With the confirmation from the police that they shoot and killed an innocent man unconnected to the bomb attacks last thursday, a vigil has been organised to protest against state sanctioned murder and the shoot-to-kill policy.
The vigil will take place 10am till midday at Stockwell tube station in South London, the site of the murder.
Please bring banner, placards, candles, flowers etc.
some ideas for slogan might include
Stop the killings
Injustice triggers violence
Prosecute killer cops
Murder is murder
No to Shot to kill
No piece, more justice
Terror is terror no mater who does it
You might consider wearing black.
Puffer jacket or backpack optional.
Cops and jornos NOT welcome!
Please bring banner, placards, candles, flowers etc.
some ideas for slogan might include
Stop the killings
Injustice triggers violence
Prosecute killer cops
Murder is murder
No to Shot to kill
No piece, more justice
Terror is terror no mater who does it
You might consider wearing black.
Puffer jacket or backpack optional.
Cops and jornos NOT welcome!
Comments
Hide the following 40 comments
Please Forgive
23.07.2005 22:37
The police aren't the enemy, the terrorists are. They make everybody fear each other.
Liberal
Hello Goebbels!
23.07.2005 22:53
I hope you have a modern Leni Reifenstahl to record it all?
artaud
Purpose of demonstration?
23.07.2005 23:24
Why no journalists? Isn't the purpose of a demonstration to make a point and to spread this message through the media if possible?
Namaste
Richard
Vigil for victims of 7/7?
23.07.2005 23:32
Taking the piss out of the cops in this serious situation will no help anyone. How do you think the families of the cops feel at this moment? They aren't killers, they were doing their jobs. Would you rather protect the public and hunt for the terrorists than let the police do it?
The real murderers are the TERRORISTS that bomb london. You're playing into their hands by protesting against the police, they want to divide us. You're helping them. If the London bombings didn't happen this man wouldn't have been shot dead. The Islamic terrorists are to blame, not the police who are trying to stop them.
M
Protest the bombers and their sponsors
23.07.2005 23:50
Why did he run??
Would you be protesting about the cops' actions if a bomb went off?
admit your preferences
Thank you for organising this
23.07.2005 23:54
There have been too many innocents killed at the hands of this government and it's getting ridiculous.
I've just heard that the Brazilian foreign minister is travelling to London to seek an explanation from Jack Straw.
This is is a horrific incident that should not pass without a hell of a fuss - condolences to this man's family and friends.
MC
Oh dear
24.07.2005 00:03
And yes, I have been to a vigil for the victims of July 7, one organised by an anti-war group which was a vigil for victims of war as well as terror.
This government has the most blood on its hands, and it is them that seeks to divide us. The police have no right to chase an innocent man and pump 5 bullets into his head.
If he was a member of your family I'm sure you would take a different attitude though.
MC
The Judean Peoples Front
24.07.2005 00:04
Until you smell burning rubber. Then you will be the first the accuse the police of deriliction of duty.
Alec
Their War - Our Dead
24.07.2005 00:07
Yes, myself and many people I know have attended the vigils held in London in the aftermath of of the bombings here. I have been at two - and people I know have been at the others. How many vigils have you attended M?
I will be attending this vigil tomorrow for Jean Charles de Menezes, just as I attended the others, with a heart full of sorrow and rage against the violence of our leaders Blair, Bush et al, and against the violence of our would be leaders from Al Qaida et al.
And i will be there out of respect for all the ordinary people, both in London and around the world, who have had their lives destroyed by our masters wars.
Murder is murder, whether it is commited by Islamic jihadis or by the British police. Unite and say no to terror.
humanist
brainless post
24.07.2005 00:14
whatever
state blunders - predictable and dangerous
24.07.2005 00:37
Some will ask why supporters of Indymedia and the global anti-capitalist movement are so concerned about the murder by British state forces of Jean Charles de Menezes at Stockwell, London. What is it about this innocent 27 year old Brazilian electrician on his way to work, held down on the ground and shot in the head five times?
Surely in the context of the massacre of 56 people in the recent bombings, with more attempted, we should trust the police and state forces to protect us? If ‘shoot to kill’ policies and loss of civil liberties are the price to pay for security, then is this not a price worth paying? Should we not, in a time like this, all rally around our state and its forces?
This has been the theme of tabloid corporate newspapers, not to mention their dull echo in a few right wing web-trolls here.
However, the murder at Stockwell is one more example of why the state can’t defend us, why in fact it does the opposite.
Many of us will have had experience of how stupid, racist and paranoid the forces of the police and state can be. Anyone who has taken part in non-violent protest actions against war, poverty, the G8 or the arms trade will have experienced the phenomena of paranoid over-policing. We will have read the police press releases about how our festivals are ‘paramilitary training camps’, and how our carnival props are ‘deadly weapons’. We always thought this was simple police propaganda, but maybe the police actually believed this? Maybe they really are fools who don’t have a clue?
Furthermore, there is evidence that these killers at Stockwell were not just police, but 'special forces'. In other words, strange, disfunctional young men brought up on violent fantasies, who spend all their time in the Gym and playing with guns.
Perhaps they are so stupid, paranoid and racist that all foreign looking people in London – from Brazil, Asia or Africa - look like ‘terrorists’. They cannot tell the difference and therefore they cannot be trusted to ‘root out the terrorists’. They can only blunder around like dangerous fools, making the situation even worse.
The whole British intelligence and security establishment don’t have a clue. Look at what they confidently said about Iraq and WMD! They only have paranoid fantasies.
The elites running British police / security / intelligence / military apparatus are public school upper-class twits. They have no real understanding of the modern world, of young working class people, or of today’s multi-ethnic Britain. Their footsoldiers are drawn from the most thuggish and ignorant strata. Institutional racism is combined with institutional stupidity.
The police, as an institution, are part of the same traditional complex of state power that also includes the military. Both embody the mindset that leads to the occupation of Iraq and the disastrous policies of Bush and Blair. These forces are part of the problems that the bombings are part of – and cannot possibly be part of the solution.
BK
re: The vigil
24.07.2005 00:50
"If the victim is innocent like we now think, I bet the police who shot him would be most upset by the whole thing. Why not invite them, too and forgive them?"
What do you mean by "we now think"? Who is "we", and what evidence is there to suggest he is anything but wrongly killed? He didn't have a bomb, he wasn't a muslim, he is "guilty" at most of running away from men in plain clothes with guns. I am 100% certain that the police will be there - and I am also 100% certain that they will behave appallingly, will throw their weight around, and will act outside of the law that they pretend to uphold.
"The police aren't the enemy, the terrorists are. They make everybody fear each other.You're playing into their hands by protesting against the police, they want to divide us. You're helping them. If the London bombings didn't happen this man wouldn't have been shot dead. The Islamic terrorists are to blame, not the police who are trying to stop them."
From where I'm sitting, it looks to me that a lot of people have many things to fear - the bombers, the police who can decide that they might be bombers and shoot them in the head with 5 bullets, the liberals who applaud such police action even when it is shown to be completely unwarranted and murderous, and the racists who are being whipped into a frenzy which puts every single ethnic minority in this country at risk. And most of all the politicians and corporations that put us all in this situation with their illegal war on Iraq and their bombing of Afganistan to bits, after funding and arming the muslim extremists that they now say are the threat.
______________________________________
Artaud
I invoke Godwins Law - you are the weakest link - goodbye.
____________________________________________
Richard
"Friend,
Why no journalists? Isn't the purpose of a demonstration to make a point and to spread this message through the media if possible?"
No - this is a spontaneous action by people who feel upset, angry and concerned that a life was brought to an end in such a brutal and unwarranted manner. By people who also feel that something must be done about the new powers that allow cops to shoot Brazilian electricians in the head whist the liberals applaud. By people who don't know what to do next, and want to talk to other people and work out what the next step might be. By people who want to pay respect to Jean, who could just as easily be a friend, neighbour, brother, cousin, husband, colleague. It is not called by a campaign group or committe, but by ordinary people for ordinary people. I will be there - and my views are not necessarily reflected in the initial post.
Perhaps from it will come a plan to have a bigger action - or some other way of responding to the crazy events of the last few days.
__________________________________________________
M
"I wonder how many of the people who go to this have done a vigil and have paid their respects to the victims of 7/7?"
A good few I would imagine.
"Taking the piss out of the cops in this serious situation will no help anyone. How do you think the families of the cops feel at this moment? They aren't killers, they were doing their jobs. Would you rather protect the public and hunt for the terrorists than let the police do it?"
What do you mean they aren't killers? They killed a man .... and it sounds like a bloody funny job to be mowing down Brazilian electricians on tube platforms. I'll tell you this for nowt, if it hadn't been for the cops, people would stopped the war from happening - the bases would have been dismantled, and the country brought to a standstill until the troops were withdrawn.
Then we wouldn't be having a discussion about how cops killing an innocent man is an example of cops protecting an innocent man.
The real murderers are the TERRORISTS that bomb london"
Is that right? I understand that no-one was killed on Thursday 21/7 by the bombers, but that an innocent man was killed by the police on Friday 22/7. Which part of that statement is wrong?
As for the bombers of Thursday 7/7 - yes they did indeed kill nearly 60 people I believe. And how many innocent Iraqis have died since then? Allied forces are directly responsible for a third of the Iraqi civilians slaughtered and the British state is indirectly responsible for 100% of Iraqi civilians slaughtered. TONY BLAIR and GEORGE BUSH are also real murderers - and our own innocence is hardly proven by the fact that they have both since been re-elected, is it?
________________________________________________
admit your preferences:
"Don't run from cops when they ask you to stop.
Why did he run??"
When did running from cops become an executable offence? Why do you accept it so easily?
"Would you be protesting about the cops' actions if a bomb went off?"
Probably not - I'd blame the bombers, Bush and Blair - however you are aware that there was no bomb to go off, aren't you? So your question is a meaningless hypothetical.
_________________________________________________
Alec
"Until you smell burning rubber. Then you will be the first the accuse the police of deriliction of duty."
Strangely enough, no. I'd be blaming the bombers, Bush and Blair. As long as the cops had acted with in the law, and with respect for us and our civil liberties, I wouldn't blame them if they didn't stop a bombing.
Can you find a thread on Indymedia where the cops get blamed for Thursday 7/7? I have to say that I genuinely haven't seen one. I have seen people asking questions about what really happened though - and I think thats a healthy and positive reaction.
We were led to believe that Jean, the Brazilian electrician was DIRECTLY LINKED to Thursday's bombing attempts, when he actually wasn't. Remember?
_______________________________________________________
Humanist and MC - I look forward to being with you tomorrow.
BRB
Brainless police admirers
24.07.2005 00:53
PS:It's amazing how some people fail to acknowledge the gravity & the implications of this cold-blooded murder,now that even the Police expresses its belated and worthless "regrets".And,yes,the cops who shot the guy dead are MURDERERS and they and their families should feel upset,to say the least!
PS2:Having said that,I congratulate humanist's post:concise & to the point
Yannis
welcome to my world
24.07.2005 02:18
Welcome to my world, welcome to amerikkka!
kb from AZ
Who told you?
24.07.2005 08:28
Qwerty
Do some reading BK
24.07.2005 08:54
Dear oh dear oh dear... The whole scandal about the Iraq dossier was precisely to do with the fact that the security services held back from saying that Iraq "definitely" had WMDs. They thought it quite possible but expressed reservations. They were in fact very pissed off that Dowing Street "sexed up" the dossier to turn "maybe haves" into "haves". The final dossier also took the issue of battlefield WMDs being made ready in as little as 45 mins into a more general assertion that British territory (Cyprus airbases) could be at risk in 45 mins. Why did Downing Street do this? Because the intelligence provided by the security services as it stood did NOT allow Blair to argue the case for war convincingly.
artaud
Please Remember you are all Victims.
24.07.2005 09:22
I listed the different degrees of "victimhood" pointing out that the family of the bombers are as much victims as any other family of the dead.
Since then, I have observed that for many living in London
only God, or Allah was responsible for the bombs of July 21 not exploding,
a fact others would attribute to "chance" or "luck"
divine intervention would have helped cross community efforts more.
But no-one could suggest the fortuitous "escape" was thanks to the Police.
Instead, psychosis masquerading as stoicism has taken London since July 7.
It is very likely that since the 7/7 many people have suffered
psychologically, and many have entered delusional states, in which
they do appear - "detached", in which they do wear "unsuitable clothing",
in which they do say "the wrong thing".
Some of those will have stayed at home avoiding public transport.
Others will have found themselves phoning the police every time they see an unattended bag.
Very few will have crossed a civilised line and made hate calls or racist graffiti.
Some might conceivably feel themselves targetted by police or security forces,
be they asian or brazilian in appearance.
Quite a few will have found "god".
Some might conceivably be amongst the 3000 police officers carrying guns.
You must remember this victim of Stockwell, as both a victim of Terror,
and as an ordinary Londoner. *Not* as a brazilian, but as a member of *your community*.
As someone just like you. That might help normalise and emotionalise in a more healthy way.
ipsiphi
stop and think
24.07.2005 12:57
The suggestion of wearing puffer jackets and rucksacks makes me flinch at the utter tastlessness behind such a suggestion. As someone who has been involved in activism with youth of colour in both the US and UK, it never fails to astound me how oblivious to their own priviledge white people can be. To suggest that white anarchists ironically dress like suicide bombers at what is supposed to be a vigil for a dead man merely highlights just how safe white people really are in the hands of the police in this current climate. I was in NYC when Amadou Diallo was murdered by the police and at a large demonstration, white activists organised some direct action that happened at the same time families of the many people murdered by the police were telling their stories. Here these white people who were not even tenuously affected by police brutality were detracting from the very real experiences of people of colour to make themselves feel radical.
We should be making every possible effort to promote the safety of working class people of colour in Britain right now rather than trying to make idiotic, tasteless political statements. Hopefully a young Muslim man will not take this comment at face value and head to the demonstration only to be detained while all the white people with dreadlocks walk right past the police.
youth worker
Well said!
24.07.2005 13:08
Qwerty
please keep your values to the fore.
24.07.2005 14:29
* In the last weeks over 300 people have been arrested in Pakistan.
how many are truly culprits? Pakistan says not one is related to July 7.
* In London one is dead.
he was as innocent "as any brazilian may be".
* This week, 7 people have been released from Guantanamo who were innocent.
1 was extradited to Spain, he's guilty 520 prisoners remain are they guilty or culprits?
*In Egypt one man Magdi El-Nashar was linked by global mass media to London's bombing and has been released he wasn't guilty he was innocent.
* Since yesterday in Egypt a round-up has begun, will the first suspects be of such high quality as those in London? will they turn out like Magdi El-Nashar to just fit a profile, but be at end innocent?
* In Spain yesterday, always mindful of the terrorist threat, a small device exploded in galicia, related to local fascist problems, and a family of 6 moroccans crashed into an airforce base outside Madrid, causing a full alert but it was an accident.
However despite the obvious "threats" and "problems" nobody got shot.
In less than 12 hours it was reported as a terrorist attack to an unfortuante accident.
Innocent till proven Guilty.
all bombs are fascist.
Our way of life means criticising the police.
For they have never proved themselves in Britain, at least, of being that good
dealing with terrorist investigations under huge public pressure. Maybe it would help taking the pressure of them...
Sir Ian Blair ought resign, and a public inquiry be started, and "society" i.e.
you people in indymedia UK must build your sense of community, of victimhood, and recognise that Terror is changing your core values, values which in common with those of occidental christian or jewish or humanist traditions and the wealth of differing islamic traditions helped make peace long ago between us.
It is very normal for you to have an inquiry, and criticise the police.
Do it. & to link what is occuring to British Foreign Policy. Criticise the government.
Not only in the UK but in Pakistan, in Egypt everywhere where "authority" attempts to deal with arbitary slaughter by imitative extremist terrorism. For in many ways, "authority" may not properly deal with such things.
Almost to a one, you recognise that the collective US response to the NYC events was
psychotic and the wrong one.
So nip your own wrong reactions in the bud. "Be truly normal."
ipsiphi
Innocent victims
24.07.2005 15:40
In all your listing of "innocents", you never once listed the victims of the terrorists.
The innocent victims in London.
The innocent victims in Madrid.
The innocent victims in Beslan.
The innocent victims in Egypt.
The innocent victims in Bali.
The innocent victims in New York.
Why did you leave out all the innocent victims of the terrorists?
I think I can see where your sympathy lies. And it's an ugly thing to see.
Blit
tasteless?
24.07.2005 15:44
"Hopefully a young Muslim man will not take this comment at face value and head to the demonstration only to be detained while all the white people with dreadlocks walk right past the police."
got to say this is a bit patronising and could even be said to reflect not too well on the credibility of youth workers! though I'd hate to see you all tarred by this inane response - any others out there wanna show a little more nous? I'd hate to think this comment is an example of why our youth are as alienated and pissed off as ever despite the plethora of 'youth workers' on the streets....
erm.. at what point does it become a suicide bomber outfit to wear two exceedingly common items of daily wear in our city?
I've got several rucksacks and a puffa in my wardrobe, as presumably have countless other londoners of all shapes, sizes, colours and faiths. I often wear one or both, as do many many others. i might have worn either or both today, to the vigil. would - or should - that have got me detained? would it have made me tasteless just because I'#m not what - brasilian? male?? dark haired?
why would anyone assume that everyone who went to the vigil would be white? that we'd have no experience of repression? etc etc etc
why the hell would a 'muslim' be any more likely to act on some fairly meaningless suggestion on imc than anyone else, and anyway, the point is now that anyone can be a victim of violent idiocy (police OR terrorist) whether they are white brown or purple, yellow bellied or buddhist or brasilian or even youth workers?
if we are gonna respond to this situation in a grown up way, avoiding outbreaks of demonisation and fascist urges, i'd suggest we gotta chill out on the old abuse of other people based on random assumptions that everone else is more of an 'white middle class dreadlocked thrill seeking' idiot than we are.
by the way i didn't see any dreadlocks at the vigil today. if I had, would it matter if they were on a white or a black person? why?
what i did see was londoners of diverse shapes, colours, ages, faiths. some with rucksacks - (is the risk in the two straps? funny, i just remembered they banned them at stonehenge solstice a year or two back too, some people carried them on one strap and got in, as I remember.. anyway. digression). one or two were maybe even wearing a puffa - though to be honest I wasn't clocking that, and nor - to their credit - did the cops seem to be. they actually seemed pretty subdued for once. i suspect that this has made some of them think a bit.
my impression was that we at the vigil were all pretty sad, angry, and determined not to let this shitty situation get worse if we could possibly help it. fyi 'youth worker' we had speeches from people of various genders, colours and levels of experience of repression, and links emerged between this issue and the ongoing struggle for justice for the many (mainly black...but not all) londoners previously killed by police...
and to be honest I think this emerging movement would appreciate solidarity rather than patronising condemnation from 'youth workers'!
cheers
wondering
Premeditated murder IS a gross dereliction of duty.
24.07.2005 16:14
Blue Zappa
blit...
24.07.2005 17:19
'in the past weeks'
as I think we are all aware victims of this shit in new york, beslan, madrid etc were not created 'in the past weeks'.
there have been many victims on all sides, any humane person must be aware by now. it is just a shame for our shared humanity that some get so much more attention than others.
'blit', please note, either you are not reading carefully before condemning others or you are a bit biassed yourself...
still wondering
Dear wondering,
24.07.2005 18:07
I'm more than used to people involved in left-wing activism reacting negatively to any suggestion that they examine their own privilege and accountability to perpetuating racism. So unfortunately, I'm not at all surprised by your rant. When people have had no experience of meaningful work with young people, or anyone else who has a history of oppression by the police and authorities, then they make stupid suggestions or put their own radical "creds" before the work that actually needs to be done.
Of course, the easiest way to detract from anti-racist statements that are aimed at activists and would force someone to look the tiniest bit inward is for those activists to try to turn it around by crying racism (i.e. the comment about me being patronising to young people). It's such a common and well documented pattern (you could start by reading the book 'White Like Me' by Tim Wise) that I often feel little compulsion to waste my time trying to make a further point. I'd rather spend my time working with the disaffected young people who most people would rather keep at a comfortable distance while trying to bemoan how terribly they are discriminated against. To try to speak for the oppressed rather than working to help them speak for themselves is the dictionary definition of patronising and something that activist circles are plagued with.
youth worker
Tasteless? Well, yeh actually...
24.07.2005 18:39
Quite apart from anything else, the vindictive and vitriolic tone of your counter-post sums up why the message(s) you and, I would hope, most of us who ever pass through imc would want to spread to the world so spectacularly fail to reach an audience broader than, well, this website's. It's mean-spirited, it's inarticulate and, frankly, it's not even an accurate interpretation of the original point.
See, you asked: "erm.. at what point does it become a suicide bomber outfit to wear two exceedingly common items of daily wear in our city? " (I like the utterly disgusted, these-people-are-so-beneath-me 'erm' to open with. Classy), as if it is youth worker's question to answer. Yet this is obviously the IMPLICIT intention of the original poster: that protestors should wear the very garments most associated with the bombers in order to confront the police with the very apparent flaws in their profiling.
I can't even be bothered to respond to the top post - I think that the vigil in and of itself is an important gesture, and I am pleased to hear it made its mark with the contributions of all; this is only as it should be. But I do chime in with youth worker's concern that it sounded, once again, as if some self-appointed 'radicals' (definitely worth the 's there, mind) were going to spin off and do their 'better informed' (ditto) thang - even in this case if it was a, yes, pretty tasteless symbolic gesture aimed purely at flicking the finger at the poliss rather than taking in the bigger picture. We've all seen it with the 'anti-globalisation'/ 'anti-capitalist' movement, or through our own political involvements, and we've sure as hell seen it on indymedia and, frankly, I have had enough. From your description of today's vigil, it sounds like it was a success. So tell me - did anyone follow the above proposals. And if so, exactly what contribution did it make?
Cunno
oh dear
24.07.2005 19:40
***
Are you actually trying to say that the original comment to dress in a puffer jacket and rucksack was not to suggest that wearing that would make one look like a suicide bomber?
****
to be honest, I think that people might choose to wear a puffa and/or rucksack, even after reading that, either cos it's what they'd have on anyway; or cos it is so patently ridiculous that wearing them is some kind of 'excuse' for shooting random people dead that it could be construed as a kind of cynical comment on the state of the city's policing today.
either way, I think there is a major difference between dressing in normal urban streetwar - with or without a cyical sub plot - and dressing in a bomb belt with wires. I'd not advocate the latter, and I don't think anyone else did either.
maybe u could lighten up?
****
I'm more than used to people involved in left-wing activism reacting negatively to any suggestion that they examine their own privilege and accountability to perpetuating racism. So unfortunately, I'm not at all surprised by your rant. When people have had no experience of meaningful work with young people, or anyone else who has a history of oppression by the police and authorities, then they make stupid suggestions or put their own radical "creds" before the work that actually needs to be done.
***
rant? well I'm not alone in ranting am I. I'm upset about the state of things, the G8 bullshit, the bombings and now this shooting. and while there is all this shit happening some youth worker has decided that the main problem is some group of white, non self-aware, privileged dreadheads who - in this context anyway - exist only in their own imagination.
my response is that the idea that everyone but this critic is failing to examine their privilege, racial assumptions etc is unnecessary, patronising, and very probably wrong.
as is the assumption that they are the only person here with the 'experience' to speak on such matters. sorry to disappoint you, youth worker, as I get the feeling you'd like to pick my background apart because of whatever is eating you, but I am not going into my own relevant experience here. I can imagine there are a lot of people reading this who have a lot more relevant wisdom amd can't be bothered to spell out their own experience either and I simply dont want to set a trend that most people won't have time - or, I suspect, inclination - to follow for your benefit.
maybe it *was* a stupid suggestion to wear a puffa and rucksack, but maybe it wasn't, and maybe most of all it was a bit unnecessary to take it so very seriously?
*****
Of course, the easiest way to detract from anti-racist statements that are aimed at activists and would force someone to look the tiniest bit inward is for those activists to try to turn it around by crying racism (i.e. the comment about me being patronising to young people).
**
sorry? do I understand you to be saying I was calling you racist by saying you patronise young people? well, I didn't say you are racist, in fact I didn't raise the issue of race at all, except in response to where you did, repeatedly, and I'm still not sure how it was relevant. I don't think I explicitly said anyone patronises young people either, though since I don't presume to know the age - or race - of either the youth worker or of any other readers here, I can't say that for sure...
****
It's such a common and well documented pattern (you could start by reading the book 'White Like Me' by Tim Wise) that I often feel little compulsion to waste my time trying to make a further point. I'd rather spend my time working with the disaffected young people who most people would rather keep at a comfortable distance while trying to bemoan how terribly they are discriminated against. To try to speak for the oppressed rather than working to help them speak for themselves is the dictionary definition of patronising and something that activist circles are plagued with.
***
you've really lost me to be honest. I'm fully aware of the problem of 'speaking for' the dispossessed, and try where possible to work against it myself. I went to the vigil as myself, for myself, because I am sad and angry about what is happening, not about peoples' jackets and bags. can't speak for anyone else.... but I got the impression that upset with the politicians, the bombers and the cops was a more common feeling than any issue about our jackets. again, race, age etc not an issue there.
I wonder why you feel so compelled to stress the importance and authenticity of your own work and experience in a context where you have presumed so much about race, hairdo, privilege, self-awareness etc. of others of whose reality, with respect, I suspect you know next to nothing.
there is clearly something eating someone here which is presumably very serious and important in their other contexts but which is nothing to do with the situation at stockwell and the people organising for peace, justice etc. and therefore, as far as i can tell, nothing to do with this thread, let alone me. so I'll leave you to your urgent work solving whatever's bugging you in the real world, and get on back to mine.
ps it's not a personal revolution I'm part of, it's something fairly global. and as I said above, I really don't think anyone paid much attention to peoples' clothing today - it was a vigil, not a stake out by tense and armed cops. imho a bit of tasteless suggesting and/or puffa wearing in the face of the unbearable maybe crass on occasion, but given global injustices we gotta keep pushing the edges wherever we can without violence, and from what I know of most people 'out there' in the real world, we'd rather a lack of taste on occasion than to restrict our movements to the bland unthreatening schemata of humourless social workers!
cheers all, and peace.
still...
children
24.07.2005 20:18
Why such kneejerk reactions to suggestions? Do you not have autonomy, to turn up dressed and with whatever slogans you want? If someone's organising something, it's fair enough to suggest dress codes or a message, but you don't have to follow it. Maybe you're ego is so big that you have to react to the slightest hint that someone is telling you what to do! Grow up.
oh dear
before you post
24.07.2005 23:10
Whether on a demonstartion or in a police cell or being arrested - certain statistics and experiences come out.- Roger Sylvester, Kebba Jobe, the guy passing by on Mayday who happens to be black, the Pakistani on an antifash action.... We've all seen it. I have been quite surprised and shocked but no more. I could list tons of 'incidents' but I won't as I'm sure you all do. However you try and justify things, what, like the 'Defence ' industry, murder, mass rape and torture for the diamond needle on your stereo system, for the fuel to power your car, for the cash crop food ( do you like coffee or chocolate )on your table, for the right for people to wear suits and make a good living designing, adminstering and selling bombs, DU, bullets and their means of delivery eg. EDO, Raytheon etc.
Ask yourself - who is the 'war on terror' aimed at?
Trolls you are deceriving yourselves while you are in this state of consumerist, feckless, skill-less luxury
another m
You're all so right
25.07.2005 07:25
youth worker
to ipsiphi
25.07.2005 09:24
"It is very likely that since the 7/7 many people have suffered
psychologically, and many have entered delusional states, in which they do...say 'the wrong thing'."
A classic example of that is the feeble attempts at black humour of people queuing at the airport, who mention the word "bomb", then get arrested at gun-point.
A drunk guy shouted "bomb" when I was in the Post Office the other day which I found very distasteful.
.
no no no youth worker rules!
25.07.2005 10:17
tell you what why don't we get you to check the wording, and race and haircut of the poster of every notice about any more upcoming demos? because without you, it might be the activists for racial, ecological and social justice creating the police repression in the mad quest for thrills in the face of the global war on terra. in fact why don't we all go hang out with the kids and feel good about our superior political analysis rather than doing any demos at all?
sorry I don't like being sarky but as you can probably tell, we've both got to each other by now and I just wish that your comments could have been a bit more constructive and a bit less presumptive of everyone else's naive idiocy. and yes by now I am not being constructive either and what a shame that is.
and still...
nb
25.07.2005 11:16
**********
In the past, New Yorkers and others have demonstrated against police brutality holding aloft plumber's helpers and wallets. At the very least, Londoners should hold a "padded heavy coat" demonstration, and DARE the fucking cops to shoot them down.
If Londoners don't give enough of a shit to do even that, then it will be increasingly difficult for me to give a shit about them.
I only wish we had more Brazilians in L.A., so that the UK consulate could be surrounded. In heavy jackets, of course. :)
If wearing a heavy jacket means an automatic death sentence, then I'll wear mine. It's like wearing a yellow star in Denmark during WWII. They can't kill us all.
*********
go, youth worker - do your worst!
xxx
wondering who
it will be so lonely and COLD this christmass, mud sticks
25.07.2005 16:01
their profile of a suicide bomber,
with winter approaching , we will be facing two evils,
the blind bomber and our beloveded hit squad trained by the Israel Security Agency ?
do they sell heavy winter coats in israel.
copy and paste from the Jerusalem Post.com
The head of the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) confirmed last week that Israel presently receives some 60 intelligence warnings of potential Palestinian terror attacks every day, and this month alone several Israeli women and teenage girls – and now Rachel and Dov Kol – have been killed in various attacks.
Such was the nervousness in London on Friday that, at 10 a.m., a dark-complexioned man was shot dead on a train at Stockwell Tube station in south London. Witnesses on the train immediately said it was clear the man had been unarmed. In the words of one, he was "literally executed." He was already lying on the ground motionless, having tripped, when British police pumped five bullets into his head at close range. On Saturday evening the police confirmed what had been fairly apparent from the time of the shooting – that they had mistakenly targeted an innocent man. It turned out he was a Brazilian Catholic.
this young foreign looking man was selected for death as soon as he entered, the street
copy and paste from the Jerusalem Post.com
Israel has taken enormous care in its "targeted killings" of "ticking bombs," almost never killing anyone in a case of mistaken identity.
CONTRARY TO the absolute lies told in British media in recent days, the Israel Defense Forces have not instituted a shoot-to-kill policy, or trained the British to carry out one. For example, on Friday, at the very time British police were shooting the man in the Tube, the IDF caught and disarmed a terrorist from Fatah already inside Israel en route to carrying out a suicide bombing in Tel Aviv. Israeli forces didn't injure the terrorist at all in apprehending him and disarming him of the 5-kg. explosive belt he was wearing
And yet, for taking the bare minimum steps necessary to save the lives of its citizens in recent years Israel has been mercilessly berated by virtually the entire world
Had Israeli police shot dead an innocent foreigner on one of its buses or trains, confirming the kill with a barrage of bullets at close range in a mistaken effort to thwart a bombing, the UN would probably have been sitting in emergency session by late afternoon to unanimously denounce the Jewish state.
i recommend the shops in london this winter ,
to sell this top of the line, bolero , white men need not apply , you lucky sods
A bolero is a jacket, with or without sleeves, that ends at or above the waist and is open in the front. It is inspired by the short, embroidered jackets worn by Spanish bullfighters.
i'm proud to be british
i was born in wood green london
my mother is greek british citizen and loved it, god bless her soul
my father is a anglo indian a true brit, god bless his soul, a blood line that started from wales,
Dennis Wheeler
e-mail:
dennis.wheeler1@ntlworld.com
Enough
25.07.2005 21:16
'In fact why don't we all go hang out with the kids and feel good about our superior political analysis rather than doing any demos at all?'
What, as if doing demos is the be all and end all, if not the very pinnacle of activism? I would add that being a youth worker is a damn site more credible than being a semi-professional agitator, or wannabe journalist who uses their radical politics as a veil for their inability to articulate. Disagree? Then put your cards on the table: tell me how you made the world a better place today, this week, this month or this year. Apart from dressing up as a suicide bomber and daubing another slogan about the pigs, that is. For fuck's sake...
Mugwump
WHY NOT APOLOGISE RATHER THAN JUSTIFY
25.07.2005 22:22
I think in any situation when an innocent life is taken, no matter what the circumstances, it is only respectful to apologise for such a tragedy. Even, it is found that this innocent man was found not to comply with the police, I still feel it is never an excuse to kill someone innocent. And in fact Tony Blair and Ian Blair have not once apologised for this death (they have "regretted" the incident but never apologised). In my view, even it is found that the man was at fault, surely the MET needs to take some responsibility for both their failure for reliable intelligence, reliable monitoring techniques and reliable decisions from the so-called "Gold Leader" who was managing this operation. Clearly, they must have failed somewhere in their processes or the people the employed for thie operation, as no one can dispute that this is a tragedy.
I urge the leaders and every one on this forum to respect Mr. de Menezes death, as the facts remian that a tragedy occured, that an innocent life was taken and the MET made a horrible and disgraceful mistake. For greatness in a man is measured not by his successes but how he overcomes failure. The MET needs to admit and apologise for their mistake.
I remind all of you that it could be anyone of you that was killed in Stockwell, given the right and prevailing circumstances.
A process that allows mistakes should never ever be justified, but rather a commitent to use a process that will reduce the risk of this happening again. Both Blair's need to stop justifying their "shoot to kill" policy but rather admit that it needs to be looked at.
We all need to feel safe, but either can be felt with the terrorists or the police. And that, history has shown, could cause a radical change of policy by politicking or even riots. If peoples anger at this shooting is not properly channelled or managed, I pray the latter will not happen.
If anyone knows how to contact the family or the group that is supporting them please let me know as I would like to assist in their endeavour.
Thank you for letting me have my say.... and taking the time to read it.
SW
e-mail:
beetlejuice500@yahoo.com
no - sorry
25.07.2005 23:08
but yet again - vv important: puffa jacket does not equal suicide bomber!!!
meanwhile, not putting myself above anyone
no interest in daubing cop slogans to be honest
just sad and angry about shit going down and don't like seeing basically good people made out to be racist and naive on top of it
how I made the world a better place today?
dunno really.
tried to cheer up a mate who was down.
worked awhile for Friends of the Earth, trying to give voice to people from the South whose lives, countries, and all our futures are being fucked up with our money by oil corporations and the world bank.
fed, walked and cleaned up after a very old dog, with love.
arranged a space for a lot of good people to have a meeting.
made sure that someone in the US, who'd gained the impresssion londoners didn't care about the random brasilian, knew that a lot of us do - like we care about people in iraq, afghanistan, nigeria, niger and godforsaken knows where else.
then I also got wound up by a sarky youth worker, and a bit depressed by the lack of humour that shitty developments in the world bring out in the best of us.
that enough?
you?
still wondering, sad
Reward
26.07.2005 00:10
Need the cops name that shot Jean Charles de Menezes. Reward £ 1 k - ( £ 2 k with printable picture).
newsmax
Jean Charles de Menezes
26.07.2005 04:11
Thanks so much! Terry
Terry
e-mail:
terrybitzel@rockymountains.net
Hey Dennis
30.07.2005 13:36
-B.Z.
Blue Zappa