Say “No” to the Israeli sponsored film festival
Michael Kalmanovitz | 06.11.2013 13:24 | Palestine
On Saturday evening 2 November, protestors gathered outside as the Tricycle opened an Israeli-sponsored Jewish film festival.
The lively and colourful protest was called by the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, in response to the Israeli Embassy’s sponsorship of the Tricycle’s Festival. People from different faiths and none, including an Israeli activist, Palestinian solidarity activists, and campaigners from the Kentish Town-based Global Women’s Strike, came together to remind the Tricycle that at the very same time that they hosted the festival last year, Israel was bombing Gaza, killing 158 Palestinians; including 30 children.
Protestors, who have valued the Tricycle for decades through its vitally informative and entertaining plays about Afghanistan, Ireland’s Bloody Sunday, US Guantanamo, the Stephen Lawrence Inquiry, and more, are appalled at the Tricycle hosting a film festival sponsored by a government that whose major industry is repression, not only of Palestinians but around the world.
With placards and a loudspeaker they highlighted that Israel had broken the international boycott of apartheid South Africa – supplying it with military hardware and training, and helping build its nuclear industry; had armed the Argentinean junta even as it killed thousands, including many Jews; had helped arm and train the Rwandan military and Hutu militia which committed genocide against the Tutsis; and helped arm the Sri Lankan government with warfare technology, including drones, enabling it to massacre tens of thousands of Tamils.*
Protestors were shocked that the Tricycle was not only using security guards who refused to identify themselves, but also that a vanload of police had been called on an entirely peaceful protest. The protestors, who are mainly local residents and the Tricycle’s most loyal audience, have written to the new artistic director of the Tricycle, Indhu Rubasingham, to say: “Given that Israeli apartheid is not loved, especially in multi-racial Kilburn . . . Is this who the Tricycle wants to be associated with?
They also ask that the Tricycle to do what it says it does: bringing unheard voices into the mainstream. That is, to take a stand for justice and peace and against repression. They see the Tricycle’s association with Israel as a betrayal of this standard and are set to do another protest on the evening of 13 Nov – when a film sponsored by the Zionist Federation about Herzl (the founder of modern Zionism) will be shown.
* Israel’s Worldwide Role in Repression
http://israelglobalrepression.wordpress.com
Protestors, who have valued the Tricycle for decades through its vitally informative and entertaining plays about Afghanistan, Ireland’s Bloody Sunday, US Guantanamo, the Stephen Lawrence Inquiry, and more, are appalled at the Tricycle hosting a film festival sponsored by a government that whose major industry is repression, not only of Palestinians but around the world.
With placards and a loudspeaker they highlighted that Israel had broken the international boycott of apartheid South Africa – supplying it with military hardware and training, and helping build its nuclear industry; had armed the Argentinean junta even as it killed thousands, including many Jews; had helped arm and train the Rwandan military and Hutu militia which committed genocide against the Tutsis; and helped arm the Sri Lankan government with warfare technology, including drones, enabling it to massacre tens of thousands of Tamils.*
Protestors were shocked that the Tricycle was not only using security guards who refused to identify themselves, but also that a vanload of police had been called on an entirely peaceful protest. The protestors, who are mainly local residents and the Tricycle’s most loyal audience, have written to the new artistic director of the Tricycle, Indhu Rubasingham, to say: “Given that Israeli apartheid is not loved, especially in multi-racial Kilburn . . . Is this who the Tricycle wants to be associated with?
They also ask that the Tricycle to do what it says it does: bringing unheard voices into the mainstream. That is, to take a stand for justice and peace and against repression. They see the Tricycle’s association with Israel as a betrayal of this standard and are set to do another protest on the evening of 13 Nov – when a film sponsored by the Zionist Federation about Herzl (the founder of modern Zionism) will be shown.
* Israel’s Worldwide Role in Repression
http://israelglobalrepression.wordpress.com
Michael Kalmanovitz
e-mail:
uk@ijsn.net
Homepage:
www.ijsn.net
Comments
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Say no
06.11.2013 17:41
Jewish
How many anti-semitic blood libels ...
06.11.2013 19:20
... can you fit into one photo?
Welcome
06.11.2013 19:20
to
not anti semetic
06.11.2013 22:46
The whole thing about Jews and the Semetic Race has always been misunderstood ...
Semetic Race are a Most of the People who come from the Area Stretching from Syria to Libya Along the Mediteranean... The North was the Old Phoenician Empire ..
So therefore Most Arabs of that area are in Fact Semetic ... So Arabs Can not be Anti-Semetic ..
Many many Jews that live in Israel as well as Jews from Europe are Generally Not Semetic by race.
So when People refer to Anti Semetic What they really mean is Generally Anti Jew and or Anti Zionist .
Domeq
How language is used
07.11.2013 13:12
The question is not whether antisemitic SHOULD be used for a different meaning based upon the origins of the roots of the word. The question is how the word has been and is used by the language.
That is perfectly clear in this case.
MDN
@litigationexpert
07.11.2013 17:19
The placards refer to the state of 'Israel' established in Palestine in 1948 which has been responsible for all the actions mentioned on the placards. So they are not libelous.
Any 'blood' association with the word 'Israel' has been permanently tarred by the actions of the state that styled itself such, fully intending to exploit all the religious and sentimental fervour that comes with it
Sue Then
Possible explanation for your consideration?
08.11.2013 13:23
1) WHO has organized and is actually putting on this film festival?
2) WHO is the intended audience of this film festival?
3) If the people involved (the WHO's above) are NOT of the Israeli state, not even Israelis, then do you not understand why THEY might perceive you are attacking THEM.
The question (in their case) would NOT be the rights and wrongs of Israel vs the Palestinians but whether they as your fellow Brits have the right to disagree with you, to put on any d*mn film festival they wish to. That is why they might see this as an attack on THEMSELVES. That is why they might interpret things on signs as "code words" standing in for something else.
MDN
THEM and US - why?
08.11.2013 23:41
The article describes coherently what the protest is about, no mention of jew hatred or such like.
In fact the screenings promoters have taken it upon themselves to introduce the word “Jewish” and as a counter, the protesters have also adopted the term as their protest umbrella ie. International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network.
Now, the words “Jewish” or “Jews” are not naughty words that cannot be uttered for fear of reprisal – or are they?
When you said;
“they might interpret things on signs as "code words" standing in for something else.”
Well isn't that THEIR problem? If one is going to challenge oppression it will serve one well not to stumble at the first fence, that being the fence of imposed guilt and shame?
I doubt very much that any of those in the above picture has ever contemplated harming anybody and would quite happily engage in an informative discussion about the issues in a friendly and courteous manner.
Now my questions to you are;
Why are WE so overly-sensitive about THEM?
Is it because THEY somehow made US feel that way?
Is there any connection between THEM and israel, the Jewish State?
Does OUR over-sensitivity aid israel's oppressive behaviour toward the Palestinians?
Thanks for reading and hopefully, replying.
jesse
Responding
09.11.2013 15:00
Well PERHAPS things are different where you are? But when we have these film festivals over here (and we do) I know very well who organized them, personally in the case of those held in my immediate area, and they aren't Israelis. What exactly do you mean by "sponsored"? WHO exactly?
"The article describes coherently what the protest is about, no mention of jew hatred or such like.
In fact the screenings promoters have taken it upon themselves to introduce the word “Jewish” and as a counter, the protesters have also adopted the term as their protest umbrella ie. International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network. Now, the words “Jewish” or “Jews” are not naughty words that cannot be uttered for fear of reprisal – or are they?
When you said; “they might interpret things on signs as "code words" standing in for something else.” Well isn't that THEIR problem? If one is going to challenge oppression it will serve one well not to stumble at the first fence, that being the fence of imposed guilt and shame?"
You REALLY don't get it. Jews do NOT feel ashamed to be Jews.
"I doubt very much that any of those in the above picture has ever contemplated harming anybody and would quite happily engage in an informative discussion about the issues in a friendly and courteous manner.
Now my questions to you are;
Why are WE so overly-sensitive about THEM?
Is it because THEY somehow made US feel that way?
Is there any connection between THEM and israel, the Jewish State?
Does OUR over-sensitivity aid israel's oppressive behaviour toward the Palestinians?
Thanks for reading and hopefully, replying."
How old are you? I am older than the state of Israel and I remember growing up before the image of Israel as a fighting nation was established. Was I threatened then? (as a child). You bet I was. Now? The image is entirely different. The kids growing up today don't have the same experience. There may indeed still be dislike of Jews but not seem as a target that can safely be beat up on (with the adults standing aside complicit -- not unlike bullying cases today. And I don't give too hoots if you consider me "oversensitive". Understand? Don't give too hoots what THEY consider at all.
Please take note of EXACTLY what I was talking about. Yes of course, those organizing this protest against the event AND against the venue are taking the position that not against "the local Jews". Just against the Israelis and "international Zionists" who they say organized the event. And perhaps they actually believe the event was organized by the state of Israel and foreign Jews. I was talking about the fact that IF (as I suspect to be the case) the event was actually organized by local Jews (and they of course know that) then THEIR take in matters is going to be very different.
MDN
Teat-owl to Night-owl are you receiving me...
09.11.2013 20:53
“What exactly do you mean by "sponsored"? WHO exactly?”
I took the word “sponsored” from the article, used three times. If the relevant screenings are not “sponsored “ by the israel's or supporters there of, then I stand corrected. Maybe the author, Michael Kalmanowitz from ijsn, could enlighten readers to the reason for this perceived potential inaccuracy.
“You REALLY don't get it. Jews do NOT feel ashamed to be Jews.”
Er, what I meant was that people should not feel ashamed or guilty about challenging israel's actions because it declares itself “the jewish state”, hence, have a fear of offending the jews.
“How old are you?”
Old enough Pops, with plenty of life experience.
“and I remember growing up before the image of Israel as a fighting nation was established.”
Have you seen the exchange between Finklestein and Ra'anan Gissen, where Gissen brags about his father rolling up in Palestine holding a bible in one hand and a gun in the other. Hmmm, seems like the occupiers had a different take on realising israeli ambitions.
At 6:30mins
“And I don't give too hoots if you consider me "over-sensitive".”
Owlright mate, we're only talking. Btw did you mean “two hoots”? Only kiddin'. Hey don't underestimate your input, it's very interesting.
“I was talking about the fact that IF (as I suspect to be the case) the event was actually organized by local Jews (and they of course know that) then THEIR take in matters is going to be very different.”
Yes, IF indeed. Maybe your good self should establish the facts first before succumbing to a certain kind of pre traumatic stress syndrome which time and time again proves unhelpful in the pursuit of peace and justice. I too will make efforts to ascertain the facts. Cheers
jesse
The Embassy of Israel
10.11.2013 00:57
Lest there be any doubt, the organisers help clear it up:
"We aim to develop a culture where Jewish and Israeli film is recognized and enjoyed by the widest possible audience, and position Jewish related film at the heart of British culture."
"Our work encourages pride of, and knowledge in, our Jewish culture amongst our younger generations and promotes understanding and awareness towards Jewish and Israeli people and culture."
So, if there is a conflation of local and international it seems to be by the organisers themselves, funded by the Embassy of Israel, amongst others.
lynx
Homepage:
http://ukjewishfilm.org/sponsors/
holy shmoly
10.11.2013 10:20
So MDN, it's clear the organisers of the film festival themselves are right up apartheid israels proverbial. It's there in blue and white, just take a look at lynx links linking the UK jewish film promoters to the Zionist Federation, New Israel Fund et al.
So on reflection would you maybe now agree that the protests/placards are valid and to hell with any “locals” sensitivities? Unless of course you support the State of israel, but surely that would be contrary to what IMuk is supposed to be about, you know, against state oppression, eviction, murder, rape, organ trafficking, apartheid, internment etc etc etc.
With that said,
“I was talking about the fact that IF (as I suspect to be the case) the event was actually organized by local Jews (and they of course know that) then THEIR take in matters is going to be very different.”
then THOSE local jews should be thanking the protesters for the reality check, dontcha think?
jesse
This should make it clear why we see things so far apart?
10.11.2013 12:59
Now just who the h*ll do you image people the Zionist Federation or the New Israel Fund. OK, OK, perhaps it's different in Britain. But we have both of those organizations active over here too and guess what, that's AMERICAN JEWS running those branches (not Israelis).
So let's get this clear? You aren't against Jews in general, just against the Jews who support Israel? Or perhaps just against those who won't join you in opposing Israel. Well guess what friend, that's MOST of them, so your distinction, which perhaps means something to you is going to mean zip to them. Remember where this started, my trying to explain WHY they would see things differently that you.
I'll repeat. The Jews WILL interpret "I don't hate (am not against) Jews in general; just the ones I consider to be acting badly" as "I hate (am against) Jews".
MDN
wondering about wandering
10.11.2013 16:09
In a previous comment on this thread you alluded to “threats” on your person whilst in your youth, yet seem unable to come to terms with the incidents and they still, in your dotage, have great bearing on your outlook. Have you asked yourself why? Do you think it plausible that your jewish identity may hold the key? A foundation block of the jewish identity is the “eternal suffering wandering lost chosen ones”, that is drummed into the minds of jewish children by their parents, rabbis, synagogues, rituals etc from day one.
Now, when you said ;
“Jews do NOT feel ashamed to be Jews.”
Well I look at it this way. When the catholic church got exposed for prolific child rape, the whole catholic congregation should feel a collective shame for aligning themselves with an organisation that perpetrates such abuse and goes contrary to christ's teachings. Now in the same way, the jews should feel ashamed that their good name is dragged through the shit by israel perpetrating horrific abuse on the Palestinians for nigh on 70years.
You said;
“Or perhaps just against those who won't join you in opposing Israel. Well guess what friend, that's MOST of them,”
Hmmm, I wouldn't know because I haven't listened to most of the jews, but let's say that's the case, then YES the JEWS should feel ashamed of their support for israel and it's crimes against the Semites of the Middle East and others elsewhere.
When you say;
“The Jews WILL interpret "I don't hate (am not against) Jews in general; just the ones I consider to be acting badly" as "I hate (am against) Jews".”
This reads as if the jews are in some kind of position of superiority, where one should be careful of criticising them for fear of rejection. Well that don't wash. They, as for everyone else, will be judged on their actions and consequently will be held accountable for any crimes committed against humanity.
Has it occurred to you that MOST people on the planet probably don't give two joots about the jewish historical narrative? And why should they?
jesse
Preciselu
10.11.2013 17:10
Has it occurred to you that MOST people on the planet probably don't give two joots about the jewish historical narrative? And why should they? "
But you don't get it, do you?
OF course the Jews don't imagine that most people on the planet give two hoots about the Jewish historical narrative. Nor do they expect them to. That would be counter to their experience, to their historical narrative.
Why do imagine for one moment that you believe I/we should be ashamed of ourselves for supporting our tribal* interests. Maybe you might want to look at the historical narrative of say the last 150+ years? A hundred years or so ago the majority of them WERE seeking solution of their
Jewish problem through immersion in the social movements of Europe, especially the revolutionary movements that promised a solution. Well that didn't work out so well, did it. So now they "go it alone".
Again back to the beginning of my comments. We aren't discussing why YOU don't have the reaction that they do but why THEY do.
* The terms "nation" and "state" are NOT the same. Thus before 1850 you could speak of a German nation or an Italian nation but NOT a German or an Italian state. The Jews weren't a state for almost 2000 years but remained a nation. But the term "tribal" does fit better describing what they are (some nations tribal, other not). They are technically a matrilineal tribe in terms of how group membership is defined.
MDN
PS
10.11.2013 17:18
You'd have to be a VERY good programmer for me not to be able to leave you far behind designing and coding software.
You think we haven't paid our radical dues in the 60's? I rather suspect I've been on a lot more picket lines, taken part in a lot more demos and actions than you. Still active, mainly in the radical environmental scene.
MDN
setting the record straight
10.11.2013 19:38
It is Israel that describes itself as a “Jewish” state, & Zionist hasbara (propaganda) that constantly refers to the Israeli state speaking for all Jewish people. We are Jewish, and the Israeli state does not speak for us.
Let me state the obvious: Jewish people and Zionists are not the same thing. Zionists incessantly conflate the two, and then complain that antizionism is antisemitism. And the accusation of antisemitism is insistently used to try to shut down criticism of Israel – it increasingly doesn’t work.
On 13 November we will have another protest outside the Tricycle – see
In publicising this protest we say: “ [In promoting the Zionist state, Herzl] was ready to make deals with, for example, Russian Minister of the Interior von Plevhe, organizer of the 1903 anti-Jewish pogrom at Kishenev – 47 dead and a thousand injured. This was the forerunner of future Zionist deals with French and British imperialism, and, most notoriously, with Nazi Germany.”
[For Herzl ‘s meetings with von Phleve see Lenni Brenner’s The Iron Wall,
We oppose Zionism for many reasons: not only is our commitment is to the dismantling of Israeli apartheid, the return of Palestinian refugees, and the ending of the Israeli colonization of historic Palestine; but also to highlight the Zionist betrayal of the long histories of Jewish participation in collective liberation struggles; and oppose Zionist collusion with repressive and violent regimes. [see
A final point: everything written on the placards is referenced & verifiable in our pamphlet, Israel’s Worldwide Role in Repression
Hope to see you on Wednesday.
Michael Kalmanovitz
e-mail:
uk@ijsn.net
Homepage:
www.ijsn.net
Narcissistic tendencies blowing in the wind
10.11.2013 20:27
You said;
“OF course the Jews don't imagine that most people on the planet give two hoots about the Jewish historical narrative.”
Is that why the media, main stream and independent, is dominated by jewish issues and narrative? For example there's a radio programme called Radio 4 on the BBC that manages to somehow weave jewness into virtually any topic, on a daily basis. Give it a listen, see what you think. Hardly what I'd call “going it alone”, more like attention seeking at every opportunity.
Even movies are peppered with jewisms. For instance, even the American Werewolf in London turns out to be jewish, as alluded to by the nurses in the hospital scene.
As a jew, when you hear such references in the media, do you feel exposed or a sense of tribal pride? I am very interested in hearing your opinion as I've often wondered about this.
“Why do imagine for one moment that you believe I/we should be ashamed of ourselves for supporting our tribal* interests”
Since you mention the Germans in your *, do you think the Germans should feel tribal shame for any shit they might have got up to in the past? Or in your opinion, is arrogance just a jewish preserve?
“...especially the revolutionary movements that promised a solution.”
Could you explain that please. I wasn't aware that any of the historical revolutionary movements had a jewish homeland figuring high on the to-do list. Are you saying that was the real agenda of the high profile jewish revolutionaries?
“We aren't discussing why YOU don't have the reaction that they do but why THEY do.”
I thought we were discussing why YOU have the reaction that YOU do and possibly how it could be improved so as not to feed your self-fulfilling prophesy of alienation and rejection.
PS
Haha, yes I didn't mean “dotage” in a derogatory way. Maybe a more suitable euphemism would be, your goldenstein years.
I hope your coding is more accurate than your spelling, Mr Preciselu :D
No seriously, well done on keeping your faculties in good working order, perhaps though, you could turn the arrogance down a notch or two, we wouldn't want people thinking you were an israeli.
“You think we haven't paid our radical dues in the 60's?”
I see it more that the radicals have been paying the jews since the 60's and before. Bob Dylan for one, has been leading a merry dance for decades only to end up wailing on the stage in israel with an audience full of occupiers.
“I rather suspect I've been on a lot more picket lines, taken part in a lot more demos and actions than you. Still active, mainly in the radical environmental scene.”
Pssst, have a word with the mods and see if they'll edit the above sentence, it looks bad and don't do nowt for your cred. Bragging about your activism is a sure sign of low self-esteem but then again if the cap fits.... Hey check this out gold timer;
btw when you read the words gold timer did you smile and say to yourself “I like that”. 'Twas just for you.
jesse
2 jews 1 opinion?
10.11.2013 23:57
“Our commitment is to the dismantling of Israeli apartheid,”
Does that mean;
A. Ok with israel as long as it's not apartheid
or
B. a commitment to the dismantling of the apartheid state of israel, like what the Neturei Karta jews say.
or
C. something else
Thanks
jesse
in response
11.11.2013 13:14
Our job is to support the Palestinian struggle to survive, to hold their ground and to advance their movement on their own terms.
One example of dismantling Israeli apartheid would be to dismantle the Israeli law of return: that is, where any person that Israel deems is Jewish is able to settle in Palestine; while it dispossesses Palestinians from their own homes & lands and compels them to be refugees.
I’m glad that Neturei Karta is so public in its antizionism. I know they say that the concept of a Jewish state is contrary to Jewish law. But I’m not a member of Neturei Karta, nor am I religious – so I can’t speak about what they mean.
The something else? There is so much! But I think the coming together of movements is essential in building support for the Palestinian struggle. For example, the Stop the JNF Campaign, where the Green, anti-racist, LGBQT, land, antizionist movements, etc, have come together, internationally, to challenge the charitable status of the JNF, which is not a charity but a means of ethnic cleansing.
As you can see we have been publicising the extent & horror of the Israeli arms trade. Anti-drones campaigning is another important aspect of supporting the Palestinian struggle, and undermining Israeli and, its prime support, US militarism.
Michael Kalmanovitz
e-mail:
uk@ijsn.net
Homepage:
www.ijsn.net
Maybe this will help?
11.11.2013 14:44
"I’m glad that Neturei Karta is so public in its antizionism. I know they say that the concept of a Jewish state is contrary to Jewish law. But I’m not a member of Neturei Karta, nor am I religious – so I can’t speak about what they mean."
I'm not "frum" either but I think I can explain what they mean (and perhaps this might change your mind). But first I should point out that they don't speak even for the rest fo the "Hassidic" frum let alone all of the the frum community. Some of which is very Zionist, other parts at odds with the state of Israel because NOT imposing strict religious law, etc.
OK -- "story" you have probably heard before so I'll shorten it. There is a man who awakens to find himself in a pit in the desert. Being very religious, he calls on G-d to save him. Along comes a band of shepherds. They ask the man in the pit, "should we pull you out?" and he tells them not to bother, G_d will save him. Later another band of shepherds comes by, same thing. Finally an angel appears and calls down to the man, "what's wrong with you. I already sent two bands of shepherds.
The Neturei Karta people are extremely god fearing, think like that man in the pit. They do NOT differ from other religious Jews in believing that the day of return will one day come. They are simply rejecting human action to bring this about as hubris. They are waiting for G-d to clear the land for them.
"Israeli and, its prime support, US militarism."
No - you really don't understand WHY there is such strong US support for Israel. Nothing to do with US militarism >. The US supports Israel because of INTERNAL political considerations. It is the cheapest price (little INTERNAL cost) for politicians to obtain Jewish support. Don't be deceived by imagining something nefarious because Jews not that numerous. Except for only one or two places in the US there is always more gained than lost for the politicians because almost nobody aligned on the other side of the question as a PRIME concern. Here, almost any "one issue" interest group can get its way unless opposed by a counterbalancing interest group equally single issue. You only think you count (but your effort is being spread over too many issues). The Arab-Americans DO count but remember, those that are Christian Lebanese and Christian Syrians might not join in. That's why I said "except for a few places" (those being where there IS significant Arab-American clout that is anti-Israel).
Understand? On all other issues (internal to the US) the American Jews are split. So for a pol to appeal to them on one of those entails losses as well as gains. There isn't anything else besides support for Israel by which their communal support can be gained > I'll repeat, the anti-religious left is split over a zillion issues besides Israel (for example, would they vote for a capitalist pol who however had the "right" position on Israel vs Palestinians?)
MDN
@Michael
12.11.2013 01:11
It is 70years into the struggle and the pinnacle of organised ijsn “jew help” is to challenge the charitable status of the JNF. What real difference will that make? Is the intention to strike at the israeli coffers?
As you already know the israeli supporting jewish people are well acquainted with finance, and will find any restriction on the JNF's charitable status, a mild irritation and nothing more.
The groups you mentioned have strong jewish leanings, which as MDN has pointed out, will undoubtedly have an “israel has a right to exist” ethos, thus severely undermining any real action for Palestinian liberation. One may call it gate-keeping, granted not always consciously, but still gate-keeping in real terms.
As MDN has demonstrated, jews are not the best people to be running any Palestinian support efforts. The tribal mind-set conditioning is so strong that it is virtually impossible for them to empathise with “the other”. A little guilt driven sympathy maybe, but nothing more.
A man called Gilad Atzmon has been wrestling with this “jewish identity” issue and it's ramifications for more than two decades now and it has been no picnic. He lays out his findings in his book, The Wandering Who, which is worth reading, jew or not.
Michael, has it ever struck you as odd, that virtually all the visible Palestinian support discourse is jew-centric? The pro israeli jews arguing against the “pro” Palestinian jews going round and round in mini tribal jew squabbles, accusations and rebuttals, arrogant ego trips dominating the discourse? And again as MDN pointed out virtually all jews support the existence of israel, though some feel a little bit uncomfortable with all the killing, rape and torture.
Does this sound like a reasoned thing to say? – There are approximately 18 million jews living in the world. 6 million live in the racist apartheid occupying state called israel, and virtually all the remaining 12 million world-wide jews support them. There appears no evidence to the contrary.
Though a very small number of jews world-wide take issue with israeli government policy regarding the abuses routinely carried out on the Palestinians, the jewish Palestinian support network stops well short of total dismantlement of the israeli regime and state.
October 2013
Israel to demolish 15,000 Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem
Please respond, thanks
jesse
@MDN
12.11.2013 01:57
“go it alone”
Would you say that was an accurate description when israel received, for example, over £3,000,000,000 (billion) in aid and loan guarantees in 1997?;
and
jesse
'MOST of them'
12.11.2013 07:19
Perhaps the clearest summing up I have ever seen in Indymedia uk of why those who oppose the Apartheid policies of the Israeli state are then accused of racism.
The part where anyone said they were 'against Jews' of any description escapes me. Although there is clear criticism of Zionism and Apartheid.
Palestine is STILL the issue
NK = Fred Phelps
12.11.2013 12:27
They're the Fred Phelps and godhatesfags.com of Judaism. They're a marginal freakshow rejected not only by the mainstream but essentially all of Judaism. They *claim* to speak in the name of "true Judaism," but then Fred Phelps's group *claims* to speak in the name of "true Christianity." They're both equally marginal and equally full of shit.
Neturai Karta - the part of it you cite, and that went to Iran to be part of Ahmadinejad's "let's celebrate Holocaust denial" conference - is really only part of Neturai Karta, which is in turn only a tiny fragment of Satmar, which is in turn only part of Orthodox Judaism, which is in turn only part of Judaism as a religion, which in turn is only part of Jewish culture.
Anyone who wants to hold them up as what they think Judaism "really" is plainly knows squat about Jewish life and is trapped in a cartoonish oversimplification.
reality check
Making progress?
12.11.2013 14:05
NO ---- it is NOT a very small number of Jews world-wide that take issues with Israeli policy. Quite a few of us are critical of Israeli policy.
What IS a miniscule number is the subset of those that consider the solution to this the elimination of Israel.
And I want to raise a matter that might at first not be obvious. It is POSSIBLE that those of you who are expressing a negative attitude to the tribalism of the Jews are sincerely opposed to tribalism. In fact, I am sure that at least a few of you are. This was an ideological element in some of the left (tribalism distracts people from identifying by economic class only).
It will be easy for you to demonstrate whether you are in fact sincere or not and by that I am not actually accusing you of conscious dishonesty but self delusion. If you are actually against tribalism and not simply against Jews (using THEIR tribalism as an excuse) you should be able to bring yourselves to criticize ALL tribal peoples for their primary identification with their tribes. Can you? Can you bring yourselves to demand that all tribal peoples cease this archaic means of identification? That they cease to exist as tribes?
Let's see your anti Roma, anti Sami, anti Kurd, anti Tamil, anti all the tribes over here rants.
If you have a problem with that, contemplate WHY you have the problem.
MDN
racism is racism
12.11.2013 16:20
You mean, like the Holocaust deniers like Francis Clarke-Lowes voted out of the PSC in 2011? Nothing racist about them, right?
Or do you believe being pro-Palestinian instantly conveys complete immunity to antisemitism?
What have *you* done, personally, to combat antisemitism in the pro-Palestinian movement? I've had my fill of "We are against Israel because we think it's racist, and here to talk about how bad Israel is our friendly neighborhood Holocaust denier."
When your view of Israel is colored by the sort of "good Jew" "bad Jew" "black hat, white hat" stuff that the NK are so happy to cash in on, you're simply not going to have any success reaching a broad Jewish audience. MDN is right to point that out. Put down the cartoon caricatures if you want to get anywhere understanding reality.
reality recheck
Reality cheek?
12.11.2013 18:46
So,because the NK jews are so minuscule in number, their voice means nothing? Because they call for immediate cessation of israeli aggression towards the Palestinians, their Judaism is fake? Because they put their lives on the line for a people's not of their “tribe”, they're a bunch of clowns? Because, since you mentioned it, they challenge aspects of the holocaust narrative, they're full of shit, even though some of their number were interned in nazi camps and perished there?
Steady on ffs, you sound like an anti-semite!?!
Now listen up, the NK are a gentle peace-lovin' group of people who happen to adhere to a form of Judaism. They don't go around killing, raping and torturing people. They don't demolish peoples houses, then take over the land. They don't financially and emotionally exploit the memory of the jewish experience of WW2. They don't have 400+ nuclear weapons, itching to use them on innocent civilians. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
You said;
“Anyone who wants to hold them up as what they think Judaism "really" is plainly knows squat about Jewish life and is trapped in a cartoonish oversimplification.”
Haha, that made me laugh. Let's see now;
Talking snakes? - check
Talking bushes? - check
Pushing down stone temples with bare arms? - check
Parting of the sea? - check
An on-going falling out with the invisible man in the sky? - aaaannd check!
Yes, I see what you mean “reality check”, all of Judaism appears to be based on a whole series of cartoon imagery. But hey Noah, what ever floats yer boat.
Come on “reality check”, no need to hurl abuse about, engage.
Here's a question for you;
After the terrible experiences the jewish people suffered in WW2 why, only 3yrs after the war's cessation, did the jewish people inflict such heinous crimes, for 7 decades, upon the innocent Palestinian population?
Btw Here's the “cartoonish” NK defending 'the other' whilst being set upon by, to paraphrase your words, the true jews, hmmm nasty;
jesse
honesty or mis-direction?
12.11.2013 19:14
“Let's see your anti Roma, anti Sami, anti Kurd, anti Tamil, anti all the tribes over here rants.”
You show me yours first and I'll show you mine :D
Ok, I think this is where you don't understand the discussion. Being part of a tribe ain't no big beef. Where the problems arise is when tribalism, ie the strong feeling of identity with and loyalty to one's tribe or group, comes before everything, namely the blatant killing and abuse of innocents etc.
If we're against oppression here on Imuk, then so be it, no exceptions.
The oppression executed by the jewish israelis upon the Palestinians is systemic. What are you doing about it, except trying to defend it through the back door?
jesse
turn it down a notch will ya
12.11.2013 21:50
Steady on ffs, you sound like an anti-semite!?! "
Wow, jam a few words in my mouth why dont ya. Turn down the hysteria a notch or two. If you're trying to show how deeply connected with and thoroughly knowledgable of the realities of Jewish life you are, you're heading in the wrong direction by trying to make NK out as anything but a fragmentary little sideshow always searching for the next photo op, which is what they are. But you are apparently too deep into your "good Jew" "bad Jew" framework to see what we're actually saying, because that little side show just happens to match up with your politics.
Except it really doesn't if you look a little closer. You do know, for example, that the NK also believes that God will destroy the Temple of the Rock so that the Jews can have the Temple Mount back, right? You okay with that? See what your "good Jew" "bad Jew" gets you hooked up with?
Whatever their voice may or may not mean, it doesn't mean what they say it means, which is "NK is the true Jews, our stance is somehow really-really-really Jewish in a way others is not, and everyone else is a lesser Jew for it."
And - "they challenge aspects of the holocaust narrative" - wow, you're really, really in over your head, aren't you. It's because of people like you buying into neo-Nazi framing without knowing it that Palestinian solidarity took almost a decade before it could get rid of its Holocaust deniers.
Reality is messy. If you're really interested in doing something about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, you can start by putting down the cartoon version of Jewish reality.
reality check
lead the way moses, I'm all ears
13.11.2013 00:49
That was a good comment rc, with some interesting views.
There is no jamming of words in your mouth going on, it's called a discussion. There is no hysteria, just real interest.
I know a little bit about “jewish”, but I am certainly not “deeply connected” or “thoroughly knowledgeable” that's why we're talking. So that you and MDN can give an insight into the jewish perspective of support for israel on Imuk.
So far I'm feeling that both of you are quite defensive, hostile and suspicious of any attempt to inquire or explore the motivation for the jewish state of israel's modus operandi.
Yeah, you might be right about NK, but I'll judge 'em on what they do. Not on what collective fantasy they may share about the invisible man in the sky zapping one of his own sacred buildings.
To answer your question, yes I'm okay with that. People can think what they like. It's not up to you and me to dictate others thoughts.
And besides, the dome zap doesn't sound any worse than 2000 year old biblical title deeds served up by cut-throat European jews demanding ownership.
You too have been pushing the “good jew bad jew” narrative, with your attacks and belittling of the Nkers.
You said;
“wow, you're really, really in over your head, aren't you.”
I have thought that a few times believe me, but on balance it's better to explore than be mentally frozen by fear of offending. I'd be interested if you'd answer the question in my last comment.
“It's because of people like you buying into neo-Nazi framing ...”
People like me eh? Please expand, seriously.
“without knowing it that Palestinian solidarity took almost a decade before it could get rid of its Holocaust deniers.”
And reassign the power to whom exactly? Whose power was threatened by these so called "Holocaust deniers"?
Yes reality is messy, I agree. So why introduce “cartoon” metaphors to create further division in Palestinian support? Could you give me a short list of what you consider useful and truthful, in understanding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Thank you.
jesse
checking out
13.11.2013 13:46
- You're trapped in the two-dimensional "good Jew" "bad Jew" cartoon. Those caricatures aren't gonna do a damn thing to get Jews to listen to you.
- You're treating the NK as if they aren't on the margin of the margin. The only thing the NK excels at is self-promotion - for a group of a hundred or so, they've got people like you convinced that they alone are the real deal. This is position of basic ignorance from which you tell Jews what to do.
- To you Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial party was merely "challenging aspects of the holocaust narrative" - the Holocaust denier's favorite euphemism for lying about WWII. Do you know you're using the neo-Nazi word choice on this? Probably not. Because you're in so far over your head.
It turns out the only thing you really know about the Jews is how bad you think most of them are and how you, in your infinitely superior knoweldge and wisdom, would prefer them all to be, if only they'd listen to your lectures.
Where should you start if you want to break out of your stereotypes? Any good mainstream history of the Jews. Try Paul Johnson's "A History of the Jews" or your local library.
And if you want to find out what is so fucking offensive about calling Holocaust denial a mere case of "challenging aspects of the holocaust narrative" - and I think you just don't have any clue of just how massive a "Fuck The Jews" you're giving when you say that - go read the Wikipedia article on what Holocaust denial is, and you'll understand why your euphemisms paint you in a very bad light indeed.
So no surprise that we're not exactly baking you a cake. Done here.
reality check
understanding the cake recipe
13.11.2013 20:43
You said;
“I think you need to get out of your own head a little bit.”
Tut tut! I hope you're not suggesting smokin' a couple of j's or something!!!
“You're treating the NK as if they aren't on the margin of the margin.”
Once again, minorities are irrelevant? Interesting.
“The only thing the NK excels at is self-promotion”
Thought that was par for the course.
“they've got people like you convinced that they alone are the real deal.”
Where it is you and you alone who is the “real deal”?
“This is position of basic ignorance from which you tell Jews what to do. “
If you read back, carefully, through what's been written, you'll find that it is mainly you, the real deal, who has been telling people what to do and how to think.
“Do you know you're using the neo-Nazi word choice on this?”
No I didn't know, so thank you for pointing that out.
“if only they'd listen to your lectures.”
I'm not sure that what I've written could be strictly defined as a lecture, more of a discussion or chit-chat. Cheers for the compliment.
“Try Paul Johnson's "A History of the Jews" or your local library.”
Thanks, I'll make an effort to read it, and also the holocaust denial article on wiki that you mentioned. Have you read The Holocaust Industry by Norman Finkelstein?
Before you go, would you be so kind as to watch this short video, relax it's not about NK, and tell me, in a constructive way, how I should interoperate the exchanges.
“So no surprise that we're not exactly baking you a cake.”
The recipe 's no longer a secret.
I'll bake my own thanks, yours looks a tad soggy and past it's best x
jesse
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