Army madness in Manchester City of Peace today

One of those suddenly appearing policemen (i swear they grow from seeds behind you)says "what exactly is your intention, ladies"
"we're talking to people"
"so what is it you have in your bag"
"a megaphone. is it illegal now to bring a megaphone in a plastic bag into the city center? Its not a weapon of mass destruction is it. Its not a gun (like the two big anti-tank guns sitting just behind us by coincidence)

So the moral of this story, children, is in future, be careful what you carry, avoid megaphones, bring guns.

but check with the city council first....

didn't mean STWC. I meant some other political group known for hijacking events who are also a major component of the centralised organising committee of STWC. It was surreal to start with with one lot at one end of the street, and another lot at the other... and it caused a lot of anger and tensions between the groups of people, especially when a lot of energy seemed to be going into giving out RESPECT stuff. George Galloway is anti-abortion, hardly a socialist position, i think.
I'm going to duck now and run for cover before George sues.

how can a group take over a demo? wasnt the demo about iraq and lots of different groups joined it? i mean yeah some people organise a demo and others join it to show support and agreement... is n't it a good thing that another group joined it and took pictures to publisise it? i dont really know what u r talking about and i wasn't there so it is very hard for me to understand what everything was all about..

a bit confused...

It seems the right to protest and organise ourselves is increasingly being closed down by the armed section of the capitalist state, ie the police. Over here in Liverpool we're experiencing intense levels of that, tenants hassled for leafleting, police questioning and harrassing tenant activists under direction of private landlords, Housing Associations, Housing Companies etc. However where are the police when our homes are being burgled? Where are the police when buses are being stoned? Why is it the police rove around in armoured yellow van with CCTV cameras on them here in Croxteth, yet they never catch the guys kitted out all in black who burn out empty houses at 4am in the morning when residents call them???

Well let's be honest the police aren't there to protect us, the working class, they are our prison guards on the estates, and whenever did prison guard ever come to the rescue of those they are supposedly guarding. Whenever we organise ourselves, protest against unjust policy or decisions effecting our lives the police are there to stop us protesting, they are there to hassle us, fit up us, lie and make up offences to charge us with.

On the day of the first strike on Iraq in 2003, at the demonstration in London in Parliament square a group of young people were arrested and man handled in a heavy handed manner, an SLP youth who was arrested as part of that group was charged for allegedly throwing an empty plastic bottle at a police officer?? The charged youth offered "take my finger prints and compare them to the ones on the bottle!" Oh and because it was in Parliament Square their defense requested that the CCTV footage be viewed to see who actually threw it! Well of course it was a police lie (we working class people know they lie regularly) but of course the usual middle class or upper class judges or magistrates trust their bully boys in black, and our youth member ended up with a police record he's a student studying to be a doctor and a £350 fine...

So much for democracy, the right to protest, and fair justice... It doesn't exist in GB!

At what point in time would we say we lived in a police state then?

Incidently Liverpool and Manchester should work more often joint campaigns and protests we could certainly learn a lot from one another!

Oh and that was S-L-P above not the SWP I mentioned above...

Hi NuYorican. You are right. People coming to demos can’t take over demos. Demos are just groups of people with a shared purpose. I didn’t have anything to do with the organisation of this demo but the problem comes when people start getting pissed off because the demo was called by people who wanted to protest about the horror of Fallujah and it becomes a platform for SWP and RESPECT (who firstly did nothing to get it together, then put the STWC stamp on it, then set up down the road from where the meet up point was, then set up stalls at either end and basically caused a lot of tension, that wasn’t helpful and didn’t have to be there). And, more importantly, lots of people have a problem with using a demonstration to promote a political party. People came together to protest about the killing in Iraq. Not to get George Galloway, and the rest elected. Its about not having another agenda, I suppose.

And Kai,
You are right too (hey me with all this you are right stuff – I should be a schoolteacher ) but its true that the “right” to protest is increasingly being shut down. And I don’t care whether its SLP or SWP or any other party (personally I don’t do political parties unless they have nice food, people, exotic beers no things that look veggie and are actually unexpectedly chicken). The police are there to hassle us, fit us up, make up offences, make us scared, make us lie. They grow behind us…
And manchester and liver pool should work on joint campaigns and protests. I go to manchester social forum which has done The Ministry of Truth (street theatre around civil contingencies bill, use of CCTV in cities) Maybe people from manc and liverpool should get together in a pub and say hi?

Since when did being anti-abortion stop you from being a socialist. You may well be a socialist and pro-choice as I am but that dosn't make being pro-choice the socialist position.
On the whole I appreciate your contribution to Indymedia but your sweeping generalisations and throw away comments can irritate.
I'm not trying to censor you Heather just asking you to think a little before you type.

I think that heather is correct to actually say what the position of George Galloway is in relation to abortion, because all the groups that have joined RESPECT actually bang the drum about the rights of the individual!

The rights of the individual include the right for a woman to choose (another point which gets allot of attention by women and the left wing movement).

What is happening though, is a bad case of optional socialism, a pick n mix of ideas which people would like to think are popular among their ranks and that they do not want to rock the boat with the others in the RESPECT coalition, but as a long time Socialist and as some one who comes from a very long time Labour Party and socialist back ground, the question of a woman having the right to choose is not just a case of having an opinion, for Socialists it is infact a fundamental!!!

The issue for me is the simple fact that what George Galloway says, does infact become the position of the RESPECT Coalition for the wider audience out side of the Left, for the simple reason this whole project is being built around individuals and not a broader movement.

Galloway is the one leading RESPECT, he is the public face of RESPECT and it is him who people out side of our sphere of thinking see making such statements; thus making conclusions.

How as a movement though, can the SWP, George Galloway and more important their female members actually explain to women in not just the UK but in the world, to those women who do not have access to medical care and seek back street abortions, to those women who may have been raped by their husband or by other relatives and fall pregnant, to women in countries and areas who are sexually trapped because of the lack of contraception that they as a movement believe that they should be "free" from this "oppression", but there are certain aspects like abortion that they can no longer accept because they have to tow a party line!!!

Coming from an Islamic back ground, I and others (We refuse to join RESPECT because of such positions) stand by the right of all women regardless, having the right to choose if they want an abortion or not and if George Galloway and the SWP want to play at being Socialist, to the socialist, communist to the communists and more Conservative to the conservative elements of RESPECT, then maybe they should drop all pretence and actually be honest with all of the people, all at the same time!!!!

I think that heather is correct to actually say what the position of George Galloway is in relation to abortion, because all the groups that have joined RESPECT actually bang the drum about the rights of the individual!

The rights of the individual include the right for a woman to choose (another point which gets allot of attention by women and the left wing movement).

What is happening though, is a bad case of optional socialism, a pick n mix of ideas which people would like to think are popular among their ranks and that they do not want to rock the boat with the others in the RESPECT coalition, but as a long time Socialist and as some one who comes from a very long time Labour Party and socialist back ground, the question of a woman having the right to choose is not just a case of having an opinion, for Socialists it is infact a fundamental!!!

The issue for me is the simple fact that what George Galloway says, does infact become the position of the RESPECT Coalition for the wider audience out side of the Left, for the simple reason this whole project is being built around individuals and not a broader movement.

Galloway is the one leading RESPECT, he is the public face of RESPECT and it is him who people out side of our sphere of thinking see making such statements; thus making conclusions.

How as a movement though, can the SWP, George Galloway and more important their female members actually explain to women in not just the UK but in the world, to those women who do not have access to medical care and seek back street abortions, to those women who may have been raped by their husband or by other relatives and fall pregnant, to women in countries and areas who are sexually trapped because of the lack of contraception that they as a movement believe that they should be "free" from this "oppression", but there are certain aspects like abortion that they can no longer accept because they have to tow a party line!!!

Coming from an Islamic back ground, I and others (We refuse to join RESPECT because of such positions) stand by the right of all women regardless, having the right to choose if they want an abortion or not and if George Galloway and the SWP want to play at being Socialist, to the socialist, communist to the communists and more Conservative to the conservative elements of RESPECT, then maybe they should drop all pretence and actually be honest with all of the people, all at the same time!!!!



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i'm not a socialist btw. and the problem is that i think too much but apologies if my comments irritate you. however, i do think its important that people are aware that the key individual in the formation of RESPECT is anti-choice and I agree absolutely with annon. You cannot preach a woolly version of equality when a key political figure would not support a woman's right to choose to do with her own body. And this is not a throw-away comment. I have worked for 13 years with women and men facing these choices. I have probably heard almost every story possible to hear about the reasons and the pressures surrounding people who have to choose. I have been attacked physically by "pro-lifers" outside the clinic. I have been rung up at night and told there is a bomb outside my house. I have been followed home and my children have been threatened. These are the tatics of people who prioritise the possible existence of a foetus against the lives of living, thinking, acting, independent, individuals.

What kind of socialist society is it that denies this right?
If you want to vote RESPECT, do it but at least don't try to shut people up when there is something that stinks and should be known.

I always remember the fight for the right to choose as a crucial part of the feminist movement. I think I want to know how prospective election candidates would vote on motions about abortion. We can see how this has become such a reactionary issue in America.

and there are another two conversations about this going on on uk indymedia. Worth a look.

If people are asked to vote for a candidate they can ask that candidate to answer their questions about important electoral issues or those issues that they feel or may become important. In America, the right to choose is a huge issue with the recent attacks on the Roe v Wade decision. In this country, there has been an onslaught on the right to choose and, throughout a lot of it, I was there. If George Galloway is anti-choice, and states it clearly in the media (as he has done in the Independent, and politicians once elected, can make choices based on conviction, then it is dangerous in terms of the right to choose to elect George Galloway. Don't think these rights are automatic, or uncontested. They are not. It is not a smear campaign against George or against respect. it is an important issue. and I'm sorry if me and others like me don't just shut up and go away because the BNP might get in. He openly supports the anti-choice people and as a politican, lends them credibility. Take it from someone who has been woken in the middle of the night to be told there is a bomb at the side of the house when she was alone with little kids. Who was beaten up in front of the clinic by a crazy man just because I was trying to get the door open at the place where I worked to let a woman in. Take it from someone who has been followed home bumper to bumper by a landrover with headlights on full and had to drive like fuck and hide (with your kids in the back but hey..what do they matter???) I know I've said this, and no doubt am irritating people, but don't take this right to choose for granted.
How will George vote if this issue comes up, and it might well do soon?
Oh, keep out the BNP, but be careful about what ground you give up.

Me and anyone else who'd like to come are going to Leeds to ask George questions on Monday night next week. Details are on Indymedia UK. We're getting the train cause I'll be too knackered after work to drive. The meeting in Leeds is 7.15pm, Leeds University Conference Auditoriam. Its not just George either

"Among those on these "womens right to choose" demonstrations have been George Galloway, Salma Yacoob and Anas Altikriti all of whom are understood to have stated that they would vote to outlaw abortion in all but a few cases if given the chance"

just look at the way respect is spelt in CAPITALS. it must be evil, only evil people would bother putting it in capitals throughout their whole post. language whores!

yeah, sorry to get so angry. that was another thing from the feminist movement, personal is political.
respect.
whatever.

I totally agree with the sentimients of ‘optional socialism’. Would we still excuse Mr Galloway if he disapproved of homosexuals, or asylum seekers – yet again people’s personal freedoms? Being anti-abortion goes against so many socialist principals. You don’t have to be socialist to be against the war, if this were the case then why not invite the British Nazi Party in STWC – I wouldn’t be surprised if they did actually.

come on you lot feminism is so last century, courting muslims is the new cool, even when like west midlands canidate Majid Khan, they support gender segrigation. You know its like equal but different. So come along ladies, don't you worry your pretty little heads about such issues, leave that to George.

P.s. RESPECT ROCK!!!!

[two clauses from RESPECT founding declaration/manifesto:]

- Opposition to all forms of discrimination based on race, gender, ethnicity, religious beliefs (or lack of them), sexual orientation, disabilities, national origin or citizenship.
- The right to self-determination of every individual in relation to their religious (or non-religious) beliefs, as well as sexual choices.

[as far as I can see 'self-determination in relation to sexual choices' must logically include reproductive rights incl. women's to choose, no?]

thanks for the reply (early on) Heather..it does make sense and i totally agree with u about the demo and its aim and how a party can use it to self promote and lose the significance of people dying... thanks for the clarification.

Whilst this issue has caused a storm recently, I think that people have a right to know about what others in RESPECT say on Mr. Galloways point.


The Muslim Association of Britain welcomes comments made by George Galloway MP on abortion in an interview published recently.

Mr. Galloway who is currently leading the newly formed ‘Unity Coalition; Respect’ into the forthcoming European Parliamentary Elections on the 10th of June, outlines his own conviction that abortion is morally and ethically wrong. When asked about the woman’s right to choose, he appropriately posed the question: ‘what about the child’s right to choose?’.

These comments, as well as his statements on faith and God in the same interview, will surely be welcomed by British Muslims who see Respect as a real alternative to the main political parties in the approaching European elections. They also affirm George Galloway’s standing as a man of principle who does not shy away from putting his own position on the line for his beliefs and convictions.

Footnote: The former President of the Muslim Association of Britain, Anas Altikriti, stood down in March to fight the European Elections as candidate for ‘Respect’ in Yorkshire and Humberside. MAB has called on all Muslims throughout the region to back Mr. Altikriti and his fellow Respect candidates.

The Muslim Association of Britain

23rd of April, 2004

Heather
I seem to have caused a bit of upset by my last post. I take your point about the right to choose and restate that I support it. I also agree that some “Pro-Life” campaigners are violent, right-wing thugs. Some people think that human-rights should be extended to the foetus (a position I don’t hold). They hold that abortion is murder and as such see their objection to it as a moral imperative. We all know these arguments. They have been debated ad-infinitum. So I’ll just finish by restating that although the great majority of socialists my be “Pro-Choice” that doesn’t make it the only legitimate socialist position.