Last night London saw one of the big hitters in the 9/11 'Truth' movement, Webster Griffin Tarpley, discussing what he sees as 400 years of false flag terrorism, to a packed audience.
WGT's 2 hr 40 minute talk could best be described as impressive in terms of stamina (he has a good pair of lungs on him, and must have an iron bladder) impressive in terms of presentation, but far from impressive when it comes to analysis, the use of sources and in particular in the conclusions drawn.
Anyone who believes the USA attacked the Serbs in 1999 in order to impress Prince Charles (!) is either having a laugh, gaga, or both.
Here's a report of the event:
http://paulstott.typepad.com/911cultwatch/2007/11/webster-griff-1.html
Anyone who believes the USA attacked the Serbs in 1999 in order to impress Prince Charles (!) is either having a laugh, gaga, or both.
Here's a report of the event:
http://paulstott.typepad.com/911cultwatch/2007/11/webster-griff-1.html
Homepage:
Comments
Hide the following 27 comments
Truth movement activists have done a better job at "debunking" him
06.11.2007 15:17
They also promote absurd 9/11 "theories" like TV-Fakery by linking to such discredited sources as Nico Haupt -- they seem to be Dazzled by Disinfo:
That the main UK 9/11 site opperates a "Big Tent" policy of allowing all nutters to post,
chrisc
Homepage:
http://truthaction.org/
Everything chrisc said
06.11.2007 19:04
Should be enough reading material in those links to get anyone interested up to speed...
Jenny Sparks
Paul Stot's talking bollox again....
06.11.2007 19:40
"The key source for this world conspiracy (aside from renowned political scientist William Shakespeare..."
total bollocks. Webster Tarpley was clearly suggesting the opposite, that Shakesphere made reference to some of these figures in his plays and exposed the activities of some of his contemporaries at the coat-tails of power with allegory, particularly John Locke. His clear reference was to a book called "A True Face of William Shakesphere".
As with your usual bollocks that anyone who is antiZionist is anti-semitic, you spin a deliberately inaccurate intereptation of what was said here, and an incredibly partial view of the rest of the talk. One can only question you and Larry's motives.
Bullshit-Detector
Life of Brian
06.11.2007 22:38
dh
Lungs?
06.11.2007 23:51
Anyone who believes the USA attacked the Serbs in 1999 in order to impress Prince Charles (!) is either having a laugh, gaga, or both.
gaga?
I hope this isn't ageist crap, Stott.
Wonder why all this sparks/arabesque/cosmos stuff starts spewing all over now.....
Little wonder the responsive vitriol
dh
wtf r u
07.11.2007 00:00
dh
... er ... it's complicated
07.11.2007 10:14
I read jenny Sparks et al with interest and am willing to invest a certain amount of trust therein.
The problem:
Division, disagreement and uncertainty.
The solution:
More humility.
I believe that mr WT has shot his mouth off when he would have better inclined to accept misunderstanding as the root of the differences between the parties.
This fractionalisation is common in emerging movements, however resolution of such is less common. Can we try here, now? Please?
There are several wild theories abounding the 911 truth movements ... lets not take ourselves too seriously.
I think we all agree that the smell of rodent hangs heavy in the air ... which can only mean that there is/was a degree of internal collusion. Indeed, the aportioniong of 'gain' from 911 would suggest the usual warmongering crowd at play[sic].
In an atmosphere of danger and paranoia, things can go wrong.
If either mr WT or his antagonists in this case have links with the very people responsible for the outrages, then we would be wise to pick over all their words carefully and avoid slinging mud into an already murky arena.
The trouble with the cassandra complex is that, often the warning of impending events might be enough to ward them off. I can not forget, eg, the peculiar - if not ludicrous - phenomena of 6 nuclear weapons going 'missing' over the airspace of amerika this summer and the improbability of the the required signitures, proceedures etc being overlooked.
Nor, when placed in the context of a rapacious military industrial complex and the philosophical grounding in zionist/imperialist/illuminatti thinking[sic] they bathe in, can I overlook the possibility that plans were drafted for a really big false flag event ... what else is going to save the purpetrators of the war on terra from the ever growing movement to impeach and remove from power?
Take five, reach out, say sorry ... whatever ...
... Mr WT maybe a prat ... who isn't from time to time. Lets not get too heated in our divisions here ... just the facts mac, just the facts.
Peace and love to you all.
jackslucid
e-mail:
jackslucid@hotmail.com
Nothing personal, dh
07.11.2007 13:17
My, you're easy to wind up...
Jenny Sparks
Wind up
07.11.2007 22:49
You just have the power to pull the truth movement apart in factionalism like maybe you accuse Tarpley of
jackslucid - I always love to hear from you - you like me always manage to straddle many fences at the same time
This is what what we have to do. It's difficult - the accusations of moles and adversaries abound
We have to be absolutely sure of our targets before we throw accusations around
On Webster I might be on more sure ground after tomorrow - the chance to see and meet face to face
dh
No Surprise
07.11.2007 23:14
Heidi Svenson
e-mail:
contactnfb@tiscali.co.uk
Homepage:
http://www.911cultwatch.org.uk
They all roll in
07.11.2007 23:57
Any way to damage the Truth movement.
Up you all pop
dh
From the Ministry of "Not-paying-attention"
08.11.2007 00:07
"You just have the power to pull the truth movement apart in factionalism like maybe you accuse Tarpley of "
You do realize I'm hardly alone in this, right? Let's look at the short list of who's trying to educate Indy UK:
Whopper Trapley
Arabesque
Jack Hawksmoor
cosmos
chrisc
and, of course, yours truely.
(sorry if I've missed anyone--you're still appreciated)
You're giving me too much credit by far for the lot, luv. ;-)
The reason we're effective is because the FACTS are on our side--not because Jenny has spooky powers. And we've proved the facts are on our side time and again..you're just too bone idle to check them.
I get it's hard to believe Tarpley's lost it. He has done good work in the past. But the facts speak for themselves--he's lost it, mate. Chuck him.
Jenny Sparks
Colonel Jenny
08.11.2007 00:36
Why do you luv me?
Why should I trust you.
I'll be back tomorrow after Tarpley with a more considered opinion
dh
No Surprise Indeed
08.11.2007 01:14
On the issue of Antonio Negri, co-author of Empire,
The second edition of Webster Tarpley's book, 9/11 Synthetic Terrorism - Made in USA, is available on this site (the current edition is the 4th)
-----------------------------------
The gravest charge against the Gladio project is that it co-operated in - or at least did nothing to prevent - the kidnapping and killing of Aldo Moro, a former Prime Minister of Italy. Moro, a Catholic and Christian Democrat, was known for his view that the Italian Communist Party should be brought closer to government.
It is well known that Moro died in March 1978 at the hand of the Red Brigades. What is less understood, but borne out by a number of well-informed witnesses, is that the Red Brigades were deeply infiltrated by Western intelligence. At the time of Moro's killing the principal leaders of the Brigades were in prison. Colonel Oswald Le Winter of the CIA, who served as a US liaison officer with Gladio, goes as far as to say that the planning staff of the Brigades was made up of intelligence agents. From his prison cell, Vinciguerra agrees.
How was it that Colonel Guglielmi, a senior figure in Italian intelligence, was on hand in the Via Fani in Rome when Moro was kidnapped and his body-guards murdered? Why did Guglielmi say he was there by accident on the way to lunch with a friend when the kidnapping happened at nine o'clock in the morning? Why was it that the bullets which killed the bodyguards were of a type only used by the Italian special services?
-----------------------------------
Following is the paragraph before Webster Tarpley mentions Antonio Negri (to provide context, and he was probably more-or-less correct about who was responsible for the death of Aldo Moro) and after it the only one in which Negri is mentioned:
-----------------------------------
Zamberletti asked me to prepare a study of how the mass media had treated the Moro
case, which had been the dominant news story for two months. I gathered a group of
friends and co-workers from the EIR news agency I was working for at the time, and told
them of the proposal. Out of a desire to defeat the nightmare of terrorism and provide
justice for Moro, most of them -- Italians and a couple of Americans -- volunteered to
spend their month-long summer vacation assembling the study that Zamberletti had
requested. No money was ever involved. The more we looked, the more we found, and
soon our study -- entitled Chi ha ucciso Aldo Moro? (Who Killed Aldo Moro?) had
grown far larger than the brief overview Zamberletti seemed to have had in mind. The
writing was done during the summer of 1978 in what was then the EIR European
headquarters in the Schiersteinerstrasse in Wiesbaden, Germany, not far from Frankfurt
airport. The resulting product was released at a press conference in Rome in September
1978. It was extensively if unfavorably reviewed in the newsmagazine Panorama. The
main finding was that Moro had been killed by NATO intelligence, using the Red
Brigades as tool and camouflage at the same time. The cause of the assassination was
Moro’s determination to give Italy a stable government by bringing the Italian
Communist Party into the cabinet and the parliamentary majority. This plan was opposed
– as a violation of the Yalta spheres of influence, which made Italy a vassal of the US --
by the Henry Kissinger wing of the US foreign policy establishment, as well as by certain
factions of the Italian ruling elite, grouped around the reactionary P-2 lodge, which was
still secret at that time. Accordingly, my study named Kissinger, NATO, and British
intelligence as prime suspects, and not the Warsaw Pact embassies named by the Italian
media. Later, Moro’s widow revealed that her husband had been directly threatened by a
leading US figure over the issue of expanding the majority to include the PCI. This figure
had told Moro that any attempt to bring the PCI into the government would bring terrible
consequences for him personally. Some commentators identified this US figure as
Kissinger, and here they were on firm ground. With this, the thesis of the study, Chi ha
ucciso Aldo Moro, was vindicated. I therefore have a track record as someone who
opposes terrorism; I have shown in practice that I understand how terrorism works. This
is something which sets this book apart from the babblings of the tribe of “terror experts”
who populate cable television and purvey disinformation.
Another thesis of the 1978 study was that those who glorify and lionize terrorism,
providing the terrorists with ideological cover, should be investigated as its accomplices.
One pro-terror ideologue whom I singled out in this regard was Antonio Negri, Professor
of Doctrine of the State at the University of Padua, near Venice. Later, in April 1979,
Judge Calogero of Padua issued arrest warrants for Toni Negri, Franco Piperno, and other
leaders of the allegedly defunct Potere Operaio group. They were charged with being not
just the ideologues and sympathizers, but part of the leadership of the Red Brigades. It
was said that Calogero had been influenced by my Moro dossier. Today Negri is still
operational from his jail cell, helping to inspire a regroupment of violent anarchist
“criminal energy” groups like the Black Bloc, which represent the culture medium from
which future terrorists are being recruited by intelligence agencies in Europe. After the
publication of Imperial Hubris, this thesis should be applied to the CIA, home of what
appears to be the most influential chapter of the Bin Laden fan club.
-----------------------------------
I expect that the paragraph above has now been updated since Negri was released from prison in the spring of 2003, see:
So, it's very clear that in this case Notes from the Borderland / 911cultwatch are correct on this issue, but some things need to be investigated further -- his claim that "it was said that Calogero had been influenced by my Moro dossier" is not sourced, who said this and where and when and can they be believed? Also is his 1978 study available anywhere? This probably contains more damning evidence against him.
As for what Webster Tarpley had to say about the black bloc, well, what can I say... this doesn't make me want to read the book that is for sure...
chrisc
"From where did you earn your militaristic title? "
08.11.2007 02:39
Jenny Sparks
Interesting, but fatally flawed
08.11.2007 02:58
Having looked at the interesting discussion about 9/11 cultwatch on the 9/11 Truth Action forum Chris C links to, I would say four things
1) The books by Nafeez Ahmed & Peter Dale Scott cited are already on our extended reading lists.
2) To make negative inferences, including having us state everybody in the 9/11 Truth cult supoorts 'No Planes' is wrong. As too, attempts to imply we are connected in some way to Nico Haupt. In any case, a blog is for contemporaneous comment on events, not the kind of detailed research we (at 9/11 cultwatch/NFB) are engaged in long-term.
3) Two outrageous errors leapt out at me from the Truth Action discussion of 9/11 cultwatch.
a) the absurd claim that we spend most of our time dissing the 9/11 Truth movement--that is so far from the truth as to be ridiculous. 9/11 cultwatch is, as we openly state, merely an off-shoot of Notes From the Borderland magazine. Of the last two issues specifically, in issue 7 6 out of 47 pages dealt with 9/11, 5 dealt with 7/7 by means of a book review. In issue 8 9/11 gets 1 page only--Heidi's inimitable 9/11 cult round up--again, 7/7 gets three pages. So, an absurd claim far worse than any attributed to us! Perhaps understandable if you only see things on the internet as real--and as the magazine is non-internet, then its reality is downgraded. Precisely one of our main problems with the 9/11 cult!
b) the statement by ChrisC that Class War was "for a time run by MI5". Not only is this untrue, even Shayler himself didn't advance the proposition when I debated with him 21/6/05 (check out the DVD), though he has subsequently changed his line again. If you people actually listened to what we at NFB have been saying about Machon/Shayler for many years, based on evidence, you would know already that his many claims about Class War are at best contradictory, coming as they do from a lying spook who was paid to diseupt the Left.
That said, it is interesting that some in the 9/11 cult have grasped aspects of why we don't like you which goes beyond the usual drivel that we want to be in MI5 or already are. Might well pop along to your forum myself, research/life commitments permitting.
In any event, there is no doubt Webster Griffin Tarpley is a reactionary who boasts of jailing Leftists on grounds that are specious--and as you say, his La Rouchite links make the Kennebunkport forger more than a little suspect. He is one US export that Europeans should make 'return to sender', pronto.
Larry O'Hara
e-mail:
contactnfb@tiscali.co.uk
Homepage:
http://www.borderland.co.uk
dh:
08.11.2007 07:40
For those of us living in the States, the "weather" around this sitch is dead obvious. Obviously it's not so in "Air Strip One". So I'll let it rest a bit. But in turn do yourself a favor, read the evidence and give it a think.
We do not need leaders who call peace activists liars if we want a hope in hell of winning in truth activism.
Ta.
Jenny Sparks
Not fatally flawed
08.11.2007 10:13
Paul Stott promoting Nico Haupt
I agree with you when you said, "It is of course important to distinguish between the hypothesis that NATO/US arranged Moro's kidnap and death, and whether Negri was involved in that. I certainly favour the first hypothesis, but not the second" -- sorry if this wasn't clear above, I thought it was.
You said, "The books by Nafeez Ahmed & Peter Dale Scott cited are already on our extended reading lists." On which page? on this one,
* The War on Truth - Disinformation and the Anatomy of Terrorism By Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed
* The Road to 9/11: Wealth, Empire, and the Future of America By Peter Dale Scott
I mentioned these two books in this post:
You said, "To make negative inferences, including having us state everybody in the 9/11 Truth cult supoorts 'No Planes' is wrong." But that isn't what I said, I said "they are... rather hopeless at separating the disinformation from the good information" and "by failing to separate the disinformation from the good information (for example the overwhelming evidence for controlled demolition) they end up performing the same role as the MSM and the debunking sites, but from the left...".
You said "As too, attempts to imply we are connected in some way to Nico Haupt", well, see the screen shot above, in reference to this I said: "Paul Stott's blog has a "911 Links" box at the top of it's right hand column and it it there are just two external links, one to Nico's "9/11 Truthlings" site and one to "Screw Loose Change" -- another example of a "debunker" promoting "No-Planes" and "TV-Fakery"...". How is linking to Nico's site, one external link out of two, not "connected in some way to Nico Haupt"?
The other examples I cited of Paul Stott's failure to treat "TV-Fakery" and "No-Planes" with the contempt it deserves was his promoting of Andrew Johnson's disinformation site, about which he said "Whether the debate will be any more rational on this new site remains to be seen" and to which I pointed out that "it is obvious that there is no chance of this [rational debate] and they should realise this, after all they correctly label him as a no-planes theorist and a quick look at Andrew Johnson's new discussion board where "research" topics such as Directed Energy Topics (DEW), Mininukes at WTC Research and Media Fakery Research make it very clear that this is a disinformation orientated site on which there is no chance of any rational debate. "
Another example is Paul Stott's promoting of the absurd, Judy Wood praising, Directed Energy Weapons (DEW) brought down the towers article, from Paranoid magazine -- his blog entry on this doesn't even mention that it's a pro-DEW article and he says of it "it is hard to be opposed to critical analysis in any shape or form" -- it's clearly a long long way from critical analysis, it's a dire article, I said "Paul Stott must have read the article since he quotes the disclaimer from the end of it yet he fails to point out that it's a load of nonsense that has been totally discredited by the 911 truth movement."
You said, "the absurd claim that we spend most of our time dissing the 9/11 Truth movement" -- where did I say this? I'm quite aware that the 9/11 truth movement is only an aspect of the things you work on.
You said: "the statement by ChrisC that Class War was "for a time run by MI5". Not only is this untrue, even Shayler himself didn't advance the proposition when I debated with him 21/6/05 (check out the DVD)", sorry, I can't even remember where I read this, it isn't something I have investigated and I shouldn't have made that throw-away-comment.
As for, "it is interesting that some in the 9/11 cult have grasped aspects of why we don't like you", firstly you don't know me so that fact that you don't like me already seems a bit presumptuous on your part, secondly you are once again illustrating the problem I have with your analysis -- you fail to differentiate between the different people who are questioning the events of 9/11. There are cults involved, the best example being Laura's cult as I pointed out above and I suppose the next would be David Ike's following, I haven't spent any time looking into Ike (there seems to be little point since almost nobody takes him seriously) and after that the Alex Jones fan club. I have a *lot* of problems with Alex Jones and his money making empire, there are cult-like aspects to the way he operates and organises, and this is someone, along with his dire politics, that does need exposing. To call the "official" truth movement in the UK (something I'm not a part of) a cult seems to me a misuse of the term, there are cult like aspects but I don't think they are actually organised enough to be described as a sect even.
There are lefties and anarchists involved with the broad 9/11 truth movement and it's your take on their analysis that would be more interesting than some of the people you concentrate on, for example prominent people include Michel Chossudovsky, author of America's "War On Terrorism" and publisher of
chrisc
Larry's a master in obfuscation
08.11.2007 21:34
He rebuts your accusation that he spends so much time discrediting the 911 truth movement by comparing the number of pages he dedicates to it as opposed to other topics. In this, he is completely avoiding the question. The comparison he needs to make it is between pages he dedicates to examining the official 911 line as compared to what he writes about the truth movement, which in terms of the former is absolutely non-existent as compared to the latter.
Bullshit Detector
I'll make it simpler
09.11.2007 01:17
Jenny Sparks
The company you keep...
09.11.2007 09:14
Nico Haupt on 911 Cultwatch and Screw Loose Change's coverage of Webster Tarpley
Screw Loose Change on 911 Cultwatch's coverage of Webster Tarpley
And do you have any idea what reputation Nico Haupt has in the 9/11 truth movement? Are you aware of how he behaves himself at public meetings? If you are not then you should watch this:
chrisc
Nico Haupt at St. Marks
09.11.2007 21:42
Jenny Sparks tracked this down and also said: "Mind, the last 2 minutes--possibly the worst two minutes--are missing. And someone should get this in a safe place ASAP-- before even this one goes down the memory hole."
chrisc
Cheers to everyone who helped with this action!
10.11.2007 22:40
Cheers again and ta for now!;-)
Jenny Sparks
"we do not endorse the site owners no-plane theory rubbish"
10.11.2007 23:04
essential
chrisc
Is this about ego or against the movement?
20.11.2007 21:01
Whoever is to blame for the alleged problems with Kennebunkport it makes no sense to attack the man. FFI Read Gangs and Countergangs by Brigadier General Frank Kitson........
Gangs and Countergangs, recounted KItson's successful efforts in the 1950s in Kenya to create a synthetic, murderous ``countergang,'' the Mau Mau, which wiped out the legitimate nationalists struggling for independence from British colonial rule.
Tony Gosling
Homepage:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/11/386177.html
Nico Haupt - still "essential"
16.03.2008 21:44
9/11 Cult Watch Screenshot Illustrating Their Top 911 Link to Nico Haupt's Blog
In response Larry O'Hara said:
"I have no affinity or association with Haupt, and the persistent and repeated lies to this effect are clearly motivated by a disinformational agenda on the part of those repeating it."
And he also said that Nico Haupt and I are low-life's:
"he is a low-life certainly: as are you for continually alleging an affinity between me & him."
On the same thread Paul Stott clarified why they are linked to Nico Haupt:
"The 9/11 Truthlings site is a perfect introduction to the world of 9/11 truth."
Larry O'Hara then went on to say that I was spreading disinformation by pointing out how the 911 Cult Watch blog is linked to Nico Haupt:
"it seems to be par for the course that any kind of lies/misrepresentation of me is allowed here--eg the Haupt no-planes garbage--yet when I question it, and seek to defend myself/ascertain the precise motives of those spreading such disinformation, it is me who is criticised."
And:
"the most charitable interpretation of ChrisC & others continually drawing attention to Haupt is that they themselves are fans of this sad muppet. Their problem."
"YOUR CONTINUAL ADVERTISING FOR hAUPT TELLS US WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM. nOTED."
Of course I have no links what so ever with Nico Haupt and wouldn't dream of promoting his site, so I replied:
"Larry and Paul are the ones with a blog that has it's top external link, out of just two, to Nico Haupt's blog."
"It's been noted that you consider his site to be "essential" but have presented no evidence that you have actually studied this "essential" material in any detail."
"It has been noted that you have ignored all attempted to warn you that you are linking to and promoting a Redwatch style stalker."
"It has noted that you are clearly not interested in working with "a sensible reality-oriented minority inside the 9/11 Truth campaign itself", those who are "genuinely committed to evidence-based parapolitical research"."
"All this has been noted and lessons have been drawn from these notes and collected here:
Though the comment that their link to Nico Haupt was one of two was wrong -- they have updated their external links and he is one of their 4 "9/11 Links", and of others one is a link to their own site, so they clearly now consider his site to be the most important of just 3 9/11 links. But if you point this out you are a low-life who spreads disinformation...
chrisc
911 Cultwatch drop their link to Nico Haupt
22.04.2008 11:05
911 Cultwatch - no longer linking to Nico Haupt
Could it have something to do with the recent reports of Haupt's activities?
WeAreCHANGE activists physically assaulted at Ground Zero
And, more detail:
WeAreCHANGE attacked at Ground Zero AGAIN!
"Within the last couple of weeks during our weekly Saturday vigil's at ground zero there has been a dangerous individual causing us many problems. His name is Nico Haupt mostly known for his no plane research, and his actions need to be made public for our safety."
"After the Time Square Bombing that took place at the very place that WeAreCHANGE does their street actions each Saturday night, Nico came out to our Ground Zero Vigil with a huge sign saying “We Did The Time Square Bombing.” Nico tried to associate us with the terrorists who committed a horrendous and cowardly act on this city of New York. He continued for weeks with the police department ignoring him, and decided to raise his efforts in trying to destroy our message of peace and truth."
"Nico verbally sexually harassed our female members, bit one of our members nose, choked and punched one our members and committed other horrendous acts all while the police always let him walk away without checking his I.D. There is video of all his actions, and it will be published in the coming days. It will show what we have to go through, and if there is another altercation, the public will know the truth behind this matter."
"This past Saturday Nico came down wearing a fake Hitler mustache on his face, verbally harassing our members. He then walked up to Sabrina Rivera and myself, charging at our faces trying to put the Hitler mustache on us. There was a scuffle, and when the police where called, Nico was seen trying to walk away. The police came and because it was not witnessed by them, Sabrina and Nico were issued summons and will have a day in court."
chrisc