.2% of their value, DRS are in free-fall. Malcolm Brighton OBE has 9,079,697 shares, so he personally lost close to half a million pounds today. I wonder how much more he will lose tommorow ? At least he has his cushy quango salary to fall back on. Until an independent Scotland issue an extradition warrant for him.

A DRS spokesperson optimistically described the fiasco as a 'temporary interruption to one small aspect of the overall process' ie the small aspect of counting votes. They were probably too busy counting their money to count the votes.


LONDON (SHARECAST) - Census and ballot counting firm DRS Data was today’s worst performer.
The company supplied electronic counting machines used at the elections for the Scottish parliament and local government, where results were delayed by system problems. “Obviously, in various places, serious technical failures have arisen to delay the announcement of results,” the Scottish Office said in a statement. “In the first instance, these failures must be investigated by DRS and relevant returning officers against the timing targets set in the supply contract.”
DRS Data (DRS) 31.50p -14.86%


A spokeswoman for DRS Data Services, which supplied the electronic counting machines, told the BBC that the delays were being caused by a "small issue" that technical staff were working hard to resolve."The e-counting system has not crashed. This is a temporary interruption to one small aspect of the overall process," she said.

Mr Townsley's over simplification of the article misses the point completely.

Sure you can vote him out after four or five years but only to be replaced by the same again.

Voting is not the only weapon the electorate has, we have the ability to demonstrate publicly and bring to the attention of the media the numerous defects in the system Better still we now have the internet to broadcast our concerns worldwide.

Politicians would do well to take heed of the 50% or more who do not want to vote for them if they are to avoid a meltdown of the sinecure they have enjoyed for so long.

"Sure you can vote him out after four or five years but only to be replaced by the same again."

Well, if you keep voting for the main 3 parties they will. But at people like UKIP and BNP have proved there is support for non-mainstream parties. And the less you vote the more power you give to these people (you increase their percentage and promote the idea that they are worth voting for.)

"Voting is not the only weapon the electorate has, we have the ability to demonstrate publicly and bring to the attention of the media the numerous defects in the system Better still we now have the internet to broadcast our concerns worldwide."

Politicians will only care about demonstrations if they look like damaging their careers. and even then their first response will always be a brutal response. And Thatcher made only TOKEN amendments to the Poll Tax after the demos, civil disobedience and riots. So, protest is in itself not a wholly effective tool, as important and crucial it is as a human right.

The media coverage of the protests is largely out of the hands of the protesters- although corporate news has tended to be improved in the last 10 years, but this can be erratic. And the Internet doesn't have as long a throw as people think. contrary to what people in small interest groups believe. For example the so-called Truth movement isn't worrying the lowest of civil servants. 19th Century Pamphleteers were more successful at getting their message across. Technology in itself will never effect a popular movement- public discontent reaching a critical mass does, sometimes.

Blair ignored the largest demo in UK history and went ahead with the Iraq invasion. He knew already that his mate Lord Goldsmith would cover his arse legally and I'm sure he would have replicated the Miners' Strike in terms of policing if the situation "worsened". And surprise surprise, he got elected again.

People would have stood a far better chance of deposing Blair if they had actually got out and voted against him and his party.

Boycott ensures that only the people who feel confident in the system have any influence on the system. As mentioned this is a self-fulfilling defeatist tactic.

"Politicians would do well to take heed of the 50% or more who do not want to vote for them if they are to avoid a meltdown of the sinecure they have enjoyed for so long."

We are bot far off that already, and politicians will just dismiss it as apathy. As someone pointed out, a boycott of voting is a mute protest. No-one will ever know that the turn out is a protest.

The system may be being run by a watered down continuation of the feudal system, but the mechanics of the system allow things to be different. so long as no-one participates in the system, there will be no opposition at the very point of where laws are passed.

If no-one ever voted NewLabour, Tory or LibDem again those parties would die. By staying at home, all that is happening is those parties are going to get the tax payer to keep them on life support.

Besides, what do you expect to happen? Some romantic notion of a "velvet" revolution? Nice idea but the reality of what happened in the Eastern Bloc is a lot less appealing. You are going to have the CIA pouring funds into the country to try secure a favourable regime. If any revolutionary attempt failed (as usually does at some level) then the regime will use instability to effect harsher restrictions. Fuck that, if I can help it!

Contrary to what some people seem to think, we are nowhere near a fascist dictatorship and police state yet. If you doubt me, then I suggest you do some reading on the subject. We are heading in a very worrying direction, but the direction is not set in stone and can be changed and people ARE opposing this direction. Public opinion on global politics is unrecognisable compared to even the time of the first Gulf War.

Sitting back and waiting for it to happen is stupid. Passively helping it along is worse than stupid. Positively willing it to happen by sitting on your hands and holding your breath like a spoiled brat, is completely suspect. I wouldn't trust anyone that suggested we have to make things worse to make them better.

Politicians only care about votes. They only fear votes against them. Don't play into their hands.

Real and lasting change takes time and the use of all democratic tools available.

You can't dismantle anything by huffing in a corner: get your hands dirty!

What do you do that's so great to change the world during the 4 years between your elections? Why do you naturally assume that non-voters just sit on their arses instead of documenting all the fuck ups, injustices, intimidation, lies, corruption, back handers and killings made in the name of your crap democracy? If you wannabe conned and exploited then go ahead and just vote and leave the day by day dissent to those less gullible.

"So all you happy voters out there.What do you do that's so great to change the world during the 4 years between your elections?"

Well, speaking for myself, over the past four years I've done about 100 criminal acts ranging from spray-painting to breaking into high security military bases, I've investigated and broken stories the mainstream hasn't, I've recruited at demos, I've copied and circulated thousands of anti-war CD's and DVD's, I've organised football casuals into scaring off anti-fash actions, I've tried to block the UKs petrol supplies, I've got some serious MI5 and fascist attention, I've...no that would be incriminating myself...I've learned to choose my words carefully. I bet your family have never been questioned by the cops over some IM post you are meant to have made.
And I am a happy voter cos it looks like I have just helped end my countries involvement in NATO and foreign resource wars, my countries nuclear power plans and nuclear deterent, while simulataneously killing the British state. Never mind the past four years, what did you achieve on Thursday ?

"Why do you naturally assume that non-voters just sit on their arses instead of documenting all the fuck ups, injustices, intimidation, lies, corruption, back handers and killings made in the name of your crap democracy?"

I don't. I don't see why you don't vote negatively too if you have the slightest negative candidate. Someone on another thread said their only candidates were Nulab/Tory/NuLib/UK-IP. If that was the case in my constinuency I wouldn't vote either but it isn't. I had the choice of four anti-nuclear anti-Iraq candidates, I assumed most people did.

"If you wannabe conned and exploited then go ahead and just vote and leave the day by day dissent to those less gullible."
So come on, either challenge my day-to-day credentials or tell me what you've been doing that is so much better ? Cos you know it isn't an either/or thing. I'm not saying you have to vote for ashitey candidate, but if you have some harmless candidate then vote for them - it only takes about a minute every four years.

for example:

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5254904.stm

One of the luminous 3rd wave. Been involved with other stuff that has been on the newswire recently...

But I'm an utter slacker compared to a lot of people round here.

What you been doing then, since you called up this pissing contest?

Post under your own pseudonymn and no other on one thread, and come up with a better action that has more to do with you to boast about, and keep away from me in terms of geography as well as the internet. You are fuelling noone, you are still stoking my family to the point I can't quiet them anymore. Do you want everything published - about you, about your whereabouts and 'friends' about that action you are so proud of ? That'd be the least of your worries after your betrayal. I respect the Campbells more than your Clan and I'm sick of you calling the cops on me. Before you respond, ask your sisters advice whether you should shut up now or not. She seems to give good advice.

And if you call me brother now,
forgive me if I inquire,
"Just according to whose plan?"
When it all comes down to dust
I will kill you if I must,
I will help you if I can.

When it all comes down to dust
I will help you if I must,
I will kill you if I can.
And mercy on our uniform,
man of peace or man of war,
the peacock spreads his fan.

Well done Danny. I accept that tactical voting is not a bad idea but it is still active participation in a system which by rights you should despise for the way it dupes, manipulates and exploits the People. Personally, it makes me feel dirty to be associated with it. So lets both keep chipping away in our own way shall we?

"I accept that tactical voting is not a bad idea but it is still active participation in a system which by rights you should despise for the way it dupes, manipulates and exploits the People. Personally, it makes me feel dirty to be associated with it. So lets both keep chipping away in our own way shall we?

I do despise it, and yeah, a bit dirty for supporting something I don't believe in. I never voted in the last election simply as I'd been appalled at labour party dirty tricks and other parties candidates ignorance and self-promotion though I had leafletted for an anti-war candidate in another constituency. I don't normally go for the lesser of the two evils argument but like you accept, tactical voting is necessary sometimes. It's the constant Iraq stories and the sheer self-serving shittiness of the UK government combined with the fact we did have an alternative up here. The SNP campaigned on local issues up here and it depends on a future referendum whether Scotland beomes more like Finland and less a region of the 51st state. At least we get the chance to vote on it so I will be working towards that. And seemingly the MOD are going to resite Trident just in case we do. Now with a Green environment minister up here, as seems likely, there'll be no new nuclear stations or dumping guaranteed, and less environmental mischief. And with a commitment to withdraw from NATO then the only Scottish troops abroad will be UN peacekeepers. At that point there will be a lot of protestors up here who suddenly have time on their hands. I don't know if they will work for true anarchy up here or move to England to help out there. I don't know what I'll be doing so I won't tell you what to do. You have to free yourself from the dominant world empire as surely as you have to free yourself from the state.

If the people who didn't vote or voted tactically all voted for small minority parties then where closest to their interests we would have a coalition government and the two main parties will loose power. Repeat this for several elections and you will have a democracy that works.

If you don't vote then because of the first past the post system your vote will help the two main parties. A party rarely wins with more than 40% of the vote , around 30% choose not to vote .

How can anyone tell the difference between a non-vote because you disagree or a non-vote because you are too lazy ?

I can't see how people can be activists and not want to vote , yes its a shitty system but its fixable
if we all muck in.

Toodle-pip
Amias

It means the government doesn't have to listen to people like us:
If the 20-something-year-old free party scene were the largest voting demographic out there, political policy would suit them.
It's not, it's 40 year old business men, so the government pleases them because they know we're all too busy sat on the sofa smoking weed.
This article only makes matters worse. It's fucking shameful.

The problem with voting for small parties is that parties are not given a level playing field. Parties do not have the same media exposure or the same level of funding. Nor does it make any difference which party is in power, the system stays the same. So lets all stop pretending it is a democracy shall we?

It is the voters who sit in armchairs and are shameful because they are only galvanised into action once every four years or so and achieve nothing, except merely replacing one party by another maybe. Dissenters dissent full time and are not nearly as gullible.

Thought I'd end this on a positive note, a tribute to our dear, departed leader.

Better late than never. Has anybody seen the film Brewsters Millions. Richard Pryor campaigns as 'NONE OF THE ABOVE' & wins the election. I'd vote 4 Rentokil 2 get rid of all Westminster party vermin!!