UK Indymedia | Update (Ukraine)

cleaves | 12.12.2004 16:34 | Analysis | Liverpool | London

The observations and re-actions of various ‘experts’ to events in the Ukraine amuse some analysts. Did anyone expect the US not to intervene, do leopards change their spots? Have we all forgotten that the US government is merely a pawn of Corporate Capitalism? If it wasn’t an orange scarf it may just as well have been pink – let’s not miss the ‘forest for the trees’ (and in some cases the veins of the leaves.)

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evidence

12.12.2004 20:15

of US intervention [as opposed to Russian intervention]?

sceptic

OIL.

13.12.2004 09:29

Checkout the nearby presence of pipelines carrying oil from the Caspian Sea, and proposed oil pipelines, and you might find a reason for this sudden interest in Ukraine on the part of our imperialist masters.

http://members.tripod.com/~KELSAGHIR/Caspian/index#GEOPOLIT

"Democracy is just another way of controlling and exploiting people".

Doug

fools

13.12.2004 14:38

God Doug, why could Russia and the West be interested in the Ukraine? Is it because it connects Russia with the Black Sea? That Russia's fleet is docked there? No, its because of oil, obviously...

And sceptic there is far more evidence of Western intervention than Russian. EU officials went out to the protests and openly said they were with the "forces of democracy". And contrary to constant reports, Putin did not congratulate Yankyovic (or whatever) on victory, he congratulated him on the basis of opinion polls suggesting he would win. And unreported in the Western media is the vote rigging in Western Ukraine, the similarly unbelievably high scores (96%, etc) in the West as in the East, the "opposition"'s connections with anti-semitic and neo-Nazi nationalists, the economic success of the current president, the fact that the "pro-Russian" has troops in Iraq and the "opposition" wants them pulled out, the fact that the former wants to pass more power to parliament and the later does not, the fact that Yushenko is simply an oligarch just like the others, etc.

OIL

13.12.2004 15:18

oil does seem to be the clinching argument for anything on Indymedia, from Darfur to the Ukraine.

Be nice to see some evidence, however.

sceptic

It's so temting to simplify

13.12.2004 15:56

Probably you've been there, j, as well as all those people who talk about "crowds" from Western Ukraine, shouting "sessesionist" slogans from "anti-semitic" times (as it appeared somewhere in previous articles' comments).

The only threat of a split is created by the presidential loyalists - governors at the East of Ukraine, as well as the image of such a "threat" - which is hugely exploited by the Western media.

I'm afraid to disappoint you, but Putin indeed DID great Yanukovych with victory - TWICE. And Russia was involved in the elections and post-electoral process heavily and, sometimes, quite brutally. The difference from opposition is that the latter relied on people while the former - on repressive government forces.

And on oligarchs - don't tell me you don't know that pro-presidential side aquired the major steel and coal assets of Ukraine, and some people around Yuschenko are just kids comparing to that (others - including himself - can not be called "oligarchs at all"). If you don't - why are you making arrogant comments?

And on EU representatives - it has been already seen how they were helping the outgoing president in bargaining with opposition and disempowering people on the streets of Ukrainian cities. It's a shame to call the protesters "been supported by EU" after that.

Etc., etc. It's not about supporting Yuschenko - just don't blind yourself. The "left" in the West are used to oppose everything in any way supported by imperial US power - for some reason disregarding that having imperial Russian power is not better. Or do you prefer Putin to Bush? Chechnya to Iraq? Everyday police terror and xenophobia to Patriot Act?

Think critical - on all fronts, not just one.

Gaston
Homepage: http://www.zaraz.org

..

13.12.2004 19:14

Yuschenko is a banker whose associates embelzed millions, and who allegedly did himself. He is a former prime minister of Kumcha's. Yanukovych has exactly the same kind of connections.

All these election monitors, human rights ppl, opposition protestors, etc are funded by the West, paid by them, etc. In exchange, Russia financed some exit polls. Western-funded exit polls showed Yuschenko was gonna win, Russia-funded that Yanukovych was gonna win. We only heard about the former tho. And if we are to believe exit polls, Kerry won the US election!

The opposition has connections with anti-semitic nationalists and neo-Nazi paramilitary thugs, that is a documented fact. I'm not saying all the protestors are nazis or anti-semites, as they aren't, but they are a tainted opposition, not all lovely democratic revolutionaries as the media would have you believe.

In western Ukraine all the local authorities etc are on Yuschenko's side. Vice versa in the east. Didn't you hear all those western local and regional governments declaring their loyalty to Yuschenko? And those army officers, police cadets, etc all "spontenously" declaring their allegiance, and coming out in singing parades, waving their arms and smiling nice lovely smiles for the camera?

And you really think this is "people power"? Spontaneous rock concerts, protests fed with free food, drink and tents, etc? All spontenously created by the "people"? Get real, this has been prepared.

The threat of a split is from the east. They see what is unfolded is a coup by the side that lost, when their side won, and they don't accept that. Neither do they want to be taken away from Russia and into the Western orbit, as they enjoy their close relations with the Russians. And a split seems very unlikely anyway.

And in Chechnya don't believe the usual crap about self-determination, the underdog, etc, its a lot more complicated than that. And Russian imperial power is a joke. What did Russia do about the coup etc in Georgia? What's it doing about the new education law in Latvia? What did it do when it had a basis of peace talks with Yugoslavia in 1999 and then NATO bombed anyway? Turning around the plane from the US is hardly fighting for Russian imperial power against NATO.

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evidence

OIL.

fools

OIL

It's so temting to simplify

..

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