Lesbians and gay men from OutRage! and the Queer Youth Alliance joined
today’s demonstration in London to support the human rights of the
people of Palestine. But they also urged the Palestinian Authority to
halt the arrest, torture and murder of homosexuals.
today’s demonstration in London to support the human rights of the
people of Palestine. But they also urged the Palestinian Authority to
halt the arrest, torture and murder of homosexuals.
OutRage! joins the National Day of Action for Palestine
Gays attacked at Palestine rights protest
Attempt to silence debate on murder of gays
London – UK – 15 May 2004
Lesbians and gay men from OutRage! and the Queer Youth Alliance joined
today’s demonstration in London to support the human rights of the
people of Palestine. But they also urged the Palestinian Authority to
halt the arrest, torture and murder of homosexuals.
They marched with placards reading: "Israel: stop persecuting
Palestine! Palestine: stop persecuting queers!"
As soon as they arrived in Trafalgar Square to join the demonstration,
the gay protesters were surrounded by an angry, screaming mob of
Islamic fundamentalists, Anglican clergymen, members of the Socialist
Workers Party, the Stop the War Coalition, and officials from the
protest organisers, the Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC). They
variously attacked the gay activists as “racists”, “Zionists”, “CIA
and MI5 agents”, “supporters of the Sharon government” and “dividing
the Free Palestine movement”.
PSC organisers asked the gay activists to “stand at the back of the
demonstration”, and when they refused blocked their placards with
their own banners and shouted down the gay campaigners as they tried
to speak to journalists and other protesters.
Most people at the Palestine protest expressed no hostility towards
OutRage! and the Queer Youth Alliance. Some expressed positive
support.
”We call on the PLO and Palestinian Authority to condemn homophobia,
uphold queer human rights, and to order an immediate end to the abuse
of lesbian and gay Palestinians", said OutRage! protester, Brett
Lock.
"Having experienced the pain of homophobia, we deplore the suffering
inflicted on Palestinians by the Israeli government”.
"Both Islamophobia and homophobia are intolerable. Upholding the
principle of universal human rights, we support the human rights of
the people of Palestine. We call on the Palestinians to recognise the
human rights of gay Palestinians".
Another protester, Peter Tatchell, said:
"Gay Palestinians live in fear of arrest, detention without trial,
torture and execution at the hands of Palestinian police and security
services. They also risk abduction and so-called honour killing by
vengeful family members and vigilante mobs, as well as punishment
beatings and murder by Palestinian political groups such as Hamas and
Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement".
"These revelations come from the independent human rights watchdog,
B’Tselem, and from the Israeli gay rights groups Aguda and Open House,
which help gay Palestinian refugees".
The abuse of Palestinian gays has been confirmed by two senior
Palestine Liberation Organisation officials in conversations with
queer rights activist, Peter Tatchell.
"Both officials expressed personal regret concerning these abuses but
said their liberal views were not shared by the majority of PLO
officials and supporters", said Mr Tatchell.
"For over 30 years I have supported the Palestinian struggle for
national liberation, but it would be wrong to remain silent while the
PLO, Hamas and the Palestinian Authority are abducting, brutalising
and murdering lesbian and gay Palestinians. Freedom for Palestine must
be freedom for all Palestinians - straight and gay.
“Unless we challenge the abuse of queer human rights now, this violent
homophobia will become entrenched in a new Palestinian state and
Palestinian leaders will be emboldened to abuse the rights of other
Palestinian citizens", said Tatchell.
Attempt to silence debate on murder of gays
London – UK – 15 May 2004
Lesbians and gay men from OutRage! and the Queer Youth Alliance joined
today’s demonstration in London to support the human rights of the
people of Palestine. But they also urged the Palestinian Authority to
halt the arrest, torture and murder of homosexuals.
They marched with placards reading: "Israel: stop persecuting
Palestine! Palestine: stop persecuting queers!"
As soon as they arrived in Trafalgar Square to join the demonstration,
the gay protesters were surrounded by an angry, screaming mob of
Islamic fundamentalists, Anglican clergymen, members of the Socialist
Workers Party, the Stop the War Coalition, and officials from the
protest organisers, the Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC). They
variously attacked the gay activists as “racists”, “Zionists”, “CIA
and MI5 agents”, “supporters of the Sharon government” and “dividing
the Free Palestine movement”.
PSC organisers asked the gay activists to “stand at the back of the
demonstration”, and when they refused blocked their placards with
their own banners and shouted down the gay campaigners as they tried
to speak to journalists and other protesters.
Most people at the Palestine protest expressed no hostility towards
OutRage! and the Queer Youth Alliance. Some expressed positive
support.
”We call on the PLO and Palestinian Authority to condemn homophobia,
uphold queer human rights, and to order an immediate end to the abuse
of lesbian and gay Palestinians", said OutRage! protester, Brett
Lock.
"Having experienced the pain of homophobia, we deplore the suffering
inflicted on Palestinians by the Israeli government”.
"Both Islamophobia and homophobia are intolerable. Upholding the
principle of universal human rights, we support the human rights of
the people of Palestine. We call on the Palestinians to recognise the
human rights of gay Palestinians".
Another protester, Peter Tatchell, said:
"Gay Palestinians live in fear of arrest, detention without trial,
torture and execution at the hands of Palestinian police and security
services. They also risk abduction and so-called honour killing by
vengeful family members and vigilante mobs, as well as punishment
beatings and murder by Palestinian political groups such as Hamas and
Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement".
"These revelations come from the independent human rights watchdog,
B’Tselem, and from the Israeli gay rights groups Aguda and Open House,
which help gay Palestinian refugees".
The abuse of Palestinian gays has been confirmed by two senior
Palestine Liberation Organisation officials in conversations with
queer rights activist, Peter Tatchell.
"Both officials expressed personal regret concerning these abuses but
said their liberal views were not shared by the majority of PLO
officials and supporters", said Mr Tatchell.
"For over 30 years I have supported the Palestinian struggle for
national liberation, but it would be wrong to remain silent while the
PLO, Hamas and the Palestinian Authority are abducting, brutalising
and murdering lesbian and gay Palestinians. Freedom for Palestine must
be freedom for all Palestinians - straight and gay.
“Unless we challenge the abuse of queer human rights now, this violent
homophobia will become entrenched in a new Palestinian state and
Palestinian leaders will be emboldened to abuse the rights of other
Palestinian citizens", said Tatchell.
e-mail:
Homepage:
Comments
Hide the following 68 comments
Wrong demo
16.05.2004 14:19
No wonder people were pissed off!
tolerant straight person
And another thing...
16.05.2004 14:22
t.s.p.
did it happen Who dunnit ?
16.05.2004 14:59
sounds horrible if this post is true it's outrageous !!
interested
balance
16.05.2004 15:42
Aha - our criticisms have to be even handed? So next time Israel is criticised for something, people will make sure that any Palestinian trangressions will be noted?
sceptic
Being 'specific'
16.05.2004 16:18
And of course, by the same token, we won't expect to see any criticism of "Israel" either because not ALL Israelis support the Sharon Governmnet. Let's stop nitpicking and get to grips with the issue: yes, there's homophobia in Israel (as there is in the UK and most other countries) but it does not extend to the arbitrary imprisonment, torture and sanctioned murder of lesbian and gay people. Gay Palestinians seek asylum in Israel. Israeli cities host Gay Pride parades, but even that is peripheral: ALL Palestinians deserve to live free from the fear of prison, torture and death - not just SOME Palestinians.
Brett Lock
Good for outrage
16.05.2004 17:26
If and when there is a Palestinian state run by the PLO it will no doubt impose the will of international capital on the residents of their state in a more naked way than Israel -- it will be like what has happened in South Africa where the ANC has privatised the parts that aparthid couldn't reach.
Nationalism, be it in the form of anti-americianism or pro-palistinian has no answers -- it just serves to sustain capitalism though continued divide and rule tactics. Homophobia is just another divide and rule tool for capital.
No Borders! No Nations! No States and No Execptions!
nationalism sucks
Bandits Bandwagoning Protest For Their Own Ends...
16.05.2004 18:39
BTW, good luck with your mission to convince the entire arab world that homosexuality is normal and/or exceptable, something tells me your going to need it, especially after the next lot of photos to come out of Iraq !
Had you ever thought that your message may be seen as shoving 'western values' down their throat...(metaphorically of course) You must realise it will inflame the situation.
I only hope your death-wish obsession doesnt fuck the situation up and make it any worse that it already is !
Don't forget now will you (he who has so much to say) I'm looking forward to your response to my question above.
He who has an irrational 'fear' of homos' (apparently)
Nice One
16.05.2004 18:47
Dissenter
Reply from a "bandit" and a "homo"
16.05.2004 19:16
Or, perhaps you don't believe that lesbian and gay people deserve human rights, in which case, gee whiz, what can I say about you that your homophobic rant hasn't already said?
Brett Lock
Hey Bret
16.05.2004 20:17
Answer the question ! (Not some other imaginary question.)
I'm all against torture and murder regardles of a persons life style.
It's your timining that stinks.
Homophobe
Yeah how dare you gay rights activists go on about gay rights!
16.05.2004 20:50
What we need to do is get together a mob of right thinking people, you know, Islamic fundamentalists, Anglican clergymen, members of the Socialist Workers Party, the Stop the War Coalition, and officials from the protest organisers, the Palestine Solidarity Campaign. Then we can bully and abuse them arrogant queers demanding human rights.
We'll show those fuckers that they aren't welcome round here.
Paul
Timing
16.05.2004 20:54
Brett Lock
Fair play
16.05.2004 21:22
Chekov
Yea Yea...
16.05.2004 21:50
The question is:
Should the Palestinians (and the rest of the world) stop persecuting adult siblings who are in a loving monogamous relationship (i.e. - incest) as well as homosexuals ?
Homeophobe
Homophobes will be homophobes
16.05.2004 22:30
Will you be bringing up paedophilia and bestiality next?
Could you restrain your self-confessed homophobia for just long enough to be able to express in clear a cogent terms what your objections are?
Brett Lock
did this really happen?
16.05.2004 23:20
variously attacked the gay activists as “racists”, “Zionists”, “CIA and MI5 agents”, “supporters of the Sharon government” and “dividing the Free Palestine movement”.
I was in the Square from 12.30. Not aware of any of this happening. In the photograph no one seems bothered. There all looking the other way. Did the reporter ask everyone in 'screaming mob' to declare there affiliation.
.
Its just very odd timing
16.05.2004 23:44
It's a serious human rights issue, and I don't want to cheapen it with this comparision, but I want to illustrate a point. When I was in Qalqilia I went to the zoo ( the only zoo in the West Bank ). The animals were in a terrible condition. The bear had a miniscule cage, the lion looked malnourished, and children threw stones through the bars at the animals. The hippo had a tiny pond, with about 10 cm of water.
I was angry about the situation, and wanted to release the animals. But when I put it into context, the whole city is surrounded by a wall, and all the people are imprisoned, never mind just the animals. Should I have started an animal rights protest right there and then?
OK, so the treatment of homosexuals is a much bigger issue than that. It is an issue of human rights. But it is not as big an issue, even to homosexuals in the country, as the occupation is. A gay Palestinian has to suffer doubly. He is worried about his own community, and his sexuality being exposed, but more he is worred about the consequences the occupation has on his life, because he is still unable to work properly, his family members are still being shot or imprisoned, his house could still be demolished. He lives his day to day life with the occupation stifling every single thing he does.
What you have done, or are perceived as doing, with this protest is attaching equal importance and assigning equal blame on both issues, while a gay Palestinian ( and yes, I have met one, in Bethlehem. I even stayed in his house. ) will tell you that primarily, the occupation is the problem, and it needs to be dealt with first, because it is impossible to work on other issues while it is in place. The feminists of Palestine understand this. They work for womens rights, but primarily, they struggle against occupation, and earn respect for their position in that way.
FOr example, in this article, where is the talk about the way the occupation affects gay Palestinians? It simply looks like a way to attack Palestinians, and the demonstration, with no mention of the greater suffering Palestinians endure, queer and straight, because of the occupation.
I ask you to make your position clear on this issue. Are you genuinely concerned about the plight of the Palestinians under occupation? If you don't articulate this, it just looks like you're trying to stir trouble and sow the seeds of division. I'm not trying to accuse of deliberately doing that, but your demo can easily be perceived in that way, in what is a very tense time.
Hermes
Bad Timing?
17.05.2004 00:12
In fact, the PLO's own representative in the UK says, Afif Safieh, says on: "I do not consider it advisable to debate hierarchies of suffering. I do not know how to quantify pain or how to measure suffering...". Isn't that exactlky what you're doing?
You must have noticed that the OutRage! posters said: "Israel: Stop persecuting Palestinians" - yet you still say that OutRage! "no mention of the greater suffering Palestinians endure". That is a falsehood.
WHy can't both issues be addressed. All the critics seem to be saying that only *uncritical* support is not good enough. What's wrong with support that also calls for an acknowledgement of the human rights of others? Our goal has nothing to do with "sowing the seeds of division", it's goal is to ensure that queer Palestinians aren't fucking tortured and killed long after the occupation ends.
You may be willing to sacrifice the rights of one group for another, but we're not. How can you expect gay groups to show unqualified, uncritical solidarity with groups who are currently persecuting other gays even as they call for an end to their own persection. What respect can there be for a movement which will not respect the human rights of others? It is not OutRage! that is dividing "the movement", it is the willingness of some Palestinian supporters to overlook certain human rights abuses because they feel that queers are less imortant than other human beings. THAT is divisive.
Is it a way to attack Palestinians? Yes of course. Why? Because Palestinians need to be attacked over their treatment of their gay brethren. If they don't want to be attacked on this issue the solution is easy: stop persectuting queers and renounce homophobia.
Instead of expecting OutRage! not to criticise the torture and murder of queer Palestinians, STOP the torture and murders so there's nothing to criticise!
Brett Lock
Mass destruction in Gaza
17.05.2004 00:29
In the first 10 days of May, around 1700 people were made homeless by Israel's demolition policy in the occupied Gaza strip. With the latest wave of attacks the number must have risen to many thousands.
"The Apaches are shelling us right now, many many fragments and parts of injured people everywhere in the area, I wasn't able to identify the body of my relative who get killed, they brought him to the hospital as parts and fragments..."
.
Dillemma
17.05.2004 07:48
I have seen him and the groups with which he works tackle issues that are both marginal and of great importance.
I am not about to ignore this current effort of his, dispite its use as political capital by those completely disinterested in the outcome.
It has to be said that there are those willing to use the inevitable fall out and vigerous debate for their own ends - indeed there are a few of them making points here. However, putting aside the very real issue of gay rights for a moment, it is worth investigating the incident reported more deeply.
Yes the timing was bad - thousands left homeless by the criminal actions of an occupying power little different in philosophy and effect from the nazies, children visciously slain for the crime of appearing in the crosshairs of military snipers etc - but then the timing of these issues are always bad. I've never seen this issue tackled calmly and reasonably at first - homophobia is deep rooted, not only in culture but in the pschye also. When liberated, culture is more dynamic and the psyche more open and loving, especially towards its self.
Whilst I can understand the appeal of a heirachy of suffering, it is a mistake to attempt to catagorise human experience too much this way.
Yes we would like to see Palestine liberated in every sense, the question is how?
Added to that, I don't see Tatchell and those in support of gay rights dissapearing or appearing selectively, so I say to those in doubt of his motives, its ok. The man is sincere and correct.
I somewhat doubt though the easy accusation of 'Islamic fundamentalists, Anglican clergymen, members of the Socialist Workers Party, the Stop the War Coalition, and officials from the protest organisers, the Palestine Solidarity Campaign' systematically turning on the new protestors - the language smacks of opportunism and a predetermined outcome.
This won't be an easy debate to have - but it has to be had.
We are not about to abandon our gay brothers and sisters in Palestine any more than we will abandon the emergence of a viable Palestine in general.
The issues are tied, but the overarching issue still has to be resisting the destruction of life property and hope by a rapacious occupying terrorist government, bent on colonising the land and dispossing of the people as if they were lower lifeforms - a racist supremacist outlook that expresses exactly the same type of contempt that some have for different expressions of sexuality.
Stand firm all - find a hand to link to - solidarity will triumph, division will lead you round in ever decreasing circles.
jackslucid
e-mail:
jackslucid@hotmail.com
Thanks Jack
17.05.2004 09:08
The point still stands, though, that at this moment in time, in Gaza, Palestinians of all ages, genders and sexuality are facing a much more significant problem, which perhaps you hadn't predicted before you turned up at the demonstration. Scores of people are being killed and hundreds of families being made homeless.
I'd like to talk about the feminists of Palestine, because I think they're the best comparison. Women's rights are also an issue in parts of Palestine, but there are some very strong women who fight for these rights, and the way they earn respect is struggling as women , under the banner of feminism, against the occupation. They don't march under the banner of 'Israel end the occupation; Palestine stop discrimination of women'. It is very difficult to change the culture when facing the problems of occupation. What tends to happen, in fact, is that the hardship brought about by occupation makes the Palestinians more conservative.
For example, Qaliqilia used to be a fairly liberal town. It sits right by the green line, and during the Oslo process Israeli's used to visit, maybe do shopping, trading. Wearing western style clothing, holding hands....
Since the most recent problems, though, Qalqilia is known as a very conservative town, and for me even to walk at night with a woman, just the two of us, was seen with disapproval. The hardships it faces is unique, the people are very frustrated, because they are surrounded by a wall, stuck in a ghetto. The people turn more to religion, as their only hope against these problems.
It's not just an issue of homosexuality in Palestine. Heterosexual sex outside of marriage is completely taboo as well, with serious consequences. Remember that liberal sexuality is associated with the West, and it is the West that is behind the occupation and the terrible suffering these people endure.
I think the best model is that of Jewish activists. For many Palestinians, the only Jew they have ever met is the one pointing an M-16 at their head, or demolishing their house with a bulldozer. Anti-semitism does exist. However, when so many Jewish people from all over the world come to Palestine and work with Palestinians, this prejudice is challenged, and Palestinians have learned to make the distinction between Jews and the Israeli army.
If openly gay people are seen visibly campaigning on behalf of the Palestinians, then homophobic attitudes will be challenged.
I hope my writing is helpful.
Hermes
An issue of timing, and other concerns
17.05.2004 10:58
However, let me make a few points in response.
We're well aware of the scale and significance of the problem faced by the majority of people in Palestine. In fact, Peter Tatchell was one of the signatories of the recent call to boycott Israeli products.
(see:
But you fail to explain how showing support tempered with one important criticism undermines the total weight of support. In fact, how could a gay rights group show solidarity with the campaign *without* mentioning the horrors inflicted on many lesbian and gay Palestinians? It is important to note that we are not challenging mere "discrimination" or "homophobia" - we are challenging the arbitrary imprisonment, torture and murder of homosexual Palestinians by the PA with the support of the PLO. How can anyone in good conscience oppose the Israeli treatment of Palestinians without being critical of the fact that the Palestinians are meeting out *exactly the same treatment* to another group? How can gay people uncritically campaign for freedom for Palestine knowing full well that they would not be free in a Free Palestine?
You claim that it is not possible to "change the culture when facing problems of occupation". I would argue that this is *exactly* the time when people should be confronted with their own abuses of Human Rights because this is when they'd be most empathetic to the suffering of others. A case in point is the Post-Apartheid Constitution in South Africa which outlaws discrimination on every level, including sexual-orientation. Nelson Mandela explained it by saying that a country with such a turbulent and painful history of discrimination simply could not tolerate it any longer no matter what form it took. Archbishob Desmond Tutu has said that the persecution of lesbian and gay people is as bad as Apartheid. He would not make this statement lightly.
You also seem to suggest that a free people are more open to tolerance. This s simply not born out by the evidence. Zimbabwe, a country which was liberated a quarter of a century ago has seen a dramatic increase in homophobia and persecution of gay people. The same has happened in Namibia. South Africa stands alone in that region as a country free from all discrimination *precisely* because the issues were not divided into heirarchies and gay anti-Apartheid activists questioned the ANC's homophobia, leading ultimately to a change of heart.
Furthermore, Saudi Arabia, one of the richest countries in the region has the worst human rights records: gay Saudis are routinely executed. Homosexuality carries the death penalty. Persecution of gays in Egypt is on the up and up. So clearly the expression of deadly homophobia and gay persecution in Palestine has nothing at all to do with its status as an occupied territory. I would strongly argue that if Palestine wants the uncritical, unequivocal support it needs, it should clean up its own Human Rights act, not expect others to be apologists for its actions.
Let me tell you another story which speaks to your assertion that if openly gay people were seen campaigning for Palestine it would challenge homophobia.
Peter Tatchell was very involved in the 1970 in fund-raising for Robert Mugabe's Zanu-PF movement. When Tatchell met Mugabe for the first time, he introduced himself and told Mugabe about his involvement in the Free Zimbabwe movement. Mugabe thanked him profusely for his support, but when Tatchell told him that he was a gay man, Mugabe recoiled in horror and had Tatchell escorted from his presence.
Still, you don't seem to explain why OutRage! was not being supportive. The banner called on Israel to stop the persecution of Palestinians? How is that "unsupportive"? How do you see that as openly gay people NOT visibly campaigning on behalf of justice for Palestine?
Why also, do you feel that gay people should uncritically support Palestine in the vague hope that a free Palestine will be grateful enough to support gay rights? Surely the same argument could be made that Palestine should cease it's persecution of gay people in order to maximise it's international support? Of course you don't and the reason is simple. Queers are a minority, and it is better for you to be in solidarity with a much bigger contingent of gay-murdering persecutors. That's why it's the gays that are accused of being "divisive" rather than the homophobes. No one is saying to these other groups "your homophobia is dividing the movement". It's much easier to sweep the queers under the carpet or demand that they not complain too loudly about the torture and murder of other queers.
Do you know what else would challenge homophobic attitudes? If straight people would sometimes stick up for gays. I doubt anyone has even had a quiet word with the Palestinian leadership over their treatment of gays. If they have, I'd ike to hear about it.
And now to the issue of timing. Is there anyone reading this discussion who would be prepared to picket the PA/PLO offices in London calling on them to review their treatment of lesbian and gay Palestinians on any *other* day of the year?
Where is the mass demonstration to free the lesbians and gays of Saudi Arabia? Where is the mass boycott call of Egypt over the arrests and torture of dozens of gay men this year, and last year, and the year before that? Answer: there is none, because we queers are a small minority and other issues are always more important or more significant or whatever... That is why we are still persecuted and murdered with impugnity in many parts of the globe... and that is also why whenever we open our mouths to protest we are shouted down and told to shut up... because... something... is ... always... more... important... isn't it!?
Brett Lock
Bad timing, and other issues
17.05.2004 11:25
However, let me make a few points in response.
We're well aware of the scale and significance of the problem faced by the majority of people in Palestine. In fact, Peter Tatchell was one of the signatories of the recent call to boycott Israeli products.
(see:
But you fail to explain how showing support tempered with one important criticism undermines the total weight of support. In fact, how could a gay rights group show solidarity with the campaign *without* mentioning the horrors inflicted on many lesbian and gay Palestinians? It is important to note that we are not challenging mere "discrimination" or "homophobia" - we are challenging the arbitrary imprisonment, torture and murder of homosexual Palestinians by the PA with the support of the PLO. How can anyone in good conscience oppose the Israeli treatment of Palestinians without being critical of the fact that the Palestinians are meeting out *exactly the same treatment* to another group? How can gay people uncritically campaign for freedom for Palestine knowing full well that they would not be free in a Free Palestine?
You claim that it is not possible to "change the culture when facing problems of occupation". I would argue that this is *exactly* the time when people should be confronted with their own abuses of Human Rights because this is when they'd be most empathetic to the suffering of others. A case in point is the Post-Apartheid Constitution in South Africa which outlaws discrimination on every level, including sexual-orientation. Nelson Mandela explained it by saying that a country with such a turbulent and painful history of discrimination simply could not tolerate it any longer no matter what form it took. Archbishob Desmond Tutu has said that the persecution of lesbian and gay people is as bad as Apartheid. He would not make this statement lightly.
You also seem to suggest that a free people are more open to tolerance. This s simply not born out by the evidence. Zimbabwe, a country which was liberated a quarter of a century ago has seen a dramatic increase in homophobia and persecution of gay people. The same has happened in Namibia. South Africa stands alone in that region as a country free from all discrimination *precisely* because the issues were not divided into heirarchies and gay anti-Apartheid activists questioned the ANC's homophobia, leading ultimately to a change of heart.
Furthermore, Saudi Arabia, one of the richest countries in the region has the worst human rights records: gay Saudis are routinely executed. Homosexuality carries the death penalty. Persecution of gays in Egypt is on the up and up. So clearly the expression of deadly homophobia and gay persecution in Palestine has nothing at all to do with its status as an occupied territory. I would strongly argue that if Palestine wants the uncritical, unequivocal support it needs, it should clean up its own Human Rights act, not expect others to be apologists for its actions.
Let me tell you another story which speaks to your assertion that if openly gay people were seen campaigning for Palestine it would challenge homophobia.
Peter Tatchell was very involved in the 1970 in fund-raising for Robert Mugabe's Zanu-PF movement. When Tatchell met Mugabe for the first time, he introduced himself and told Mugabe about his involvement in the Free Zimbabwe movement. Mugabe thanked him profusely for his support, but when Tatchell told him that he was a gay man, Mugabe recoiled in horror and had Tatchell escorted from his presence.
Still, you don't seem to explain why OutRage! was not being supportive. The banner called on Israel to stop the persecution of Palestinians? How is that "unsupportive"? How do you see that as openly gay people NOT visibly campaigning on behalf of justice for Palestine?
Why also, do you feel that gay people should uncritically support Palestine in the vague hope that a free Palestine will be grateful enough to support gay rights? Surely the same argument could be made that Palestine should cease it's persecution of gay people in order to maximise it's international support? Of course you don't and the reason is simple. Queers are a minority, and it is better for you to be in solidarity with a much bigger contingent of gay-murdering persecutors. That's why it's the gays that are accused of being "divisive" rather than the homophobes. No one is saying to these other groups "your homophobia is dividing the movement". It's much easier to sweep the queers under the carpet or demand that they not complain too loudly about the torture and murder of other queers.
Do you know what else would challenge homophobic attitudes? If straight people would sometimes stick up for gays. I doubt anyone has even had a quiet word with the Palestinian leadership over their treatment of gays. If they have, I'd ike to hear about it.
And now to the issue of timing. Is there anyone reading this discussion who would be prepared to picket the PA/PLO offices in London calling on them to review their treatment of lesbian and gay Palestinians on any *other* day of the year?
Where is the mass demonstration to free the lesbians and gays of Saudi Arabia? Where is the mass boycott call of Egypt over the arrests and torture of dozens of gay men this year, and last year, and the year before that? Answer: there is none, because we queers are a small minority and other issues are always more important or more significant or whatever... That is why we are still persecuted and murdered with impugnity in many parts of the globe... and that is also why whenever we open our mouths to protest we are shouted down and told to shut up... because... something... is ... always... more... important... isn't it!?
Brett Lock
reasonable people wanted
17.05.2004 12:40
the voice of common sense
reply
17.05.2004 13:28
Personally I do not think the term nazi is a good one,racist might be a better word.
I think gays are right to hightlight the attitude to gays.
neverthe less
WELL DONE TO ALL WHO DEMONSTRATED
f
Melanie Phillips joins Indymedia
17.05.2004 13:28
"As soon as they arrived in Trafalgar Square to join the demonstration, the gay protesters were surrounded by an angry, screaming mob of Islamic fundamentalists, Anglican clergymen, members of the Socialist Workers Party, the Stop the War Coalition, and officials from the protest organisers, the Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC). They variously attacked the gay activists as “racists”, “Zionists”, “CIA and MI5 agents”, “supporters of the Sharon government” and “dividing the Free Palestine movement”.
Owing to her renowned modesty she didn't actually put her name to the article but by accusing groups who never act together of, er, acting together she left her characteristic hallmark: bullshit.
Mark Elf
Jews sans frontieres
Mark
e-mail:
levi9909@aol.com
Homepage:
http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com
Captured on film
17.05.2004 13:49
If "Arabs, Muslims and the left" were embarrassed, that is because some of their number chose to behave in the way they did on Saturday. They weren't forced to be aggressive and abusive in front of the media. They didn't even have good reason.
What exactly is wrong with the slogan: "Israel stop persecuting Palestine; Palestine stop persexuting queers"?
If it is embarrassing to the Palestinian authorities that they are complicit in the torture and murder of Palestinian homosexuals, then they deserve to be embarrassed. If they feel embarrassed then they should stop. If they feel justified in persecuting homosexuals, then they shouldn't feel embarrassed. So what's your point?
Brett Lock
Hardly the best timing really was it.
17.05.2004 15:06
IMF
I don't recognise myself in the so-called "mob"......
17.05.2004 15:27
"As soon as they arrived in Trafalgar Square to join the demonstration,
the gay protesters were surrounded by an angry, screaming mob of
Islamic fundamentalists, Anglican clergymen, members of the Socialist
Workers Party, the Stop the War Coalition, and officials from the
protest organisers, the Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC). They
variously attacked the gay activists as “racists”, “Zionists”, “CIA
and MI5 agents”, “supporters of the Sharon government” and “dividing
the Free Palestine movement”."
Well, my friend and I certainly do not recognise ourselves in the description above!! All we did was stand behind Peter's group with our banners and neither of us remember this "angry, screaming mob of Islamic fundamentalists etc etc".
Vanessa
On a cloudy day...
17.05.2004 15:32
I am astounded at the hypocrisy. By what moral compass do you determine that one example of persecution, torture and murder is "less of an issue" than another occuring in the same country?
If the persecution of homosexuals is such a "minor issue" can someone explain how the Palestinian authorities find the time and resources to round up the gays when there are "bigger issues" to be dealt with?
How easy it is to demand that OutRage! focus on "the bigger issue". What reluctance to demand that the PA/PLO do the same!
How do you plan to help create a tolerant, peaceful society when you're an apologist for intolerance and violence?
Brett Lock
Let us reveiw ...
17.05.2004 16:28
One group of reporters is telling me that there was consternation followed by altercation, another group is saying there was very little of this.
Taking the middle ground for a sec, I would have to say - what was expected from this?
If it was a bloody melee' - then that appears not to have occured ...
If it was a full and invisable integration into the struggle for Palestinian self determination - then that appears not to have occured.
Now the thread is too-ing and fro-ing between those that take the view that the lack of a warm embrace signifies a degree of prejudice and those that veiw such a lack as the realisation that Palestinian civil society has not yet advanced to the same position as the democratic, wealthy and plurilistic western democracies - a place reached only in living memory for some issues and not reached at all for many more.
This seems a little idiotic, if you're forgive me.
For a start, the Palestinians are not faced with the possiblity of an inclusive open debate on the subject - when they lack so much and are under such immense unimaginable pressure:
..the pressure of knowing that your child could be next for the snipers bullet
..the pressure of bringing in enough food to feed you and yours
.. which means the pressure of looking for work in the sweat shops and labour camps of the shadowy israeli economic appropriation of Palestinian resources
..or the pressure of bringing in the limited crops amoung the wragged bantustans of the west bank - preyed upon by the vageries of pass book politics, the visciousness of the fully rabid settler, his dogs and a big stick (if you're lucky - an american donated m16 if you're not) and the sustained violence of indifference from the authorities
..the pressure of knowing that, if illness or injury attends, you're ambulance might be stopped - if it arrives at all - or even shot at
I don't remember any of these pressures being put upon gay people in the uk - let alone those of the general population who would be called upon to give their blessings or curses upon such a 'lifestyle' choice.
There is simply no comparrison between the type of society the uk was when it first recognised gay rights (1967) and the strangled society of Palestine today.
It is disengenuous of those heaping criticism on Palestine to do so out of context - and tantamount to the typical reactionary zionist tricks of obtusification, distraction and infiltration/sabotauge.
We have patiently listen to what has been said, and noted that such truths are self evident, to borrow a phrase.
But before demarking the struggle (for everyday existance to national freedom and identity) with the language and agendas of those privallaged enough not to need it, remember the simple facts:
Palestine is not free and is in fact involved in a life and death struggle for ALL of it's people ALL of the time. Whilst I am sure that many - the majority - wish to see an inclusive, pluralistic open democratic society in Palestine, and be intelligent enough to accept what that brings, they also recognise that to get to that place requires struggle and sacrifice.
Hitting the half dead PA over the head with spectre of a future imagined free society does not help anyone - you, them, us.
Feel free to join in the struggle for [their] nationhood as gay men and women, but don't expect to make much progress on [your] IMPORTANT issue when going about it so tactlessly.
In love AND respect.
No justice no peace (it works the other way as well!)
jackslucid
e-mail:
jackslucid@hotmail.com
Let us review.. indeed.
17.05.2004 17:08
If you were living with..
"..the pressure of knowing that your child could be next for the snipers bullet"
"..the pressure of bringing in enough food to feed you and yours "
and all the other pressures you correctly list...
Would you still find the time, energy and resources to terrorise homosexuals?
Now, imagine you are a GAY PALESTINIAN... you have all the pressures you listed, and in addition to those, you face the pressures of arbitrary arrest, torture and even death at the hands of your own community. Does that seem fair and just, or are you suggesting gay Palestinians should just put up with an even bigger heap of shit than their neighbours because they're just queers who have made "a lifestyle choice" (as you put it)?
Hmmm. How tactless to equate torture with torture and murder with murder.
If awareness of PA/PLO-sponsored antigay persecution is bad "PR" for the movement for a Free Palestine, then it is not for us to stop criticising it, it is up to them to stop doing it!
Brett Lock
The left betrayed gay rights to Islam
17.05.2004 17:09
leo
Homepage:
http://www.inipa.de/
There you go ...
17.05.2004 18:09
For a start the PA is not beholden to clerical law - nor is it likely to be even under the forseable conditions.
The PA as it exists today represents a wide variety of beliefs and politics - mirrored in the people themselves.
Although a majority of Palestinians are muslim, many are christian some are neither.
The political aspirations of the PA and PLO have always favoured secular, plurilisitic and democratic statehood. It is precisely for this that the zionists of the [israeli] military industrial complex have consistantly behaved in the way most likely to ensure that the fundamentalists of the region dominate (be they islamic or judeaic).
And if we are entering the area of abandonment - then Palestinian civil society has a lot more to feel abandoned about - and to subsequently resent - by the less than attentive manner in which the traditional (and not so traditional) left have delt with the ongoing (for 50 years!) slaughter of their aspirations.
Do you expect them to have focus groups?
Free telephone lines for councilling potential queers?
The more and more that [you] bang on about these non-existant rights, the more and more irritating it gets, the more and more it seems like - yet again - the people of Palestine are having their political and social future mapped out by the selective benevolence of western democracies (or lack of it!).
Now I must ask[you] to provide specific details of the alligations you make concerning - what you call - the organised oppression of gays by the PA.
These must include specific instants where the PA have acted according to pre-arranged and pre-determined policies - if its merely the case (as I suspect) that individual men and women have been picked on by other individuals, groups or even officals of the state acting extra-judicially, then your demands that the PA focus on the issues that concern you rather than the issues that concern them (such as survival etc!).
If you have no specific data concerning such policies then I shall suspect [you] and others of expoiting the issue to distract from the issue of - say the arbitary and collective destruction of 1000 peoples homes TODAY - which I am sure the people of Palestine are MORE concerned about than your comfortable allusions to the perfect society ...
jackslucid
e-mail:
jackslucid@hotmail.com
should read ..
17.05.2004 18:20
jackslucid
e-mail:
jackslucid@hotmail.com
Pix of protest uploaded
17.05.2004 18:41
Thanks
Bolshie Photos
Bolshie Photos
e-mail:
bolshiephotos@yahoo.co.uk
...
17.05.2004 19:05
The complaint seems to be about the method, and timing, shouting at the Palestinians for being homophobic as the tanks roll over their lives and destroy their homes. It is right to speak out about a human rights issue, because greater tolerance in Palestinian culture will only make them more united, and stronger against the occupation, but the way to change the culture is not to thrust our values down their throat at a time when the occupation is causing so much suffering and terror.
Do you think, then, as gay people, it is difficult to campaign in solidarity with the Palestinians, because of fear of homophobia? I can only give the example of Jewish activists, who challenge perceptions directly through their actions in helping undo the occupation. In working together, I have seen racial and sexual prejudices overcome. I have worked out in Palestine with gay activists, who have challenged the perceptions of Palestinian co-ordinators, but they took a gentle approach. On the whole, though, I have more experience witnessing Jewish activists challenging perceptions, and also women, and again it is about gently demonstrating your strength and humanity in helping them.
That is the good thing about this campaign. It may be a slightly cheesey thing to say, but in struggling together against oppression we understand each other more fully, and overcome prejudice. Anyway, well done, it is a valuable discussion to have, lets keep it civil :)
Hermes
Usual "diversion from the class struggle"
17.05.2004 19:23
As a long standing activist in the British Labour movement this is nothing new. I remember the fight for womens rights in the 1960's against racism in the 1970's and 1980's for gay rights in the 1980's and 1990's and many other struggles. They were always dismissed as being "a diversion from the class struggle" and some of the more backward layers of the left even used to dismiss homosexuality as "a bourgois perversion" which would disappear in a socialist society. I know that it sounds unbeliable now but it was true, well respected activists did actually say these things. It was an uphill struggle. And there is plenty more to be done.
Unconditional support for the Palestinian struggle is not the same as uncritical support. We reserve the right to critise when its appropriate and this demonstration was in my opinion an important one as it may make some people think about these issues being international and not confined to the western world.
As true internationalists we must support all people in struggle against the imperialist oppersssors and also against the bourgois reactionary elements within those struggles. We must expose them when they act against the interest of the masses whether they are gay or straight.
Bolshie Photos
e-mail:
bolshiephotos@yahoo.co.uk
No, maybe you should read!
17.05.2004 19:24
We're not asking them to focus on issues that concern us. Quite the contrary - we're demanding that they NOT focus on deploying their resources, time and effort on persecuting gay Palestinians.
Perhaps you don't understand. We're not asking the PA to address homophobia in some touchy-feely way - we're asking them to STOP ACTIVELY ATTACKING GAYS. Perhaps you don't realise that it is the PA *themselves* who are complicit in these acts of torture and murder.
If they left the gays alone they would have MORE time to focus on the real issues - not less.
I'm also suprised, I should add, that you seem to suggest that the issue of gay persecution is only an issue to us. I've been labouring under the misapprehension that arbitrary imprisonment, torture and murder of innocent people was an issue to everyone. Clearly not.
Brett Lock
Bolshie Photos
17.05.2004 20:36
Outrage gat rights protest at Palestine rally Saturday 15th May
Bolshie Photos, 17.05.2004 19:24
Demonstrators and stewards
harass Peter Tatchell and Outrage demo at Palestine Solidarity rally
IMC reader
And some (not so light) reading...
17.05.2004 20:56
From the Jews For Justice website.
From the BBC.
From Reuters.
From East Bay Voice.
From Gay.com
Brett Lock
Ta for the links
17.05.2004 21:51
I must say that in sympathising with the main thrust of the argument for highlighting intolerance one has to be aware also of the effectiveness (in relieving suffering) of strident positions - if their not effective, try another tact (if the object is to relieve suffering).
But its definately an issue that needed airing.
jackslucid
e-mail:
jackslucid@hotmail.com
Re: Incest/homosexuality and social morality
18.05.2004 01:17
You answered: "Firstly, *sigh* I'm not aware of any place where incestuous couples are persecuted and subject to torture or murder. Incest *is* against the law (for good reason) because of the legitimate medical issues relating to birth defects if closely related people procreate..."
Brett, as boring as it may seem, I have to point out that yet again you never actually answered the question I asked...!
My question did not cary any caveats of persecuted "-and subject to torture or murder-". Neither was I asking you the legal position on incest.
Besides your birth defects argument does not hold water. Sex and relationships are not all about procreation, you of all people should realise that. What if the siblings were infertile, use contraceptives, abortion, or dare I say it, were the same sex ?
If it is a question of morality your primarily concerned about should society show any prejudice against same sex consenting adult siblings in a loving manogamous relationship, after all there is no problem with birth defects in couples who don't procreate, is there ?
To borrow your phrase: "By what moral compass do you determine that one example of persecution is "less of an issue" than another ?"
Think about it...
Either you support rights for all consenting adults to form loving manogamous relationships regardless - which means you sanction incest.
Or you are a hypocrit for prejudicing against the sexuality of minority group of consenting adults. (who just happen to have the same amount of evidence as gays that their sexuality is innate as appose to a lifestyle choice (i.e. NONE !)
At least you can't call me a hypocrit because, like most people I meet, I'm prejudice against both (but would never act on that prejudice to cause either group harm).
By shifting the argument and then citing the legal position on incest you ironicaly appear to have no qualms about prejudicing against incestious couples ! Are you sure you have thought this one through ?
"Does that seem fair and just ?"
I have had this argument with psychology tutors and various other social thinkers, so far no one has been able to justify their logic without contradicting themselves. (and getting irrate..)
Maybe now you will see why your 'in your face' style campiagning does not sit well with all people.
You see (regardles of the nature / nurture debate) not everyone is totaly convinced that the promotion of homosexuality as a normal and acceptable lifestyle is a wise and responsible thing (in excactly the same way people would not promote incest as a normal and acceptable lifestyle), even so, they would not act on their prejudice - as the loaded term "homophobia" implies. The situation is not helped when the same name is used for those who murder and torture gays, as equally for those who generaly see the promotion of homosexuality as a negative thing (but would not act on their prejudice).
How tactless is it to equate torture and murder with those who simply do not fully support your cause...?
I'm sure there are many others in society who are just as concerned as myself at the amout of homosexual reference in the popular media (truely disproportionate to reality), especially the media targeted at our youth.
Don't get me wrong, I am one of those people who believes adult homosexuality (and possibly incest) in a loving monagamous relationship should be tolerated in a civilised society, but definately NOT promoted, hence I could never support your cause.
If that makes me homophobic then so be it, but like I said, this homophobe wishes you and your queer brothers and sisters no harm.
Whilst I'm here, perhaps you can suggest another term for "homophobes" who don't torture and murder gays, because (call me pedantic if you like) I am unhappy to be tarred with the same brush as those who commit torture and murder. Besides, it's too much like calling all those who appose Ariel Sharons' policies "antisemetic".
Homophobe
well ...
18.05.2004 08:15
What I did read were several cases where Palestinian gays were compromised by their sexuality. This compromisation seems to follow the classic line of entrappment and appropriation by the police for 'intelligence' purposes.
Unfortunate as this is, this is no trivial matter for a people living under the threat of missle attack etc. In the wretched crowded conditions of the Palestinian ghetto, the average Palestinian resister knows only to well the price they will pay if the israeli forces act against them.
Whilst I do not doubt the existance of prejudice within sections of Palesinian culture and society - it is NOT unique (I suspect there are places you'd rather not go out alone in the uk etc).
Leaving out the well argued but irrelivant (and somewhat self serving) points raised by the eponimous 'homophobe', you have still not really addressed the central issue raised here - which is: do you have the right to co-opt and appropriate the issues of Palestinian self determination and liberation for your own narrow (and equally self serving) agenda.
You may regard the eventual acceptance of your sexuality (followed no doubt by loud and colourful parades - but why not, there're great!) as the benchmark for determining the relative freedom of a society. I think the Palestinian people may have a different view, more in keeping with their desire to, eg, know that their children won't have their brains blown out on the long tortuous route to the shelled building that they call school. Or to be able to walk the few yards from the place where their ancestors lived to the place where their ancestors farmed without facing arrest and/or a beating from those recently arrived from new york or moscow. Or to not have to hoard already polluted water, because the only source has been damed/poisened/diverted further upstream by a handful of our chums from rabid racist settler inc.
The list of extremis faced everyday by every Palestinian in the occupied territories is long and painful to read. To this, YES, we must add the pain of rejection over ones sexuality. However, merely to frame this issue in terms of islamic fundamentalism/prohibition is somewhat disingenuous. As I have indicated elsewhere, Palestinian aspirations have always felt more at home in the belief that a plurualistic and inclusive society will rise from the torment of oppression.
Your strident and repeatative insistance that Palestinian society needs to address the issues surrounding sexuality, if not before, then at least simultaniously, as addressing the everyday struggle to avoid death misery and humiliation seems a little unrealistic - not to say somewhat narrow in its remit.
If you are really interested in advancing the position of gay men and women in Palestinian society, then your attention must be focused on advancing that which achieves this most effectively. After all the Palestinian people have been waiting patiently for over half a centuary just to gain back their nationhood, it seems a little rude and selfish of you to expect that they immeadiately accept the impositions of western liberal values on mass.
If you can not understand why this demand pisses some off (those not necessarily hostile to the eventuality), then you need to remove your gay tinted spectacles and view the world as it is - not how you imagine it should be. We are not their yet.
With liberation comes ... liberation.
Carts before horses help no one and are cumbersome in the extreme - they get you nowhere and carry no weight.
Rest assured though, that this issue has been duely noted by those unaware of its existance previously and that despite our differing positions on it, has been absorbed as another missing potential to be FOUGHT for in the slow march to freedom for all.
No peace = no justice.
No justice = no peace.
jackslucid
e-mail:
jackslucid@hotmail.com
Incest
18.05.2004 08:44
Incest is not a sexual orientation. There is no literature that suggests that any group of people are capapble of having fulfilling emotional and sexual relationships exclusively or primarily with a sibling, parent or child.
Generally speaking, the law should not involve itself in the consenting sexual relationships of adults, (whetehr monogomous or not).
Incest where there is a possibility of procreation is rightly prohibited for the reasons given. Where there is no chance of procreation, I do not believe there has ever been a single case where the law has sought to intervene or prosecute. Moreover, the laws against incest usually extends only as far as prohibiting marriage (which implies the posibility of procreation. Intention is irrelevant since a great number of children are conceived despite their parents intentions.)
I am not aware of any country where the force of the law actively seeks out incestuous couples to prosecute them, much less persecutes them.
You say that you do not support the arrest, torture and murder of homosexuals. Then we are in agreement. You say you do not support our "cause". That is irrelevant. I don't care if you disapprove of homosexuality but I do expect you to take a stand against the persecution of homosexuals if you say you disapprove of that as well.
I am a secular humanist. I disapprove of religion. However, that does not mean that I will tolerate the persecution of people just because they're Muslims (for example). I do not see that speaking out against the persecution of Palestinians is "promoting Islam", so I am bewildered as to why you feel that speaking out against the persecution of lesbian and gay people is "promoting homosexuality" (which is absurd anyway, since a sexual orientation cannot be promoted, it just is).
This is absolutely my last word on the subject. I intend neither to indulge in a philosophical debate about incest nor do I feel the need to defend my claim, as a gay person, to equal human rights. If you want to discuss the issues relevant to the topic, I am more than happy to do so.
Brett Lock
PA and torture, murder and dententions
18.05.2004 09:47
There can be no doubt that the PA is complicit in acts of detention without trial, torture and executions without due process ("murder").
While I'm sure you won't deny it, I'm equally sure that you'll excuse it.
On another note, funny how when the issue is perseution of any other group it falls under "universal human rights", but when the same standards of treatment are demanded for lesbian and gay people, the goalposts suddenly shift to "imposing western liberal values".
I'm also intregued by a phrase that keeps cropping up that OutRage! is advancing its "own self-serving agenda". What do we have to gain personally from seeing the human rights of Palestinian lesbians and gays respected?
You also seem to have a rather groundless believe that "liberalisation" naturally follows liberation. Can you give me even one example of this? South Africa doesn't count because the ANC subscribed to a broad-based human rights agenda (what you patronisingly refer to as "western liberal values") long before liberation. I have no doubt that it significantly bolstered their international prestige and goodwill and was instrumental both in hastening liberation and ensuring a peaceful transition. Arafat could be another Mandela, but (if Amnesty International and other sources are to be believed) it seems more likely that he is well on the path to becoming another Mugabe.
Brett Lock
PA fake secularism
18.05.2004 12:53
It's you who makes the wrong generalizations. Any true solidarity with the Palestinians would first of all complain that they have been turned into a weapon in the hands of expansionist Islam. There's nothing left of the PA's cold war era mock secularism, which anyways was never more than a lie to trigger Soviet sponsoring and European sympathy. Have you read Arafarts recent speech to Israls 56th independence day? He said himself that the legitimacy of his cause would derive from religious revelations, and based his argument on Quran quotes.
Just name any single political decision of the PA in the post cold war era that has not derived from clerical law! You can't? It's because there are none. The PA itself has proven you wrong when it, as a member state of the Organization of the Islamic Conference, on August 5, 1990 signed the "Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam" which subjects all human rights to Sharia.
leo
Homepage:
http://www.inipa.de/
countering the "incest argument"
18.05.2004 13:15
see: Saudi Arabia Awakes to the Perils of Inbreeding
leo
Homepage:
http://www.inipa.de/
OK
18.05.2004 14:46
"There can be no doubt that the PA is complicit in acts of detention without trial, torture and executions without due process ("murder").
While I'm sure you won't deny it, I'm equally sure that you'll excuse it."
No I won't deny it and no I won't excuse it. I don't have to, the conditions whereby such acts of violence and intolerance breed are self evident in the treatment of the Palestinian people and their experience of 50+ years of brutal occupation, disempowerment despair and humiliation at the hands of a racist supremacist military machine.
I'm sure if you I or anyone with both ego and imagination postualted their method of response etc, no homophobia would be present in Palestinian society[sic]. But, unfortunately intolerance and repulsion are human traits and every culture ever has exihibited them in one way or another.
Palestine is no different - except for the facts of an occupation that you or I might dwell upon now and then, but in which we do not live and can have only a dim understanding of.
Palestine needs friends, it needs contact with the outside world, it needs to learn about the benefits and the pleasures of co-operation and mutual support.
What it doesn't need are unrealistic expectations thrust upon it by those with agendas of their own - and yes I classify your agenda of gay rights as a separate (but ultimately connected - once removed as it were) agenda to that of the every day struggle for adequate food clothes and shelter - to use a figure of speech all to literal for the Palestinians.
Whatever their veiws of homosexual behaviour - and I suspect that [one] would be suprised by the tolerance and understanding of the majority of individuals approached in a suitable manner - the Palestinian people do not need to be lectured by those already enjoying the considerable benefits of surplus resources, free time and a democratic and tolerant society (which, incidently, took hundreds of years to fight for and build!).
And as for the poster who wants to claim that the PA either hold pluralism and democracy up as a thin veil of respectabilty, or that they are bound by religious law - a simple review of both the pronouncements and the organisation of the mutalated body politic of Palestinian society would reveal your easy conclusions to be wishful thinking.
Its easy to kick someone when they are down, or to pick on someone/thing already weakened. Whats harder to do is be a true friend and not allow ones own disquite of certain veiws and practices to interfer in the admistration of natural human rights - like the right to freedom of movement and assembly or the right to freedom of expression (even if you disagree with them).
jackslucid
e-mail:
jackslucid@hotmail.com
Not just Palestine
18.05.2004 14:52
P.T. and Outrage are not just campaigning out the situ in Palestine-but across the
Muslim world for gay people.
I recall a gay Palestinian at the end of last year was emailing people for support
to try and get refugee status in Israel (with his partner) as he had been threatened
death if he returned to his family in Ramallah (our anywhere under the palestinian
authority) The last I heard was that he had been 'allowed' to stay in Jerusalem but
under a form of housearrest-only allowed out to work.) I think his name was Fuad.
Part of his campaign was to highlight the situation for gays in both Palestine and
Israel.
Let's also not forget the situ of other's in the middle east: In Egypt there has been
a crack down over the last few years. Some gay people are still in jail simply for
being gay (see Amnesty Intl ) One young man I recall by the name of Zaki is still
in jail (sentenced last year to 3 years)
Just today on gay.com there is a breaking news story regarding an albeit somewhat
confused protest in Egypt relating the supposed 'gay' abuse in Iraq.
Further afield- in Uzbekistan- a gay man (Ruslan Sharipov) was jailed for alledged
child abuse (trumped up) and other charges when all he was doing was being active
in the human rights struggle there. (He's been subjected to torture and is still in
jail)>
***A good place to go to start getting an answer to this whole problem: see the following
website: www.muslimrefusenik.com
It's the site of lesbian muslim Irshad Manji who recently published a book
called 'The Trouble with Islam' (mainstream publ). outlining her view of Islam
and it's anti-progressive stance since the 12th C. She also has a campaign called
Operation Itjihad which she hopes will help overturn the current orthodoxy in Islam
returning the progressive message so long lost.
Pirate
surely some mistake
18.05.2004 15:06
sceptic
yes but ...
18.05.2004 15:16
That and the fact that such democratic and tolerance that we have has had to be fought for tooth and nail against the type of thinking that your past postings indicate you are in favour of (patriachy, sexism, warmongering, self-aggradising patriotism etc!!!)
jackslucid
e-mail:
jackslucid@hotmail.com
Irrelevant ?
18.05.2004 15:21
Arm Lock
Re: Incest
18.05.2004 15:28
Leo, firstly cousins are not quite the same as 'siblings' (brothers and sisters)
Nevertheless, using your fuzzy logic maybe society should put a stop to people over 40 getting married, because they also have a much higher chance of birth defects...
"Some genetic abnormalities, such as Down syndrome (a genetic abnormality that causes mental retardation, short stature, and flattened features), increase with the parents' ages. Women over 35 are at higher risk of having a child with Down syndrome--about 1 in 100 for a 40-year-old, compared to 1 in 10,000 for a 20-year-old mother or 3 in 1,000 for a 35-year-old mother. And it's not always just the mother's age that matters. An estimated 25 percent of Down syndrome cases can be attributed to increased age of the father."
As for you quote; "Legalization of homosexuality in fact is a solution to the root causes of the incest problem." Don't make me laugh !!!
H
Nitpicking?!
18.05.2004 16:01
"Let's stop nitpicking and get to grips with the issue: yes, there's homophobia in Israel (as there is in the UK and most other countries) but it does not extend to the arbitrary imprisonment, torture and sanctioned murder of lesbian and gay people. Gay Palestinians seek asylum in Israel. Israeli cities host Gay Pride parades, but even that is peripheral: ALL Palestinians deserve to live free from the fear of prison, torture and death - not just SOME Palestinians."
I call bullshit. If you had bothered to read the links you (eventually) provided, you would know that queer palestinians have a very precarious existance in israel, certainly not asylum, subject to arbitrary imprisonment and eventual expulsion to almost certain death.
Furthermore, in case you hadn't noticed, the zionist state is building a wall expressly designed to keep palestinians out. One more obstacle for queer palestinians.
Yet no condemnation, or even understanding, of this.
QJ
queer jew
Reply to Jackslucid - evidence
18.05.2004 16:02
You also say "there is not a shred of evidence that the practices of sytematic/systemic homophobia you discribe are carried out under the auspices of the PA."
Jews for Justice carried an appeal on behalf of Fuad Moussa, a 27 year old gay Palestinian threatened with deportation. They say: "It is within the power of the State of Israel to protect him from a possible death sentence". Just who would carry out this death sentence and why do they fear for Fuad's life? Perhaps you should contact them and ask. They were one of the groups represented on the podium at Saturday's rally.
The BBC report tells the story of a gay Palestinian who says ""They hit me. They put me in a pool of water with just my head sticking out." Shaul Gonen from the Society for the Protection of Personal Rights told the BBC "It is indescribable how bad life is for these people," adding that the man fled from Gaza to the West Bank four years ago after escaping from Palestinian police custody, but his own family tracked him down and tried to kill him, so he ran away to Israel.
Reuters News Agency interviewed a gay Palestinian named only as 'Rani'. He testified that he was tortured by Palestinian Police who wanted him to spy on othe homosexuals.
Donatella Rovera of Amnesty International says: "The first danger to them is from family and community, as well as (Palestinian) authorities. Going to Israel is a one-way ticket, and once there their biggest problem is possibly being sent back."
Another 21 year old gay Palestinian known only as 'Tayseer' was caught in bed with his boyfriend. The next day he received a police summons. At the station Tayseer was told that his sex partner was in fact a police agent whose job is to ferret out homosexuals. If Tayseer wanted to avoid prison, he too would have to become an undercover sex agent, luring gays into orchards and turning them over to the police.
His story continues:
Tayseer refused to implicate others. He was arrested and hung by his arms from the ceiling. A high-ranking officer he didn't know arranged for his release and then demanded sex as payback. Tayseer fled Gaza to Tulkarem on the West Bank, but there too he was eventually arrested. He was forced to stand in sewage water up to his neck, his head covered by a sack filled with feces, and then he was thrown into a dark cell infested with insects and other creatures he could feel but not see. ("You slap one part of your body, and then you have to slap another," he recounts.) During one interrogation, police stripped him and forced him to sit on a Coke bottle. Through the entire ordeal he was taunted by interrogators, jailers, and fellow prisoners for being a homosexual. When he was released a few months later, Tayseer crossed into Israel. He now lives illegally in an Arab Israeli village and works in a restaurant. His dream is to move to Tel Aviv. "No one there cares if you're gay," he says. These days, though, he knows that an illegal Gazan in Tel Aviv risks being deported and that he's safest staying where he is. And if he were sent back to Gaza? "The police will kill me," he says. "Unless my father gets to me first."
All this and more was in the links I provided, but still you say bewilderingly that "there is not a shred of evidence". I suggest you contact some of the groups referenced who are working directly with gay Palestinians and get the information directly from them.
Brett Lock
Nitpicking
18.05.2004 16:32
I didn't say gay Palestinians GOT asylum in Israel, I said they SEEK asylum in Israel. It is also a fact that Israeli LGBT groups are campaigning to have their asylum cases taken seriously by the Israeli authorities. I never claimed that Israel was a haven for gay Palestinians, only that they are so desperate that they flee to Israel. It is disgusting that the Israeli authorities are deporting gay Palestinians back to face persecution - but that persecution is carried out by other Palestinians. Criticising the Palestinian Authorities is not the same as supporting the Israeli government - unless, like George Bush, you believe in that "you're either with us or against us" crap.
You also say that "Furthermore, in case you hadn't noticed, the zionist state is building a wall expressly designed to keep palestinians out. One more obstacle for queer palestinians. Yet no condemnation, or even understanding, of this."
Perhaps you hadn't noticed that the FIRST message on our placard was "Israel: Stop persecuting Palestinians" If you look at the photo above, you will also notice that our group are holding "Free Palestine / The Wall Must Fall" posters as well. Perhaps you also choose to ignore that Peter Tatchell was one of the signatories to the Boycott Israel campaign. "No condemnation" indeed!
Brett Lock
More nitpicking
18.05.2004 17:17
I didn't say gay Palestinians GOT asylum in Israel, I said they SEEK asylum in Israel. It is also a fact that Israeli LGBT groups are campaigning to have their asylum cases taken seriously by the Israeli authorities. I never claimed that Israel was a haven for gay Palestinians, only that they are so desperate that they flee to Israel. It is disgusting that the Israeli authorities are deporting gay Palestinians back to face persecution
QJ: You claimed there wasn't arbitrary imprisonment - there is. Go read your own links.
Brett continues:
- but that persecution is carried out by other Palestinians.
QJ: That does not alleviate the responsibility of a state to give asylum to the persecuted. In these cases, the Israeli authorities know full well what they are sending queers back to. That's complicity, that's homophobia.
More Brett:
Perhaps you hadn't noticed that the FIRST message on our placard was "Israel: Stop persecuting Palestinians" If you look at the photo above, you will also notice that our group are holding "Free Palestine / The Wall Must Fall" posters as well. Perhaps you also choose to ignore that Peter Tatchell was one of the signatories to the Boycott Israel campaign. "No condemnation" indeed!
QJ: Deliberate obfuscation. The point I made, and that you wish to evade, is that you did not condemn Israeli state *homophobia*, and even, in statements above, deny it.
QJ
queer jew
And even more Nitpicking
18.05.2004 18:01
I agree with you that it does not alleviate the responsibility of Israel to protect gay Palestinians by granting them asylum. In fact I called it "disgusting". But that doesn't alter the fact that gay Palestinians are vulnerable because they have fled persecution by other Palestinians to Israel. Is it even possible to make sense of Israels failure to protect gay Palestinians without first drawing attention to the persecution that has caused the problem?
This is only the first step in our campaign to raise awareness in the UK of the plight of gay Palestinians. Israel will not emerge blameless or unscathed. The threats by Israeli police to 'out' gay palestinians to their families if they refuse to provide information or co-operation is another outrage that will be addressed.
Another question: Do you condemn Amnesty International for exposing the human rights abuses committed by the PA?
Brett Lock
Sorry Brett but ..
18.05.2004 18:07
Whilst I do not doubt that there are those who take it upon themselves, draw inspiration from any of the sky ghost philosophies and/or exploit the plight of gays either for personal gain, satisfaction (abuse) or political advancement/survival - this is not the same as a sanction from the government of the bloody and fractured Palestinian nation-in-waiting.
Further - if it is the plight of homosexuals that concerns you most (and not the effect of sowing divisions that weaken and hasten the end of Palesinian aspirations), then don't you think that the quicker that Palestine is free of the gross abuses of zionist occupation, then the quicker an atmosphere of acceptance will gain enough of a foothold to make it a political necessity.
Trying to do it the other way around - although a noble intent - is not likely to meet with either success or acknowledgement from a people already on the edge of total despair and hopelessness?
By the way, I would like to say that I have a growing respect for you personally and that my thinking IS being influenced by yours. I am not that totally convinced by your argument in regards to the solutions to this problem, but I remain open to the possibilty that yours is the better way of thinking about it. Ta very much.
jackslucid
e-mail:
jackslucid@hotmail.com
Getting there...
18.05.2004 18:42
Let me hasten to reassure you that there is absolutely no foundation to the notion that OutRage! wishes to "sow divisions that weaken and hasten the end of Palesinian aspirations". If that were so, we would not bothered to have condemned Israel's persecution of Palestinians. Furthermore, Peter Tatchell would not have put his name to a call for a boycott of Israeli goods, calculated, I presume, to hasten the end of the Israeli occupation.
On the contrary, we hope that by calling on the PLO to do some housekeeping (a call echoed by Amnesty International) it will enhance, not diminish, their international respect, prestige and credibility - and there will be far fewer (legitimate) grounds for division. So far, the PLO has failed to achieve the same level of support the ANC did. A turn-about won't be achieved by brushing their shortcomings under the rug, it will come about by a committment to the values and standards needed to maximise support.
The open question, is: The difference between Mugabe and Mandela was that the latter believed a committment to universal human rights was an *integral part* of the liberation process, not an optional addendum. Which type of statesman will Arafat choose to be?
Brett Lock
Yes
18.05.2004 19:09
The thing I like about indymedia is the possibility of correcting earlier opinions and statements at anytime in the future - these posts will always be here to refer to, and that is what I expect to do over the next few days, and possibly revise any inconsistances (ethical or factual) that I may have overlooked.
Cheers mate.
jackslucid
e-mail:
jackslucid@hotmail.com
Arabs and Sex
18.05.2004 22:05
"The notion that Arabs are particularly vulnerable to sexual humiliation became a talking point among pro-war Washington conservatives in the months before the March, 2003, invasion of Iraq. One book that was frequently cited was The Arab Mind, a study of Arab culture and psychology, first published in 1973, by Raphael Patai, a cultural anthropologist who taught at, among other universities, Columbia and Princeton, and who died in 1996. The book includes a twenty-five-page chapter on Arabs and sex, depicting sex as a taboo vested with shame and repression. 'The segregation of the sexes, the veiling of the women . . . and all the other minute rules that govern and restrict contact between men and women, have the effect of making sex a prime mental preoccupation in the Arab world,' Patai wrote. Homosexual activity, 'or any indication of homosexual leanings, as with all other expressions of sexuality, is never given any publicity. These are private affairs and remain in private.' The Patai book, an academic told me, was 'the bible of the neocons on Arab behavior.' In their discussions, he said, two themes emerged – 'one, that Arabs only understand force and, two, that the biggest weakness of Arabs is shame and humiliation.'"
H
Reply to Brett on Incest/homosexuality thread
19.05.2004 03:06
As I said before, some people view homosexuality in precisely the same way as they view incest, i.e. a taboo subject that is deeply entwined within the moral farbric of their indiviual culture.
Having read
You wrote: "...Incest is not a sexual orientation...a sexual orientation cannot be promoted, it just is...."
Can I just say that is pure subjective opinion ! ( I would not normally be so arrogant and would previously have at least offered to prove me wrong, but having had this discussion many times I already knows what the science is on the subject.)
You also wrote: "....You say that you do not support the arrest, torture and murder of homosexuals. Then we are in agreement. You say you do not support our "cause". That is irrelevant. I don't care if you disapprove of homosexuality but I do expect you to take a stand against the persecution of homosexuals if you say you disapprove of that as well......"
Firstly, you put words into my mouth...I never actually said I "do not support the arrest, torture and murder of homosexuals", I simply do not support torture and murder of anyone, regardless of what they are accused of. The rest of what you say is akin the GWB's "you're either with us or against us" crap...
You keep forgetting that many people objectively believe all sexual behavour is culturally defined, or learnt behaviour (albiet subconsciously).
I think it is fair to say that in a society that promotes homosexuality as normal and acceptable there will be more homosexual behaviour, just as in a society the promotes incest as acceptable and normal would have more siblings forming sexual relationships.
All that combined with a subjective campaign agenda which by proxy is quite obviously promoting homosexuality as acceptable and normal make you look like opportunists.
And don't worry, I can understand why you would say that you have had your last word on the subject. This would not be the first time this has been said to me when discussing the subject of homosexuality with homosexuals.
Homophobe.
And still more nitpicking
19.05.2004 03:47
QJ, you're playing semantics. I said that gays aren't subject to arbitrary imprisonment in Israel - which is true. The gay Palestinians are picked up by the police because they are Palestinians, NOT because they are gay.
Dissimmulation, and you know it. In Israel, there is arbitrary imprisonment of queer palestinians. They are especially vulnerable because they are queer, with little in the way of support. The police know very well the areas they patrol, who they are looking for, and what they can get away with. Yours is an abstract, legalistic view that ignores the social reality of the occupation and how it impacts on the lives of palestinian queers *as queers*.
And before you get too cosy with the police, read about their violent raids on queers in Tel Aviv:
Brett Lock:
Another question: Do you condemn Amnesty International for exposing the human rights abuses committed by the PA?
Of course not.
Now, are you going to make a clear, unequivocal statement opposing the Israeli states homophobia and its part in the occupation?
QJ
queer jew
Enequivocal Statement
19.05.2004 08:16
Of course we condemn homophobia, whatever form it takes, wherever, including in Israel and the UK and anywhere else.
Brett Lock
is gay solidarity tainted or something?
24.05.2004 23:16
No one is saying that criticising palestinian authority homophobia is to ignore israeli homophobia. But if Hammas, and the Martyrs Brigades, and the PLO feel they can beat, abuse and kills gay and lesbian palestinians, i doubt they'll care if israeli does the same to its citizens.
I can remember 20 years ago, at the newham 8 demonstrations, as anti-racist campaigners tried to push peter and I and a small group of gay activists to the back.
It always seems to be that being gay or lesbian negates ones right to protest, to express solidarity, to be angry, to demand justice, to want everyone to live a decent honest society. As if gay & lesbian solidarity was somehow tainted.
But if the PLO & hammas, along with socialist atheist israelis, are ever able to creat a way of living together in that narrow strip of land between the jordan and the sea; then it must be societies that include justice and equality for women and gays and lesbians.
And any movement for freedom and justice who says that sexuality is a divisise issue that can wait till after the revolution is a movement that is lying and betraying its women, its children, and the gay /lesbian members of society.
For we are everywhere.
And that also means in trafalger square demanding that israel remember its own people's histories, and that ghettos cause nothing but suffering, and anger, and yet mnore cycles of death
kellan farshea
e-mail:
talkback04@unclekellan.com
As usual the words gay and incest are mentioned in the same breath
10.06.2004 12:26
Were you abused by a family member? I was
As usual gay and incest are mentioned in the same breath!
Your argument is insulting to gays and survivors of sexual abuse.
Before you get on your intellectual high horse some survivors do feel the sexual relation is 'normal' and only begin to question the relationship after some time.
your moral argument in fact is an example of too much philosophising and not enough thinking.
The gay rights movement has done alot of things for many different people and helped gays and straights alike.
Fact most sexual abuse is carried out by a 'heterosexual' in the family.
Fact most male rape is carried out by so called 'heterosexuals'
Fact rape of women is carried out by 'heterosexuals'
Should we perhaps not question the validity of 'heterosexuality' because it seems to me that you heterosexuality carries with it a weight of guilt, shame, confusion and anger.
Please be sensitive!!
Al