Police find Palestine flag offensive

JOHN ON THE SUBJECT THAT THE ZIONISTS WERE ABUSING AND HARRASING THE PICKETERS

ISNT THAT WHAT YOUR GROUP HAS BEEN DOING FOR THE PAST 4-5 YEARS IN MANCHESTER TELLING PEOPLE HOW ISRAEL ARE THIS AND M+S ARE THAT WITHOUT ACTUALLY LETTING PEOPLE KNOW THE FULL STORY.

ONLY LAST SATURDAY THE YOUNG(AND BRAINLESS)LAD WITH THE SPEAKER PHONE ACTUALLY ASSAULTED A YOUNG JEWISH LAD THERE WAS AT LEAST 3 WITNESSESS INCLUDING ME

THE LAD ACTUALLY COMPLAINED TO THE POLICE WHO THEN TOLD HIM TO SIMPLY GO AWAY AND STOP BOTHERING HIM

THIS OBVIOUSLY DISMISSES YOUR VIEW THAT THE POLICE ARE ON THE SIDE OF THE JEWS

IF THE POLICE WERE ON ANYONES SIDE JOHN IT WOULD ACTUALLY BE YOUR SIDE AS THEY SEEM TO WANT TO LET MOST OF YOU CARRY ON THE PICKET AND I SEE MOST OF THE FAMILIAR FACES WERE BACK ON SATURDAY..

A COUPLE OF THE COMMENTS COMING FOR BOTH SPEAKER PHONES ON SATURDAY
SEEMED TO BE FULL OF THE SAME OLD CRAP:

1)-MARKS AND SPENCER'S IS A RACIST COMPANY(FROM THE YOUNG ONE)

A)-HOW CAN THEY BE WHEN THEY EMPLOY PEOPLE FROM ETHNIC MINORITY BACKGROUNDS ON THE TILLS ON THE SHOPEFLOOR,AT THE CREDIT CARD APPLICATION DESK ETC ETC,,I BET A MILLION POUND THAT THERE ARE AT LEAST 20 SUPERVISORS/MANAGERS WHO WORK FOR M+S IN BRITAIN WHO ARE FROM ETHNIC BACKGORUNDS..THAT FIGURE IS PROBABLY FAR HIGHER

2)-THAT ISRAEL HAS SUCH STRONG MILTARY MIGHT YET THE PALSTINIANS HAVE VERY LITTLE,ONLY A FEW OLD ROCKETS ETC(FROM JOHN)

A)-JOHN BE SERIOUS THEY HAVE A ENDLESS SUPPLY OF UP TO DATE ROCKETS, BOMB BELTS, GUNS GRENADES THE LIST IS TOO LONG TO WRITE..THEY USE THE ROCKETS TO FIRE AT ISRAELI TOWNS KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE,THE SUICIDE BOMBERS USES BOMB BELTS TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS MANY OF THE ATTACKS COMMITIED BY ISRAEL ARE SIMPLY IN RETAILIATION FOR THE ATTACKS COMING FROM HAMAS AND ISLAMIC JIHAD..NOW ISRAEL IM SURE DOESNT TARGET CIVILIANS INTENTIONALLY..IM 100% SURE THEY TARGET THE MILITANTS WHO ARE FOREVER CAUSING THE DEATHS OF INNOCENT ISRAELIS..

UNTIL YOUR GROUP DENOUCES TERROR OF THIS KIND AND STARTS CALLING FOR REAL PEACE THEN IM AFRAID YOUR GROUP OF BANDITS WILL NEVER GET ANYWHERE AND THE PEOPLE OF MANCHESTER WILL EVENTUALLY GET TIRED AND TURN ON YOU..

You are racist John.

You hurl abuse at anyone who does not agree with you.

You are offensive.

You do use images designed to incite racial hatred.

Most people who walk past and have a limited idea of the Middle East see you posters and simply presume it shows that Jews cause trouble.

But even I agree that the police should not take flags. They should however lock you up (again) for being offensive

Palestinian flag... Star of David
..balck flag, red flag...

Stars n Stripes... Palestinian flag... Star of David
..black flag, red flag...

Adam,

Marks and Spencer's support to the racist ideology of Zionism makes it a racist company.

Hey, looks like the same old debate is going to start here too! I'm going to sit back and see what people have to say!

Boycott Marks and Spencer, Boycott Israeli Goods, Boycott Israeli Terror!

ADAM CONLON - " MARKS AND SPENCER'S IS A RACIST COMPANY(FROM THE YOUNG ONE)
A)-HOW CAN THEY BE WHEN THEY EMPLOY PEOPLE FROM ETHNIC MINORITY BACKGROUNDS"

Umm, really. I thought the "I'm not racist, some of my best friends are black" etc was now just a joke comment that no-one actually seriously used. Oh dear.

"THAT ISRAEL HAS SUCH STRONG MILTARY MIGHT YET THE PALSTINIANS HAVE VERY LITTLE,ONLY A FEW OLD ROCKETS ETC"
Compare Israel's military spending with that of the armed Palestinian militias and you get the picture. Dispute it and you're just fooling yourself with propaganda over budget details. The fact that we are comparing a State army with militias is telling in itself.
For someone to point any of this out does not mean they are condoning suicide bombings or missiles being fired over the border. If you think so, you are stupid. If you don't think so but say so, you're just trying to stir up trouble.

As to your comment that you're sure Israel doesn't target civilians intentionally - it's debatable, and we won't agree I think. I have with my own eyes seen the Israeli army targetting Palestinian civilians. Believe me or not, I don't care.

Peter Pan - you're just flinging unsubstantiated insults. Grow up. It's you who mentions Jews - John mentioned Zionists. Notice the distinction. Maybe you're racist?

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH - see below for details.

Anyone who has read up on it knows that Zionism is a political movement to control the region between the Nile and the Euphrates, and its what Einstein called '"Jewish fascism".

It just so happened that using the Jews became a handy way of achieving their goals. Many people behind zionism had a bitter hatred of Jews and were supporters of Apartheid and the Nazis, who of course provided more justification for moving Jews to Palestine.

Native Palestinians (of all religions) did not have a problem until their land was being appropriated by Jewish settlements and absentee landlords giving them preference. This was done with the help of the British military who broke a promise to the Arabs for help fighting the Ottomans. Israel is only given legitimacy by corrupt nations who help them to frame the oppression as protection and desperation as terrorism.

It is comparable to the 'religious right' being used to advance the cabal in Washington's plans of global control. Unfortunately religion and ideology has a habit of persuading people to justify all sorts of atrocities, by so-called Muslims, Jews and Christians. God's 'chosen people' would not take part in such behaviour, and anything else is working for his adversary. However, if the Palestinians had not resorted to terrorism by now they may have been resigned to the history books as a people. If Jews wanted to live there peacefully why did they feel the need to found a country based on national socialist and racist ideology there?

John supports terrorist attacks - sick

Zimmerman believes Israel would have wiped out the Palestinians if they did not resort to terror - mental and deluded, we would be living side by side in peace in two states by now.

Flag burning Jew - for you I feel pity, disgust.

You all have a major problem with Jews - an obsession - but as long as you carry on boycotting Jewish goods - we will continue to buy more.

By the way Zimmerman - the Washington Cabal - are you serious? protocols or what?

Jerusalem Post 26.01.05
Our World: Today's Jewish anti-Semites
By CAROLINE GLICK


In a recent poll, 62 percent of Germans said they were "sick of all the harping on about German crimes against the Jews." Two thirds of Germans said they believe Israel is waging "a war of extermination" against the Palestinians.
Jews often focus their attention on Holocaust sentiment among non-Jews to gauge anti-Semitic feelings. But while feelings about the Holocaust serve as an indicator of general sentiment about Jews, there are other indicators no less important or revealing.
Sensitivity about the Holocaust may tell us what a person feels about Jews, but it may also simply tell us what that person feels about dead Jews.
But let's say that most Germans did believe the Holocaust was a terrible crime. Would the German rejection of the Holocaust mean that the majority that believes Israel is today's Nazi Germany is less anti-Semitic? No, it would not.
Yesterday the UN General Assembly for the first time held a special session to commemorate the liberation of the Nazi death camps and the Holocaust. Does this mean that the UN, which devotes some one-third of its resolutions to condemning Israel, is no longer hostile to the Jewish people? No, it does not.
SINCE THE Holocaust, the rallying cry of Jews has been "Never Again!" But the enormity of the Holocaust must not blind us to its present-day mutation.
Today the vast majority of anti-Semites are not calling for Jews to be deported to death camps. They are calling for the destruction of the Jewish state and, as was the case in previous generations, they are seeking out and finding Jews like Karl Marx who share their hatred for the Jewish people and willingly advance their evil agenda.
This agenda is to again reduce Jews to a state of powerlessness where we will be at the mercy of the same world that either participated in or did nothing in the face of the extermination of European Jewry.
Today this is done by striking out at the main safeguard against such powerlessness – the State of Israel – criminalizing it as the modern-day incarnation of Nazi Germany. The role of Jewish anti-Semites in this campaign is to decouple the dead Jews murdered by the Nazis from the live Jews who live in, or support, the Jewish state.
Such a Jew was found by the British conservative magazine The Spectator in one Anthony Lippman. Lippman is actually an Anglican, not a Jew, but as the child of Jewish Holocaust survivors, he will do.
In a recent article, Lippman writes hypnotically about his mother's sufferings in Auschwitz only to explain that the job of Holocaust survivors and their children is to speak out against... Israel.
In his words, survivors have "a terrible responsibility – to live well in the name of those who did not live and to discourage the building of walls and bulldozing of villages. Even more than this, they – and all Jews – need to be the voice of conscience that will prevent Israel from adopting the mantle of oppressor, and to reject the label 'anti-Semite' for those who speak out against Israel's policies in the occupied territories."
ANOTHER such Jew is Tony Judt. Since the start of the Palestinian terror war, Judt, a historian at New York University, has been outspoken in his rejection of Israel's right to exist.
In a series of articles in The New York Review of Books, The Nation and The New Republic, Judt has led the charge in claiming that "the depressing truth is that Israel today is bad for the Jews," and that for Jews to feel good about themselves again Israel must cease to be a Jewish state – that is, Israel must cease to exist.
This perverse line of reasoning, whereby the only way for Jews to be happy is for us to again be powerless, has brought Judt under attack by prominent Jews who have exposed the anti-Semitism inherent in his argumentation.
In a new article in The Nation magazine, Judt takes a stab at responding to his many critics. The article is a ponderous attempt to argue that there is no relation between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.
On the one hand, he says that it is anti-Semitic to say that Jews control the US. But on the other hand, Judt allows that "contemporary US foreign policy is in certain respects mortgaged to Israel," adding, "To say that Israel and its lobbyists have an excessive and disastrous influence on the policies of the world's superpower is a statement of fact."
Judt allows that there has been a rise in anti-Semitism in Europe in recent years, but he blames this on "the policies of Israeli government." Echoing Anglican Lippman, Judt writes that for anti-Semitism to be dealt with in Europe, "Jews and others must learn to shed inhibitions and criticize Israel's policies and actions."
In Judt's view, "once Germans, French and others can comfortably condemn Israel without an uneasy conscience, and can look their Muslim fellow citizens in the face, it will be possible to deal with the real problem [i.e., anti-Semitism]."
Since the September 11 attacks Muslims have been called upon to decry the preaching of hatred in their community. It is argued that until Muslims themselves delegitimize the voices of hatred in their communities the poisonous message of jihad will continue to attract thousands to its genocidal cause.
The 60th anniversary of Auschwitz's liberation is a good time to call for a similar Jewish condemnation of hate-filled Jews and those that use them to advance their anti-Semitic agenda.
These are not legitimate voices. These are not legitimate views. They are the views of deranged Jew-haters which, if listened to, will do nothing other than pave the way to the next calamity.

What Jewish flag? I have never seen one and don't know one exists. Only an Israeli flag. I agree that symbolism is complex. I object to those people who think it is ok to put a Star of David and a swastika next to one another to make a point. I think this is racist. However, taking the Israeli flag and superimposing a swastika on it is the same as putting one in the middle of the Union Jack and makes the same political point.

Zionism is a form of racism

Supports of Zionism are therefore racists

PLEASE, check out the link below
 http://www.cinu.org.mx/biblioteca/documentos/palestina/ares3379.htm

FOR THE RECORD IVE QUESTIONED MANY ON THE ANTI M+S PICKET WHO SEEM TO CONDONE EXACTLEY WHAT IVE BEEN MENTIONING..

THEY SEE THE ROCKET ATTACKS AS SELF DEFENCE AGAINST APPARENT ISRAELI ETHNIC CLENSING AGAINST THE PALASTINIANS(YEH RIGHT)

THEY SEE SUICIDE BOMBERS S DESPERATE PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE(EXCEPT MAYBE THERE BODY PARTS)..

WHAT EVER YOUR NAME IS YOU CANNOT SERIOUSLY NO WHAT THEY ARE ABOUT UNLESS U R ONE OF THEM OR YOU JUST HAVE NOT BOTHERED TO DEBATE WITH THEM(PERSONALLY I THINK U R SCHNIDER)..


ANYONE WWANT A SPARE TICKET FOR UNITED GAME ON SATURDAY SEE ME OUTSIDE M+S AT THE COUNTER PICKET

TO VTI MEMBERS IT WILL COST £10,000,000 FOR THE TICKET

TO PEOPLE WITH BRAINS IL ACCEPT £25

Dr Martin Luther King Jr, at a Harvard lecture when facing an anodine comment from an audience member regarding zionism, responded by saying "When people talk about zionism, they mean the Jews, make no mistake about it".

You think that you know better than MLK?


Anyone who is sick enough to superimpose a swastika onto an Israeli flag clearly has no idea of the hell of the holocaust, the attempt to destroy a whole people in a machine of death - to compare this to the situation in the middle east is Orwellian Newspeak, a revision of history and anti semitism in its lowest form. In doing this you as low as David Irving. The only equation a Star of David should ever have with the Nazis is when we were forced to wear yellow ones. A situation which those who wish to destroy Israel wish to see again and a situation which would no doubt occur again on some scale, at some point in the future.

You just cannot accept us unless we are suffering - that is racism.

E&NP - if you hate England so much - why not go and live somewhere else? Iran perhaps - then you will really experience human rights at their best.

AM ISRAEL CHAI!

We are Arabs and Moslems who believe…

We can support Israel and still support the Palestinian people. Supporting one does not cancel support for the other.
We can support the State of Israel and the Jewish religion and still treasure our Arab and Islamic culture.
There are many Jews and Israelis who freely express compassion and support for the Palestinians. It is time that we Arabs express reciprocal compassion and support.
The existence of the State of Israel is a fact that should be accepted by the Arab world.
Israel is a legitimate state that is not a threat but an asset in the Middle East.
Every major World religion has a center of gravity. Islam has Mecca, and Judaism certainly deserves its presence in Israel and Jerusalem.
Diversity should not be a virtue only in the USA, but should be encouraged around the world. We support a diverse Middle East with protection for human rights, respect and equality under the law to all minorities including Jews and Christians.
Palestinians have several options but are deprived from exercising them because of their leadership, the Arab League and surrounding Arab and Moslem countries who do not want to see Palestinians live in harmony with Israel.
If Palestinians want democracy they can start practicing it now.
We stand firmly against suicide/homicide terrorism as a form of Jihad.
We are appalled by the horrific act of terror against the USA on 9/11/2001.
Arab media should end the incitement and misinformation that result in Arab street rage and violence.
We are eager to see major reformation in how Islam is taught and channeled to bring out the best in Moslems and contribute to the uplifting of the human spirit and advancement of civilization.
We believe in freedom to choose or change one’s Religion.
We cherish and acknowledge the beauty and contributions of the Middle East culture, but recognize that the Arab/Moslem world is in desperate need of constructive self-criticism and reform.
We are NOT:

Anti-Islam, Anti-Arab, confrontational or hateful.
We remember with deep sadness and respect the brave Arabs, known and unknown, who were killed or severely punished for promoting peace with Israel; a special thanks to President Anwar Sadat of Egypt who was killed at the hands of Militant and Radical Islamists after he signed the peace treaty with Israel.

We salute and commend Arab and Moslem writers, scholars and speakers, who found the strength, commitment and honesty in their hearts to speak out in support of Israel. We thank you for being the pioneers that you are and for holding such sophisticated and advanced views in the realm of Arab and Moslem thinking. You are inspiring us all.
A spirit of Tolerance…

This is a plea to all the good and wise Muslims and their religious leaders and Imams around the World to bring out the best in Islam and start a reformation movement and the re-interpretation of the Koran in the spirit of tolerance and acceptance and the right of both Arabs and Jews to live together in peace in the Middle East.
 http://www.arabsforisrael.com

J&P OR ADAM, you've done the 'HOW CAN YOU AGREE WITH MARTIN LUTHER KING' thing before. Try something new. And 'Arab pacifist' just goes back to Arabs for Israel, aka Nonnie Darwish, Sarah Elhazy et al, aka Americantruth.com or whatever it is called.

Instead of recycling this same old rubbish, answer this, why as Abbas (whatever any of us think of him) began his discussions with the Israeli state was the army still shooting at Palestinians, and killed a young girl who 'got in the way'.

again victoria you labeled me in your comments on recent posting

i dont bother using martin luther king quotes

never have done never will

i always knew what the origianl zionist belief was and that was the jewish state of israel for which there is no wrong in believing that.

my reply to your question about abbas is quite simply

WHY UNTIL RECENTLY WERE ISLAMIC JIHAD AND HAMAS ETC STILL CARRYING ON WITH THE ROCKET/GRENADE ATTACKS AND ATTEMPTING MORE SUICIDE BOMBINGS...

DO U ACTUALLY SEE WHAT GOES ON THERE OR DO YOU ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE CLOUDED INTO READING ONE SIDE OF THE STORY..

THE ONLY REASON ISRAEL REACT IN THIS WAY IS BECAUSE I CAN IMAGINE THEY ARE SICK AND TIRED OF THE PALASTINIAN AUTHORITY NEVER DOING ANYTHING ABOUT THE TERROR ATTACKS


VICTORIA CAN YOU NOW REPLY TO THESE 3 QUESTIONS

1)-DO U BELIEVE IN A TWO STATE SOLUTION
2)-DO U SUPPORT OR CONDEM ATTACKS MADE BY THE VARIOUS TERROR ORGANISTIONS IN PALASTINE
3)-HOW WOULD YOU SOLVE THIS CRISIS ANY IDEAS..

Typical flawed and biased logic from the Jerusalem Post. Israel does not represent Jewish interests, it simply hijacked therm for the ends of those behind it who are not Jews so they can fulfill a prophecy.

Zionism is not the same a Judaism and therefore anti-zionism/Israel cannot be anti-semitism, despite blind Jews thinking there is some sort of conspiracy against them and trying to link the two. Look at who was behind the creation of Israel (i.e. Rothchilds) if you want to see what its agenda is.

Jews are spiritual bethren, not a group of people with a specific piece of turf or a divine right based on their birth. The promised land is a metaphor. By supporting apartheid national socialism and military police state you are far from the promised land and shall forever remain a tool of Lucifer in his plan for global domination (read the bible).

My apologies for attributing the MLK comment to you. As I was not replying to you, I was therefore not asking you personally to reply to my question as to why the IDF continued shooting people, including kids, even as Abbas and the Israeli state began talks.

Indeed, you did not answer it. Instead you asked a series of other questions about what I think of 2 states, and the policies of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, which you describe as what they did 'until recently'. I am not asking about what anyone on any side of this conflict did historically or recently, I am asking about what Israel, while talking 'peace' did yesterday.

victoria thanks for your reply

i did ansewer your question about why israel carried out attacks whilst talking peace

my comments that i made gave the ansewer..israel carries out these "attacks" as you say in retailiation for various attacks on them by islamic jihad and hamas at innnocent israelis..

now im not defending what israel does in anyway shape or form as i believe both sides are too blame for this conflict dragging on the past few decades..

im simply stating why israel carries out raids in gaza and the west bank..

now i hope ive made my point clear there

CAN YOU NOW ANSEWER ME THE 3 QUESTIONS I ASKED OR IS IT ANOTHER "NO COMMENT"

PLEASE GIVE ME YOUR VIEW POINT AS I WOULD INTRESTED TO KNOW WHAT YOUR VIEWS ARE

NICE TO SEE A STATEMENT ABOVE FROM A ARAB CALLING FOR A END TO "PALASTINIAN VIOLENCE"

YES LADIES AND GENTLEMEN IT IS NOT JUST ISRAEL THAT ARE TO BLAME FOR THIS CONFLICT

EVER HEARD OF A SONG WITH A LYRIC "WHEN 2 TRIBES GO TO WAR"

THIS IS EXACTLEY WHAT IS HAPPENING OVER THERE

SO PLEASE JOHN ,,MRS MOUTH,,AND ANYONE ELSE WHO IS A VTI MEMBER

RECOGNISE THAT THE LONGER YOU CARRY THIS PICKET ON THE WORSE ITS GONNA GET FOR YOU

I am not refusing to answer your questions. The truth is that I have not decided what I think in response to them. I can see lots of pluses and minuses in the 2-state argument, and in the end I know that the people who will resolve the question will be Jews, Moslems, Christians and people of no religion, who live in the region.

The reason I am being insistent with mine, to you or anyone else who sees this as a debate in which they must put the case for Israeli 'self-defence', no matter how great the element of attack in that defence is, is simply that the western media has harped endlessly on about the death of Arafat and election of Abba being a 'new beginning'. Abbas was the Israeli state's preferred candidate. By shooting as soon as talks about talks begin, the message seems to be that Israel's view is that the Palestinians must lay down their arms but they do not need to, in fact can do whatever they want with them.

Not only do I not live in Palestine, but as you may have guessed, I do not live in Manchester either. However, I find your last comment frightening. Forget violence in the actual Palestinian/Israeli conflict for a minute. Are you threatening the Victory to the Intifada demonstrators in Manchester with violence, or have I misunderstood you?

Adams 'threat' should be treated with the contempt it deserves and reveals what really lies behind the Zionist 'counter-protest' to the VTI picket of M&S. However for those of you who have not had the 'pleasure' of meeting Adam face to face he is as they say in Manchester "not the full shilling".
Chris

FOR THE RECORD CHRIS/VICTORIA I WAS NOT MAKING ANY SORT OF THREAT OF VIOLENCE OF ANY KIND

IM MORE OF A FULL SHILLING THAN YOU WILL EVER BE CHRIS AS IM EDUCATED ENOUGH TO BE CONSIDERED MATURE FOR MY AGE(20)..THATS NOT JUST MY OPINION BUT THE VIEW OF OTHERS TOO

WHEN I MEANT THE LONGER THE VTI MEMBERS CARRY ON THE PICKET THE WORSE IT WILL GET FOR THEM...I MEANT AS IVE SAID IN THE PAST THAT EVENTUALLY THE PEOPLE OF MANCHESTER WILL GET TIRED OF THE RAMBLINGS AND TURN ON THEM..NOT IN A VIOLENT WAY..BUT THERE WILL BE COMPLAINTS MADE ,SO MANY THAT THE POLICE WILL EVENTUALLY HAVE TO SOMETHING TO PERMANTLEY REMOVE THEM FROM OUTISDE M+S FOR GOOD

IM NOT A VIOLENT PERSON, NEVER HAVE BEEN NEVER WILL BE.

IM THE SOFTEST LAD YOU WILL EVER COME ACROSS..I MIGHT ACT HARD SOMETIMES BUT ID NEVER HURT A FLY

I DEPISE VIOLENCE OF KIND EXCEPT METHODS OF SELF DEFENCE

I DESPISE ALL CORRUPT GOVERNMENTS AND RACISTS LIKE THE BNP AND NICK GRIFFIN

THEY ARE THE ONES THAT ARE"NOT A FULL SHILLING" NOT ME

I HOPE I HAVE CLARIFIED MY PREVIOUS COMMENT


ADAM

J&P.

When you choose to quote someone, PLEASE make sure you are quoting them correctly and the quote is genuine! please see below! if in future you do make quotes, can you please let me know where your source is, just out of interest!

also i'm not proud to be english due to the fact it links me with a country that has been responsible for the killing of over 100,000 Iraqi's. Let alone invading Iraq for one reason and one reason only, OIL
__________________________________________________________________________________________

This is the best framework for understanding how various exponents of Israel have used Martin Luther King Jr. to promote their cause.

Dr. King's expertise as a non-violent civil rights leader and visionary are unparalleled in U.S. history. However, that does not make him an informed commentator on Middle Eastern affairs or on the ideological facets of Zionism. As impressive as the references to his views on Israel may seem, this is a textbook example of Argumentum Ad Verecundiam.

Finding direct and published utterances by Dr. King about the modern Middle East and Zionism is extremely rare. A cursory review of dozens of books on and by the civil rights leader turned up nothing.

Nonetheless, defenders of Israel often refer to a letter by Dr. King. This letter is reprinted in full on many web pages and in print. One example of a quotation derived from this letter is:

"... You declare, my friend; that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist' ... And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews... Anti-Semitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently anti-Semitic, and ever will be so."

Antiracism writer Tim Wise checked the citation, which claimed that it originated from a "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend" in an August, 1967 edition of Saturday Review. In an article on January, 2003, essay he declared that he found no letters from Dr. King in any of the four August, 1967 editions. The authors of this essay verified Wise's discovery. The letter was commonly cited to also have been published in a book by Dr. King entitled, "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr." No such book was listed in the bibliography provided by the King Center in Atlanta, nor in the catalogs of several large public and university libraries. Soon afterwards, CAMERA, a rabidly pro-Israeli organization, published a statement declaring that the letter was "apparently" a hoax. CAMERA explained how it gained so much currency. The "letter" came from a "reputable" book, Shared Dreams, by Rabbi Marc Shneier. Martin Luther King III authored the preface for the book, giving the impression of familial approval. Also, the Anti-Defamation League's Michael Salberg used the same quotes in his July 31st, 2001 testimony before the U.S. House of Representative's International Relations Committee's Subcommittee on International Operations and Human Rights.

The bogus letter was further quoted by writers in prominent publications one would imagine armed with fact-checkers capable of spending the short amount of time needed to verify the primary source. Mort Zuckerman, the editor-in-chief of the U.S. News & World Report quoted the letter in a column (9/17/01). Warren Kinsella followed suit in an article for Maclean's (1/20/03). Commentary, which is known more for its ideological zeal than any appreciation for factual scruples, ran a piece by Natan Sharansky. He quoted the false passage as a block--some ten months after CAMERA declared it a hoax.

More recently, the Scholars for Peace in the Middle East (SPME) featured excerpts from the letter prominently on its website. Despite its name, SPME is an advocacy group seeking to bolster Israel's image on campus—a mission it claims promotes peace in the region. Ironically, right under the false Dr. King quotation is an announcement of the formation of a task force "dealing with academic integrity with respect to fabricating and falsifying data when discussing the Middle East." After one of the authors of this article informed SPME's director of the quotation's discredited status, he replied with hostility despite the simple verifiability of the claim that the citation is incorrect. After several exchanges he replaced it with another seemingly far-fetched quote:

Martin Luther King addressed the issue in 1968, in a speech at Harvard when he said: ".. You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' ...When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews... And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe...When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."

When a citation for this new quote was requested, he refused to provide one, leaving visitors only with its claim that Dr. King delivered it in a 1968 Harvard "speech." However, the language of SMPE's new posting strongly resembles their original one -- on account of the fact that it too comes from the same discredited "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend."

The first time the fake letter was quoted, it could have been a mistake, but to draw on different lines from the same fictitious letter is strikingly unscholarly -- as is the false citation of it to a 1968 "speech" at Harvard. Either this citation was invented or taken from another unspecified source--classic plagiarism, whether intentional or out of gross negligence.

SPME's reference to a 1968 "speech" at Harvard mirrors the details from a published account that appeared in two sources: First, it was in right-wing and ardently pro-Israeli sociologist Seymour Martin Lipset's 1969 article in Encounter. Second, it was in a January, 2002 San Francisco Chronicle op/ed by Congressman John Lewis, who knew Dr. King personally.

Lipset wrote in his essay "The Socialism of Fools: The Left, the Jews & Israel" about a "dinner" for Dr. King he attended. When one black student made "some remark against the Zionists," Dr. King "snapped" back, "'When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism'." The piece by Congressman Lewis also quotes this same remark though it is not clear if it is gathered from Lipset's essay.

Congressman Lewis claims Dr. King made this comment "shortly before his death" during "an appearance at Harvard." Lipset states it was "shortly before he was assassinated" at a "dinnergiven for him in Cambridge." This quotation seems on its face much more credible. Yet, SPME presents snippets from the fake letter while apparently citing this statement (a 1968 "speech" at Harvard).

There are still, however, a few reasons for casting doubt on the authenticity of this statement. According to the Harvard Crimson, "The Rev. Martin Luther King was last in Cambridge almost exactly a year ago--April 23, 1967" ("While You Were Away" 4/8/68). If this is true, Dr. King could not have been in Cambridge in 1968. Lipset stated he was in the area for a "fund-raising mission," which would seem to imply a high profile visit. Also, an intensive inventory of publications by Stanford University's Martin Luther King Jr. Papers Project accounts for numerous speeches in 1968. None of them are for talks in Cambridge or Boston.

While these points raise some doubt, let us assume that the quote is accurate.

This is where context comes in. One of the principal arguments of Lipset's 1969 article is that the split between blacks and Jews "stems much more from the American situation than from the Middle East Conflict." He identifies Jews as a dominating force within the civil rights movement. Black nationalist leadership wanted to distance themselves from Whites in the movement, Lipset argues. In Lipset's own words, he summarized what Black nationalists were saying: "We don't want whites, but we particularly don't want Jews, and we are expressing antagonism to Jews in the form of opposition to Israel."

Few of the articles that cite Lipset's essay mention this crucial context. One individual who did explore this, albeit crudely, still managed to contrive another Dr. King quote unimaginatively. Dr. Andrew Bostom, a medical professor at Brown University, wrote an article for Front Page Magazine (1/20/03) that was reprinted on former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's website. In it, he claimed that Dr. King had the "moral courage" to confront the anti-Jewish rhetoric of black left-wing and Muslim organizations. This is not to say that Dr. Bostom is a reliable source. Central to his article is a 347-word passage, which he attributes to Dr. King. He fails to cite a source for the outlandish tirade. A quick google search determined it was lifted entirely from original material on the homepage of www.yahoodi.com (which has a copyright date of 2002), plus healthy portions of the fake "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend." Dr. Bostom's article featured the least creative and perhaps most fraudulent doctored script yet: a patchwork of plagiarism.

Taking the context described by Lipset and Dr. Bostom to be generally correct for the sake of argument would shed light on the credible Dr. King quotes. If the movement he figured so prominently in was facing such a rift, his response was only natural. To borrow Lipset's analysis then, Dr. King's statement also "stems much more from the American situation than from the Middle East Conflict." Given his local political anxieties, Dr. King was hardly the kind of disinterested authority worth quoting on the subject.

As a note: the actual validity of Lipset and Dr. Bostom's views of that context is beyond the scope of this essay. While it is true that black nationalists, such as SNCC's leadership, became increasingly critical of Israel after 1967, it is not convincing that the motive was to alienate American Jews even if that was the foreseeable effect. An ardent internationalist for example would care more about linking oppressed people's struggles across the globe than they would about the relatively mainstream political movement for equality in the American polity.

Back to the main point: if the forged quotes reflecting Dr. King's views on Israel were accurate, citing him would still be classic Argumentum Ad Verecundiam. Where is the proof that Dr. King studied the region or its modern history? The dearth of then-publicized comments and writings on the region by Dr. King shows that it was probably not a subject he was well-versed on, nor did it appear to be a priority of his throughout his career.

Even the statements Congressman Lewis attributes to him are low in substance and high on flourishing rhetoric. For example, Dr. King stated that Israel is a "marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy." Referring to it as "marvelous" and an "oasis" sounds rather uninformed given the realities of military occupation and the forced exile the Palestinians have witnessed since Israel's foundation. They surely do not sound like the words of someone familiar with both sides of the story.

More significantly, as Tim Wise pointed out, Dr. King's supposed statements on Zionism came before the more than three decades of crippling Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and the 1987 Intifada that grabbed the world's attention. The Palestinian narrative was sparsely conveyed in the United States up to that point. There were few Arabs or Palestinians in the U.S. and fewer Arab academics, policymakers, and activists working with Dr. King. Wise also suggests that application of Dr. King's principles logically give way to more sympathy to the Palestinian side given the systematic inequality it faces.

That advocates of Israel have relied on fabricated and out-of-context quotations from a leading moral figure of yesteryear only underscores the absurdity of the general point that all opposition to a Jewish state in a diverse land is anti-Semitic. There are obviously many legitimate ways to critique Zionism. One quite reasonable observation is that after more than a half-century of conflict, the Zionist project has failed to bring the Jews of Israel peace and security--its raison d'etre. One might counter that this is due to Arab intransigence; the Palestinians should accept their dispossession. However, Palestinian opposition to this fate is an indisputable fact, and security was and is Zionism's key goal. This necessarily was an analytical failure on the part of the Zionists who assumed the Palestinians would blend in to other Arab countries while the later generations forget their past. To dismiss this argument--one that evaluates Zionism by its own goals--and every other critique of Zionism as anti-Semitism is not only dishonest but a cowardly evasion of meaningful debate.

This is not to say that all opponents of Israel are not anti-Semitic. Of course the Palestinian cause, like all movements, is exploited by those with other agendas, such as David Duke and Osama Bin Laden. Blanket statements in either direction are inaccurate.

The main reason why critique of Zionism persists is that whether Israeli officials like it or not, history as it is written and the actual land are still disputed by the millions of Palestinians who are refugees as a result of Israel's birth, the 3.5 million Palestinians living under Israel's direct military rule, and the Palestinians who compose 20% of Israel's citizens in second class status. If Israel was founded and developed on uncontested terrain then arguments against its existence would more likely be out of hatred against the Jewish people. For supporters of Israel to wipe away all critics of the methods and outcomes of Israel's foundation with the "anti-Semitic" label denies completely the legitimacy of the Palestinian narrative--the experiences and perspectives that never show up in Dr. King's imagined "oasis."

Dr. King, though long-passed, is still monumental in the continuing movement for civil rights in the United States. His legacy should be celebrated, and also critiqued constructively; it should not be falsified or stretched to accommodate a different agenda today. The context behind Dr. King's authentic statements on Zionism was unique to a particular domestic political moment in order to sustain a fragile political coalition. Beyond that, Dr. King never claimed any expertise on the subject, nor made it a frequent topic of his speeches or writings. Claiming that all critiques of Zionism are anti-Semitic based on the force Martin Luther King Jr.'s words on the matter fails as an argument on many different levels.

 http://www.searchingjenin.com/wire.php?articleid=20040118182914624

The quote Jewish and Proud said from MLK was from a 1968 lecture at Harvard and was said to a large audience.

The letter may or may not be fake, but MLK did say at the lecture "when people talk of Zionism they mean the Jews - make no mistake about it"

Adam is an intelligent lad - if you bothered to talk to him instead of shouting him down you may see this.

Israel is a beacon of light when compared to any of the communist bloc you VTI moronms hold in such regard; you clearly do not know the meaning of human rights - perhaps that is because your role models are Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Castro - great believers in freedom of speech

Perhaps that is why you will not talk to Adam, or why you think Arabs who support Israel have no valid view (after all they have only lived there and experienced the corruption of the Arab leadership) - maybe we sould (in keeping with Leninist/Stalinist ideology)fling them in Gulags for disagreeing with you.

Zimmerman - you are right - the Washington Cabal in league with the Rothschilds, the Masons and Illuminati conspired to brainwash the Jews to want to stop suffering holocausts, pogroms, inquisitions and expulsions and convinced them to return to their homeland to create a land where the word 'Jew' is not a slander. All for the ultimate aim of...allowing prats like you to develop childish conspiracy theories just like the Nazis did.


By the way - did you not see how sickened the public is with you. The Jewish community hates you - the British public hate you - go away

As we are quite well aware of the distinction between anti-semitism (which the Boycott M&S has opposed from the outset) and anti-zionism, here is the text of a leaflet we handed out to the many people who came to the stall on Saturday (despite the Zionist counter-protestors). I tink it is worth making public here too.

This week marks the sixtieth anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz by Soviet troops at the end of the second world war. The Picket of Marks and Spencer joins in the condemnation of the fascist slaughter of millions of Jews carried out by the Nazi regime.

We condemn as well the fascist slaughter of Romanies, Soviet citizens, Gays and Lesbians, Communists and other opponents of the Nazi regime.

We stand against fascism and racism, including anti-semitism.

We are for the liberation of all oppressed people, including the Palestinian people who have suffered too long under occupation.

To say never again to the horrors of Auschwitz means standing up against racism, fascism and national oppression today.

Dan or J&P

The quote that you take from MLK, does it come from the class day speaker of 1968?

I WOULDNT SAY I WAS BURSTING WITH INTELLIGENT KNOW-HOW

BUT IVE EDUCATED MYSELF THROUGH OUT LIFE WITHOUT EVER HAVING TO GO THROUGH COLLEGE OR UNI TO GET WHERE I AM..I AM ABLE TO MAKE VALID POINTS WHERE NEEDED AND IM ABLE TO TAKE CRITICISM WHEN ITS DUE AND FAIR

HOWEVER IT DOES SEEM A SHAME THE VTI MEMBERS DONT RECOGNISE ANYONE ELSE'S OPINION EXCEPT THEIR OWN....THEY CAN NOT SAY THEY HAVE THE ANSEWER TTO EVERYTHING AND NETHIER CAN I

BUT AT LEAST I CAN ADMIT IT WHEN IM WRONG..ITS SHAME THEY CANT

John,

The Holocaust was a systematic attempt to destroy European Jewry. In Eastern Europe it was obliterated. Across Europe we were tertiated.

The number of Jews killed is so large that it is incomprehensible.

To compare this to the situation in the territories is demonstrative of your lack of knowledge and respect.

In the territories a war has taken place between Israel and terror groups. Israel has fought the groups who hide in civilian areas and unfortunately civilians have died.
The terror groups have targeted citizens and Israel has sought to stop the attacks.

3000 Palestinians have died - most were members of terror organisations (though as I say, sadly some were not). Over 1000 Israelis have died, mostly civilians.

Does that sound like Aushwitz to you? Does that sound like a systematic slaughter designed to eliminate a whole people? Or is it a country protecting its people and being criticised for it by a group of obsessive airheads who feel that the Jews should only be tolerated when suffering?

Remember John - it was the cry of the Arabs to 'push them (the Jews) into the sea' and that Haj Amin Al Hussaini asked Hitler to send Eichman to advise on the setting up of death camps in Haifa and in the Negev.

ADAM, WE HAVE VIDEO FOOTAGE OF YOU ON THE M&S PICKET SHOUTING 'FREE PALESTINE' AND 'VICTORY TO THE INTIFADA'. A WEEK LATER YOU WERE WITH THE ZIONISTS. AND DON'T GIVE ME THAT BULL ABOUT YOU 'SEEING BOTH SIDES', YOU ARE WITH THEM EVERY WEEK GOING ON ABOUT PALESTINIAN 'TERRORISTS', YOU ARE AS MUCH A FASCIST AS YOUR ZIONIST FRIENDS... FAT BOY.

Despite all the Holocaust commemorations, the memory of that event really does appear to be fading in Europe.

That is why people like John are now able to do what they do best and re-write history.

Increasing numbers of younger Europeans have no real sense of what the Nazis did. In Britain, Prince Harry isn't the only one who's oblivious to the realities of Nazi tyranny. A BBC poll of 4,000 people taken late last year, in the run-up to Holocaust Remembrance Day last Thursday, showed that, amazingly, 45 percent of all Britons and 60 percent of those under 35 years of age had never heard of Auschwitz

That is why people like John are able to twist the reality to dare to compare it to the situation in the middle east.

This faltering awareness of the most vivid example of racist mass murder in the 20th century is accompanied by enduring anti-Semitism. A poll in Italy last year, for example, by the Eurispes research institute showed 34 percent of respondents agreeing strongly or to some extent with the view that "Jews secretly control financial and economic power as well as the media."

That is why morons such as Zimmerman are able to preach their silly conspiracy theories.


ADAM - Do not rise to that comment from 'Someone who knows' - You had listened only to one side and were with the VTI. Then you did something that these people are incapable of doing and actually listened to the other side.
Then you did something very un-communist and dared to make up your own mind.

Do not worry about his last comment - the VTI are the strangest looking group of social misfits who have ever darkened the earth. If they had a beauty competition nobody would win!

The VTI supporters who belong to the Revolutionary Communist Group support regimes where making up your own mind or thinking the wrong thoughts are punishable by imprisonment, banishment to Gulags or even death. Tens of millions have died under communist regimes. Some for being born into the wrong class, others for clinging to religeous beliefs, others for wanting to speak out and other for no reason whatsover. Yet these people still believe that Israel is the biggest perpertrator of human rights abuses. Perhaps they should look a little closer to home.


Lenin suggested hanging opponents from lamp posts, Stalin killed 10 million, Mao led his country into famine and ran purges which led to hundreds of thousand of deaths, Castro filled his prisons with dissidents, Che Guevera machine gunned deserters, Xiaoping had 1.2 million killed in Tibet and massacred students in Tianamen Square for daring to speak out, North Korea is closed off and imploding with hundreds of thousands arrested, dissapeared, starving and suffering from disease.


But Israel are the real bastards aren't they - because they dare to win wars, because we do not lie down and take a beating anymore, because we took land in war from where we were repeatedly attacked, because we tried to give it back but Egypt said no in 1978 to Gaza and Jordan did not want the West Bank back, because Arafat was offered the land by Barak with East Jerusalem, Gaza, 97% of the West Bank and a 3% land swap and said no because he wanted it all, because we dare to fight terrorsism, because we want to be able to have a coffee or go to a disco or shop in a market or get on a bus without fear of having our lives cut short!

We are the only country in the middle east where being gay is not a crime, where women can wear what they want, where you can follow any religion, where you can speak your mind, where you can hold your own views. Bastards arent we?

We made the desert bloom and tuned swamp land into farms and then were attacked for the land in the twenties until 1948, then we were attacked so we could be pushed into the sea by men led by a friend of Hitler - and we won ! What Jews won - how dare we?

We plant trees - terrorists plant bombs.

We want our children to be doctors - terrorists want theirs to be suicide bombers

we have repeatedly tried to make peace and have done so with Egypt and Jordan; with wom do we make peace now? Hamas, Hizbollah, Al Aqsa?

Every argument the VTI put forward reeks of double standards which they do not apply to any other nation. It stinks of hypocracy when compared to the causes they champion. They go to such extraordinary lengths to convince us that they are not anti-jewish, yet they have our scrap of land (8 miles wide) under a microscope applying different standards than they apply to anyone else.

The VTI are racist and apologists of terrorism!

I AM NOW GETTING INSULTS FROM THE GUY WHO SMOKES DOPE 24/7

YES ITS TRUE I WAS SHOUTING FREE PALESTINE AT ONE POINT

NEVER SHOUTED "V T T I" AS AT THE TIME I DIDNT EVEN KNOW WHAT THAT BLEEDING MEANT

YOUR JUST FULL OF THE SAME BULLSHIT THAT YOU DOPE SMOKERS ARE KNOW FOR

I KNOW EXACTLEY WHO U R BY READING THE LANGUAGE OF YOUR COMMENTS

THERE IS ONLY ONE VTI MEMBER WHO EVER CALLS ME FAT BOY

SO U KNOW WHO YOU ARE

JUST MAKE SHURE YOU STAY AWAY FROM ME OTHERWISE MY FAT ARSE WILL CRUSH YOUR UGLY FACE.

Dan makes his usual insightful and sharp points. Unfortunately he seemed to have forgotten the recent survey which the Jewish Telegraph found so outrageous. The one that said the majority of the British people were opposed to Israeli terror. Or it could be Dan just missed it, he was of course doing his Iraeli Army reserve duty in January. Helping boost the Israeli terror industry no doubt.

Chris - you refer to a debate infront of 600 - that is not the entire UK population. What is it meant to show? Any such debate can only be non representational of a population as tickets are only to be sold to and bought by a small section of the population.

I am informed that the internet poll was 90% against the motion.

'Somebody who knows' lay off the dope - Adam is right - you cant even talk reasonably with him when all he wants is to try to understamd both sides without being shouted at.


Chris - the points made by J&P stand unanswered - how can you stand for communist causes which have lead to over 20 million deaths, disapearances,imprisonments without trial etc and consider Israel to be a pariah state - you cannot stick the Jewish state under a microsope and apply different standards and not expect us to see anti semitism shine right through it.

George Orwell once wrote,

It's not a matter "if the war is not real, or if it is. Victory is not possible. The war is not meant to be won, but it is meant to be continuous." ... "A hierarchical society is only possible on the basis of poverty and ignorance, this new version is the past and no different past can ever have existed. In principle the war effort is always planned to keep society on the brink of starvation. The war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects and its object is not the victory over either Eurasia or east Asia but to keep the very structure of society in tact."

When you take into account what is happening between Israel and Palestine, this quote shows the reality of what is going on. Not just between Israel and Palestine, but the world as a whole!

Regarding Israel and Palestine. The whole situation is purely political, and has nothing to do with Judaism and Islam, or any other religion i might add. How can some defend a country that, when they attack those that have called a ceasefire (tempary or not) clearly have a "dodgy" outlook on the situation.

J&P and/or Dan, can you please answer e&np question regarding the MLK quote, as seen below.

MLK Speech

31.01.2005 16:54
Dan or J&P

The quote that you take from MLK, does it come from the class day speaker of 1968?

e&np

Peace and Love

It was the quote Congressman Lewis read out - it was 1968 - it was genuine and has nothing to do with the letter.

So stop trying to re-write history - you could work in the ministry of truth.

Also your analogy is crass at best. You still singularly fail to answer why you believe Israel to be worse than the communist countries cited who have slaughtered millions, imprisoned with no trial and banned freedom of speech, religion and thought.

We know the answer - do you have the balls to admit it?

...as i never attempting to answer it! So how have a failed to attempt to answer a question is wasn't even answering? PLEASE EXPLAIN THAT TO ME!

Also, first MLK said the quote that you quoted him for saying (which you miss quoted, doesn't help), and then it was Congressman Lewis! Please make your mind! OK, maybe i'm bit of a perfectionist!

Ok, seriously now!

My analogy was about Capitalism/Imperialism at it's need for war. Imperialism needs conflicts like those in Iraq and between Israel and Palestine to serivce and keep the working class oppressed.

So, i get the impression that you feel the ONLY country that CAN NOT be criticized is Israel!

So.....

is it ok for a country to still attack people who have called a ceasefire?

is it ok for people to be oppressed?

Feel free to answer these! if you choose to not to answer these J&P, you haven't fail to ATTEMPT to answer them! The same goes for anyone else!
___________________________________________________________________________________________

Albert Einstein, one of the best-known Jews in the world, view on Zionism: "I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain, especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks."

The many Jews who embraced socialism opposed Zionism as a form of reactionary nationalism. The General Jewish Labor Union, or Bund, which represented socialist Jews in eastern Europe, was strongly anti-Zionist.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

The quote was by MLK and later read out by Lewis in Congress.

Palestinian terror groups have broken practically every cease fire to date. Kassam rockets are still being fired at Israeli schools by rogue groups - does that sound like respect of a cease fire? Or does it not count if the rockets merely kill Israeli kids?

Israel should be criticised - quite right - that is a hallmark of any liberal, pluralistic democracy.

However the microscopic criticism of everything Israel does, often out of context and certainly with no regard to wider circumstances and the singling out for constant attack when the human rights record, civil liberties and wonderful offerings Israel has given to the world at large and less well off countries in particular, far outshine many other states.

Particularly these records are better than all other countries in the middle east and each communist state.

Can you be gay in Iran and live without fear?
Can you go out in a short skirt in Iraq and not risk being stoned?
Can you say Assad is a lunatic in Syria and not have your door kicked in at three in the morning by secret police in Syria?

You can do these in Israel.

Can you criticise your leadership in China and not risk never seeing your family again?
Could you practice religion freely in the Soviet Union? No way

You can do these in Israel.

And yet you constantly single us out for criticism.

I know why you do - but humour me tell me yourself, WHY?

Most people who support the Palestinians are not communists but are genuinely concerned about what Israel (as a state not a religious group) has done to the Palestinians.

Lots of regimes around the world have oppressive governments (the USA still has the death penalty, which is mainly used against Blacks & Hispanics). But it is a very different thing when a country oppresses another (even the UN makes that distinction!) That's why so many people were opposed to the Coalition forces attack on the evil regime in Iraq.

It is no good defending Israel by attacking the Soviet Union (which, by the way, doesn't exist any more - try reading the newspapers more often). Israel continues to attack and oppress the Palestinians today and continues to prevent them living their own peaceful lives in their own land alongside their fellow Semites

It is just silly to keep saying these protestors are obsessed by Jews and are anti-Semitic without any evidence or explaination. Many of them are involved in lots of campaigning on other issues and have fought against racism, fascism and anti-semitism. And they are not along in criticising Israel actions. Is the UN anti-Semitic? is the peace movement anti-Semitic? Is Gerald Kaufman anti-Semitic? Am I anti-Semitic?

Peter,

The comments re the Soviet Union were past tense (unlike the comments re China - attention to detail my boy)

I have no idea if you are anti semitic

Kaufman is a self hating Jew - fuel for anti semites

The VTI group is run by the communist revolutionaries group

But yes others are opposed to Israel too.

So when one group of people attack another it is worse? not sure if that is true (especially if you are the one being attacked) but then would you have opposed the Israelis being attacked (when heavily outnumbered) in 1948 or on Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the year when Syria threw 4000 tanks accross the border - I doubt you would have done.

When Israelis die in terror attacks aimed at civilians, on buses, cafes, discos - should this not also be condemned.

When China killed 1.2 million Tibettans - why do you not oppose that so vocally.

I believe that the obsession with israel is evidence of anti semitism, singling her out at every opportunity when compared to other nations we are way up on this list. We offer full rights to our citizens, we are the only democracy in the middle east
Women are not oppressed, you can be gay, worship who you want - name one other mid east country where you can be gay and not risk death or criticise your leader and not be attacked.
Yet always Israel is singled out for boycotts and UN condemnation - that is evidence of anti semitism.
The left can only put up with Jews if scattered and weak - that is anti semitism

I think many reasonable people will find your attack on Gerald Kaufman as a "self hating Jew" highly offensive and show how extreme you are.

To equate any criticism of Israeli policy with anti-semitism exposes the real agenda of your counter-protest. Attacking communists and accusing them of being obsessed with the Jews is just a smoke screen for your real attack on all those who criticise the Israeli government - whether Jewish or not.

It adds credibity to the accusations that you do target Jewish people on the picket - which I think is anti-semitic (if done only because they're Jewish).

The big problem you have is that you seek only to stop debate and discussion of the issue, which (even if one-sided) is what the VTI lot are offering. Instead of preventing their protest why don't you join them and offer the case for Israel (as you seem keen to argue here) to the people of Manchester and let them make-up their own minds?

J&P

The Palestinian resistane only broke their ceasefire AFTER continuted attacks by Israeli forces.

Kinda ironic that i post this on the day that Mahmoud Abbas and Ariel Sharon call a "truce"!
Is Abbas working for the Palestinians or to keep Israel happy! There is a difference!

Lets see what happens within the foreseeable future!

Why Zionism today is the real enemy of the Jews
Avi Shlaim, The Electronic Intifada, 4 February 2005

Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish people and the state of Israel is its political expression. Israel used to be a symbol of freedom and a source of pride for the Jews of the Diaspora. Israel's mistreatment of the Palestinians, however, has turned it into a liability and a moral burden for the liberal segment of the Jewish community. Some Jews, especially on the left, would go even further by linking Israel's behavior to the upsurge of the new anti-Semitism throughout the world.

Israel's illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories since 1967 is the underlying problem. Occupation transformed the Zionist movement from a legitimate national liberation movement for the Jews into a colonial power and an oppressor of the Palestinians.

By Zionism today I mean the ideological, ultra-nationalist settlers and their supporters in the Likud-led government. These settlers are a tiny minority but they maintain a stranglehold over the Israeli political system. They represent the unacceptable face of Zionism. Zionism does not equal racism, but many of these hard-line settlers and their leaders are blatant racists. Their extremism and their excesses have led some people to start questioning not just the Zionist colonial project beyond the 1967 borders but also the legitimacy of the state of Israel within those borders. And it is these settlers who also endanger the safety and well-being of Jews everywhere.

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon personifies this xenophobic, exclusive, aggressive and expansionist brand of Zionism. One of the greatest accolades in Judaism is to be a rodef shalom, a seeker of peace. Sharon is not that by any stretch of the imagination. He is a man of war and the champion of violent solutions.

Sharon's purpose is politicide: to deny the Palestinians any independent political existence in Palestine. His plan for withdrawal from Gaza is called "the unilateral disengagement plan." It is not a peace plan but a prelude to the annexation of large chunks of the West Bank to Israel. Sharon, the unilateralist par excellence, is a Jewish Rambo - the antithesis of the traditional Jewish values of truth, justice and tolerance.

Sharon's government is waging a savage war against the Palestinian people. Its policies include the confiscation of land; the demolition of houses; the uprooting of trees; curfews, roadblocks and 736 checkpoints that inflict horrendous hardships; the systematic abuse of Palestinian human rights; and the building of the illegal wall on West Bank, a wall that is as much about land-grabbing as it is about security.

It is this brand of cruel Zionism that is the real enemy of what remains of liberal Israel and of the Jews outside Israel. It is the enemy because it fuels the flames of virulent and sometimes violent anti-Semitism. Israel's policies are the cause; hatred of Israel and anti-Semitism are the consequences.

There has been much talk in recent years about "the new anti-Semitism." The argument, in a nutshell, is that the resurgence of anti-Semitism has little or nothing to do with Israel's behavior. Anti-Zionism is merely a surrogate, so the argument runs, for bad, old-fashioned anti-Semitism.

These arguments need to be addressed. First: What is anti-Semitism? Isaiah Berlin defined an anti-Semite as "someone who hates Jews more than is strictly necessary!" This mischievous definition has the merit of applying to all anti-Semitism, old as well as new.

But we need to look beyond the labels. Is there a lot of classic anti-Semitism about? Yes. Is anti-Semitism spreading in Europe? Yes, at an alarming rate. Do some people use anti-Zionism as a respectable cover for their despicable Judeophobia? Alas, yes again. What is the relative weight of hatred of Israel on the one hand and Judeophobia on the other in the making of the new anti-Semitism? I don't know.

What I do know is that a lot of decent people, without any anti-Semitic baggage, are furious with Israel because of its oppression of the Palestinians. There is simply no getting away from the fact that attitudes toward Israel are changing as a result of its own shift towards the Zionism of the extreme right and of the radical rabbis. During the years of the Oslo peace process, Israel was in fact the favorite of the West because it was willing to withdraw from the occupied territories.

Israel's image today is negative not because it is a Jewish state but because it habitually transgresses the norms of acceptable international behavior. Indeed, Israel is increasingly perceived as a rogue state, as an international pariah, and as a threat to world peace.

This perception of Israel is a major factor in the recent resurgence of anti-Semitism in Europe and in the rest of the world. In this sense, Zionism today is the real enemy of the Jews. It is a tragedy that a state that was built as a haven for the Jewish people after the Holocaust is now one of the least safe places on earth for Jews to live in. Israel ought to withdraw from the occupied territories not as a favor to the Palestinians but as a favor to itself and to world Jewry for, as Karl Marx noted, a people that oppresses another cannot itself remain free.

 http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article3599.shtml

Israel did not break the ceasefire - kassam rockets were being fired at Israeli nurseries.

Should that be allowed?

Should Israel not protect kids?

Of course not!

Anyway, now there is a chjance for peace - please God we will have it and then you will have to find other terrorist groups to glorify.

Anon - this idea that terrorism is the enemy of the Jews is a myth. There are many enemies of the Jews throughout history; communists, Nazis, catholics and many others, who as nations or for religious reasons have sought to destroy us.

If there is no Israeli state, we are dependant on the good will of other nations and peoples and must live hoping to be accepted and not turned on.

Israel protects us and offers a scrap of land in a world which has shown hostility to us for over 2000 years, where the word 'Jew' is not a slander.

Suggesting that we should live unprotected and weak and praying that we are tolerated is therefore anti-semitic.

I am proud that Marx and Einstein, to name just two, were Jews.

I am proud that a majority of the central committee of the Bolshevik Party at the time of the Russian Revolution were Jews.

I am proud of all the British communist Jews who fought in the civil war in Spain in the 1930s.

I am proud of all the Jews in the US and apartheid South Africa who joined movements for civil rights and took up arms against racism.

I am not proud of Israel and its isolationist, nationalistic, quasi-religious, pro-imperialist attempt to dominate the Middle East and exploit world Jewry with its 'right of return' policy, whilst excluding the return of Palestinians to the land they left far more recently than the family of any European Jew did.

Don't you dare call me self-hating. You are proud of Israel but you don't have a monopoly on pride in Jewish history, culture or struggle.

J&P,

1. At what point have i said that Israel argee to a ceasefire before 8th Feb 2005? Did i ever say that Israel had? i never did, never have! I said, and i quote myself :-

"is it ok for a country to still attack people who have called a ceasefire?"
04.02.2005 01:15

and

"The Palestinian resistane only broke their ceasefire AFTER continuted attacks by Israeli forces."
08.02.2005 15:11

And to make it COMPLETELY CLEAR,

When the Palestinian Resistance groups (Hamas and Islamic Jihad) declear a ceasefire at the end of January 2005, ISRAEL DID NOT DECLARE A CEASEFIRE! Israel CONTINUED ATTACKS ON PALESTINIANS! Israel on DECLEARED TO HAULT ATTACKS ON PALESTINIANS ON 8th Feb.2005!

The attacks that Israel carried out attacks on Palestinians during the period when Palestinian Resistance group called their ceasefire and when Israel and Abbas agreed a "truce", did not and does not help to the image of Israel.

2. At no point in my comments yesterday did i say the TERRORISM IS THE REAL ENEMY OF THE JEWS?

I said and i quote myself:

"Zionism is the real enemy of the Jews"
10.02.2005 01:22

not as you said, and i quote you:

"...terrorism is the enemy of the Jews..."
10.02.2005 09:39

I'll end here with one more thing you've said, and i use it as a compliment despite our differing political perspectives on this world we both live in, and i quote:

"attention to detail my boy"
04.02.2005 15:07

Anon - I made my point clearly - you want us to rely on the tollerance of other nations and people.

We have done that before and East European Jewry was wiped out.

Now we have a scrap of land where you will not face pogroms and the holocausts of the wicked and where we are not called 'yids' on the school buses.

TO deny us that can only be anti-semitic.

Your points about the ceasefire were crass at best. That was like hitting someone and saying 'don't hit me back' - Israel agreed to a ceasefire when Abbas showed he was capable of making serious efforts to keep to it. Israel has agreed to only target those caught attacking on en route to an attack.
That is a ceasefire and I pray it works. It is not asking the people whose civilians are targeted by terrorists to sit back and do nothing while further attacks were plainly being planned.

RK - you are a little pawn in a big game. Those who wish to wipe out Judaism rely on people like you who are too weak to stand up against the hatred our people face. I hope one day you see this.

OK, this is not a comment, but more of plug, so PROBABLY will get removed!

Below are two books relating to Judaism and Zionism that are up for sell!

These should be worth buying for anyone that is interested in Zionism and it's stance in relation to Judaism!

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS!
____________________________________________________________________________________________

Messianism,Zionism & Jewish Religious Radicalism

Messianism,Zionism and Jewish Religious Radicalism,by Aviezer Ravitzky (translated into English by Michael Swirsky and Jonathan Chapman).Published by The University of Chicago Press,1996.303 pages.Used condition,some cover-wear,(slight edge wear,a couple of small 'scuff' marks).Pages are fully intact,no tears,rips or text defacing,(a couple of small marks to the underside of the pages).(ISBN 0-226-70578-1). The Orthodox Jewish tradition affirms that Jewish exile will end with the coming of the Messiah.How then,does Orthodoxy respond to the political realization of a Jewish homeland that is the State of Israel?In this cogent and searching study,Ravitzky probes Orthodoxy's divergent positions on Zionism,which range from radical condemnation to virtual beatification.Ravitzky traces the roots of Haredi (ultra-Orthodox) idealogy,which opposes the Zionist enterprise,and shows how Haredim living in Israel have come to terms with a state to them unholy,and therefore the continuation of their exile.Ravitzky also examines radical religious Zionist movements,including the Gush Emunim,to whom the State of Israel is a divine agent.He concludes with a discussion of the transformation of Habad Hassidism,inspired by recent messianic fervour,from conservatism to radical messianism.This book is indispensable to anyone concerned with the complex confrontation between Jewish religious radicalism and Israeli politcal sovereignty.

 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29366&item=4527002922&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE ATTITUDE TO ZIONISM OF BRITAIN`S CHIEF RABBIS

THE ATTITUDE TO ZIONISM OF BRITAIN`S CHIEF RABBIS AS REFLECTED IN THEIR WRITINGS, by LORD JAKOBOVITS.

LECTURE DELIVERED TO THE JEWISH HISTORICAL SOCIETY OF ENGLAND IN LONDON, 9TH MAY, 1979

 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29366&item=4526740778&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

J&P – we misunderstand one another because we come to the same argument from different angles. I know well about being called a Yid on the school bus, but strength to me is standing and fighting. Israel is a bolt-hole and I do understand why many Jews who have never been there, and are neither religious not political, are comforted by its existence. But to me relying on the narrow strip of land in the Middle East and the support of imperialist govts to counter the racism we face is weakness. Fighting for equality in the diaspora is strength.

You say I am a pawn. I believe that you are one. I think that the forces at play here are not religious but political and concern currently the hegemony of the single superpower, which is using you and your people as a proxy for its war for domination.

We will not agree on this, I am aware. But I intervened in this debate only because it pains me that someone like you feels he or she must call every Jew who disagrees ‘self-hating’. This is no argument. Every non-Jew who opposes your viewpoint is not an anti-Semite, although some certainly will be. And every Jew who disagrees with you does not hate themselves. You must be tolerant, my friend, or the strength you think you have now will turn to obsession and paranoia and then you will be weaker than you can ever imagine.

The Israeli state does not equate to Nazism. It is a nonsensical comparison. On this I agree with you. But the Israeli state’s treatment of the Palestinians is appalling. It is racist and it threatens to become fascistic and genocidal. And bringing every and any ‘Jew’ to Israel while preventing genuine Palestinians from returning will begin to look like the search for Lebensraum if those Jews inside and outside of Israel do not come to their senses – soon.

As you know about right wing extremists in this country (not saying you part of them by the way) youl know they are found in groups like the BNP and the National Front. These are right wing nutters. WE on the other hand are socialists, anarchists, environmentalists, hippies and so on. THEY don't mix with us, and WE don't mix with them. If you know anything about the left and the right in this country then you've got to have a pretty vivid imagination to think that someone who hates Jews and worships Hitler would avoid the British National Party and the National Front and instead hang out with a bunch of organic fair-trade coffee drinking, Nike-boycotting, pacifists and be part of that whole scene. If you think the left and the far left are secretly a bunch of right wing extremists then how can you not call yourself a conspiracy theorist, because that's got to be one of the wildest conspiracy theories I've ever heard.

Israel was set up as a response to the horrific repression of the Jews in the second world war and indeed through much of history. But now Israel has become a state that oppresses Palestinians. It would be WRONG to say that the opressed have become the oppressors; that would not be at all accurate BECAUSE it is not Jewish people in general, or indeed Israeli people in general who are committing these atrocities - it is the right wing Israeli government and the aggressive Israeli Defence Force. It is THESE organisations against which we take a stand, and against the views held by SOME in the Israeli population that the Palestinians must be crushed. All of this is what we against - NOT the Jewish people. I repeat we are NOT against the Jewish people.

I don't expect you to engage with any of the points I've tried to raise here because I'm sure you'll just call me a racist and a biggot instead. Yeah mate, that secret invisible hidden racism and biggotry that only YOU can see. That's right. Obviously.

If there was no IDF there would have been a genocide.

Arab states have repeatedly called to throw us into the sea, a call first made by Haj Amin Al Husseini, a friend of Hitlers and Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

Several Arab states, most notably Syria, Iran and Lebanon still call for our total destruction.

You say RK, that to rely on this scrap of land is weakness; I disagree - we have tried for many years in socities when israel did not exist, to be accepted.

We have tried to integrate - German Jews from 1890 - 1935 were the most integrated in Europe

We have tried to keep to ourselves - Shtetl life in the East

We have tried to educate, we have tried to fight, we have tried to hide

We have never been fully accepeted - even today in the UK, the Labour party produces anti semitic images aimed against Howard and Ken Livingstone shows his usual insensitivity.

But where there is real trouble for a Jewish community now, anywhere in the world, Israel is there, either as a refuge or as an intemidiary.

In Ethiopia where forced conversions were taking place, Israel airlifted out the entire Jewish community so that they may carry on being Jewish. Without Israel, the religion would have been destroyed in Ethiopia.

How can you say RK, that this is the wrong way?

In Russia, the Jewish religion is now practically dead. Jews could not go to Jewish schools, teach hebrew the language of our torah, study judaism.
Israel mounted a massive campaign over years to allow Russia to let the Jews come to Israel and keep their religion.

How, RK, is this not the right way?

You suggest that we combat racism in different ways, we have tried this and it still continues. Maybe one day we will stamp it out, but Israels existence has allowed millions of Jews to continue their beliefs without fear of oppression, conversion, imprisonment or death - Why is that wrong?

That is what Israel offers.

Perhaps hostels for battered women should not exist and we should spend our time convincing men not to drink and beat their wives and if they choose to ignore this advice; well tough. That is akin to what you suggest.

TO suggest that Israel is on the verge of committing genocide is ludicrous and baseless. There is and has never been ethnic cleansing in Israel.
There are clear rules of engagement and if breached our soldiers are put on trial.
There is a rule in the army that if a soldier is given an order to shoot unarmmed persons or 'non combatants' he must refuse and the ordering officer must be reported. The only army which has this rule.

Genocide was carried out in Sudan - Israel sent aid - evryone lese ignored it - I did not see one article on here, whilst hundreds of thousands were killed.
Why not?

I have said it before and will say so again - it is where the left and right meet - an obsession with Jews - Hitler had it, Stalin had it and the VTI certainly share that obsession.


We have been condemned for being a 'Jewish State'- there has been no condemnation of Iran for being an 'Islamic State' - why?

We are never praised for the wonderful work done by Israel - scientific, medical, agricultural, artistic and academic achievements which leave the rest of the world behind - only condemned, disproprtionately to the rest of the world.

Of course Israel should be criticised - but this obsessive bombardment and microscopic observation of all Israel does is a very different treatment to that offered to any other state; that is anti semitism, make no mistake about it.


To the person who detailed the books about Judaism and Zionism; that is not the definitive religious view on Israel.

Most rabbis and religious persons are pro Israel; my own rabbi is a true zionist as are all Lubavitch rabbis.
You do not have a clue; but if you want an argument about it - sure lets have one.

To sum up, the religious groups such as Nuturei Karta believe that Jews should never know worldly happiness; that is for when the Messiah comes. Until then we should suffer. When he does come, Israel will be our reward for suffering.

Well most Jews do not want to suffer any more; clearly that is not what you want.

I think RK makes some interesting points.

The basic assumption of Zionism is that Jews can never be free in Gentile society. Right from the start many Jews opposed this idea, most notably the only Jew in the Government during the Balfour Agreement, Edwin Montagu.  http://www.manfamily.org/Edwin%20Montagu%20and%20Zionism%201917.htm.

Zionism seeks to ignore the question of racism and anti-semitism here, on the basis that Jews can be free somewhere else in the world. This ignores that fact that many Jews don't want to have to move and leave their homes to be free. But it also ignores the peoples including Jews who already lived in the land that was chosen.

I think the whole idea of self-hating Jew is abhorrent and in its self can be seen as anti-semitic.

I also agree with RK that Israel is not a Nazi country (even if a strand of Zionism is linked to Mussolini's brand of nationalism and corporatism). The policy of Isreal has not been based on genocide (though as RK says it may threaten it in the future - let us hope not).

As I have said before the issue is over the right to protest and the right to fly a Palestinian flag or use non-racist placards. I think Jewish & Proud and Adam Conlon should stop trying to stop us with their fog-horns, surrounding the table and inimidating those who sign petitions and to put their own case for Israel in a peaceful and democratic way.

Arthur James Balfour, for those that don't know was the , in crude and simple way, was the main figure in the drafting of the Balfour Declaration. If some can explain that be, please do so!

Below is the letter that Balfour wrote to Lord Rorthschild
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,
Arthur James Balfour
_______________________________________________________________________________________________

My question to J&P and Adam, as individuals, is simple!!!

Do you are with Balfours views regarding Israel and Jews????

I would certainly criticize Iran for being an Islamic state, Britain for being a Christian one and the aspirational Khalistan that many Sikhs are striving for...etc I would applaud France and the Soviet Union for being secular, but complain about the way in which religious beliefs have been surpressed under those secular regimes. But so what? How does that make building a wall around the occupied territories, enforcing a one-sided 'right of return', bulldozing homes or shooting civilians and making out they were all armed members of Hamas better? This IS a discussion about the wrongs or rights of Israel and its treatment of the Palestinians. How good or bad the govt or militias in the Sudan have behaved doesn't help anyone to focus on the issue.

J&P, I think you are wrong in what you say, and have a one-sided view, not only of the 'Israel-Palestine' conflict but also of fighting racism and prejudice in the world, but I do I think I understand how you came to feel the way you do. You use women's refuges as an analogy to Israel. I said Israel was a 'bolt-hole' and that I understood why many Jews were comforted by its existenece. I stand by that statement and actually agree with your comparison, because women's refuges are not a solution to male violence against women - they are a refuge, where battered women can run for cover, recharge themselves and go back into living in the world. The women who run them are committed to education and campaigning and legilation, notjust providing temporary safe havens. And I am sure that their ultimate hope is that one day those refuges won't be necessary.

But this lenghty debate is also, as John Says, a discussion about the right to put views across peacefully. I know it is hard, when everyone feels so strongly, and I don't for a minute want anyone to feel less strongly about these things that concern us all. But why can't you do as he suggests? Why do you have to resort to red herrings and invective.


PS Can we drop the Neteurei Karta stuff. It is not helping anyone get clearer about anything.

Happy to drop Nuturei Karta - but perhaps people with no clue about Judaism should stop quoting them and the Haredim to me.

Not sure what your friend was asking about Balfour - I agree with the views of Herzl and Ben Gurion - the Balfour declaration was great in intent but it was not the Jews who were attacking between 1890 - 1948 rather the Jews went to uninhabitable land and turned it into fields which could grow.

Then the Jews were attacked for the land by Arab tribesmen. The jews made every effort to live in peace and those Arab villages who accepted the 'oloive branch' continue to live in peace and thrive today, Abu Ghosh (just near Neve Elan) is a perfect example.

RK - have you been to Israel - I have driven the length of the fence and it is a fence not a wall. 3% is a wall - this was built where snipers were attacking civilians and shot and killed Shalhevet Pass, a ten month old baby.

The rest is a fence, in time it will be moved, as the fence in lebanon was in accordance with res 245.

It is built where it is because (albeit that the communities will eventually be moved) civillians still live in the territories and are the most attacked.

Since building the fence, the number of suicide bombings has plumetted. Is that wrong?

Perhaps if the terrorist attacks received the condemnation they should, they would not be encouraged and the fence would not be needed.

But every time someone like John makes excuses for the attacks and glorifies them, they are encouraged.

The fence does inconvenience Palestinians. They may be late for work, but without it many Israelis would never get to work as they would be dead

The original text of Balfour’s declaration was:

1. His Majesty's Government accepts the principle that Palestine should be reconstituted as the National Home of the Jewish people.
2. His Majesty's Government will use its best endeavours to secure the achievement of this object and will discuss the necessary methods with the Zionist Organization.
It was the anti-Zionist Jews, especially Montagu, who forced him to change it to “in Palestine” and to add the reference to the existing inhabitants as well as defending the rights of Jews outside Palestine.

Balfour’s real views were revealed in a Memorandum he sent privately to Lord Curzon:

“For in Palestine we do not propose even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country…The Four Great Powers are committed to Zionism. And Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long traditions, in present needs, in future hopes, of far profounder import that the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land.”

“In short, so far as Palestine is concerned, the Powers have made no statement of fact which is not admittedly wrong, and no declaration of policy which, at least in the letter, they have not always intended to violate” (Palestine Papers 1917-1922, London 1972, P.31)


Balfour was an odd choice for the Zionist as he was an open anti-Semite who they had been fighting against only a decade earlier. He tried to get through the 1904 Aliens’ Bill which was design to stop Jews fleeing from Eastern Europe from coming to Britain. The Bill was defeated by Nathan Laski of the Manchester Old Hebrew Congregation who convince a certain Winston Churchill (who had just left the Tories and hope to get the North-West Manchester seat) to kill the bill – which he did very successfully. However, Balfour continued his campaign against further Jewish immigration and sponsored the 1905 Act which managed to get through.

The 7th Zionist Congress in 1905 charged Balfour with “open anti-Semitism against the whole Jewish people”. The charge was also made in Jewish Chronicle who attacked his speech on the bill and by the Anglo-Jewish Association.

Even later, after convincing Balfour of the Zionist cause Chaim Weizmann admitted, in a private letter, that Balfour “told me how he had once had a long talk with Cosima Wagner at Bayreuth and that he shared many of her anti-Semitic postulates.” (Meyer Weisgal (ed.), The Letters and Papers of Chaim Weizmann, Letters, (12 December 1914), vol.VII p.81).

So Balfour did not like Jews, so what?

He joins a sickeningly long list

But he assisted (for whatever reason) to declare a state which we had been deprived of for 2000 years.

The benefits Israel has since offered to the World are immesurable, whilst under consistent attack she has tried to make peace and has succeeded with Egypt and Jordan.

Israel has provided a home to a homeless people who have risen from the ashes of the holocaust and have been able to grow again into a proud people and to realise a dream; to have a place where we can be Jewish without living in fear.

Unfortunately John, you would deny us this and send us back to Poland, Ethiopia, Russia, Yemen, Roumania, to the countries where Jews were imprisoned or killed for wanting to learn, to pray or just to be.

The only reason Balour support the setting up of a Jewish/Zionist State, was so that every Jew in England would live in Israel. An Enlgand ethnically cleased of Jews!

Just like what Turkey was doing with the Kurds only recently.

Just like what Nazi Germany attempted to do the Jews, with Holocaust.

Like the genocide in Sudan! (as mention by J&P earlier, but i was aware like most only after the events have happened)

J&P

Got one question for you.

Do you believe that Israel should be the only place where Jews can feel safe from the horrors of Anti-semitism, or should show Israel be a place where Jews can choose to live, knowing if they didn't they wouldn't suffer with Anti-Semitism???

Basically, what i'm asking is, do want a world where people are discriminate against, or a world where is nobody discriminated against and everyone is equal! I know i want a world where EVERYONE is EQUAL, and the is NO DISCRIMINATION

I think anon is right to imply that J&P is saying that Jews can only feel safe in Israel. Which given s/he also says they can't feel safe there either is a pretty bleak view.

Zionism IS built on encouraging such fears, but as J&P him/herself has pointed out, 'keeping to ourselves' in the stetl of Poland didn't 'work' as a strategy for combating prejudice. If Israel can only survive with a million dollars a day (or whatever the figure is) in US aid, then it is not really 'working' either, is it?

The bottom line for me is that with or without Israel, integration is the only choice. Integration is not necessarily assimilation or subjugation, and it isn't necessarily vertical (ie integration with the oppressors, instead it can be integration with the others who face oppression). I said in my first contribution how much I admired the Jews who fought in the Spanish civil war or joined the anti-racist movements in South Africa and the US. And I stand by that absolutely. Yes our history is full of oppression, but so is that of black people and all those who have ever suffered colonialism/imperialism/racism/oppression. But you know what, if you add us all up, we are the majority.

This is what I mean when I say that what you perceive as strength is weakness. Isolated, introspective, we/you will always be weak. United with others, we could fight for social justice for all. I am not an idealist. I believe I am a realist.

I feel that you have got confused with one of my comments. At no point did I try to imply that Jews cannot feel safe in Israel! What I’m trying to get across is that Jews should NOT HAVE to feel safe just in Israel BUT WHEREEVER they choose to live. It's not a matter of Jews being tolerated, but accepted. Should people who are gay tolerated, NO, they should be accepted! Should disabled people be tolerated? NO! They should be accepted! This, which I hope J&P can see is, they ways things SHOULD BE, even though they currently aren't.

But this is avoiding the point of this discussion.

Lets put it this way. If any new states are set up, ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, it will result in the displacement of people. One on of the core problems is the Palestine Refugees who were displaced as a result of the creation of the State of Israel. Realistically, the refugees NEED to have the right of return to what was their land, that now being Israel. This is, to me, one of the main problems that HAS to be resolved. The whole concept of people who never live in Israel have a right of right, but those that did live on the land that is now Israel have none, to me is kinda not right!

The Israeli Settlements, which have been built within Palestine, need to be removed. This I admit will result in the displacement of thousands and thousands of people. BUT it's like Egypt building Settlements within Israel, which are under Egyptian control! I wouldn't expect Israel to tolerate it, and therefore don't expect Palestine to tolerate ANY settlement built within Palestine that is under foreign control. I'm not saying Jews or anyone has no right to live there! They should have that right, but they should live under Palestinian control, not foreign control. They should have their human rights respected and not oppressed! Yes, there are lots of countries that fail to do this, I’m not going to name any, as I feel J&P has named enough! If you’re new to this current.………DISCUSSION, then have a look up and look at various other M&S reports that are on the Manchester IMC service. I will get to these later!

Israel HAS to end its military occupation of Palestine. The way it affects the daily lives of the Palestinians is total dehumanising. To having to wait for hours on end to get through check points, not knowing that you will even get to work, must be frustrating and humiliating! Houses can be occupied, not just for a few hours, but days and weeks on end. And when they get to return to their house, there is NO guarantee it will be the way it was left. IN FACT is more likely to have everything in it destroyed! That from the MOST MORAL ARMY IN THE WORLD!

DOWN WITH THE WALL! Call it a wall, or a fence, is irrelevant! It's what it does! I still believe if it was there to protect the lives it would be built on the '67 borders, NOT WITHIN THE WEST BACK! Hey, what have Israel got planned for Gaza! A MOAT!

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1241572,00.html

and

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0%2C2763%2C1391866%2C00.html

This, like the wall, will have great effect on the lives of Palestinians! J&P, I the fact respect that you can admit that it does have an effect on the lives of Palestinians, but how can you defend some that is-called "Security Wall", when clearly it is not! Again if it was, it would be built on the borders between Israel and The West Bank!

So personally UNTIL Israel no long has the Settlements in place, or they under Israeli control, carries on with the military occupation, building of is "Security" wall, and fails to grand the right to return to Palestinian Refugees, and then there will be the contuited resistance by the Palestinians!

They are a lot of similarities between the situation in Iraq and Palestine! Both are occupied and both are resisting the occupation. It is commonly accepted that the people whose land is occupied, then they have the right to resist the occupying forces! In Iraq it is the invader force on the British and American Forces and with Palestine, it is the IDF or IOF.

As in the past, J&P has mentioned that there are other countries that have bad human rights records. BUT most of these countries get American aid, either financially or with arms, or BOTH! These countries serve American imperialist interests! If the don’t American will criticize them and threaten them with violence if they don’t change their ways! By this America means, “support OUR NAIONAL INTERESTES, not your own!” The same goes with Britain. Britain supports Israel be Israel lets Britain use of the Suzy Canal. By using the Suzy Canal, it helps Britain trade with various countries. This helps with British Imperialism. If Israel prevent Britain from using the Suzy Canal, do you think that Britain would support Israel???

But as a human race we are still young and learning. We make mistakes, and learn from them, except with some, it takes us longer. Until we are all dead and gone, we will never truly know who was right with the conflict between Israel and Palestine. We will believe we were right!

The Truth is Hidden!!!

Do you remember Rachael Corrie, Tom Hurndell and James Miller!

Rachael Corrie, ISM MEMBER, she was ran over by a bulldozer, the IDF tried to cover it up.

Tom Hurndell, ISM MEMBER, he was shot in the head by an IDF Sniper, when trying to protect innocent children. The IDF tried to cover it up by saying he was shot in 2 DIFFERENT PLACES. Neither being the place where he was! They even tried to kill his PARENTS when they visited Gaza!

James Miller, CHANNEL FOUR CAMERAMAN , he was shot in the neck by the IDF!

Why does Israel kill Internations? Makes you think, doesn't!!!

J&P.

I wonder why you don’t set up your own stall, provide people with some thing to read, and let people make their own minds up, instead of hassling members of the public! Do what Betar does. Hand out information!

I had said that we have tried assimilation. Integration has also been tried and failed.

Israel should not be a haven, it should be a choice; there should be no anti semitism in the world - unfortunately there is and try as we may to teach people accross the world that we are not a pariah race, there are still many places where it is unsafe to be Jewish.

We would love to be accepted - many of my non Jewish friends have crossed a bridge which you seem unable to do and just treat us like anyone else

You declare that you are against such attitudes - but rather than setting up a stall in Manchester to stand against anti semitism and and any forms of racism (where you would receive massive support from my community as well as others); you do the opposite and have been responsible for drumming up anti jewish sentiment (bearing in mind the 'man on the street' with no idea as to what the situation in about sees your images - eg a religious jew striking someone with a torah scroll - and presumes it is 'jews causing trouble')



On a seperate note thought you may wish to read the J Post article below (not so much to do with the subject but very interesting; baring in mind Israel abolished the death penalty after Eichman)

Abbas okays 'collaborator' executions
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH


In the first decision of its kind since he succeeded Yasser Arafat, Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas has ratified death sentences against three Palestinians found guilty of "collaboration" with Israel.

It is not clear when the three men, whose identities were not revealed, will be executed by firing squad.

However, senior PA officials told The Jerusalem Post that the three were Gaza Strip residents who had been convicted of "high treason" for tipping off Israeli security forces about the whereabouts of wanted gunmen.

Sakher Bsaisso, a senior Fatah official who also serves as PA governor of the northern Gaza Strip, confirmed on Wednesday that Abbas had authorized death sentences against three alleged "collaborators."

Bsaisso said the three had been convicted of assisting Israel in the assassination of a number of Palestinian activists in the Gaza Strip over the past four years, but refused to elaborate.

He said Abbas also approved death sentences passed against scores of Palestinians found guilty of criminally motivated murders.
Bsaisso said Abbas's decision to carry out the death sentences came after PA mufti Sheikh Ikrimah Sabri authorized the executions as required by law.

At least 51 Palestinians are on death row, including several suspected "collaborators." Under pressure to crack down on an upsurge in crime and anarchy in PA-controlled areas, Abbas earlier this month instructed the mufti to quickly review the cases of the convicts so that the executions may be carried out as soon as possible.

Most of the death sentences were issued by the controversial "state security" courts in the Gaza Strip, which were dismantled two years ago after drawing sharp criticism from Palestinian human rights organizations and reformists.

Since then, the defendants have been put on trial before a special "court of criminal assize," which has also been issuing death sentences.

Bsaisso disclosed that Abbas had ordered the security forces to rearrest several convicted criminals who were released from prison for unknown reasons.

According to the Jerusalem-based Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, 59 Palestinians have been sentenced to death by various PA courts since 1995. The first executions took place in August 1998, when two convicted murderers were brought before a firing squad in Gaza City.

Since the beginning of the intifada in September 2000, another nine Palestinians have been sentenced to death for "collaborating" with Israel, including a human rights activist from Rafah. Many others have received sentences ranging from three to 20 years in prison.

According to Amnesty International, some of the defendants were sentenced to death by firing squad after an unfair trial.

"The trials, before the State Security Court in Gaza, took place in a single sitting in the evening, during which they did have some access to lawyers. Amnesty International has previously condemned trials by the State Security Court as being grossly unfair. Trials are often summary, taking place before military judges, and there is no right of appeal," the group said in a statement.

"People convicted of 'collaboration' with Israel face extremely harsh treatment. Two were executed in January 2001. Amnesty International delegates were told that the Palestinian Authority had promised the European Union not to carry out any further executions. However, according to reports, at least 28 alleged collaborators have been killed by armed Palestinians in 2002."

Dear Anon.

I meant that J&p's view is Jews can only be safe in Israel (as you rightly point out) but that s/he also thinks they are so unsafe there they need to build a great big wall/fence. I didn't say it was your view. It certainly isn't mine.

I grew up in a very anti-semitic atmosphere in a part of England where it is still considered normal to abuse Jews. I wept buckets when I learnt of the holocaust and met relatives who had escaped it as children. I learnt that other parts of my family had fled pogrums in eastern Europe before that. I went to Israel on a kibbutz as a student. I saw the 'narrow strip of land' and the pride of those who live there. I also saw the difference between the standard of living in the settlements/towns and the Palestinian villages, and I met crazed young men fresh from the war, who told me Arabs were animals.

These experiences have made me into an internationalist and a communist. I believe there is no other way forward for humanity.

J&P attacks me for condemning Jews to a leave Palestine and to a life of wandering in search of paternalistic sanctuary. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have fought against anti-Semitism here (and it could be interesting to know what the counter-protesters have done). I think it is up to the people of Palestine - be the Jew, Muslim, Christian, Arab, Hebrew, Bedouin, etc - to decide the make-up of any future state or states BUT I would hope it would be one where the great diversity of that land is preserved and enhanced. Where Jewish people would be equals with others not reliant on their good will.

J&P said: "Unfortunately John, you would deny us this and send us back to Poland, Ethiopia, Russia, Yemen, Roumania, to the countries where Jews were imprisoned or killed for wanting to learn, to pray or just to be."

You paint a picture of international Jewish oppression which is not true - are Jewish people imprisoned and killed in the USA, Britain, France, Australia, Canada, Spain, etc.? Is it not possible for Jewish people to challenge this racism alongside other oppressed groups? How far is the Zionist State of Israel an obstacle to fighting anti-Semitism around the world? You mention Poland - once a great refuge for Jewish people fleeing the re-Christianization of Muslim Spain but in the last century became a site of such horrific Jewish slaughter. I went to Krakow recently and things are changing there. There are no imprisonment and no killing. I visited the active Synagogues and the Jewish museums, restaurants and districts. The community is re-growing in an act of defiance against what happened. The prove that Jewish people will not be driven from the places they have lived for centuries. They prove that the anti-Semites cannot be allowed to triumph - they make concrete the slogan "Never Again!". That is a far stronger message of hope and freedom than building illegal settlements on the land that Palestinians have lived for centuries.


As to Balfour being as useful anti-Semite to Zionism by seeking to send Jewish refugees to Palestine in order to stop them coming to Britain, then there is a long history of Zionists exploiting anti-Semitism for their own ends. From Sharon's recent call for French Jews to leave that dangerous country and come to Israel as well as the disgusting collaboration with the Nazis to force Jews to Palestine. There was also the series of undercover bombs planted at the Baghdad Synagogue in 1950-51 by the Zionists (as was later admitted in court). The aim of "ingathering Oriental Jews" led to the uprooting of over a million Jews who had lived side-by-side with their fellow Arabs and many resented Israel for forcing them to flee their homes where they had lived for generations. Israel has placed the problem of European anti-Semitism on the shoulders not only of Palestinians but also on Jewish Arabs and other non-European Jews.

John you say "Is it not possible for Jewish people to challenge this racism alongside other oppressed groups?" - we do and have several groups who are actively involved in this


"How far is the Zionist State of Israel an obstacle to fighting anti-Semitism around the world? You mention Poland - once a great refuge for Jewish people fleeing the re-Christianization of Muslim Spain but in the last century became a site of such horrific Jewish slaughter. I went to Krakow recently and things are changing there. There are no imprisonment and no killing. I visited the active Synagogues and the Jewish museums, restaurants and districts. The community is re-growing in an act of defiance against what happened."

- Well that differs from the reports of many members of my community who were given the Nazi salute by poles when driving away from Aushwitz; it also differs from the accounts of Polish friends in Israel who left so they could walk to University without being abused.

- Next you will tell me Russia is no longer anti semitic with politicians like Zhironovsky to contend with.

- The community in Krakow is tiny and receives little support

- So what are you suggesting; that you do think Jews in Israel should leave their homes and go back to the villages of their parents in Poland?

You ask what we do to combat anti-semitism - a hell of a lot; we run muslim, jewish and christian partnerships aimed at bridging gaps, we work with schools, we target facsist groups like the BNP and always aim to live as good citizens in whichever state we are in. And when anti semites stand outside M&S to boycott Israeli goods (ie kosher food)and to disproportinately condemn our people in Israel who behave far better than most other nations on earth we challenge them too.



"The prove that Jewish people will not be driven from the places they have lived for centuries. They prove that the anti-Semites cannot be allowed to triumph - they make concrete the slogan "Never Again!". " - what like we were not driven from Iran, Iraq, Syria - John were you on the streets when the Shah was deposed in Iran, protesting that hundreds of Jews were forced to flee their homes? Were you shouting to ban Iranian goods?

"That is a far stronger message of hope and freedom than building illegal settlements on the land that Palestinians have lived for centuries." - well if you want to go back hundreds of years - we have been there for thousands.


"there is a long history of Zionists exploiting anti-Semitism for their own ends." - wayhey conspiracy theory time - let me guess - Rothschild caused the holocaust

"From Sharon's recent call for French Jews to leave that dangerous country and come to Israel" - or the alternative - remain in a country where skullcaps cannot be worn in schools

"as well as the disgusting collaboration with the Nazis to force Jews to Palestine." - unbelievable John, any 'evidence' put forward to support this claim has been condemned as utterly false, yes - I can really see Eichmann and Ben Gurion having a cup of tea together and deciding to do that. - The reality is that Haj Amin Al Husseini and Hitler consulted on setting up death camps in the Negev whilst Ben Gurion prepared to make the last stand of the Jewish people against the Carmel mountains - Ask why we use foghorns to shut you up; it is because you would tell the public blatantly anti semitic lies like that


"There was also the series of undercover bombs planted at the Baghdad Synagogue in 1950-51 by the Zionists (as was later admitted in court)." - following torture John

"The aim of "ingathering Oriental Jews" led to the uprooting of over a million Jews who had lived side-by-side with their fellow Arabs and many resented Israel for forcing them to flee their homes where they had lived for generations." - Well the Ethiopian, Moroccan, Iranian, Iraqi and Syrian Jews I know would dispute that and argue the absolute opposite - dont believe me - why not go to Israel and speak to some people and see why they came.

"Israel has placed the problem of European anti-Semitism on the shoulders not only of Palestinians but also on Jewish Arabs and other non-European Jews. " - No anti semitism is an international issue which has been ignored or encouraged to suit various leaders over the centuries in teh mid east and europe with many attempts to wipe us out.

We have tried every method to stop anti semitism but it has not worked; primarily because the left and teh right are so obssessed with us.
Whether or not we fight it, ignore it or run or be proud of it is up to us - not you.

John - there are many causes more deserving of your attention; Massive human rights abuses in Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Angola, Rwanda, Somalia, Zimbabwe, Russia, Chechnya, Lebanon, Chad, North Korea - so why not use your time constructively?

zionismizracismzionismisracismzionismisracismzionismisracismzionismisracismzioziozioziozioziozizozioooooooooisrrrrracism
hey fake"zimmerman" (real nazional-socialist)
you can repeat your little mantra 13238573465245375986 times but it never be true.

See The Workers Liberty
 http://www.workersliberty.org/node/view/1748
'Stalinist roots of Anti-zionism'