hi, an individual posted her own minutes of the ESF meeting on sun feb 29 on the esf2004 website. Looks like in future, minutes of "official" esf meetings will only be posted to those who subscribed to it. Would be nice if someone would fwd future minutes of official meetings to imc, or the esf 2004 website ;-)
Minutes UK OC 29 feb - Personal Report
Contributed to esf2004.net
Tuesday, 02 March 2004
Feb 29 2004 - UKOC London
Of course these are not the official minutes of the UKOC but mine with my comments. I would like to share with you my impressions and to open a dibate about what we are prepared to do and ask for.
I do think our Call for democracy - you can find and sign it at www.esf2004.net -
is very important and it's time to be ready for the European Assembly.
I do have a question for all of you
IS THIS THE ESF WE WANT?
I also think we have to meet on Friday around 9 pm when presumably people from UK and other country will arrive and I urge people in London to find a venue for this
Going in : there was only a list for affiliated org and rap. so I didn't know how to register myself as I am from the M'er Social Forum but I don't rappresent it. (Is it possible to rappresent an open space????). The guy at the door told me I was an observer which it didn't tell me what exactly could be my role. Was I going to be able to speak and fully partecipate in the meeting or did I have to observe it in silence?
During the meeting nobody discussed the right of the observers to speak and I was not stopped to do it.
DECISON MAKING : I also WAS ALLOWED TO partecipate to this particular system the "UKOC" uses to take decision. They call it "draw a straw" - as far as I understood and it is labelled like a kind of "decision based on consensus". So people are asked if they agree on one or the other proposal to put their hand up. Done! Decided! Nobody cares about the ones who desegree (they are a minority of course) I've seen this method used in several meeting and istitutions and they call it VOTING!!
INFORMATIONS TO CIRCULATE:
Only to the affiliated groups will receive minutes of meetings
Although everybody is talking about enlarging the process you are able to know what's happening only affiliating and paying your fee!
under 50,000 members £ 250
50-250,000 £ 500
250- 750,000 £ 1,000
Over 750,000 £ 1,500
The OC can agree lower rates for organizations if necessary
The concept that the money of the affiliation is not related with the right of being part of the process was not accepted
About the ESF 2004: let's forget the 50,000 we had!
Venue:
Alexandra Palace 1st option
only the space as it is will cost £ 1,200,000 which means
1 room x 2000 people
1 room x 900 people
1 room x 1500 people
and 2/3 spaces for workshop
total 4,400 people plus the hall which can host 7,000 people but it would be better not to use it for meetings unless we split it in smaller places (other money invoilved) and with an acustic problem of course considering that London is not exactly the place where people can go outside to spend sometime if not in the meetings. ( 21 plenary, 63 seminars, few worshops)
The survey is not ready but it will be on Thursday 4th March when the OC is going to meet again to decide everything for the EU Assembly (of course the most important meeting is in the middle of the week in London!)
Alexandra Palace 2nd option
with some marquis will cost £ 1,460,000 up to 20,000 they say but the problems about the internal structure of Alexandra Palace makes me doubting.
Alexandra Palace 3rd option
with more marquis will cost £ 1,580,000
up to 40,000 people but with the sma problems about the internal structure so I've got some doubts again.
nearly at the end of the discussion a new building came out of the blue
Bloomsbury
(it's not clear to me if as an alternative to Alexandra Palace or a complement)
It was said can host 11,000 people and costs £ 85,000. Oh what a difference from Alexandra Palace! And it's in the centre.
If this wan't be the alternative but just a complement may be becouse is cheaper than build the infrastructures for Alexandra Palace then again we are talkig about 2 different places ( we said we wanted to avoid what happened in Paris) far away from eachother and lesd then 20,000 people able to be hosted for the meetings.
Security
At my question "What about private sicurity guards?" for these spaces it was answered that no investigation has taken place, but it was also said that this is the legislation of this country and these are private space so we have to aspect it to be happen.
So again like some of the spaces we used in Paris we will face security guards, dogs, closing areas???? I had a terrible experience in Paris for the meeting about the relation between parties and movements. I had to fight like I do with the police in demos from time to time in order to help people to get in and partecipate to a meeting of the ESF!
Lengh of plenaries,seminars,workshops,
To cope with the lack of space it has been suggested to cut the meting having more during the day : 4 sessions 10-12; 1-3; 4-5; 6-8.30
Fees
It has been decided ( voting drawing a straw) We are talking about sterlins
£ 10 unwaged for a day
£ 15 waged for the day in advance for all the event
£ 20 unwaged
£ 30 waged
£ 50 for Organization plus the fee for the individuals
at the door for all the event
£ 25 unwaged
£ 40 waged
£ 60 plus the fee for individuals
Only few people expressed their concern about the fees all together for waged and unwaged proposing £4 for unwaged. It was even suggested that proves of the economic situation of the partecipants have to be asked in order to give the discount (Guy Taylor) and that we can talk about real integration only if also asylum seekers and sans papiers are asked to pay as everybodyelse.
These fee are connected with the chance or not to host the ESF (we offer a packet to the European, leave or take!) That's the situation in this country! We have no support as in Italy and in Paris! We have to pay for it! Why didn't they think about it before the bid? Waasn't it presented to the other countries as there was a clear sure support?
GLA
Although the rap of the GLA has always a prominent role in answering to other interventions, giving explanation, clarifie positions like he is in charge... he said very clearly that the GLA is not prepared to give any money at least till they see a cospicuos amount of it coming from the affiliated groups
Trade Unions
The impression is that at the moment along with GLA they are visibly is in charge of the process which gives again the idea, at least to me, of a big istitutional conference/rally going to have place in London. It has to be clear, I'm not against TUs, I'm in the steering committee of my italian TU/the CGIL but I do think they are, if they decide, part of the movement, open to challenge the inclusivity of the process, not leeding it becouse they are the ones who are comitting more money
SWP
Some prominents figures of this party were often giving answer to interventions having a prominent role although they were presenting themselves with different labels (project K, GR.....)
When?
It was decided that instead of having the ESF on Thursday,Friday, Saturday and Sunday to let people going back home and may be to work on Monday morning it will be proposed to the EU Assembly as an event which is going to take place Friday Saturday and all Sunday.
The Demostration is considered part of the event and is going to take place on Saturday.
The Assembly of the movements (which created some problems for the TUC in order to affiliate) is not part of the ESF in itsself. If the Assembly decides to take place it will be on Monday morning ( when people is gone!?!). The idea of an Assembly of the movements making calls for action as part of the process and the natural product of what's happening during the ESF was not considered valid.
No women day was suggested although it was proposed by me at the Program meeting as part of the ESF
Translation
It was said that it was not possible to take any decision about this. The cost is £250,000 becouse there are doubts about which method is really less expensive.
Decision is postponed but it was suggested that PA can be used to give the translation in English as the main language spoken.
Food/Accomodation/transports
Although everybody knows that London is one of the most expensive city no proposal are ready to answer to this question. How people with law income can pay the high fee and also survive for 3 days!
Website
It was repetly said that in order to get the more money we can we the advanced fee payed on line the system has to be relyable so it has to be given to a private company.
Title
It was suggested that it will be better to call the ESF Antiwar, Antiracist, Antiprivatisation and cuts instead of Antiliberalism
Contributed to esf2004.net
Tuesday, 02 March 2004
Feb 29 2004 - UKOC London
Of course these are not the official minutes of the UKOC but mine with my comments. I would like to share with you my impressions and to open a dibate about what we are prepared to do and ask for.
I do think our Call for democracy - you can find and sign it at www.esf2004.net -
is very important and it's time to be ready for the European Assembly.
I do have a question for all of you
IS THIS THE ESF WE WANT?
I also think we have to meet on Friday around 9 pm when presumably people from UK and other country will arrive and I urge people in London to find a venue for this
Going in : there was only a list for affiliated org and rap. so I didn't know how to register myself as I am from the M'er Social Forum but I don't rappresent it. (Is it possible to rappresent an open space????). The guy at the door told me I was an observer which it didn't tell me what exactly could be my role. Was I going to be able to speak and fully partecipate in the meeting or did I have to observe it in silence?
During the meeting nobody discussed the right of the observers to speak and I was not stopped to do it.
DECISON MAKING : I also WAS ALLOWED TO partecipate to this particular system the "UKOC" uses to take decision. They call it "draw a straw" - as far as I understood and it is labelled like a kind of "decision based on consensus". So people are asked if they agree on one or the other proposal to put their hand up. Done! Decided! Nobody cares about the ones who desegree (they are a minority of course) I've seen this method used in several meeting and istitutions and they call it VOTING!!
INFORMATIONS TO CIRCULATE:
Only to the affiliated groups will receive minutes of meetings
Although everybody is talking about enlarging the process you are able to know what's happening only affiliating and paying your fee!
under 50,000 members £ 250
50-250,000 £ 500
250- 750,000 £ 1,000
Over 750,000 £ 1,500
The OC can agree lower rates for organizations if necessary
The concept that the money of the affiliation is not related with the right of being part of the process was not accepted
About the ESF 2004: let's forget the 50,000 we had!
Venue:
Alexandra Palace 1st option
only the space as it is will cost £ 1,200,000 which means
1 room x 2000 people
1 room x 900 people
1 room x 1500 people
and 2/3 spaces for workshop
total 4,400 people plus the hall which can host 7,000 people but it would be better not to use it for meetings unless we split it in smaller places (other money invoilved) and with an acustic problem of course considering that London is not exactly the place where people can go outside to spend sometime if not in the meetings. ( 21 plenary, 63 seminars, few worshops)
The survey is not ready but it will be on Thursday 4th March when the OC is going to meet again to decide everything for the EU Assembly (of course the most important meeting is in the middle of the week in London!)
Alexandra Palace 2nd option
with some marquis will cost £ 1,460,000 up to 20,000 they say but the problems about the internal structure of Alexandra Palace makes me doubting.
Alexandra Palace 3rd option
with more marquis will cost £ 1,580,000
up to 40,000 people but with the sma problems about the internal structure so I've got some doubts again.
nearly at the end of the discussion a new building came out of the blue
Bloomsbury
(it's not clear to me if as an alternative to Alexandra Palace or a complement)
It was said can host 11,000 people and costs £ 85,000. Oh what a difference from Alexandra Palace! And it's in the centre.
If this wan't be the alternative but just a complement may be becouse is cheaper than build the infrastructures for Alexandra Palace then again we are talkig about 2 different places ( we said we wanted to avoid what happened in Paris) far away from eachother and lesd then 20,000 people able to be hosted for the meetings.
Security
At my question "What about private sicurity guards?" for these spaces it was answered that no investigation has taken place, but it was also said that this is the legislation of this country and these are private space so we have to aspect it to be happen.
So again like some of the spaces we used in Paris we will face security guards, dogs, closing areas???? I had a terrible experience in Paris for the meeting about the relation between parties and movements. I had to fight like I do with the police in demos from time to time in order to help people to get in and partecipate to a meeting of the ESF!
Lengh of plenaries,seminars,workshops,
To cope with the lack of space it has been suggested to cut the meting having more during the day : 4 sessions 10-12; 1-3; 4-5; 6-8.30
Fees
It has been decided ( voting drawing a straw) We are talking about sterlins
£ 10 unwaged for a day
£ 15 waged for the day in advance for all the event
£ 20 unwaged
£ 30 waged
£ 50 for Organization plus the fee for the individuals
at the door for all the event
£ 25 unwaged
£ 40 waged
£ 60 plus the fee for individuals
Only few people expressed their concern about the fees all together for waged and unwaged proposing £4 for unwaged. It was even suggested that proves of the economic situation of the partecipants have to be asked in order to give the discount (Guy Taylor) and that we can talk about real integration only if also asylum seekers and sans papiers are asked to pay as everybodyelse.
These fee are connected with the chance or not to host the ESF (we offer a packet to the European, leave or take!) That's the situation in this country! We have no support as in Italy and in Paris! We have to pay for it! Why didn't they think about it before the bid? Waasn't it presented to the other countries as there was a clear sure support?
GLA
Although the rap of the GLA has always a prominent role in answering to other interventions, giving explanation, clarifie positions like he is in charge... he said very clearly that the GLA is not prepared to give any money at least till they see a cospicuos amount of it coming from the affiliated groups
Trade Unions
The impression is that at the moment along with GLA they are visibly is in charge of the process which gives again the idea, at least to me, of a big istitutional conference/rally going to have place in London. It has to be clear, I'm not against TUs, I'm in the steering committee of my italian TU/the CGIL but I do think they are, if they decide, part of the movement, open to challenge the inclusivity of the process, not leeding it becouse they are the ones who are comitting more money
SWP
Some prominents figures of this party were often giving answer to interventions having a prominent role although they were presenting themselves with different labels (project K, GR.....)
When?
It was decided that instead of having the ESF on Thursday,Friday, Saturday and Sunday to let people going back home and may be to work on Monday morning it will be proposed to the EU Assembly as an event which is going to take place Friday Saturday and all Sunday.
The Demostration is considered part of the event and is going to take place on Saturday.
The Assembly of the movements (which created some problems for the TUC in order to affiliate) is not part of the ESF in itsself. If the Assembly decides to take place it will be on Monday morning ( when people is gone!?!). The idea of an Assembly of the movements making calls for action as part of the process and the natural product of what's happening during the ESF was not considered valid.
No women day was suggested although it was proposed by me at the Program meeting as part of the ESF
Translation
It was said that it was not possible to take any decision about this. The cost is £250,000 becouse there are doubts about which method is really less expensive.
Decision is postponed but it was suggested that PA can be used to give the translation in English as the main language spoken.
Food/Accomodation/transports
Although everybody knows that London is one of the most expensive city no proposal are ready to answer to this question. How people with law income can pay the high fee and also survive for 3 days!
Website
It was repetly said that in order to get the more money we can we the advanced fee payed on line the system has to be relyable so it has to be given to a private company.
Title
It was suggested that it will be better to call the ESF Antiwar, Antiracist, Antiprivatisation and cuts instead of Antiliberalism
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