Zionist attempt to prevent Manchester M&S Picket

The people who rallied against you were not fascist, they did not attack disabled people or women; so less of the Orwellian 'Newspeak' please.

They view you as a group who supports terrorsism; you were indeed shouting out 'No Jerusalem, no peace' and 'jihad' and several of your group expressed support for Hamas and Al Queda.

No wonder many people from the passing public joined in to express their disgust with you.

The Spanish flag (together with the Israeli, Russian, Turkish and American flag) were a show of support and solidarity with those countries and people who have lost citizens and loved ones in the campaigns of terror which you support.

I was directed to this site by one of the anti-terror group demonstrating against you. I must say I think that they are quite right and have every right to counter demonstrate against you.

From what I saw, the anti terror demonstrators were arguing fact, it was your group who made threats. One of your group, Chris, said he wants to be a suicide bomber. Is that what you agree with?

You abuse the right to free speech and are an insult to all those who have faced tragedy arising from terror attacks.

So do not tell lies, just go away. nobody wants you! Nobody listens to you!

Your views are perverse.

Re: Spanish Flags

It is clear to see that they are a bunch a fascists! They verbally attacked members of the picket! They also verbally abuse 1 female member on the picket by telling her “to take off her mask, as your scaring children”, they also chant taunts to 1 Jewish member of the picket! These are FACTS.

They intimidated members of the picket! They faked being pushed, just to try and get members of the picket arrested!

Myself, in the past, have been intimidated by these racist zionist thugs!


Re: Nobody wants you

You have been listening to a bunch of racist zionist thugs, not an "anti terror group". They support terrorism, apartheid, and the ethnic cleaning of the Palestinian people from their homeland, by the Zionist state of Israel!

If you paid attention, you would of seen that they ABUSED our freedom of speech, by using klaxons, sirens and whistles even time we tried to get out views across!

When a section 14 of the public act was used, who respected it? Not the racist Zionists! They did not stay in their designated area, and carried on the attack on our peaceful picket!

It is clear that people are listing to us, and are listen to the truth that we are telling people! Unlike people like, you who have listen to the zionist lies spread by people who support the apartheid state of Israel!


BOYCOTT ISRAELI GOODS, BOYCOTT MARKS AND SPENCER’S, BOYCOTT ISRAELI APARTHEID!

VICTORY TO THE INTIFADA, VICTORY TO THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE!

Anon,

At the demo, most, if not all of the counter protestors wanted a two state solution with a Jewish and viable Palestinian state to co-exist - hardly a fascist viewpoint.

Your group members, when questioned, said they wanted a single Palestinian State. Quite what you want to happen to the 5 million Jews living in the state which would be destroyed to make this come true, none of you made clear. The options are realistically:

1. The Jews go back to Poland - guess what would happen there?
2. The Jews get pushed in to the sea
3. The Jews remain and are wiped out, as the Arabs have tried to do on several occassions and is particularised in the Hamas Manifesto.

That is what you subscribe to. Are you suprised that the Jewish community hates you so much

You accuse us of suuporting ethnic cleansing - where is this going on - 3000 Palestinians have died, a clear majority were terrorists. Civilians have died too and every Jew at that protest detests that innocenents have died because of the actions of terrorists.

Yet the Hamas, Al Aksa and Islamic Jihad aim to target civilians and have killed 1000 and you are silent in your comdemnation of that.

Where were you when Jordan killed 25,000 Palestinians?

'Stop the Terror' wrote:

"The Spanish flag (together with the Israeli, Russian, Turkish and American flag) were a show of support and solidarity with those countries and people who have lost citizens and loved ones in the campaigns of terror which you support."

As usual the Zionists go as low as possible spreading disgusting lies to make their cause appear legitimate. I haven't been to the VTI pickets in Manchester but I regularly go to the ones in London and none of the people involved support Al Quaida. I was there on a picket when one of the Zionist speakers alleged that we supported the group that committed the attrocities in Russia. That was a sick and disgusting lie. It sickens me that to try to get support from the public the Zionists will exploit any suffering in the world to somehow link it with the Palestinians and those who support them. When we chant on the picket and write our placards, we don't need to invent lies or exaggerations about Israel and the Zionists. We only tell the truth about the barbaric genocide and misery that Israel is perpetrating!

Now I see the Zionists are exploiting the suffering of the bereaved and traumatised survivors of the Madrid bombings. You racist Zionist scum make my blood boil! You obviously know nothing about the events in Spain! Do you have any Spanish people supporting your counter-demos? The fact is most Spanish people (estimated 90% by mainstream media) were against the imperialist 'War On Terror' that you Zionists support on your counter-demo, waving your imperialist (British and US) flags! If you were waving placards with pictures of the fascist Aznar ('fascist' is not an exaggeration, he had known links to the old Franco regime), then I would understand. His government led Spain into a war which most of the people were against. And when the bombings happened, murdering innocent people in a working class area, Aznar immediately jumped up and tried exploiting the suffering and fear and grief to persuade people to support his party (just like you Betar people saw the attrocities in Russia on the news and thought, 'hey, let's use this to attack the other picket!'). BUT THE MAJORITY OF SPAINIARDS WERE NOT FOOLED AND THEY VOTED HIM OUT! They didn't want him BEFORE the bombings! MOST SPANIARDS ARE STILL AGAINST THE 'WAR ON TERROR'! How dare you Zionists claim sympathy with the people who died and their friends and families, how dare you insult their memory by flying the Israeli flag next to the Spanish flag? Why do you assume that those people would support Israel and its ethnic cleansing?

Well said Israeli.

These people are the real fascists - some of them said they want an end to all religions - and then they complain when someone dares to speak out against them .

They cannot understand practicalities or realities and that is why they get 20 people on their picket.

So you only support bombings against Israel? I wonder why that is Ria.

A further point - there were no Betar members on the Manchester Counter demo -

We are a group calling for a two state solution - you want one state, no jews, we want peace.

And yes you do lie and yes you do exagerate, twist the truth and spread poison the like of which has not been seen since Goebels.

Zionism means the belief in a Jewish State, that is all it means. We want to live in a state next to a Palestinian State, you want to destroy us

The only reason to counter protesters claim to want a two state solution, is to get public support! To support the idea of the creation of a Jewish State, in itself is Anti-Jewish! Under Jewish beliefs, you CANNOT fight for the creation of Israel. Therefore the counter protesters are going against Jewish beliefs, therefore showing anti-Jewish beliefs! In reality, Israel is a Zionist state!

It is clear that Zionist do NOT want Palestine to exist, (that currently being the West Bank and Gaza!) as I have seen a artistic poster of Israel. The poster had a colourful background with the Zionist ideology of Israel (that being Israel, the West Bank and Gaza being one Zionist state) with “Israel” written underneath.

You look on Zionist websites! Betar’s in particular states that the occupied territories are NOT occupied, but “disputed”. The world knows that the West Bank and Gaza are the occupied territories talked about in the press! The reality is that Israel has occupied Palestine for the last 56 years!

Israel has murdered over 3,600, where is the Palestine’s have killed around 1,000 in their resistance to the occupation! Israeli, HOW would you resist an occupation that kicked you off of you homeland?

In response to your views on a one state idea, have you ever thought that maybe both Palestinian’s and Israeli’s could live on the same land. Clearly Zionists don’t want that!

Israel is trying ethnically cleanse the Palestine people off of their land! Also Israel is will murder anyone that tries to stop this from happening, or is reporting the truth!

Do you remember Rachael Corrie, Tom Hurndell and James Miller? All internationals MURDERED by Israel!


BOYCOTT ISRAELI GOODS, BOYCOTT MARKS AND SPENCER’S, BOYCOTT ISRAELI APARTHEID!

VICTORY TO THE INTIFADA, VICTORY TO THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE!

>The only reason to counter protesters claim to want a two state solution, is to get public support!

What purpose would that serve?

>I have seen a artistic poster of Israel.

Well, that's a definitive piece of proof, isn't it?

>You look on Zionist websites! Betar’s in particular states that the occupied territories are NOT occupied, but “disputed”.

Occupied, disputed - a semantic quibble. The fact is that there has never been a Palestinian government or a country of Palestine, so whether you choose to call it an occupation or a dispute is irrelevant - it amounts to the same thing.

>Palestinian’s and Israeli’s could live on the same land. Clearly Zionists don’t want that!

One of the above comments points out that YOUR group doesn't want that, hence the rhetoric about driving Jews into the sea or deporting Jews en masse.

>Do you remember Rachael Corrie, Tom Hurndell and James Miller? All internationals MURDERED by Israel!

It's Thomas Hurndall. If you're going to pimp someone's memory in support of your hateful views, at least make an effort to get their name right.

The pathetic postings of the Zionists should confirm the fact that the fight to build a movement on the streets of Britain in support of the Palestinian struggle for national self determination is also a fight against racism and fascism. The Zionists who come down to M&S in Manchester and London to oppose the Pickets represent a gross form of middle class bigotry, their claims that nobody on the Picket has a job, that women who support the Picket are 'prostitutes', their attacks on people with disabilities on the Picket and their anti-semitic targeting of jewish supporters of the Picket confirms their fascistic political outlook.
Support the regular weekly Pickets of M&S in London and Manchester.

We do want two states, you make it clear you want one.

It is an ultra religious factional view that we should not want our homeland and should live suffering in other countries at the mercy of vicious anti semites like you. Most Jews, 99% believe in Israel. Don't preach my religion to me, I know it better than you.

No attack on any disabled person ever took place, if you need to lie to make a point, it is not worth making.

There were no Betar people on our counter demo.

With regards what I would do if my land was occupied, well I would not blow up children and babies. You, like Arafat do not want a future for the Palestinians, you want to kill Jews.

Golda Meir once said "there will be peace when the Arabs love their children half as much as they hate the Jews"

Think about it you dirty racist.

I amazed how these Zionist protestors, whose sole aim is to remove a legal, democratic, peaceful demonstration "off the streets of Manchester", can spin events and ignore the facts with their supposedly reasonable internet personas.

They stand there every six weeks (when they can drive-up re-inforcements from London)and hurl vile abuse, taunts and intimidation at people just handing-out leaflets to the public. They bait people on the picket or supporters to respond in order to either take them out of context or to involve the police. Their aim is to produce a state of chaos preferably one where the police remove both sides. Incitement and intimidation. So far they have failed.

They try to deny the disgusting sexist and personal comments they shout at us and which we all can hear. Even the police agreed about the awful attack on someone's disability (though they didn't do anything - picking on the victim for justifiably reacting). The homophobic abuse against someone they though was gay and the regular threats against Jewish picketers and their families (including singing a Hebrew song for the dead!) was beyond contempt.

I don't know how you can deny these things when everyone heard them over three hours and they were not isolated individuals but whole groups of you with no condemnation from the rest - are these the facts that Angry agrees with? I think these show exactly where you are all coming from politically and no liberal or progressive person would be willing to stand with people who shout such things.

For all your denials there are supporters of Likud on your side - and one of their members did organise the original attack. Personally, I don't know what organisations those posting here are from but I have seen a number of counter-protestors proudly wearing Betar stickers and those people are still around and I suspect those coming up from London are send by Betar from the London picket.

The repeated lie that "anti-M&S campaign collaborates with known fascists including BNP members" is again trotted out without any evidence or naming names. Whereas I have claimed before that according to a local anti-fascist that he recognised two fascist stood with the Zionist at the first big counter-demo. I don't know any more.

As for the question of one state, two states, (three states, more). We have people with a range of views as it is not a question of the number of states but the rights of the Palestinians (who are equally split on the issue) we support and the opposition to any racist, land and water grabbing, colonialist, settler, exploitative state.

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.
"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.
"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.
"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.
"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.
This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.
"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.
"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!
"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.
Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."
From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76.
Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."



So Chris Edwards, John, Richard Davenport, David Eaton and Michael Schnider - you think you know better than MLK? I think not.

Mr Schneider cannot be communist and Jewish - the two do not mix - communism rejects religion

John, you have repeatedly said there should be no Jewish state, in which case we can only be tolerated if weak and dependant on mercy - so if that is what you want then you are clearly a racist - I heard what a friend told me; you said that all Israeli taxpayers deserve to die - that is sick!

No Betar members - sorry - actually no Londoners as far as I know - thereason we get big numbers is that more people support our cause than your twisted and perverted.

Chris Edwards; you say that we are the real terrorsists, okay also Arafat has complained that only the Palestinian side is ever required to denounce terrorism. Perhaps he has a point, so, to set the record straight, I do hereby denounce in the name of the Jewish people:

Denunciation of Zionist Terrorism
1. All Jewish suicide bombers who have ever acted against Arabs.

2. All Arab buses blown up by Jews.

3. All Arab pizza parlors, malls, discotheques and restaurants destroyed by Jewish terrorists.

4. All airplanes hijacked by Jews since 1903.

5. All Ramadan feasts targeted by Jewish bombs.

6. All Arabs lynched in Israeli cities; all Arab Olympic athletes murdered by Jews; all Arab embassies bombed by Jews.

7. All mosques, cemeteries and religious schools fire bombed or desecrated by Jews in North Africa, France, Belgium, Germany, England or any other country.

8. The destruction of American military, governmental and civilian institutions in Kenya, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Yemen - along with the murder of U.S. Marines and diplomatic personnel.

9. All Jewish school books which claim that Arabs poison wells, use Christian blood to bake pita, control world finance, and murdered Jesus; or that Arab elders meet secretly to plot a world takeover.

10. And I am particularly ashamed at the way my fellow Jews attacked the World Trade Center, Pentagon and civilian aircraft on September 11th, and danced in the streets to celebrate the act.


You may wish to consider the following copy of an article in the Guardian - think about it!

Anti-Zionism is anti-semitism

Behind much criticism of Israel is a thinly veiled hatred of Jews

Emanuele Ottolenghi
Saturday November 29, 2003
The Guardian

Is there a link between the way Israel's case is presented and anti-semitism? Israel's advocates protest that behind criticisms of Israel there sometimes lurks a more sinister agenda, dangerously bordering on anti-semitism. Critics vehemently disagree. In their view, public attacks on Israel are neither misplaced nor the source of anti-Jewish sentiment: Israel's behaviour is reprehensible and so are those Jews who defend it.
Jewish defenders of Israel are then depicted by their critics as seeking an excuse to justify Israel, projecting Jewish paranoia and displaying a "typical" Jewish trait of "sticking together", even in defending the morally indefensible. Israel's advocates deserve the hostility they get, the argument goes; it is they who should engage in soul-searching.
There is no doubt that recent anti-semitism is linked to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. And it is equally without doubt that Israeli policies sometimes deserve criticism. There is nothing wrong, or even remotely anti-semitic, in disapproving of Israeli policies. Nevertheless, this debate - with its insistence that there is a distinction between anti-semitism and anti-Zionism - misses the crucial point of contention. Israel's advocates do not want to gag critics by brandishing the bogeyman of anti-semitism: rather, they are concerned about the form the criticism takes.
If Israel's critics are truly opposed to anti-semitism, they should not repeat traditional anti-semitic themes under the anti-Israel banner. When such themes - the Jewish conspiracy to rule the world, linking Jews with money and media, the hooked-nose stingy Jew, the blood libel, disparaging use of Jewish symbols, or traditional Christian anti-Jewish imagery - are used to describe Israel's actions, concern should be voiced. Labour MP Tam Dalyell decried the influence of "a Jewish cabal" on British foreign policy-making; an Italian cartoonist last year depicted the Israeli siege of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem as an attempt to kill Jesus "again". Is it necessary to evoke the Jewish conspiracy or depict Israelis as Christ-killers to denounce Israeli policies?
The fact that accusations of anti-semitism are dismissed as paranoia, even when anti-semitic imagery is at work, is a subterfuge. Israel deserves to be judged by the same standards adopted for others, not by the standards of utopia. Singling out Israel for an impossibly high standard not applied to any other country begs the question: why such different treatment?
Despite piqued disclaimers, some of Israel's critics use anti-semitic stereotypes. In fact, their disclaimers frequently offer a mask of respectability to otherwise socially unacceptable anti-semitism. Many equate Israel to Nazism, claiming that "yesterday's victims are today's perpetrators": last year, Louis de Bernières wrote in the Independent that "Israel has been adopting tactics which are reminiscent of the Nazis". This equation between victims and murderers denies the Holocaust. Worse still, it provides its retroactive justification: if Jews turned out to be so evil, perhaps they deserved what they got. Others speak of Zionist conspiracies to dominate the media, manipulate American foreign policy, rule the world and oppress the Arabs. By describing Israel as the root of all evil, they provide the linguistic mandate and the moral justification to destroy it. And by using anti-semitic instruments to achieve this goal, they give away their true anti-semitic face.
There is of course the open question of whether this applies to anti-Zionism. It is one thing to object to the consequences of Zionism, to suggest that the historical cost of its realisation was too high, or to claim that Jews are better off as a scattered, stateless minority. This is a serious argument, based on interests, moral claims, and an interpretation of history. But this is not anti-Zionism. To oppose Zionism in its essence and to refuse to accept its political offspring, Israel, as a legitimate entity, entails more. Zionism comprises a belief that Jews are a nation, and as such are entitled to self-determination as all other nations are.
It could be suggested that nationalism is a pernicious force. In which case one should oppose Palestinian nationalism as well. It could even be argued that though both claims are true and noble, it would have been better to pursue Jewish national rights elsewhere. But negating Zionism, by claiming that Zionism equals racism, goes further and denies the Jews the right to identify, understand and imagine themselves - and consequently behave as - a nation. Anti-Zionists deny Jews a right that they all too readily bestow on others, first of all Palestinians.
Were you outraged when Golda Meir claimed there were no Palestinians? You should be equally outraged at the insinuation that Jews are not a nation. Those who denounce Zionism sometimes explain Israel's policies as a product of its Jewish essence. In their view, not only should Israel act differently, it should cease being a Jewish state. Anti-Zionists are prepared to treat Jews equally and fight anti-semitic prejudice only if Jews give up their distinctiveness as a nation: Jews as a nation deserve no sympathy and no rights, Jews as individuals are worthy of both. Supporters of this view love Jews, but not when Jews assert their national rights. Jews condemning Israel and rejecting Zionism earn their praise. Denouncing Israel becomes a passport to full integration. Noam Chomsky and his imitators are the new heroes, their Jewish pride and identity expressed solely through their shame for Israel's existence. Zionist Jews earn no respect, sympathy or protection. It is their expression of Jewish identity through identification with Israel that is under attack.
The argument that it is Israel's behaviour, and Jewish support for it, that invite prejudice sounds hollow at best and sinister at worst. That argument means that sympathy for Jews is conditional on the political views they espouse. This is hardly an expression of tolerance. It singles Jews out. It is anti-semitism.
Zionism reversed Jewish historical passivity to persecution and asserted the Jewish right to self-determination and independent survival. This is why anti-Zionists see it as a perversion of Jewish humanism. Zionism entails the difficulty of dealing with sometimes impossible moral dilemmas, which traditional Jewish passivity in the wake of historical persecution had never faced. By negating Zionism, the anti-semite is arguing that the Jew must always be the victim, for victims do no wrong and deserve our sympathy and support.
Israel errs like all other nations: it is normal. What anti-Zionists find so obscene is that Israel is neither martyr nor saint. Their outrage refuses legitimacy to a people's national liberation movement. Israel's stubborn refusal to comply with the invitation to commit national suicide and thereby regain a supposedly lost moral ground draws condemnation. Jews now have the right to self-determination, and that is what the anti-semite dislikes so much.
• Emanuele Ottolenghi is the Leone Ginzburg Fellow in Israel Studies at the Oxford Centre for Hebrew and Jewish Studies and the Middle East Centre at St Antony's College, Oxford



Anyway - too many Jews have suffered at the hands of vicious racist filth like you lot - that is why we stand up to you

Regarding your Denunciation of Zionist Terrorism

>10. And I am particularly ashamed at the way my fellow Jews attacked the World Trade Center, Pentagon and civilian aircraft on September 11th, and danced in the streets to celebrate the act.

I'm just wondering if you are aware of reports of 5 Israeli celebrating, in New York City, when the plane struck the twin towers???? Also i'm wondering if you have heard of theories regarding Israel being link to the 9/11 attacks! I personal DO NOT agree the Israeli was involved with the 9/11 attacks, but do feel that America was!

Regarding the picket. People have the right to express their views! People have the right to disagree with how Israel treats the Palestinians. To disgree with what Israel is doing is NOT RACIST! People would demostrate if the situation was the other way round (Israel was occupied by Palestine).

The conspiracy theories that Jews were involved in the attack on the twin towers have no basis save as to say this; they originate from the same source who believe:

1. Jews sacrifice children at the passover feast
2. Jews control the entire media
3. Jews were responsible for the Holocaust in order to get a State
4. Jews killed Jesus


Actually at the demo in Manchester, a poster was shown of Palestinian children and babies dressed as suicide bombers. The other side said this was a joke; we say it is child abuse. One of the anti-Jewish group said that it was 'probably Jewish agents who dressed up the children' - well yes, I can really see a Mossad squad breaking into nurseries dressed up as Clowns and dressing the children in bomb belts - another anti Jewish conspiracy.

Please understand that there are no Elders and there are no Protocols; so please do not try and start the conspiracy theories against Jews; such theories have always been the stomping ground of the most virulent anti-semites; Hitler, Ford, Arafat (to name a few.)

These conspiracy theories have caused millions of Jewish deaths - why lower yourself by giving them any weight? Either you are gullible or you are one of them!

Israel holds and annual silence and rememberence for those who died in the twin tower attacks.

You refer to five who were dancing - I cannot believe that was true (perhaps you can direct me to your source) - I can point you to the news reports which followed that tragedy where Palestinians amongst other Arab demonstrotors were dancing in the street in mobs of thousands; but I am sure that you saw this too.

You make it clear that you do not agree with the reasoning put by the Oxford Don or Martlin Luther King Jr. Perhaps you can explain, with full particularilty, what it was in their writing (as contained in my former article) that you disagree with?

Neutral, I do not think you realise that what yu say is anti-semitic, but please read the MLK and Emmanual Ottongabe articles again and you will see why you have in reality crossed the line; turn back; the real racists are the ones that are manning these anti-Jewish pickets

With regards the right to demonstrate; well that is what we are doing to; against a group who wants total destruction of the Jewish State - they do not ascribe to two state solution with a Viable Palestian state to live alongside Israel - they want destruction of us.

When you next see these demonstrators, ask how many states they want - either you will not get a straight answer or they will say 1.

Quite what they wish to do with the 5 million Jews who are there is unclear - maybe back to Poland, leave us to the mobs or push us into the sea (as Haj Amin Al Husseini said - and he marched with Hitler).

So we demonstrate against them and will stand up to them - we have a right to do this too and we will not allow them to terrify the Jewish community any more.

Neutral, I do not think you realise that what yu say is anti-semitic, but please read the MLK and Emmanual Ottongabe articles again and you will see why you have in reality crossed the line; turn back; the real racists are the ones that are manning these anti-Jewish pickets

You argue that without a Jewish state Jewish people can only be tolerated if weak and dependant on mercy which you describe as racist. This is exactly the basis on which many Jews rejected Zionism - that it presume that Jews cannot live in Gentile societies. That they must only live is a separate Jewish state. I think that Jewish people should be free not in one country in the world but be free from anti-semitism in all counties.

I am not actually sure I even said I supported a one state solution - I said I supported the Palestinian people, and at present they are divided on the issue, as well as saying that I was opposed to "any racist, land and water grabbing, colonialist, settler, exploitative state."

Your friend who heard me say that "all Israeli taxpayers deserve to die" is wrong. I've neither ever said such a thing nor thought such a thing.

I notice that you deny that non-religious Jews are really Jewish. Well that doesn't accord with the definition Israel uses when it allows people to settle there. Becuase my Grandmother's Great Granmother's was Jewish I have more rights to go and settle in Israel with preferential treatment than Palestinians who have lived their all their lives. That is racism and colonialism.

Personally, I have not equated Israel with Nazism; I have not refered to Israeli or Zionist conspiracies to dominate the media, USA or the world; I do not think Israel is the root of evil; I don't believe in Elders and I don't believe in Protocols; I don't believe Israel was responsible for the bombing in the USA; on the point of nationhood, I think there are great problems with the idea that all Jews (religious and non-religious) constitue a single nation when put into practice, for the following reason:

One slogan the Zionists do shout on their protest (and you cannot deny it) is when we speak of the Palestinians the quote Golda Meir "They don't exist" and when we speak of Palestine they shout "It doesn't exist" (neither sound much like calls for a two-state solution to me). The problem with a Jewish nation is not because they happen to be Jewish but that it is built on the myth that it is 'A Land Without People For a People Without Land'.

I also do not object to you holding a counter demonstration in support of Israel. In fact that was what the police were trying to force you to do with the Public Order announcement. But you would not do so. Your stated aim is to remove us "off the streets of Manchester" according to your leaflet. You break the police cordon and try to surround us, you try to prevent our legal, peaceful, democratic right to leaflet the public. You try to surpress our speech not to argue the other side. You intimdate and insult those who do support us and you push and shove, hurl vile abuse, make racist, sexist, homophobic, disable-ist and personal comments at individuals. You complain that no-one supports us but most weeks you amount to a handful of people just bringing people in for the odd day of intimidation. You do not want the freedom to protest you just want to stop other people's.

interesting that PSC Manchester do not support the picket seeing as though another PSC branch is doing the same thing in another part of the country.

check out:  http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/london/2004/11/300502.html

Jewish and Proud

Regarding your request on a report of 5 ISRAELI'S (none of states that they are jewish or arab! remember not all israelis are jewish, approximently 10% of Israelis are in fact Arab!)

I did hear and see new reports of Arabs celebrating the 9/11 attacks, so you don't have to prove that Arab celebrated.

Anyway, how is a statement like, "i don't agree with how Israel treats the Palestinians!!!!" anti-Jewish/anti-Semitic! please, i'd want to know!

if you choose to protest the people who disagree with what Israel is doing, then do it in away that both sides can get their views out, and not making yourselves look like football hooligans!

Also, your bring religion into a situation, where infact, it isn't to do with religion.

Out of interest i have a question for you! If there was one state, a state where BOTH Israeli's and Palestines live together, in PEACE, would you support it?

If you look back in history, pre israel, pre zionism, Israel/Palestine had Jews, Arabs and christian living there! just something to think about!

John,

I did not say you cannot be non-religious and still be Jewish; I said communism rejects religion so one cannot ascribe to both.

The comments about Israeli taxpayers deserving to die were said by you the day after the Israelis died in the Egypt bomb a couple of weeks ago. I was with the man you said it to - you did exclude babies from the comment, but still felt that anyone else is a legitimate target.

Neutral - Jews lived in Israel for thousands of years - I will not go into the history that far back.

However in more recent times from the first wave of immigration (circa 1890), Jews bought land from absentee Ottoman landowners. The land was swamp or desert, however they worked and made the swamps fertile and the deserts bloom.
Every single Jewish village was attacked by Arab raiders.
I would love everyone to live in peace - in Israel I have freinds who are Jewish, Arab, Druze, Bahaiist, Bedouin and Christian - we all get on very well.

However Israel, who offered to make peace with their neighbours in the Declaration of Independence, who was attacked by a 7 nation army the day after declaring independence, who was attacked in 1956, 1967, 1973 and has faced numerous raids since then; has unfortunately been forced to realise that most of here neighbours want her destruction, to 'push us into the sea' (Haj Amin Al Husseini - Grand Mufti).

Israel has always been willing to talk peace and made peace with Egypt and Jordan. At present who can we talk peace with? Hamas? Al Aksa?

If Israel did not exist and the Jews lived in a single state, as part of a greater Palestine - the lessons from history clearly and undeniably point to a sea of Jewish blood being spilt again. To say otherwise 'Neutral' is just naive.

John - Palestine does not exist - but I wish it did. A state to live alongside Israel and to one day even to begin to trade together and work together to solve common problems such as water, would be a wonderful thing.

When I asked you at M&S whether or not Israel had a right to exist you said no. I wish that Jews could live anywhere without risk of anti-semitism. However pogroms, inquisitions and the holocaust have weakened my belief that this will ever happen; sight of the racsist protests held by your group compound this. So we need a State. Without one we must live dispersed and hope that we will be tolerated. Is it right that we must live like that?

Israel will agree to a Palestinian State, it is committed to this. Barak offered so much, yet Arafat rejected it - what does that tell you.

If you want justice for the Palestinians - then do not look to Israel who will make peace as soon as the bombings and rocket attacks stop. Rather look to the corrupt Palestinian leadership. Stop being so short sighted.


Quite simply you want the destruction of the one place where we have not been hated by the masses - that is why we detest you. tell us it is not anti-Jewish until you are blue in the face - we know it is.


You have alienated the vast majority of the Jewish community; even a recent council meeting saw you slammed as racist (a left wing council I may add).

You have singularly failed in all of your protests to condemn a single attack on Israelis - too many children, babies, men, women and elderly people have had their lives cut short for us to not feel so deep a connection with our people, that we can no longer agree to seperate the 'Israelis' from the 'Jews' - there is no difference and we will continue to stand with them.

regarding the Palestine Solidarity Campaign and the pickets in Brighton, it is official PSC policy- we have been told on many occasions by its leaders- to not support the M+S pickets. When we push for reasons the usual response we get is that the PSC does not support boycotts of stores but only of the Israeli goods inside and, bizzarely, they have said that to boycott M+S is anti-semitic! PSC leader Linda Clair is actually on record as saying that it is fine to shop in M+S as long as you don't buy Israeli goods. The picket in Brighton is obviously unknown to the PSC leadership who would almost certainly oppose it.

Dear Jewish and proud (and others),

Taking you at your word, you seem like a fair enough kind of person. You believe in the two-state solution, you believe that Israel wants this too (more on this in a moment), you have Palestinian Arab friends, you genuinely want peace and a viable Palestinian state. (I disagree with many of your historical observations, but that's for another time maybe.)

Now, I sincerely believe you (I have no choice). But if you really believe all you profess to believe, why do you spend your Saturdays (or some of them, as would seem apparent) in the company of right-wing extremists (www.betar.co.uk/ideology.php) attempting to disrupt the Revolutionary Communist Group's somewhat misguided anti-M&S demos?

(To make one thing clear before I continue, I respect the RCG's right to demonstrate, but
find their target ill-advised, less than relevant, and easy fodder for antisemitism-seekers)

With your evidently liberal views of the predicament faced by Israel and its Palestinian neighbours, would you not be better off spending your time lobbying the Israeli government to take up more concrete steps towards finding more peaceful solutions than those it is prosecuting at present? If you truly have Arab friends, why do you not spend your valuable time trying to acquire some justice for the Arabs living under Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza (and justice for Gaza should be something less tawdry and nihilistic than Sharon's "bomb the shit out of the bastards and leave them to rot" tactic)? Would this not be more fruitful than engaging in obscurantist verbal fisticuffs on a Saturday afternoon in drizzly Manchester?

Your belief that Israel truly seeks peace is - if genuine - a little naive. Most Israelis truly want peace - of that there is little doubt (opinion polls don't lie that much). Ariel Sharon may also want peace, but what kind of peace does he envisage? Given that Sharon vetoed peace with Egypt in '79, and rejected peace with Hussein's Jordan for good measure (and all Jordan got was a pat on the back from Uncle Sam), his track record as a man of peace is hardly dazzling. His peace plan - if he were ever to announces one, instead of merely rejecting other people's - will surely be a severly diluted version of Barak's already quite watery offering at Camp David in 2000. If Sharon really wanted peace, why do yuu think he has never given the Palestinians the slightest glimpse of an olive branch? He has never, ever, formulated any kind of a peace initiative.

And, more generally speaking, if Israel believed in peace, it would do two things in the interim: 1) draw up official state borders (it is a member of a very exclusive club of states with no fixed boundaries) and 2) start rolling back the colonisation of the occupied territories - instead of rolling it incessantly forward. Sharon has done nothing for peace - absolutely zilch. As a peace-loving and proud Jew, surely this should be of more concern to you than a small-scale and pretty inconspicuous demo in Manchester. (Great way to spend shabbat - not...)

And re barak: For a truly devastating illustration of just how insulting Barak's offer to Arafat at Camp Davis was, see www.gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf
Barak - faced with the historic Palestinian compromose of accepting just 22% of Palestine (under half what the Arabs were accorded by UN Resolution 101 in 1947) - offered them a lot less even than that. And consider why Arafat refused this: Barak gave him no opportunity to discuss the offer. It was yes or no, now or never. Once signed, this treaty would have been binding, with the Palestinians condemned for ever to a rump state existence with little chance of proper development or prosperity (and significant chances of re-invasion and occupation).

The truth is, the Palestinians have nothing left to believe in. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and all the other murderous religious madmen who claim to speak for the Palestinians, are merely the result of a crippling malaise born of desperation. They have filled the void left by the absence of any prospect of a better and more livable future. This future is denied to them by Sharon and his settler vanguard (not to mention, the curent incumbent of the White House). When you hear suicide bombers profess that death is preferrable to the life they eke out under occupation, you know just how bleak a situation this is.

Frankly, ther are many better ways of helping the Palestinian cause than organising counter-productive pickets of Jewish-owned department stores. And there are far better ways of re-igniting the flame of hope than shouting at those you don't agree with through a police cordon.

Okay, we will agree to disagree on the offers made by Barak - and please do not forget that it was not Israel who refused the 1947 Partition.

Sharon it seems is intent on stopping the terror before agreeing to a seperate state; I can understand why, but I do not think it is possible - I think a Palestinian state should be formed ASAP.

The demonstrators in London may be associated with Betar; not in Manchester though. I know the majority of them and there is only one who belongs to a right wing party; that being Likud.

The rest of us a Jewish people who are sick of our families and friends being demonised as killers when we know that to be a lie. Agree or not (and we can moralise on it for hours) the M&S picketers are seen by the Jewish community to be a bunch of vicious Jew haters and that is why they are being opposed.

If any members of that picket genuinely want a two state soloution, then we would be delighted to draft a letter with them calling for the same. I have contacts in the Israeli Embassy and we could pass it to them. However, as long as they wish to see destruction of the Jewish homeland and want to demonise our family and friends and fellow Jews who live there; then it is right that they be opposed.

You seem quite bright (although you will excuse me if I suggest you are a little mis-guided; difference of opinion I suppose),so look past the veil put up by the Revolutionary Communist Group and see them for what they are - they do not want peace; they want to see the blood of Jews running through the streets.

If you believe in two states, then you accept that there should be a Palestinian and a Jewish State. That would make you a Zionist; belief in a Jewish state - that is all it means - most of us do not want a 'Greater Israel' we just want a scrap of land to live in peacefully - why cannot the RCG accept that (as if I do not know?)

J&P,

Having studied the history and politics of both the Middle East and the Jewish diaspora in considerable depth (and having reached what I believe are fairly balanced conclusions about these) I can tell you I'm no zionist. However, the reality of a predominantly Jewish state in approximately 77% of former mandate Palestine is now a pretty incontrovertible reality. Israel may have an abhorrently poor human rights record (most especially for the democracy it so proudly labels itself as being), and has (though you may choose to disagree) been engaged in a ruthless and illegal expanionist thrust ever since its inception, but its right to exist, and to retain the territorial spoils of the 1948 war, is something no reasonable person now contests. That's not zionism, that's acceptance of a fait accompli.

That aside, I'm not yet convinced of your judgement of the RCG. Without being too simplistic, a person or group's acceptance or rejection of the two-state solution, and of Israel's right to remain in existence (no matter how imperfect), is surely the litmus test of that person or group's legitimacy. I suppose only the RCG themselves can tell us where they stand on this issue.

We must again agree to disagree re the human rights record. I would argue that it certainly beats Syria, Lebanon, Iran (75 % prisoners political), Saudi Arabia (public beheadings, Russia (need I tell you) , China (over 500 executions last year and presumption of guilt in criminal trials), Thailand (dont have a spliff there), USA (executes minors), Nigeria (stoned to death for adultery), Rwanda, DRC, Angola (I once met a guy who had been tortured in a room pained with blood from Angola), let us not forget the Sudan, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan and dozens of other countires.

Yet you describe Israel as having an appalling human rights record - against which countries are you comparing her?

There is no death penalty in Israel, a separate court system - who demonstrated their independance by ruling against the fence route, full voting and civil rights for all Israeli citizens.

Agreed policy in the terroritories can draw critisism - though dealing with terrorists who hide behind children is difficult - yet 3000 have died in this intifada, most were terrorists (and sadly civilians too) - 1.2 MILLION have died under Chinese occupation in Tibet - the vast majority were civilians

So is Israel's HR record really that bad? Bad enough to draw such critisism (or is there another reason?)

The RCG make their views clear - no Jewish homeland, we must live divided and dependant on mercy with nowhere to take us in when the next pogroms come in whatever intollerant nation we are in at the time. No Israel to airlift us out as they did with the Moroccan and Ethiopia - we must just suffer as we did for centuries before Israel existed.

That is what they stand for - can you explain why I should not deem them or anyone else who denys Israel's right to exist to be vicious anti-semites?

Erm what can i say? Having read the entirity of this stream i find myself a bit drained and bewildered. What can i offer to this constructive debate? Perhaps i should point out that at the point where a bullet enters someones head or a man stands up on a bus and presses the button attached to his bomb, the victims die. Why the hell is one set of people labelled terrorists and not the other. It is just as terryfying seeing a helicopter gunship line up on your street and fire a couple of rockets at you as it is to see the man on the bus getting ready to blow you up. How do i know? Because i've thought about it for more than a milisecond. The point at which you die is no different if its a spotty young conscript pulling the trigger or a brainwashed (don't even think about pulling me up on calling suicide bombers brainwashed) suicide bomber.

The arguments you are all throwing at each other on here are, well some of them, well argued and thought out. You understand your own positions very well. Now try thinking about the replies that you offer each other and make an attempt to stop loathing and detesting one another. People who are consistently throwing the vitriol you lot are at each other are not interested in any solution other than their own.

Think about it. A lot of people are dying because morons are not listening to each other.

Henry Morris
(I also use my own name... cowards)

Perhaps Jewish and Proud is my nom de guerre

Not really - VTI members take our photos and try to find out who we are - we have no doubt as to why.

Just because myself and MYOB can put our arguments well, does not mean we must agree - I hold my views and put them forward as I do, because I have confidence in their strength. Whilst it is possible to accept the views of others; as you will see I do with MYOB on points regarding a two state solution, I hold a totally polarised view when he described Israel as performing abhorrent acts, for the reasons I outlined above.

You never made the debating team did you Mr Morris.

Cowardice is failing to stand by what you believe in.

I have tried to offer my honest answer to the attacks made by Jewish and Proud (did you really mean nom de guerre rather than nom de plume!) and MYOB and state what my position is and what I know of the views of others on the picket. I've not tried to be inflamatory nor to raise the temporature of the debate. As I equally do on the picket.

The intention of the Boycott M&S picket is to offer solidarity to the Palestinian people (who do exist) on a regular basis. We have a stall of literature, petitions and supporters and we seek support from the public where they wish to give it. Most of us generally avoid heated discussion with people who are strongly opposed to us as it is not are intention to cause a breach of the peace. We certainly avoid insulting them for their religion, gender, sexuality, disability or appearence. We do not physically prevent them from talking to the public or distributing their literature.

I find the accusation that I am anti-semitic highly offensive and untrue - but I just have to live with that. I do object to having my legal, democratic, peaceful right to demonstrate on the streets of Manchester prevented by thugish behaviour and intimidation.

Regards,

WELL IVE BEEN AT THIS PICKET EVERY SATURDAY FOR THE LAST 5-6 MTHS TAKING THE VIEWS OF EACH SIDE ON BOARD AND ENGAGING IN CONVERSATION ABOUT ALL TOPICS ,EVEN STUFF THAT HAST NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS CONFLICT.

IM NOT ON ANY PARTICULAR SIDE IN THIS ONE OTHER THAN THE SIDE OF JUSTICE FOR ALL AND THE IDEA OF A 2 STATE SOLUTION,IM AGAINST ALL FORMS OF FACSISM AND TERROISM WHETHER BE IT HAMAS OR A ISRAELI TANK BULLDOZING A PALASTINIAN HOME THEN BUILDING SETTLEMENTS ON THEM.

WHAT I FIND REALLY HARD TO UNDERSTAND IS WHEN THE ANTI M+S PICKET START CALLING ALL WHO QUESTION THEM A RACIST A FASCIST AND A MEMBER OF THE BNP....

THERE IS A MUSLIM WOMAN WHO DEMOS AT THE PICKET THAT APPARENTLY WORKS FOR THE COMMISION OF "RACIAL EQUALITY"...WELL SHE SHOULD LOSE HER JOB STRAIGHT AWAY AS SHE DOESNT SEEM TO KNOW WHAT A RACIST/FASCIST EVEN IS.

ALSO THE ANIT M+S PICKET "ARE SUPPORTERS OF TERRORISTS SUCH AS HAMAS" AS IVE QUESTIONED THE LIKES OF RICHARD DAVENPORT QUITE RECENTLY.

ITS ALL VERY WELL SUPPORTING THE INNOCENT PEOPLE OF PALASTINE,BUT THEY CANT EXPECTED TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY WHEN THEY NEVER MENTION THE 1000 ISRAELIS THAT HAVE DIED SINCE THE GOOD OLD INTIFADA...ALL THEY EVER MENTION IS WHAT HAS HAPPENED ON THE ARAB SIDE BUT THEN FAIL TO MENTION THE KIDDIE SUICIDE BOMBERS AND ROCKET ATTACKS WHICH ARE JUST AS DEVASTAING TO LIFES AND BUSINESSES.
THE REASON THE LIKES OF ME ARE AT THE COUNTER DEMO ARE IS BECAUSE I PERSONALLY DONT WANT ANYONE BEING CORRUPTED INTO THINKING THAT ISRAEL HAS CAUSED THIS WHOLE SORRY MESS WHEN IN FACT BOTH SIDES ARE AS BAD AS EACH OTHER,THE ONLY ONES WHO DO SUFFER ARE THE INNOCENT ISRAELI JEWS AND THE INNOCENT ISRAELI ARABS...ALL BECAUSE OF THE WARRING GOVERNMENTS.

ON THE POINT ABOUT ZIONISM/FACISM..A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE POSTED ON HERE DONT EVEN SEEM TO KNOW WHAT ZIONISM OR FACISM REALLY IS..THEY BOTH MEAN DIFFERENT THINGS.

FACISM REPRESENTS SOMEONE LIKE NICK GRIFFIN WHO DESPISES ALL OTHER RACES/COLOURS/RELGIONS OTHER THAN HIS OWN IDIOTIC VIEWS.

A ZIONIST IS SOMEONE WHO JUST BELIEVES IN THE JEWISH STATE OF ISRAEL..

A ZIONIST IS NOT A RACIST OR A TERRORIST OR ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT I JUST SAID.

THOSE ARE THE FACTS,ANYONE WHO THINKS OTHERWISE WANTS TO TAKE UP HISTORY LESSONS AND BUY A DICTIONARY AS WELL WHILE THEY ARE AT IT.

I WELCOME OPEN AND PEACEFULL DEMOS BUT THE ANTI M+S PICKET ARE SOMETHING ELSE...AS LONG AS THEY CONTINUE TO INTIMIDATE IL BE AROUND EVERY SINGLE SATURDAY FOR ASLONG AS I LIVE.

Well said Adam,

The CRE woman likes to re-write history - the fact that she works for the CRE is quite scary.

John you have regularly been heard raising your voice to anyone who disagrees with you. It was after you sent an 80 year old Jewish Polish woman home in tears that I for one, decided the time had come to stand up to you.

Even if you have twisted your own logic to the point that you do not believe that you are anti-semitic, what effect do you think the images and literature you use will have on the average 'man on the street' who cannot see your supposed difference?

A recent Council proposal was ammeded as below. The reason for the ammendment was that the behaviour of the VTI and you in particular was read out at the meeting.

Your behaviour was described as clearly giving cause for concern that there are serious anti semitic undertones in your protests and that you had caused alarm and distress to anyone who disagreed with you.

So the Council, 150 protestors and 99% of the Jewish community think that you are a racist - so is that totally unfounded? is there not a chance that we are right? I think we are right - the truth hurts doesn't it.

Council notes:
The right to peaceful protest is a fundamental right in a free and democratic society. As a radical and progressive city, Manchester takes pride in that one of its great strengths is that it has always welcomed diverse protests, demonstrations and perspectives on the world at large.
Manchester's Labour Council strives to uphold that tradition and reputation with many Labour members having been involved in street protests in the city, perhaps most notably in recent times the anti-Iraq war vigils organized by Manchester Central Labour Party.
Council confirms:
1. That citizens should be free to protest in the City of Manchester provided that their protests are peaceful, and are not racist, offensive, or derogatory to other communities and do not cause an unreasonable level of obstruction of the streets.
2. That it is totally opposed to providing platforms for racists and fascists, including anti-semitism and the fostering of islamophobia.
3. The action taken by the Leader of the Council in authorizing the Chief Executive drawing up a protocol for officers to ensure a fair, proportionate and consistent approach to managing protesters, which balances the Council's support for the right to public protest with the Council's support for other citizens to pursue their lives without obstruction or otherwise aggressive behaviour.
Council totally rejects the Liberal Democrats support for rights without responsibility or respect for others.



Below is the original motion before the amendment was put

You will note it had no reference to what would not be allowed and only referred to obstruction, not offensiveness.




11. Manchester Protesters

To consider the following Motion which was deferred by the Council on 31st March 2004 until such time as the issues could be debated following the conclusion of legal action –

Council notes:
The right to peaceful protest is a fundamental human right in a free and democratic society enshrines in English Law and by the Human Rights Act, 1998.
That in a time when interest in conventional party politics is declining, the involvement of citizens in protest groups addressing specific issues represents an increasing part of the democratic process. That a number of groups regularly protest in Manchester City Centre over issues of concern to them, displaying placards advertising their cause and collecting signatures on a petition.
That Council officers have taken action against peaceful protesters which have the effect of restricting their right to protest by (i) threatening them with prosecution for unspecified offences against local bye-laws (ii) demanding they remove placards which Council officers deemed to be offensive (iii) demanding that they remove trestle tables from the street even when they are positioned so that no-one is in fact obstructed or inconvenienced by them, and (iv) prosecuting protesters for placing a trestle table on the street as part of the protest.
Council believes that:
1. Citizens should be free to protest in the City of Manchester provided that their protests are peaceful and do not cause an unreasonable level of obstruction of the streets;
2. That officers should work with protesters to ensure that they can make their point without causing excessive disruption, and
3. That any action taken by officers should be proportionate to the problems being caused by the protesters and take proper account of citizens' fundamental human right to protest.
And, Council instructs:
The Chief Executive to draw up a protocol for officers, in discussion with elected members, the police, members of protest groups in Manchester and other interested parties to ensure a fair, proportionate and consistent approach to managing protesters in the city which takes full account of the Council's support for the right to public protest.
Signed: Councillors Peter Rothery (proposer) Lynne Williams, Simon Ashley, Marc Ramsbottom, John Cameron, Vanessa Hall and David Sandiford

Adam, I don't think everyone who opposes us is a fascist/racist. But Betar has a long fascist past and Likud has its expansionist settlement policy, there are the ex-Israeli Defence Force thugs, those shouting the sexist, racist, homophobic, Islamophobic, anti-disabled filth, those who do not want to offer the other view democratically but use intimidation and thugery to get us "off the streets of Manchester" (in Jewish and Proud's words).

These are the people we are objecting to. We want to continue our open and peaceful protests and would be happy for them to do the same.

Jewish & Proud, as I said before I think you have the wrong person.

As to the council motions you quote at great length. I also agree with free speech and peaceful, non-racist, non-derogatory protests. Do you? Including the remarks listed above?

I am totally opposed anti-Semitic and Islamophobic remarks. Do you? Including singling out Jewish people as "traitors" and threatening their family? Including accusing all Muslims of being members of Al Qaeda?

I completely support public protest without aggressive behaviour. Do you? Including your aim to remove us "off the streets of Manchester"? Including not surrounding people, shoving them, destroying leaflets or swearing?

The police and the City Council have not found us to be in breach of any of these things. We have a court judgment up-holding our right to display placards which are all inspected by the police for racism or offensiveness.

Your protest began with violence (and arrests) and continued with intimidation and derogatory, racist and abusive comment designed to proke a reaction and the police closing our picket down. We have managed to stay calm and discipline throught. When the police read the Public Order Act because your actions "may result in serious public disorder, serious damage to property, serious disruption to the life of the community or intimidate others with a view to compelling them to do or not do an act they have a right to do." Yet you still carried on stopping us leafletting and petitioning.

JOHN IF YOU THINK NOT EVERYONE WHO SUPPORTS YOU IS A FACSIT?????

THEN HOW COME EVERY TIME I SEE ANYONE QUESTIONING YOUR GROUP,YOUR GROUP THEN LASHES OUT WITH THE WORDS "YOUR A RACIST,FACIST AND A MEMBER OF THE BNP"

I SOMETIMES GET VERY INTIMIATED BY YOUR GROUP ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU LOT START TAKING PICTURES OF ME AS IF IM A TARGET OR SOMETHING, AND THEN SOME OF YOU LOT HAVE EVEN HAD THE CHEEK TO TELL ME TO WATCH MY BACK.

NOW IF U R SO SECURE IN WHAT U BELIEVE IN...THEN WHY INTIMIDATE ANYONE WHO OPPOSES YOUR VIEWS...IM THERE COS IM A CITIZEN OF MANCHESTER WHO IS FOR SOLIDARITY WOTH INNOCENT VICTIMS OF THIS CONFLICT BUT TOTTALLY AGAINST YOUR GROUP SUPPORTING TERROR ORGANISATIONS LIKE HAMAS AND THE PLO.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS YOUR PRO PALESTINE GROUP IS MUCH MORE THAN A PROTESTING GROUP,YOU SUPPRT TERROR AND YOU ONLY WANT 1 STATE AND NOT TWO.

YOU NEVER MENTION ANY ISRAELI DEATHS(YES ALL 1000 OF THEM SINCE SEPT 200O)

THERE MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN AS MANY AS THE PALASTINIANS BUT 1000 IS 1000 TOO MANY FOR ME.

Our exact words were 'kick the racists off the streets' - I have attended at anti BNP marches and that was the same slogan we shouted at them.

As I said before you have singularly failed to condemn, as Adam states, one attack on Israelis. If you are the large guy with the grey beard, then it was you who said all Israeli taxpayers deserve to die.

You have still not quite realised that you have upset 99% of the Jewish community and fail to accept that this is irrefutable evidence that you are an anti-semite.

Your group is anti-semitic and please do not hide behind Michael Schnider to show that you are not.

As a communist, he cannot have religious beliefs (the two do not mix - you should know that) - he has chosen.

You try turn the public, who either do not realise or do not believe that there is a difference between Isralis and Jews (actually there is not, we are one people who will stand together), against the Jewish community. That is either reckless or deliberate.

You are a racist, you are an apologist for terror and we shall continue to come to Manchester to tell everyone what you really are.

It is true that being a communist and being Jewish are mutually exclusive in religious terms. As a communist of Jewish origin, I consider myself not to be Jewish on the basis that Judaism is a religion which, like Christianity and Islam, and all the poly-theist ones too come to that, I do not subscribe. However, this view is one shared by neither fascists (Hitler would have had me gassed whatever my religious beliefs - and probably twice as he wasn't keen on communists either) and Zionists (I have a 'right to return' to a state in which I have never lived and whose very existence in its current form I do not subscribe to).

Jews and Israelis are not 'the same' and you help no-one by pretending they are.

WELL ISNT IT A SHAME THAT THE M+S FELL APART ONCE AGAIN ON SATURDAY WHEN EVERY TIME I TRIED TO HAVE A DEBATE WITH THEM,IM CALLED A RETARD,FACIST,RACIST ETC ETC ETC.

WE ALL HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS ON THIS TOPIC,NO-ONE ORDINARY PERSON HAS TO STOOP TO YOUR LEVEL,SOME OF YOU ARE SO ARROGANT IT IS UNREAL.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS SIMPLE..ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH THEM IS A TARGET FOR THEIR GROUP...WHETHER THROUGH VERBAL OR PHYSICAL MEANS.

TAKE BIG TALL IRISH JOHN FOR EXAMPLE..BEING SLANDERED BY THAT GROUP WITH LABELS SUCH AS PAEDOPHILE,SEXIST AND FACIST,EVEN THE CRE WOMAN ACCUSED HIM OF
"SEXUAL HARRASMENT"(YEH RIGHT) ,,"HELLO" U DONT EVEN KNOW THE GUY AND U DONT HAVE ONE SCRAP OF EVIDENCE COS THERE ISNT ANY TO FIND.

MOST OF THE ACCUSATIONS COME FROM MRS MOUTH AT THE CRE,AND SOME DOPE-SMOKING PICKITEER WHOSE NAME I DONT KNOW...

I PERSONALLY HAVE BEEN THREATENED BY THAT ANTI M+S GROUP,BUT HEY I AINT SCARED OF NO-ONE.

ONE GOOD THING CAME OUT OF SATURDAY IS THAT YET ANOTHER NEUTRAL FROM MANCHESTER JOINED IN ON SATURDAY..THIS SHOWS EVEN MORE THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE AGAINST THAT PICKET ARE NOT JUST JEWS AND ISRAELIS..BUT ORDINARY PEOPLE WHO ARE AGAINST TERRORISM/FACISM.

TILL NEXT TIME!!!!

Cannot comment on this Saturday, but you are right - try and talk to them and they will not have it - it is a case of agree or be damned.

The silly thing is they call for the right for free speech but ultimately want to take away that right from everyone else; either by intimidation or by shouting them down. Free speech has never been a right in any communist country and the only country in the middle east where there is a right to free speech in the bill of rights is - you guessed it - Israel; whereas more people have died under communist regimes than in the two world wars combined.

I cannot believe for one second that any red blooded male would sexually harass the CRE woman - aka the rewriter of history.

Again you talk of free speech and yet the counter demonstration this week was just like a little boys game to stop us having our right to free speech.

It began by three occupying the space were we normally put our table. That failed to stop us. So then they push and shove. They follow leafleters around trying to stop them. Then they shout "who killed Margaret Hassan?" a possively sick form of opportunism which ignores the fact she was murdered in Iraq (and almost certainly not by Palestinians). Blowing whistles, playing trumpets and shouting any rubbish to drown people out.

Every attempt is made to prevent our freedom of speech and yet no attempt is made to actual offer the public a reasoned case for their position. The closest they get is to harrass and abuse those who sign or petition (which is counter productive). We have never made any objection to a Pro-M&S or Pro-Israel demonstration, and the police have tried to get them to hold one, but their only aim is disruption and chaos - with the hope that the Police will use the Public Order act to actually remove us (rather than just restrict us).

Again this Saturday we stand and continue to hear the sort of freedom of speech they are actually infavour of. It is the constant sexist remarks, the homophobic abuse, the pathetic school playground taunts about peoples appearences, the anti-Arab comments, the racism, the threats in Hebrew against a Jewish (as defined by Hitler and Israel) supporter, numerous personal threats of violence against us, and so on....

The apologists on Indymedia who stand with them can try to deny them again and again but we hear them every time - as can anone who comes down with us.

They scream "two state solution" out loud but quietly refer to "the project not being complete" (i.e. the expansion of Israel), they joyfully play sound-tracks of gun-shots from the Israeli army invading Egypt during the Six Day War, one proudly boast he is off to fight as an Israeli reservists next week and wished we would go to Palestine as human shields as he could "accidentally" let his gun off - one only need remember Tom Hurndall to know what he means.

Please see the report on Indymedia of the attempt by Zionists at Warwick University to stop a debate in the Student Union on Israel and Palestine.

 http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/11/301484.html

"In an extraordinary act to limit freedom of speech on campus the Students Union at the University of Warwick has given in to pressure from the Jewish-Israeli society. It is believed that the Israeli Embassy also interfered in the effort to block the programme on the Israeli/Palestine issue. Ironically, three of the speakers they so keen to silence are Jewish, one of them is an Israeli."

Actually for several years many people tried to reason and talk to your group to tell you that what you were doing was considered anti-semitic or mis-informed or whatever various individuals may have felt.

What was clear, and I know as I approached the picket several times as an individual, was that if someone dared to oppose your views they were surrounded, shouted at and called a fascist (a word which you use with the same incorrect frequency as Neil from the Young Ones).

So people have realised that they cannot talk to you and are sickened with you and want you off the street.

I assure you, we would treat the BNP with the same disgust and disdain - there is no point in talking with them either - the difference is at least they admit that they are racist.

Actually I hear that on Saturday one of your group was telling black and asian passersby that a counter-demonstrator had earlier been referring to them by derogatory racist names. This was untrue and clearly designed to stir up racial hatred.

By the way John Walker in your quest to ban Jewish goods (oh sorry - I mean Israeli, I forgot that you have a friend with a Jewish grandmother) - you may wish to consider the effect - something you seem not to have done thus far.

The winners of The Wall Street Journal's 2004 Technology Innovation
Awards competition have been announced. Innovators world-wide were considered.
The Gold award went to Sun Microsystems Inc of California for a wireless
approach to chip design.

The Silver award went to Given Imaging Ltd of Yoqneam, Israel for
'PillCam', a tiny camera that patients swallow so that doctors can see
their digestive tract.
The Bronze award went to InSightec Image Guided Treatment Ltd. of Tirat
Carmel, Israel for 'ExAblate 2000', a nonsurgical way to destroy tumors
by focusing ultrasound waves on them.

So of course we should ban the award winning medical equpiment Israel produces.

While we are at it, I may point out that the majority of kosher food comes from Israel - by seeking to stop that, you would make it more difficult for people to keep their religious beliefs....not thought of that have you - but of course you are not racist.

And something else Israel has been doing:

Eighteen child survivors of the Beslan massacre are visiting Israel at the invitation of the city of Ashkelon:


Accompanied by a doctor and psychologist, the 18 children of Beslan plus 17 parents set sail from Odessa at the beginning of the week on the luxury ship called Yasmin, belonging to Mano Cruises. The City of Ashkelon, the Even Ezer Foundation and the Organization of Olim from the Caucuses financed the trip.


But sightseeing and relaxation is just one aspect of the visit. What the Israeli organizers hope is that the medical and psychological care that the children will undergo will have a long-lasting impact on aiding their overall recovery.

"They spent their first days at Barzilai Hospital in Ashkelon where they underwent medical checkups and psychological evaluations. We're going to provide them with art therapy as well, which we hope will help them communicate, as it's still difficult for them to verbalize about what happened. We have so much experience in dealing with terror and trauma, so we want to offer our help to the children to enable them to speed their recovery," said Weinstein-Berkovitch.

The children will also be counseled by specialists from SELAH - the Israel Crisis Management Center, which was founded in 1993 to help immigrants in crisis.


Before they left Beslan, some of the children reportedly asked "why are we going to Israel if there's terror there too?" The answer is that, precisely because of Israel's experience with terror attacks, its doctors have become experienced at treating the traumas of terrorism survivors. One of the grim realities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is that doctors on both sides have become experts at treating the physical and psychological effects of random violence.

Also, shared adversity can be a basis of mutual support and assistance. For instance, Holocaust survivors' associations in Israel and elsewhere have shared their experience with survivors of the genocide in Rwanda and, more recently, with victims from Darfur. Loss of life is always profoundly destructive, but if it can provide a foundation for survivors to recover, something constructive may nevertheless be built from it.


No wonder people arent prepared to listen to your poison anymore.

The U.K.'s biggest trade union UNISON with its 1.4 million members, have called for a boycott of all Israeli goods.

Christian groups have joined the boycott demanding an end to EU - Israel trade agreements.

Jewish groups such as B'Tselem and Gush Shalom have launched their own boycott Israeli goods campaigns.

Al-AWDA - The Palestinian Right to Return coalition
Campaign Against the Arms Trade
GMB (Holborn)
International Solidarity Movement
Matzpun
Palestine Solidarity Campaign
Red Pepper Magazine
St Jerome Publishing

Plus lots of other Palestinian groups, individuals, academics, politicians, artists, international organisations and so on.

That shows nothing new John; there a lot of anti-semites, we know this.

Listing them does not answer the point I made above.

Do you also wish to ban the advances made by leading Israeli scientists which have allowed life saving treatments to be developed. Two of which were highlighted in my mail above.

Should we tell people awaiting operations; sorry we cannot treat you the process involves Jewish (oh sorry Israeli) equipment - you will have to suffer or die instead.

You also did not mention that you are effectively trying to ban 95% of kosher food entering the UK.

Should we ban academic advances in law, science, medicine, literature, mathematics, agriculture and technology all of which have benefited from Israelis who are eminent in their fields and which have benefited mankind?

The problem with you revolutionary communists is that you think that you see things that others fail to see - that is not true. We can all see what you are trying to get at but we can also see that you do not appreciate effect and cannot think things through.

We get it - your ideas are silly and childish.

The effect of what you are trying to do would do the world no good - sorry, but you have wasted the last 4 years of your life on this.

Nobody listens to you and the Jewish community now counter your actions by making great efforts to buy Israeli products.

By the way; everytime you use your computor you will be using some Israeli technology, particularly microchips and probably software too.

Happy surfing

THANKS JEWISH AND PROUD(DONT UNDERSTAND WHY U DONT REFER TO YOUR OWN REAL NAME)

I NEVER THOUGHT THAT GROUP IS ACTUALY BOYCOTTING
"ALL" ISRAELI GOODS JUST RETAIL SUFF,U R RIGHT THERE IS A LOT OF ISRAELI GOODS THAT HAVE BEEN USED AND ARE STILL VITAL IN TODAYS MEDICAL ADVANCES AND RESEARCH FOR 2MOROWS CURES.

IM SERIOUSLY WONDERING WHAT THAT GROUP WOULD DO IF ONE OF THEM NEEDED LIFE-SAVING TREATMENT AND IT TURNED OUT SOMETHING BEING USED WAS FROM ISRAEL...WUD THEY SERIOUSLY TURN DOWN THE URGENT TREATMENT THEY WUD NEED...

IM GONNA PUT THIS POINT U HAVE USED TO THEM ON SATURDAY AND SEE WHAT THEY SAY..

"JOHN" "

THERE MAY BE A FEW GROUPS AND ACITVISTS HERE AND THERE THAT SUPPORT U,,,BUT THE VAST 90% of the population OPPOSE UR VIEWS AND SUPPORT FOR TERROR,NO RIGHT MINDED PERSON WOULD WANT TO SEE ANY INNOCENT CHILDREN BLOWN UP.

Jewish and Proud, Hello. When i called you a coward for not using your real name i was making a point about people who antagonise each other from the safety of their keyboard, but with my tongue firmly lodged in my cheek.

No i didn't make the debating team. I've never had an opportunity to join a debating team. At my school we were to busy learning Falconry and La Crosse to have any time for arguing club.

"Just because myself and MYOB can put our arguments across well does not mean we should agree". Of course it doesn't. You could listen to each other though. Or is that too tricky. After all, its only people dying that we're talking about. As if human life should stand in the way of your ego's and your fundamental human right to make a point and have the last laugh.

If cowardice is failing to stand up for what you believe in, then surely on some level you should respect a suicide bomber who gives up his life for what he (thinks he) believes in. I know i don't, but then i don't mistake obnoxious stubborn pride shouted at full volume for bravery. What people believe in and stand up for can be anything at all. When someone like you says cowardice is not standing up for your beliefs, you aren't really thinking outside your own beliefs.

And going back to the point i tried to make but couldn't because i never made it onto the debating squad(yes you have cut deep into my soul with that comment) you call John an "apologist for terror". Could you please, please tell me what the Israeli army is, if not terryfying. Call me naive, but I consider both a suicide bomber and a tank pretty terryfying.
Neither side can have a monopoly on this when both sides are committing atrocious acts.

As a nurse I'm glad Israelis are making such advances in the name of medicine. Wouldn't it be good if the Palestinians had the facilities and opportunities to make such advances too?

Lots of love,
Henry
HUMAN, BUT NOT SURE HOW PROUD

The following transcript is from a Palestinian perspective on the conflict between Israel and Palestine

“As an occupying force that on a daily basis engages in practices humiliating to Palestinians, Israel is inciting against itself. Israel is denying basic human rights to Palestinians, and Palestinian resistance is inevitable. Most Palestinians are not prejudiced against Israelis and Palestinians do realize that not all Israelis are soldiers. There are hundreds of Israelis who support Palestinians in their struggle and work on activities to stop the Israeli aggression against Palestinians. Israeli peace activists are always welcomed by Palestinians and received in their homes.

The Palestinian majority realizes that the Israeli public is polarized and does not know the reality of daily Palestinian suffering. Palestinians believe the Israeli public is deceived by Israeli propaganda. I often hear comments that Israel is not genuine about implementing peace. I also hear Palestinians talking about steadfastness and struggle. The majority believes in a two-state solution and in a just peace for both peoples. There is a consensus, but, like in any society, it is not total. There are also Israelis on TV calling for death to Palestinians, and there were Israeli cabinet ministers calling for the assassination of Arafat, the elected president. But, it seems, for Sharon, Palestinians are not supposed to consider Israel an occupying force but a defensive one. Sharon seems to want Palestinians to stop calling his forces "occupation forces."

During the first intifada, the Israeli government closed down most schools and universities. How, then, did Palestinian children learn to throw stones? The presence of the Israeli army taught them this. At present, Palestinians suffer more than ever from the Israeli occupation, an occupation that is illegal by any standard. Recent pictures of Israeli soldiers violating dead Palestinian bodies, published in Yedioth Aharonot, are further evidence of the dehumanizing practices of an Israeli occupying force that operates from a position of unchallenged power.

The main questions now are: what does Sharon mean by incitement? Who defines what incitement is? Is incitement something that is only engaged in by the occupied? The Palestinian Authority should address these questions and refer to international law for a precise definition. Meanwhile, the international community must be balanced in monitoring incitement, but most importantly, should focus on achieving self-determination for Palestinians. There cannot be security for Israel without guaranteeing Palestinians their human rights and ending the greatest incitement of all, the Israeli occupation.”

Published 29/11/2004 (c) bitterlemons.org

“There are also Israelis on TV calling for death to Palestinians”

This part of the transcript is interesting, as I have had a conversation with a Zionist only recently at a picket. Basically they said that they would like to see an atomic bomb dropped on the Palestinians. Jewish and Proud, before you seen a message saying that you or any of your Zionist friends didn’t say that, I want to make it clear that it was NOT said on any of your attacks or “counter demostations”. It fact was not part of a conversation on the Anti-Zionist picket in Manchester.

The same Zionist did agree the wall (that is being used land grab) should be moved to the green line! If the wall was truly there for security, it would be built on the green line/1967 boarders, not in the west bank.

On a totally different point now! I have been to www.funnyjunk.com and they have two images, which I have shown people, who agree with me that they are in extremely poor taste. Well, when you take in to account that over 4,600 people have lost their lives, there is no way anyone in there right mind can find them funny.

To view them, please click on the links below.

 http://www.funnyjunk.com/p/baby_baby_bomber-jpg.html

 http://www.funnyjunk.com/p/peepants-jpg.html

I am asking people to complain to funnyjunk.com to get these images removed as they are totally inappropriate to have such images displayed on such a site that there to display humorous material.

To complain, email funnyjunk.com on  complaints.funnyjunk@gmail.com.

I have complained, to not much success.

Thanks to those that try. Please E-Mail with what success you have!

Victory To The Intifada

Henry - I meant no offence. I understand that you are against violence and want peace, so do I, I really do.

The image of the baby bomber is no joke - It is child abuse

Now Arafat has gone, there is a real chance for peace. Let us hope that all sides grasp it and do not let go.

Hey Jewish and Proud!

Good to see you outside the Manchester Evening News Offices on Wednesday night! Still you had to phone your racist friends, (yes, Zionism is a form of racism, thus a Zionist is a racist) to let them know we were there! Interesting how you call some of the picket, ie “the racist bitch who rewrites history.”

On Saturday you and your fellow Zionists claim we are supporting terrorists to people signing our petitions. BUT the Palestinians are not terrorists. The only terrorist groups in the Middle East are the following :-

The American Army (in Iraq)
The British Armies (again…….in Iraq)
The IDF (in Palestine/Gaza and the West Bank)

terrorism

n : the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear

Something to think about the current conflict.

The occupation of Gaza and The West Bank Started in 1967.

The First Intifada stared in 1987, 20 years AFTER the start of the occupation of Gaza and The West Bank.

The Al Asqa Intifada started in 2000 after Ariel Sharon visited the Al Asqa Mosque.

So, Adam, Israel is not as innocent as the “Counter Demonstrators” want you and others to believe. They don’t just kill Palestinians, but murder anyone who defends Palestinians and Report the truth.

Rachael Corrie (American ISM Activist who was run over by a bulldozer. The Israeli Bulldozer was going to demolish the house of a Palestinian doctor).

Tom Hurndell (Manchester photography student, who went to Gaza as a neutral, who ended put being shot in the head by an Israeli Sniper when he was helping children to safety. In Israeli reports they claimed he shot in 2 different places and was wearing an army style uniform. Armies wear ORANGE vests).

James Miller (British Cameraman who was shot in the next by an Israeli APC whilst waving a white flag and wearing a flack jacket with “TV” written on it)

To Jewish And Proud

Regarding the your view on the image, it is neglect, thus a form of a abuse! Would you say the same if it was a Israeli kid (under 10), if the Israeli’s were in the same position as the Palestinians. Taking into account the Palestinian’s are resisting (that being the Intifada) an occupation, and it is widely accepted that an occupied people are allowed to resist an occupation!

If you want to carry on this conversation, PLEASE e-mail me on my email addy below. If you do, I will reply when I get the chance!

VTI

English & Not Proud,



You are well known to be a extremist left wing group with an unhealthy obsession with Jews - you acnnot accept it when we are not downtrodden and you judge us by different standards to everyone else.

You are viewed by 99% of the Jewish community as racist. Your actions and the manner in which you twist facts are deceitful and sickening.

Perhaps you should go and live in Iran and see how they afford human rights to their citizens.

You are not naive - this I know, but your understanding of the situation in the middle east is utterly perverted. You want destruction of the Jewish state and to leave 5 million Jews at the hands of the surrounding Arab nations who have tried on 5 occassions to anihilate them. Essentially you seek ethnic cleansing of a people who had nowhere else to go.

To me, you are share that view with the Nazis. You are abhorrent and I have no further basis for dialogue with anyone who fails to recognise that somebody who blows up children on a bus is not a terrorist.

WHY IS VTI COMPLAINING ABOUT THE CONTENT DISPLAYED THE "VERY FUNNY" JUNK WEBSITE..

WHEN EVERY SINGLE SATURDAY THE PP PICKET DISPLAY LOADS OF ANIT ISRAEL CARTOON CAPTIONS SUCH AS A JEWISH ISRAELI WITH A LOAD OF "POO" ON HIS HEAD(WHATS ALL THAT ABOUT)

VTI+ CO U R SUCH BULLSHITTERS IT IS UNREAL..U MOAN ABOUT THE CONTENT OF OTHER PEOPLES WEBSITES AND MESSAGE BOARDS,YET UR PICKET IS THE MOST FACIST,RACIST AND DOWNRIGHT CORRUPT THAT IVE EVER SEEN.

A SMALL VICTORY TO THE ONES WITH BRAINS...THE PP PICKET HAS NOW BEEN MOVED TO THE MANCHESTER PEACE GARDENS OVER CHRISTMAS TO ENSURE THERE IS NO INTIMIDATION OF SHOPPERS GOING INTO M+S.

I FOR ONE WILL CONTINUE TO COUNTER DEMONSTRATE AGAINST THEM TILL THEY ARE OFF THE STREETS COMPLETLY...EVEN IF ITS ON MY OWN!!!!

TILL NEXT TIME

Police ban demonstration at Marks and Spencer in Manchester: 10 arrested

On Saturday 4 December, 10 people were arrested on the regular protest at Marks and Spencer's support for the Israeli state, outside the Market Street store, central Manchester. Earlier last week the Chief Constable of Manchester had imposed a ban on pickets of the store over the Christmas and New Year period on the grounds that there are more shoppers than usual during the festive season.

Greater Manchester Chief Constable Todd banned the VTI from outside M&S arguing that it should be held in the Peace Gardens, half a mile away, and limited its numbers to 20 and its duration to 3 hours under Section 14 of the 1986 Public Order Act. The ban is due to last until 3 January 2005. In addition, the group may not demonstrate at any time other than Saturday afternoon between 12 and 3pm. Police officers informed members that a picket of the Manchester Evening News on Wednesday also fell within the terms of the ban. This is therefore a ban on a particular organisation, rather than an event. On Saturday, as the M&S demonstrators were led away under arrest, other political demonstrations and stalls were taking place in Market Street, free from police action.

VTI sent two letters to Chief Constable Todd protesting against the ban, and his failure to consult with picketers over this draconian action (see attached). VTI has held M&S pickets throughout Christmas periods for the last four years without any trouble. VTI believes that Todd’s action is both unreasonable and politically motivated. Despite these letters being sent, Manchester police have made no attempt to discuss this question with the picketers or reach any reasonable agreement about protests over the Christmas period.

The police have imposed bail conditions on some of those arrested on Saturday, although none of them have been charged with any offence. Some of the bail conditions prevent them from entering the City Centre on Saturdays until mid-January – beyond the term of the ban on demonstrations. Some of the demonstrators are forbidden from entering the City Centre at any time.

Every Saturday for the last four years, Victory to the Intifada, supporters of Palestinian liberation, have picketed Marks and Spencer, calling for a boycott of the store for its close financial and political links with the Israeli state. Underlining these links, The Guardian recently quoted overseas workers in Gaza as saying that organic produce from greenhouses that they laboured in was destined for Marks and Spencer – a completely illegal trade. On 9 December, Stuart Rose, M&S Chief Executive, will be guest of honour at the annual dinner of the British-Israeli Chamber of Commerce alongside the Israeli ambassador and the British ambassador to Israel.

Adam,

1 It's isn't a victory i would be proud of! Lets put it this way,the council do not want protestes in the city centre., and if the police ban the picket, every other picket, stall, protest and demostation in manchester is under threat! Basically it will give more strength to the police to ban protesting in Manchester City Centre, and if you need to protest against real anti-semitic behaviour with in the manchester or england (not against an ANTI-ZIONIST picket), where are you going to protest???

To put it nicely, your falling into the hands of the council, and the police, and shotting yourselves in the foot!

2 It isn't the VTI complaining about "not"funnyjunk.com, it is me as an individual! If you look at the images on BOTH sides have and use, they are used to back up what they are say. They are not used to make people laugh, they are used to make people think! That is why i'm asking for people complain about the use of the images!

Any type of oppression is wrong, but can't be used to justifed to oppress another people. Yes, the Jewish people have been the most oppressed people! In the last 100 years they have suffer pogroms (1 i know of was in 1905 in Russia [feel free to correct me if i am wrong]), and were 6 million of the 11 million killed (11 million TOO MANY) in the Holocaust. (I have heard from one source the holocaust could of been as high as 15 million people killed)

pogrom

n.

An organized, often officially encouraged massacre or persecution of a minority group, especially one conducted against Jews.

Can this justify the suffering of the Palestinians? If England had a black government, and they choose to opprose white people, because of oppression that we have treated them since the slave trade, would it be a justifiable reason?

Everyone should be equal, with equal rights! Rights to education, Rights to medical care!

Also, any comments i put on here are my own!

It is great to know that people in the west are strongly coming forward to support the Palestine Movement.
The zionists cannot escape naked truths.Their nemesis will hunt them down and time will have its revenge on them.
Long live the Movement against Zionism.