What is clearly and unequivocally happening in the Middle East today is no less than the systematic ‘ethnic cleansing’ of Palestinians,by a fiendish combination of stealth ,on the one hand;-and ruthless oppression, on the other.
In this the Israeli government,are regretfully,fully supported by overwhelming majority of the jewish population ,and even more vehemently by their Diaspora in the U.S.A..
Their influence in America is so profound,that no aspiring,or incumbent President dare challenge their re-conquest of their ancestral homeland.On the contrary the American taxpayer has funded their expansionism to the tune of billions of dollars,and the G.I.s are arriving home in bodybags daily due to Bush’s embroilment in a quagmire which may yet match Vietnam.
After 9/11,America prepares the sandbags , to create the largest fortress in world history.
As they build a technological Great Chinese Wall,around the North American Continent- ,Israel is matching it with a concrete version somewhat alike to the barbed wire and watchtower variety which once before circumscribed their destiny in the death camps of The Third Reich.
The fanatical Muslim elements worldwide are emboldened and take strength daily from the injustices perpetrated in the name of an equally fanatical Jewish ‘God.’
Ben Laden’s chilling words ‘America will never be at peace as long as Palestine is unfree’
Are the precursor for an endless guerrilla war .The American people will pay a high the price for their government’s intransigence.
The task of concerned Indymedia supporters worldwide is to make a beginning.
Anti-war protests are of course valuable symbols of the opposition of decent people everywhere to this endless conflict,in which,both soldiers and civilians,including children are maimed or lose their homes ,their land and their lives daily.
A groundswell of manifest support for economic sanctions by the European community against Israel is a first real step.Israel has spent its moral capital.The second world war is long past .Millions of non jews also gave their lives in this conflict.
For all of us who cannot physicallydemonstrate our abhorrence of this war.We must somehow empower ourselves to displaying our outrage.Why ,one asks have sanctions not already begun, as Israel is in flagrant breach of every human right codicle,and statute in the Geneva convention of international law.
If our governments will not listen,perhaps a European Internet Petition Site calling for hundreds of thousands of signatures could begin this campaign which will surely be supported throughout the enlarged European Community of Nations,and indeed far beyond.
I put this proposal to any group with the expertise and/the resources to make a start,a symbolic beginning … to enable the common people to be heard, beyond the vacuum of silence,and empty posturing of our elected representatives in the E.U.
In this the Israeli government,are regretfully,fully supported by overwhelming majority of the jewish population ,and even more vehemently by their Diaspora in the U.S.A..
Their influence in America is so profound,that no aspiring,or incumbent President dare challenge their re-conquest of their ancestral homeland.On the contrary the American taxpayer has funded their expansionism to the tune of billions of dollars,and the G.I.s are arriving home in bodybags daily due to Bush’s embroilment in a quagmire which may yet match Vietnam.
After 9/11,America prepares the sandbags , to create the largest fortress in world history.
As they build a technological Great Chinese Wall,around the North American Continent- ,Israel is matching it with a concrete version somewhat alike to the barbed wire and watchtower variety which once before circumscribed their destiny in the death camps of The Third Reich.
The fanatical Muslim elements worldwide are emboldened and take strength daily from the injustices perpetrated in the name of an equally fanatical Jewish ‘God.’
Ben Laden’s chilling words ‘America will never be at peace as long as Palestine is unfree’
Are the precursor for an endless guerrilla war .The American people will pay a high the price for their government’s intransigence.
The task of concerned Indymedia supporters worldwide is to make a beginning.
Anti-war protests are of course valuable symbols of the opposition of decent people everywhere to this endless conflict,in which,both soldiers and civilians,including children are maimed or lose their homes ,their land and their lives daily.
A groundswell of manifest support for economic sanctions by the European community against Israel is a first real step.Israel has spent its moral capital.The second world war is long past .Millions of non jews also gave their lives in this conflict.
For all of us who cannot physicallydemonstrate our abhorrence of this war.We must somehow empower ourselves to displaying our outrage.Why ,one asks have sanctions not already begun, as Israel is in flagrant breach of every human right codicle,and statute in the Geneva convention of international law.
If our governments will not listen,perhaps a European Internet Petition Site calling for hundreds of thousands of signatures could begin this campaign which will surely be supported throughout the enlarged European Community of Nations,and indeed far beyond.
I put this proposal to any group with the expertise and/the resources to make a start,a symbolic beginning … to enable the common people to be heard, beyond the vacuum of silence,and empty posturing of our elected representatives in the E.U.
Comments
Hide the following 44 comments
Other Ideas
10.07.2004 17:05
I agree with your idea of a petition, i put an article on Indy titled "Support the International Court of Justice" the basic argument is that if our governments will nothing and complaining that without American support any actions against Israel are pointless, then it is up to us as the general puplic to act.
I'm suggesting that people not only boycott Israeli products but also inform their shops and supermarkets why they are doing it, as well as pressuing their MP's.
I am going to attempt to contact other larger groups and suggest that the support a boycott. If the effort is un-cordinated and isolated it will be unsucessful however if it can include many people not just from the UK but around the world then it might have a serious effect.
It could be worth writing to these organisations and see if they would support a petition to Europe.
Kris
boycott of Israeli products
10.07.2004 19:29
- -
A boycott is a powerful peaceful protest
10.07.2004 20:53
I live in the country(Ireland) which put this word into the oxford dictionary.
Captain Boycott was a cruel and capricious landowner in Ireland in the last century.This weapon was so effective then that he sold up and left the country forever.
I have great faith in it's effectiveness if properly supported and co-ordinated.
I believe the European community could bring Israel to the negotiating table if it could be got off the ground.
john mcdermott
evidence?
10.07.2004 21:02
bandora
boycott
10.07.2004 21:11
Nevertheless it needs co-ordination.a figure.A Martin Luther King.
The system and realpolitic in which we live only respects organization.Real evidence.real voices coming together as an influential pressure group.Thats how politics works.Remember the famous world of Stalin when somebody told him the Pope(roman catholic leader) was opposing him..He asked "how many divisions does he have"?
john mcdermott
please god see sense
11.07.2004 04:14
ive lived in israel for my life my parents were born there as were my grandparents, we are from judea smaria a small village you wont have heard of, my grandpa is 98 his wife was killed by arabs in the hebron killings in 1928 he will swear blind now that the arabs that lived in peace later with the jews did not call themselves palestinian.
they were just arabs, the palestinian name came much later.
muslims have been killing jews in that regeion since time began you should read unbias history, jews have lived in judea9west bank) and gaza for thousends of years, my granpa has arabs friends they left of their own accord he will tell you.
why do you persist ive been to oxford street and see you screaming free free palesine, what does that mean? it means no more israel, ive also more worse heard 'victory to the intifad' this is a terrible thing to chany out this means you want israelis dead.
boycott israel? why there are 1million arabs who earn a great living in israel i know lots of them they would lose jobs if you win, the high up arabs /palestinians are the ones to blame arafat and hamas etc they have the money .
i tell you now stop all this its like the nazis again
nick
Holocaust Card
11.07.2004 12:24
Please stop playing the Holocaust card, what happened to the Jews under the rule of Nazi Germany was a horrific crime, no one except a neo-nazi or someone who really hates all Jews could argue otherwise.
However because of what happened under Nazi Germany only makes what the IDF is going in Palestine even worse, as a people who have been oppressed and an attempt made to exterminate their whole race they should be the last people on the whole planet to attempt to exterminate another race.
I am not arguing that the aim of the boycott should be the destruction of Israel, there are certainly extremists who do have that aim, however there are just as many extremists in Israel who would like to see the destruction of the Palestinain people both are as bad as each other.
The aim of a boycott is simply to assure international law, which at heart is nothing more than the difference between right and wrong, is followed. Israel with the backing of the US has broken countless UN resolutions and yet nothing is done, if Israel was treated consitently then it should have been invaded (The justification for the Iraq war was that is ignored UN resolutions for 1990, Israel has been doing it since 1967)
A boycott is the most peaceful means of trying to force Israel to accept international law. International law is not something that can be accepted when it is useful and disregarded when it is not, although the US does use it like that, if this continues then international law might as well be given up.
As for the other questions raised, does this get the support of Palestinians. I don't know, it's hard to say as someone else mentined how do you decide if it has the support do you ask the government (In that case it would seem that Britian supported the war in Iraq) do you ask Hamas, do you ask the ordinary people on the street, if so how many?
I agree that organisation is key to this idea. How it will be organised i don't really know. As mentioned before i am going to try to contact several groups, such as Amnesty, ISM, the British Muslim association, it is possible that if large organisatins like these can communicate and agree with each other, as well as involving smaller groups, then sucess might be possible.
It is however, up to us to organise something initially and with the desision of the ICJ behind us we have the moral highground.
Kris
boycott
11.07.2004 14:56
the boycott of south africa had the support of south african blacks despite the fact that it was they who suffered the most under sanctions. you don't have any 'moral authority' to begin a boycott of israeli products unless you can show that the palestinians, who would no doubt suffer the most from such a strategy, have agreed to it. how do you show that? i'd suggest you ask them. it may seem obvious that they would agree, and it may well be that they +do+ agree but let's hear what they have to say.
- -
nick is the only one with any sense
11.07.2004 16:14
Perhaps he should have mentioned it, given that the Mufti of Jerusalem (whose name I can never spell), the leader of the "Palestinian" movement of brutal pogroms, and founder of the Arab Higher Committee, of which Fatah was later formed, which later took over/merged with the PLO, was in fact a NAZI and an instigator of the HOLOCAUST.
He moved to Berlin and organised pro-Nazi propaganda in the Arab world, the 1941 pro-Nazi coup in Iraq, the 20,000 Muslim volunteers in SS divisions in the Balkans who massacred Jews and Serbs, and, according to testimony by Nazis at the Nuremburg trials, was a leading instigator of the Holocaust and an enthusiastic supporter of it. He sent a letter to the Nazis asking not to allow the Hungarian Jews to "escape" and instead take them to somewhere more secure, like the death camps in Poland, and as a result of that 100,000s of Hungarian Jews died. He inspected Aushiwitz and, apart from expressing a concern that they weren't killing Jews fast enough, was impressed. He asked Hitler to help him set up an Arab-Islamic army to fight for the Nazis, and as only condition for helping with the Nazi project was that he should oversee the destruction of Palestinian Jewry and be placed ruler of the Arab world, which Hitler gradly agreed to. Oh and also his 1936-9 pogroms were Nazi-financed.
And Arafat has declared in an interview that he is proud of this great Arab man and boasted that he was his soldier.
And just think about it for a minute. Even if we accept all your propaganda. The situation we have is two-three years after the death camps were liberated and the whole world knew of the genocide of 6 million Jews, the Arabs tried to destroy the Jews in Israel (according to your propaganda, Arabs were not rejectionist from the 60s or something, but even if we accept that, that means that prior to that they wanted genocide).
..
it seems to me
11.07.2004 16:26
All this talk about asking Paslestinians and what have you is at best liberal hand wringing and at worst right wing division.
As a concerned individual I think the state of Israel should have sanctions imposed upon it for its disregard of international law and breaches of human rights. I also refuse to aid those who support the state of Israel and fund its regime of terror by refusing to give them my money.
(A)
some facts for the jew haters
11.07.2004 23:44
now take this in THE ARAB WORLD SEES ISRAEL AS A CANCER AND WANTS IT REMOVED. why do you people find that so hard, also whats the difference between standing outside m ans boycotting jewish goods and the nazis who stood outside shops in berlin jude shops? to me boycotting israeli goods is boycotting jewish goods(although you would be happy for the israeli arabs to lose jobs too.
you go on about internationoal laws i firmy belive if israel wasnt a jewish state you wouldnt give a toss its pure anti semetism, it has to be, there are far far worse things going on in other places yet you people dedicate you time to israel and destroying her israel is the size of wales.
israel is jewish land i have to use this argumenyt judea samari the west bank has no arab claim at all it was never palestinian where do you get this from?,
if i won the lottery i would invent a time machine id love to take you lot back just as far as 80-100 years ago you would see that the word 'palestinian'didnt exist.
anyway much more inportantly 200 of us are going to protest against quaradawi and demand livingstones resignation on monday meet london bridge station 2pm hope you will join us
im sure you will all support us zionists in getting rid of this evil bastard
nick
Dear Nick
12.07.2004 07:54
" THE ARAB WORLD SEES ISRAEL AS A CANCER AND WANTS IT REMOVED." you could also say
THE JEWISH WORLD SEES PALESTINE AS A CANCER AND WANTS IT REMOVED
The Sludge
Sanctions now
12.07.2004 08:37
That'd be a samll start........
freethepeeps
talk
12.07.2004 10:42
all this talk about what is best for palestinians is almost exclusively done by people who aren't palestinian. we should all be concerned about that. a boycott or sanctions sounds like a very good idea but it would only carry 'moral authority' with the explicit backing of the people who were going to be on the receiving end. palestinians would lose jobs afterall. do i want written statements from palestinians in support of sanctions / a boycott before i will support that action? yes. and then i will fully support it.
- -
Get a grip Nick
12.07.2004 10:57
I read alot of this crap on IMC (too much!) and none of you whingers ever explains WHY.
Nazis - yep they're sickos. Islamist extremists - yep the usual religious bollocks. Rich WASP bigots - yep they contain a lot of anti-semites.
But I'm sorry, the rest of us abhor racism and abhor the far right. There is no LOGICAL REASON for anti-semitism and it is NOT the reason for our opposition to fucking Israel, OK?
If Israel was an atheist/Christian/pagan/cat-worshipping/scientologist state and it behaved the way it does we would still oppose it.
Stop using your ethnicity as a set of moral blinkers and wake up to the fact that Israel is every bit as oppressive and murderous as South Africa was 15 years ago.
One more thing - I don't give a monkeys if "palestinian" is a new term or not. The fact is that there were already people living there and loads of other people from Russia, Europe and the US turned up and kicked them off it.
Quote the Old Testament all you like. Most people don't believe in fairy tales any more. Tough titty.
Calm down nobody hear "hates all jews" 'cos that's silly
...
12.07.2004 12:27
There are hundreds of villages that were depopulated during 1948, and the population became refugees. To deny a people their history is racism, pure and simple, and it is your position that is no different to the Nazis, not the position of people who want to boycott racist, apartheid states.
Or do you think people boycotting shops that sold South African goods was also similar to what the nazis did. I tell you what is similar to the nazis. Rounding people up into camps, and printing numbers on their arms. Holding Palestinian prisoners without charge. Arbitrarily destroying houses of families with all their possessions inside. Rounding Palestinians up into ghettos and building walls around them.
I tell you what is similar to nazism. Mindless nationalism, that holds one race higher than all other races. That dreams of a state for a chosen people, like the Aryan people, and wraps it in beautiful romantic imagery, whilst at the same time committing terrible crimes against a people viewed as little more than animals.
The Nazis didn't view themselves as criminal. They deceived themselves like you have deceived yourself. They followed a dream of the becoming of the Aryan people, they cried in operas, held deep pseudo-spiritual values in some cases, and the standard of life for many germans was very good, and they were taken in by the beauty of it all. But the same people who could cry in an opera could then go ahead to rape and murder the Jews, massacre the Roma, inflict torture and pain on countless people. The dream was not grounded in reality. The Aryan state was in fact monstrous, BUT BENEATH THE SURFACE, not up front.
If you can't see how this is relevant to zionism, and the psychological repression Israel inflicts on itself with regard to the suffering of the Palestinian people, then you will continue to deceive yourself, and contribute to greater human suffering, until reality catches up to you, and the consequences are felt.
Hermes
Why is hate filled shit like this still up?
12.07.2004 15:13
Anyway, what has the tosser to offer us, other than this crude suggestion that anyone who opposes rampant racist colonialism is anti-semitic
"could you please explain to me this, if england was to come under attack from say the scots and it was worse the the IRA ie, suicide bombs in the middle of lecister square, cafes in peckham getting blown to bits, snipers shooting at people from the hills of say shropshire, blowing up schoolbuses, what would you expect blair to do? the least i would expect is to bulid a bloody big wall around england to keep them out."
Except of course the wall is being built around the Palestinians - not the Israelis - and is designed to create walled enclaves (concentration camps) to keep the Palestinians in, whilst the settlers have free reign over the more recently stolen land............ the issue with Israel being built on the land that was stolen in 1948 is of course meant to be forgotten in polite discourse
Had the wall been built, on Israeli land, around Israel, then I am sure that the ICJ would not have been asked to rule on the matter in the first place.
"now take this in THE ARAB WORLD SEES ISRAEL AS A CANCER AND WANTS IT REMOVED"
Heh - that sounds just like the sentiments of Moshe Ya'alon in 2002, only he was referring to the Palestinians .............. If anyone can compile a list of the actions that Israel has undertaken at any time during it's short, turbulent existence to endear itself to the people of the Arab neighbourhood where it decided to extablish itself, it should make intersting reading............
Bombing, occupying and perpetually threatening your neighbours is not a means recommended by the Dale Carnegie Institute on "How to make friends....."
"why do you people find that so hard, also whats the difference between standing outside m ans boycotting jewish goods and the nazis who stood outside shops in berlin jude shops? to me boycotting israeli goods is boycotting jewish goods(although you would be happy for the israeli arabs to lose jobs too. "
Hmmm, if we want to think about anaologies of supporters of totalitarian regimes that thrive on propaganda, notions of racial purity and demonisation of difference shutting down businesses ......................... then I think that "Nick" is totally barking up the wrong tree - he should be examining the effects of curfews, seige and closure.......
As for "Jewish goods", it may do him good to understand a few things:
1) Not all Jews are Israelis - many Jews do not want to be associated with Israel thank you very much
2) Not all Israelis are Jewish, at least 20% are indigenous Arabs for example.....
The efforts of his ilk, crude propagandists for racist colonialism, tend to conflate the 2, which is pretty awful for those who reject the ethnically cleansed land that is Israel.
As for Israeli Arabs, they continue to suffer the disadvantage of being non-Jews in a Jewish State.
"you go on about internationoal laws i firmy belive if israel wasnt a jewish state you wouldnt give a toss its pure anti semetism, it has to be, there are far far worse things going on in other places yet you people dedicate you time to israel and destroying her israel is the size of wales."
It was also, up to 2004, the largest recipient of USAID - which must surely be of concern in a world where billions are hungry every day - it is also a country which has a history of ignoring UN Resolutions and getting away with it, and it is also the country that every other crooked regime in the world can point to as evidence of Western hypocrisy when we talk of commitment to human rights and International law.
"israel is jewish land"
much of which was stolen from the Palestinians in 1948..........
"i have to use this argumenyt judea samari the west bank has no arab claim at all it was never palestinian where do you get this from?,"
The West Bank and Gaza is home to indigenous peoples whose ties to the land go back for centuries. Prior to 1948 it was called Palestine - so I guess that the local people must have been Palestinians, even if they had Pan-Arab rather than nationalistic leanings.....
"if i won the lottery i would invent a time machine id love to take you lot back just as far as 80-100 years ago you would see that the word 'palestinian'didnt exist."
..........
Why does Indymedia persist in providing this kind of racist with a platform?
freethepeeps
2002 call for sanctions by Palestinian organisations
12.07.2004 15:20
Applied Research Institute Jerusalem (ARIJ)
Arab Center for Agricultural Development (ACAD)
BADIL Resource Center for Palestinian Residency and Refugee Rights
General Federation of Trade Unions in Palestine (GFTUP)
High Coordination Committee of the Local Committees for the Rehabilitation of the Disabled – West Bank
LAW – The Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human Rights and the Environment
Palestinian Center for Peace and Democracy (PCPD)
Palestinian Federation of Women Action Committees (PFWAC), Nablus
PNGO –Palestinian NGO Network
Palestinian Prisoners Society
Popular Committees of the Palestinian Refugees – West Bank and Gaza Strip
Residents of Destroyed Palestinian Cities and Villages in 1948 Palestine, Ramallah
Union of Agricultural Work Committees (UAWC)
Union of Health Care Committees
Union of Palestinian Medical Relief Committees (UPMRC)
Union of Youth Activity Centers – Palestine Refugee Camps (UYAC)
freethepeeps
you people are obsessed with israel
12.07.2004 16:43
1) the army are defending their citizens, that means they get intellegence about terroists, there hideouts , etc and they take action.this is in the form of maybe a target assasanation or destroying a house, what you dont see on tv is the fact that the house has bombs in it, or hamas have put lots of crying women there for pr.
at no time in the army did we sit down and say 'lets go and kill some palesinian kids today, it is a professional army made up of young jewish guys who on the whole have a decent moral upbringing.
im afraid that if the palestinians choose to bomb israel and shoot people they have to be dealt with, i can tell you the school text books we used to take from the kids were full of the most vile anti jewish stuff, you would not belive what these kids were being taught.
i would also advise you to hear walid shoebat an arab from jaffa who has since converted to christianity and will tell you about the so called throwing out of homes and so on, he will tell you in 1960s they all sung the jordain anthem at school and all of a sudden were told to be 'palestinian' by the way i never said arabs didnt live in those places i said jews have always lived there and did not just come from europe to diplace the palestinians.
but bk to the point each week at m and s you have 20 or so people and your pr is terrible look at it, firstly you have commies there wearing red armbands and waving flags of chez guvara, why? commies dont support palestinian nationlism do they?.
second some of the younger arab guys put headscarfs on and chant victory to the intifada and run about with toy guns. do you think this is good pr?
third 90percent of you are white and british where are all the muslims?
my point is this it is anti jewish ness without a doubt you can deny it all you want .
finally i really cant take you that seriously when you put on your lraflets that we are the bnp is this because we proudly fly a british flag if it is that is laughable
nick
you nick are obsessed with israel
12.07.2004 17:06
and you now work as a idf troll agent provocateur, why world someone with your boot camp background be on this website troll troll troll troll troll ...............
The Sludge
Racist colonialism is abhorrent.....
12.07.2004 17:11
Did you read what I said?
I'll repeat it for you Nick.
NOT ALL JEWS ARE ISRAELIS
NOT ALL ISRAELIS ARE JEWS.
And heres an article for those who get a leetle uncomfortable with a pro-Palestinian position.
Get off that fence and kick Nick in the nuts - NOW!!!!
freethepeeps
m and s thursdays
12.07.2004 17:42
come down if you want victory to the intifada you know where we stand
nick
Ah Nick
12.07.2004 18:05
When they stop prevaricating while Israel steps up the genocidal programme, and holds 2 fingers up the rest of the world.
Anyways, we all know that the cops side with the boys from Betar ................. and how you guys love screaming that you're being victimised............
When people stop with the "balance" and come down on the side of justice and against the racist colonialists, that'll be the best kick in the nuts you can ever have.
You filthy little fascist you..........
freethepeeps
free the peeps
12.07.2004 19:58
you dont want to boycott saudi for persecuting women
no no you pick on jewish israel yet im a facist?.
why am i a facist i think arabs have a right to live in israel ive never ever said different.
by the way did you say genocide!
let me explain what genocide is and what the nazis did.
they managed to kill 6 million jews stripping them naked shaving their hair off gassing them and making soap out of skin, oh lets not forget the medical experiments.
now what bit of that has israel done? demolished some houses and killed some bombers and some innocents which im soryy happens in war.
so to compare the nazis and genocide with a democracy surrounded by 500x the amount of people most of who want the country dead is a little over the top do you not think?.
nick
To the genocide denier .........
12.07.2004 22:55
Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means ANY of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
And I'm so glad that you allow the idea that indigenous people can live in the "Jewish Homeland" that was created through ethnic cleansing ............
Betar supporting Right of Return, who'd have believed it?
Blimey!!!!!!
freethepeeps
genocide
13.07.2004 01:37
as for israel being created in 48, no it dosent wash ,israel was created 4000 years ago my friend
nick
The victims of racist colonialism .........
13.07.2004 06:11
Israel, the racist colonialist did indeed come about through the invention of zionism within the last century, the fucked up intervention of Lord Balfour in 1917 and the Nakba of 1948.
It has less than little to do with the fables in the Torah - did you forget what your audience here was? You're a shite propagandist.......
Why are staging an occupation of Indymedia anyway?
And don't try telling me that you haven't got your own websites - or that you need this one because God gave it you..........
freethepeeps
Heh, suddenly the Palestinians do exist
13.07.2004 06:52
Try thinking a few things through Nick
1) Resistance to racist occupation has often involved violence - that is not the same as genocide - there is no central Palestinian strategy to commit genocide, it is the actions of militant extremists - there is however an Israeli one, where the militant extremists are in power.
2) The population of the West Bank an Gaza is roughly half that of Israel - and 3x as may Palestinians have died - if you therefore are suggesting that Palestinians are committing "slow genocide" you are inadvertantly admitting that Israel is committing genocide at 6x that rate.
3) Palestinians do not meet ANY of the other criteria, Israel meets 4 of the 5.
freethepeeps
deflection or discussion?
13.07.2004 08:07
The jews are not descended from apes and pigs. They are, like every other HUMAN on this planet, descended from apes alone. Maybe there is a strain of apes that were kosher apes, i don`t know.
A tribe that calls itself the "chosen race" was always going to get some hassle, paricularly when they met a tribe that called itself the "master race". God`s joke eh?
This thread is about boycotting the products of zionist enterprise.
I already do.
I always will.
I encourage others.
Squeeze israeli cashflow. Take their advocados and s-q-u-e-e-z-e- them.
Take their grapes, and s-q-u-e-e-z-e them.
Their vegetables, s-q-u-e-e-z-e-.
Supermarkets operate on very low margins. From 24 advocados, perhaps only 2 or 3 damaged fruits will erode the profit margin.
Supermarkets are only interested in profit. Unprofitable lines are not re-ordered.
Alternatives? Other suggestions relevant to the topic of this thread, which is: ". that a boycott is legitimate means of eradicating the military might of the aggressor state of israel."
NOT whether or not to boycott, but HOW.
b.t. fish
Nice try
13.07.2004 08:13
Yes, there are many islamic countries that need a firm kick in the BALLS (masculine), but moral relativism is the lowest and least effictive form of argument.
Do you - the israel loving minority - really subscribe to an argument that is little more than the playground justification of: 'he did it so why can't I'?
If you do - why bother with all the fancy and spurious argument that such state sponsored organisations as Betar regularly fill the wire with?
The answer is glaringly obvious - they need the cover, knowing that a straight 'we are the master race/choosen ones and we have the power to dominate so we will' argument will quickly show that such power and comfortable position under the wing of a non-existant sky ghost are both temporary and illusionary.
The body politic of the world does not allow for such cancerous nonsense to prevail (not without a fight) - you zionists are merly the vector for a dis-ease and will eventually come to the same sticky end as other manifestations of disfunctional outlooks.
We must hasten this end.
Boycott what you can, destroy the physical means of support for the racist state that is present day israel.
There are plenty of israelis (jew, muslim, christian and those odd little sects that hover between the three) that are working for a harmonious future where the concept of god can be manifested as the love of life rather than the fear of loss.
We must contact and show our love for these people.
And in the meantime an almost any means necessary approach to the immeadiate problems is required. Fences are weak and uncomfortable places to rest especially when shaken regularly.
Confrontation not equi-distance.
jackslucid
e-mail:
jackslucid@hotmail.com
Boycott yes - including Caterpillar
13.07.2004 08:31
Another good game in supermarkets - load up your trolley with 100% Israeli produce, get it all checked through, then get a friend to come up and say "DO YOU KNOW THAT THESE GOODS FUND APARTHEID AND OCCUPATION - THESE GRAPES ARE ISRAELI, THESE HERBS ARE ISRAELI" - it gets the point across to other shoppers and if it happens often enough, supermarkets will look elsewhere for their sunshine fruits ...................
I've finished with Betar Nick for now - he's really crap at what he does......
freethepeeps
im crap at what i do
13.07.2004 10:55
1) about us being bnp
2) you report lies about the numbers we have each week
3) you say we threaten you (thats never happened)
4) you call israel racist i still dont get it, in israel there as you say are people of all religeons living and working yet in syria, saudi etc and even jordan jews cant buy property you cant be a christian in a lot of these places never mind a jew, that is pure racist yet you dont call for a boycott of their goods.
also the palestinians beat gays and dont let jews worship in rammalah and nablus as far as im aware, as for the million living in the west bank they cant live with 7000settlers so who does that make racsist.?
bigfish you are just a jew hater your comments stink of anti semitism i dont belive the jew is the chosen people not at all.
but palestinians belive they will go to god and have the pick of the virgins if they kill me, so who is racsist?
are you denying that palestinians.
1)murder jews daily
2) want israel destroyed
3) kill for allah
4) teach kids hatred
5) put kids in the front line
6) hide bombs in houses
7) run through streets like maniacs chanting death to jews
8) brainwash 20year old boys and disgustingly girls and kids to do the killin?
9) hang so called collabarators
10) kidnapp young jewish girls after befreinding them .
ive never heard any of you say a bad thing about these arabs yet i bet none of you are arab or even muslim
i would bet money you have some if only a tiny anti jewish bone in your body
also you keep saying betar do you think betar who consist of about 3 people in the uk are the only people who support israel, i am not a member of betar
i do support the fence for security and i certainly dont support a palestinian state as i know they would go all out to attack the rest of israel as they have often said they want tel aviv haifa etc, and if you think the torah is fable and have no religeous belives at all you have no right commenting on the subject as religeon plays a massive part
nick
Ma Fish Falastin
13.07.2004 11:58
your boycott = pissing in the wind
The last two posts are straight outa the playground
13.07.2004 13:24
losers
Hmm...
13.07.2004 14:38
squishing stuff (hee hee hee!) in a supermarket is not at all pathetic or childish
do you have any idea of how much wastage supermarkets allow for? You'd have to get arrested for criminal damage a hundred times a day before they'd even take notice.
Pro-palis live in a fantasy world where they think that the Arab settlers squatting on Israeli land care about something other than killing Jews. Either that, or the pro-Palis approve of killing Jews. Either way, they need to grow up, to be better informed, and to stop their support for Arab neo-nazis.
ma fish falastin
Little thought experiment . . .
13.07.2004 14:57
Swap 'Arab' and 'Jew' around in the above sentence and tell me it wouldn't be antisemitic. Strange how zionists are blind to their racism, resorting to arguments about how nasty arab nationalism is. Nationalism* is nasty in ALL its forms. None of this justifies the ongoing war crimes by Israel in Palestine, or for that matter attacks on Israeli civilians by militants. END THE OCCUPATION! (of Palestinian land by Israel for you strangely inverted zionist trolls)
* meaning the political doctrine that the imagined community of the nation (usually ethnically defined) should be congruent with the political state.
antifascist
...
13.07.2004 16:28
When a Jewish settler can drive from an ILLEGAL SETTLEMENT in the West Bank to Jerusalem in 15 minutes, and for a Palestinian it can take 6 hours, because the roads have been destroyed or blocked, tell me who is racist.
I have seen the Star of David painted on the doors of Palestinian houses, much like the Nazis painted swastikas on Jewish houses. I have seen Israeli soldiers hold down a friend of mine and kick him in the ribs, because he looked Palestinian. They fired a tear-gas canister at myself and the medical team I was working with, AFTER we had talked to them, just as we were leaving the home of a family in need of aid, just for fun, you know. In the narrow streets of Nablus it followed us around a couple of corners.
I saw the soldiers occupy homes, and then not let the family leave, because they act as human shields, while the snipers take up position upstairs. I saw cars run over by Israeli tanks, just for fun. I saw the main street in Nablus completely dug up, so people could not travel by vehicle from one side of the city to another, including Ambulances!!! I rode in an ambulance once. Because I was white, the ambulance had an easier time of it. But once, we carried a pregnant woman to hospital. We were stopped by an Israeli APC, that barked orders at us through its loudspeaker, to open the back of the ambulance while it shined a giant spotlight in at the terrified form of Palestinian woman, sweating and panting and crying because she was about to give birth. The way they shouted at us, and treated us with such disdain, it came to mind the way you see the Nazi's portrayed in film and cinema.
I spoke to numerous Palestinians about the way they were tortured in custody. Beaten, humiliated, forced into uncomfortable positions, denied access to toilets so they had to excrete onto themselves. I have heard of things more akin to the photos we saw coming out of Abu Ghraib as well. I was reminded, when I saw those photos, of things I'd been told by Palestinians.
Tell me, Nick, is it Palestinians torturing Israelis? Who is occupying who? Who lives in wealth and prosperity, and who lives on the brink of starvation? Who has the worlds third strongest militiary, and who has rocks and home-made explosives?
But you twist an exaggerate the truth. For example you claim the Palestinians 'murder jews daily'. Tell me, who did they kill today? Or yesterday. A couple of days ago there was a bombing, and a young soldier was killed. How many days passed between that incident, and the rocket attack previous. Now compare those numbers with the numbers of Palestinians who have been killed, ALMOST EVERY DAY. In fact, I can pretty much remember all the Palestinian attacks on Israeli targets going back to last summer. But I can't remember the incidents in which Palestinians have been killed BECAUSE THEY ARE ALMOST COUNTLESS!!!
So yes, I do dispute the claim the Palestinians 'murder Jews daily'
And all the rest of your claims are disgusting generalisations, both racist, and a distortion of the truth. For example, what if I were to say
'DO you deny the Jews want to destroy the Al Aqsa mosque and build the third temple'
how would you respond to that? It is a disgusting generalisation, that fails to take into account a spectrum of opinion, and the humanity of individuals.
'DO you deny the Israelis want to expel all the Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza'
'Kill for JHVH'
'Force 18 year-old kids to serve in the Israeli Armed Forces, and send them to prison if they refuse'
I could go on like that, but it's not helpful, just like your comments are not helpful. You seem scared to address the heart of the issue, and resort to parroting off mindless propaganda.
FINALLY, in regards to your comments about what we think about Arabs. If you were ever to meet me, and maybe we will, I will go on about the corruption and simple evil of the Saudi regime for ages. A regime that imposes the strictest, most disturbing religious law upon its people, while its leadership live in disgusting opulence, taking drugs, cavorting with prostitutes. And all of it happily financed and backed up by the US of A.
I am very happy to boycott the US oil companies that support all this. Done and done.
Hermes
hermes's argument
13.07.2004 18:06
let me do my best in my english/israeli type to pick through your argument , you seem like a caring enough sort of bloke but again you read and watch too much tv.
first remember i have served in the IDF and i have to say( and i served in gaza ) THAT MY EXPERIENCES WERE VERY DIFFERENT)
but before i go on remember this whatever the idf do they are fighting an evil terror campaing and there are no rules, its not a normal war, you cannot blame israel for turning the land into milk and honey and having a fine army, you also cannot blame israel for the 'palestinians ' being poor stop blaming the jews, look at arafat for a change.
you think all pallys are poor there is much weath with a few people and america gives them a load too, if they choose to piss it up with bombs and text books proclaiming that jews are dogs, that is not our fault.
now to your email.
i am not denying the history i am stating a 100%fact that the people who call themselves palestinian are not from the areas of gaza and the west bank they are almost wholy syrian and jordainian and from other arab nations, they have ended up there, tell me where the claim for a plaestinian state was in 67 when jordan controlled the west bank?.,
all i am saying is no it is not an occupation as the area is israel judea samaria the west bank has the tomb of patriacts abraham issac jacob and hebron is one of the oldest holiest jewish cities in the world.
as for the driving, im sorry if an arab has to drive 6hours but i support any means in keeping israelis safe and if a fence keeps terror out no normal person would be against it.
the star of david painted on doors, im not having that we would have been court marshalled for that its crap. let me give you one example of how these stories get otu, we found a bomb in a house and 2 hamas members hiding there, the house was destroyed the hamas and bomb taken, this was on israeli tv,
we monitored palestinian tv and the bbc where the arbs actully got a woman off the street told her to stand outside the house and cry!.that is a fact.
as for you lot getting kicked im sorry but israeli officers take no shit it is hard enough having to deal with terrorists so when a bunch of long haired/lesbian hippys start standing in the way speaking in english accents, id give the fuckers a kicking too the moral is if you dont want to get a kicking work at tesco, dont go to gaza mate.
all this about soldiers going into houses pregnant women bla bla, im sorry again if the arabs stop terror this will allcease.
there are hundreds of shooting incidents and bomb disposals that you will never hear and see on british tv, so yes people die every day.
do i deny the alasua mosque should be destroyed
shall i be honest no i dont its an evil place where people preach hatred of jews .
at the end of the day, if the arabs stop terror they will be treated as normal human beings.
its simple really isnt it teach their kids love not hate, and stop blaming israel for all their problems israel just wants to get on with its life without the risk of dying each time you go on a bus or see a film.
nick the zionist
your whole argument rests ...
13.07.2004 19:15
Utter crap.
Attempting to re-write historical fact to suit your political needs is highly reminiscent of the propagander of the third reich (they postulated an ancient and superior people as their ancestors, a people blessed with superior powers and rights by pagan gods and went to extrordinary lengths to 'prove' this - such as book burning, the haressment and killing of intellectuals and academics)
The same old pathetic lies come out:
'a people for a land for a land without people'
'no land was seized - all bought at [above] market prices'
'the non existant people that sold their property were forced by arab governments to flee and adopt the identy of palestinians'
'the non existant non palestinians in the british mandate of palestine, before selling their land to the enemy first randomly attacked them'
'the non existant people of an empty land deliberately endured the poverty of refugee camps just to spite their enemy because they irrationally hate them, rather than acknowledge that they were actually syrian etc'
'the israeli forces were brutally attacked first and that is why they had to take pre-emptive measures before it happened'
On and on the zionist machine goes - feed into it nobal aspirations and you get generatations of bigots and racist land grabbers
Feed into it a bitter and ghastly genocidal episode and you get a philosophy that mimics it.
Feed into it solid chronologiclly arranged fact and you get garbled 'pick n mix' fantasy.
That may work for those unfortunate enough to be raised in the closed world of fundamentalist settlers etc ...
... but not for those of us fully conversent with the twentith century and its myriad of communication and information storage technologies.
To us you appear utterly foolish and without guile - if not offensive and stupid.
I gave up laughing at the nonsense a while ago.
Reap what you sow.
jackslucid
e-mail:
jackslucid@hotmail.com
jack
13.07.2004 20:44
prove to me now 100% with no doubt that the area of gaza and judea samaria is palesinian land with a history of palestinian goverments ruling over a palestinian state with palestinian history and generations of a people called palestinians and i state now i will let you have that land call it palestine rip up the settlements and stop posting.
you must show me evidence that a nation and a people called palestinains come from those two ares.
forget the murder and brainwashing of todays palestinians
i want to see evidence from you that in 1947,37,27,17 and the 1800s and 200-1000 years ago there were palestinians.
if you can prove this beyond doubt i will give up my cause that the area is in fact israel as it was in the bible the torah and other scriptures..
and i mean evidence other then the name mandate palestine given by the british and the palestina word given by the romans this is not prove of an arab palestinian population
nick chaim israel chai
Lets get ...
13.07.2004 21:44
"prove to me now 100% with no doubt"
Such a task is not possible. For a start, you should ponder carefully on the nature of the difference between proof and evidence. Very few things/phenomena/events etc fall into the catagory of 'provable'. Most have to be content with an observance of the data, hypothetising on the evidence based on recogniable & repetitive patterns, predictive conclusions achieving degrees of acuracy etc etc.
Your "doubt" is your own affair and a matter for whatever conscience you possess. It is not my job to guide you to enlightenment, good mental health or any other state from which doubt is eradicated (although fundamentalist religion/political creed does a pretty good job of banishing doubt - and at great and grisly cost too).
And so to the gist of it:
From your remarks we are to understand that because the mention of israel in ancient texts, the presence of artifacts and the existance of traditions point towards an old israel - present day jewish people are correct and justified in annexing large swathes of a once biblical landscape? Further, the fact that your most important books give creedence to this historic fact is 'proof' of the predominance of [your] claims?
Well that seems a little on the contrived side, considering that there exists similar evidence pointing towards a continuous inhabitation of the area from people not calling themselves either jewish or palestinian, for at least the last 1500 years (post dating the eventual roman disapation). Try doing a search for Dr Albert Glock for example.
The fact that successive empiric overlords ruled various and shifting territories contigenous, overlapping, encorporating and inclusive of modern palestine is irrelivant. The people that used the land owned the land. Period. The fact that feudalism, nepotistic capitalism and fundamentalism seeks to annul such claims based on self interest is irrelivant.
Those people had rights intrinsic to all human beings and enshrined in international law.
You can not negate them through precedence, convienience, moral relativism, force, sky ghosts, racialist heirarchies or 50 years of brutal theft and murder.
You may be able to convince your self that it is ok, no 'doubt' your sky ghost gives you the green light ( ... I hear my favourite W.S.Burroughs quote again: 'never trust a religious S.O.B., not with g*d running shotgun telling yohim how to fuck you over on the deal'), the rest of us don't think so.
Your request was a lie based on a lie - you do not seek proof to withdraw your claims, and your claims are not based on proof. You seek to enforce your prejudices and not to rehabiltate them, to obtusificate the glaring injustice not to oppose them.
Request denied.
Be your own leader you feeble burke.
jackslucid
e-mail:
jackslucid@hotmail.com
your little though experiment
13.07.2004 22:53
The sentence would then read
"Pro-palis live in a fantasy world where they think that the Jew settlers squatting on Israeli land care about something other than killing Arabs"
Which sounds like a standard Indymedia post.
But at least we both agree that it's Israeli land.
ma fish falastin
oh jack
13.07.2004 23:01
you saypresent day jewish people are correct and justified in annexing large swathes of a once biblical landscape??
LARGE do you know how big the land is we are talking about?, its tiny israel is the size of wales, biblical israel included lots more land ie present day jordan saudi and so on, im not demanding that at all.are you saying israel has no right to exsist?
if you wanted to put it in really 3yeard old terms the jews were there way first before islam was a seed in gods groin.
from your typing i can see you are a well educated lefty very articulate much better then me, (these are the usual anti semites) i notice in m and s the worse abuse we get are from the british lefty intelects like you, the muslims actully normally have a good chat.
but to sum up even with all your fancy words you havent produced a shread of evidence that palestinians have a right to gaza or the west bank more then jews do, so really its 1-0 to me old boy, i of course could produce ample evidence that the area has always been israel and has always had a jewish population thus not an occupation.
nick
racist niggas
17.08.2004 09:33
Max