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Disavowing Disavowal: In Defense of Gilad Atzmon

David Rovics (Repost) | 28.03.2012 15:35 | Palestine | World

I've been on a concert tour in Europe, so far mostly in Great Britain, for the past month or so. There's nothing like being on tour to connect on a personal, face-to-face level with society, or at least the little subsets of society who come to my shows. Being a songwriter who writes songs about the Palestinian struggle, among other subjects, many of my shows around the world are organized by Palestine solidarity activists of one kind or another. Before the tour began I was getting occasional emails from people asking me whether I wanted to add my name to a group denunciation of jazz musician, blogger and author Gilad Atzmon. Denounce him for what, I asked. For being an anti-Semite, they replied. I'd then ask them to send me what he wrote that they found offensive, which they would then do (sometimes accompanied by an introductory essay explaining the distinction between anti-Zionsim and anti-Semitism). I'd then read every word, and each time, I'd fail to find the anti-Semitic bit. Then, ten days into my tour, the US Palestinian Community Network published a "Disavowal of the Racism and Antisemitism of Gilad Atzmon." Several of the signatories include Palestinian intellectuals and activists I know and admire.



Before and especially after their denunciation of Atzmon was published, several of my gigs in England and Scotland have included people handing out printed copies of the disavowal and telling me and other people in no uncertain terms that Atzmon is an anti-Semite, may be a Mossad agent, and may be (or is, depending on who you ask) a holocaust denier. ("Which holocaust" is not an appropriate question, so don't even think about asking. Just the question alone is enough to get you accused of being a denier in some quarters.)

Well, all the attention Atzmon was getting prompted me to fork up $9.99 for my first electronic book (and I'm very thankful that something got me to read a book again, as somehow or other it's been ages). I'm not a scholar, but I am an avid student of history and politics, and I thought Atzmon's book, The Wandering Who?, was a very thought-provoking read. There weren't any particularly new ideas in it, but it was a very well-organized, well-articulated, contemporary and at times, humorous 200-page analysis of Jewish identity.

From the outset, Atzmon makes it clear that his criticism of various aspects of Jewish tribal identity(s) for the past couple millenia is not aimed at the many people who happen to be born Jewish, but to what he identifies as "third category" Jews – Jews who identify primarily as Jewish, first and foremost. Growing up in the New York area with my eyes open and being of Jewish lineage myself, it is not hard to see that this third category exists, and in abundance, so it's also not hard to see why it's such an interesting subject to write a book about.

A cursory glance at history tells me that narrow tribal identity politics usually suck. Whether it's people defining themselves in terms of their nation, their region, their ethnicity, their football team, their religion, if people have convinced themselves that they're better than you, watch out. What Atzmon is doing here is deconstructing (to use a word he probably doesn't like) Jewish identity politics, specifically. He is not analyzing or denouncing tribalism in general, I assume because you gotta stop somewhere, but maybe he has other reasons, like just wanting to stick to the point, or perhaps a little bit of self-preservation.

Why, then, is Atzmon's intellectual exercise here getting both the Anti-Defamation League and even various good activists so riled up? Well, for different reasons, depending on who's feeling riled. In the case of people involved with Palestine solidarity in one form or another, I'd say it is not Atzmon's non-existent hatred of Jews that is the problem here. It is the fact that, in his position as an accomplished jazz musician and writer, he keeps talking about his views and upsetting people who identify with other narratives of Jewish religion, history and identity than Atzmon's. Some of these people he's pissing off include Jews and others who are involved with the movement to boycott Israeli products, etc. Because he's pissing them off, it doesn't really matter whether he's right, he should just shut up and stop rocking the boat, because he's distracting people from the very worthy cause of Palestinian self-determination.

Now there's where I can sympathize with Atzmon's detractors. There is, I'm sure, great strategic value in as united a front as possible. I'm not an organizer – just a musical cheerleader – so I don't know much first-hand about building a solid movement and that sort of thing, and I'm sure it's extremely difficult. I'm also sure it's extremely necessary. But as someone who has been studying history and politics for many decades, I have to say that Atzmon is only saying the things that so many people already know, and I, for one, am not going to pretend otherwise because shunning someone for stating the self-evident is more convenient for the movement in the short-term. If he is to be shunned for being unnecessarily divisive, or for having too dark a sense of humor, or for being overly confrontational or critical, fine, shun away. But if he is to be shunned because he is an anti-Semite, no, that's just nonsense.

I'm not going to lay out Atzmon's whole thing here. If you're curious, read the book – at least read the first two chapters before you decide to join in the shunning. But as a big fan of world history and the similarities and differences between the development of different societies over the millenia, as I was reading his book I kept thinking of other examples of tribal identity politics through the ages. One of the things I love about the US, despite a perennially despicable government committing one holocaust after another – the African holocaust, the Native American holocaust, the Korea holocaust, the Vietnam holocaust, not to mention the German and Japanese holocausts committed by the USAF – and despite all the efforts of racist pricks in power who do their best to maintain all sorts of divisions within American society – in the end, the US is full of hopelessly assimilated mutts like myself. It is, in fact, to no small extent, a melting pot, and although the bigotry that often is one of the factors that leads to assimilation must certainly be condemned, the fact that the country is full of people who, like me, can trace their ancestry to at least a dozen countries, tribes and historic religious affiliations, is a beautiful thing. It leaves many of us, especially those of us living comfortable lives, who are broadly accepted as part of a given society, perplexed by tribalism. For us assimilated types it doesn't come naturally, and if it is to exist it must be very purposefully ingrained. (Which is why the ADL hates Atzmon – he's interfering with the ingraining process with his book.)

I kept wondering, as I was reading Atzmon's book, what would reactions of the general public be like to a similarly critical deconstruction of Catholic religion and tribal identity? I suspect such a book would be taken very differently depending on the locale -- depending on whether you live in a place where Catholics are disproportionately living in poverty or faced with discrimination, or have been in such a position in living memory, such as Northern Ireland, as opposed to places like the US or the other 26 counties of Ireland. For example, I have never met anyone living in Belfast who would refer to themselves as a "recovering Catholic." Despite the efforts of the historically oppressed Catholic community in the northern six counties to distance themselves from the Catholic tribal identity and embrace a more inclusive, Republican identity (Protestants welcome!), the effect of centuries of anti-Catholic discrimination and oppression has left people with a much stronger attachment to their Catholic identity than most Catholics would tend to have in the Republic of Ireland or in the United States, where you will often meet people who, when asked if they grew up in a religious family or some other such question, will define themselves as a "recovering Catholic."

Most people immediately understand what is meant by "recovering Catholic." The emphasis may vary depending on the person and what their experiences were like, but most likely anyone "recovering" from being a Catholic is trying to recover from growing up in an atmosphere where they were led to believe that sex is bad, everyone else who doesn't believe the way we do is going to hell and should therefore be converted to my religion, abortion is a sin, homosexuality is a sin, etc. Yet if someone were to describe themselves as a "recovering Jew," in many cases the room would become uncomfortably quiet, I imagine, as people gradually walk away from the offending party, lest they be accused of anti-Semitism by standing too close. Except in Brooklyn or Tel Aviv, where being Jewish is quite normal and unexotic, and where most people would understand immediately (whether or not they like it) that this person is recovering from growing up in an environment where everyone who wasn't Jewish was a goy and was not to be trusted and was a closet anti-Semite, where you shouldn't marry a goy, where you're always either too Jewish or not Jewish enough, where you're a failure for not being a doctor or a lawyer, where you're part of a Chosen group of people and you're better than others, but don't say that in public or they'll say you poisoned the wells, etc.

Sticking with the Catholic example here, though, reading the "debate" (if you can call attack and counter-attack a debate) between Atzmon's detractors and supporters (some of whom appear to be lunatics), I was thinking about what a friend in West Belfast was telling me about some things that happened back in the day, during the Troubles. The IRA was, like so many movements, full of inevitable contradictions. So much of the Republican movement had a distinctly socialist orientation, and elements of the Republican movement were very critical of the Catholic church presently and historically, including even critical of the church's stance on abortion and many other still-sensitive issues among many people of Catholic origin there and around the world. But much of the IRA's funding came from Irish-American supporters in the US, who were often otherwise fairly conservative politically and socially as well. So the IRA's socialist message and anyone associated with the Republican movement who was speaking out in support of legalizing abortion was seen as an obstacle to the Republican movement, even if many people quietly agreed with the dissenters.

Many people have made relevant comparisons between the global movement in support of Palestinian self-determination and the global movement in support of Irish Republicanism. There are many more relevant comparisons to be made, and I'd venture to say that this is another of them. In both cases, with the various dissenters within the anti-Zionist movement and the Irish Republican movement, I really do sympathize with both the dissenters and the "united front." I understand that strategic unity is vital for any successful movement. But I also understand that honest debate, freedom of expression, and critical analysis of everything – very much including Jewish identity politics – is also vitally important. I hope that a unity of purpose can be maintained even with such substantive differences in our various understandings of reality and history. Moreover, I hope that Atzmon's honest efforts to disentangle the whole question of Jewishness will lead other people from other tribal backgrounds to do more of the same. And I hope that more people will read his book before they feel the need to call him an anti-Semite.

David Rovics (Repost)
- Homepage: http://songwritersnotebook.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/disavowing-disavowal-in-defense-of.html

Comments

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too bad

28.03.2012 17:40

That's pretty disappointing. Rovics used to be a very thoughtful person, but Atzmon's pulled the wool over his eyes.

disappointed


'used to be a very thoughtful person'

28.03.2012 18:34

How on earth could Gilad have pulled the wool over David Rovics eyes? It was DR who went out and paid $9.99 for The Wandering Who after he was invited to join the lynch party.

Maybe its because he IS a very thoughtful person who bought the book AND read it, that he is doing THIS.

ahem


well for one thing

28.03.2012 18:58

Rovics doesn't address Atzmon's connection with the Holocaust denial movement. Does he know but thought it wasn't worth commenting on, or did he not know?

disappointed


he talks a good game

28.03.2012 22:27

Yeah, Atzmon talks a good game at first, and a lot of people come away from their first impression thinking he's more or less okay, even if he's a little weird and Jew-obsessed. It's only the ones who dig a little deeper to the Holocaust denial stuff and the 'Jews aren't really Jews after all' stuff and the 'Jewishness is inherently bad' stuff who know just how objectionable Atzmon really is.

atzmon reader


the problem there

29.03.2012 03:38

But that presumes that people are going to take the time to actually do a factual investigation. Atzmon gives out the handy excuse: don't listen to my critics, they're all secret undercover zionists. Sometimes they're so undercover they don't even know they're zionists, but I the mighty mind of Atzmon know them better than they know themselves, so trust me, they're zionists. Even if they've been crusading anti-zionists for the the last thirty years, I the mighty mind of Atzmon declare them secret-secret zionists.

And some people actually fall for that. Why? Because Atzmon has played to their prejudices, and because it's easier than doing any actual digging.

yeah


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And yet

29.03.2012 07:44

If you read the article DR invited those who were calling for the shunning to back up their claims, and did not find their evidence compelling.

So he bought the book and read it, and found no anti-semitism and a fairly compelling analysis of Jewish Identity politics. As someone with 'Jewish lineage' who grew up amongst other Jewish people in New York, it seems likely that he would have an understanding of anti-semitism but here we have to believe that he is a fool who is easily duped. Just like that other gullible fool Richard Falk, also of Jewish lineage, and a mere professor emeritus of international law at Princeton University. Of course we can't expect people with such backgrounds to have the discernment of those who smear him on Indymedia.

Even though, so far what we're offered here is unsubstantiated smears and guilt by association.

My guess is that if he didn't find the 'evidence' submitted to him by named people compelling, he would be even less convinced by anonymous unsubstantiated smearing on an Indymedia site. I would also hazard a guess that he did his own research on the matter before he penned the article.

So far it doesn't even appear that the smearers have read and understood what DR has written.

ahem


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More fucking Jewish related stuff on IMC

29.03.2012 08:05

For fucks sake people enough with the non stop Jewish related posts here, it's ruining the site.

Bored of this shit


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" Jewish related posts "

29.03.2012 08:57

Without the "Jewish related posts " there would not be much of a news wire however considering who now runs this site that may not be a bad thing.

JimDog


yet still

29.03.2012 12:26

You can offer no indication that Rovics has dealt with or investigated Atzmon's recent fundraiser for Holocaust deniers in NY, nor the extraordinarily anti-Semitic, Jew-obsessed, racist-filled website "deliberation.info" that Atzmon contributes to. Nor do we have Rovics' reaction to the wide denunciation of Atzmon by essentially every leading anti-zionist there is, nor the fact that David Duke is his greatest fan.

Rovics is a pretty minor character, but still, I've heard him perform, and it's a shame to see him stepping in it like this.

pity


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Perhaps ?

29.03.2012 13:08

"extraordinarily anti-Semitic, Jew-obsessed, racist-filled website"

What you mean indymedia UK

JimDog


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who cares?

29.03.2012 13:48

FFS, there are lunatics and ridiculously opinionated people on BOTH sides of this debate.

Haven't we all got better things to do than read acres and acres of bile from both sides trying to decide who's right? It's a waste of energy.

Couldn't we all use that energy to struggle against, y'know, blatant anti-Semitism and blatant Zionism, instead of spending all our time arguing about people who might-or-might-not-be anti-Semitic or Zionist, or whatever, depending on how you interpret their words?

better things to do


just the facts

29.03.2012 19:19

Between 1938 and 1945, roughly one out of every three Jews on the planet was murdered by the Nazis.

But Gilad Atzmon now raises money for people who say that the Jews pretty much made it all up. And who take up, for their support of this claim, the lies of neo-Nazis like Ernst Zündel and David Duke.

Genuine anti-racists in the pro-Palestinian movement, including every major leader in the movement, say there's no room in the Palestinian solidarity movement for that sort of anti-Semitic bullshit.

Faux anti-racists instead natter on vaguely instead about definitions, and snark about how hung up the Jews seem to be about the fact that a third of them were wiped out not so very long ago, or argue that, given a choice between firmly established historical truth on one hand and firmly debunked neo-Nazi lies on the other hand, the proper progressive attitude should be 'who cares, what's so wrong with siding with neo-Nazis anyway'.

a little perspective here


dichotomy

29.03.2012 22:39

Atzmon's position is that if you're a Palestinian who embraces Palestinian identity and celebrates Palestinian culture, you're a personification of the noblest facets of humanity, but if you're a Jew who embraces Jewish identity and celebrates Jewish culture, then you're as bad as bad can be, your selfishness and deception know no bounds, and you deserve all the anti-Semitism you get, up to and including getting knifed. Not that Atzmon himself would knife you, he would just explain to you how you deserved to get knifed.

And if you find Atzmon's anti-Semitism to be too anti-Semitic for your tastes, and dare say so, then you're a McCarthyite though police netcop censor hasbarist who probably works for the same division of the Mossad that knocked down the World Trade Center and faked up all that evidence that the Holocaust happened.

tom y. dicho


and all you hear is radio ga-ga

30.03.2012 07:52

And the thread continues with yet more misrepresentations of Atzmon and more unsubstantiated smears.

"Nor do we have Rovics' reaction to the wide denunciation of Atzmon by essentially every leading anti-zionist there is"

Is not the entire article by Rovics a "reaction to the wide denunciation of Atzmon"?

"But Gilad Atzmon now raises money for people who say that the Jews pretty much made it all up"

And unsurprisingly not a single link to this 'event'.

"Genuine anti-racists in the pro-Palestinian movement, including every major leader in the movement, say there's no room in the Palestinian solidarity movement for that sort of anti-Semitic bullshit."

Hurrah for the leaders whoever they may be! Rovics addresses them:

"But as someone who has been studying history and politics for many decades, I have to say that Atzmon is only saying the things that so many people already know, and I, for one, am not going to pretend otherwise because shunning someone for stating the self-evident is more convenient for the movement in the short-term. If he is to be shunned for being unnecessarily divisive, or for having too dark a sense of humor, or for being overly confrontational or critical, fine, shun away. But if he is to be shunned because he is an anti-Semite, no, that's just nonsense."

" Atzmon gives out the handy excuse: don't listen to my critics, they're all secret undercover zionists."

And we aren't going to be told where he said this either. Maybe because he didn't say anything of the sort.

" but if you're a Jew who embraces Jewish identity and celebrates Jewish culture, then you're as bad as bad can be, your selfishness and deception know no bounds, and you deserve all the anti-Semitism you get, up to and including getting knifed. Not that Atzmon himself would knife you, he would just explain to you how you deserved to get knifed."

Again a misrepresentation with no sources to back it up.

Smearing by association, throwing mud in the hope it sticks, and sod all in the way of evidence.

Pretty poor show.

ahem


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Left-wing double standards

30.03.2012 10:26

Gizad said that Jewish idelogy is very similiar to Nazi ideology, and he even admitted that he was anti-Jewish. He often attacks Jewishness and always sees it as a bad thing, therefore he is inferring that being Jewish is bad. He often attacks Jewish identity yet some leftists don't see anything wrong with that though if someone here was attacking Palestinian identity, they would instantly be accused of being a bigot.

Gizad himself said that he is "anti-Jewish, not anti-Jew".

Well ok but if someone said "I am anti-Islam" you leftists would instantly accuse them of being a racist bigot.

So why is it that if someone is anti-Islam you accuse them of being "Islamophobic" bigots, yet if someone is anti-Jewish, you don't.

Just wondering.

Martin
mail e-mail: neptune23456@gmail.com


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Why? (the history)

30.03.2012 12:04

Martin, some of it is just "normal" antisemitism because being of the left doesn't make on immune to that. But some of it is historical conflict of interest for which you need some background in the history of the left and of "the Jewish Question" in the 19th Century and 20th Centuy (by which I mean "the Jewsih Question" as perceieved by the Jews). You'll have to study that history some to understand but I will attempt a short summary.

During the early half of the 19th Century (abnd continuing) the main belief among the Jews was that the liberal revolutions of Europe would solve their problems and they were heavily involved with thsoe (the '48, the unification of Italy, etc.). This carried over to the the dawn of the modern left. In other words, the Jews believed that "the revolution" would solve their problems and they were an important part of the "engine".

Beginning in about the 1880's some began to be disillusioned with that (although a minority). That's where modern "Zionism" came from (and no, it didn't begin with Herzl). By deserting the internationalist left movements to seek salvation in their own tribal ressurgence their energy was nio longer available as part of the engine. Like I said, this was a gradual process beginning as a minorty desertion of the left until by now, only a small minority remains supporting the left before their own ineterests.

THAT is the motivation of those parts of the left who are not antisemites. They are upset because they cannot "draft" the Jews to their cause. Remember, the main left idea is that the only conflict worth fighting is between ecponiomic classes and anything that interferes with people identifying by economic class is anathema.

The only dishonesty with that is rhetorical. Those people are actually opposed to all tribalism but limit their objections to the Jews who are the main PRACTICAL problem (the tribe that WAS in tha past an ally) because to admit out in the open that they are opposed to all tribes would interfere with recruitment among tribal peoples. SOME leftists who are speaking out against the Jews are not antisemites.

But some of us feel that it is up to them to prove that, to demonstrate that their objection is to all tribes cost them what that will among tribal peoples. Because otyherwise they are providing "cover" to the antisemites among them.

MDN


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Atzmon and Holocaust denial

30.03.2012 12:36

The Holocaust denial organization Gilad Atzmon raises funds for is called "Deir Yassin Remembered"; its UK exec director is the Holocaust denier Paul Eisen, and Atzmon did his latest fundraiser for them less than a month ago in Geneva NY.

Some people here are pretty desperate to cling to the narrative that poor Atzmon is being persecuted for his brave crusade. But the closer you look at that crusade, the clearer it becomes that it's just ordinary anti-Semitism dressed up as leftist. Poor Atzmon is an anti-Semite, something people first woke up to a decade ago but also something some people will remain in permanent denial about.

since you asked


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apples and pears

30.03.2012 13:12

since you asked:
"The Holocaust denial organization Gilad Atzmon raises funds for is called "Deir Yassin Remembered""

That'll be the organisation whose purpose statement reads:
"Deir Yassin Remembered was founded to educate the public about the 1948 massacre of more than 100 Palestinian civilians by Jewish terrorists at the village of Deir Yassin and to seek justice to the victims of the massacre. Our goal is to build a truth and reconciliation center at Deir Yassin."
 http://www.deiryassin.org/purpose.html

Absolutely nothing about holocaust denial in it. So it isn't actually a Holocaust denial organisation, its an organisation to remember Deir Yassin.

So the charge is false. Its just more guilt by association and circumstantial smearing.


ahem


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look again, o great wizard of all knowledge

30.03.2012 14:39

"Absolutely nothing about holocaust denial in it. So it isn't actually a Holocaust denial organisation, its an organisation to remember Deir Yassin."

Thanks for demonstrating again just how blind you have to be to whitewash Atzmon and his gang.

 http://www.deiryassin.org/byboard37.html

And it was of course Atzmon's delivery of Paul Eisen's Holocaust denial propaganda-text "The Holocaust Wars" that first stirred the controversy whether Atzmon was being too friendly to antisemites. That's Paul Eisen, the Holocaust denier who is the executive director of "Deir Yassin Remembered."

A smarter person would, at this time, stop a moment, and reflect a little about whether he's been backing the wrong horse since Atzmon first started hanging with Holocaust deniers.

Are you capable of that?

fact checker


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and your point is what caller?

30.03.2012 17:15

The fact that Daniel McGowan had an article published in Dissident Voice in 2009 doesn't change the purpose of Deir Yassin Remembered, which exists to remember Deir Yassin.

"And it was of course Atzmon's delivery of Paul Eisen's Holocaust denial propaganda-text "The Holocaust Wars" that first stirred the controversy whether Atzmon was being too friendly to antisemites."

As I understand it, Atzmon said it was an interesting article.Which it is. Is it not? And who exactly has the right to police who can be friends with whom?

I will certainly be the one who chooses with whom I associate, regardless of what the anonymous posters on here or the self-appointed 'leaders' have to say about it.

If you have evidence that Atzmon is a Holocaust denier, I'm sure he'd be very interested to see it. If all you can come up with is he played a benefit for Deir Yassin Remembered then I don't think you've proved that he is either an anti-semite, nor a Holocaust denier

ahem


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srsly?

30.03.2012 22:32

'The fact that Daniel McGowan had an article published in Dissident Voice in 2009 doesn't change the purpose of Deir Yassin Remembered, which exists to remember Deir Yassin.'

The fact that it's pro-Holocaust-denial propaganda posted on their very own DYR website indicates, to those whose brains are not made of granite and are not actively and desperately looking for excuses to ignore their anti-Semitism, that they have expanded their purview a bit, eh what?

And you - and Indymedia - can befriend all the Holocaust deniers you'd like. Don't let me stop you. It's looking like you've made a pretty good start on that already.

But when your reputation is - as it has already become - 'he's the guy who discredited Indymedia UK on behalf of his buddies in the Holocaust denial movement', don't come crying to us, mmmm-kay?

Face it - there are some followers of Atzmon who are, for reasons we can only speculate on, predisposed to consistently fail to consider whether or not Atzmon's rhetoric is anti-Semitic. They just can't do it. Their lips are sown to Atzmon's arse, they can't be bothered about anti-Semitism, and that's the whole story.

If Atzmon's next album was called 'Bring Back The Gas Chambers' and pictured Atzmon with a Hitler moustache and swastika, and one of the tracks was a jazz setting of 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' and another was called 'Christian Baby Blood in Our Matzoh Yum Yum Yum', Atzmon's cadre would argue that 'The great Atzmon tells us that it's merely a provocative Derridean deconstruction of the transgressive liminality of the collective parafrickitudinary Jewish identity, and we have no idea what he means except that he tells us it's not anti-Semitic and although we can't really judge for ourselves we'll take his word that it couldn't possibly be anti-Semitic, no no no no no, couldn't possibly be, and anyone who thinks otherwise is by definition an enemy of civilization. Besides, I was reading in that essay by Paul Eisen which Atzmon so happily distributed that there weren't actually any gas chambers at all because the Holocaust was largely a big Jewish lie ... how can it be anti-Semitic to call for the return of something that never existed, huh, huh, how about that, huh, answer me that one!'

guy


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In the court of the intolerant leftists.

31.03.2012 07:31


"But when your reputation is - as it has already become - 'he's the guy who discredited Indymedia UK on behalf of his buddies in the Holocaust denial movement', don't come crying to us, mmmm-kay?"

Well if I have already been found guilty in the court of the thought police, then so be it. The trial was a sham, being based as it was on lies, circumstantial evidence and smears. And of course this particular lefty secular sectarian court is incapable of examining itself, so I'm not expecting any justice to come out of it EVER.

"Face it - there are some followers of Atzmon who are, for reasons we can only speculate on, predisposed to consistently fail to consider whether or not Atzmon's rhetoric is anti-Semitic. They just can't do it. Their lips are sown to Atzmon's arse, they can't be bothered about anti-Semitism, and that's the whole story."

Yes yes - people obviously can't think for themselves - they get mesmerised by Atzmon and then lose their ability to navigate a discourse. Which is why this thread is full of straw man arguments, and smears with no evidence to back it up.

Anyone who had followed the left's treatment of Atzmon and who dares to say that they have read him and do not believe that he is an anti-semite, is likely to have done so in the full knowledge that they too would be attacked. And in the end they have decided to stand by what they believe to be right, rather than what they are told is right. They're unlikely to come crying to you for support.

David Rovics could have said nothing, but he chose to come out against the censorship and the smears, and today he shares a bill with Atzmon in Bristol. Rich Siegel is another who has voiced his support for the right of Atzmon to explore the issues around Jewish identity politics, and has also shared a bill with Atzmon.
 http://www.silviacattori.net/article2987.html

And I have no doubt that it pisses off the intolerant, authoritarian censorious self-appointed judges of the 'left' no end. The attempt to silence Atzmon with a letter from Ali Abuminah and pals, which proved nothing except the fact that they hadn't read the book, had the opposite effect to that intended.

So now we have to contend with bollocks like this:

"If Atzmon's next album was called 'Bring Back The Gas Chambers' and pictured Atzmon with a Hitler moustache and swastika, and one of the tracks was a jazz setting of 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' and another was called 'Christian Baby Blood in Our Matzoh Yum Yum Yum', Atzmon's cadre would argue that 'The great Atzmon tells us that it's merely a provocative Derridean deconstruction of the transgressive liminality of the collective parafrickitudinary Jewish identity, and we have no idea what he means except that he tells us it's not anti-Semitic and although we can't really judge for ourselves we'll take his word that it couldn't possibly be anti-Semitic, no no no no no, couldn't possibly be, and anyone who thinks otherwise is by definition an enemy of civilization"

Let me assure you that I'll be quite happy to condemn any album called 'Bring Back The Gas Chambers' - so if you can point me to it, I'll write my condemnation straight away.

In the meantime I will continue to live my life by the values I hold dear and I will not be joining the 'lynch mob of the left'. As you seem to think you know who I am why not email me and we can have a face to face discussion about it? I'm absolutely unswayed by anonymous smearers on this site.

ahem


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nice hat

31.03.2012 15:04

Oh dear, 'thought police' 'censorship' 'smears'

You left out 'Galileo' and 'inquisition' - isn't that usually what furious mad-hatter fringe characters sputter when they are reminded they are furious mad-hatter fringe characters?

The sadder part is that you seem so intent - and so successful - in taking Indymedia UK down with you.

hatless


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'This is going to hurt me more than it's going to hurt you'

31.03.2012 15:47

"The sadder part is that you seem so intent - and so successful - in taking Indymedia UK down with you."

It takes about two seconds to work out who is intent on taking Indymedia down. Its not me.

So it must be those who say they aren't censors, McCarthyites and thought police.

ahem


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leeetle tiny peeeeeices

31.03.2012 16:50

As you're plainly having one of your anti-cognitive episodes, in which you pretend for rhetorical face-saving purposes that you are unable to follow the simplest arguments, let me give it to you in little pieces.

Indymedia is a good thing in theory.

Indymedia is almost always a good thing in fact. Not perfect, and far less crucial than it used to be, but good.

An Indymedia run by an apologist for anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial, who can't see anything particularly bad about Paul Eisen's essay and can't see anything particularly bad about Atzmon distributing it, defending it, and calling it great, is not a good thing.

And an Indymedia with a well-earned long-deserved reputation for being run by someone who wouldn't recognize most forms of anti-Semitism if they tattooed a swastika between his eyebrows, and can routinely be found on the wrong side of any question regarding anti-Semitism, is a very, very bad thing.

And that's you.

chopped liver


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anonymous threats on the internets

31.03.2012 18:07

Strangely enough my inbox still hasn't received your email. I'm not even mildly interested in what some troll said on the internet.





ahem


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tout finis

31.03.2012 21:22

And that, good people, is why Indymedia UK has in recent years developed the reputation it has: nano-thin-skinned, histrionic, holier-than-thou, and more concerned about the editor's outsized ego than in combating actual, wossitcalled, racism.

Sorry, no private email for you to sweep under the rug. You fucked up in public, you take your lumps in public.

In the meantime, the Palestinian movement in the UK has taken a giant leap forward. They have realized that they don't have to coddle every Tom, Dick, and Adolf who wants to join. They've said a loud and clear 'no' to the Holocaust deniers. And, what a surprise, the Holocaust deniers didn't like that very much.

They took a look at how Gilad helped the movement, and how he harmed the movement, and decided he was a net loss.

To Indymedia UK, this is bad news, as it remain a bastion of the 'anti-Semitism? so what! Fuck the Jews if they don't like us' school of politics. To anyone who cares about actual progress, however, this is good news. The Palestinian movement are the future. Atzmon and his gaggle are the past, and they get past-er every day.

This is not about you, Mr Pouty-Pout-Face, and about oh how you have suffered in your long-suffering martyrdom and how bravely brave you tell us all you are because you've bravely been facing down the forces of anti-anti-Semitism, and how your life is, you tell us, one long Galileo moment standing fast against the forces of anti-anti-Semitism - all the while leaving Indymedia UK open for anti-Semitism.

This is about the Palestinian movement in the UK having weighed your cadre in the balance, having weighed Clark-Lowe and Eisen and Atzmon and the rest of that the-Jews-are-conspiring-against-you crew, and found you to be more trouble than you're worth.

If you want to keep playing with the mad-hatter clown car at 'deliberation.info' then please do. But step away from Indymedia before you hurt it even more than you have.

finis


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all religions are a heap of shit

02.04.2012 13:23

link to his Wikipedia page just for reference:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Atzmon

All religions are a heap of shit - interesting from an anthropological perspective, but obvious factually complete nonsense. And politically bad as they are all used for controlling people and suppressing critical thought.

That goes for Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Scientology, and all the others. The sooner humanity is free of religion the better.

He is quoted as saying: "I'm not going to say whether it is right or not to burn down a synagogue, I can see that it is a rational act." I would say that goes for all places of religious indoctrination, sorry, I mean worship.

atheist


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