Indymedia cover-up police agent-provocateurs at G20 –

Not all repression is hierarchical Rikki | 24.11.2012 12:19 | Repression

Met Police lying about undercover police agent-provocateurs at G20, AND SO ARE INDYMEDIA -

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2012/11/503123.html

These images are from the RT (TV) news coverage of the massive Madrid demo on Sept 25. The first image (1:36 into the Youtube video) shows 2 undercover cops, wearing jeans and black-bloc style hoodies, dragging a protestor along the ground by his arms. The hoodie on the left then drops the protestor's right arm, as a helmeted and truncheon-carrying riot cop takes over, grabbing the protestor's leg (2nd and 3rd images). Another cop joins in as they continue dragging the protestor towards the police van (4th image). Then the 2nd undercover cop rejoins the 1st hoodie (as picked-out by the blue light), both helping the uniformed cops to complete the arrest (5th image). Click on the images to enlarge. You can see the full sequence within the original video here -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ8yNywAOEk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wg3Q9D7yfA

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/10/g20-policing-agent-provacateurs

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jan/19/plain-clothes-metropolitan-police-g20

Not all repression is hierarchical Rikki

Additions

Cover Up ?? FFS

24.11.2012 12:42

How the feck can Indymedia "cover up" a news article that has been on Russia Today and reported in the fekin' liberal fekin Groiniad?

If you read the guidelines for posting to the site you will see that it says MSM reposts will in general be hidden.

plain clothes cops in demos - who'd have thunk it?

24.11.2012 12:55

So, you think that Indymedia readers are too dumb to find stuff in the corporate media?

Articles and/or comments may be hidden for the following reasons:

Reposts: Articles that are simply pasted from corporate news sites. Please write something original, by all means link to articles elsewhere and quote from them but don't just copy them.

https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/static/editorial.html

And thats all you give us - links to corporate sites - no news, nothing.

So, here's some original content that didn't get hidden:

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2011/11/488385.html

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2011/06/480720.html

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2011/11/488578.html

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2010/12/469338.html

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2011/11/488279.html

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2011/05/480224.html

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2012/02/492133.html

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2012/05/496347.html

And here is the email address to write to if you want to complain about moderation:

moderation@lists.indymedia.org.uk - the newswire is for news not for complaints.

Use of the site is not compulsory - and if it upsets you so much then avoid it and stick to the corporate media or forums which welcome links from people who can't be arsed to write up an article.

Indymedia was a reaction to the bias of the corporate media, not a vehicle to highlight its articles.

ftp

Comments

Hide the following 16 comments

Let's get one thing straight...

24.11.2012 13:03

Let's get one thing straight, I'm not anti black-bloc, but, as many people have said, the black-bloc is a strategy and not a group. The thing about strategies is that they need to be applied STRATEGICALLY, ie - people considering using those strategies need to think carefully about the advantages and disadvantages, the costs and benefits, of applying any strategy in any specific situation.

The benefits of BB strategies are probably obvious to everyone who advocates this approach, but activists need to be aware that if you apply a BB strategy, by virtue of participants' anonymity, right-wing agent provocateurs, undercover police and (as happens in Greece etc) Nazis WILL make the most of the opportunity and join in with or dress like the black-bloc, in order to frighten ordinary people away from participating in protests, to generate negative media coverage of important demos, and, in the case of the cops specifically, in order to facilitate arrests of activists

https://www.indymedia.co.uk/en/2012/09/500684.html?c=on

no black bloc - no repression?

24.11.2012 13:11

"but activists need to be aware that if you apply a BB strategy, by virtue of participants' anonymity, right-wing agent provocateurs, undercover police and (as happens in Greece etc) Nazis WILL make the most of the opportunity and join in with or dress like the black-bloc, in order to frighten ordinary people away from participating in protests, to generate negative media coverage of important demos, and, in the case of the cops specifically, in order to facilitate arrests of activists"

Are you suggesting that right wingers and cops won't join demos if there is no black bloc? Or that there will be no Agent Provocateurs if there is no black bloc? Or positive media coverage? or arrests?

See when you do more than just give us links you start showing your ideological colours - Indymedia has always been about DIVERSITY OF TACTICS - and if you want to know the main thing that keeps people away from demos its the cops and their oppressive tactics. Even when there is no black bloc some corporate journo or other will happily write up police warnings about tooled up anarchists set to turn the demo to violence.

ftp

IMC's response is misleading because -

24.11.2012 13:12

First the text comments you repeatedly censor are not part of the "corporate media" Rikky (( the comments accompanying this article, specifically, for instance -

https://www.indymedia.co.uk/en/2012/09/500684.html ))

Second has it ever occurred to you that some of the people who posted the extensive exposure of undercover cops at N9 (and many other protests) that you cite just might be the SAME people who are infuriated by you censoring their posts about agent-provocateurs and police undercovers at G20 and Madrid etc?!

Finally a huge portion of the comments posted on the newswire are complaints, if the articles themselves have become complaints that's in response to you trying to cover-up discussions of the shortcomings and weaknesses of the black-bloc, which need to be discussed OPENLY, not in IMC's private forums

Obviously -

24.11.2012 13:23

1. Obviously no-one is suggesting "that right wingers and cops won't join demos if there is no black bloc", what's being suggested is that FEWER right-wingers and cops will join demos when there's no BB, and that those right-wingers and cops that do join demos will therefore be easier to identify and therefore less willing to commit violence against activists

2. Granted Indymedia should be about about a DIVERSITY OF TACTICS, it should not however be reduced to censoring evidence that exposes the weaknesses of some tactics

3. Agreed the "the main thing that keeps people away from demos its the cops and their oppressive tactics" - thanks you!!! One of those tactics is the use of undercover cops and police agent provocateurs!!!

4. Speculating about your critics "ideological colours" is no more valid than speculation about the ideological motives of the BB. Re-posting photos of cops in hoodies arresting activists in Madrid however (photos which you chose to spike) is not speculation, it's PROOF

Thank you however (an all honest seriousness) for finally stopping censoring these specific articles!

"Take these silver bars," he said "I'm giving you command."

24.11.2012 13:23

There are discussions of the black bloc tactic on the site - and exactly because Indymedia is an open posting forum, it doesn't work as a discussion forum - because it is wide open to abuse.

The violence/non-violence debate has rolled on forever without ever being resolved.

So, what is the importance of those images from RT of arrests in Barcelona? Why should we be looking at them? What do they tell us? What do we learn from them?

Answer the questions and you've got an article which won't break the guidelines and get hidden.

If you think we should be moderating differently then email the list and discuss it with the people who do the moderation. If you can't be arsed then don't bother.

ftp

"All the rest are dead or in retreat Or with the enemy."

24.11.2012 13:28

"Thank you however (an all honest seriousness) for finally stopping censoring these specific articles! "

You still haven't explained how we can censor Russia Today and the Guardian. We don't even censor the articles we hide - they're available to anybody who wants to read them - as your links show. Nor have you expalined how we are " lying about undercover police agent-provocateurs".

I'm sure you're delighted that there's now a troll tastic thread on the site - but no thanks to you for your lack of respect for our structures, or for your repeated trolling.

Articles and/or comments may be hidden for the following reasons:

Disruptive: Contributions by individuals who habitually publish above mentioned discouraged content.

https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/static/editorial.html

ftp

FYI, the photos from Madrid

24.11.2012 13:44

Click to enlarge

and the You Tube video -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ8yNywAOEk

Kelvin

and again

24.11.2012 13:45

"So, what is the importance of those images from RT of arrests in Barcelona? Why should we be looking at them? What do they tell us? What do we learn from them? "

ftp

The answers

24.11.2012 14:10

Q - The violence/non-violence debate has rolled on forever without ever being resolved
A - As you know, the present debate is not the debate about violence / non-violence

Q - What is the importance of those images from RT of arrests in Barcelona? What do we learn from them?
A - As you know, the photos are from Madrid, and as you also know, what we learn from them is that police definitely used hoodies to facilitate arrests and to avoid being photographed by reporters and by protestors

Q - Answer the questions and you've got an article which won't break the guidelines and get hidden
A - You havn't properly answered any of the questions leveled at you above, but, as you know, your questions are being answered above, and again here, right now

Q - You still haven't explained how we can censor Russia Today and the Guardian
A - You weren't accused of censoring Russia Today and the Guardian

Q - We don't even censor the articles we hide
A - That's an oxymoron and you know it (the fact that you can't obliterate articles completely doesn't mean hiding them's not censorship)

Q - I'm sure you're delighted that there's now a troll tastic thread on the site
A - Agent provocateurs constantly troll Indymedia, unhindered, and you know it

Q - Articles and/or comments may be hidden for the following reasons
A - They can be and are hidden for many other reasons as well

Your silver bars

Hurrah! another step closer to liberty, equality and fraternity......

24.11.2012 14:21

"As you know, the photos are from Madrid, and as you also know, what we learn from them is that police definitely used hoodies to facilitate arrests and to avoid being photographed by reporters and by protestors"

So it wasn't news at all then?

ftp

Smashing pumpkins

24.11.2012 14:32

"I think, in the end, all videos ruin the song. They block the song into a mental image, and for the rest of your life you'll see that image with that song."

Billy Corgan

The state of the debate

24.11.2012 15:32

Your silver bars "As you know, the present debate is not the debate about violence / non-violence"

I know no such thing - here's how we got here.

The RT images were posted, hidden, repostedand rehidden several times, The poster developed some theory that the hiding of corporate images without commentary somehow meant that Indymedia was " lying about undercover police agent-provocateurs". Because the poster refused to engage with the lists, this thread was left up - the poster then started discussing the black bloc - which most certainly is part of the violence/non violence debate.

Besides that comment about Black-Bloc tactics the only other attempt to explain the relevance of the images was your comment, which appears to justify the original decision to hide.

Now, of course 'your silver bars' could be me, the complainant, a troll, a cop or anybody.

But what the debate is about is thrashing out why the original poster is so anal about these images. Why it is that Indymedia uk must carry them or face trolling.

And so far no real reason to leave them on the newswire has been presented.

If a troll decides to post every article from the Guardian here tomorrow should they be left up?

What do you think?

ftp

cops in hoodies

24.11.2012 18:29

Before the undercover cops wore hoodies on demos in places like London and Madrid and so on, they were wearing casual jackets with poltical badges on and palestinian scarves in places like Amsterdam and Copengahen in the 1980's. What's new - the cops have undercovers in demos.

hey everyone

25.11.2012 02:41

i know where this is all leading?

we start killing cops.

then we'll see who is really ready for change.

Francesca

moderation complaints on newswire

25.11.2012 14:03

"Finally a huge portion of the comments posted on the newswire are complaints, if the articles themselves have become complaints that's in response to you trying to cover-up discussions of the shortcomings and weaknesses of the black-bloc, which need to be discussed OPENLY, not in IMC's private forums"

First of all, the moderation email list for this IMC is NOT a private forum. It has openly public archives which anyone can read, whether they are subscribers or not:

https://lists.indymedia.org.uk/pipermail/moderation/

Notably, this is in contrast to several other UK IMCs which do not make their list archives public in this way.

Having said that, for real transparency and accountability, details of how to use that email list to make and monitor complaints should be much more prominent on the site.

anonymous

WTf

29.11.2012 14:06

"i know where this is all leading?

we start killing cops.

then we'll see who is really ready for change."

What are you talking about?

Are you calling for people to start to kill people for nothing more than thier occupation?
Which cops? the ones who bust human smuggleing rings and solve murders of children or the one who didnt wear a name badge on a demo and therefor MUST be attempting to cover his identity and beat people up?

I have been contributing to this site for ages and have yet to see anyone actualy come up with some considered ideas about the future of the UK that didnt involve death, repression, occupation based hangings and imprisonment.

Get a grip, whilst you still maintain this stupid childish tantrum you will be ignored and alienated by the population to whome you claim solidarity

anon