UK Indymedia | police try to 'negotiate' EDO march

police try to 'negotiate' EDO march

Sussex police are trying to get activists to meet in advance of the rally and march in Brighton town centre on December 10th. Here are the last two mails from Sussex Event Liaison Officer Sean McDonald.

MAIL FROM DECEMBER 1ST

Michelle,
As I stated in my previous e-mail, I forwarded your e-mail to Superintendent
GRAY and he has asked me to reply on his behalf.

Firstly, I would comment on your final sentence where you say:-
"We suggest that you reconsider your approach and allow us to march on the
10th."

I am not aware that anyone has told you that you could not march or that anyone
has stated that the march will be banned. If this has been stated to you I
would just like to say that is NOT our position.

Sec 11 of the Public Order Act gives a number of conditions attached to any
public procession which includes advance notice by organisers etc. Even though
this has not been completed we are looking to facilitate your march.

However, to be able to complete this we would ask for some assistance from you
and hopefully this is not too difficult:-
1. What are your anticipated numbers? Rough amount would be fine
2. What time the proposed march will start? When will you move off from
Churchill Square?
3. Can we together try and ensure that participants will conform on the march.
I know that Supt GRAY has personal experience of a march at the Aquarium
roundabout where some people decided to sit in the road and we do not want
this. (Does neither of us any favours)
4. Can you identify someone to be a liaison on the day. Not someone we would
classify as an organiser but someone we could speak to. (My first thought was
+++++ ++++++++ (name edited out)?? Decent chap NOT regarded as an organiser)
5. I expect you will have legal observers. Will you have stewards?
6. Remember that Churchill Square is Private Property so keep to the pavement.

Don't be put off by this as these are points we can work on. The reality is we
are big enough to accept this contact as a first step to allow us to
collaborate and ensure a successful day from both our points of view. It has to
be borne in mind that we have adequate resources to stop the march but if we
can allow the march to happen peacefully, my honest answer is that this would
be our preferred option.

The route would be similar to the SAFP/RESPECT march which passed without any
problems and there were no arrests (and minimal Police resources). If we leave
from Churchill Square, march to the Clock Tower, Queens Road, North Road,
London Road, and up to the Level. You would HAVE to have a Police escort for
health and safety and as part of the risk assessment but numbers could be
reduced. (Probably a van at the rear to ensure a distracted motorist does not
hit the rear of the procession)

Lastly, Supt GRAY has requested that we have a meeting, in confidence, venue of
your own choice, where we GUARANTEE there will be no covert follows or filming
or Special Branch etc. Probably just the Supt and I, both well known uniform
Officers. We are aware that there is no relationship of trust as yet but
perhaps this can be a step towards it.

Do not be put of by this last sentence which I am obliged to put in here but
this e-mail is without prejudice.

Do we have a deal?

PC Sean McDonald
Hove Police Station.

MAIL FROM DECEMBER 2ND

To whom it may concern.

I was disappointed not to receive a reply to the e-mails I sent you yesterday
regarding the proposed demonstration on 10th December 2005.

I can only repeat what I have previously stated and hope that you can contact
me. If you do this I am sure we can reach an understanding whereby your march
can pass peacefully and everyone can achieve the best results. Would you place
on your websites that I have repeatedly offered to help with your
demonstrations and marches?? Would you say I had offered to help support your
right to protest?? The only time a march MIGHT be banned is if we have no
understanding of your intent (presently we have no statment of intent.) Would
it be fair to disrupt 25-30,000 in Brighton Town Centre? And would this be
regarded as a success?

Contrary to what you may think a successful day for Sussex Police would be a
well organised demonstration, a peaceful march, no arrests, no incidents and
minimal Police Officers in attendance. I presume a successful day for
yourselves would mirror this plus some good press coverage.

Things can be changed by a variety of methods and peaceful change is my
preferred method. Ghandi, Dr King ??

PC Sean McDonald
Hove Police Station

marches not bombs

Comments

Hide the following 8 comments

As I feared...

02.12.2005 20:15

I'm a Trident Ploughshares Pledger (Plymouth group) and did police liaison for the 2003 and 2004 Devonport camps.

The first time I did the job, the police were very friendly. It was all 'Help us to help you' and 'We want to facilitate peaceful protest'.

They were far more of a hindrance than a help, and I believe this was deliberate.

One of the things they let slip was that other forces elsewhere in the country were watching how Devon & Cornwall police handled our camps and actions, and were looking at implementing their measures in their own jurisdictions. So I'm not surprised they have tried this sort of thing with Smash EDO.

The police have a different definition of 'liaison' than most people. Their definition involves you giving them as much information as they can get, while giving as little as possible (frequently nothing at all) in return.

They are NOT your friends, though they may appear friendly.

They are there to gather as much information as possible, and give as little as possible in return.

They are NOT to be trusted. EVER.

If you decide to have police liaison, make sure that your designated person has as much support and understanding from your group as possible. It is a miserable and thankless task, having to be in the middle of cops on one side and activists on the other, with both complaining that you aren't being helpful enough.

I did it for two camps, and I will NEVER volunteer for the job again.

Pilgrim

Gandi, King and PC MacDonald

02.12.2005 20:38

Heh - Sean mate, did you really mean us to follow in the footsteps of Gandhi and King?

" Gandhi proclaimed an organized campaign of non-cooperation. Indians in public office resigned, government agencies such as courts of law were boycotted, and Indian children were withdrawn from government schools. Throughout India, streets were blocked by squatting Indians who refused to rise even when beaten by police. Gandhi was arrested, but the British were soon forced to release him."

http://www.kamat.com/mmgandhi/gandhi.htm

" In the United States, the most outstanding theoretician and practitioner of civil disobedience was civil-rights leader Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. During the 1950s and 60s he achieved international fame by leading numerous peaceful marches, boycotts, and sit-ins. Like Gandhi, he was jailed several times. The beatings, mass arrests, and even killings of civil-rights demonstrators pledged to nonviolent civil disobedience were important factors in swaying public opinion and in the ultimate passage of new civil-rights legislation"

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0909663.html

Its great that you're proposing them as role models for the demonstration - but I have to say that their philosophy seems somewhat at odds with your call for " a peaceful march, no arrests, no incidents and minimal Police Officers in attendance."

Perhaps you'd care to clarify?

You ask us this " Would it be fair to disrupt 25-30,000 in Brighton Town Centre?"

My guess is that this a rhetorical question and your answer would be no. In the spririt of reciprocity, perhaps you'd consider this question.

IS IT FAIR TO DISRUPT THE LIVES OF MILLIONS OF IRAQI AND PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS WITH BOMBS?

You might have guessed that that too is a rhetorical question, but should bear in mind that it goes to the very heart of what this demonstration is about.

In your response to this site, you asked another (I presume rhetorical) question:

"Am I being unreasonable??"

My answer is that when we then see the conditions that you seek to impose, that you are being UNREALISTIC.

So anyway, as someone who cares about the issues of this demo, even though I am most certainly not an organiser and not even involved in the campaign, I'd like to point out a few things about the conditions you seek to impose.

1. What are your anticipated numbers? Rough amount would be fine

How long is a piece of string? Its a public call out - could be anywhere between 1 and 1000 - we like you won't know till we see who turns up.

2. What time the proposed march will start? When will you move off from
Churchill Square?

My experience of similar marches would be somewhere between an hour and two hours after the advertised time.

3. Can we together try and ensure that participants will conform on the march.
I know that Supt GRAY has personal experience of a march at the Aquarium
roundabout where some people decided to sit in the road and we do not want
this. (Does neither of us any favours)

Gandhi and Martin Luther King would have approved of the roundabout sit-in me thinks! The question just leads to more questions does it not? Are you going to pay the extra 'cops' - or do you want them to do the work of the coppers who are paid to restrict our freedom for free? And of course, conform to what? Is this a civil obedience class or a demonstration against an arms manufacturer? If we don't know how many people will be on the march, we can't possibly know how they intend to behave. Are you going to ensure that the paid coppers adhere to the 'non violent' methods that you are promoting? We've all seen the video of the copper sticking his fingers into the eyes of a handcuffed protestor ........... So far all the violence on these protests has come from your fellow officers old chap

4. Can you identify someone to be a liaison on the day. Not someone we would
classify as an organiser but someone we could speak to. (My first thought was
+++++ ++++++++ (name edited out)?? Decent chap NOT regarded as an organiser)

You can speak to whomsoever you like. I cannot see how any individual can possibly be empowered to speak on behalf of every single protestor there. How would they gain the authority to do so? If such an individual was to have the authority then there would need to be a meeting of every single protestor to reach consensus on what that individual is empowered and not empowered to say on behalf of each individual. This could set the start time of the demo back by several hours..........

5. I expect you will have legal observers. Will you have stewards?

My guess is no. Who would appoint the stewards, and where would they get their authority from?

6. Remember that Churchill Square is Private Property so keep to the pavement.

Are protestors banned from spending money at the Churchill Centre? During what times is this ban in force?

Now, its nice that you consider the points to be negotiable, and I'm looking forward to your response to the points I raised - but you didn't just finish there, did you?

"Lastly, Supt GRAY has requested that we have a meeting, in confidence, venue of
your own choice, where we GUARANTEE there will be no covert follows or filming
or Special Branch etc. Probably just the Supt and I, both well known uniform
Officers. We are aware that there is no relationship of trust as yet but
perhaps this can be a step towards it."

You don't seriously expect anyone to be so foolish as to trust Supt. GRAY do you? We are aware of the level of communication between yourselves and EDO MBM and that the suggestion for the injunction came from your force. What does Supt. GRAY hope to gain from this meeting?

Over to you Sean.

And do read up on Gandhi and Martin Luther King a bit more. You should understand what they thought was necessary to change public opinion. Pretty much all the things you hope to avoid innit!!!!!

Aluta Continua

Fed up!

03.12.2005 07:53

I am fed up with the cops managing peaceful protests pre-emptively. It's like they are looking to make trouble. Gone are the days when people could stand on a street corner or march without first obtaining the consent of our masters. Protesters are confined in a crush behind tapes and steel barriers like a load of cattle, with lines of cops leading marches like organisers and traffic blocking police vans bringing up the rear. The net effect is to devalue the protest in the eyes of the general public, which is probably the intention.

Me.

This could go on for ever.

03.12.2005 23:19

I have said in my previous post that I will not enter into an "open letter" debate here. I can be reached at Hove Police Station (0845 6070999), SMASHEDO have my e-mail address or you can call in.
Just bear in mind I am just a P.C. trying to do some small thing on 10th December whereby we can all have a successful day.
The ethics or justification for a war in Iraq we can discuss at any time a I have discussed with numerous protestors at these events.

PC Sean McDonald

Conflict?

04.12.2005 11:59

I think we need to be pragmatic here and consider what is strategically best for the campaign. If a demo is thought to be a good idea then we should do what we can to make it take place without conflict rather than worry about political purity or being seen as collaborating with the police. The campaign has been very successful so far in terms of defending ourselves against the full weight of the legal system and could well have results that will impact positively on other campaigns (let's hope). Local and some national public opinion has been broadly on our side (or at least not against us) and we have the support of many people in Brighton. In many ways we have already won a resounding victory thanks to somebody stupidly employing the services of a grubby lawyer who hasn't a clue what he's doing.

I have my own opinions about the police and am fully aware of collaboration between them and EDO to remove their little problem and they will always support money making rather than the likes of us so it's not a case of being naive but I'd prefer to spend my time campaigning against arms dealers than battling the police directly.

What is certain is that if it all goes wrong on Saturday we will not come out of it looking good and could provide more ammunition to use against us in the court case. I, like others, have been openly and publicly critical of the police where their actions have been indefensible but it's clear to me they are at least trying to be seen as reasonable so shouldn't we do the same?

Negotiation is difficult and does involve compromise but if no approach is made before Saturday then I suspect the police will turn up in force in any case. Negotiation then would be much more difficult, the demo may well be banned and conflict would be almost inevitable. I know not everyone cares about public opinion of our campaign but I do and I don't think the local media will let us off the hook this time.

Pragmatist

...

04.12.2005 13:52

"The ethics or justification for a war in Iraq we can discuss at any time a I have discussed with numerous protestors at these events."

PC Sean McDonald, have u been involving yourself in politcal converstations whilst on duty?

...

One last time

04.12.2005 20:38

I'm not going to get into a public debate but.....Ok I admit it.

I'm just trying to appear reasonable and friendly so I can work out who you people are and pass information to Special Branch and EDOs legal team.

We want to arrest the ringleaders and fit them up on some charge or other with draconian bail conditions so they will just stop going on about EDO MBM. This will help us to get our injunction made permanent and save us lots of time and money. I have nothing against arms companies and EDO promised me paid sex holidays in Thailand this Christmas. Its just business.

I will make you coffee at the station if you just talk to me. I also have some shit hot skunk that a mate in the DS gave me last week. Come round.

Looking for a good time? I can be reached at Hove Police Station (0845 6070999)

PC Sean McDonald

PC McDonald

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