EDL Outnumbered in Manchester Protest

where fucking useless as always a large number had no numbers on. the cunts on hourse back where in real danger of injuring protesters as they dispersed using the horses to crush people against buildings

In fact the EDL were relatively well disciplined, and I saw no Nazi salutes, just the ubiquitous football clap and salute with both hands (which can look like a Heil), and heard few (if any) racist chants. They confined their protest to anti Islamic extremism surprisingly successfully I thought, and had placards saying 'Black and White Unite', and indeed there were a couple of black members in their ranks. True there were very few women. When we shouted 'fascist scum off our streets' several shouted back that we'd got it wrong, they weren't fascists, pointing to the unite placards, and their stuff about Sharia law oppressing women.

We all know that underneath this organisation there's a bunch of proper racist thugs (and the majority certainly looked the part), all I'm saying is that their public face is not this at all. Their stated raison d'etre, opposition to Islamic extremism, is something many will identify with. I myself am opposed to Islamic extremism, as I am opposed to any kind of fundamentalism. As anti-fascists, we need to be more intelligent in how we counter the EDL, as there were I think, quite a lot of people who'd come not because they were racists at all (or at least racist in the sense of white supremacists), but because they were opposed to Islamic extremism (all be it in a racist form, using racist assumptions about Islam). I had quite lengthy conversations with one person who claimed not to be a sheep, who rejected the thugs among the EDL and all they stood for, but wanted to come to their demo to express his own point of view about this.

This article is also slightly misleading in that it suggests that anti-fascists seriously outnumbered the fascists. At the beginning of the shenanigans, this was true, and we as anti-fascists felt powerful, in that the EDL couldn't do anything or go anywhere without hiding behind their police escorts. However as the day wore on, the balance changed and the power changed. There remained the two groups facing off in Piccadilly Gardens, much more evenly balanced as police brought in more groups of EDL they'd rounded up. Meanwhile, groups of EDL kept emerging, in groups of 30 or 40, and just marching round the northern quarter, seemingly wherever the hell they pleased, followed by loose cordons of police and rag tag bands of anti-fash who'd managed not to be cooped up in Piccadilly, but whose numbers were too small to be any effective counter to them. When the main EDL group left Piccadilly Gardens, they numbered several hundred. But there were scores more dotted in all the pubs around the area. Having said that, it is obviously difficult to know for sure whether a large gang of shaven headed blokes in a pub were the EDL or not, but that was part of what made me feel so vulnerable, feeling that they were everywhere in the city.

I left the demo feeling utterly demoralised. The fash seemed tactically quite well organised, hiding out in pubs, and emerging when there was enough of them to challenge us and take the streets. It was a good ploy on their behalf to suggest they'd be in town all day. It meant that there was really conflicting info for the nonaligned anti-fash ranging from a 9am call-out to 5pm. Everyone got tired, lots of people probably drifted off before many of the fash even came out of their drinking holes or arrived in town. The EDL supporters didn't think twice about walking among the anti-fash and debating with us, or standing in the middle of us asking for a fight and shouting slogans. Occasionally they did get a fight, and well done to those anti-fash brave enough to put themselves on the line in this way. The fash were all singing the same tune, literally and figuratively, while the anti-fash were all over the place. Half of us don't even like or trust the other half. The UAF are more organised but fairly ineffective for reasons that have been well rehearsed elsewhere. The rest of us were totally unorganised and unprepared to form any kind of effective challenge to what were actually small groups of fasicsts who therefore had control of our streets. We need to wake up and sort ourselves out. I realise that this group of hooligans, who've been well trained in fighting with the cops (and other football hooligans) present an intimidating force. But we've just got to find ways of dealing with it. The media have been kind to us this time, by suggesting we outnumbered the fash, or that they were run out of town. This was not my impression at all, and I think if the GMP hadn't been there in force, we'd have got our arses kicked.

no nazi salutes, rly?

 http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3483/4000064373_db3f71d971.jpg
 http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2452/4001122055_148427c0f9.jpg

i dont usually post on indy but this just seems like it needs saying AGAIN. the fash, a bunch of knuckle dragging pituitary retards they may be, stick together when the shit hits the fan. the left can never seem to form any kind of cohesive front on any given subject, especially antifascism. as an anarchist the state collusion of the UAF sticks in my throat but there needs to be some kind of dialogue between the UAF and militant antifascists.

although i couldn't make it to manchester for this demo and so cant claim first hand knowledge, if what was posted earlier is true, infighting and non-cooperation let a bunch of pissed up boot boys walk around the centre of one of the most multicultural cities in the country, if not unchallenged then at least ineffectually challenged.

i know all this has been said before but whats worse, the more liberal left (for all their bullshit) or the fash on the streets again?

Such as all those "precious" liberal values.

The BNP has gained power because they do not compromise in their project.

They have manipulated the "liberal toleration" to make themselves attractive. They have use "liberal free speech" to gain a platform. They have hijacked "liberal values" to gain power.

Realistically: the common theme is "liberalism".


It is time for the left to show disciplined adherence to a project or perish.

It is perfectly possible to be tolerant without being liberal. It is possible to promote free speech without free speech being "liberal". The BNP have spent years manipulating liberalism and the compromising, pettifogging, politicians that hide behind the very broad term of 'liberal'.

Fascists wandered around Manchester because the Police were protecting liberalism. Liberalism is, in its final analysis, a form of fascist accommodation. What is needed is militant antifascism - both brain and muscle. Which means militant antiliberalism.

Without 'liberalism' the BNP would have been beaten under the stones where they belong. They subsist, parasites on liberal values. In the same way that they have always done. Hitler was elected in a 'liberal' Germany. Antifascism must recognise the tools that fascists use: liberal accommodations - and address them. Antifascists must also confront the fascists where they feel most secure. Neither is a liberal approach to the problem.

I think 'Frank Gallagher' overstates the opposition a little. I, personally, know some VERY capable people that were out on Saturday. The main problem was the police presence. I was within feet of known nazis at some points, but didn't know whether it was wise to get nicked so early on. Some better communications could have assured I didn't......

We need to make the most of communications 'phone trees, twitter etc'. They will be doing, because they have spent ages avoiding the coppers. That is part of the game for them. That is why they turn out. It's a laugh.

But, like I said. Listen to that man above. Fascism emerged from 'loss', it is based heavily in nostalgia (the loss of 'community' due to individualism etc), it is NOT progressive. As a reaction to enlightenment values (the ideas of 1789) facists exploit that which they would crush in government. Liberals perpetuate that which they will always perpetuate blindly for the social 'good' regardless. Out of arrogance.

Think people. Nothing will happen on the internet.

Everything 'could' happen on the 'streets'*

* I use 'that' word in the acknowledgment that it represents anywhere beyond the screen itself. Not the actual streets themselves, as far as I can see they are owned solely by corporate interests (and on Saturday in Manchester not the EDL, not the 'left' but the Police)

Explain this

Some very good analysis above. I don't think it's being in any way sectarian to examine the role of the UAF on Saturday though. Many antifascists stood with the UAF because they didn't know what else to do, but time and again the UAF stewards stopped antifascists getting at the EDL or thumping them when they appeared, and even used the cops to help them police more militant antifascism, grassing people up on numerous occassions. This sort of behaviour is really nothing new though, and to be expected. We need to find better ways or organizing, with the aim being to stop the fascists when they attempt to take control of the streets, rather than simply to protest. We may have outnumbered the EDL, but they have been buoyed by their day out in Manchester. They'll be in Leeds next, a much smaller town centre, which the cops have been very effective at policing in the past. We get to get our numbers out again and try and learn from Manchester. Like Manchester, there are good, experienced, and organized antifascists in Leeds. Hopefully things will be different there, but it'll take a lot of planning, work, and effort on the day.

The article is pretty good, but the comments below I think are totally fair. I was there on Saturday and I found the day pretty frustrating and demoralising. The UAF/counter-demo had very little cohesion or any sense of a real plan - the EDL looked comparatively organised and had a clear message, however disgusting it was. And the main counter-demo always stopped short when they had a chance to confront the EDL properly, and allowed the police to reorganise.

There was no clear message coming out of the counter-demo. Chants of 'the BNP is a Nazi Party, smash the BNP' - how was that appropriate to this? We need something better than this. The EDL's message is fucking stupid, and the ones I overheard just seemed really thick and little more. But their views are actually a lot more pervasive than a lot of people think, that's why so many people came out of the pubs and joined them.

The point about the Asian youth was very well made - where were they? They were there in force in Harrow and Birmingham. And I think those that were there were propably pretty put off by UAF control-freakery.

We need better ideas - British anti-fascism isn't working!

Also, as an aside, I know the guys who do Mule - they're as critical as anyone about anti-fascism in the UK, but their reporting isn't generally aimed at a critical activist crowd, they do mass distribution in the city.

Let's be honest.

The behaviour of UAF was appalling. We need a new broad-based afa style movement, that takes its recruits from more than just the alternative 'scene'.

This needs to be extremely well organised.

I'm up for it.

Anyone else?

I was in manchester on sat with a anti-fash mate of mine from leeds, i didn't go for any political purpose but just to see what was happening. Me and politics don't go together, just the way i am. I was there for most of the day and seen the "scuffles" that went on, and the UAF "grassing" people up. What i said to my mate on the way back was that if the Police were not there your side would of got slaughtered, to which he went mad. But i'm going to reiterate my point on here. Your side seemed all over the place. There were to many little groups roaming around the place trying to out shout each other in their middle class accents, where as the EDL stayed together, even tho they are from diff football teams who would normally be kicking the fuck out of eath other. My point is, 700 seasoned football hooligans against prob a few hundred militant and very capable anti-fash and a thousand middle class school teachers and students plus UAF grasses would only come out in one result. your side getting smashed all over the place. I'm not here to troll, its just my indy non-political view on what i saw. I think you need to rethink your tactics, like someone said the casuals have been dealing with the police and violence for years and have the tactics and discipline where as your mob are a bit short sighted to it all and not as one. Just my opinion.

As i said earlier before this demo ( http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/manchester/2009/10/439291.html?c=on#c234167), the UAF are collaborators with the Labour Party, i.e the ruling Party.

You cannot build genuine anti-fascism by making alliances with racists like Tony McNulty or Afzal Khan. So it is no surprise that the UAF grassed people up to the police, who also facilitated the EDL's demo by bringing them into the Gardens to confront the anti-fascists.

The police helped the EDL confront us, not the other way round.

A new movement has to be built - one that is completely opposed to the racist Labour Party and their allies. Anything else is not anti-fascism let alone anti-racism.

There is sense in uniting against the fash and forming greater unity between genuine anti-fascists yes, but when some of the middle class liberal bastards can' t be trusted its difficult. Opposing the fash means giving them the kickings they want to hand out hard to do when some on your own side wants to grass you up.
Someone above said we need to have a group like the old AFA back to which I agree. If the fash are forming effective street level firms - even if they are just a BNP front - we need to do the same - without the control freakness/state kow-towing of the UAF leadership. We also need to form proper links with the ethinc minority youth as well, muslim, black whatever.
We also need to get into the communities where these bastards are organising - football, pubs, clubs, estates, whatever/wherever and let people know there is an alternative to these wankers.

i was there at manchester along with a few other local asians. I can only apologise for the lack of asian youth who were too quick to listen to the community leaders that collaborated with the police.

oh how i regret that day!!! The EDL for all their bullshit are just a nother group of facist thugs who once the protest was over, wandered the city centre trying to intimaidate 16 year old kids and old women with thier racist crap. Fortunately by then we'de managed to get a few of the asian and black lads out and lets just say some of the nazi cunts that weren't being protected by the police didn't go unnoposed.

i gotta agree with the antifa guys here, these nazi muppets for all their combat gear and hard attitudes, are a bunch of shitbags!

Anyway, my point is, we (the asian youth) wanna get more involved. I've emailed antifa yorkkshire so maybe we can get some guidance/leadership which will help us get a bit more organised and avoid the pigs from locking us all up everytime we sneeze at a nazi.

Fuck the bnp!

The 'EDL' could not gain any power on the streets without ideological cover. This has been granted by the popular witch-hunt or panic against Muslims. It is a mood generated by a sustained propaganda onslaught by the corporate media to promote our rulers failing 'war on terror' in Iraq and Afghanistan. Like in Orwell's '1984' our rulers always manufacture bogeymen to keep the population docile, paranoid and divided against each other. And today a frightened population facing recession and cuts are taken in - and the mood is exploited by hardcore fascists. The new found 'legitimacy' of the BNP and the street intimidation by the EDL are just two sides of the same coin, twin pincers of the same reaction.

We need to build new alliances between different groups to politically and culturally isolate the fascists of the BNP and the Muslim-baiting pogromists of the EDL. This requires both ideological and physical struggle.

The large drunken mob of EDL taking over a section of central Manchester on Saturday shows what we are up against. Griffin's appearance on the BBC's 'question time' will inevitably give confidence and a sense of legitimacy to every racist street thug to go 'p*ki-bashing'.

No matter how much the BBC help Griffin to appear moderate in the genteel QT debating chamber (he will denounce the EDL as thugs), the BBC elites appeasement of the BNP by allowing them on the panel will inevitably empower EDL Muslim-baiting mobs on the streets.

The EDL street mob holds up to society the ugly reality of xenohobia and Islamophobia. This is a matter of a clash of social forces, not just some refined intellectual debate. Societies, especially those facing economic crisis, often turn ugly, going into an irrational frenzy, with mass popular movements viciously scapegoating some minority group or other. That's the history of pogroms and 'ethnic-cleansing' in Europe and elsewhere.

The Islamophobic or Anti-Semitic pogrom-frenzy is an elemental force that seizes on whatever jutifications and rationalisations it needs, deploying or discarding them opportunistically. This cant be stopped as arrogant liberal elites believe, by scoring fine points with fascism's besuited figureheads in the debating chamber, even if we win the arguments. We can only win by mobilising an equally powerful counter-veiling social force - one that can occupy the streets and also point to resolving the crisis through a class struggle against the capitalist parasites.

We may soon face the attempt by its crazed leaders to march the drunken EDL hoologan mob into a mixed area, somewhere where Muslims live in significant numbers. When it happens, to stop the pogrom we will have to physically block the way - with greater numbers united from diverse communities and social groups. Thats what our side successfully did in the battles of Cable Street in 1936 and Lewisham in 1977. That requires a politics of physical force, with large numbers of people organised and militant enough to stand their ground.

But this physical force, while necessary - is not sufficient. We need to rebuild the counter-hegemonic alliances between different groups that have been successful in the past- alliances between the different lefts, organised working class movements, oppressed ethnic, racial and religious minorities, students, other minorities like Lesbians and Gays, young people and counter-cultures...

At the moment, Muslims appear Isolated and singled out. The right have won a propaganda war so that people fear 'Islamification'. Racist fears of immigrants and immigrant descended communities are given a new edge by a religious dynamic.

Todays pogromist swears to the media they are only against 'Islamic extremists' - but then carry banners against all mosques and shout slogans against all muslims. At the same time their ideologists claim that there is no such thing as a moderate muslim, and that in their view the whole faith of Islam is inherently terrorist!

Todays pogromist swear that they 'are not racist' because 'Islam is a religion not a race'. But as history shows, the persecution of a religious minority is just as much an evil, destructive and poisonous force for both minority and majority communities. Our argument is clear - today, Muslims in Britain form a vulnerable ethic minority, who must be defended if a civilized society is to be maintained in Britain.

But because Muslims are not only a racial or ethnic minority, but a religious one - then pogromist vigilantes like the EDL can hide beneath the cloak of our secular critique of religion!

We on the left have fought centuries old battles for freedom against kings, tyrants and priests, against religious obscurantism, sexism and patriarchy. Now the fascists attempt to hijack our past victories, hijack the language of secularism and feminism - and turn them against the downtrodden immigrant workers and ethnic minorities of the Muslim faith!

Alan Lake, the wealthy business man who claims to bankroll the EDL reveals his strategy. The Guardian commented that he appears to want to "build alliances with all groups who might fall foul of the strict Islamic code, including lesbian and gay organisations, other religions and ethnic groups and supporters of free speech".

At the same time Lake said that: “Football fans are a potential source of support. They are a hoi polloi that gets off their backsides and travels to a city and they are available before and after matches.”

So will this force of violent football hooligans, who are marching around Manchester bellowing 'God Save Our Queen' going to stand up for secular critique, for women's rights and Lesbian and Gay rights? Are they going to win the support of mainstream Muslims and isolate the extreme Islamist minority? Are they f*ck!

Once they have made their bridgehead, beneath a cloak of liberal secularism, then they will attempt to role back liberal secularism, attacking other minorities. They will also attempt to use Christianity as an ethno-nationalist identity, obviously ignoring the actual teachings attributed to Christ - of peace (sermon on the mount) or tolerance and diversity (the good samaritan).

We must therefore work within all communities to prevent the EDL and/or BNP building the Islamophobic alliance that isolates and singles out Muslims. This means work with secularists and humanists, womens groups, Lesbians and Gay communities, Christians, Hindus and Sikhs - as well as trades unionists and the broader working class. Leading figure for the Muslim Council appear to want to help, recently proclaiming that tolerance for sexual minorities like Lesbians and Gays is an Islamic goal.
 http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/oct/05/gay-muslims-support

And despite the Islamophobic propaganda of the BNP and EDL, reality will often break through. The professional liers and demonisers of Islam who inspire the EDL say that that the Muslims faith teaches conquest. Yet it is the West, for all its secular humanism and post enlightenment rationalism that has recently invaded and occupied two Muslim countries, Iraq and Afghanistan. It is not therefore what is found in some old book that reveals the truth - but what people actually do. Todays problems (and solutions) have their roots in political and economic crisis - wars, occupations and recessions - not in scripture - be it the teachings of Christ, Mohammed or Voltaire.

You prat there was no Nazi salutes, when football fans chant they always stick 1 or 2 arms up, its always been that way, and the single bloke you show so called giving a Nazi salute is with his left arm you doughnut.

If that were true (and it isn't) it would show just what a hypocritical coward you are Wigan Mike. No straight-arming it? But you're a proud Nazi aren't you? Or did the EDL have you holding one of their Israeli flags. Look forward to seeing you in Leeds wanker.

I'm trying to put together some research on the EDL to start campaigning against possible weak links in their infrastructure. Would appreciate any info on eg the following:

ISP and web hosting
Leadership and their connections, directorships etc
Links with BNP and other organisations
Funding
Finance, banking
Recruitment

Please send any info to  shutdownedl@googlemail.com

Ta