Palestine Action Workhop next Monday - Brighton

the wall must fall | 08.02.2005 18:44 | Anti-militarism | London | South Coast

Monday Febuary 14th - Palestine Action Workshop. 7.30pm at the Clermont Room, Brighthelm Centre, North Road, Brighton.

Palestine Action Workshops are convened by B&H Palestine Solidarity Campaign so that people can come together to discuss action in solidarity with Palestine. Previous actions to come out of the Palestine Action Workshop have been Marks and Spencers pickets and actions against Caterpillar.

the wall must fall
e-mail: www.brightonpalestinecampaign.org

Comments

Hide the following 47 comments

I'll be there

08.02.2005 19:17

The Israeli / Palestine Peace process must be defeated.

Hamas and Islamic Jihad must know they have our support in their heroic actions to defeat the Jews.

Billy

Billy you're such a twat

08.02.2005 22:01

You just don't get it at all do you.

Listen to you. Is that REALLY what you think we think?

The relationship between Palestine and Israel is one which is TOTALLY UNEQUAL and OPPRESSIVE. Israel is a RICH COUNTRY which is SUPPORTED HEAVILY by the USA, the world's RICHEST COUNTRY. Palestinians live under seige. The KAFKA-ESQUE BUREAUCRACY imposed on them totally stifles and strangles ALL ASPECTS OF THEIR LIVES. They live lives not only of squallor and but of constrainment and strangulation. It's almost as if they can't breathe. You can't just get on with your life in Palestine. What happens if there's an arbitrary curfew and you haven't managed to stock up on food? What happens if you're a student and you can't get to university or even school because of all the checkpoints.

How many Palestinian kids have been SHOT BY ISRAELI SOLDIERS?? How often do Ambulances get shot at? Look at the death toll in the whole conflict. Palestians have suffered WAY MORE CASUALTIES which obliterates the myth that the major victims are the Israelis who die in suicide attacks.

Of course suicide bombing is fucked up and immoral. I don't support that method of resistance for one second. But let's have some perspective here. WHICH SIDE IS DYING MORE, and which side is the least able to get on with everyday life?

And which side has to put up with people having their homes bulldozed down. Where the fuck are you supposed to go if your house has been bulldozed down.

As far as "defeating the Jews" is concerned, why do you even bother employing rhetoric like that. Why do you even come to this website to wind good compassionate people up - if you want to debate with us then fair enough but don't bother with your stupid unintelligent remarks which serve no other purpose than to make you look like an ignorant fool.

Do you REALLY think "defeating the Jews" is what we're all about?????????

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Twat.

We (the Left, including the anarchist Left) were the ones demanding that we allow in Jewish asylum seekers during the second world war, when you lot and your fascist Daily Mail insisted on keeping them out lest they pollute our Britishness. And on you continue today, insisting on limits to immigration.

The suffering and death in the Holocaust was appalling, but today in Israel the situation is one where unfortunately, it is the Israelis (or rather their state and their military and right wing opinion within the country) who are the oppressors and human rights abusers. I do not believe the situation can compare with the holocaust although comparisons with Apartheid are not far off, a view shared by Nelson Mandela. A holocaust it is not but it is certainly unfair and unequal, the way the Palestinians are suffering under the illegal occupation of Israel.

Do you REALLY think that we support Palestinian liberation because we have some secret hidden anti-Jewish agenda? Do you REALLY think that?

I don't think you've EVER really taken the trouble to understand what the Palestine solidary movement is all about. You just assume we're a bunch of Nazis. Because obviously the Left has a long shameful record of supporting Nazism. (NOT.)

Do feel free to engage in a debate with us but if you're going to erect straw men like that then I assure you you're wasting our time and your own. Are you up for engaging intellectually with REAL ideological adversaries or do you just want to carry on making up imaginary ones and attacking them instead of us. Because I've certainly never met anyone who holds the views that you kid yourself that we supposedly hold.

As for wrecking the peace process, the orginal article did not suggest anything of the sort. But you have to understand that with a change of government policy (IF that does happen) there will not be an overnight change in the whole systems of injustice that exist. Look at Afghanistan - oh look we bombed them into oblivion and in the process freed Afghan women from the shackles of the Burqa (no thanks to western governments including the US and UK who diplomatically supported the coming to power of the Taliban in the first place!)... so aren't those women lucky... NO, because they STILL have to wewar the Burqa. The LAW may have changed, but the culture does not shift so quickly. The system of patriarchy once esconced (is that a word?) in law is now firmly entrenched in the culture of the country and doesn't look like changing any time soon. Quick fixes don't work.

So two things to say about the peace process - One: Whatever changes the Israeli government makes, it will take a very long time for this to filter down to REAL improvements in the lives of Palestinian people and therefore their plight does not disappear overnight by the wave of a magic wand as you might naively and thoughtlessly expect it to.

And secondly, any peace arrangement will probably be hugely BIASSED in favour of the economic and political interests of ISRAEL at the expense of Palestinians, simply because Israel is by far the more powerful country and therefore brings to the negotiating table FAR more bargaining power.

But I don't supposed you've taken a single word of all that in, because you're still living in your fantasy land where global justice activists are secretly in league with the BNP and the rich country supported and armed to the teeth by the USA is a poor helpless little victim, trying in vain to defend itself from those big bad powerful Arabs.

DUDE. What fucking planet are you living on?????????

angry

Billy, Billy, Billy.

08.02.2005 23:25

Billy, Billy, Billy!

WTF are you on? That is the most blattent anti-semitic thing i've seen on the since J&P's views on a Jewish MP who is against the Aparthied Wall that Israel is building!

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/manchester/2005/01/304225.html

like Angry above has said is that to support the Palestinian people is not to do with wanting to kill Jews or Anti-Semetic. The Palestinians have been having land stolen from them before the creation of the Zionist State. They suffer on a daily basis! Do you REALLY THINK the Palestinian want to attack Israel and kill Israelis? Do think they want to have to fight?

Your just like the BNP, a fucking racist!
IN FACT i would be suprised if you WERE BNP!

If fact, if things go like they have on Manchester IMC, we going to have a LONG list of replies!

Billy, YOUR A TWAT! A BIG FUCKING TWAT!

E,NP&A (manchester)

Interesting but predictable

09.02.2005 08:18

It looks as though Billy has rather let the cat out of the back doesn't it ? The panic reaction from the next two responders with their well rehearsed responses of, "No, No, it's not a Jewish thing" are so tranparent as to be laughable.

It may well be that there are those whose interest in Palestine and Israel is out of a real concern for the people in the area but I'm sorry to say that the majority I have spoken to and met with who campaign on this issue are nasty little Jew haters who will take the side of just about anyone who feels like they do.

I have no intention of defending the State of Israel which disgusts me with much of its policies and actions but at the same time to deny that much of the opposition to it is simly anti Jewish in its basis belies the truth.

Even the new Palestinian leader recognised this with his post election speach that called for an end to Conflict Tourism and requested that those from the US and Europe with a political agenda stay away from the area and allow Israel and the Palestinians to reach an agreement themselves. Recent progress wich has required courage on both sides will I hope to lead long term peace.

Too those who have have sought the overthrow of a Jewish state just because it's a Jewish state remember that Israel has a long memory.

Londonder

Re: Londoner

09.02.2005 14:34

Who are you to tell me that my agenda is that of a "secret Jew hater"? I am nothing of the sort.

To hear you say it is "transparent" that that is what I am is to me LAUGHABLE, because I know my motives and I can honestly say with my hand on my heart and swearing on my life and my family's lives, that you are the WORST mind reader I have ever come across.

Perhaps you would care to let state what exactly it is about my post that you believe is so "transparently" anti-semitic.

One more time, HOW DIFFICULT can it really be for you to get your ahead around the fact that someone can oppose the way Israel is treating the Palestinians WITHOUT being "anti-Jewish".

Like I say, it is people like us who wanted to welcome Jewish asylum seekers during the second world war, while people like you wanted to keep them out. Now that the Right Wing has finally seen the truth of the horror of the holocaust SO long after the rest of us had been condemning it, they can't get their head around the idea that it is NOT anti-semitic to condemn the anti-Palestinian policies and actions of Israel.

I have to say I am VERY offended that on the basis of reading a single piece of my writing, you feel confident and able to say that you know you me personally well enough to make the judgement that I do not like Jewish people. Like I say, I have no problem with Jewish people at all and I challenge you to find any evidence to back up your claim - and please observe that my sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians does NOT constitute anti-semitism.

Please give me a SINGLE piece of evidence that we are anti-semitic. And the fact that we are angry to be acccused of it is NOT evidence. For if I accused YOU of being anti-semitic you'd be angry, so it is to be expected that I would be angry when you accuse me.

Your claim is a VERY serious allegation and one I will not take lightly. I would ask you therefore to either provide some serious evidence (which I know you are not able to do because there IS NO evidence) or to retract your allegation fully and without reservation.

Needless to say, I don't expect you to listen to a single word I've said. People like you never do.

still angry

And another thing

09.02.2005 14:45

So the new Palestinian leader wants to put a stop to "conflict tourism".

Is that the International Solidarity Movement he is referring to?

These are people who deliver food and medical supplies where the United Nations fears to tread.

These are people who help students get past abitrary checkpoints so that they can actually get to school and university.

Some of these brave volunteers have even stood in front of bulldozers to prevent people's homes from being destroyed.

Soldiers are a lot less likely to shoot indiscriminately at civilians when there are international volunteers present (especially volunteers with video cameras).

When a big guy is beating up a little guy, to stick up for the little guy is not 'none of our business' and it is not 'unfairly taking sides'. Rather it is a moral duty.

But ISM isn't about taking up arms. It's about helping people get on with their everyday lives as best as they can under such a state of seige.

Whatshisname may not appreciate the help of what he cynically calls 'tourists' but a lot of ordinary Palestinians do. Do not assume that the view of the leader represents the will of the people. Look at trade union leaders for example - they're always playing the role of appeasing business and the government and resisting any attempt at grass roots level to campaign for more radical equality. Well it's the same with leaders of national liberation movements or any other struggles against oppression when the organisation is done in a centralised hierarchical manner.

anti-authoritarian.

More than happy

09.02.2005 16:04

I am more than happy to defend my position.

The anti-Jewish feeling I see within the writing of both the above posters is an example of the unconsious, unrecognised Jewish hatred seen in many; who like you take an interest in the Israeli / Palestinian conflict. Rather like those members of the Police who have until recently been unable to recognise their own racism when dealing with black, asian and arab members of society you have a problem that requires education to help you recognise it. To deny these feelings (and express anger that their recognition by others) is understandable but still they must be confronted.

The response concerning Conflict Tourists and the mention of the ISM also requires comment. The ISM in my experience (and yes I have been to both Israel, the OT and other surrounding countries) have caused enourmous problems in establishing a long term peace, they have a clear political agenda which seeks to destablise the region with a hope of establishing a left of centre political system embracing Arab nationalism. The Soviets were working toward the same thing throughout the 1960's 70's and 80's. The Palestinian council, now free of Arafat, recognises that their future lies with US and EU supported free market capitalism and as such reject ISM. Thise who support ISM will of course find themselves unable to admit this political reality so seek to deny it, prefering to try and shift attention onto the myth of ISM 'Good Works' - as you have done.

Londoner

...

09.02.2005 16:19

I'm against the racist policies of the BNP. That obviously makes me a hater of white people. I'm against the destruction of the environment by human greed. That obviously means I hate humans. I'm against the sexual exploitation of women. That obviously means I hate men. Therefore, it stands to reason that if I'm against the oppression of the Palestinians, I hate Jews. OBVIOUSLY.

Actually, the rhetoric is the same as fascist groups the world over. If you don't support the cruel, oppressive action they're taking, you obviously hate them, and you're unpatriotic.

Not wanting my country to commit murder does not make me unpatriotic. Not wanting the Israelis to murder and steal the land of the Palestinians does not make me anti-semitic. Someone who truly loves his brother does not sit by and let him do whatever the hell he wants.

Hermes

ISM comment

09.02.2005 17:39

The work of the ISM is without merit and I am surprised it gets any support. An ever rotating production line of gap year activists, heads filled with with a biased view of the conflict and its history all spending a few months in Palestine so they can tell their mates about it when they get back.

The idea that these people are supported by the wider Palestinian population is laughable and even the leadership who to be blunt will accept support from just about any quarter has wished them away.

Alawi made his feeling clear on what he called Conflict Tourists within 24 hours of taking power. Perhaps because his comments were made only to Arab newspapers (no I can't be bothered to list the link - go look it up !) it is not surprising they haven't received wider coverage.

The problems of the regime will (and it seems are) being solved by Arab and Jew working together, not by 19 year Rupert in his designer trainers and Nike shirt who arrives to,

" . . like, work with the oppressed Palestinian people man"

Dave

Re: Londoner again, and Dave

09.02.2005 21:55

Londoner, you're STILL not providing a shred of evidence to back up your claims. You are merely expressing your own prejudice. It may LOOK to YOU like we dislike Jewish people, but you have said nothing to explain why this appears to be true to you.

You say "The anti-Jewish feeling I see within the writing of both the above posters is an example of..."

WHERE?

**WHERE** do you see "anti-Jewish feeling"?

Which sentences indicate anti-Jewish feeling?

You are free to SPECULATE that anti-Jewish feeling may be behind my words (you'd be wrong though). But can you provde any evidence that that is the case? No, because there isn't any.

The thing is, you have already made up your mind that people who stand up for the rights of Palestinians don't really care about Palestinians but just want an excuse to condemn the Jewish people, their race and their religion.

But, like I say, you're WRONG. Because I have no problem with the Jewish people or their race or their religion. MY PROBLEM is with the way this particular GOVERNMENT and ARMY is illegally occupying the land of the Palestinians and destroying their economy and ability to have any semblence of a normal life.

WHY do you not believe us. You do not have to share our analysis of the conflict, but I don't see why you can't accept our motives, and why you have to ascribe to us hidden right wing motives, when we're all clearly a bunch of anarchists and other lefties and who are bitterly opposed to racism of any sort.

As for the comments about the ISM, you say you are suprised that they have any support. Well they DO have support. So the fact that you are surprised implies you've made some sort of miscalculation somewhere. In other words don't fully understand the ISM and / or the situation they're involved in. So that puts YOU at fault there.

You don't have to on balance support the ISM, but to suggest they have nothing going for them at all is incredibly one sided. They deliver food and medical supplies where the United Nations does not feel able to go. That suggests bravery to me. And what about that girl who died because she refused to get out of the way of a bulldozer which was demolishing a Palestinian house. You may think that was the house of a terrorist but you don't know that. Rachel Corrie (I think that was her name) just thought it was entirely unjust that these civilians were having their houses bulldozed down and she felt strongly enough about that to risk her life over the matter. And yet you dismiss all that and insist that these are just a bunch of spoilt kids looking for a bit of excitement and trying to be cool. And as for the "Nike shirts and designer trainers", I'd imagine most ISM volunteers are the kind of people who boycott Nike and Gap and all the rest of those sweatshop labour produced goods.

Do you KNOW any ISM people? Well I do and you're depiction of them reaks of cynicism and ignorance to my ears.

Oh I'll be grown up here and admit that it's probably the case that SOME people who go are partly in it for a sense of adventure and because they think it's quite a funky groovy thing to do for a young Che Guevara wannabe. But that doesn't mean that they're not simultaneously strong believers in human rights and the struggle against oppression and injustice. One can believe in something and enjoy it at the same time.

Having said that, all the ISM people I've met couldn't give a shit about "being cool", and they're not GAP year students either but university age or older.

Why not meet some ISM people and actually talk to them and make your own mind up rather than clinging to your cynical prejudices about these people you know almost nothing about.

I once asked Mika Minio Paluelo (www.notesfrompalestine.net) who I was at uni with and who believes passionately in the cause of a free Palestine and has been dedicating most of his life to it in the last few years, I once asked him "Do the people like having international solidarity volunteers there?" and he said that they like the people who are serious about it but not the "human rights volunteers".

So I guess the reality is that some people are a bit more like the way you have described and others are not like that. It's wrong to paint them all the same, there are lots of different people who go out there - they're not exactly one homogenous grouping.

Once again, the fact that the Palestinian leader does not support the ISM people does not surprise me because, as I said before, leaders often shy away from any sort of radicalism. And by radicalism I do not mean violence - ISM do not promote violence but they do support the cause of a Palestinian state in which the Palestinians would get a fair deal, which the less radical campaigners seem willing to sacrifice. Like I say, compare the way The Labour Party always felt embarrassed and threatened by the more radical elements within their ranks (and I'm not just talking about the communists). But I digress...

I laugh when you condemn the ISM for having a secret agenda to destabilise the region with a left of centre government and then go on to insist that "FREE MARKET CAPITALISM" is the only way forward. Don't you see that makes YOU, as a free market fundamentalist every bit as ideological as those who are against this style of economics.

It's also a gross simplification to suggest that we (and by "we" I mean the global justice movement in general) have a secret agenda to impose leftism on the world. Yes we are left wing (and increasinly in a non-hierarhical anti-authoritarian way!) but this is no coincidence and is entirely natural: we believe in fairness and justice and equality and human rights and environmental sustainability and solidarity and society and citizenship. That's why we (broadly "we" but obviously I can't speak for everyone) support the Palestinians (and for that matter the Kurds and the West Papuans and the Tibetans and the indigenous people in Chiapas and so on) and it's also why we have an analysis of free market capitalism that is deeply critical of this system.

Nobody who is concerned about a group of people can fail to have an opinion about what would be the best style of government. To me it's only logical to expect that people who like to stick up for the underdog do not want to promote the interests of the rich corporations and the power of money. Yes, that's ideological but it is no less ideological than your position of fostering the kind of free market capitalism that is increasingly being imposed on the world by the likes of the IMF, World Bank and WTO.

What I'm absolutely sure ISM people do NOT do is turn up and say to people "we'll help you but only if you agree to support our left wing politics". If you think they're like Christian missionaries who go to impoverished places and hand out food to people on the condition that they also accept a bible, you're totally wrong.

In summary, my MAIN point was that it's totally unfair to suggest that ISM has nothing positive going for it. They do a LOT of very brave things to help people. You MAY argue that this is only half of the story (in which case go on then...) but to suggest ISM does nothing good at all is woefully inaccurate.

Finally I really WOULD love it if you provide even a single piece of evidence to back up your judgements of those who support the Palestinian struggle. Because so far, all I have heard are your speculative, prejudiced and UNSUBSTANTIATED opinions.

angry again

"Conflict Tourists" - from myth to reality

10.02.2005 00:08

This "conflict tourist" story began with a link to a non-existent page on a Yemeni website..... now its being quoted as gospel.

Dave, your brother Rupert with his Nike shirt and designer trainers, just happens at 19 to be the same age as the Israeli soldier with his Nike shirt and designer trainers. Ha ha!!

And the "anti-Jewish" thing you're banging on about, you've invented and embroidered like crazy to push that one. We can all see the posts that you're referring to, thats why you had to invent and embroider the story about "unconsious, unrecognised Jewish hatred". Just like Itamar Marcus invents and embroiders his stories. Just like the story about "Conflict Tourists" is being manufactured right before our very eyes - inventing and embroidering at its best.

If you insist on hanging around crazy lefty sites, I think you should read some crazy lefty articles.

Heres one that explains your position very clearly. Oh, and I don't think you're a separatist feminist if that helps......

http://tinyurl.com/6d3g7

Enjoy.

ftp

Betar in Brighton????

10.02.2005 00:51

Londoner is a Zionist from Betar.

Betar is a Zionist organisation based in London.

http://www.betar.org.uk

Betar are Racists
Betar supports the killing of innocent Palestinians by the IDF
Betar supports the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian off of Palestinian Land
Betar wants a Greater Israel

and to quote one from a betar member "End the Arab Occupation of Jewish Land"

The Real Terrorists are Bush, Blair and Sharon

English, Not Proud & Still Angry

Hi ftp & Hermes

10.02.2005 00:59

Hi ftp & Hermes

nice to see that you are here to help defend support for palestine here!

E,NP&SA

Why Zionism today is the real enemy of the Jews

10.02.2005 01:23

Why Zionism today is the real enemy of the Jews
Avi Shlaim, The Electronic Intifada, 4 February 2005

Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish people and the state of Israel is its political expression. Israel used to be a symbol of freedom and a source of pride for the Jews of the Diaspora. Israel's mistreatment of the Palestinians, however, has turned it into a liability and a moral burden for the liberal segment of the Jewish community. Some Jews, especially on the left, would go even further by linking Israel's behavior to the upsurge of the new anti-Semitism throughout the world.

Israel's illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories since 1967 is the underlying problem. Occupation transformed the Zionist movement from a legitimate national liberation movement for the Jews into a colonial power and an oppressor of the Palestinians.

By Zionism today I mean the ideological, ultra-nationalist settlers and their supporters in the Likud-led government. These settlers are a tiny minority but they maintain a stranglehold over the Israeli political system. They represent the unacceptable face of Zionism. Zionism does not equal racism, but many of these hard-line settlers and their leaders are blatant racists. Their extremism and their excesses have led some people to start questioning not just the Zionist colonial project beyond the 1967 borders but also the legitimacy of the state of Israel within those borders. And it is these settlers who also endanger the safety and well-being of Jews everywhere.

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon personifies this xenophobic, exclusive, aggressive and expansionist brand of Zionism. One of the greatest accolades in Judaism is to be a rodef shalom, a seeker of peace. Sharon is not that by any stretch of the imagination. He is a man of war and the champion of violent solutions.

Sharon's purpose is politicide: to deny the Palestinians any independent political existence in Palestine. His plan for withdrawal from Gaza is called "the unilateral disengagement plan." It is not a peace plan but a prelude to the annexation of large chunks of the West Bank to Israel. Sharon, the unilateralist par excellence, is a Jewish Rambo - the antithesis of the traditional Jewish values of truth, justice and tolerance.

Sharon's government is waging a savage war against the Palestinian people. Its policies include the confiscation of land; the demolition of houses; the uprooting of trees; curfews, roadblocks and 736 checkpoints that inflict horrendous hardships; the systematic abuse of Palestinian human rights; and the building of the illegal wall on West Bank, a wall that is as much about land-grabbing as it is about security.

It is this brand of cruel Zionism that is the real enemy of what remains of liberal Israel and of the Jews outside Israel. It is the enemy because it fuels the flames of virulent and sometimes violent anti-Semitism. Israel's policies are the cause; hatred of Israel and anti-Semitism are the consequences.

There has been much talk in recent years about "the new anti-Semitism." The argument, in a nutshell, is that the resurgence of anti-Semitism has little or nothing to do with Israel's behavior. Anti-Zionism is merely a surrogate, so the argument runs, for bad, old-fashioned anti-Semitism.

These arguments need to be addressed. First: What is anti-Semitism? Isaiah Berlin defined an anti-Semite as "someone who hates Jews more than is strictly necessary!" This mischievous definition has the merit of applying to all anti-Semitism, old as well as new.

But we need to look beyond the labels. Is there a lot of classic anti-Semitism about? Yes. Is anti-Semitism spreading in Europe? Yes, at an alarming rate. Do some people use anti-Zionism as a respectable cover for their despicable Judeophobia? Alas, yes again. What is the relative weight of hatred of Israel on the one hand and Judeophobia on the other in the making of the new anti-Semitism? I don't know.

What I do know is that a lot of decent people, without any anti-Semitic baggage, are furious with Israel because of its oppression of the Palestinians. There is simply no getting away from the fact that attitudes toward Israel are changing as a result of its own shift towards the Zionism of the extreme right and of the radical rabbis. During the years of the Oslo peace process, Israel was in fact the favorite of the West because it was willing to withdraw from the occupied territories.

Israel's image today is negative not because it is a Jewish state but because it habitually transgresses the norms of acceptable international behavior. Indeed, Israel is increasingly perceived as a rogue state, as an international pariah, and as a threat to world peace.

This perception of Israel is a major factor in the recent resurgence of anti-Semitism in Europe and in the rest of the world. In this sense, Zionism today is the real enemy of the Jews. It is a tragedy that a state that was built as a haven for the Jewish people after the Holocaust is now one of the least safe places on earth for Jews to live in. Israel ought to withdraw from the occupied territories not as a favor to the Palestinians but as a favor to itself and to world Jewry for, as Karl Marx noted, a people that oppresses another cannot itself remain free.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article3599.shtml

anon...

Yawn

10.02.2005 10:14

So once again we see the same old tired attempt to portray all those who support Israel as Zionist.

I object to suicide bombers - you're a Zionist
I support the right of Israel to exist - you're a Zionist
I discuss the damage done to innocent Israeli families - you're a Zionist

The level of anti Jewish feeling within what is now called the Activist community never ceases to disgust me.

What a joke

Couple of things:

10.02.2005 12:01

1) Are you not a zionist?

2) Are all Jews zionists?

3) Can you find a reputable source for the "Conflict Tourist" quote? Cos it sure would undermine my whole argument if you could......

ftp

Go back to sleep

10.02.2005 13:30

There should definately be an israel. Why didnt they take a chunk out of england and give them their land there? why not out of the USA? why did they have to send 750,000 palestinians out of their homes to give them that land? what is it the promised land? If ur stupid enough to believe that then thats tough. U want a country settle with what we give you. But the palestinians were considered less of a human then the english or the americans so when england gave the jews israel it decided it wouldnt matter leaving palestinians in the streets. Everyone knows what happened in later year, the bastards kept on taking and taking from teh palestinians and we kept on watching them do it. As for the first guys comment about suporting the militant side of Hammas. I dont believe it does any good to the palestinian cause but uve got to remember that the first suicide bomber struck in 1997. 50 years after the beginning of the opression of palestinians by israelis and generally the western world. Before that there were 2 intifadas and 50 years of oppression, murder, and constant stealing of their land in order to reach this stage. Extreme circumstances result in extreme acts and none of us who sit comfortably in our chairs have the right to criticise them for their actions. Thyve been crying out to us for over half a century...we didnt hear them. Its them against the world so no one has the right to criticise their actions. But again icant see any good coming out of the situation like that but unless we can reach out and help them fulfil their just cause in a peaceful way... we cant criticise them at all. And dont forget, If Nazi Germany had invaded (NAZI) England and was constanltly killing english people including women and children, and after 50 years of that a number of english people started blowing htemselves up in Germany, i dont thing anyone would blame them for that. Yawn youre obviously tired go back to sleep and visit koo koo land in your dreams where the state of Israel is a country trying to live in peace but is not allowed to by the bad palestinians. Ur prob one of those ppl who believes that 'terrorists' do what they do because they hate our way of life. Yea thats it theyre educated to believe that the so called freedom we have is bad and they must kill themselves to stop it.....Dumbass

anti-yawn

Conflict Tourist

10.02.2005 13:33

Conflict Tourist are a well known problem and yes the Palestinian council did call for them to leave.

http://www.madison-rafah.org/

http://www.eurozine.com/article/2004-08-12-pullan-en.html

ex -ISM

"Conflict Tourism"

10.02.2005 14:37

Neither link says that Abu Mazen called for Internationals to stop coming......

The dispute isn't about whether the term exists, its about the specious claim that there was a call for Internationals not to go to Palestine.......

*sigh*

ftp

ftp, can i answer point 2 PLEASE

10.02.2005 14:46

To answer point 2, Not all Jews are zionists, all thou not all zionists are jewish!

What a Joke - let me get this right, those that support the Palestinians are Anti-Jewish? So not to be anti-jewish, all we have to do is not support the Palestinians, and let people forget about with is happening, and let Israel terrorise Palestines. By letting people forget about Palestine this will let Israel Ethnically Cleanse the West Bank and Gaza of Palestinians and have a Greater Israel. A Greater Israel is the dreams and ideology of Zionism!

Thanks to Billy (you fool, i've calmed down btw), this is turning into the Manchester ICM regarding support for Palestine. ftp and Hermes should know what i mean.

Anti-Yawn - Not all Jews argee would agree your comment "There should definately be an israel.". - Got to www.nkuk.org - This is just simple based upon religous beliefs, and they are most definatly not Self Hating Jews. btw, i am NOT JEWISH!

e,np&less angry

Doh !

10.02.2005 14:53

ER I'm not sure how much easier I can make this for you. Even a simple search with any of the big engines shows up numerous references to the event, the speech, the comments being reported by Arab TV etc.

I suppose if you don't want to see then the evidence just isn't there.

ex ISM

Re: Conflict Tourist

10.02.2005 17:32

"Ex-IMC", I couldn't find anything in those two links about the Palestinian Council asking the internationals to leave.

One of the links you post does have a reference to "Conflict Tourism" but with a rather different meaning. It says:

"The Hebrew and English graffiti reveals it as a podium for Israeli viewpoints, pro and con, object of an internal "conflict tourism". A colleague tells me that on bringing a (rare) mixed group of Israeli and Palestinian university students to the site, the shamed Israelis cautiously examined whilst the Palestinians quickly posed together for photos, defiant, with fingers in "V" formation."

I'll believe you though. So, the Palestinian Council has asked for internationals to leave. Why? Does it see them as a liablity? Does it see them as embarrassment as far as negotiating with the Israeli government is concerned? The Israeli government is FURIOUS that internationals come and stand in solidarity with Palestine. So perhaps the leadership of the Palestinian council would feel awkward to be seen to be publicly supporting them.

Perhaps the Palestinian council doesn't approve of people taking things into their own hands like this. Governing bodies don't generally approve of DIY initiatives. Leave it to the experts, leave it to the official authorities - that's the usual ideology.

I'm looking forward to being an ISM volunteer. And as (pretty much) an anarchist, if there are Palestinians who want international solidairty then I'm happy to say I have no qualms about the fact that this bureaucratic quasi-governmental institution does not support what the ISM does. As long as the people on the ground I'll be with are keen for me to be there then that's enough for me.

pre-ISM

pre ISM !!!!

10.02.2005 17:58

As it seems that Israel and the Palestinians are currently solving their problems WITHOUT the involvement of organisation like the ISM I wonder what you will do. Perhaps you could travel to Zimbabwe and let those people have the benefits of your skills or maybe Burma where people are being oppressed every day, then again there's the areas in Indonesia.

O no wait of course one problem with all those parts of the world = NO JEWS !

Jonathan

From Across The Pond

10.02.2005 18:07

It is disturbing to see that the same "dialogue" regarding the Palestine/Israel conflict also obtains in the UK. One cannot be sympathetic to the Palestinian cause without also being branded an "anti-Semite." It is a Zionist's tactic of last resort to play the anti-semitism card whenever the flimsiness of his/her argument is exposed. Ironically, thanks to the free flow of ideas and opinions on the internet, denied in the mainstream media both in the US and the UK, the speciousness of this tactic is becoming all too apparent and Zionists can no longer get away with using it with impunity.

Bottom line: Jews are not necessarily Zionists and vice versa. What people who support the Palestinian cause abhor is Zionism. If they also happen to hate Jews, they are anti-Semites. But, to conflate the two in argument is a quickly-becoming-threadbare tactic that no longer carries any moral or rational weight.

Roland

??? i dont understand

10.02.2005 19:13

Sorry i vaent read all the comments

I dont understand how someone who doesetn seem to have spoken to many anti-zionist actavists can make such a comment on who we are.

When i find out about a conflict or injustice i ask what it has happened and is happening. and decide what stance to take from a compasionate point of view.

so i choose palistine,

my viwes have my been covered so i wont repete

"ex ISM"

10.02.2005 20:03

"ER I'm not sure how much easier I can make this for you. Even a simple search with any of the big engines shows up numerous references to the event, the speech, the comments being reported by Arab TV etc.

I suppose if you don't want to see then the evidence just isn't there. "

I've done some extensive googling - and the only time I've seen a link was when a non-functioning link was posted up on this very site. It pointed to a Yemeni website. Why Abu Mazen would tell Yemenis that he doesn't want Internationals is beyond me....

If you want me to see the evidence post the link.

That will completely undermine my argument that this is invention and embroidery carried out by the zionist trolls, and an alleged "ex ISMer" ......

"As it seems that Israel and the Palestinians are currently solving their problems WITHOUT the involvement of organisation like the ISM I wonder what you will do."

Yeah, yeah - its all sweetness and light in the land of Palestine. Israel is prepared to make serious "sacrifices" and withdraw from the territories, and create a fully independent contiguous Palestinian state on 1967 borders, with East Jerusalem as capital and the right of return adequately addressed.

Right?

BOLLOCKS .... no way is the occupier ready to ready to do anything near to addressing the historical injustices ...... and, to the best of my knowledge, the West Bank and Gaza are crawling with armed Israeli soldiers......

" Perhaps you could travel to Zimbabwe and let those people have the benefits of your skills or maybe Burma where people are being oppressed every day, then again there's the areas in Indonesia."

You sure do a shit line in arguments. This one goes like this, ignore the nastiness committed by the US funded Israel and focus on the ones that Israelis think you should sort out.

Is Zimbabwe under military occupation?

Hows about Indonesia?

Burma is, but its occupier isn't a well funded US client state that claims to be the Middle Easts only democracy. And to be frank, we aint got a snowballs hope of convincing other oppressive regimes to behave whilst our own oppressive regimes make a mockery of terms like "freedom" and "democracy"

Roland

I suspect a number of the zionist trolls here hail from your side of the pond. Anyway, the hasbarah is international and the tired old tactic is a knee jerk response on their part.

Painting it as "unconscious, unrecognised" anti-Jewishness is taking it to a new level though.....

ftp

I'm Familiar With It

10.02.2005 20:59

Yes, ftp, not only are we anti-zionists anti-semites, we are also racists, and are acting out this racist trait in our unconscious, knee-jerk reactions to all of the inferior races, including those "nasty" Jews. In effect, we are the Nazis, the BAD guys, and the Zionists are the GOOD guys. It is clumsy sophistry, at best.

Roland

Fairly irrelevant comment, but curious...

10.02.2005 21:10

'Thanks to Billy (you fool, i've calmed down btw), this is turning into the Manchester ICM regarding support for Palestine. ftp and Hermes should know what i mean.'

Haha, you've got me curious now, because I don't know who you or ftp could be. Though you know I'm in Venezuela at the moment, and I'm thinking of moving here permanently. You can possibly reveal your secret identity to me if you see me back in England.

Maybe it's something about Manchester having been the birthplace of zionism. Do you think all the zionist trolls are from Manchester as well? We could all be the same folk who argue with each other on the street...

Regarding the ISM...my experience within it is that people were appreciative that we were there. But I think they were frustrated that we couldn't do more. The ISM does good work, but it's really a drop on what is a raging inferno. I think it's most valuable role is in educating the people who go, so that they can return to their country and tell the people the truth. I think that most of the dedicated activists are the people who have gone and seen the truth for themselves.
I don't think I would be spending so much time typing, and arguing with Betar, and thinking about the issue, if I hadn't been affected by the injustice I saw there.

I think in that regard, that is the ISM's primary role, and the role it has played has been to shift public opinion and attention to the plight of the Palestinians, where there was little media attention and discussion before. With regards to what they actually accomplish in Palestine itself...it is little. How much CAN we do? And when we're new to that region, how effective can we be? Good work has been done, observing human rights situations at check-points, helping with the olive harvest, escorting ambulances and medical personnel. And the Palestinians told me they felt good that they weren't alone, that people were looking out for them. But it is a tiny drop on the flames. The best work is being done by Palestinians themselves. Our role is not to supercede that, but to play our part in putting international pressure on Israel.

And you can see there is a deep respect in the street for Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurndall. That is something very deep and very sad.

So, I wouldn't pay much attention to some random article posted from an obscure Yemenise website, by someone who has probably never been to the West Bank and talked to the Palestinians about it. He is conjuring up an illusion of what he would like to be, ie a division between the Palestinians and their international support. Perhaps in a mirror image of what we are accomplishing, ie a division between the Sharon regime and the international community.

Hermes

Manchester Marks And Spencer

10.02.2005 23:12

Hermes, I only know you throught your excellent arguments with are "friends" such as Jewish and Proud, as well as ftp (free the peeps, personally fuck the police is better!), when regarding Israel/Palestine. These always are under the M&S picket related topics. It is on Manchester IndyMedia, need i remind you. I've never seen you in person an known it was you.

J&P is one of the regular Zionist that come down to the M&S Picket. Despite the use of different alisas i DOUBT that it is they are the zionist from Manchester. Probably Betar, but i again could be wrong.

Hope that your enjoying your stay in Venezuela.

Feel free to email if you so wish!

hasta la victoria siempre

E,NP and Calm
mail e-mail: big_bms2000@yahoo.co.uk

re: Jonathan

11.02.2005 17:59

You say:

"As it seems that Israel and the Palestinians are currently solving their problems WITHOUT the involvement of organisation like the ISM I wonder what you will do."

What will I do?

Hmm, let me think. Observe human rights situations at checkpoints (soldiers are better behaved when internationals are observing, especially if we have cameras. Negotiating passage through checkpoints for people who need to get to school / college. Delivering food and medical supplies to those who are under curfew or blocked by checkpoints. Trying to prevent soldiers from bulldozing down innocent people's houses. Taking pictures of the occupied territories so that people back home can see the conditions of squallor forced on these people by the Israeli state. Offering company and solidarity to people who feel they are under seige.

In other words, business as usual.

You think the "offer" made by the Israeli government will do anything NEAR enough to remove the injustice suffered daily by the Palestinians? Even if you do do that you think such changes would take place over night?

Palestinians STILL need our international support. VERY little has changed on the ground, and it looks like things are staying that way for the moment.

I'm not going to Burma. I don't fancy spending many years in a Burmese prison. I'd probably be shot in Zimabwe. I'd probably be imprisoned by the Chinese if I volunteered my solidarity in Tibet.

"Oh but there are no Jews in those places". Sorry but for the last time can't you please get it into your thick head that Judaeism has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. We criticise Israel's behaviour in Palestine - that must be because Israel is Jewish? No, sorry, that doesn't follow. You are free to wrongly suspect that anti-semitism is our motive, and that all our arguments about the plight of the Palestinians (which you deride but totally fail to logically engage with) are insincere and made up to cover our supposed real motives. You are free to suspect that, if you want. But to be SO SURE you would need at least a shred of *evidence* and some logic that makes sense. You have provided neither of these. How can you be so sure that we are anti-semitic if you have no evidence at all? Please try to disengage your rational mind from your personal prejudices. You can keep your conspiracy theory world, in which left wing activists are secretly right wing extremists, but I don't buy it.

I've got a good mind to start playing your game by accusing you of being racist against Arabs. Think it's ridiculous to suggest you're racist against Arabs? Well I'm only using exactly the same false logic that you use to suggest that we're racist against Jewish people.

PS You have no idea how ironic it sounds to hear you calling me anti-semitic and to sound so certain that you are correct when I, who have priveleged access to the contents of my own mind, can see how far off the mark you are. You guys really are the worst mind-readers ever.

pre-ISM again

doh!

11.02.2005 18:08

correction:

"I once asked him "Do the people like having international solidarity volunteers there?" and he said that they like the people who are serious about it but not the "human rights volunteers"."

What I meant to say was:

...but not the "human rights tourists".

me again

doh!

11.02.2005 18:08

me again

No

11.02.2005 18:52

"Sorry but for the last time can't you please get it into your thick head that Judaeism has NOTHING TO DO WITH IT"

No because I don't believe you. I'll be more blunt. I think you are a liar. I will continue to show up people like you who attempt to hide their clear hatred of Jews with phony talk of Zionism and the Israeli policies toward the Palestinians. I have the time and rescourses to monitor you and those like you.

For some the events of 60 years ago are like yesterday. NEVER AGAIN.

Your filthy bigotry will not be hidden by attempts at deception.

Remember the Holocaust

And,.The 'Monitor' Will Also Be Monitored

11.02.2005 20:42

You better "...have the time and rescourses(sic) to monitor..." the "Jew-haters" of your warped imagination, "Remember the Holocaust," because you're going to be one busy apologist. So, bone up on your ad hominem attacks and sophistical arguments in preparation for your crushing defeat under the weight of our righteous indignation at the appalling treatment of the Palestinian people by the renegade Zionist regime holding all of the peace-loving people of Israel - Jews and Arabs alike - hostage. Every time you rear your mendacious head, we'll be there to challenge you. Make no mistake, we are your worst nightmare.

Kubernetes

You are nothing

11.02.2005 21:11

You are nothing, we have a free democratic country. You have only your filthy minds and your hatred.

God will judge you

Jew

Remember the Holocaust

11.02.2005 22:20

Remember the Holocaust

You can attack us, we will fight back
You can kill us, we will kill you

6 million dead, we remember everyone.

Remember the Holocaust

Remember the Holocaust

Become A Martyr

11.02.2005 22:35

"I'm not going to Burma. I don't fancy spending many years in a Burmese prison. I'd probably be shot in Zimabwe. I'd probably be imprisoned by the Chinese if I volunteered my solidarity in Tibet."

So, your motives for supporting "palestinians" is a selfish one...You know that israel is a democracy and in the majority of cases will treat you fairly.. The worst that will happen is that you will be deported.
Hey, here's an idea, a great way to support the palestinians....Go to Gaza and protest against Hamas, photograph them when they're getting ready yo attack some israeli kids...ride an Israeli school bus too! When you see a suicide bomber, tell him you're an "international", and killing kids only prolongs the bloody war and really doesn't serve the cause of peace...(What's that you say? if you tried to stop a Hamas peace Activist from blowing up kids he would kill you? If you rode an israeli school bus and a suicide bomber boarded, he would blow you up along with the kids? Well, then instead of calling yourself an "international", your friends could then call you a Martyr...)

Ali

Lest WE Forget

12.02.2005 01:01

Despite your name-calling and empty posturing, the Zionists' crimes against humanity are becoming all too obvious to an ever-growing world audience.

Aleph

Defending Israel terrorism is OK, to support the Palestinians is racist???

12.02.2005 01:37

the reason people say that claim that to support for Palestine is racist is for 2 simple reasons!

1: they are racist themselves and support Israeli terrorism (yes, Israel is a terrorist state, i'll get to that later) and want the truth hidden about Israel!

2: they are paranoid (for good reasons, sadly) and believe that the Palestinains want to kill all Israelis.

OK more info!

1. those that support Israel, are NORMALLY Zionists (those that believe in the creation of a Jewish state in Palestine [the WHOLE of Palestine], and have as a secular pure state). Zionist tend to attact any one or group of people who support the palestinian cause! It's like say that when people protested against South African Aparthied, they where racist against white people! Well, a fact about Israel and South Africa! ISRAEL SUPPORTED SOUTH AFRICAN APARTHIED! They are also will also openly use Anti-Semitism to justify what Israel is doing. They will personally attack any Anti-Zionist Jew who openly supports the Palestinians. Done in public or not, it does happen, it is a FACT!

2. the paraniod members of the jewish community believe that anyone who is against israel wants all Jews killed! this is farther from the truth. The vast majority are not anti-semitic. Sady they are fucking twats like Billy, who damages a cause that supports an oppressed terrorised people! Billy, your a racist fucking twat who has succesfully defenced the Zionist reational! TWAT!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Israel = TERRORISTS

Palestinians = RESISTANCE

TERRORISM

n : the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear

RESISTANCE

n.

1. The act or an instance of resisting or the capacity to resist.
2. A force that tends to oppose or retard motion.
3. often Resistance An underground organization engaged in a struggle for national liberation in a country under military or totalitarian occupation.

Israel is NOT OCCUPIDED therefore is using violence or threat of violence to intimindate Palestinians to stop they resistance to the Militart Occupation.

English, Not Proud and P`ED OFF

Rubbish

12.02.2005 08:21

"those that support Israel, are NORMALLY Zionists"

So every US administation since FDR has been Zionist has it ?

I know it helps the anti semite cause to try and label us Zionist but get real.

Jon

You can't just go calling people a liar, with no evidence at all.

12.02.2005 13:15

"Remember the Holocaust" said:

No because I don't believe you. I'll be more blunt. I think you are a liar. I will continue to show up people like you who attempt to hide their clear hatred of Jews with phony talk of Zionism and the Israeli policies toward the Palestinians. I have the time and rescourses to monitor you and those like you.

For some the events of 60 years ago are like yesterday. NEVER AGAIN.

Your filthy bigotry will not be hidden by attempts at deception.
Remember the Holocaust

--

You say you will "continue to show up people like you who attempt to hide their clear hatred of Jews".

"Continue"??

How are you "showing me up"? How have you demonstrated my supposed hatred of Jewish people? You have not provided a single scrap of evidence. NAME CALLING does not "show people up". Instead of engaging with our arguements about how injustice is imposed on the Palestinians, you ignore all that and simply call us anti-Semitic. You claim it is clear and self-evident. HOW?? It may look obvious to you, from your prejudiced point of view, you who have already made up your mind that all those who support the right for Palestinians not to live under seige are necessarily anti-Semitic racists, but if you want to convince anyone at all you must provide evidence for your opinions about us.

Look at you, you're a raving conspiracy theorist - so everything we ever say in defence of the Palestinians is merely a cunning ploy to deceive people and to pretend that we are not anti-Jewish??? What planet are you living on? Your claim is far-fetched to say the least. Provide evidence or withdraw your accusation. Accusation without evidence is way out of line. I could say you've raped your grandmother and go around telling everyone that you do it everyday, but my accusation would be completely without basis, completely without basis and therefore unethical and libellous. How is your accusation of our supposed anti-Semitism any different? I repeat, WITHOUT EVIDENCE you have no justification to level these highly offensive charges at us. I therefore ask you to stop.

You don't know me at all, you have no idea who I am, and yet you feel you know me personally well enough to judge that I have this secret hidden motive for sticking up for the underdog.

Am I racist against Turks because I support a free Kurdistan?

Am I racist against Indonesians because I support a free West Papua?

Am I racist against Americans because I opposed the war in Iraq?

Am I racist against the Chinese because I support a free Tibet?

Am I racist against the Burmese because I a support a free Burma?

That last one just shows you the stupidity of this kind of logic. People like you could argue (if you needed to) that because I oppose the opporessive Burmese government (like I oppose the oppressive Israeli government).

And don't go talking to me about my use of the word "Zionist". This is not a word I use. I don't know what it means. Is a Zionist someone who believes in the right for Israel to exist? Then I am a Zionist. Is a Zionist someone who believes the Palestinians must be crushed? Then I am not. But this word confuses me so I do not use it.

Why do people always conflate governments / armies with the population of a country? According to you, I don't like the Israeli government and military, therefore I hate the Israeli people and indeed Jews??? WHAT?? I'm sorry but what kind of WAPRED TWISTED LOGIC is that??????

It seems I can't win with you because whatever point I put to you you just say you don't believe me and that I'm a filthy biggot. But like I say, you really need to back up such serious charges as that. And yet you fail, once again, to provide a single scarp of evidence to support your prejudiced opinion. Nothing I have said indicates any kind of racism at all. Yet you cling to this belief that I must be secretly racist and that this is "clear". Evidence for that please?

Finally now, what is all this talk of monitoring my activities?

What activities? Debating on political websites? Going to protests against climate change and war and summits of world leaders, and picketing shareholders meetings of multinational companies that make weapons or use sweatshop labour? Writing letters to my MP? And possibly going to stay with a Palestinian family at some point? And you're going to monitor that. Um... ok.

again

Israel's "Democracy"

12.02.2005 14:07

Go to mossawacenter.org/en/report/2003/11/031116.html for an indepth report describing the conditions under which non-Jewish "citizens" of israel live. Israel's "democracy" is a sham for 19% of its population. Who can dispute the facts given in this report, which come from the various ministries of the Israeli government, without merely resorting to gratuitous ad hominem attacks and outright lies, the usual modus operandi of Zionist apologists?

Roland

Don't worry about Billy

12.02.2005 17:42

To me it looks pretty obvious that Billy is to be one of these right wing nutters and that he was either being sarcastic, or trying to make us look bad by pretending to be one of us while also pretending to be racist.

pre-ISM

Israel is a Democracy

12.02.2005 17:46

"Israel's "democracy" is a sham"

The very fact that there are groups within Israel that can organize and take a stand against government policies (without the risk of being rounded up and eliminated) is proof that Israel is a democracy. Can you imagine such a group in ANY moslem nation?
Can you name one nation in the middle east that allows palestinians to vote? I can---Israel
Can you name one nation in the middle east that allows palestinins to be represented in parliament? Same answer, Israel,,,
What would happen (and has happened) tf citizens of Lebanon stood up against Syrian occupation...Why, nothing less then massacre. Could you imagine a Buddhist group organizing in Saudi Arabia? Of course not...
Regarding the PA...it's still illegal to sell property to a Jew (not a "zionist", bur ANY jew)...penalty is death. Same is true in Jordan.
Syria has brutally occupied Lebanon for 30 years. Why don't "internationals" enter Lebanon and Syria to support those oppressed? Two reasons: the "internationals" support National Socialism and there aren't any Jews involved.

Ali

Ali, listen to me, ok?

12.02.2005 23:33

""Syria has brutally occupied Lebanon for 30 years. Why don't "internationals" enter Lebanon and Syria to support those oppressed? Two reasons: the "internationals" support National Socialism and there aren't any Jews involved.""

Ali, you're doing it again, you're making WILD accusations with no basis in reality and with not a single shred of evidencen to back up your claim.

We support National Socialism? What the fuck???????

Now you're telling me, you're seriously trying to tell me that the international volunteers in Palestine are there because they support the policies of Hitler's government. You SERIOUSLY think those are motives? How many of us have you actually bothered to talk to for more than 5 minutes? What makes you think you know us so well that you can be so sure that we support what you call "national socialism"??? You are entirely 100% deluded if that's why you think people like us go to Palestine.

There are various reasons why we are not going to Arabic countries to protest against their human rights abuses. One such reason is that we would be shot. Does that make us selfish because we don't want to be shot? Oh how fucking selfish of us. I suppose you'd be happy to let people shoot you? No? Well exactly then, my point proven. Solidarity with persecuted people in ultra-authoritarian regimes is not feasible. Even if we were brave enough to go there and be shot, there'd be no point because we can't really do very much if we're dead. I can't believe I'm even entering into this discussion.

Now you're partially right about Israel being a democracy. You point to the (limited) rights that Palestinians DO have and somehow try to insinuate that they have equal rights ansd that they are totally unoppressed and that the Israeli government and military are not doing anything to harm Palestinians and that the Palestinians are not suffering but are imagining it and that we therefore have no reason to go there.

Can you not see the flaws in this logic? I certainly can. Yes, Israel is a "democracy" but in the real world, like all so-called democracies, it has a considerable democratic deficit particularly when it comes to the rights of Palestinians. Are your SERIOUSLY suggesting that because Palestinians have some of the same rights as Israelis they therefore have EQUAL rights? That doesn't follow at all.

And formal political rights are only the tip of the iceberg. What about economic prospects. And what about the stifling Kafka-esque bureaucracy that inhibits every aspect of Palestinian life. These people are forced to live in squallor and are unable to get on with their everyday lives - in a way that does not apply to Israelis. They may live in fear of their lives but at least they can get on with their lives, at least they aren't physically prevented from getting to work, school, university or food shops by arbitrary curfews and checkpoints.

You can point to all the Israelis who have died in suicide attacks (which I do NOT support) but MANY MORE Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli soldiers.

Brutal force is used against by this RICH country armed to the teeth by the Americans, against these helpless impoverished people. People's houses are being bulldozed down on a regular basis - these people then have nowhere to go. Israel is illegally occupying the West Bank and Gaza in the first place.

ALL OF THIS IS **COMPLETELY** UNFAIR AND IS THIS IS THE REASON WHY INTERNATIONALS GO TO PALESTINE.

But in your world, all these things we say about Palestinians we're just making up to help us conceal our real reason - that we hate the Jews. Yeah, sure we do mate, in your weird warped twisted fantasy world, but if it's REALITY you're interested in then you have to understand just how far off the mark you are.

WHY WOULD I HATE JEWS??? Why would I have any reason to hate Jews. I might as well accuse you of hating Bosnians. "Why would I hate Bosnians" you might think - WELL EXACTLY.

Is it really beyond you to imagine that people might sympathise with the situation the Palestinians are in and that they might do this for reasons other than your wild fantasy that we are all supposedly closet-nazis.

People do go to other places. People go to Venezuela to support the revolution of Hugo Chavez. People go to Chiapas, Mexico, to support the Zapatistas (autonomous movement of indigenous people), people go to other places too but there aren't that many places where it's possibly to do solidarity work without being locked up or killed. And I repeat it's not cowardly to avoid being locked up or killed - it's just plain common sense and it's common sense that I dare say you yourself follow.

Now back on the subject of nazi-sympathisers. If you know anything about right wing extremists in this country you'll know they are found in groups like the BNP and the National Front. These are right wing nutters. WE on the other hand are socialists, anarchists, environmentalists, hippies and so on. THEY don't mix with us, and WE don't mix with them. If you know anything about the left and the right in this country then you've got to have a pretty vivid imagination to think that someone who hates Jews and worships Hitler would avoid the British National Party and the National Front and instead hang out with a bunch of organic fair-trade coffee drinking, Nike-boycotting, pacifists and be part of that whole scene. If you think the left and the far left are secretly a bunch of right wing extremists then how can you not call yourself a conspiracy theorist, because that's got to be one of the wildest conspiracy theories I've ever heard.

As has been said already it was OUR movement during the second world war who argued that Jewish asylum seekers should be allowed into the country. So how you can call us anti-Jewish is beyond me.

What is it that you think we don't like about Jews? I can give you MANY reasons why we don't like the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AND MILITARY and indeed I have given many reasons already. But I can't think of a single reason why I would be against the Jewish race.

Again, you keep levelling these enormously offensive accusations against us and without providing a single scrap of evidence. You just ASSUME that we have those weird fucked up secret hidden motives that you ascribe to us. You don't tell us WHERE you get those assumptions from and you provide NO EVIDENCE.

Think about it, PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE think about it - you are UTTERLY MISTAKEN and you do not provide any convincing argument that backs up your mistaken views (which isn't surprising considering the fact that they are mistaken!).

Why not just consider the possiblity, entertain the thought in your head that actually we're doing this because we feel that the situation being suffered by the Palestinians is unfair.

Israel was set up as a response to the horrific repression of the Jews in the second world war and indeed through much of history. But now Israel has become a state that oppresses Palestinians. It would be WRONG to say that the opressed have become the oppressors; that would not be at all accurate BECAUSE it is not Jewish people in general, or indeed Israeli people in general who are committing these atrocities - it is the right wing Israeli government and the aggressive Israeli Defence Force. It is THESE organisations against which we take a stand, and against the views held by SOME in the Israeli population that the Palestinians must be crushed. All of this is what we against - NOT the Jewish people. I repeat we are NOT against the Jewish people.

What confuses me is that you can be so sure of your false belief that are are anti-Jewish, even though you have evidence at all - you have no reason to believe what you do. You assume it to be true because cannot imagine anyone having any reason to criticise Israel other than a racist reason. But how many times do we have to explain to you the plight of the Palestianians and our sympathy for them.

If you don't believe this you have to have a reason for not believing this, and articulate this reason. Otherwise you're just engaging in pointless name calling with no basis in reality.

I don't expect you to engage with any of the points I've tried to raise here because I'm sure you'll just call me a racist and a biggot instead. Yeah mate, that secret invisible hidden racism and biggotry that only YOU can see. That's right. Obviously.

"Chyaa and like, monkey's might fly out of my butt"

Sad

14.02.2005 19:37

You just don't see it do you ?

Having read you piece I realise you don't recognise your own prejudice.

Get some help

So very sad

To Complain about Israel is Anti Semtic?????

15.02.2005 00:34

fao of "so very sad"

Let me get this right, it is OK NOT to critise Israel?

It is NOT OK to to critise Israel?

To support the Palestinians is WRONG?

Ever heard the story about the boy who cried who?

BYe

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