Northern Ireland was never part of Britain and never will!

"Tibet is as much a part of china as Northern Ireland is a part of Britain"
You have missed the significance of that remarks accuracy. It is both true and untrue. There are a lot of people here able to cricitise China while realising that China is deliberately being targetted by our own states PRopaganda. If you can accept us arguing for Tibetan independence then we will listen to you arguing about Northern Ireland.

The same thing Propaganda happens with Iran. That is more serious because China is not under imminent miltary threat from our states.

Still, just to be contrarian, here is a lovely song slagging off the death penalty. It shames the USA, Iran and China for one simple reason - they kill more of their citizens than other countries do.


If The Death Penalty Were An Olympic Sport - Tracey Curtis

Well, done America coming in third,
It's the good old USA
Representing the western world,
Thank you for leading the way
God fearing citizens, thank you, well done
Last year disposed of seventy one
Shooting, poisoning, gassing or electric chair,
Invite only, VIPs, be there or be square

Zambia, Algeria, Bangladesh, Armenia, Cameroon, Uzbekistan
Bahamas, Ethiopia, Thailand, Indonesia, Rwanda, Tajikistan
Singapore, Somalia, Iraq and Japan
Trinidad Tobago, Tanzania and Sudan
Cuba, Kenya, Guinea, Qatar, Pakistan
Belarus, Yeman, Laos, Egypt, Vietnam.

Well done Iran, you've done what you can
to stick to traditional ways
You've gained second place by showing your people
that petty crime never pays
Morality / chastity must be preseved.
One hundred and thirteen got whats deserved
Stoning, crushing, hanging, killing children too
Public welcome, get there early to ensure best views

Burundi, Malaysia, Malawai, Nigeria, Uganda, Lebanon, Kazakstan,
Guyana, Belize, India, Korea, Jordan,
Libya, Kuwait, Zimbabwe and Kurgistan,
Jamacia, Ghana, UAE, St Lucia, Oman
Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Gabon,
Democratic Republic of Congo and Taiwan
Syria, Botswana, Palestine, Afghanistan

Well done China, you've got the gold
and you win hands down, fair play
You set your sights and human rights
will not stand in you way
Your peoples silenced, no means to defend
One thousand and sixty met the same end
Quick, efficent, single bullet through the head
School groups, please enjoy your day
and take your thoughts to bed

Yes, there has been a lot of China-bashing in the mainstream media. But there have been articles to the contrary:

 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/mick_hume/article3768155.ece

The comparison between Northern Ireland and Tibet is interesting - but Northern Ireland is a democracy. If its population wanted to break away from the UK, or become part of Ireland, they can vote to do so. No such option available to the population in Tibet, at least not the last time I checked.

A friend in Beijing told me yesterday that there's a sense of incredulity there to the hostility towards the Olympics, after all the hard work that's been done on it. "China's like a excited labrador that's been hit on the nose with a newspaper - it can't see what it's done wrong". Which I guess makes Tibet the wee stain on the carpet.

Because it did show a few scenes of Han chinese people being battered by Tibetans. In particular I remember one Han Chinese man being beaten to the ground by four Tibetans with sticks. The thing is, the scenes it showed were all recorded on individual's mobile phones, which then were presumably sent out of Tibet secretly or posted online - the only way any video news was going to reach the outside world since the Chinese government is ferociously repressive of independent journalism and strictly controls foreign journalists' access to Tibet.
If you want free and fair reporting of what is going on, look to your own government to ease up on the censorship, and stop arresting and killing people for talking to the media.

As for "Buddhists" killing Han chinese:
1. It is a myth that it is compulsory for Buddhists to be pacifists. This is simply untrue. There is a recommendation in Buddhism to do no harm to sentient beings, but there is also a recommendation to use your commonsense, depending on the situation.
2. Tibetans have not been allowed to freely practice their religion for decades, because the Chinese government sees any belief system other than state communism as a threat to its rule. Spend decades trying to wipe out a people's whole culture (not to mention carrying out forced sterilisation without anaesthetic on their women, and torturing them in jails where they've been imprisoned without a fair trial, and a few other nasty little practices) and you can't be surprised if they bite back, hard, at some point.
3. It is surprising that Tibetan independence is the only prominent issue. The Chinese government has treated its own citizens just as brutally. Why is it imprisoning Falun Gong practitioners in large numbers without trial, and having some of them disappeared or killed while in jail? Falun Gong is a harmless rather new age sect, which is based on traditional chinese philosophy. In what way is something that looks like a combination of meditation and tai chi such a terrible threat?
4. Is the whole Chinese population really so brainwashed that they don't understand what their government looks like to the rest of the world? Didn't they figure that holding the Olympics would direct international attention to their government's nasty, cruel practices?

Western governments have nothing to brag about when it comes to human rights, of course. But since they have to hold at least some version of an election every so often, they don't have the scope to quite so brutal as China.
Instead of whinging about China getting a bad press, why don't you WAKE UP to the idea that no country and no culture needs a government, a party, or a political sect for its existence, nor does it need to suppress some other group's culture to maintain its identity.

Sorry, I couldn’t find the BBC video of Hans beaten by the rioters, except the one titled “You don’t see this on CNN or BBC”. Maybe it does exist on Youtube, but that really doesn’t matter so much. Because when there is a will to distort China’s image, there is always a way.

Yes, BBC did report what it called “all sides of the story”, but HOW MUCH on each side? And that’s actually something directly affecting the image portrayed to the audience. Go check the BBC videos and web pages by yourself. When the reporter was talking about the rioters, he tirelessly repeated their resentment to the government, and then searched the vocabulary in his mind for oppression, controlled media, and of course, the “brutal security forces”, but the security forces didn’t appear on the footage at that moment, but don’t worry, the reporter quickly added “that MAY mean the video originally came from a government man.” If 90% coverage of a report was given to the “protesters” plus the comment of the reporter trying to guiding audience’s opinion, and 10% given to the Hans AND TIBETANS beaten and killed by the rioters without the reporter saying anything, do you think the audience could get the truth out of that? Well, BBC could argue that it does reports all sides of the story, 90% on one side plus a biased reporter, and 10% on the other side. See! both sides!

Another example I have experienced myself was the Olympic torch relay in London on 6th April. The BBC news coverage focused their attention on the pro-Tibet independence activists and tried to give the impression that the torch was just struggling all the way across London. Even on the Trafalgal Square, where thousands of Chinese students gathered waving their flags and showing their support for the Olympics, which overwhelmed a handful of pro-Tibet independence activists, the BBC, in a merely two-minute video report, only gave a snapshot to the Chinese students and all the rest time focusing on two pro-Tibet independence activists. That is the fairness of BBC.

Dirty tricks like this are numerous and have been practiced and improved by BBC and some other western media for years. I will just name a few here. To make it easier for you to understand, let’s just take you as an example (no offending, just to make a better explanation):

1. The MAYBE, PERHAPS & APPEAR TO BE trick. While always stressing importance of facts in news report, BBC reporters frequently uses presumptions. When accused of misleading, they could defend by saying that “I didn’t say for sure. I said ‘maybe’ clearly. You can choose not to believe me.” Well, let’s imagine someone describing you to his friend, and he says “Annie maybe a whore.” Just maybe! What impression do you think his friend would have about you, and when such a description is repeated, and to different people, what kind of image will you have in people’s mind. So, such seemingly unintentional guess and presumption CAN be very misleading. And lies, if repeated, could become “truth”.

2. The HINT & MISGUIDING trick. If you watch or read BBC reports about China carefully enough, it would not be difficult for you to find that on many occasions (not exactly every report), the reporters would use some fragments of words and sentences, even a fleer, which seem not important and usually come unnoticed, to hint a negative tone and guide the public opinion the way he wants. For example, when a BBC reporter in Beijing told his colleague doing broadcast in the London studio about a new policy by the Chinese government on pollution control and improvement. Instead of asking a neutral question like “what’s your comment?”, or “What do you think about this policy?”, the one asked “Do you really believe they are serious about that?” So, what kind of impression do you think the audience would get from the question? Imagine someone asked your friend “Are you sure Annie isn’t a whore?” instead of “How do you think about Annie?”

I’m giving these examples not because they are special, but because they are common. There are a lot more other tricks. I’ve tried some interesting experiments, and I suggest you do it too. Randomly pick a week, or even a day, and watch and read carefully every BBC’s report about China in that week or on that day. And see how many of these tricks you can find. Now I’m already tired of it, because the experiment never failed me. Imagine, if you know that a guy would only repeatedly say that “Annie is a whore. (or may be)” and ignore all the merits you have such as you are also beautiful and educated, would you let him into your house for party?

Ok, so much about BBC, and then the Buddhists. I agree with you that it is not compulsory for Buddhists to be pacifists. And there is a recommendation in Buddhism to do no harm to sentient beings. But what if they did do harm to sentient beings? Go check the recorded interview of Dawa Tsering, the so-called “Chinese Affairs Officer of Dalai Lama”, ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JANm_HIVV-8&feature=related) by Radio France International. See how the Tibetan exile government defines violence: “Tibetans were using non-violence…violence means specifically the harm of lives…Tibetans were only beating those Han Chinese. After the assault, Han people all eventually escaped with their lives untaken…the deaths of Han Chinese were all due to accidents…” If you understand Mandarine, I believe you could get more fun from this interview. But don’t worry, its translation is accurate, and you can verify it with someone who understands Mandarine. If you still have any doubts, you can verify it with RFI. That’s really a creative thought, I really want to try some “non-violent beating” on the honest Mr. Dawa Tsering.

“Tibetans have not been allowed to freely practice their religion for decades, because the Chinese government sees any belief system other than state communism as a threat to its rule…” I couldn’t help wondering why there are so ignorant people like you. The Chinese army did once destroyed some temples in Tibet, WHEN THEY WERE FIGHTING THE REVOLTS LED BY THE DALAI REGIME TRYING TO KEEP THEIR THEOCRACY AND SERFDOM SYSTEM IN TIBET. After the liberation of Tibet, the central government has been encouraging the development of Buddhism in Tibet and provided great support to this end. Since the Buddha statues in the Tibetan temples usually use gold and silver for decoration, the central government, in spite of the poor financial condition of the country at that time, offered gold and silver to the worth of 50 million yuan to build the statues. And today, the Tibetan Buddhism is one of the main factors attracting tourists from both in and outside China to visit the “roof of the world”. Besides, do you know that the world’s biggest Buddhist statue is in China? Do you know that the Emei Mountain is one of the Four Sacred Buddhist Mountains of China, and on this mountain alone there are around 30 different temples? Do you know that there are more than 10 million muslim in China who are equally treated and even enjoy a few privileges over the majority Han and not suspected by the government and the fellow people as potential terrorists? Do you know that besides Buddhism, Muslim, and Christianity, there is also a unique Chinese religion called Taoism/Daoism? Of course you don’t know, or you just bury your head in the sand and don’t dare to believe all these are the actual TRUTHS.

You know when you still cling to the Cold War thinking and simply explain China’s “evil” with “communism”, that only makes you like a joke. I can understand what a horrible image communism had in your mind, as propaganded by your media with similar tricks they are using today. I don’t blame you for that because in those years we also had a horrible impression about the capitalists and imperialists. But what makes you a joke is that your thoughts hasn’t evolved in all these years. Today, while the ruling party of China is still called “the Communist Party of China”, it no longer chants communism everyday. And the Chinese people rarely talk about, or even think about communism or communism v.s. capitalism. They have put aside the ideological struggle in the old days and put their attention on practical efforts and work to build this country into a better place and make life better for its citizens.

And don’t be so naïve to use the word “brainwashed” when you see more and more Chinese express opinions different from or quite opposite against the your impression about China, the Chinese government, or other aspects of China, an impression you have firmly believed and continuously reinforced by your media for so many years. Believe me, when many Chinese see your comment posted above, they would think that YOU are the brainwashed one. Ask yourself: Why after the west media’s reports on the Tibet and the Olympic Torch relay, there have been so many Chinese in London, Paris, San Francisco, all over the world coming out and protest against the media distortion, just as those in China? The Chinese in these places all have free access to your “free, independent, and balanced media”. They are away from the “brutality of the communist party in China”. Some of them have lived in the UK or US for many years and already become a local citizen. Are they all brainwashed? In a discussion organized by BBC, a foreign expert analyzed the reason for the students’ protests as “because when the media were criticizing the Chinese government, they said China or Chinese instead of just the government. That’s why the students felt insulted and then began to protest.” The people in the discussion tried to convince themselves that this is the reason. BUT THEY JUST DIDN’T GET IT. The students protested because they saw, heard, and experienced by themselves the strongly biased news coverage of the media and some biased people because of the media. They were just fed up with it. Even some who don’t like the CPC couldn’t tolerate the distortion any more.

In terms of human rights in China, thank you for caring about that. But do you think we Chinese would care about OUR OWN RIGHTS any less than a foreigner does? If there were, as you said, such serious violation of human rights, and people are living in miseries, why are there so many Chinese students, after studying in the US, UK, France, Germany, the models of democracy and leaders of the free world, eager to go back and live and work in China? If the Chinese government wanted to tightly and brutally rule Tibet and wipe out its religion, why would it have spent so much money to construct the Qinghai-Tibet railway which would surely bring many more visitors from both home and abroad to Tibet to discover the government’s “brutality” and their “serious violation of human rights”? WE KNOW CHINA BETTER THAN YOU.

And, When the US and the UK troops abuses human rights of the Iraqi people, why didn’t your media keep reporting them around the clock and why didn’t you keep bashing your government and ask for a “Free Iraq”? Don’t tell me that’s to “bring democracy and freedom to the Iraqi people” or “to give them a democratic and free future”. So many Iraqi civilians have been killed, how can they enjoy democracy and freedom when they are dead? And please remember that when people are killed, their don’t have a future any more. When the Sunday Telegraph disclosed on 6 January, 2008 that the MOD of your country once deliberately dispatched a naval ship of 308 crew members into the radioactive fallout of a nuclear test, why didn’t you call it a “genocide” and ask for the people responsible brought to justice? If you didn’t know this news, fine. Now I have told you, so please do something about it.

So think about these questions. Think about how you would react if the same unfair treatment put on China were put one you. My examples are not appropriate, but its easy to understand. THINK when you watch TV or read newspapers. The television has another name called “IDIOT BOX”, there is a reason for that name.

By the way, if you check BBC News 24’s report on the torch relay in this week, you could hardly feel the kind of “enthusiasm” it had when covering the relay in London, Paris, and San Fancisco, because the torch relay went much less disrupted in Pakistan, Thailand, Malaysia, and even in India. Today the torch almost disappeared from the BBC News 24 screen. When the reporters didn’t see the protesters, they would talk about the heavy security and the closure of the relay from the public. They would try their best not to give a positive image to the audience. It was so funny that when the torch relay was about to start in Islamabad, the CNN reporter couldn’t find even a single disruption to the ceremony. While the camera still shooting the festive (yet heavy security presence) atmosphere and the preparations by the Pakistanis and the Chinese, he began to have a telephone conversation with the reporter in India and spent a lot of time talking about “TOMORROW in India, many protesters are expected.” Now I still watch the CNN coverage everyday, but more as comedies than as news.

While telling you the distortion on China’s image by some western media, I will not deny that China has its problems, just as every other country having its own. There are corruption, pollution, and also human rights problems. But these problems have been greatly and purposefully exaggerated by some western media, thus China became the polluter, human rights violator, and the biggest evil. China takes its own path of development which might be different from other countries. But it is based on its own national conditions and has proved working well in China, there are some that have not been working well, but we are taking efforts to improve them. The Family Planning or One Child policy you mentioned is indeed not appropriate according to the standards of many countries, but it successfully slowed the fast growth of the largest population in the world, and China has successfully fed it’s 1.3 billion citizens, which is an extremely difficult task. Since the Han people takes about 90% of the total population, the government has encouraged the enlargement of the populations of the other 55 ethnic groups, including the Tibetans, in China. They don’t need to abide by the Family Planning Policy and are also given some other privileges. Both the absolute number and the percentage of the ethnic groups take in the total national population have been increasing in the past decades. Now the Chinese government has improved the Family Planning policy by revising that a couple can have two children if both the husband and the wife are only child in their respective families.

China still faces many problems, and will likely to have more in the future. But the government and the people are working to solve them. China is still a developing country. Many things, including human rights, are in a process of development. Given it’s huge population, it is natural that solving some problems in China is more difficult than what you can imagine. As Premier Wen once said “Since China has 1.3 billion people, any small individual shortage, multiplied by 1.3 billion, becomes a big, big problem…” Don’t take everything for granted.

And Once again please stop the ridiculous talking about “brainwash”. No body, no any government, be it the Chinese government, the US government, or the UK government, is able to control the thoughts of the people. China does have official TV stations, official Radio Stations, and official newspapers, but there are thousands more different media and the internet. Nobody can completely block the flow of information and the expression of people’s ideas. When you hear one Chinese express a different opinion from yours, you may tell yourself that he is under the influence of the “CPC propaganda”, but when so many Chinese protest against media distortion and all tell you things that are different from what you had in your mind. You need to think about it rather than trying to convince yourself that they have been brainwashed.

Before I came to the UK, I had a good impression about the UK and not a bad impression about BBC. But after studying and living here for more than four years, I had a better understanding about this country, the people, and the media. Today in general I still like this country and my friends here, but I have also been deeply disappointed by the distorted reports of the media and concerned about its impact.

Still I would say that the western countries, including the western media, do have a lot for us to learn in China. That’s one of the reasons we, hundreds of thousands of Chinese students, are here. We endorse democracy, human rights and freedom as much as you do, and we enjoy ourselves for being Chinese as much as you do for being British, American, French, or German. We have the ambition of combining the good values, technologies, and expertise from both the East and the West and becoming the planners and constructors of the present and future China, making our contributions to the world. We want to be a bridge but what we saw recently was a wall. Many people in western countries, including you, surely need to learn and understand more about China. As you said, the Olympics is a good opportunity for people to know about China. We do believe that. That’s why we keep saying “Welcome to Beijing, Welcome to China” You can go to different places of China, and see by yourself both the development and underdevelopment of different regions, talk to both the rich and the poor, both Hans and Tibetans, discover both the positive and negative sides of the Chinese society, and form your own impression about China. You can express your different ideas, like the way we did in London on 19 April. We welcome different opinions but we don’t welcome distortions. We welcome polite guests but we don’t welcome biased spoilers. We endorse fairness but we object double standards.

Well, we do expect people to listen to us and side with us, but if you don’t want to, fine, just be fair.

Hi Daniel,

After your frankly creepy "WE KNOW MORE THAN YOU DO" comment it seemed strange for you to say this:

"China does have official TV stations, official Radio Stations, and official newspapers, but there are thousands more different media and the internet. Nobody can completely block the flow of information and the expression of people’s ideas."

Erm, except China does block the flow of information on the internet. Have you never heard of The Great Firewall of China?

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Shield_Project

The internet is structured there deliberately so access to international sites can be blocked. The Government also regularly shuts the pipe altogether, as my contacts in Beijing say it has in the last week.

That's part of the reason why so little information has been coming out of Tibet compared to Burma, where the government mistakenly thought that switching off the internet was simply a matter of closing the internet cafes.

You attack the BBC's journalism, but it seems far more informed on this particular subject than you are.
 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/4587622.stm

How can you not know about this if you are from China? O was your "nobody can completely block the flow of information" just deliberately misleading?

...are frankly such batant PRC emissaries, it's hard to read what they've written without laughing.
That's the problem with dictatorships - they don't know how to go about winning over citizens in a democracy.

Hi, Norville,

It's a pleasure to exchange views with people like you rather than DaanSaaf. Thank you for pointing out the information-blocking of the Chinese government. Yes, I do know about that, and I have my own experience. I’m not sure about Wikipedia, but in the usual way I couldn’t log on BBC or VOA website when I was in China, and I did log on CNN website last year when I returned to China. The BBC TV channel is only available in hotels and maybe at some other places. I can also tell you and the China Central Television does not enjoy much reputation in the country and many people don’t watch it. So, yes I know about this problem, and that’s why I said in my previous comment that nobody can COMPLETELY block the flow of information. It’s also mentioned in the article you recommended that there are always alternative ways. I also used proxy server to log on BBC when I was in China. That’s the point I wanted to make. (By the way, in the article BBC is doing its trick again: “There is now an ESTIMATED 30,000-strong internet police force …”where did it get such a “highly-sensitive” number when the Chinese government controls so “tight” even some common news reports).

On the one hand, I don’t think the government has been doing the right thing to block some information (in my opinion, partly because there is some information the government doesn’t want to spread and partly because the reports by some foreign media are too biased and misleading). On the other hand, the harm caused by the biased but powerful western media to Press Freedom and other social issues in China may be far greater than the possible improvement they could stimulate in this developing society, given what how they have been doing up to now. Because with all their distortions and double standards that I have seen, heard, and experienced, with regards to issues concerning both China and other countries, it is impossible for me to believe what they are preaching and not to think that human rights and press freedom are merely, or at least partly, tools for more nasty agendas.

For both the Chinese government and the western media, accusing each other does not justify their own fault. As Chinese, we wish to improve the situation. We do hope people outside can understand that what has been changing and developing fast in China in the past decades is not just its economy, but also the minds of the people. We are more willing than most people in the world to embrace new ideas. In terms of press freedom, subjectively the people are demanding more from the government, and objectively the development of all the information technology and the social environment have enabled the government to realize that it is difficult to completely block the information and it does need to give more freedom to the press. So the Chinese are aware of this problem.

But why didn’t the Chinese rise up and demand for the end of the “tight control of the media” by the “authoritarian government”, and when the western media and people “help speak for our rights”, the Chinese in these countries even had protests? Brainwashed? All are CPC emissaries? LOL if anyone believes such explanations. Because the problem, just like many other problems in China, has been exaggerated and distorted. Why does China block BBC? Simply because the government could not tolerate different opinion? Then why doesn’t it block the Indian media. Indians do not always say what the Chinese want to hear.

Personally, I think the Chinese government is doing well in governing this country and improving the life and also rights of its people, though there are many issues and policies with which I am not satisfied or even angry. I like the current President and Premier, though they always appear as “dictators” on western media. I think many Chinese would like to have the problems in China solved by the efforts of the Chinese people and by the Chinese government rather than being dictated by the western media or politicians. Take another funny example: When you are getting married with a woman, about whom you know her weaknesses but still you love her because you know nobody is perfect. And suddenly someone jumped out and kept yelling that “Your wife is ugly, you should get rid of her.” You replied: “I love her.” And the guy still kept shouting “I’m asking you to do the right thing, she is ugly, get rid of her.” How would you think and react?

I believe you can point out more problems about China. I do appreciate that. And when the problems are pointed out, I sincerely hope that there are also suggestions for solution rather than just accusations. Since ancient times, Chinese people know that “faithful words offend the ears and good medicine tastes bitter.” We welcome different opinions, but only if they come as sincere suggestions or criticism from FRIENDS, or in a friendly way. Propaganda and distortion will only backfire. At the same time, we also hope that people in the west can know a whole picture about China because half truth equals lies. With my own experiences, I found that the gap of understanding is much wider than what we have imagined. It will be very hard and time-consuming to narrow the gap. But as more and more foreigners are coming to China and more and more Chinese are going abroad, they could see with their own eyes (not watching TV) how things are going on in each other’s countries. And we do welcome friends from all over the world to China, not just during the Olympics, but also at any other time. Before you have the opportunity of going to China and see China by yourself, I just hope people can try putting aside the stereotyped image of China in your mind for a while and watch or read something different from what you always took for granted about China. Sit down and talk to the Chinese around you and try listening to their opinions about issues concerning China. If you have the opportunity of going to China, please go and try staying longer there. Get to know the real China by yourself.