We're here! We're Queer! And we don't drink Israeli Beer!!

I think that it is a bloody disgrace - how dare the Israelis try to stop suicide bombers attacking their buses and cafes.

By the way - it is actually 97% fence and 3% wall. The wall was built over a small strip where terrorist snipers fired at Israelis and killed, amongst others, 10 month old Shalhevet Pass.

It is a typical revisionist trick, championed by David Irving, Goebells and now by the extreme left to re-write history - this is why you call it a wall. The reason that a fence was used is that it can be removed and moved when a two state solution (to which Israel is committed), just as the fence on the Lebanese border fence was moved under Res 425.

The number of deaths as a result of suicide attacks and other terrorist actions has fallen enormously since the fence was set up.

Of course this will upset the extremist left as they only tolerate Jews when we are defenceless.

You are as bad as the BNP - you are no different to the right wing.

Chaim, build the wall on your own fucking land you nobhead. If I'm building a fence, I don't build it in my next door neighbours garden. It's called robbery.

Ignoring for a moment the rude and crass language you use Hermes, consider this:

Until there is a disengagement from the territories, rightly or wrongly there are Jewish communities in these areas.

Many young people have grown up there knowing nothing else.

If they are not protected, they will be killed.

Robbery (as you call it) does not carry the death penalty in England or Israel - yet if left unprotected, these people would be murdered.

Terrorists have regularly attacked settlements, often on religious holidays hwne they know that several families can be targeted in single rooms in one attack.

That is why the fence is needed until the communities may be resettled and then the fance may be moved.

Israelis do not like living in a self contained prison. We do not like to hinder Palestinians from getting to work, we also do not wish to bury any more of our loved ones.

I appreciate that this may be difficult for you to understand but Israel wants peace and has always reached out to her neighbours for peace. When Egypt wanted peace, we made peace, when Jordan wanted peace we made peace - with whom do we make peace now? Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Aqsa, Islamic Jihad?

Maybe Abbas will prove to be a partner for peace, but the terrorist organistations are not and our people must be protected from them.

It was terrorism which constructed the fence.

The Palestinians also wanted peace. And all during the Oslo process Israel continued building and expanding illegal settlements on their land. Peace does not mean lying down and letting Israel do whatever it wants. And that has been the problem. For the Israeli's, the peace process was about what percentage of the remainder of Palestine should belong to the Palestinians. For the Palestinians, that was insulting, as it should be about the right of return to the land that was stolen from them in 1948.

There was a secular Palestinian leadership with whom to make peace, but their credibility was destroyed through being unable to stop continual settlement building and a continuing occupation. The burden to make sacrifices does not just rest on the Palestinians. It rests on Israel as well. Giving up the settlements is hardly a sacrifice, because that land didn't belong to them in the first place. Saying 'we only want 5 percent of the West Bank' is hardly a sacrifice for peace. Seeing as in 1948 the land on which is Israel was stolen from the indigenous population, surely the fair debate should be about how much of that land should be returned to the Palestinians.

But that is unacceptable to the poor Israeli's. Oh, how difficult, how distressing it is to be a colonising power. How distressing it is to make the choice not to claim the whole of Gaza and the West Bank. Woe....woe...so terrible to be hated for being a militiary conqueror. Like most militiary powers, you twist the language of victimhood, and make yourselves the victims, although you have the most powerful militiary force in the region, you are occupying another people's land.

If my language was crude, it's because I'm so fed up of arguing the obvious time and time again. It amazes me how people can twist things so black is white and up is down. Wrong is right!!! Birds live at the bottom of the sea!!!

Hitler also used the language of victimhood to advance his plans. In his myth the Aryan people were being persecuted by the evil Jews. You can see from the foul nazi propoganda in the holocaust museums how the nazi's saw themselves as victims.

Remember this. All tyrants view themselves as misunderstood and persecuted. Only forgiveness and love can break these barriers, and I am as guilty as you in that I lose patience and call you a plonker, and see you as part of some evil militaristic nationalistic force, in the same way you view the islamic fundamentalists you imagine are threatening to destroy you. And perhaps you view me as part of those same dark forces.

But what I want is for the Jews to live in that land, in dignity and peace, enjoying and living their own unique cultural experience. And what I want is for the Palestinians to live in that land, in dignity and peace, enjoying and living their own unique cultural experience. I want the two to live in that land together as equals and brothers. But racial nationalism pursues a policy of 'OK, perhaps we can make the sacrifice of living together, but we are the boss, and you are subservient'. And when that 'sacrifice' is rejected, those who wanted to claim supremacy claim they are being victimised. Until one day the shoe is on the other foot. Perhaps in 100 years, the Arabs will have conquered Israel, and the cycle will repeat itself, except the other way around.

Seriously, you don't have to be part of that mentality of fear and militarism. You are not persecuted. You are a free human being. The only chains that bind you are in your mind.

chaim gave some facts about jews being killed but you have to come back with the same left wing crap that you people always do and what the hell are you on about indigneous population, give me the name of 1 only 1 palestinian king,prime minister, presidant, currancy anything with 60 70 80 100 years of palestinian life in gaza and judea and samaria(west bank to you tossers) show me the history of the palesinians please because i cant find any.
Its our land we are the righful indigenous population there has been jewish presence in gaza and judea bebron for 4000 years.
i want the arabs out of gaza and judea and samaria back to syria jordan ,just get the hell out and stop killing the jews.

"There was a secular Palestinian leadership with whom to make peace" - Arafat - are you serious! He was incapable of telling the truth - he deceived Rabin, the Jewish people and his people. He was a murdering swine and may he rot in hell.


"Seeing as in 1948 the land on which is Israel was stolen from the indigenous population, surely the fair debate should be about how much of that land should be returned to the Palestinians."

Actually it was the land of the Jewish people 1000 years before the Romans arrived and before Palestinians existed - so if you want to argue about who was there first....

"How distressing it is to make the choice not to claim the whole of Gaza and the West Bank."

- Israel tried to return Gaza to the Egyptians when they made peace with Sadat. THe Egyptians refused it as they wanted the Sinai but not Gaza.

"Woe....woe...so terrible to be hated for being a militiary conqueror. Like most militiary powers, you twist the language of victimhood, and make yourselves the victims, although you have the most powerful militiary force in the region, you are occupying another people's land."

- Well if Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Egypt and a dozen supporting forces had not tried to once again 'push us into the sea' in 1967, they would not have lost the land from which they mounted so many attacks against civilians and depoloyed their military. Israel is one sixth of one percent of the size of the Middle East. A scrap of land promised to a desperate, suffering people where no other nation would take us or had been complicit in thrying to exterminate us.
We have a powerful military because of the attempts to anihilate us, both in Europe and in the Middle East. We would of course prefer to spend our money on healthcare and irradicating poverty but if you had ever bothered to read any Arab literature about Israel, you would find it full of propoganda, hate and calls for our destruction. For the Jews there is nowhere else - but of course Hermes, this is what you want.

"It amazes me how people can twist things"

I accuse you of this and consider you to be a Revisionist.

"Hitler also used the language of victimhood to advance his plans. In his myth the Aryan people were being persecuted by the evil Jews. You can see from the foul nazi propoganda in the holocaust museums how the nazi's saw themselves as victims."

Ah the old loony left trick of comparing the Israeli state to the Nazis...
Of course Israel has killed some 3000 people in the Intifada, mainly men at arms who, if left, would attack Israelis. The Nazis killed 6 million Jews, none of whom were armed - great comparison.
Nazi Germany would be pressed to point to any terror attacks by Jews against civilians and yet almost all Palestinian terror group attacks have been targetted against Jews. The Anti Israel literature talks of Jewish blood libels, conspiracies and calls for our anihilation, just as the Nazis did - ours does not.
Your comparison, apart from being highly insulting, is flawed and baseless and perhaps if you ever witness a bombing or lose someone, you will realise that Jews bleed too.


" Only forgiveness and love can break these barriers"

- Israel has made peace with every neigbour who has sought it. If Arafat genuinely wanted peace, he would have accepted Baraks offer of 97% of the West Bank with a 3% land swap, Gaza and East Jerusalem. You talk of forgiveness, maybe the wrong word, but Israel has relations with Germany now and with Egypt and Jordan. Old enemies and nations who sought to destroy us have become partners in building a better world. With whom can we do this now?

"But what I want is for the Jews to live in that land, in dignity and peace, enjoying and living their own unique cultural experience. And what I want is for the Palestinians to live in that land, in dignity and peace, enjoying and living their own unique cultural experience."

- Israel reached out to all neighbours in the declaration of Independance to make peace. She reached out to the Arabs living at the time in Israel and asked them to remain in their homes. Those who did and who did not fight the Jews now live in peace and security within Israels borders. They have full freedom and citizenship and live in prosperity. They are the most literate of all Arabs and enjoy all the rights of a democracy.


"Perhaps in 100 years, the Arabs will have conquered Israel, and the cycle will repeat itself"

- Yes right - of course that would depend on an Arab nation producing a non corrupt leadership and a competant military. I will not hold my breath.



Also Hermes - I ask you why the left wing raised no criticism of Jordan and Egypt who severely oppressed the Palestinians and occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Jordan killed over 25,000 and Jordan and Egypt had 20 years in which to form a Palestinian State - both refused and the left was silent. No protests outside their Embassies - no calls to boycott their goods and academics. perhaps you can explain this.

Why don't you look up some history, you nob. The province of Palestine was created by the Romans after they destroyed Jerusalem and sold the Jews into slavery, causing the Diaspora. I assume you have heard of this? The people who remained were a mixture of Jews, of Philistines, of various semitic peoples who lived in the area, and of course the Roman rulers. Soon after, the Roman empire became Christian. Then, after a few centuries, the religion of Islam began in Saudi Arabia. The first Caliph conquered Jerusalem peacefully from the Christian rulers.

From that moment on, Jerusalem and the province of Palestine was part of one or another Islamic empire, in which Muslims, Christians and Jews lived together, generally peacefully, well, at least more peacefully than in Christian lands, but with occasional persecutions, and taxes for non-muslims. There were the Crusades, in which the Europeans tried to take the land from the Muslims, and slaughtered Muslim and Jew alike as they defended Jerusalem. But the crusades were beaten. For over one thousand years that land has been populated by people who would call themselves Arab, or at least Muslim, and many of them are descendents of Jews, probably having more Jewish blood in them than many of the current immigrants to Israel from Russia and places.

And these people, who have been there from the beginning, are the Palestinians. So fuck you and your ignorance. Go read a book, instead of burning them.

Hermes - look what Israel has named after you...


The Hermes 450 is a single engine system with advanced composite structure and optimized aerodynamics. Advanced avionics enable autonomous flight and precise GPS navigation. Fully redundant systems significantly increase reliability. Target detection and recognition are performed by gimbaled, electro-optical, state of the art payloads. The UAV is equipped with sophisticated communication systems transferring imagery in real time to ground control stations.
The Hermes 450 is the latest generation and most advanced UAV deployed with the Israel Defense Forces (IDF). Already operational for some time, the 450s have successfully completed acceptance tests and established the highest standards of reliability, availability and maintainability in their class.
The success of the Hermes 450, in anti-terror missions among others, has led to follow-on orders from the Israeli Ministry of Defense.

The Hermes 450 UAV meets intelligence requirements for ground forces, supplying real time battlefield data around the clock. It also assists in locating enemy targets and adjust artillery fire.

Factlist

1. The Israelis have since 1947 continued to expand by stealing more and more Palestinian land and murdering the Palestinian people

2. By doing so the UN has had to draw up resolutions 67 times because Israel keeps ignoring the one before

3. The Palestinians have protested peacefully for decades and Israel has only gone to wreck those protests with violence. Lets not forget how the 1st intifada was destroyed.

4. The decrease in the number of suicide bombing is because the newly elected Palestinian government has managed to negotiate a 'cease fire' with militant organisations in Palestine u fucking dumbass idiots and not because of teh wall.


The wall is only there to provoke, and separate more Palestinians in oorder for some fucking fascist israeli cunts can live comfortably in the land they stole. So fuck off and go get a lesson in History before you talk. Hate breeds hate so dont come crying to the world when all the israeli attrocities backfire at some stage coz frankly we dont give a shit.

I know I am wasting my breath, once again, but I will continue.


- "There was a secular Palestinian leadership with whom to make peace" - Arafat - are you serious! He was incapable of telling the truth - he deceived Rabin, the Jewish people and his people. He was a murdering swine and may he rot in hell.

He himself was deceived, by an Israeli government that said it was going to withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza, and instead took the opportunity during the peace process to steal land and build settlements. How do you justify the policy of provocative settlement building during this time?


Anyway, in case there is any doubt about Israeli intentions, let us here from the horses mouth about the origins of Hamas

 http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=18062002-051845-8272r

'Richard Sale, a UPI Correspondent, wrote an illuminating article on the origin of Hamas in which he pointed out that, "According to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years."

Israel "aided Hamas directly ‑ the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization)," said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies.

Israel's support for Hamas "was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative," said a former senior CIA official.

According to ICT papers, Hamas was legally registered in Israel in 1978 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the movement's spiritual leader, as an Islamic Association with the name of Al-Mujamma al Islami, which widened its base of supporters and sympathizers through religious propaganda and social work.

According to U.S. administration officials, funds for the movement came from the oil-producing states and directly and indirectly from Israel itself. The PLO was secular and leftist and promoted Palestinian nationalism. Hamas wanted to set up a transnational state under the rule of Islam, much like Khomeini's Iran.

"The thinking on the part of some of the right-wing Israeli establishment was that Hamas and the others, if they gained control, would refuse to have any part of the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place," said a U.S. government official who asked not to be named. "Israel would still be the only democracy in the region for the United States to deal with," he said.

According to former State Department counter-terrorism official Larry Johnson, "the Israelis are their own worst enemies when it comes to fighting terrorism. The Israelis are like a guy who sets fire to his hair and then tries to put it out by hitting it with a hammer. They do more to incite and sustain terrorism than curb it," he said." (Published on the June 18, 2002)'


"Actually it was the land of the Jewish people 1000 years before the Romans arrived and before Palestinians existed - so if you want to argue about who was there first.... "

OK, I already dealt with this when I lost my temper with Betar Boy. Yes, Israel was there first. Before them were the Caananites. In fact, during the time of Israel, a great deal of different Semitic peoples lived in that area, and when the Romans expelled the Jews, they didn't...it simply wasn't possible...expel all of them. Many Jews stayed behind, including the Samaritans, who have been in Nablus non-stop for all these thousands of years without break. They also suffer greatly under the Israeli occupation.

Many Jews who stayed behind converted to Christianity and later Islam, because of the tax imposed on 'People of the Book'. So in many cases, you could argue that the Palestinians are descendents of the Jews, as well as a huge amount of different people.

Your argument of a claim of a thousand years is ridiculous. It would be like me returning to Saxony and claiming an Anglo-Saxon homeland. In fact, our exodus from Germany to the British Isles occurred AFTER the expulsion of the Jews from Israel. That's how long ago it was. It is like the celts claiming dominion over England. Or, seeing as we all came out of Africa, why don't we claim our ancestral home there, kick out the Africans who have been there from the start, and make a new nation.

Another point for Betar Boy about his 'name a Palestinian king'. Palestine was a province. There was no king of Palestine, or in fact Jordan or Iraq, until the British divided up the muslim empires and manufactured those kings. In the same way there is no King of Devon. Imagine a foreign people invading England, taking over Devon, and claiming the Devonshire folk don't exist, because they never had a king. Moron.


"Israel tried to return Gaza to the Egyptians when they made peace with Sadat. THe Egyptians refused it as they wanted the Sinai but not Gaza. "

This is what the peace deal actually said

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/middle_east/2001/israel_and_the_palestinians/key_documents/1632849.stm
"Egypt and Israel agree that, in order to ensure a peaceful and orderly transfer of authority, and taking into account the security concerns of all the parties, there should be transitional arrangements for the West Bank and Gaza for a period not exceeding five years. In order to provide full autonomy to the inhabitants, under these arrangements the Israeli military government and its civilian administration will be withdrawn as soon as a self-governing authority has been freely elected by the inhabitants of these areas to replace the existing military government. To negotiate the details of a transitional arrangement, Jordan will be invited to join the negotiations on the basis of this framework. These new arrangements should give due consideration both to the principle of self-government by the inhabitants of these territories and to the legitimate security concerns of the parties involved. "

Yes, so Egypt didn't want Gaza. It wanted the West Bank and Gaza to be self-governed, as did the Palestinians.


"Well if Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Egypt and a dozen supporting forces had not tried to once again 'push us into the sea' in 1967, they would not have lost the land from which they mounted so many attacks against civilians and depoloyed their military. Israel is one sixth of one percent of the size of the Middle East. A scrap of land promised to a desperate, suffering people where no other nation would take us or had been complicit in thrying to exterminate us. "

Yes, you are correct that you were a desperate, suffering people, and the rest of the world acted abysmally. British newspapers spoke out against Jewish immigration into Britain, despite the holocaust. But then, why did the Arabs pay the price of the Europeans crime, and not Germany? Britain had no right to promise the land of the Palestinians to the Jews...it was not their land to promise!!!
Even the Nazis helped the Zionist movement. Look at the Haavarah agreement.

"Even before the conclusion of the
Haavarah Agreement, such "co-operation" sometimes took
bizarre forms. Thus, in early 1933, Baron
Leopold Itz Edler von Mildenstein, a man who a few years
later was to become chief of the Jewish section of the
SD (the Sicherheitsdienst, or security service, the
SS intelligence branch headed by Reinhard Heydrich),
was invited along with his wife to tour Palestine
and to write a series of articles for Goebbels´s
Der Angriff. And so it was that the Mildensteins,
accompanied by Kurt Tuchler, a leading member of the
Berlin Zionist Organisation, and his wife, visited
Jewish settlements in Eretz Israel. The highly
positive articles, entitled "A Nazi Visits Palestine,"
were duly published, and, to mark the occasion, a
special medallion cast, with a swastika on one side
and a Star of David on the other."


Nazism and Zionism are based on the same premise. That Jews and other people are different and cannot live together...they need seperate states. That is a racist ideology. I believe all people can live together in peace. And I believe in a one state solution.

"For the Jews there is nowhere else - but of course Hermes, this is what you want."

No, that is an illusion of your mind. You believe you have to have a seperate state to survive, and to live in this world. You build a wall to keep the rest of the world out. You arm yourself with the strongest militiary and most modern and destructive weapons, including nuclear weapons. In short, you are paranoid. We are human beings, and we are free to do what we want and live as we should. It is our own fear that chains us to nationalism and tribalism, that makes us hate and fear our fellow human beings.

"I accuse you of this and consider you to be a Revisionist. "

Revisionist in what way? In that I challenge the facts you were indoctrinated in by people who have a vested interest in hiding the truth. I challenge you to dispute any fact I have presented.

'Historical revisionism is the reexamination of the accepted "facts" and interpretations of history, with an eye towards updating it with newly discovered, more accurate, and less biased information. Broadly, it is a skeptical approach, that history as it has been traditionally told may not be entirely accurate, and that perhaps an accurate history is as unobtainable as a dispassionate autobiography.'

Ah, perhaps you refer to

'Another usage of the term "historical revisionism" is to refer to attempts to revise history so as to present a more positive image of a previous event or person that is not supported by the true facts. This is basically another form of propaganda. For example, people and groups that claim that the facts generally accepted about the holocaust are grossly inaccurate, such as claiming that no where near six million Jews where killed or that none were gassed, have claimed to be "historical revisionists".'

Well, fuck you then. The Nazis were evil bastards. I've visited Auschwitz and different holocaust memorials in Poland and Jerusalem. I saw the photos of afterwards, leaving on boats to Palestine, humiliated and indignant, bringing with them an anger and a fear, which later would enable them to justify dispossessing another people of their land. Evil perpetuates evil. The abused becomes an abuser.


'Of course Israel has killed some 3000 people in the Intifada, mainly men at arms who, if left, would attack Israelis.'

No, they have mainly killed civilians, if you bother to check the facts, including over 500 children.

'The Nazis killed 6 million Jews, none of whom were armed - great comparison. '

That's about the one point I agree with you on. There is no comparison in scale. At the same time, both Nazism and Zionism are rooted in the same ideology. That different races need different countries. Some races are superior to other races. The national interest of one particular race is more important than the rights of another.

'Nazi Germany would be pressed to point to any terror attacks by Jews against civilians and yet almost all Palestinian terror group attacks have been targetted against Jews. '

Well duh, do you think the Palestinians would target Chinese people? I assume you meant civilians as your last word. Tell me, would it have been wrong for the Jewish people to fight back against the Nazis? Would you have felt comfortable with resistance attacks against the Germans, even attacks that killed civilians? I can't say that in the light of history, I would think badly of the German Jews who resisted.

Of course, the first modern terrorist attack in Palestine was committed by a Zionist organisation, who blew up the King David Hotel.


The Anti Israel literature talks of Jewish blood libels, conspiracies and calls for our anihilation, just as the Nazis did - ours does not.
Your comparison, apart from being highly insulting, is flawed and baseless and perhaps if you ever witness a bombing or lose someone, you will realise that Jews bleed too.

I have seen Zionist propoganda that calls the Arabs dogs, that calls for 'transfer back' to Syria and Jordan. In fact, just listen to little Betar Boy here. Arabs are constantly portrayed in a negative light by Western movies and television, you cannot tell me otherwise. How many films have shown a conspiracy by some Islamic Terrorist Organisation to kill us all? You're indoctrinated with this propoganda and you don't even know it, and the same applies to those poor wretches in Muslim countries who are fed 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' or some other nonsense. The whole point about indoctrination is that you don't even know about it, and you have to look hard inside yourself, about the beliefs you hold simply because someone told you, and check for yourself the truth.
If you ever witnessed an Israeli soldier shooting civilians, or lost a comrade like Tom Hurndall and Rachel Corrie, murdered in cold blood in the Gaza strip, you would realise that the rest of the world bleeds too. We all bleed together. So abandon your nonsense ideology of seperation and distinction. We are all the same.

"Israel has made peace with every neigbour who has sought it. If Arafat genuinely wanted peace, he would have accepted Baraks offer of 97% of the West Bank with a 3% land swap, Gaza and East Jerusalem."

Why did they have to accept the crumbs of a cake that was stolen from them? There was no compromise in this case. Israel's great sacrifice for peace was saying 'OK, we won't take all Gaza and the West Bank away from you, just the bits where we have settlements. It may leave you with a funny looking nation, but that's all we can do'.

Gee, how 'generous' of you. Sorry if I sounded sarcastic there.

You talk of forgiveness, maybe the wrong word, but Israel has relations with Germany now and with Egypt and Jordan. Old enemies and nations who sought to destroy us have become partners in building a better world. With whom can we do this now?

You can do it with the Palestinians, by facing up to the sins of the past, ending the occupation, and making a reconsiliation.

"- Israel reached out to all neighbours in the declaration of Independance to make peace. She reached out to the Arabs living at the time in Israel and asked them to remain in their homes. Those who did and who did not fight the Jews now live in peace and security within Israels borders. They have full freedom and citizenship and live in prosperity. They are the most literate of all Arabs and enjoy all the rights of a democracy. "

OK, that's simply not true.
 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4493525.stm
The BBC article is entitled "Israeli Arabs: 'Unequal citizens' "
The Israeli Arabs are denied equal rights under a variety of different measures, the most significant being
"The Jewish National Fund was the operating and controlling agency of the Land Development Authority and ensured that land once held by Jews-- either individually or by the "sovereign state of the Jewish people"--did not revert to non-Jews. This denied Israel's nonJewish , mostly Arab, population access to about 95 percent of the land."

Israel massacred several villages, the most notorious being Deir Yassin, but there were others.

"Also Hermes - I ask you why the left wing raised no criticism of Jordan and Egypt who severely oppressed the Palestinians and occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Jordan killed over 25,000 and Jordan and Egypt had 20 years in which to form a Palestinian State - both refused and the left was silent. No protests outside their Embassies - no calls to boycott their goods and academics. perhaps you can explain this. "

One, I wasn't alive in that time. Two, the left has consistently been critical of the puppet dictators put in place over the arab world. How do you know there were no protests against Jordan and Egypt in that time? Likely the left was in the same state as it is now...any protest will have been drowned out by the mainstream views. Tell me, was the right protesting Jordans treatment of the Palestinians? Ah, I see, the invasion and occupation of the West Bank was in reality 'liberating' the poor Palestinians. How silly of me.

I don't only protest about Israel and Palestine, but I have a special place in my heart for this issue because I've been there and seen it for myself. Actually, I care more about Latin America, because genuinely progressive movements are beginning here. I get sick of the spiral of conflict in the middle-east...nothing seems to get better, and I just end up bickering with people like you. But, we have to keep fighting this issue, because if people stop telling the truth, then it will get drowned out by people who would rather we forgot the Palestinians ever existed.

So although you made me waste my nice sunny afternoon writing a response to you, I feel obliged to do it by the memories of what I witnessed.

Well then, I'm going to enjoy the rest of the sunshine.

Ah, yes, I'm obviously honored the Israeli's named an instrument of murder after me. I must remember to go home and name the spray I use to kill cockroaches 'Betar Boy'.

....because I'm Welsh. I'm Celtic and a rightful decended of England are the Celts. Go to Denmark, were u belong!"

betar boy, my point is this: If Jews can claim a place they lived in 2,000 years ago as theirs then why only just them? 2,000 years ago, England was inhabited by the Celts who, in the years 400-800 AD, were violently driven from their land by the Anglo-Saxons. The descendents of the Celts are now the Welsh (and some Scots, Irish and Bretond) and the descendents of the Anglo-Saxons are the English. So, using Zionist "logic" the Welsh (and Scots, Irish and Bretons) have every right to come to England, evict the English from their homes and take them over. The Welsh Guards have every right to patrol ancient cities of Celtic significance, such as Oxford, London, Glastonbury, St Albans, etc., shooting those English terrorists who disagree with this. And I could go on. As for the English - well, there are other Germanic states (Germany, Austria, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Holland, arguably France), they can go and move their. Why shouldn't the Welsh have one country of their own when the Germanics have 6 already? The English, using Zionist "logic" have no right to England, even the name should be changed (Lloegyr is the Welsh name for England. It means "the Lost Lands".) They should, perhaps, return to Denmark, where their ancestors came from 1,500 years ago.

I'm English myself, incidentally. I view all of this as being ridiculous. But then the Zionist project is based on this "logic". A Jewish kingdom, independent for less than 2 centuries and existing for only c.750 years in total, last seen 2,000 years ago, does not give present day Jews any right to the land of Palestine, any more than the Welsh have any right to the land of England, even though their ancestors lived there 2,000 years ago. note that the Welsh would at least be expelling the descendents of the people who evicted them 1,500 years ago - in Palestine even that is not the case.

Or how about we ALL go back to Africa.

“decrease in the number of suicide bombing is because the newly elected Palestinian government has managed to negotiate a 'cease fire' with militant organisations in Palestine u fucking dumbass idiots and not because of teh wall.”

No – the fence has stopped the bombers – many have been stopped at checkpoints, including, sickeningly, children.
Suicide bombers regularly try to infiltrate and make the short walk to Jewish areas.
The idea that the fence does not stop attacks is ludicrous


Even the Nazis helped the Zionist movement. Look at the Haavarah agreement.

A myth – as awful as the Protocols. The idea that Jews would co-operate with Nazis is so unbelievable as to be almost risible.
The Jewish brigade of the British Army included many Israeli who were leaders in the Zionist movement and who bravely fought the Nazis.
Ben-Gurion, convinced that the danger of an attack by the Nazis and the Al Husseini militias, organised a ‘last stand’ of the Jewish people – to fight with their backs to the Carmel mountains in Haifa.
The smugglers who tried to bring Jews from the Nazi occupied countries to Israel in the war also smuggled Jews to the UK – and I met a man involved in the operations to do this (he lives on Yagur in Israel).

"For the Jews there is nowhere else - but of course Hermes, this is what you want."

No, that is an illusion of your mind. You believe you have to have a seperate state to survive, and to live in this world

Well time and again, for thousands of years, other nations and races have shown the opposite inclination – why do you not go and rid the world of anti Semitism and then talk to me about living in peace.

The point is, if there was no Israel, Ethiopian Jews would have been forcibly converted, as would Yemenite and Moroccans – The Jews of Russia would have been persecuted for far longer than they were. Israel saved these people and allowed them to continue being Jewish. Are you against such actions?


“'Nazi Germany would be pressed to point to any terror attacks by Jews against civilians and yet almost all Palestinian terror group attacks have been targetted against Jews. '

Well duh, do you think the Palestinians would target Chinese people? I assume you meant civilians as your last word. Tell me, would it have been wrong for the Jewish people to fight back against the Nazis? Would you have felt comfortable with resistance attacks against the Germans, even attacks that killed civilians? I can't say that in the light of history, I would think badly of the German Jews who resisted. “

Jewish resistance in the Holocaust targeted Nazi soldiers not civilians.

”Of course, the first modern terrorist attack in Palestine was committed by a Zionist organisation, who blew up the King David Hotel.”

It was full of occupying British soldiers not civilians – though I condemn this action

“If you ever witnessed an Israeli soldier shooting civilians”

In all my years in Israel, I did not – if I did, he would be arrested and tried and jailed. Do the Arab armies but their soldiers on trial for killing civilians. – Now if you ever witnessed a suicide bombing or buried children – may be you would realise what we face.


"- Israel reached out to all neighbours in the declaration of Independance to make peace. She reached out to the Arabs living at the time in Israel and asked them to remain in their homes. Those who did and who did not fight the Jews now live in peace and security within Israels borders. They have full freedom and citizenship and live in prosperity. They are the most literate of all Arabs and enjoy all the rights of a democracy. "

”OK, that's simply not true.
 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4493525.stm
The BBC article is entitled "Israeli Arabs: 'Unequal citizens' "
The Israeli Arabs are denied equal rights under a variety of different measures, the most significant being
"The Jewish National Fund was the operating and controlling agency of the Land Development Authority and ensured that land once held by Jews-- either individually or by the "sovereign state of the Jewish people"--did not revert to non-Jews. This denied Israel's nonJewish , mostly Arab, population access to about 95 percent of the land."

Yes it is – I have Bedouin, Druze and Israeli Arab friends who are proud to be Israeli and take advantage of the freedoms they are afforded – freedoms which other Arabs in other countries are denied. Do I here you criticise Arab states for their treatment of women, other religions, lack of free press, speech, use of the death penalty.

No – I do not – why?

You compare Zionism to Nazism – as well as being a disgusting insult; there is no basis for this. Zionism is the belief that the Jewish people should have the right to their own land and to determine their own future.

There is nothing in that phrase, so readily expanded and twisted by the likes of you, which suggests bigotry, superiority or a belief in destruction of those who do not fit our racial blueprint. It is a total lie and is typical of a Jew hater (which I assure you, you are, and nothing will convince me otherwise.)

You say that we are indoctrinated – I reverse this and say you are. By a radical left, obsessed with Jews and unable to see or condemn fault in the terrible Arab and communist regimes you uphold.

Nice to see the anti Israel groups at the Ireland Israel match wearing Palestinian flags, giving Nazi salutes and shouting Seig Heil.

True colours

Nice to see that the normal Zionist Trolls are out, to defend the illegal occupation of Palestine by Israel!

It almost as if they see the word "Palestine" or "Israel", they have to read and comment on it!

YAWN!