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Resfest : Year Of the Documentary
Intro: This morning's panel discussion is hosted by Jess Search from Shooting People, welcome Jess and welcome panel. Everyone have a good time.



JESS Hello I just want to introduce my panel. Tom Grievson from Metrodome, Jule Hartung from Metro Tartan and Hugh Spearing from Optimum

What we're going to do is first have a general discussion on the panel about the state of documentaries in the cinema and what's going on. Then were going to move on and each of them are going to talk about one film specifically and how that film came around; how the marketing campaign was devised and then what happened to it in terms of its success. We'll finish up by grilling them on how they choose the documentaries that are going to be in the cinema in the future and how you (if there are directors out there) should think about ideas that will work in the cinema, how they reach a distributor if you think you've got a really great film in production that you think should be distributed.

Just quickly who's a director here? Producer? Any journalists? Who are the other people that are here? Oh students. Good well now you know who your audience is.

So Tom, what's going on? What the hell is going on? Where did this trend start. Everyone has been reading articles like me, in the paper about the incredible re emergence of documentaries in the cinema. When did this trend actually start?

TOM I think it was probably with Buena Vista Social Club. I think that was the first kind of break out documentary in 1999.

JESS is that because of what it took at the box office or is that because that was a proposition that people thought was going to be very small but turned out to be quite huge.

TOM it think it kind of fits in with the trend as a feel good documentary. You watched it and you came out and you were really happy from seeing it and I think that promoted a lot of word of mouth on it. Instead of it being a documentary that went into the cinema and grossed £100k or something like that, it went on to make a million. It gave it legs.

JESS So is feel good a big part of it? Because a lot of the other documentaries that seem to be very successful are.

TOM I think there is a trend with documentaries in England, feel good documentaries are up there. Jule's Etre Et Avoir, we did Spellbound that was a feel good one, Buena Vista Social Club. All feel good. What do you think Jule?

JULE I think I agree because if you look at this list its pretty obvious that there's a few new political documentaries like Bowling for Columbine. But that was fun to watch. Its got to have a cinema experience that you feel entertained as well.

JESS In fact your list is quite a useful one. It might be worth sharing this list with people. The top ten documentaries in the UK. I'll do them from 10 up to 1 like a proper countdown.

Coming in at number

10 Spellbound.
9 When we were Kings.
8 Etre Et Avoir,
7 Supersize Me,
6 Buena Vista Social Club.
5 Truth or Dare In Bed with Madonna.
4 Bowling for Columbine,
3 Ghosts of the Abyss,
2 Touching the Void and no prizes for guessing the number
1 Fahrenheit 9/11 by quite a large margin.

So yes. Are they feel good? Hugh do you think that's been the revolution. That's been the reason why people are going to the cinema?

HUGH I think that's been part of it but I think that talking about Buena Vista Social Club as well it had a named director behind it which actually made it a lot easier to get people's attention. I think that's the case with several documentaries that you'll find in that list and further down the list. If you have a named director that's making a story that they feel very passionate about then that helps break through a lot of the initial barriers that you might find in terms of going to film festivals, getting sales and also distributing because the name is there already. I agree definitely with Tom in that it (Buena Vista) was a feel good documentary. It was about something that a lot of people didn't know about and surprised everybody and that doesn't happen very often. I think that the other part of it is that it came from a named director and it played in festivals round the world and won lots of prizes as well. They had a CD to market with it and the musicians who travelled round the world with it as well. So that was a big phenomenon all over the world.

JESS We haven't been very good at 'Growing' named directors out of documentary. I mean Nick Broomfield, previous to Michael Moore's emergence, is about the only documentary filmmaker whose name my mum would know. Obviously I work in documentaries so I consider a lot of directors to be big stars but we haven't been very good at growing people with a star ability to open a documentary in the way that fiction has.

HUGH I'd agree with that, especially in America. A lot of people who make documentaries suddenly find themselves starting to make fictional features as well so they don't actually stay with what they're doing. I think there are people out there who do regularly make documentaries its just that they don't always capture that one moment and I think that talking about successful documentaries, they just seem to capture a moment and take off.

TOM I think that it seems that documentaries are capturing society more generally. Like In Bed with Madonna in 1991. That was the most successful documentary for 8 years. That was when Madonna was really hot and everyone wanted to listen to Madonna. Now I think we're in an age where it's a lot more political. A lot of people are getting annoyed with how things are going and a lot people making documentaries to have a voice. Michael Moore did that, Morgan Spurlock with Supersize Me and then we're doing the Corporation. It seems like this year is the year of the documentary; more specifically it seems like the year of the political documentary. Where you get people who are trying to get messages out and using documentaries as the medium to communicate that.

JULE I'd like to add that I think another reason for the resurgence of documentaries on the big screen is because maybe its got something to do with 9/11 and that people are more aware of things. Also Hollywood is kind of running out of ideas and that people realise that real stories are even more or can be much more moving and spectacular than something that's been created in fiction.

JESS I was recently talking with the film guy at the ford foundation that I met in New York last week. I asked him that same question; why does he think that documentaries have hit the cinema in the way that they have. He put it down solely to 9/11. That that was the one event that made people realise that the world was more difficult and complex that they thought it was. At the same time they realised that their television was much more shit than they ever realised. The conjunction of those two things opened up the market. Is that true? What's interesting is that the documentary trend seems to have been international. It's not just in America and England and 9/11 probably explains a lot about America. Can it explain also why British audiences are prepared to not sit at home and watch TV but actually go to the cinema and pay good money.

TOM There's lots stigma attached to documentaries that, if you said you were going to watch a documentary in the cinema you'd be going to a really small cinema, it would only be one print and it wouldn't be released in a lot of cinemas. Society generally has more acceptance of documentaries and I think that the same people are tired of all the shit that comes out of Hollywood. It (documentary) looks like a bit more real to kind of get their teeth into. Documentaries certainly present that.

HUGH I think that certain distributors seem to have more confidence releasing documentaries on a slightly bigger scale as a result of quite successful ones particularly things like touching the void and Bowling for Columbine and now with things like Supersize Me and Corporation. People have more confidence to actually spend the money to put them out. Whereas before I don't think that existed.

TOM Its still kind of proportionally compared to feature films like Bowling for Columbine was only released on 28 prints. There were only 28 cinemas showing it when it opened, then it expanded. But that's still small. For an average film I'm not sure what it would be on a release but I'm sure it would be a lot more that that.

HUGH 250 300

JESS What if we compare it with something like Donnie Darko, which was also a Metrodome film? Which is probably more comparative perhaps than a Hollywood blockbuster that obviously doesn't bear that many similarities or attract the same audience. How would the number of screens and the money put behind it compare; with some thing like that? Is documentary still the poor cousin of independent films?

TOM Not at all actually. Speaking for Metrodome when we pick up a documentary we're not just seeing it as a documentary but we see it as a feature film we no longer separate the two. Our P & A spend for the Corporation is exactly how you'd calculate it for a feature film. Its not like we're putting any less money into it but our p & a is ultimately determined by how much the cinema circuit is going to support it. So if you can get it into a certain number of cinemas then that's going to dictate how much money you're going to have to spend on it.

JESS So you're saying that documentaries are now just seen as a feature film. Is that the perception? Jule?

JULE Definitely. We do the same job there's no difference.
TOM We don't spend half an hour less because it's a documentary.
JULE Documentary used to be a dirty word. You wouldn't put it on the poster or something. But now it's become an asset, it's actually a selling point.

TOM Its like if you make a good film. Whatever the film is its going to find an audience. If the films not good then it's going to be a lot more difficult to find the audience.

JULE Its the same with exhibitors. Like with Etre et Avoir, the exhibitors and everyone really believed in it. They also liked it.

JESS Is this because they watched it and thought that they really believed in it?

JULE Yes and they give you their vote. In the same way that they would play any other feature length films.

JESS Well lets move onto Etre Et Avoir. So I suppose the perception that I had was that it was a kind of surprise success. But what you're saying is that actually from the beginning the exhibitors and the distributor yourself believed that it was a great film and that it was going to do really well. It wasn't something that you thought 'oh we'll put this out in a small way' and then 'oh my god it's really taking off.

JULE Tartan only picked that film up when it was already released in France and it'd had done really well and won lots of awards. So it did have a history and in France it was definitely a hit. Nobody had expected it to take off in that way and they just had to churn out prints after prints. So it had that history, it had taken over so many million in France and then we picked it up.

JESS When you say you picked it up. How did that actually happen? Who at your company saw it, where did they see it and how did they see it.

JULE We had an acquisitions consultant called Patricia Rey, at the time she really championed that film. She saw it in Cannes in 2002. The problem with Etre et Avoir was that the BBC had funded it so the terrestrial TV rights were gone by the time that we could acquire it. But we saw so much potential in it that we picked it up anyway.

JESS So you picked it up only for theatrical.

JULE No

JESS For theatrical and DVD

JULE For DVD and other non terrestrial channels. I know that we had this tape of this film lying around in our office for ages and Patricia was really championing it. In the end we got it. I wasn't really involved in the acquisitions process. I know that it was only picked up after its release in France.

JESS Shall we watch your clip actually?

JULE Yes why not.

JESS I think that'll help inform the discussion because the style of the film is very distinctive isn't it.

JULE It's very observational but it does have a narrative

JESS So do you want to take us through what happens as a distributor once a decision to purchase has been made.

JULE We usually approach the sales agent if there is one or the Production Company. I think in this case it was the production company, and make a deal with them. You usually try and buy all the rights for at least 10 years if you can. This means theatrical, video, DVD, TV terrestrial and non terrestrial. Then it's up to you. You have the rights and they just leave you with it. Sales agents sell to different countries.

JESS Presumably you pay an advance on a film like this.

JULE You pay some of it in advance, you pay a minimum guarantee, which is like an advance. You pay a percentage of the deal and the rest comes once the film is released.

JESS I presume you don't want to say exactly how much you paid in advance for this film. But what's the sort of ballpark if you've got a film like that, which has been at Cannes and already been a success in another country. What sort of ballpark is someone going to get?

JULE It's hard to say. I'm not in the acquisitions area I'm sorry, but I don't know maybe you guys know?

JESS I'm sure it's a bit different but is it say around 50k or 250 k

HUGH It varies with every film based on the potential that the sales company actually sees in the film and whether it's already screened at festivals or won prizes.

TOM Also varies on the deal. You may pay less up front but more once its come out and its worked. (It depends on) It's very variable basically

JULE It also depends on how many people are bidding for it. It can be like an auction where there may be lots of people who want this title and then the price just goes up.

TOM Like Supersize there was a kind of bidding war on that one.

JULE That was very expensive but I can't say how much. (Tom, there was a bidding war?) Yes after Sundance in January.

JESS I'm just curious because. Has anyone here read Down and Dirty Pictures by Peter Buskin? The book about Miramax. Its really great but one of the things; and obviously I'm sure that your business practices as all of you are distributors are not very much like Miramax. But there you learn the lesson; unless you get your money upfront on the signing of the deal, you aren't going to see a penny out of Miramax. Somehow it all gets eaten and this is a big theme in that book. That the only people who made money out of selling their films to Miramax were those who got the money in the bank on the signing of the contract. So I suppose from reading that one gets the impression that it's a good thing to try and get as large an advance as possible rather than negotiating a share of the takings later. So is that what people try and do? Do they try and lever a large advance? Is that the name of the game?

TOM They often try but at Metrodome we don't often go for it.
HUGH No we don't. No. (giggles)
JULE Tartan certainly doesn't.

JESS Okay Jule, sorry carry on.

JULE Shall I explain the marketing? With Etre et Avoir we decided to stick with the French title. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. In this case because it was already distributed in France and Germany it didn't actually harm the release of the film to keep the French title. In English it does have some religious connotations like 'to be and to have' so we just stuck with the French title. We picked a release date I think June 20 2003. It was a good date to go with because exhibitors could give us space. We kind of knew that it was a real word of mouth movie because it's difficult to pitch the synopsis in an interesting way. Because its like ' its this teacher and lots of kids' so we knew we had to get people to see the film. Also once its released it would need some time to build momentum and word of mouth to kick in. So June 20 happened to be the date. So then we developed the poster. I think that then we didn't actually spend that much money because we knew it would be more hands on; get it out there and let people see it. So we started screening it really early, from May onwards to targeted people.

JESS so preview screenings.

JULE Preview screenings and talker screenings. In terms of straightforward advertising we had to do press ads, and an underground campaign in London. Apart from that it was targeting the educational sector so that's how we started off. With the French institute they developed an educational pack. They also have a database of French teachers all over the country. They developed a pack for these teachers to use in classes, encouraging people to actually use this film for people to learn French basically. So that was really good and they took care of that and we also did a screening programme with times educational supplement. Just targeting all these kind of people.

JESS So did you open it on a smaller number of screens

JULE We only opened it on 10 Screens mainly London. Because we wanted to build the momentum in London and then roll it out regionally. That's how we often do smaller releases. You open In London and key cities and then wait maybe two weeks then roll it out regionally.

JESS Because this is very different from the thing that we always hear that if you don't go and see a film in the opening weekend then its too late because those are the figures that everybody looks at and that determines its future.

TOM You would look more not at the figure but actually at the screen average. So if you're only in 10 cinemas and your screen average is what was it ? £5 6 K a screen.?

JULE For this one no it was only £3.5K

TOM But other ones like Touching the Void had a screen average of £4k so that's a good screen average. That's the box office for the Friday Saturday Sunday and then divide it by the number of screens.

JESS But the number of seats in the screens?

TOM That's not counted. It's just the number of screens, because you want to put your film into the cinema with the bigger screen.

JESS Clearly Yes. That's the way it works. So its not per seat average its per screen.

TOM It's per screen, it doesn't actually matter. If its got a high screen average then they see its going to work.

JESS So those figures are very important are they?

JULE After opening a film on the Friday, the Monday screen average is the most important figure.

JESS So that's the equivalent of your TV overnights. That's your ratings, everyone's waiting for that figure to come in.

JULE Sometimes exhibitors give you either two weeks or one week in that particular hall. But if you have a high screen average then they keep you on for another two weeks. If you have a low screen average then you might lose that cinema.

TOM Or at least lose the number of times you show that film in that cinema. So fewer screenings.

JESS So around £3 3.5 4k is good?

JULE That's really good.

JESS What's terrible?

HUGH Thousand or under is awful. For something like this I guess its something like £2 2.5k. I guess you're looking for.

TOM 9/11 was nearly 10k a screen

JULE It's a real kind of gamble. Sometimes that's what Hollywood does when they have a dog of a movie they know its not going to last. So they bring them out with lots of prints (Tom hit and run) they hype them and release them with lots of prints and it plays for two weeks and then they make some cash.

JESS If they open it small word will get around that its shit and no one will come out.

JULE Every release is different.

JESS So you have a different strategy for a different kind of release. So how long did it stay in the cinema?

JULE This was forever because as I said it takes some time to build word of mouth and because exhibitors put it on over and over again. It 's had 3 or 4 runs in regional locations. It's become such a rep title. We released it in June and in August it was on BBC TV but it still kept playing in cinemas as well. It did affect the theatrical but it was a few months after we released it and it still kept playing in cinemas. Probably still is. It played through

JESS And it's made £708 000. I've got a question for all of you we're going to talk about 9/11in a minute but the question! Which is that... If I had a documentary that took a million pounds in the cinema. How much of that would I get?

TOM It depends on the deal.

JESS I know it depends on the deal. But realistically a good deal or a great deal would mean I got the upper bit and a shitty deal would mean I got less. I'm just curious.

TOM. I'm not that sure. If you'd have got all your money upfront then you wouldn't' get any more probably.

JESS So if I signed a deal that said pay me 50k and a rubbish percentage or none then obviously I'd have got nothing.

TOM It's like an actor signing one percent of the gross or something. They're gambling on it but if it works then they're going to really well.

JESS Because it seems to me that a lot of people actually take a chunk of that money and when we hear a film's taken a million pounds at the box office you think my god that's a lot of money.

TOM A distributor only gets on average about 30% of that. We've brought the film marketed the film spent all the money on the prints. But we'll only get 30% of that million.

JESS And the other 70% go to the cinemas, minus VAT.

JESS So if we've taken a million then you're down to £300k already. Then you lose the vat. So you're down to about £250k?

JULE The thing with theatrical distribution you don't actually make any money. If you break even then that's good. .Its when you go into TV and video, that's when you make the money.

JESS Michael Moore has obviously made a lot of money off the theatrical release of 9/11 even if it never went to DVD right?

HUGH Yeah. He will have seen a certain %age back because he has a lawyer and the leverage to do that in advance. Whereas documentaries in general, they're so untried and untested that you'd note the person the maker of the documentary wouldn't have that kind of leverage to put themselves in that position so its different for them. Maybe the next one they make they might be able to do more with that. I think it's a combination. I think the way the industry looks at it is that people should be grateful that they've taken on their film to release it. Which is not a particularly nice way of looking at it.

JESS I can see how that works. Sorry to keep banging on about this so to keep to this £1m thing, we're down to £250k after vat. And how much money might you guys have spent on the P & A to get it to that level.

TOM Multiply however many prints by £5k so if you had 10 prints then you'd spend £50 k

JESS for a film that spins up to about a million.

JULE Supersize me will probably do that. It's only been out 3 weeks and its done £800k

TOM What was your p & a on that?

JULE I think we spent something like £300k. It came out on 80 prints and we had film council backing.

JESS So you spent about £300k so in fact there goes all the money. Bang. That's the answer. That's why you don't get any money. But presumably the filmmaker then tries to make some money off the DVD sales as do the distributor right. Because the idea is that having spent all that money on the theatrical the idea is setting up a better deal on the DVD.

TOM In theory yes. It doesn't always work. Sometimes a film will, like a documentary. A lot of documentaries have done really well in the cinema. We did spellbound and it did really well in the cinema but on DVD proportionally it hasn't really done as well as you would have expected.

HUGH The same with Lost in La Mancha that we did as well. It did really well in cinemas but actually it really didn't do that much on DVD at all. It was very much of the moment. Everyone writing about it people being here promoting it and the release and after that it's gone.

JESS Whereas something like Etre Et Avoir is a classic. Something people want to collect. I can kind of see how that works, I mean I've seen Lost in La Mancha and its great. I'm not sure I'd want to buy it to watch at home again and again though. Certainly with Etre et Avoir I stole someone else's DVD so I can do that anytime I like. It is very collectable and its just been released now did you say?

JULE No. It was out last year it came out in Sheffield. The window is 6 months.

JESS And what is the figure that its taken?

JESS I don't know what its taken. I can find out though.

JULE It would be interesting to know if that's where the money comes from. Anyway. So Hugh, tell us about Fahrenheit 9/11. Its kind of the opposite to Etre Et Avoir it's not a slow builder that no one's heard of but when they see it they're gonna love it. It's sort of the complete opposite.

HUGH Pretty much, yes. But in a study of contrast we released another documentary this year as well called the Agronomist about Haiti directed by Jonathan Demme which we all loved and we brought it and ultimately that was released on one print. In an Odeon cinema. All of the independent cinemas didn't want to play it particularly, so that was our whole kind of debate out of it.

JESS Did they watch it?

HUGH Yes the process is when you've brought the film you get the print and you screen it to all of the exhibitors. So from Odeon, UCI all those people to the Curzon Soho people, City Screen who run the Picturehouse Cinemas.

JESS Do they all come to the one screening?

HUGH Sometimes. Its quite hard to pin them down to be honest.

JESS Convenient for you.

HUGH They'll all go to see something like Alien Versus Predator but they don't often all turn out to see a documentary.

JESS But you bribe them?

HUGH So just in contrast. Even though you do have a documentary you can't presume where it's going to play. It could play in a multiplex cinema like an Odeon or it could play in an independent cinema. You just don't know when you've bought them, what the reaction is going to be. It's really hard to gauge it.

TOM Its quite interesting that though as a few years ago you would have only got a documentary into an arthouse cinema. But now the circuit cinemas are supporting documentaries a lot more. Certainly with Supersize Me and 9/11. There's a lot of Odeon's and UGCs playing it.

JULE It was in the Warner West End actually.

TOM A couple of years ago that didn't happen. That's probably a factor that's helped documentary get to where it is now. Because the exhibition, which is the end point of the film is supporting documentaries a lot more, which helps.

HUGH It's certainly supporting the ones which we can demonstrate, that we can get behind as well. With Fahrenheit 9/11 for instance we actually didn't get a lot of independent cinema dates because they chose to play The Story of the Weeping Camel which opened on the same day. Which has also done very well. But we actually found ourselves in the strange position of having a documentary which was obviously a very big documentary and everyone knew about it. But it was playing in multiplex cinemas which we don't work with that often on such a large scale and actually the natural home of the documentary the cinemas we work with to kind of push the film for us were saying no.

JESS Is that because of the perception that the film was too big and not independent enough and that Story of the Weeping Camel was more intriguing for an independent cinema.

HUGH That is part of it. But it was also their agenda of what they wanted to play at the same time. They wanted us to open it on a different date.

TOM The date was important on this one

HUGH All the distributors wanted to move around it. They wanted us to open much later in July. But that was close to when you (Tom) were releasing Supersize me so then you moved that later on for various reasons.

JESS Is that a collaborative process or do you just go 'Bastards' we just found out the fuckers are opening it and then change it. Maybe after this panel we're going to see a whole new way of working. 'Hey I've just thought I'd let you know'

TOM We're all friends..haha

HUGH So it was really a strange experience for us. The film was pre brought without having seen it. Last year at Cannes based on one sheet of paper, which had an outline. Which didn't quite turnout to be what they ended up with, but was enough. One of the things the guys who run Optimum anyway, always like to do is not only to release interesting documentaries but they do like to release them from named directors which gives you that kind of inroad. Although it didn't with the Agronomist with Jonathan Demme but it does sometimes. Obviously Michael Moore had done really well with Bowling for Columbine, won an Oscar and in this country fortunately he's much more popular than a lot of other countries and Stupid White Men I think sold 1million copies here which is completely mainstream acceptance. With Dude Where's my Country, we worked with Penguin and they released it at the same time as us. They gave us a page in the book they wanted to work together and promote it. He's just mainstream here. I think amongst documentary makers and documentary watchers who avidly watch them I think people are tired of him and there's a kind of backlash against what he does. Which I can totally understand from when you watch that film you're either going to like it or hate it but we had a lot to build on. When they brought it I think that they thought it was going to be a no brainer really.

JESS Still a big risk though. I'm assuming that there was a lot of cash put on the table for a film written on the back of an envelope.

HUGH It was the biggest film we've ever been involved in. The biggest amount we've shelled out for a film. It was a lot riding on it.

TOM Calculated risk though.

HUGH Yes in a lot of ways. But then it also meant instead of working with a nice small sales company that we usually work with on most documentaries. We were working with Harvey Weinstein in the background and Andrew Herwitz The Fellowship Adventure Group as they name themselves. And they're very aggressive and they set a lot of conditions down for how much money you could spend basically because they wanted to make as much money as possible.

JESS So you had to guarantee a certain level of P & A spend

HUGH No. They set a limit as to how much we could spend.

JESS Oh? To make sure that you didn't spend all the money that was going to come back.

HUGH It wasn't very much money. We didn't actually spend that much money releasing Fahrenheit 9/11 it was only slightly more than Supersize Me in the end.

JESS That was a calculation then by the Miramax people that they'd done such a good job making it the story at Cannes they didn't need to spend that much money.

HUGH Yes I think that because they brought the rights back from Disney, it was their personal interest involved in it. (So they actually.) Really it was about 2or 3 people just wanting to make as much money as possible. Which probably includes Michael Moore. I don't know any of the specifics of his deals. We're not involved in that. So it was very different for us to actually be involved in that. We actually would have spent more money. We probably would have done more TV advertising. We only did a very small amount. It was very interesting for us to be involved in the whole process of it. Despite the fact that it was so out there in peoples consciousness. We did have a backlash against it in the press and the media. In a way it helps as well because it was in the papers everyday; it's still in the papers everyday now in our cuttings. We did a lot of quite interesting things with it. For instance this is the campaign that was delivered to us for the film. Really quite boring. (Lifting poster)

JESS This was delivered to you by the American team? They used this poster in America?

HUGH Yes they have. For one special press ad that they did in the NY Times they did this campaign. Which wasn't licensed for anywhere else in the world. We actually did get it licensed in the end because I think this is much more representative of what it's all about and that's very boring. (comparison ad and poster) The only approvals process that we had to go though for this was actually Michael Moore's body double who has some say over how its used. It's not actually his body.

JESS Is that because Michael Moore wasn't available to hold hands with George Bush that day?

HUGH He doesn't like being photographed apparently.

JULE That is actually a real shot then? I thought it was comp'd

HUGH Yes that's the body doubles body and his head put together so we actually had to get permission from his body double.

JESS You are allowed to get a picture of the president presumably

HUGH Yes they took care of that. In terms of broadening it out to make it seem more populist and accessible that was the route we decided to go. Because that one was just boring.

JESS You've got a trailer. Was that a trailer that you cut at your end?

HUGH No the trailer was theirs. We only had 3 weeks from actually receiving the film and getting it into the cinemas so it was the shortest release ever. And in that time we did all the things you'd expect basically. We tried to hook up with all the left wing organisations here and they did some work with us. We produced some fake radio spots, which was an old American voiceover actor telling people not to go and see the film because he was so outraged. So it was all the things you'd expect and from my point of view what was interesting about it was that it was a documentary playing in mainstream cinemas that was something new. Something different, I'm not sure whether it's changed anything though.

JESS The number of screens is 132.

HUGH It opened on 132 prints then about 2 weeks later it went up to 150 then went up to 199 because we were forbidden from releasing it on 200.

JESS So it opened on 132 and went up to 200 screens On this chart the next biggest film in terms of screens is Supersize Me which opened on 82. But then again was that before or after Fahrenheit opened. (after September 10th) So that was probably helped by the fact that Fahrenheit had opened so wide.

JULE We always wanted to go after.

JESS And the total figure that it's taken in this country is?

HUGH For Fahrenheit its nearly £6.5 million.

TOM Jesus Christ!

JESS The next biggest for comparison is £2.5 for Touching the Void. So it really is over twice the box office.

HUGH As I said before we didn't actually spend that much money on it. I think obviously because it was so out there. Not because we'd done such an amazing job that we didn't have to. We had a lot of risk involved in it and I really don't think we knew it was going to do quite as well as it actually did do. It was quite nerve racking up until that point and it worked. Obviously in America it worked but its just so much more for America than it is for any other country.

JESS Just looking at the time I think we might skip the trailer if that's ok. TOM Do you want to tell us about the Corporation?

TOM Yes I was just going to talk about Spellbound quickly as well. We did Spellbound which followed after Etre Et Avoir and it was another educational one. It largely seemed to be the year of the educational documentary and this year is like the year of the political documentary. (Jule, Fun political documentary) Something with a message. Shall we see the trailer first for the Corporation.

JESS Do you want to say anything about what it is? Do people know what the Corporation is? Have you heard about it?

TOM It's showing here at 5.30 this afternoon. It's a documentary that has Michael Moore in it. Naomi Klein, Noam Chomsky, Milton Freidman and a whole load of other talking heads. It looks at the Corporation and what corporations have done to society and how they're now the most powerful things in our lives and how they control everything we pretty much do.

JESS It's a really fantastic film I highly recommend it to you all. Let's watch the trailer.

TOM The third trailer.

JESS Yes sorry we're skipping number two and going to the Corporation.
Trailer.

JESS Tom, so yes with the Corporation the way we've seen it is more than just a film we've seen it as a bit of a movement building tool as well. We've taken it wider than just being a film. This film we actually saw on a beta in Amsterdam and bought it before there was any hype about it at all. We're only going out in 20 cinemas and it's a lot less than these two. Our date is very fixed around what Optimum and Tartan did with Supersize me and 9/11 because we can in a way go on the back of both of their successes.

JESS So it's important that you don't try and compete in the same time frame. You try and find a slot after they've released their film.

TOM Yes Corporation opened in America and they had their date fixed for a long time and then Michael Moore came in the date they expanded Corporation, 9/11 came in and it really hurt them in America. There's no point in taking on Michael Moore. He's too big.

JESS So it's opening when?

TOM It's showing tonight at Resfest and then we open at the end of the month on 29th October. We're very lucky we don't have a director behind it but we have this incredibly strong image that says a lot about the film. Usually films use a picture or film image but we decided to go with this image because it says a lot about what the film is.

JESS There's been a very big badge campaign as well hasn't there. In fact I'm wearing one. I didn't put it on especially; I just genuinely have been wearing it for weeks and weeks. But every time I go to a film festival someone gives me another corporation badge. You've had people doing the badge thing.

TOM very much on the corporation thing its actually quite different to Supersize me and 9/11, we're not actually spending that much money because we're only opening it on 20 cinemas and we've got a P & A of about £100k

JESS How does that divide up? Where do you spend that £100k? Where does that get spent on is that for prints, radio?

TOM Prints will take up about a 25% of that

JESS so the actual making the physical prints comes out of that budget? Then what's left gets spent on

TOM press, marketing and advertising.

JESS when I said print I meant print adverts.

TOM No that's £75k of the £100k

JESS And how much advertising does £75k buy you?

TOM With the corporation I've been keen to do a very much grass roots campaign on it which costs a lot less money but can get a good buzz on it from different areas. We're spending I probably cant say but it'd be around just under £40k on media advertising.

JESS for instance how much does a full page in Time Out Cost?

JULE £3685 colours.

Laughs
Question from audience
JESS The question is 'What is the movement that the film is attached to' (taken from audience)

TOM the movement would be on the success of Supersize Me and 9/11. I think that society generally questioning a lot more of what is happening to themselves and to society generally and Corporation is a film that presents a lot of the issues that are currently being talked about in the world. So it's capturing the Zeitgeist of today. It's not a party or anything like that but it's the subjects that the film raises are very relevant in today's society.

JESS I had a look on the website for Corporation. It's got a really terrific website. A really nice feature on it was that it was encouraging people to see the film in groups so that you can then discuss it afterwards. I guess trying to build that thing of go and see the film and then come out of it and feel really angry and pissed off and be with people that you can say ' yeah fucking hell how can we try and change this' The websites trying to foster that and foster discussion around the film in that way.

TOM we produced this booklet quite a big fan of booklets on documentaries anyway because the tell a lot to an audience you can learn a lot more about the film before you go and see it. In this one you've got two pages Once you've seen it or before you've seen it we've been working with all these different NGOs and activists to start spreading the word out and we're offering all the different websites as a way of continuing your journey on the film and trying to make a difference.
I produced about 75k of these booklets it cost about £2.5k. Its not much really but very effective. That's what we've done with this campaign. We're doing lots of grass roots activities making booklets, stickers, posters and we've produced an 18 minute DVD we cut the whole thing down to 18 minutes. (Jess the original running time?) Is 144 minutes but we decided we were going to do lots of screenings with student groups and activist groups and we're doing a lot of work with Amnesty International and Action Aid so we made the shorter version of the film on DVD. It's incredible. To make 1000 copies of a DVD that at least 20000 people will see that and it costs £1k. In terms of an investment and what you get back on it it's amazing and now we've got this DVD playing in all the different Student Unions around the country and all the different activist groups and housing collectives.

JULE do you think they'll come and see the longer version of the film when it comes out?

TOM yes I think if we'd over screened the full film then it may have affected our box office. But the DVD, we like to think it introduces all the subjects but three's so much more in the film.

JESS presumably its also a way of doing a much cheaper preview screening. Because preview screenings aren't cheap are they.

TOM It depends on the Cinemas.

JESS Because you have to pay for the Cinema.

JULE Not always

TOM it depends if you get the cinemas for free.

HUGH sometimes.

JESS Really how do you manage to do that? Because I've never managed to get one.

TOM If you've got a cinema chain like City Screen for example and you've got them supporting it and you do them in the morning on a Sunday or a Saturday you get them for free.

JESS You get the graveyard. I mean I've never got one for free.

JULE UGC Cinemas if they're playing the film they'll let you have the screen.

HUGH they'll support you because presumably it benefits everyone.

JESS So presumably this DVD distribution is another way of doing a preview.

TOM The only cost is paying for the DVD and your mailing out of that. Also there's an incredibly large amount of work in trying to find the different groups and communicating to them already. But we're working with three different networks that'll then do it for us.

JESS Good luck with that. Is there anything else you'd like to say about Corporation.

TOM With documentaries I think its really important that you get certainly the film within your audience group so you work out which audiences the films going to appeal to and you don't just put your adverts in and you do a lot of grass roots activities and target the niche groups. It's very important and that's also if you're making a documentary. If you're making a documentary you can see an audience there as you're making it, it makes it a lot more marketable.

JESS well lets move onto that because in terms of the documentaries that get picked up it sounds a little bit to me like, well certainly with the three films you gave, all came through film festivals. Obviously Fahrenheit wasn't completed but it was a conversation, which happened at a film festival, Etre et Avoir was seen by a scout at a film festival, Corporation you saw at IDFA which is the Amsterdam Documentary festival. If people approach you with a documentary. Presumably people just send you documentaries. Are they ever watched? Do you just put those in the bin? Do you wait to go to festival and see which ones the festivals have selected and then choose from those.

TOM we have someone that watches everything that comes in.

HUGH they're all watched. Most of them pretty much all of them.

JESS So a film maker can just say 'Here's my documentary its halfway done but here it is' But is that the best way? If you were going to advise those members of the audience who are perhaps working on documentary features at how best to go around attracting the interest of a distributor. Is just sending the tape in the best way? Or is it getting into a festival first?

TOM I reckon marketing it in a special way like Corporation we brought it. But when we were buying it the logo man already existed and it was very strong. If you can make a strong identity to your film before you try and sell it.

JESS They'd already thought about how to make it stand out.

TOM Yes. Like when you go to a film festival. You pick the film sometimes on the nice press shots in the brochure. The shots that really stand out. It kind of communicates to you and you pay a little bit more attention.

JESS Can you remember a film that any of you have picked up that just came through the post? Well I know you watch them because no one wants to be the person who turned down the Beatles. You know 'We had a tape sent to us and we missed out because we forgot to watch it and we've missed out on the next huge thing. But realistically does anyone ever get a distribution deal through posting his or her film to you.

HUGH I think that it is generally part of the bigger picture. That quite often they come with a sales agent attached to them already so three's a relationship between a company and the sales agent.

JESS If there's a sales agent. That's presumably because it's an international documentary though so it's not coming from a British filmmaker.

HUGH No not necessarily. If you have a sales agent involved with you. They are going to actively promote it to international distributors and try and sell it. But they often only come on to pick up films at festivals after its screened or just before.

JESS OK so it's the same problem then. Which is how do you get a distributor? Well it helps if you have a sales agent how do I get a sales agent? Well you really need to have your film in a festival. In general it's a better route then to try and get your film into a festival and then take it from there.

JULE Into festivals that distributors go to. I think that's an infrastructure problem. There are lots of documentary festivals but it's not a market. It's not like Cannes.

JESS Which are the festivals that distributors go to, to make deals on documentaries?

TOM Amsterdam, Berlin, Cannes, Toronto, Venice, Sundance

HUGH I think Sundance being in January often sets a bit of an agenda with a lot of documentaries that show there first.

JESS Presumably you all go to Sundance? Because presumably every UK distributor goes to Sundance.

HUGH A lot of people don't actually go to Sundance.

TOM It's a bit of a jolly; Sundance its not actually a festival where deals get done anymore.

JESS Really? Why is that? The perception with filmmakers including me is that 'Wow if I can get my documentary into Sundance then I'm made! Everyone will come knocking my door down to make a deal with me.

HUGH They've got a really really impressive documentary strand there. Which has some really brilliant documentaries in there. But they actually don't have a great sales infrastructure or an industry office.

JESS So it's difficult for you guys to meet the filmmakers.

HUGH Its not that. Its more usually the bigger deals are done rather than the smaller things and that the UK distributors know that a lot of the documentaries go to Berlin which is a month after so they can see them there instead. Or in the Markets that are coming later on. So it's not so much of a priority to go there.

TOM I don't think many distributors actually go to Sundance. Because we have friends over there and they'll give us a call and say ' Oh this one's pretty cool' or this ones pretty good. Then as Hugh says the month after its Berlin.

JESS But the American distributors go to Sundance do they? And the brits wait to see what the buzz is and then go to Berlin?

HUGH Yes. I actually worked for the Sundance Film Festival this year and the one film that was the biggest film there was Supersize Me which caused the biggest trouble with screenings. Everyone wanting to see it and everything that was the biggest film of the whole thing.

JESS And had that already got a distribution deal by the time it went to Sundance?

HUGH No it didn't

JESS American or UK?

TOM It was the premiere of it.

JESS So it didn't have a US distributor either before it went to Sundance?

HUGH Most of them turned it down afterwards because they were too scared of being sued.

JULE We had to be really careful here as well

JESS You had to be really careful about being sued?

JULE It is about Macdonald's. Well Macdonald's is used as an example. But just with the artwork etc you don't use anything that licentious.

JESS So other tips about how to get your film. How can a film maker look at the thing they're working on and make a very difficult assessment of 'have I got a theatrical documentary here or have I got a TV documentary or have I just got a documentary that's going to be good for small screenings in smaller festivals.'

TOM I think its just stories. The story you're telling and your angle. You've got to have an angle. You've got to have a really great subject matter. But then to make it interesting its got to have an angle. The angle of investigation of that documentary should be very strong. Then that will give it a marketability when its finished.

JESS what makes you look at a film and think? ' This is too small' Is it about size? Is it about how universal it is? Is it about this is nice, but it's not universal enough for cinema? Or is it about this is nice but it hasn't got a niche audience that it appeals to?

HUGH I think some of that depends on how the end product turns out. At Optimum we did a documentary called Dark Days. Which I think is amazing, the best documentary I think I've seen. That came about from a guy who was a social worker who actually made the film himself. He's got no interest in actually making films and he's never made anything else but he wanted to highlight that specific issue. He made it in a really amazing way. He probably could go on and make other very interesting films as well but he chose not to. I think on seeing that film, it was just one of those films that the person who bought it for the company was just like 'I have to have that film' and he met the guy and just really believes in his story so it can just be something like that.

JESS but that had a good story behind it didn't it. His whole story about how he made that film. Whether its true of mythical that he taught himself how to shoot a 35mm or 16mm film camera and got all the stock from here there and everywhere and made this incredible film. It's sort of very good story behind the film. Presumably that helps you because you've got something for the press to pickup on.

HUGH it does to a certain degree. I don't think you have to have an amazing story behind your own life to have to do that as well. But yes it probably did help with that.

TOM You've got to be passionate as well. Like Michael Moore, for all his faults, he is very passionate about the story he's trying to put across. Singer, Mark Singer who did Dark Days was very passionate. The guys who made The Corporation are very passionate. If you look at these figures as well there's only six documentaries ever in the UK that have made over a million pounds so really you cant be going into documentary making to become a millionaire or make a load of money.

JESS Don't worry I think people that who've been working in documentary have long taken that for granted.

TOM a lot of it is about the passion of the subject that you're doing.

HUGH You are right as well in saying that the personal angle is a big factor later on when you think about what are we actually going to do to make something out of this. With Capturing the Freidmans it was so personal and that was such a great story to write about. We've got a film coming up as well called Tarnation which is also very much in the same way a family confessional but done in a very different way to Capturing. There's a lot for people to read about and to know about.

JESS There's a story behind it then.

JULE Is that the one that was made for $200

HUGH $218 on Hi Movie.

TOM Really!

JESS What was the budget on Fahrenheit 9/11?

HUGH It wasn't very much.

JESS it was several million though wasn't it?

HUGH Oh yeah yeah yeah. In terms of what it could have been. I think it was about $10m

JESS which is bloody expensive for a documentary. So you've got them pinned out. You've got the cheapest and the most expensive documentaries recently made.

HUGH It may have actually been less than 10. I think it was about 8. I can't remember exactly.

JESS You're not giving me enough clues here. You're telling me that I had to be passionate about it and that there has to be an angle about it but I'm still.

JULE I think it has to be topical as well. I mean I don't think there is a rule of thumb. As you can see with Etre et Avoir as I said we had a really boring pitch. But when you see it, you just can't help liking it.

JESS so what you're telling me is that its something that cant be communicated but when you see it you know it.

HUGH Going on from that we've got a British teacher who rings us up every week saying that she's got the British version of that film and we have to make it. But its already been made so you cant just make a British version of it. Why would you do that? I don't know if anyone could make it better and tell it in the same way. It's really difficult to make those kinds of decisions. But she's convinced that she's going to make the British version of it but you just don't know. I mean someone's already made it. There's no point releasing another film, which is exactly the same so soon after one, which was a) really good and b) really successful.

TOM I suppose it's the drama element of it as well. Spellbound had an element of drama. Again it was a kind of pitch. It's about a bunch of 11 year olds that spell. Just off that it doesn't shout its going to work.

HUGH It's one of the most tense films of all time!

TOM Yeah. I mean its tense. It's got that tension in it and that's credit to the director Jeff Blitz. To make that film I think he maxed out 15 credit cards. He didn't have a bankroll behind it he just did it himself and put some more credit cards to it to actually get it finished.

JESS How early would you get involved. Because I know that traditionally distributors have only ever acquired documentaries when they're finished and if they're convinced that they're actually good enough, that they can actually work for them. It seems to me that because of the new success of docs there's a chance now that distributors might put completion money or indeed funding money in. I presume that with Fahrenheit effectively that happened did it. Because you actually sent them a cheque before they made it so your money became part of their production fund.

HUGH Yes partly. I think another good example of that is Touching the Void, which was fully funded, and had distribution in most countries before it went into production as well.

JESS But the distributors had actually put money in upfront.

HUGH It was made by Film Four. Obviously part of Channel 4 and so they already had that deal here and they sold it to TV stations with proviso that it would have a theatrical release already as well. So that's a good example of someone investing in it right from the beginning.

JULE but then again you had really big names attached to that. Touching the Void is an Oscar winning documentary maker and the books really famous. With Fahrenheit there's Michael Moore.

JESS Is it worth film makers coming to you and saying ' I've got one page of A4, I've got the back of an envelope and it's a fucking great idea and I'm looking for a distributor NOW and I'm looking for cash NOW to help me make it.' Or is there no point in a British filmmaker approaching you in that way unless they are...

TOM Unfortunately we wouldn't put that kind of money in. We only buy finished product.

JESS Tartan. Are you putting money into things?

JULE Occasionally but that's mainly feature films. We're releasing 2046 the new Wong Kar Wai film and that's a feature that we put some money into. But that's very rare.

JESS is there a possibility that you might?

TOM I wish we could actually because I think there's a lot out there.

JESS Well that's how Miramax moved isn't it.

TOM But often with people running the distribution companies it's all calculated risk. If they can't calculate the risk, if its not a named director, if they haven't got the calibre behind them, its really difficult to convince a distributor to put up money. In part, in our defence, we are only getting 30% of the box office. We have to put a lot of money in to try to make a film work already. If we have to put in more money at the start it is like a double risk in a way.

HUGH and also the sales proportion is lower for DVD sales returns for documentary so you have to factor that in as well

JESS but the budgets are lower as well

HUGH that is true

TOM But the good thing about documentary is that anyone can make one if they have a good idea, the equipment is there, the technology is a lot cheaper...

JESS not just anyone can make a good documentary Tom! It's really, really hard! (giggling)

TOM yeah yeah

JESS (question from the audience) the question was 'what do we mean by "putting money in"'?

TOM I see that as actually putting money into the budget of the film

JESS (from the audience) okay the question is 'is it possible to get a distributor to write a letter to commit to distributing a film before it is made or before it is finished because obviously if you have a letter like that you can go to other funders and say 'look Metrodome are going to distribute it when it is finished'' Does that every happen.

TOM we have done that with Lukas Moodison a couple of times, but no, not really.

JULE the thing with documentaries is that it is more complicated because a lot of them are funded by television and then if the TV rights are gone, then it is much attractive a package and that's part of the consideration about whether there will be more British docs on the big screen and I think that is the main problem. If it is a US film or French film and the US TV rights are gone we don't care but if it's a British film and the British TV rights are gone it's a big problem.

JESS I see, a big part of the package is missing already. But Hugh do you ever write letters for people saying we are definitely going to distribute a film, or we are definitely very interested, do you ever do that.

HUGH you can say yeah we are interested but at the end of the day that doesn't mean you will and you don't know who else will be going after it. At the end of the day even though our companies are really different we are often going after the same films and there are so many more independent distributors in this country now as well, loads of them and so many more films coming out its so competitive which is a good thing I suppose but its bad for us, it means your films get taken off screen much quicker but its good for people making films that there are so many small operations out there, I mean all our companies started as really small operations and have grown bigger and bigger.

JULE and also with documentaries it's so unpredictable - which is also the beauty of making them. Capturing the Friedmans started with guy who wanted to make a film about children's clowns in New York and what he discovered was an amazing story.

JESS If he had come to you and said please fund my amazing documentary about children's entertainers!

JULE or like this Metallica film which we just released on Friday, if someone says 'I got access to Metallica in group therapy' that's great but this film did not start like that, they were going to shoot a promotional video for them and then it turned out this massive crisis started to happen and they just allowed them to film it.

JESS that is the wonderful, wonderful thing about documentary, you don't know going in exactly what you are going to get on the way out, you don't have a script that you can say 'are you going to fund this? Touching the Void being the exception because you could say this is exactly what you are going to get which is a very comfortable place for funders to be

TOM it's as much a drama as a documentary

JESS has anyone seen Metallica here? It's fucking great isn't it? So much better than you imagine it could be from hearing that it's about a band going through therapy. It really is great.

AUDIENCE you said you picked up a film on a one page treatment..

HUGH that was Fahrenheit 9/11

JESS please leave your one page treatments by the door..

(AUDIENCE QUESTION)

JESS yes what happened with the Agronomist, we didn't finish that story.

HUGH no one really wanted to play the film and so we decided to completely downscale the ambition with it really. It was a great story and we all liked it but it didn't seem to take anyone attention in the media or the exhibitors, I mean none of the arthouse cinemas around the country wanted to play it. We didn't really have any access to cinemas with it, I mean things like that happen all the time, we all end up downsizing things.

AUDIENCE did you pay for it?

HUGH yeah, oh yeah. It is worth making a point that we are all at the mercy of the exhibitors and documentaries are hard to get into cinemas. You have to pick a good date. They will actually tell you what the date is and it may not be what is best for the film. It is quite a struggle.

JESS I have one more question that I forgot to ask and then we will take more questions from the audience. About Michael Moore he is being credited with single handedly changing the expectations for documentary, not just with Fahrenheit although spectacularly with that, because his previous films are also right up there on the top 20 list. Sometimes I feel like he has been very strategic and has just ridden this wave the best rather than created it. What do you think Hugh, did he create this trend or just best exploited it?

HUGH I don't think he has exploited it or created it but he has made the film that has been of the moment. This year, because Fahrenheit 9/11 was such a big success story and a hype event that it has managed to get people to write about the year of the documentary and write about lots of other documentaries which they wouldn't have otherwise done. But I don't think he is riding the wave of other people's success I think, because of the kinds of films he makes, he has just become a personality much more than other documentary filmmakers.

JESS The thing is, is this documentaries time for many cultural reason and he has just been the person best placed to grab old of that or is it that without his films we wouldn't have broken through

TOM I think Michael Moore is a bit of a surfer but the quality of the documentaries is getting better son they look a lot more like feature films. But if you look at this list of films that have made box office it is only 13 documentaries that have made more than a quarter of a million pounds at the box office. Releasing films, a quarter of a million is a good figure to get to on a film and only 13 documentaries have hit that kind of benchmark. This year there is a bit of hype around it because of 9/11 because of Supersize Me but I do hope it's not just a fad. And I don't think it is because people are more interesting in seeing real life I mean you've got the whole reality TV thing. Society is much more voyeuristic, look at the success of Heat and the magazines that look at real life.

JESS I would hope its because people are sick of that kind of programming

TOM maybe that's why they go to the cinema to see a much higher quality of it. But the potential base for documentary is much, much bigger now than it was and that's probably a lot to do with Michael Moore.

AUDIENCE Does it make economic sense for non-famous filmmakers to release their films straight to DVD and do you have plans to do that?

TOM and not give it a theatrical release?

AUDIENCE yeah cos it seems like that's where there is a lot of the expense

TOM as distributors we all have a DVD arm to our companies. But often it is perceived that to have a chance on DVD you need a big splash at the cinema because cinema will give you national reviews but I mean there is certainly a case for going straight to DVD but I would think most filmmakers will want to see their films on the big screen first. We rely a lot on the theatrical to make the noise for a film, and it doesn't matter what size of film. We did a Brazilian documentary recently called Bus 174 and in America they only went out one cinema and it has done very well on DVD. We put it out on 3 cinemas to give it a god spring board so there would be lots written and people would learn a little bit more about it before it went onto DVD. There are things that go straight to DVD and films that don't work in the cinema but do work on DVD.

JESS I guess it is a question of whether there is a business model in that for you, or whether it is something that the individual filmmaker just takes on as a passion project like Robert Greenwald with Outfoxed

AUDIENCE I was thinking about things like Cinema 16

TOM Luke who does Cinema 16 does a really great thing there - like a film festival on DVD for a really great series of shorts which you couldn't find an audience for on their own.

[QUESTION FROM AUDIENCE]

JESS the question was will digital distribution mean more money for the filmmaker because of the savings of the cost of prints?

TOM, er no. What it will mean is that your film will potentially get to more cinemas than it would. I mean they are only planning to put in what, 25, there aren't going to be many digital projectors around but hose that do exist, like Jule said it will make it a lot cheaper to make copies off the master

AUDIENCE but you are not having to spend £1000 a print

TOM but how we would probably look at it is that we have more money to spend on advertising to go out and actually get an audience for your film. That's what the Film Council are doing, we haven't got support from them but you guys have had some from them

JULE yeah

TOM they are about putting more money into advertising it and the number of cinemas. They believe you need more money to put into adverts, we can only afford small adverts whereas 9/11 they were doing full pages.

AUDIENCE QUESTION

JULE the question was did we know that the TV rights to Etre et Avoir had gone when we acquired the theatrical right. Yes we did but we went for it anyway because the film had such great potential

AUDIENCE QUESTION

JESS The question was if a film takes £1 million at the box office what is its TV and DVD value.

TOM well you would know the TV value

JESS er yeah okay its roughly between £80,000 and £100,000 for a feature doc once it has been at the cinema and on DVD but I know that you guys are asking for considerably more than that for Fahrenheit 9/11 in fact you are calculating the value on the same formula that feature films have. I don't know that it is but there is a formula isn't there for taking the box office takings and turning them into a TV rights price? And I think Fahrenheit is the first documentary that a distributor has taken to a TV channel and demanded that documentary be treated like any other feature film. Whether or not you will get that price I don't know because the TV stations aren't used to paying that price.

HUGH in terms of Fahrenheit because it was a big project from the outset all that was in the contract from the beginning and was driven by the producers rather than by us, the distributors.

JESS but what about DVD guys? If something takes a million what would you be hoping for?

TOM not sure - and its hard to say because Spellbound did very well in the cinema but not very well on DVD. So its not always what you expect.

AUDIENCE - where can I get the DVD figures

TOM there is something can remember what it is, certainly if you work within the industry.

AUDIENCE we work in the industry and we can't get the figures

JESS yes and I have been trying to get the figures!

AUDIENCE I have been told that distributors try to bury the figures..

HUGH I don't think so, our DVD department can log onto a website and get those figures but sorry I don't know what it is. But because it is a group of retailers the information is pooled and only available to those retailers, they don't publish it I don't think.

JESS I will pursue this because I need those figures for the documentary book I am writing. I will find out and post it on the Shooters website. I suspect it is a commercial service like TV overnights that you pay quite a lot to have access to.
[Shooters I did find out and the answer is that over-the-counter DVD sales are recorded by a company called The Official UK Charts Company ( http://www.theofficialcharts.com). They are the only people to record this info and they charge upwards of £5,000 a year for access to it. Worse documentaries are not flagged by genre (they split TV from FILM only) so they cannot generate instant lists of the top documentaries - they can only pull figures if they have a title to enter into the database.]


JESS: Can you please thank my fantastic panel for coming and sharing their knowledge with us.
(applause)