audio from saturday 2004/12/11 - Robert from the Defemd The Marks and Spencers Picket Campaign talks about Saturdays demo for the right to protest.
mp3 02.44
mp3 02.44
The demo was called in response to the police ban on the groups regular picket outside M+S canpaigning for a boycott of M+S and Israeli goods.
Last week ten people were arrested outside M=S for supposedly breaching the ban. Although they haven't been charged, all but Robert have been given bail conditions banning them from the city centre until mid-January.
Apparently people bailed awayt from the city centre did a picket outside another Marks and Spencers in Greater Manchester.
Last week ten people were arrested outside M=S for supposedly breaching the ban. Although they haven't been charged, all but Robert have been given bail conditions banning them from the city centre until mid-January.
Apparently people bailed awayt from the city centre did a picket outside another Marks and Spencers in Greater Manchester.
Comments
Hide the following 59 comments
Waiting
14.12.2004 11:12
Simply not good enough.
No to the Fash
Student Union demo
14.12.2004 13:53
One young man said 'Jews are the root of all of this trouble with their land grabbing'
Not racist?
Not anti-semitic?
Why not go and join Nick Griffin where you belong
So you are racist
Same old drivel
14.12.2004 18:42
It is conceivable that right wing British nationalists could pick either Zionists or Palestinian nationalists for some form of warped support, but it doesn't really concern the actual subject at issue.
Those of us who support the Palestinian struggle condemn the expansionist, colonialist, imperialist (fascist, if you like..) violence of the state of Israel and the support given to it by the US and British govts and companies like M&S. We are for the liberation of oppressed people, against all forms of racism (including against Jewish people) and against immigration controls, public order and anti-terrorist laws in this country being used to oppress supporters of that struggle here. We do not allow any expression of racism on our demonstrations.
I'm not going to bother explaining the politics of those who oppose us but it sure as hell is not restricted to a fear that some twisted Nazi might hypothetically choose to 'support' the Palestinian cause for their own racist reasons.
And hypothetical it is. No 'known fascists' have ever been seen on the London picket, and the sole one ever on the Manchester one was identified after the fact as a 'mole' masquerading as an SWP member! This whole 'debate' is a complete red herring and recycled again, and again (and again) on the basis that a lie repeated often enough becomes the truth - a tactic that fascists know all about!
London VTI member
...
15.12.2004 00:52
Maybe I'm just unlucky, the thread drops of the list before I have seen it, or whatever. I'm not trying to be provocative. I simply keep missing the proof, if it exists.
I stand by the previous poster, though, that if they decide to support the picket incognito, it changes nothing about the morality of the picket. Fascists often support supposedly progressive causes for their own ends. The BNP has a very good take on environmental issues, and supports certain green policies. Does that make make the environmental movement a fascist movement?
At the end of the day, there is one people under occupation by the worlds third most powerful army. I have been and seen the humiliation of the Palestinians first hand. There is nothing you can say that can hide the truth from me, I have seen with my own eyes the abuse given by the soldiers, the humiliating checkpoints, the destruction wrought by an incursion into Nablus, the Ghetto wall surrounding Qalqilia...I have seen an army of insecure teenagers treating old men like dirt. I have seen farmers cry as their trees are torn up by bulldozers. I have seen the posters of young children killed by the trigger happy Israeli soldiers.
I was not unlucky enough to see a bus blown up by a suicide bomber, but I am not blind to the Israeli suffering. But it seems you are blind to Palestinian suffering, or you would not endorse such a terrible collective punishment and apartheid system.
Hermes
Thanks Hermes
15.12.2004 11:12
As I said, I am not going to tell the story on behalf of those who oppose us. However, for the record, the photos someone once posted on indymedia were of a group of neo-Nazis in Germany carrying a Palestinian flag. This was evidence that some ultra-right wing groups 'support' Palestinian nationalism in furtherance of their anti-semitism, or for whatever reason. This was never in dispute. As I pointed out then, some European fascist groups have always supported Irish nationalism, much to the dismay of the BNP etc.
These photos from an unspecified German demonstration had no link to any British demonstration and still less of one to the pickets in London and Manchester outside M&s.
Other than that, no 'proof' has ever been produced. So once again, I would say to our detractors who constantly regurgitate this piece of crap - put up or SHUT THE FUCK UP!
London VTI member
good
15.12.2004 11:17
nobber
Anti-Zionist is Anti-Semitic and we oppose the BNP
15.12.2004 11:35
As to people on the stall railling against Jews as the problem then it certainly was anything I heard. I know tensions were high and there was much confusion but I'd be very surprised as we had placards of Jews who do oppose Israel. The problem is not Jewish people but the racist expansionist ideology of Zionism and the policies of the Israeli State.
I would however like to make clear that I don't think the man who knocked over the stall and threaten to physically attack us was anything but a rogue student.
Fight the Ban
the link
15.12.2004 11:36
LVTI person
BNP/VTI
15.12.2004 12:29
The left and the right have this in common - an obsession with Jews.
Hermes - terrible apartheid system isnt it.
It affords full rights to all citizens, irrespective of race, colour or religious beliefs.
There are 12 Arab members of the Knesset.
Israeli taxpayer money supports Palestinian schools and hospitals
the Jordanians and Egyptians expelled the Palestinians
Jordan killed 20,000 Palestinians - what did you do then?
Egypt refused to take back Gaza when they made peace with Israel
We do not target children. Suicide bombers and Hamas snipers do - Shalhevet Pass was 10 months old when she was shot dead by a Hamas sniper in her pram.
Israel sends in ground troops to find terrorists, risking her soldiers lives, rather than blanket bombing like any other country would - this is done to minimise any risk of civilian casualties when looking for terrorists who hide behind children.
You want to look for blame - try the corrupt Arab leadership, try the Imams who indoctrinate bombers, try the teachers who teach children that Jews drink the blood of babies at Passover (yes i have seen the textbooks), try looking beyond what is spoon fed to you by the VTI communist lunatics and grow up.
You are both Jew obsessed
...
15.12.2004 14:17
Show me the pictures of the BNP at Manchester and London. If we have those pictures, maybe someone can go kick their head in, and then we'll both be happy, no? Or are you simply repeating lies and disinformation. I have not seen them, so I am politely requesting them.
I have plenty of time to discuss the issue of Israel and Palestine with people who have some respect for the truth. But I have no time for liars. So if you make an accusation, SPECIFICALLY 'There are photographs of BNP members on the Marks and Spencers Picket', then provide them, or you will be exposed as a liar.
Hermes
...
15.12.2004 14:37
I'm really sorry I mistook you for Betar person, so sorry for the harsh language.
It's because I am not in England at the moment and it didn't immediately click that LVTI is the marks and spencer picket. Instead I thought you were a Betar person posting the same old tired link about the Germans. Aaaagh, 'not the germans again'.
So accept my apology, but my challenge still stands to the original claimant. I want to see the pictures please.
Hermes
Racism inside Israel
15.12.2004 15:04
Even the Bedouin who can join the army and so recieve benits are discriminated against as many of their villages inside where they lived before 1948 are "unrecognised" which means that they can be demolished at any time. New law are trespass are being used against them, crops are being destroyed with chemical sprays and the Green Patrols are using laws to dispossess them in order to ethnically cleans the 130,000 Bedouin in Nagev (where they were once the only community and now have only 2% of the land) so that the settlers from the Gaza can occupy this land instead.
As for representation in the Knesset, the examples of restrictions and charges against Arab parliamentarians are too great to mention.
All of this is on top of the day-to-day racism suffered by Arab Israelis whether it is against employing them, in education, in getting a morgage, in the use of the land, in medical systems, roads and electricity, clean water and social services.
This completely ignores the millions of Palestinians who were denied citizenship because they have been removed from thier land and do not have the right to return.
John
Enough
15.12.2004 15:38
To he/she who says I am ‘Jew-obsessed’ – get a grip. I said ‘including Jewish people’ for obvious reasons. If we just say we are generally anti-racist, the posters of Betar etc always respond with ‘aha yes, you oppose all racism except that against Jews’...
Anyway, congratulations to whoever put the first response. You have achieved your aim of sidetracking us all into another pointless discussion about invisible fascists. Let us now change the subject. Thank you John for giving the lie to the ‘Israel bastion of democracy, equal rights for all’ myth.
London VTI member
...
15.12.2004 16:57
Aaaaagh, trolls....
Hermes
Not true John
15.12.2004 17:39
Stop making things up.
In the Israeli army (and I really know, having been there):
Jews have to join unless very religious.
Christians and Muslims have the option to join or not.
Leading units include Druze, Bedouin, Christian Arabs and Muslims as well as Jews. They serve in all walks of Army life and enjoy the exact same benefits.
There are no restrictions on Arabs entering the Knesset so that was a lie too. As long as they are elected (same as everyone else - and at least we have elections, unlike our neighbours), then they can sit in the Knesset and in government.
Does that sound like apartheid to you?
You really are just like Nazis, the way you actually lie to win a point and then believe your lies.
At the Union Jews were verbally abused - just like the Nazis did.
Actually you are Nazis.
If you cant make a point without lying - do not make it
Resist VTI fascism!
15.12.2004 18:17
mohammed
Secret Betar Plan
15.12.2004 19:14
Well, I'm sorry, years of typing responses to you guys, and my days as a teenager with a healthy sexual imagination, have given me incredibly strong wrists, and I shall endeavour, once more, to point out why you are incorrect...
Regarding discrimination against arabs, here is an article from 'Jews for Justice for the Palestinians', at the following link. Note the reference to the Knesset, for one.
Extract from
The Arab Citizens of Israel
Text drafted 13th May 2004 by Richard Kuper
Examples of Direct Discrimination
* There is no Constitutional Equality
Israel hasn't got a written constitution, and, although it has passed a set of 'Basic Laws', these do not include the right to equality. In practice the emphasis on the Jewish nature of the state compromises the equal rights protection for the Palestinian Arab minority.
* Political Participation is unequal
The 1992 'Basic Law: The Knesset' stops participation in the elections if a platform implies the "denial of the existence of the state of Israel as the state of the Jewish people". So a party platform calling for full and complete equality between Jews and Arabs in a state for all its citizens can be – and has been - disqualified. In no other democratic state in the world could a party calling for equality for all be disenfranchised.
* Citizenship Rights are unequal
The Law of Return grants every Jew the right to immigrate to Israel. And any Jew who does so (and their spouses, children and grandchildren) is automatically given citizenship. Palestinian Arabs can only get citizenship by birth, residence or naturalisation (after meeting many stringent conditions).
* Jewish Organisations have a special constitutional status
The Jewish National Fund, Jewish Agency, and World Zionist Organisation are Jewish organisations whose aim is explicitly to benefit Jews only. Yet they have responsibility for certain governmental functions, particularly land development and housing. They get tax benefits and are involved in a lot of governmental decision-making.
Palestinian Arab citizens are entirely excluded as either participants or beneficiaries.
Examples of Indirect Discrimination
* Budgets & Resource Allocation is unequal
What budgets and social support a community receives depends to a large extent on the system of zoning. This is the division of the country into different areas (e.g. national development areas) with different statuses and benefits for different towns. It is a practice that is used to exclude the vast majority of Palestinian Arab citizens from large amounts of funding.
For example, in the 1998 classification, only 4 out of 429 localities with Development Area A status - and financial privileges - were Arab.
Even wealthy Arab citizens can't avoid the problem easily by moving to a better area for they are effectively prevented from living in the vast majority of the country (see about land, below)
Palestinian Arab areas receive substantially less funding for local government (usually only half as much), welfare, school facilities or other education programmes.
Often this discrepancy has been justified by the government running projects in cooperation with the Jewish Agency, which requires Jewish-only beneficiaries.
* Military Service confers wide social and economic privileges
Doing military service is a condition for obtaining many benefits in Israel. Technically compulsory for all citizens, the vast majority (90%) of Palestinian Arabs are not required to serve, whereas the majority of Jews do.
* So Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel don't receive a wide range of benefits, including larger mortgages, partial exemptions from course fees, and preferences for public employment and housing.
* Jewish Yeshiva students, who don't do military service, are still given the benefits, Palestinian Arab citizens aren't.
Until 1997 even the level of state child benefits was based on military service, rather than on need…
In 2003 the Israel Land Administration was offering 90% subsidy to discharged soldiers to lease land in the Galilee or the Negev, something that in the words of ACRI 'represents in real terms the severe discrimination of the Arab sector that does not serve in the army or the national service program.'
*The law is implemented unevenly
(a) The state is supposed to enforce or provide some things but just does not do so for its Arab citizens e.g. the truant officers and counsellors provided for under the Compulsory Education Law (despite the fact that Arab students form 75% of those who drop out of school).
(b) Some laws that apply in principle to all are selectively implemented to the detriment of Palestinian Arabs, such as granting building permits (or demolishing houses built without permission).
(c) Arab citizens are often barely represented in decision-making authorities, which facilitates this discrimination in implementation.
The extent of discrimination
Some figures from the late nineties
* Local government expenditure for Arab citizens was only 58% per head of what it was for Jewish citizens in 1997.
* 5.7% of Jews were living in overcrowded conditions compared with 31.6% of Arabs in 1997
* 16% of Jewish families were below the poverty line in 1996 compared with 28.3% of Arab families
* 95% of Jewish schools had psychological services in 1996, compared with only 33% of Arab schools (and Arab classes were about 15% larger than Jewish classes)
Discrimination against Arab citizens in the civil service is particularly blatant. As reported in 2000, they constitute 18.6% of the total population but only the following percentages of employees in various ministries taken at random:
Ministry
Percentages
Environment
2.5
Health
6.3
Labour
4.8
Agriculture & rural development
4.2
Construction and housing
1.0
Communication & media
0
State-owned companies play an important role in Israel's economy and on would expect them to be a symbol of good practice and non-discrimination. Yet in 1998 the National Electric Company had only six Arabs among its 13,000 employees. Not surprisingly, then, the private sector exhibits gross discrimination as well: in 1998 over half the private industrial companies in Israel did not have a single Arab employee.
Hermes
You have got it wrong Mohammed
15.12.2004 19:16
I have the utmost respect for your religion and beliefs as do most Israelis and Jews.
We are not anti-gay - not sure where you get that from - and certainly not fascist.
If you want to know who is Islamaphobist, ask John and the Revolutionary Communist VTI members what their view on religion is.
Israeli
another
15.12.2004 19:21
'Each year the US government publishes Country Reports on Human Rights Practices. The latest report, published in February 2004 states: 'The [Israeli] Government did little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens, who constituted approximately 20 percent of the population but did not share fully the rights and benefits provided to, and obligations imposed on, the country's Jewish citizens.' '
AND
The Arab Bedouin – a peculiarly harsh case of discrimination
The Arab Bedouin are the indigenous inhabitants of the Negev. They make up about 12% of the Palestinian Arab minority in Israel. Half live in the poorest recognised localities in Israel, the other half lives in villages unrecognised by the state.
Unrecognised villages
Over 100 Palestinian Arab villages in Israel are not recognised officially and not shown on any map. Over 70,000 Palestinian Arab citizens live in these villages threatened with destruction and prevented from development or even from repairing existing homes or building new ones. They are denied all forms of basic services and infrastructure - such as drinking water and health clinics- and are unable to build or develop their communities in any way.
Despite the fact that most of the “unrecognised villages” existed before the establishment of Israel, state policy considers their inhabitants as lawbreakers. It prevents them from repairing existing homes or building new ones; withholds basic rights, such as drinking water and health clinics; and in certain cases even fences off whole villages. and make their traditional lands available for settlement programmes for Jews only.
Hermes
Repecting Religion and Gay People
16.12.2004 10:12
As to the question of the Zionists being anti-gay then anyone, who has been outside M&S the last two times there has been a counter protest, could have witnessed it with their own eyes and ears. Homophobic abuses and gestures were made against VTI picketers (as was reported to the police) and vile anti-gay bile was shouted about "arabs". It was all shouted out in the streets so there is no way they can deny it.
John
Not bad
16.12.2004 11:51
Far better equality than was afforded to Jews who used to live in Syria, Iraq and Iran
Far better equality than is afforded to Sudanese Muslims by Sudanese Arabs
Far better equality than is afforded to the Tibetans by the Chinese
Far better equality than is afforded to the Chechens by the Russians
At least we have an elected Parliament - unlike our neighbours
We have a bill of rights - unlike our neighbours
So yes - we are real bastards - no wonder you want to destroy us.
When you think about what is going on in the world _ I can really see why you single out Israel as the worst.
Plainly - you are obsessed with Jews (as indicated above, this was a typical trait of the Nazis - just like you )
Israeli
we will take you to the cleaners
16.12.2004 13:43
c u in court bob
betar gang
To the cleaners
16.12.2004 17:58
Legal eagle
Israel sends aid to Sudanese Muslims
16.12.2004 19:07
Jerusalem Post 16.12.04
In what Israeli officials are calling a first, Israel is sending some $20,000 in aid to Sudan to help alleviate the humanitarian crisis there.
On Wednesday, Israel joined with several US Jewish groups in sending $100,000 to support the International Rescue Committee and aid children in Sudan and Chad orphaned by the civil war in Sudan's Darfur region.
Sudanese refugees and human rights groups say government-sponsored Arab militias known as the Janjaweed are killing tens of thousands of black Muslims in Darfur in a campaign of ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Muhammad Yahya, a native of Darfur and founder of a group called Representatives of the Massaleit Community in Exile, said his countrymen are grateful for the assistance and astonished by its source.
"We have been taught for all our lives, from the primary school to the university, that you are the top enemy for Muslims and Arabs all over the world," Yahya said of the Jews and Israelis behind the $100,000 effort. Now, he said, "we realized that what we have been taught all our lives is a kind of a rumor. When we have been killed, you are protecting us; when we are displaced, you are trying to save us; when our people are murdered and raped, you are there trying to help us."
Yahya said he is grateful for the American Jewish support and the aid from Israel, which Arye Mekel, Israel's consul-general in New York, called Israel's first humanitarian support to residents of an Arab country with which it has no diplomatic ties.
"You are the voice of the voiceless," Yahya said. "We need to support each other and stand by you and support you forever."
"I tell my people in Sudan and in Darfur: Please forget about the rumors that the Israeli people are our enemy," he said. "They are not enemies anymore."
Jewish groups collectively have sent more than $1 million in aid to humanitarian causes in Sudan since the violence in Darfur took a turn for the worse in early 2003, according to the American Jewish World Service, which supports humanitarian and economic projects in the developing world.
Earlier this year, the organization helped create the Jewish Coalition for Sudan Relief, a collection of some 15 groups. The groups involved in the new $100,000 aid package are the Union for Reform Judaism, the New Jersey MetroWest Federation and UJA-Federation of New York, in addition to the 15-member coalition, AJWS and Israel.
Mekel said Israel decided to send the aid along with American Jewish groups to stress that Israel and the Jews work together when it comes to Jewish values issues.
"The State of Israel is following the developments in Darfur carefully, and as a people who has gone through persecution, we could not sit idly on the sidelines through such a devastating humanitarian disaster," he said. "This is according to the Jewish values."
The civil war in Sudan has been waxing and waning since 1983, but the violence escalated in Darfur, a farming region in the western part of the country, in February 2003. Since then, an estimated two million Sudanese have been displaced as the Janjaweed, nomadic Arab tribesmen armed by the Sudanese government, began raping, maiming and murdering their black African farming neighbors, according to humanitarian experts. The Khartoum government has tacitly encouraged the violence and exploited the ethnic tensions in a bid to control Darfur's water and arable land resources, they said.
"These are people who had a functional lifestyle and have lost everything they've owned," Ruth Messinger, president of the American Jewish World Service, said in August after a visit to Sudan. "The nature of life in these places is really appalling."
So let the VTI criticise this when they raise not one word against the Sudanese Arabs !
Jewish and Proud
This is the Israeli way, the Jewish way!
...
16.12.2004 21:22
One, Sudan and China don't commit their human rights abuses with direct Western militiary aid, and this issue is something that involves the US and Britain much more deeply. And since the attacks of September 11th, it's an issue that, actually, involves our lives and way of life as well. It's within both our interests to solve this conflict, and I am telling you, that the way you are supporting, the dispossession of a people who lived on that land for centuries before you, is bad for them, is bad for Jews, and is bad for those of us now dragged into an idiotic 'War on Terror', that is eating away at our civil liberties in the name of imperialist policies in the middle east.
So don't try and deflect the spotlight elsewhere. We're not at war with Tibetans because of our one-sided support of China, or at war with the black Sudanese because of our one sided support of Arabs. But we are killing Iraqis, weapons sold to Israel are killing Palestinian men, women and children. That is the reality of British and US involvement. And that's why we campaign on this point. It affects us as well.
Running out of ground to stand on, now? Seriously, I don't hate Israel or Israelis. I have been there several times, and it saddens me to see such beautiful people treating the Palestinians like animals. It strikes me as strange as how they can talk to me about such interesting topics, and we can hang out on the beach at Eilat and talk about football, but when I see them at a checkpoint, when they meet a Palestinian, their faces turn hard, and they view them as little more than dirt.
Is that good for the Jewish people? Is racism good for any people? In the name of what? Abandoning basic human respect for a state and a flag, for concepts that are little more than mental illusions, and blind you from seeing that we are all human beings, and all deserve equal love and respect.
Hermes
Are suicide bombings not an abuse of human rights Hermes?
17.12.2004 09:26
When abuses have been committed, then they should of course be condemned anywhere, however you seem obsessed with Israel and have a distorted view that it is worse than any of the above.
Israel, since coming into existence has brought so much good to the world;
Israel has developed farming and irrigation methods which were exported for free to African countries to assist in development
Israel has developed leading medicines and has spearheaded scientific advances such as the recent award winning 'PillCam', a tiny camera that patients swallow so that doctors can see their digestive tract and 'ExAblate 2000', a nonsurgical way to destroy tumors
by focusing ultrasound waves on them.
Israel has produced doctors, scientists and academics who have lectured and taught their skills acrosss the world.
Israel has developed a special unit in the army to rescue people from earthquakes; it is notable that Israel is not on a fault line and so these soldiers risk their lives helping countries who do; Turkey being a recent example.
Professors Avram Hershko and Aaron Ciechanover from the Technion-Israel Institute of Technology, Haifa are the winners of the Nobel Prize in Chemistry for 2004. They won the prestigious prize together with Professor Irwin Rose from the University of California-Irvine.
Professors Hershko and Ciechanover, from the Technion's Bruce and Ruth Rappaport Faculty of Medicine, are the first researchers to identify the Ubiquitin system, responsible for the dissolution of proteins within the cell, thereby producing a breakthrough in research in cancer, degenerative brain diseases and many other diseases. The three scientists uncovered a process that governs such key processes as cell division, DNA repair, maintaining quality control of newly produced proteins and functioning of the body's immune defenses. Their discovery caused a profound change in scientific grasp of processes within cells.
Prof. Aaron Ciechanover was Prof. Hershko's student and together they succeeded in achieving this breakthrough which won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry. Both are past winners of the Israel Prize. The two scientists expressed their pride in being the first two Israelis to win Nobel prizes for science, and their satisfaction that their colleague at UC Irvine was also honored.
The President of the Technion, Prof. Yitzhak Apeloig, expressed his great delight and satisfaction, in the name of all the members of the Technion family, on the historic achievement of these Technion researchers. "This is a mark of distinction for Israeli science generally and for the Technion in particular," he said.
Shocking really that some twisted logic has caused some 'academics' to seek an academic boycott of Israel when we have given so much to the world.
So Hermes & Co; if you must be obsessed with Israel then you must look at the wonderful things she does too.
Just for once think about it.
If any of your friends or relatives suffer from cancer or heart disease; they are being treated with Israeli drugs.
Israeli
Betar
17.12.2004 14:16
This is the same Betar which was born out of the Fascist movement and especially its strong links with Mussolini. Abba Achimier, whose regular column in Doar Hayom (a Betar newspaper) was entitled "From a Fascist's Notebook," He even wrote that "the various socialists and democrats are of the opinion that Hitler's movement is just a shell, but we believe it has both shell and substance. The anti-Semitic shell must be disposed of, but not the anti-Marxist substance."
Just look at Betar's founder and leader the brownshirted, Ze'ev Jabotinsky (
By 1934, Jabotinsky and his Betar youth movement had made an alliance with Il Duce, when the Betar established a naval training academy at Civitavecchia, Mussolini's naval base north of Rome. L'Idea Sionistica, Betar's Italian-language magazine, described the dedication ceremonies which launched the academy: "The order — 'Attention!' A triple chant ordered by the squad's commanding officer — 'Viva L'Italia, Viva Il Re! Viva Il Duce!' resounded, followed by the benediction which Rabbi Aldo Lattes invoked in Italian and in Hebrew for God, for the King, and for Il Duce ... 'Giovinezza' [the fascist party's anthem] was sung with much enthusiasm by the Betarim."
Mussolini endorsed Jabotinsky in 1935, saying, "For Zionism to succeed, you need to have a Jewish state with a Jewish flag, and Jewish language. The person who really understands that is your fascist, Jabotinsky."
Il Duce gave his personal endorsement to the project in 1936, when he visited Civitavecchia and reviewed the Betar cadre force. It was not a mere coincidence that the universal uniform of Betar was the fascist brownshirt.(
One only need look at it own documents on their website (
"The building of Betar is founded upon the principles of discipline. Our aim is to make Betar such a world organism which, at a sign from the center, will be able simultaneously to move tens of thousands of hands in the cities of all countries...For it is the highest achievement of a mass of free men, if they are capable to act in unison, with the absolute precision of a machine...Discipline is the subordination of a mass to one leader."
Its expansionism is overt "The first step, that deed without which there can be no Zionism, or a Jewish state, or a real Jewish nation, is the creation of a Jewish majority in Eretz Yisrael on both sides of the Jordan." And its nature "Here are several social laws pertaining to our colonization as comprehended and proclaimed by Betar:
a) 100% Jewish Labor in all Jewish enterprises. Otherwise these are, from the colonizatory viewpoint, worthless. The worst of all national crimes in Palestine is the boycott of Jewish Labor.
b) Decent labor conditions for the Jewish Worker. Otherwise, he will be unable to emigrate and Palestine will then never be a Jewish State."
When it comes to peace or social justice they explictly state that "all other ideas, though they be beautiful and humane, should influence us only in so far as they do not hinder the rebuilding of a Jewish state. When one of these ideas becomes, even if indirectly, an obstacle on the road to a Jewish state, it must be mercilessly sacrificed in favor of the one ideal."
And it view of women uses the same familiar for of rhetoric in the section on The Girl in Betar. "The task of the woman, then as ever, was to transform all the material the man brought home into real food, suitable clothes and general comfort. She has a natural inclination for order, she foresees things necessary not only today but tomorrow as well. As to their role in Betar's view of the world they say "An important branch of colonization is house management...Betar will probably develop the highest appreciation and enthusiasm for the conception of "Hachshara Baithith" (house management).
It great interaction with those who have not yet come to Israel as they should if they want to be "normal", "healthy" Jews is to produce Israeli goods for the Diaspora and the good they will produce are set out in "the first convention of Betar (Vienna 1928) resolved that the Betar uniforms especially the brown shirts (which, by the way, were worn before one had heard of the German Nazi movement) should be made by Jewish weavers in Eretz Yisrael."
John
...
17.12.2004 19:19
South Africa also made some astounding technological inventions and contributions. At the moment China is leading the way in many fields of technology. And don't forget the United States. But this does not make them immune to criticism, when in the shadow of these glorious achivements comes the oppression and dispossesion of millions.
Capitalism is giving wonderful benefits to a select few, off the backs of millions of suffering people in third world countries. Are the achievements of the modern, capitalist world worth the price of the immense inequality that exists today. I greatly admire the achievements of Jewish scientists, philosophers and mystics. Many of these, in the past, were done side by side with Islamic scientists, philosophers and mystics. The achievements of Israel-Palestine could be more than TWICE AS GREAT if the Israelis and Palestinians lived side by side in one state, with equal rights, working and living together.
As to your point that I am 'obsessed' with Israel, well, one, I'm working in Venezuela at the moment, and two I replied to that by saying that Israel is CENTRAL to what our countries have currently been dragged into, the 'War on Terror'. I didn't pay much attention to the situation until September 11th, and when we started bombing Afghanistan and Iraq. We are involved, against our will, in this problem. Our governments are destroying our civil liberties and killing thousands of people overseas in the name of US global domination, of which ISRAEL plays a key role in the middle-east. And that is the crux of the whole matter.
The policy of British imperialism was divide and conquer, and it succeeded at first, by playing one ethnic group off against the other. In British Mandate Palestine, they played the Jews and the Arabs against each other. But one day you will see that you are much closer to the Palestinians than you would like. How many 'Israeli' foods are in fact Arab as well, like felafel. How much is the religion similar, and deeply are the histories entwined? And the history is not marred by as much sorrow as the shared history of the Jews and the Europeans.
The solution to this problem is as important to non-Jews as it is to Jews, and I will keep working on this issue until there is one state in the middle-east, independent of US imperial ambitions, in which the Jewish people and the Palestinians live side by side together as equals. There is no hatred in that ideology, and so you cannot shame me or silence me with cries of 'nazi'. We will be as persistent as the ocean, and one day your hard exterior will be worn down, and you will see the truth of what we were saying.
Hermes
Re: Betar
19.12.2004 18:53
I seriously wonder whether some of the younger Betar members in London actually know the history of their organisation. I don't see any of them wearing the shirts and stuff on their counter-demo. Maybe in 21st century Britain Betar has adopted a softer image so as not to put off new members, in a similar way to how the BNP has attempted to create a 'respectable' image for itself in recent years (but without watering down their vile racism below the surface). Betar are always ranting on about "THE FASCISM OF THE FAR LEFT !!!" when we are doing our picket in London and calling us Nazis etc. Now the "Betar gang" have posted a threat here. They are oblivious to how infantile and deluded they show themselves to be! :O :O :O So there's a strong possiblity at least some of them have no clue what Betar really is. Either that or they are brazen liars.
Ria
Hermes - you are talking rubbish
20.12.2004 10:21
So we will continue to defend ourselves and we will not give in. Stand outside Marble Arch as long as you want. However we know that to not have a state means to be at the mercy of vicious racists like you and John; over thousands of years of persecution, we have learnt this the hard way. So there will be two seperate states but one will always be Israel!
You just cannot handle it when we are not at your mercy can you? You cant accept that we can fight back?
Yes - it is Israel which allows these wonderful scientific, agricultural and academic advances - yes Jews have always given much to the world on these fronts, however how many were not allowed to teach or study or even live under other regimes.
Israel protects them so that they can benefit the world.
If you want to boycott Israeli goods (G-d forbid we be able to buy kosher food); then that includes many medicines, mobile phone chips, computer programs (all Microsoft are de-bugged in Haifa) etc etc etc.
John - I have told you to stop lying. Betar are nothing to do with facsism. You re-write history worse than Hollywood or David Irving. You plainly cannot help but lie to try to win arguments. You will have to learn the hard way when they sue you.
John - stop making it up
...
20.12.2004 22:52
I came back from a weekend away to find after my last comment, your argument had completely disintegrated from anything rational, and had fallen into insults and paranoid fantasy.
When the Blacks were liberated in South Africa, did they go on a killing spree of whites? No. Because the whites still have power over themselves and many of their interests. They didn't lay down all their weapons, lie on the ground, and say 'Do with us what you will?'.
And that is not what the Israelis will do. Maybe they will be a minority in one single state, but they will be a powerful minority, and not one that can easily be messed with. You are a paranoid, surrounding yourself with all the most hi-tech weapons and walls, possessing one of the strongest armies in the world, and ironically terrified of annihilation.
Of course, this paranoia is a consequence of the holocaust. But the collective psyche of the Jewish people needs to heal from that, not embark down this path of mindless nationalism and racism. Your final response was very enlightening for me, though, because I dug past and responded to all your points in a rational manner, until you could no longer stand on reason, and showed me the emotion behind all your actions.
And that emotion is fear.
So I hope that one day you can face that fear inside yourself, and recognise it for what it truly is, a mental illusion, that makes you see the world in terms of differences, and prevents you from seeing that we are all one, and that maybe one day you will be able to walk into a cafe in Nablus, sit down with your Palestinian brothers, and feel happy to have outgrown such a consuming and self-abusing ideology.
Hermes
Zionism is Anti-Semitism
20.12.2004 23:03
Start Time: Thu Aug 05 14:39:57 PDT 2004
End Time: Thu Aug 05 15:53:52 PDT 2004
______________________________________
Rabbi E: Welcome. I'll be with you in a moment..., but you should
know, I AM SO GLAD YOU ARE HERE!
dudester: is israel a zionist state?
Rabbi E: what do u mean by that?
dudester: i'm looking to Judaism and Zionism, and to see if there are
differences between them. I have heard the Orthodox Judaism is opposted
and that Israel is a Zionist state rather than a Jewish state.
Rabbi E: truth be told there are different types of zionism
Rabbi E: the zionism that ur referring to says that we jews as a people
should have a country LIKE ANY OTHER PEOPLE
dudester: from your view, what is zionism?
Rabbi E: well any jew who believes in the torah is a zionist meaning -
that israel is the homeland of the jewish people and we should live
there
dudester: but under torah law, ACCORDING TO THE JEWISH FAITH AND TORAH
LAW THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE FORBIDDEN TO HAVE THEIR OWN STATE WHILE
AWAITING THE MESSIANIC ERAi have got that from www.nkuk.org. also whist
talking here last night, i was told that it is not permitted to fight for
israel but once it is yours it is forbidden to give it away.
Rabbi E: ok. so what is ur question?
dudester: ok! is Israel a Jewsih State or a Zionist state, if orthdox
Judaism and Zionism are to different things.
Rabbi E: it is currently a zionist state with many many jews living
there
dudester: ok, if some is Anti-zionist, are they also anti-semtic?
dudester: some=someone
Rabbi E: in the vast majority of cases yes
dudester: in your view would someone who is anti-zionist are they
anti-semtic?
Rabbi E: it depends on the anti zionism
Rabbi E: but like i said, usually
dudester: what types of anti zionism would make someone anti semtic?
Rabbi E: brb
dudester: ok
Rabbi E: please hold on
Rabbi E: this is Rabbi Avi sitting in for Rabbi Eilfort. How can I
help you today?
dudester: ok! i was talking about israel and if it was a zionist or a
jewish state. also what types of anti zionism would make someone anti
semitic aswell!
Rabbi E: I don't understand our question.
dudester: ok! Rabbi Eilfort said that depend on the anti zionism which
would make someone antisemtic. i am wondering what types of
Anti-zionism would make someone anti semtic.
Rabbi E: against our teachings and Jewish behavior
dudester: doesn't zionism go against jewish teaching, as it believes in
the creation of a land for jewish people, where as according to torah
law the jewish people are forbidden to have their own state while
awaiting the messianic era?
dudester: i'm not jewish by the way
Rabbi E: It does. Theoretically it Zionism is anti-Semitism
dudester: i've got to go now. it's been interesting talking to yourself
and Rabbi Eilfort!
Rabbi E: thank you!
If Zionism is Anti-Semitism, therefore Zionists are Racists!
Betar is a Zionist organtisation, therefore it would be an Anti-Semitic Organistion!
Anon
Hermes is right
21.12.2004 02:29
Just so you know someone has seen what you put.
What your saying is right
Any type of oppression is wrong, but can't be used to justifed to oppress another people. Yes, the Jewish people have been the most oppressed people! 6 million of the 11 million killed (11 million TOO MANY) in the Holocaust. (I have heard from one source the holocaust could of been as high as 15 million people killed)
Can this justify the suffering of the Palestinians?
If England had a black government, and they choose to opprose white people, because of oppression that we have treated them since the slave trade, would it be a justifiable reason?
Everyone should be equal, with equal rights!
English and Not Proud
Please sue me - Betar is fascist
21.12.2004 11:43
At no point are counter-arguments put, no other evidence offered, no defence made. It is not a case of re-writing history to deny the holocaust - I thorought accept the horrors of the holocaust which makes the collaboration of Zionist groups like Betar all the more reprehensible. Anyone who is interested need only to follow the links or read about it in any book on the subject.
It would be great to put it all on the record in a nice big libel trial.
John
Yes we have a right to fear
21.12.2004 12:49
That is a straight forward fact.
When Jews cannot practice their religion in Russia - we bring them to Israel
When Ethiopoan Jews were to be forced to convert - we airlifted them.
The 'askmoses' Nuturei Karta rabbis are a tiny faction. Most Rabbis believe in the State.
If we have no State (as you called for Hermes) then there will be no army of Jews and we will be wiped out as various Imams and Ayatollas and Arab leaders and people have repeatedly called for.
What you suggest would lead to the deaths of 5 million Jews and a carte blanche to opress Jews living anywhere else.
Then you and your friends can all feel better as the Jews will be weak again and you can feel sorry for us. Which is how it is meant to be.
we want peace. We made peace with Jordan and Egypt. We pray Abbas will be a partner in peace. We do not hate - we want to live together; but the reality is most of the world has made very clear that they do not want us. So we protect ourselves and will continue to do so.
But we do not hate
Finally...
21.12.2004 14:31
'The only thing that protects the Jews is the State of Israel, and the armies of Jews. The rest of the world does not want us.'
This is the driving emotion behind it all. I don't know what to say to that, except I want the Jews. They have enriched the world in numerous ways, through science, art and philosophy. They were a driving dynamic of the Renaissance, and the Enlightenment. Think of how many left-wing heroes are Jewish, from Marx to Chomsky.
It is not hatred to want the Israelis to stop grinding the Palestinians under their heel. If your friend wants to commit murder, are you a better friend if you sit back and let him do it, or if you intervene and stop him.
And eventually, don't you see how ridiculous is the notion of a nation state protecting you, in an ever more globalised world. The Jews are still a minority in the world, and they will always be so, unless something dramatic happens to the Chinese, for example. At the moment, Israel exists by the grace of the United States. What if the United States decided not to support Israel? How many instances in, for example, Arab history have we seen the Jews given an elevated status at one point in an empire, only to be persecuted at a later stage.
How does the State of Israel provide the Jews with any more protection? It didn't protect them from the Romans. There is always a bigger fish in the sea. It is foolish to seek security in nationalism, when all throughout history nations have risen and fallen. In reality, there is no such thing as security. You could be hit by a car tommorow. Environmental catastrophe could wipe out scores of nations in a flash.
The only thing that matters is how you live your life while you are alive, whether you want to spend it searching for illusionary 'security', denying the whole world and surrounding yourself with steel, or whether you want to spend it pursuing something greater.
Anyway, I don't know what more I can say on the matter. It is difficult to make myself heard against the harsh collective memory of the holocaust. I hope that pain doesn't drive you all your life.
Peace
Hermes
you just dont get it
21.12.2004 16:06
I wish we all lived in your fuzzy friendly and naive little world, where everyone can just be trusted to be nice and borders dont matter and leaders are not corrupt and people can believe what they want and no be persecuted.
However this is not true and harsh realities are that there is little trust, corrupt leaderships and a whole heap of hatred.
I asked you some time ago about the wonderful things which come from Israel and I asked if you would be boycotting them to.
You were referred to the aid from Israel to Sudan - should that have been disallowed as it came from Israel?
Should Israel not have exported its irrigation and farming advances to many African states at no charge, allowing desert land to be farmed, just as they were Israeli?
You were told of the Israeli army rescue unit which digs people out of earthquakes in countries such as Turkey - should we condemn this?
Should cancer and heart deseise drugs be taken off the market as they were produced by Israeli companies.?
I asked why you never refer to the wonderful things Israel does. You did not answer.
Israel, since joining the UN has given more to the world in terms of art, science, medicine and technology than perhaps any other country, at least of comparable size.
I challenge you to name another country who has joined the UN at or since the time Israel joined who has given anything to the world, as Israel has.
Name one neighbour of Israel who has offered similar advances to the world.
And bear in mind that Israel has done this in the face of wars wherein they were outnumbered and outgunned, in the face of terror against children and the harsh gaze of a hateful world.
Now Herman. Instead of twisting a few words i have said herein, why not just think about the amazing things Israel does and why not think what more could be done if we were supported instead of facing terror and the vile rhetoric of the apologists of terror.
Israeli
Doing good things and fear doesn't make the killing of Palestinians right!
21.12.2004 18:21
to repeat what Hermes has said, would you support a friend who murdered someone???
The fact that Israel does a good to help the world, it doesn't justify the suffering of the Palestinians, Think back to Gaza in Septmember. Palestinians kill 2 Israelis, and Isreal kills OVER 100 Palestinians. Does that seam right? would it be right if Palestinians killed over 100 Israelis if they killed just 2 Palestinians??? NO! It wouldn't!!! Hitler probably did alot of good things, but that does not make the killing of 6 million jews, along with 5 million other people, right!
Not all the AskMose.com are Neturei Karta Rabbi's! Israel exsistance is based on Zionism, not Judaism!
The simple fact is that the Palestinians are resisting an occupation by Israel!
English and Not Proud
Not true - we are not the murderers
22.12.2004 09:14
Israel has not done this. They have rather targeted the bomb engineers, the men who send them, the terror cell leaders.
In October Israel targeted those who were firing Katusha rockets into Israel at Kindergartens and schools, anywhere they landed they were sent with a prayer that they would kill and spread terror.
Three people died in these attacks and they were set to carry on. That is why Israel responded by targeting the terrorists who were firing the rockets. Otherwise they would continue to rain on our children, it being only a matter of time until more died.
Whilst I have the utmost sympathy with the Palestinian people and do hope that one day we live side by side as two states in peace, I am astonished that you do not realise that those who have caused more suffering to the Palestinians are their own vile and corrupt leaders.
Arafat's secret assets have been estimated at anywhere between $200 million (Forbes magazine) and $6 billion (US and Israeli intelligence). Forbes listed him sixth in its 2003 ranking of the world's wealthiest "kings, queens and despots."
While his people suffered.
I am astonished that you do not see it as wrong that terrorists fire rockats at schools. Occupied or not, that is wrong!
I am astonished that you think that Israel is singularly to blame for the suffering of the Palestinians when Jordan killed 20,000 and Egypt refused to take Gaza back after making peace with Israel.
Now will you give a straight answer to my friend's question and say whether we should be boycotting the amazing things Israel has done? Yes or No?
If any of your family suffer from cancer will you ask them to just die, as many of the life saving drugs and processes are Israeli? Yes or No?
Jewish & Proud
...
22.12.2004 10:39
'Think of the amazing scientific advances the Germans made in the Second World War, and what things they could have achieved if they'd been supported rather than fought against, and this while at war with all their neighbours.'
But that didn't stop them from committing terrible evil.
If I spend my days helping old ladies across the street, and working for charity, but at nighttime at home I torture puppies, does that make me a good person?
How can you be so oblivious to the suffering of the Palestinians? How can you be in such a deep state of denial? What is being judged is not the good things that Israelis have achieved. Can't you see that by following the path of oppression, you taint those very achievements? Are the Germans remembered throughout history for Rocket Science, or Genocide?
Finally, I do not live in a fluffy world. I seem to be more aware of the realities than you do, as you do not acknowledge the terrible suffering of the Palestinians that I have seen on the ground. I told you that every nation will fall, which is why it is stupid to put your faith in nationalism. It is you that live in a fluffy fantasy world, if you believe that the Nation of Israel will provide security, when all the world can see that the situation in the middle east is becoming more and more dangerous every day.
What if Iran gets nuclear weapons? Will the Jewish people be more secure then, all together in Israel?
Nationalism is a mental illusion, a beautiful dream, that grips people from time to time, and has people praising the glorious achievements of 'THEIR' country, 'THEIR' people, better than all other nations and people, under their beautiful flag, while grinding those that get in the way beneath their heels.
Hermes
Get it right you muppet
22.12.2004 14:02
Thus if Betar are pro-zionist they are not anti semitic
You are anti zionist and are thus anti semitic
But then we knew this.
By the way I would be interested if you could point out the part in the torah where it says we cannot have a Jewish state until the messiah comes.
I am certain there is no such comment and I have read the torah.
Jewish and proud
Wrong again Herm
22.12.2004 15:59
Germany tried to wipe out an entire people in a systematic and brutal manner. Israel wants to defend its people and has targeted only terrorists.
To compare us shows how little you know and how ignorant you are.
You are devoid of respect
You cannot handle it when you cannot feel sorry for Jews. How dare we stick up for ourselves.
Clearly we have no basis for dialogue
Israeli
Sticks and Stones May break my bones, but names will never hurt me
23.12.2004 01:00
1. Like the Rabbi said, MOST, not ALL, but they also said…
“Rabbi E: It does. Theoretically it Zionism is anti-Semitism”
2. I never stated that it was written in the Torah! (unless Torah Law is in the Torah, then I stand corrected!)
“dudester: doesn't zionism go against jewish teaching, as it believes in
the creation of a land for jewish people, where as according to TORAH LAW the jewish people are forbidden to have their own state while
awaiting the messianic era? …
…Rabbi E: It does. Theoretically it Zionism is anti-Semitism”
Jewish friends of mine do agree with the statement I made above, aswell as someone I talked to on another picket (not Manchester)!
When it comes the idea of Zionism, according to a friend of mine who is converting to Judaism, I had had a brief conversation on if they believe Zionism is part of Judaism. They response was that most Orthodox do believe that it is, where as most Reconstructionist, Reform and Conservitives Jews don’t.
Also, below is part of another conversation I have had with a Rabbi from AskMoses.com
“Chana Weisberg: it is not permitted to fight for Israel
dudester: i'm confused what u mean by it is no permitted to fight for
israel? do you mean to fight for the creation of israel?
Chana Weisberg: yes”
Which backs up what the other Rabbi was saying!
3. To true know what was written in the torah, you would have to read a Torah from when Judaism came in to existence, as according to a Jewish friend of my has told me is that the Torah has been re-written.
4. To respond to your friend, No and No.
5. A question for Jewish & Pround and Israeli.
Where should people live and feel free of discrimination and persecution????
a "muppet"
me again
23.12.2004 01:27
the answer to your friend is Yes and No! not No and No
Oh btw Jewish and Proud, i know people that have died of cancer, one being a family member.
So J&P, is killing people who are without an army, by the 4th largest army an amazing thing?????
A Muppet
Longest thread ever?
23.12.2004 14:56
But I still admire your attempts to try. And John's. Because anyone who is not actually Betar and their mates who reads these debates may decide which side is telling the truth and has the political and moral arguments on their side. That will make the energy put inot this worth it.
For the record, I think this whole 'the existence of Israel is against Jewish teaching' discussion is a red herring. Jews, like Muslims, Christians, Hindus etc have different strands to their beliefs. Just as Shias think one thing, Sunnis another; Protestants one Catholics another, etc, some Jews believe that 'next year in Jerusalem' is to be taken literally, others don't. I loathe Israel and Zionism and am happy that some Jewish people oppose them, but see no point in the irreligious (most of us) preaching to the religious or semi-religious on what they should believe.
But, yes, 'Israeli' there is another small state that has contributed much to the world, has pioneered new medicines (against meningitis for example,) has more doctors working internationally than the IMO, regularly sends teams of people to help with earthquake and hhurricane construction, etc etc. This state is Cuba and it has achieved these things not only without a million dollars a day in US aid, but in the face of a trade embargo by tthe US. Interestingly, this is a state that many Palestinians look to for inspiration, or so it would seem when you see pictures of Palestinians waving Cuban flags and pictures of Che Guevara.
London VTI person
Okay Muppet you must be right
24.12.2004 09:17
OK. So I understand that you are ticked off at Israel, and in
love
>with the
> Palestinians. That's fine with me, as long as you have truly
weighed >up all
> the facts.
>
> So, you want to boycott Israel?
> I'll be sorry to miss you, but if you are doing it - do it
properly. >Let me
> help you.
>
> Check all your medications.
> Make sure that you do not have tablets, drops, lotions, etc.,
made
by >Abic
> or Teva. It may mean that you will suffer from colds and flu this
>winter
> but, hey, that's a small price for you to pay in your campaign
against
> Israel, isn't it?
>
> While we are on the subject of your Israeli boycott, and the
medical
> contributions to the world made by Israeli doctors and
scientists,
how
> about telling your pals to boycott the following.....
>
> An Israeli company has developed a simple blood test that
>distinguishes
> between mild and more severe cases of Multiple Sclerosis. So,! if
you >know
> anyone suffering from MS, tell them to ignore the Israeli patent
that >may,
> more accurately, diagnose their symptoms.
>
> An Israeli-made device helps restore the use of paralysed hands.
This
> device electrically stimulates the hand muscles, providing hope
to
>millions
> of stroke sufferers and victims of spinal injuries. If you wish
to
>remove
> this hope of a better quality of life to these people, go ahead
and >boycott
> Israel.
>
> Young children with breathing problems will soon be sleeping more
>soundly,
> thanks to a new Israeli device called the Child Hood. This
innovation
> replaces the inhalation mask with an improved drug delivery
system
>that
> provides relief for child and parent. Please tell anxious mothers
that
>they
> shouldn't use this device because of your passionate cause.
>
> These are just a few examples of how people have benefitted
medically >from
> the Israeli know-how you wish to block.
>
> Boycotts often affect research. A new resear! ch center in Israel
>hopes to
> throw light on brain disorders such as depression and Alzheimer's
>disease.
> The Joseph Sangol Neuroscience Center in the Sheba Medical Center
at >Tel
> HaShomer Hospital aims to bring thousands of scientists and
doctors to
> focus on brain research.
>
> A researcher at Israel's Ben Gurion University has succeeded in
>creating
> human monoclonal antibodies which can neutralise the highly
contageous
> smallpox virus without inducing the dangerous side effects of the
>exisiting
> vaccine.
>
> Two Israelis received the 2004 Nobel Prize in Chemistry. Doctors
> Ciechanover and Hershko's research and discovery of one of the
human >cells
> most important cyclical processes will lead the way to DNA
repair,
>control
> of newly produced proteins, and immune defense systems.
>
> The Movement Disorder Surgery program at Israel's Hadassah
Medical
>Center
> has successfully eliminated the physical manifestations of
Parkinson's
> disease in a select group of p! atients with a deep brain
stimulation
> technique.
>
> For women who undergo hysterectomies each year for the treatment
of >uterine
> fibroids, the development in Israel of the ExAblate 2000 System
is
a
> welcome breakthrough, offering a non-invasive alternative to
surgery.
>
> Israel is developing a nose drop that will provide a five year
flu
>vaccine.
>
> These are just a few of the projects that you can help stop with
your
> Israeli boycott.
>
> But let's not get too obsessed with medical research, there are
other >ways
> you can make a personal sacrifice with your anti-Israel boycott.
>
> Most of Windows operating systems were developed by
Microsoft-Israel. >So,
> set a personal example. Throw away your computer!
>
> The Pentium NMX Chip technology was designed at Intel in Israel.
Both >the
> Pentium 4 microprocessor and the Centrium processor were entirely
>designed,
> developed, and produced in Israel. Voice mail technology was
developed
>in
> Israe! l. The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was
>developed in
> 1996 in Israel by four young Israeli whiz kids. Both Microsoft
and
>Cisco
> built their only R.& D. facilities outside the US in Israel.
>
> So, due to your complete boycott of anything Israeli, you now
have
>poor
> health and no computer. But your bad news does not end there.
Get >rid of
> your cellular phone !
>
> Cell phone technology was also developed in Israel by Motorola,
which >has
> its biggest development center in Israel. Most of the latest
>technology in
> your mobile phone was developed by Israeli scientists.
>
> Feeling unsettled? You should be. Part of your personal security
>rests
> with Israeli inventiveness, borne out of our urgent neccesity to
>protect
> and defend our lives from the terrorists you support.
>
> A phone can remotely activate a bomb, or be used for tactical
> communications by terrorists, bank robbers, or hostage-takers.
It is
>vi!
> tal that offocial security and law enforcement authorities have
access
>to
> cellualr jamming and detection solutions. Enter Israel's Netline
> Communications Technologies with their security expertise to help
the >fight
> against terror.
>
> A joint, non-profit, venture between Israel and Maryland will
result >in a 5
> day Business Development and Planning Conference next March.
Selected
> Israeli companies will partner with Maryland firms to provide
>innovation to
> the US need for homeland security.
>
> I also want you to know that Israel has the highest ratio of
>university
> degrees to the population in the world. Israel produces more
>scientific
> papers per capita - 109 per 10,000 - than any other nation.
Israel
has
>the
> highest number of start-up companies per rata. In absolute terms,
the
> highest number, except the US.
> Israel has ratio of patents filed. Israel has the highest
>concentration of
> hi-tech companies outside of Silicon Valley. Israel is ranked 2
in
the
> world! for venture capital funds, behind the USA. Israel has more
>museums
> per caita. Israel has the second highest publication of new books
per
> capita.
>
> Relative to population, Israel is the largest immigrant absorbing
>nation on
> earth. These immigrants come in search of democracy, religious
freedom
>or
> expression, economic opportunity, and quality of life.
>
> Believe it or not, Israel is the only country in the world which
had a
>net
> gain in the number of trees last year.
>
> So, you can vilify and demonize the State of Israel. You can
continue
>your
> silly boycott, if you wish. But I wish you would consider the
>consequences,
> and the truth.
>
> Think of the massive contribution that Israel is giving to the
world,
> including the Palestinians - and to you - in science, medicine,
> communications, security.
> Pro rata for population we are making a greater contribution than
any >other
> nation on earth.
>
> We can't be all bad.....
>
Anon
Alternatives can be Found
25.12.2004 02:20
Found what you said interesting! but still the Israel does good things debate! ok, lets see if there are ways around this!
> So, you want to boycott Israel?
> I'll be sorry to miss you, but if you are doing it - do it
properly. >Let me
> help you.
>
> Check all your medications.
> Make sure that you do not have tablets, drops, lotions, etc.,
made
by >Abic
> or Teva. It may mean that you will suffer from colds and flu this
>winter
> but, hey, that's a small price for you to pay in your campaign
against
> Israel, isn't it?
Hot Honey and Lemon! Nice, effecting, and addictive. Also Natural. The best honey seams to come from outside of Europe and the Mid East BTW!
> Most of Windows operating systems were developed by
Microsoft-Israel. >So,
> set a personal example. Throw away your computer!
>
> The Pentium NMX Chip technology was designed at Intel in Israel.
Both >the
> Pentium 4 microprocessor and the Centrium processor were entirely
>designed,
> developed, and produced in Israel. Voice mail technology was
developed
>in
> Israe! l. The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger ICQ was
>developed in
> 1996 in Israel by four young Israeli whiz kids. Both Microsoft
and
>Cisco
> built their only R.& D. facilities outside the US in Israel.
>
> So, due to your complete boycott of anything Israeli, you now
have
>poor
> health and no computer.
AMD Athlon is cheaper and FASTER + BETTER than Intel!
Unix is Free!
HEY! Anon, we still get to feel ok(ish) if we have a cold or the fle, and can still have are PC's! PROBLEM SOLVED!
Shame i don't use ICQ or AIM!
Also, use Sony Ericsson Mobile phones!
No matter what Israel does, there will always be alteratives that people can use!
Look, all the good Israel does, it does justify the bad it does!
Until the conflict is over, and a decent amount of time has past, say 30 Years, we will NOT know who is right and who is wrong until then! This is due th the fact that we are involved, with are our views on the conflict!
Personally, the occuping forces and settlements of Israel NEED to be removed from, both, the Gaza, and the West Bank, and Palestine refugees to return. Also the "Wall" needs to be destoryed. Palestines should have the right to live in Israel, if they so wish. Jewish & Proud and other Zionist before you say it, YES, attacks from Palestinian groups will continue, but taking in to account that MOST Palestinians simply just want a state to live in, be it 1, 2, or 50. (see below) Groups like Hamas will lose their following, and lose strength, thus Palestinian attacks will HOPEFULL cease to happen!
“As an occupying force that on a daily basis engages in practices humiliating to Palestinians, Israel is inciting against itself. Israel is denying basic human rights to Palestinians, and Palestinian resistance is inevitable. Most Palestinians are not prejudiced against Israelis and Palestinians do realize that not all Israelis are soldiers. There are hundreds of Israelis who support Palestinians in their struggle and work on activities to stop the Israeli aggression against Palestinians. Israeli peace activists are always welcomed by Palestinians and received in their homes.
The Palestinian majority realizes that the Israeli public is polarized and does not know the reality of daily Palestinian suffering. Palestinians believe the Israeli public is deceived by Israeli propaganda. I often hear comments that Israel is not genuine about implementing peace. I also hear Palestinians talking about steadfastness and struggle. The majority believes in a two-state solution and in a just peace for both peoples. There is a consensus, but, like in any society, it is not total. There are also Israelis on TV calling for death to Palestinians, and there were Israeli cabinet ministers calling for the assassination of Arafat, the elected president. But, it seems, for Sharon, Palestinians are not supposed to consider Israel an occupying force but a defensive one. Sharon seems to want Palestinians to stop calling his forces "occupation forces."
During the first intifada, the Israeli government closed down most schools and universities. How, then, did Palestinian children learn to throw stones? The presence of the Israeli army taught them this. At present, Palestinians suffer more than ever from the Israeli occupation, an occupation that is illegal by any standard. Recent pictures of Israeli soldiers violating dead Palestinian bodies, published in Yedioth Aharonot, are further evidence of the dehumanizing practices of an Israeli occupying force that operates from a position of unchallenged power.
The main questions now are: what does Sharon mean by incitement? Who defines what incitement is? Is incitement something that is only engaged in by the occupied? The Palestinian Authority should address these questions and refer to international law for a precise definition. Meanwhile, the international community must be balanced in monitoring incitement, but most importantly, should focus on achieving self-determination for Palestinians. There cannot be security for Israel without guaranteeing Palestinians their human rights and ending the greatest incitement of all, the Israeli occupation.”
Published 29/11/2004 (c) bitterlemons.org
Peace between Palestine and Israel will not happen in our life times, UNLESS Israel pulls out. Lets put it this way, if someone came into your home, with a gun and pointed at you, would you just sit there and do nothing, or would you defend your home??
Neutral(ish)
It is a fence not a wall and we need it
30.12.2004 13:33
I agree that the West Bank and Gaza Strip should form the basis of a Palestinian State.
The Wall is not a wall . It is a fence. I have driven the length of it.
97% is a chain linked fence which is rigged up to an intrusion detection system.
3% is concrete. The concrete parts (which are split up) are built at places where snipers shot at Israeli vehicles and people travelling on the pre-June 67 roads (including 10 month old Shalhevet Pass).
The fence is not designed to be a permanent structure and the reason it is 97% fence is that it can be easily moved.
It should be recalled that when Israel pulled out of Southern Lebanon, in fulfillment of UN resolution 425; Israel moved the fence it had constructed there to comply with the new border.
The fence has not been built along pre 1967 lines as its sole purpose is to stop terror. In the absence of a peaceful resolution and a renunciation of violence by Hamas, Al Aqsa and Islamic Jihad, there has been a stall in the peace process and communities still exist outside the 67 lines. Whether or not these communities have a right to exist in the West Bank, they should certainly not be killed by terrorists and the fence will protect them too until such a time as there is a viable partner with whom Israel can make peace and hand over that land to form a Palestinian State. Hopefully this partner will be Abbas; we must wait and see.
The immediate and pressing need is to save lives from terrorists.
This does of course inconvenience Palestinians in their day to day lives. However it is life versus convenience.
If there was no terror there would be no fence. Quite simply if the terror stops the peace process can continue and the Palestinians can have a state (as Israel signed up to in the road map) and the fence will come down or be moved.
Simply the persons who have caused the Palestinians to be inconvenienced are not the Israelis who built the fence out of desperation to stop homicide bombers, but the terrorists who forced us to build it.
Nevertheless dozens of crossing points have been set up so that Palestinian farmers can reach their farms.
We do not want to be in a self imposed prison but we have to save our families. Why can you not understand this?
We have these memorial walls near to Jerusalem on Mt Herzel which bear the names of terror victims. Three walls are full; two stand empty, waiting to be filled. That is why we need a fence.
More than 1000 people of all ages, races, beliefs and backgrounds have died in terror attacks. Thousands have been injured, many maimed for life.
Since the fence was built the only attack from Palestinian terrorists happened at the one place where the fence was not built in Beer Sheva. Two buses were blown up.
That is why we need the fence.
terror constructed the fence
Still at it
30.12.2004 17:14
But part of nationalism is believing that your race, your nation, is the best, most superior in the world, and hardly to acknowledge the achievements of other peoples.
London VTI member, you are indeed correct. It is always difficult to persuade somebody of anything if they simply deny the truth to themselves, and the evidence in front of their eyes. But it is always worthwhile trying, because maybe someone will read it, and see the truth. The fact that every argument they can put up has been successively demolished on this thread makes me feel better, equips us all with stronger arguments to use against those less fanatical than the Betar, and exercised my wrists.
Does Betar have their own message board where I can go and troll for a bit?
I'm not even going to get into the next wall argument, which has been done on numerous other threads. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Hermes
STOP TALKING CRAP HERMES
30.12.2004 19:15
There is no wall - well 3% of the fence is a wall as discussed above.
It stops people being murdered - what is your problem with that?
Just because you feel that you have sucessfully torn down our arguments does not mean that you have. We feel that your attempts to do so are pitiful - often you (or more often John) simply lie to make a point. Other times you just blame all the ills of the world on us. We know this is crap and we know the reasons behind it.
Why dont you go and live in Cuba?
In any event it is undeniable that Israel has massively benefitted the world in many ways. You do your genuine arguments an injustice by not showing these advances and benefits the respect they should be afforded.
Maybe you should be calling for peace so that Israel can continue to benefit the world, alongside a Palestinian State; rather than calling for our destruction.
As an example of the wonderful things Israel has done, please take note of their humanitarian missions in the Turkish quakes, the rejected offer of aid to Iran during the Bam quakes and the recent donations to the Sudan.
Below is a summary (from the Foreign Ministry of Israel) of the aid being sent to the Tsunami hit regions (it is worth adding that no such missions have been undertaken by Iran, Syria or Lebanon; our dear peace loving neighbours):_
In accordance with the decision of the Minister of Defense and in coordination with the Foreign Ministry, and given the dimensions of the devastation, the IDF has sent a humanitarian aid delegation and medical supplies to Sri Lanka.
In the wake of the massive international assistance and following discussions by Foreign Ministry officials with their Sri Lankan counterparts, it was decided Tuesday, 28 December 2004, to send humanitarian aid and medical supplies to the area of the devastation.
Following the request of the Sri Lankan government, a shipment of medicines, water, food, blankets and generators was sent, accompanied by a delegation of some 50 medical and rescue personnel.
The humanitarian aid and medical equipmant sent overnight to Sri Lanka contains more than 82 tons of supplies including: 10,000 blankets, 3680 liters of mineral water, 12 tons of food, 17/5 tins of baby food, over nine tons of medicine and additional supplies such as generators, tents, beds and mattresses.
IDF soldiers prepare packages for Sri Lanka
(IDF Spokesman)
IDF humanitarian mission is welcomed in Sri Lanka
(IDF Spokesman)
In addition, Magen David Adom, in coordination with the International Red Cross, at midnight Tuesday dispatched - on an El Al flight - a shipment of medicines to Sri Lanka in order to aid trauma victims.
The shipment contained 4,080 bottles of serum albumin (a protein produced from blood plasma for use in treating trauma victims, and patients suffering from malnourishment), worth over $100,000. The donation was welcomed by the Sri Lankan authorities, and will be put to immediate use to relieve the struck nation.
(Magen David Adom)
Avi Zohar, MDA's Director General issued a statement on Wednesday, December 29:
“MDA Israel, in cooperation with the International Red Cross is forming a mission delegation with medical and logistics supplies and equipment, with the aim of setting up a self-sufficient field clinic in a remote area, or combining forces with another national society. We are waiting for the Red Cross to inform us when the delegation can board the plane, and we hope to know within a matter of hours.
MDA has sent out a large cargo of albumin, a protein that accounts for 55 percent of the total protein in blood plasma. Its major function is to help maintain the osmotic pressure between the blood vessels and tissues, and it is of utmost importance during this overwhelming calamity, as protein levels drop as the result of severe wounds, and the casualties similarly suffer from drastic malnutrition and trauma.
MDA Israel upholds the principles of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement, and is proud and honored to share a close cooperation and friendship with the worldwide organization to which it aspires to belong.”
Bastards aren't we Hermes?
J&P
Point missing
31.12.2004 01:22
London VTI member
Where has all the love gone???
31.12.2004 01:46
Occupation = Resistance
Wall/Fence = Land Grab (not protection)
If the Wall/Fence was for defence, would be built on the borders, or within Israeli borders, NOT WITHIN THE WEST BANK!
Victory to Love!
Learn to Love Not Hate!!!
it is to protect people from terrorists
31.12.2004 15:40
There has been one double suicide attack in the one place where the fence was not completed.
Over 900 terror murders before it was constructed.
The fence saves lives.
I know you have a problem with that and it is clear why you do.
By the way (and I re-iterate that I would like to see a Palestinian State) - if you are so anti-nationalist, how come you are so obsessed with the creation of another state? Just seems a bit of an irony
J&P
move the wall/fence then if it there for defence!
31.12.2004 16:20
If the wall was truly there to defended the lives on Israeli's, the Israeli govenment would have built on the borders of the West Bank and Israel. How can the Israeli govenment know that it is making sure that the resistance are keep behind the wall/fence when it has been on Palestinian land??? They can't!
I have had this conversation with someone on another M&S picket (not in Manchester or London), and they agreed the wall/fence should be moved! They also said that they would like a nuclear bomb dropped on the Palestinians (or to words to those effect), but that is their racist view!
Occupation = Hate
...
01.01.2005 20:09
If you read what I say, I am not nationalist because I believe in one state for the Israelis and the Palestinians, not two seperate states. Two seperate states is unfeasible now, because of all the settlement activity in the West Bank...in fact, this is probably the reason why the withdrawal plan is on the table. Israel knows that staying means effectively annexing forever the West Bank and Gaza, and that eventually, SHOCK!!! HORROR!!! It would have to grant the Palestinians equal rights.
And this does not mean the destruction of the State of Israel. It means two peoples learning to live together in peace. Any other option will lead to deeper resentment, and one day in the future, a terrible retaliation against the Israelis. You can't keep the world out forever, hiding behind walls. I reiterate again, in an increasingly globalised world, what does a Jewish majority in Israel actually mean? Nothing. The Jews are always going to be a minority in the world. How safe does that make you when you are completely reliant on the United States for funding? What if one day...the US changes its mind, and you realise that you are completely isolated, surrounded by a people you have done everything in your power to dispossess and humiliate.
Tell me, did the end of apartheid mean the destruction of the white minority in South Africa. And there were certainly black groups who were calling for the expulsion of the whites from their land. To believe that sharing a country with an Arab majority would mean the destruction of the Jews is a completely paranoid world view, in light of the fact that every Israeli over 16 appears to be armed with an assault rifle, in light of the great power the Israelis possess overseas...it is a completely stupid opinion, but understandable, as it is forged out of the holocaust.
I believe Zionism is anti-semitism, not because of the religious opinion stated above, but because Zionism takes the old, nazi ideology 'The Jews cannot live with the rest of humanity', and says 'Yes, they are right, the Jews cannot live with the rest of humanity. Therefore, we need our own state where we can live seperately'.
If you read Theodor Herzl's book, that is the sole reason for the creation of the Jewish state. Essentially agreeing with the fascists that persecuted them.
Finally, about the good things Israel does. GOOD!!! I am glad it is giving money, like the rest of the global community, to helping the victims of the quake. But why does it insist on persecuting the Palestinians, demolishing houses, commiting torture, killing civilians, stealing land for illegal settlements. Again, it is akin to the analogy of helping little old ladies across the road in public, and torturing children at home in private.
The nationalist ideology of Zionism is, at root, paranoid and racist. It is based in fear, not love. Can you show me that it is otherwise? And can you put forward an argument a bit more advanced than denouncing me as racist, or pathetic, or twisting words, or wrong, without actually explaining why?
Anyway, I will leave off with a favorite quote of mine by a favorite scientist, Einstein.
"I should much rather see a reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together than the creation of a Jewish state. Apart from practical considerations, my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain." - Out of My Later Years, Albert Einstein
Hermes
FrontPageMagazine.com 28.12.04 What Really Happened in 1948
04.01.2005 10:04
By Sarah El Shazly
FrontPageMagazine.com | December 28, 2004
Ever since I was a child, I've heard a range of accounts of what happened to the Palestinians and Palestine. Everyone knows the Jewish version and the Arab version. But there is a third side, that of those who lived there and still do -- the Israeli Arabs.
Some Jews want us out of Israel, and some Arabs believe that we are an extension of the Zionists. Yet we Israeli Arabs keep our culture and traditions. Mahshy, or stuffed grape leaves, remains our favorite meal. We love Arabic music; we sing old folk songs, including "Wein aa Ramallah" about a famous Palestinian city, and songs from all over the Arab world. We are unique among the Arabs, though. We have vested interests on both sides -- and are angry at both sides.
Israeli Arabs have lived alongside Jews for as long as this generation can remember. We became Israeli citizens in 1948. Before that, the region wasn't quite as divided. Families lived in an area that includes the West Bank, Gaza, and Amman, and in other Arab cities in areas where borders were created later. We were divided by boundaries set by the Europeans, and those within the boundaries of Israel became "Israeli Arabs". Now, these Arabs are the unwanted, unloved, illegitimate, and have become the biracial step-child of the Middle East conflict. We have to apologize for our very existence.
Misinformation surrounds the story of 1948. Palestinians who fled their homes are angry, bitter and distraught. No one can blame them. Yet they seem to have been taught who they are supposed to hate, who is the guilty party and who should be punished for their problems. People's memories are so short. It is easier to focus on one enemy – especially an enemy who does not belong to the same "tribe" -- than to analyze a complex situation such as the Palestinian refugee disaster.
It is not my intent to discuss who belongs in that tiny region called Israel, but I will risk being shunned by my own community to set the record straight. The question is: why did Arabs flee the area that became Israel? After all, the ones who remained in their homes still live there today and prosper.
The fact is that the Arab world warned the Palestinians against staying with the Jews. They also warned them that Arabs were going in to fight the Zionists and that the Palestinians should leave to avoid getting hurt.
Many Palestinians trusted these Arab leaders and left as instructed. Those who had lived with Jews for a long time were not as easily convinced of the danger, and these Arabs stayed home. Among them was my family, which saw cars traveling the area. The cars contained Jews. They reassured Arabs that they would not be harmed. Thus, we had a situation where Jews begged Arabs to stay and live with them, while Arabs from foreign countries told them to leave right away.
Palestinians have gotten the short end of the stick in Arab society. It suits Arab leaders to keep this group in a state of poverty and conflict, and to channel all resentment toward the Jews. You don't believe me? Ask yourself why Jordan or Egypt or Syria never gave the Palestinians a country? If I hear another non-Palestinian, especially an American Muslim, repeat the phrase "over 50 years of the Zionist occupation," I'm going to burst. Can no one actually read history? It’s not ancient history, just 1948-1967. Who had that land? Even if Arabs want Palestinians to have "all" the land, this is no excuse for denying them an independent state. And yet, we blame Israel!
As a child, I watched a Syrian play about the war of October 1973. A famous Syrian comedian played a young man who fought in the war and was taken prisoner. After his release, he was detained by his own government. At one point, the guards slapped him and he started crying.
“Why are you crying?” asked a fellow prisoner, deeply puzzled. “That was only a slap. I've seen the enemies do much more to you, and you just laughed it off.”
The comedian replied, “The enemy is an enemy, and I expect that of them. Yes, a slap is only a slap -- but from a brother, it's a slap in the heart.”
Let's take this a step further. The Arab world pretends to care, watching a young Palestinian get killed by Israel on TV, justifying Jew-hatred right before they go to their cozy beds. This is the Arab world that has taught Palestinians to fight, and yet it will not give them citizenship. Where is that love -- or, for that matter, where is the passion used to justify the Palestinian issue?
Let's go to the refugees. Arab governments first used scare tactics, and then took whatever they could get from the United States and Israel. Finally, they stuck Palestinians in camps with deplorable living conditions. Why didn't they leave them alone in their homes? Why promise them refuge and reward them with nothing more than prison camps? And, most of all, why didn't they provide Palestinians with homes in the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights when Arabs had control over them?
Please do not speak of money. Palestinian refugees receive aid from all over the world, and yet their living conditions don’t seem to improve. The "hosting" governments siphon off some money to line their pockets, and the Palestinian Authority -- or lack of it -- siphons off the rest … and the poor people get nothing.
As a Palestinian, I ask the world to please stop exploiting our issue. If you want a do a good deed, find your own. To the singers romanticizing Palestinian suffering, it is not romantic. There is nothing dreamy about it. Where’s the heroism in a small child throwing rocks at a tank? Either warn the child to stay away or just shut up! How dare you do this to our children? Does our suffering give you such good video footage and high ratings?
To the average Arab citizen, stop crying crocodile tears for us. We thank you for your kind feelings, but please, don’t offer us your pity. To the Arab and Islamic governments, fix your own problems. Do not use our misery to blind your subjects to domestic problems. Are you afraid that the people will wise up, and stop hating Israel, and turn on you? You, who have condoned so much hatred, may one day pay the price. You've created monsters, and you won't be able to handle them. Worry about creating jobs for your own poor people and educating the children, and leave us alone. In short, to all those invested in driving our children to die, please, stay away from us.
By Sarah El Shazly
Why, John?!?
04.01.2005 15:06
see you soon,
LB, you know who
why did the arabs not declare a Palestinian state?
05.01.2005 09:43
The Arab world has enjoyed encouraging the suffering of their brothers as it diverts the hatred which would otherwise be turned against their leaders' corruption and ineptitude.
It is sad that there are people like yourselves who can be relied on to peddle the myth that has been created to serve this end.
You are pawns in a bigger game and it is pathetic that you cannot see this.
Certainly not a facist
Confusion!?
20.01.2005 08:30
Are you sure what you do is against the occupation of the Palestinian territories?
Are you sure its not only a form of anti-semitism?
Or just because you are jealous when some people are richer than you?
I wonder as there seems to be lots of hatress against Israel in your comments?
Tell me what Marks n Spenser is doing to support all what you blame Israel?
Why don't you want to know about all the horrors some Arab Countries have done to the Palestinians?It sounds you just are anti-semite,don't you?
I am against all occupations!!
Would you like some people will start to hate you just because you are english?But England still have occupation on other people territoties!Does that dont disturbe you?Why this isnt in the list of your fights?
People who are against Jews or Israel using the excuse of occupation are wrong, they do same things as they reproche to them.
I hate racism in all his forms!and you show here one twisted form!!!!!
peaceful man