Will PSC rise to the Challenge?
nahida -Exiled Palestinian (repost) | 20.01.2012 11:06 | Anti-racism | Palestine | World
As the AGM of Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC) approaches, the drive to control, fragment, agitate and to steer away PSC from its fundamental core issues is at all times high.
The crusade against PSC was ignited by Zionists from outside the movement beginning in September, following an article published on the Zionist hate-website Harry's Place (HP), and a letter from the Board of Deputies of British Jews” (BODBJ), accusing PSC and its branches of publishing anti-Semitic articles and linking to Holocaust denial websites, which arguably is a crude lie. However, the crusade was sustained, promoted and amplified by insiders with questionable loyalty, who roam freely within the Palestine solidarity movement.
Following those attacks and demands by BOD of British Jews, certain elements inside the solidarity movement picked up where Zionists stopped. Since then they have initiated a campaign of defamation against Palestinian activists (including myself) and numerous other supporters.
The smear and defamation campaign, ignited by BODBJ and its mouthpiece HP, is destined to divide and curtail the Palestine solidarity movement. It shrouds itself with a veneer of “ethicality” by invoking bogus concerns about “racism”, while the result is the expulsion of anti-racist activists including Palestinians, and the fragmentation of the Palestine solidarity movement at large, its campaigns being debased, its efficiency being crippled.
The paragraph below is only one piece of evidence that some alleged supporters of Palestine have indeed been engaging in gossip and spreading defamation, rumours and lies. It is but one example of the appalling consequences of such behaviour.
“In Liverpool a Palestinian activist, Nahida, who was once the mainstay of the group, changed almost overnight when she married a sinister Dutchman. Jewish conspiracies took over her life and it was with difficulty that the branch reclaimed its website, which had posted links to her anti-Semitic website (‘Spiders Web’).” Tony Greenstein.
In his latest defamation article, Mr. Greenstein extends his attacks to include yet another Palestinian with this defamatory claim:
"In Liverpool the Friends of Palestine website was taken over by a holocaust denier"
Or another example is his use of insulting expletives in lieu of factual arguments:
"At the AGM there is also a not very clever motion from Gill Kaffash .... It is a stupid motion from the stupid."
The aim of such vicious crusades, of course, is to discredit the research of those who dig deeper, and to control the boundaries of debate by shooting at those who dare to cross the line. As it appears, no one is "allowed" to investigate neither the deeper ideological motives nor the networks enabling Zionists crimes. No Palestinian is "allowed" to express more assertively the true voice of their people and their deeply anchored aspirations of FULL Liberation.
In this example,Tony Greenstein never met and never had contact with the people he is smearing. He uses lies and fabrications about their private life, to execute ad hominem attacks against them, and to propagate libellous accusations of anti Semitism and Holocaust denial against them. Obviously he has been fed with rumours, which as his blog shows, he never fails to transform in unreadable ramblings. .
I would have assumed that in all logic such attacks from external enemies and their internal contributors, would reinforce the cohesion of the movement, by a reflex of protection. What we see instead, is the disturbing reality of utter silence of other members, or even explicit approval of the attacks by the failure to reject them and sanctioning those who engage in such attacks. The occupiers and enemies of Palestine must be happy and indeed grateful, since the damage to the Palestinian solidarity movement in the UK is already substantial. Suffice to look at the nonsensical amendments and motions put forward, the waste of time and effort, and the harmful evictions and alienation of scores of members and potential members.
Such abhorrent behaviour is allowed to continue within the movement with the compliance of decent members who have swallowed the lies and let them pass unchallenged without demanding thorough investigations of such offence, and without firm rejection, chastisement or sanctions against guilty elements who took part in such smear campaign.
As they exclude more and more Palestinians through their defamatory campaign, as they rally themselves up and down the country to attend the AGM, and as they strengthen their position within by appointing themselves as political guides and censors of the solidarity movement; Mr. Greenstein and his clique expose their determination to take over PSC and to define its aims.
It is nothing but deliberate Controlled Opposition, when such individuals silence Palestinians and capture the levers of decision as to what is good for Palestinians, and what is not, and what aims to pursue, and what aims need to be smothered. Has the Palestinian voice not been smothered enough already, after a century of Zionism? Does it not appear evident that post-Zionism is preparing itself to do exactly the same? Why would a campaign who claims itself to be in solidarity with Palestinians, betray the noble aim of enabling Palestinians to freely express their Legitimate and Sovereign Rights?
Instead, Mr. Greenstein and co condescendingly declare that PSC members need "more internal education on Zionism":
He writes: "On Saturday there will be one motion on anti-Semitism and racism on the agenda from the National Executive. A motion from Naomi Wimborne-Idrissi and myself, which called for more internal education on Zionism, has been amended and accepted by the Executive."
It is disturbing when the likes of Mr. Greenstein, -who sticks the accusatory label “anti-Semite” (i.e. racist) on whomever disagrees with his views, and who introduces to PSC redundant motions to emphatically re-reject Judeophobic racism and to emphasize yet again on “anti-Semitism”, feels vindicated to surreptitiously collaborate with the incitement of racial and religious hatred against Muslims, when for example he spreads blatant lies against the Islamic Resistance Movements Hamas, and even about the Qur'an, thus joining the ranks of Islamophobes when he propagates such hateful unsubstantiated claim:
"the Quoran also have passages that are chauvinist and today, in the context of state policy, would undoubtedly be deemed racist"
Moreover, Mr. Greenstein, the avid "anti-racist", finds no shame in propagating Islamophobia by attacking the religion of Islam as whole and publicly participating in division, fomenting hatred and incitement against Muslims by arrogantly pretending that:
"Islam has introduced sectarianism into the Palestinian movement and has nothing to offer but further division"
Imagine for a moment someone writing: "Judaism has introduced sectarianism into the Palestinian movement and has nothing to offer but further division", one can only imagine the outbursts of wrath, fury, outrage and accusation that would follow, by Mr. Greenstein and co.
With the acceptance of such methods; whereby the defamers give themselves the right to DEFINE the meaning of words like racist, anti-Semite and Holocaust denier, then they allow themselves to ACCUSE, LABEL and DEFAME others with such titles, without any proof or evidence, and without allowing the accused to defend him/her self, they demand the excommunication of those accused and even aim to remove the right of appeal against such accusation, justice becomes a joke!
Regrettably, PSC has exhibited signs of moral fatigue by allowing some of its members to engage in such Zionist-style methods of operation by:
*Meddling in private affairs of members and using slander and defamation as a political tool (as seen from the writing of Tony Greenstein)
*The use of the label “Anti-Semitism” as a political tool. By branding those they disagree with, with charges of racism and anti-Semitism (Racism is unlawful according to British law). Completely dismissing the seriousness and the gravity of such allegation, they (carelessly or malevolently) have accused other activists of committing an unlawful offence.
Furthermore, PSC and some of its branches failed in the following:
-Evading to address the defamation against its members;
-Escaping the responsibility of launching an investigation to uncover the guilty elements;
-Failing to understand the real meaning of racism;
-Failing to identify the REAL racist;
-Failing to sanction/punish guilty members who engaged in such libellous acts;
-Failing to apologise to accused individuals for the harm and damages caused.
It has become increasingly apparent that some clique inside the solidarity movement, under the pretext of “fighting anti-Semitism”, are engaged in hijacking, deforming and sidetracking the solidarity movement from supporting the Palestinian people and their cause of Liberation, and instead pushing PSC into morphing into yet another ADL, "witch-hunting" and "book-burning" organization.
Tragically, the excessive and inappropriate use of the word "anti-Semite", by the likes of ADL (who have their very own definition of the word), and the same pathetic use that has been adopted by some elements inside the solidarity movement -who just like ADL, claim the exclusive right to define the meaning of words and the boundaries of debate, such excessive use by Zionists and anti-Zionist alike, and As I warned before, they have managed to make the word vacuous, meaningless and even a nuisance.
Those whose primary aim is to fight anti-Semitism are better advised to join more appropriate organizations who deal specifically with anti-Semitism, there are myriad of them around.
Those whose main concern is to educate people about the Holocaust, thus enabling Zionists to continue to use and abuse it, in what Dr Finkelstein correctly calls the “Holocaust industry”, should NOT do so on the back and expense of Palestinian and their solidarity movement.
Those interested in bickering and infighting -which only weakens the solidarity movement, would feel more at home working here or even here far and away from our Movement.
People with such divergent aims should stop imposing their agenda on others, and leave PSC to do what it was created for, SUPPORTING PALESTINIANS IN THEIR STRUGGLE FOR LIBERATION.
True Friends of Palestine should not allow themselves to be hoodwinked or sidetracked into adopting other groups' agendas or doing other organizations' work.
Henceforth,
I call upon PSC and all genuine supporters of Palestine to put an end to this fiasco;
I call upon PSC and all genuine supporters of Palestine to have the courage to stop slanderers and liars from hijacking the solidarity movement, dragging it down and turning it into a bickering stage of accusations and counter-accusations;
I call upon PSC and all genuine supporters of Palestine to have the dignity and cease to alienate/ expel exiled Palestinians by phoney, uncorroborated and unsolicited claims and defamatory allegations;
I call upon PSC and all genuine supporters of Palestine not to allow itself to be steered away from its original aims of supporting the oppressed Palestinians and to stay focused on the daily slaughter of Palestinians.
I call upon PSC and all genuine supporters of Palestine to remember that Palestinians have NOTHING to do with the Holocaust, yet they have been paying the price for it since before it actually even happened!
I call upon PSC and all genuine supporters of Palestine to remember that they are not an association of historians, and ought not to be distracted by the obsession about an historical event that ended almost seven decades ago, instead of focusing on the ongoing genocide against Palestinians and the destruction of their Biblical Land;
I call upon PSC and all genuine supporters of Palestine to rescue itself from being diverted into nonsensical, useless, fruitless, endless debates, which irremediably lead to unnecessary infighting, thus wasting and crippling the movement;
I call upon PSC and all genuine supporters of Palestine to remember that the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian population, and the annexation of their country, has been almost completed while we respond with deference to people whose prime interest is obviously not the restoration of Palestine, or the Rights of Palestinians.
I call upon PSC and all genuine supporters of Palestine not to become an arm of Michael Whine, morphing into a "Holocaust-deniers hunters" instead of trying to stop the ongoing and upcoming genocides of the Middle East;
I call upon PSC and all genuine supporters of Palestine not to allow itself to be misguided and hoodwinked even from comprehending and recognizing of the meaning and manifestation of racism and the real definition of an anti-Semite, Hasn't the anti-Semitic charge been abused and trivialized enough?
I call upon PSC and all genuine supporters of Palestine not to become deafened by big-mouthed detractors, or blinded by glittery definitions coiled by deception, so as it fails to identify the REAL RACISTS who are worthy to be rejected and fought against.
Finally, I call upon PSC and all genuine supporters of Palestine to take a firm action against malicious trouble-makers, and to expel those who engage in unsubstantiated defamation of other activists.
Such agitators whose exclusive organizations embrace Zionists as full members, those who come loaded with hidden agendas, neither represent Palestine nor Palestinians
Their agenda includes the preparation and facilitation of a prosperous and secure future for the planners, authors and perpetrators of our NAKBA.
They blather about road maps, about deleting the green-line while coercing the Palestinians to forget their inalienable rights to their Historic Palestine.
They aim to deceive Palestinians and the world to accept the terrorists, colonizers, war-criminals, thieves and murderers who occupied Palestine since 1948, they want to promote them as "civilised" "peaceful", humane", "Jewish", "peace-loving" "Israelis", who should have the same right to the Land of Palestine as Palestinians do!
It is not up to a Netanyahu, Schneerson, or Lieberman, and sure NOT for a Semoff, a Dropkin or a Greenstein to decide for us about the future of our Homeland; it's not for them to decide what is good for Palestine and what is not, who is allowed to stay and who is not, or who is to be summoned, charged, prosecuted or punished for their decades of genocide and war crimes and who is not.
True friends of Palestine appreciate that ultimately, only Palestinians are entitled to make such decisions, especially after decades of relentless slow genocide. Palestinians are entitled to use whatever appropriate methods of resistance, legal, intellectual, or otherwise to achieve their long-lost Liberty.
True friends of Palestine realize that it is the fundamental and intrinsic core of the Palestinian National Rights, to define, express and publish concepts such as the unhindered Right to Return, Restitution AND Compensation, Liberation of the occupied Homeland, unrestricted Sovereignty including over Immigration Policies, Prosecution of Criminals, etc. Those who smother these fundamental Rights, contribute to the finalization of the Zionist project, itself representing the total negation of all bases of Law, in particular pertaining to Crimes Against Humanity, Wars of Aggression, War Crimes, and ironically, the negation of the Post-WW2 Nuremberg Principles, especially the sixth principle, which were wisely crafted to precisely avoid such horrors to happen again.
My prime concern has always been the cause of Palestine and the Palestinians’ inalienable Human Right of Self-Determination in their own ancestral Land, which they inhabit and protect since thousands of years, continuously. The voice of Palestinians is barely heard in the West. Therefore, those whose aim is to muffle the voice, block the research, contain the freedom and veil the views of Palestinians cannot be truly friends of Palestine.
Real friends are those who want to keep the solidarity movement on the right track, focused on Palestine and the Liberation of Palestine.
Hereby, as a Palestinian exiled from my home for more than 44 years, I affirm my right and the right of my people to aspire to the Liberation of our Homeland and to pursue the intellectual means that will help to achieve that goal, moreover since this goal is the strict reassertion of Human Rights and International Law.
I affirm my right to continue my investigations into the role of global Jewish Zionist networks through their many facets, institutions and organizations supporting, sustaining and propagating the cause of the Zionist entity.
I affirm my right to continue investigating the supremacist ideology that animates the entire Israeli-settler society and to expose its consequences on Palestinians, and beyond.
I affirm my right to continue my activism, to share the results of my work and to connect with people who want to learn about Palestine, without being defamed, censored or chastised by self-appointed gurus.
I affirm my right to defend my reputation and the reputation of my fellow human beings who are wrongfully accused and defamed, and to stand up to those who cause harm to the cause of Palestine, those who use ad hominem attacks, defamation and slander as a political tool to muffle and excommunicate their opponents.
I affirm my right to continue to expose those elements who try to achieve deleterious political aims by controlling and crippling the Palestinian solidarity movement, through the use of debate framing, information filtering, and eviction of activists who step outside the narrow boundaries set by these elements to keep the opposition constricted and limited in its scope and efficiency.
Finally, I call upon the Solidarity Campaign NOT fall prey to such manipulation conducted by individuals with ulterior motives and compromised loyalty who appointed themselves to be in charge of the flow of information, to control the direction of the Palestinian solidarity and to push it towards the acceptance of “soft” yet final and permanent colonization of Palestine, thus to steer it away from its prime objective; the unconditional support of Palestinians and their quest for Full Liberation.
nahida -Exiled Palestinian (repost)
Homepage:
http://uprootedpalestinians.blogspot.com/2011/01/will-psc-rise-to-challenge.html
Comments
Hide the following 22 comments
to clarify
22.01.2012 01:38
qustion
re: clarification
22.01.2012 09:53
The article mentions holocaust a number of times'
1) Zionist groups accused the PSC of " publishing anti-Semitic articles and linking to Holocaust denial websites"
2) Greenstein claimed ""In Liverpool the Friends of Palestine website was taken over by a holocaust denier"
3) Greenstein is said to have " propagate(d) libellous accusations of anti Semitism and Holocaust denial" by doing so
4) Such libelllous accusations occur within a context "whereby the defamers give themselves the right to DEFINE the meaning of words like racist, anti-Semite and Holocaust denier, then they allow themselves to ACCUSE, LABEL and DEFAME others with such titles"
5) Nahida then says: "Those whose main concern is to educate people about the Holocaust, thus enabling Zionists to continue to use and abuse it, in what Dr Finkelstein correctly calls the “Holocaust industry”, should NOT do so on the back and expense of Palestinian and their solidarity movement."
6) She calls "upon PSC and all genuine supporters of Palestine to remember that Palestinians have NOTHING to do with the Holocaust, yet they have been paying the price for it since before it actually even happened!"
7) She further calls "upon PSC and all genuine supporters of Palestine not to become an arm of Michael Whine, morphing into a "Holocaust-deniers hunters" instead of trying to stop the ongoing and upcoming genocides of the Middle East;"
So your question appears to be a complete strawman - in that the article does not say "PSC must be free to include Holocaust deniers", it does however suggest that rather than hounding people as 'anti-semites' and 'Holocaust deniers' the campaign should "not to allow itself to be steered away from its original aims of supporting the oppressed Palestinians and to stay focused on the daily slaughter of Palestinians."
Who then is "saying PSC must be free to include Holocaust deniers?"
confused
the PSC boots a Holocaust denier
23.01.2012 01:38
People like him and his 'Holocaust "myth"' rhetoric do nothing but convince the world that the PSC is driven, not by a desire for justice, but by a hatred of Jews.
The PSC was right (if quite late) to recognize the problem, and it's good that they have decided to address it straight on.
see for yourself
Justice PSC stylee.
23.01.2012 06:43
Later in the meeting a motion was passed which means that future appeals will be put to a panel, hand selected by the Executive Committee. Thus, the next wave of the expelled will no longer be able to get even five minutes to state their case to their peers.
Let us hope that something more positive than creating a state of fear, whereby every single member of the PSC will now be forced to measure their critique of zionism lest it offends zionists, was achieved in that AGM.
It is hard to see how the Palestine Solidarity Campaign the UK was made stronger by the expulsion of a former national chair of the organisation.
Now the zionist are lining up to attack the next bunch of "anti-semites" who it is claimed were dubbed by Netanyahu to be the main enemies of Israel - The New York Times and Haartez.
As Ali Abinimah notes: "in the new era of Israeli hasbara, anyone who voices a hint of dissent or reports reality is now an “anti-Semite,” even writers at Haaretz."
A free Palestine looks to be a long way off.
confused
good for PSC
23.01.2012 13:25
The PSC has taken an anti-racist stance on the topic. This bothers some people.
anti-racist
anti-racist: The questions that are raised in your first sentence.
23.01.2012 15:44
Thats an easy thing to say. But can you substantiate any of it? How does the PSC figure anything out - the sudden appearance of this staement on the PSC website:
"Any expression of racism or intolerance, or attempts to deny or minimise the Holocaust have no place in our movement. Such sentiments are abhorrent in their own right and can only detract from the building of a strong movement in support of the fundamental rights of the Palestinian people. We welcome all those who share our aims to join PSC."
appears to have been in response to a zionist campaign in which Harry's Place was a key player. It surprised many because it isn't clear what consultation or discussion took place before it appeared, and who was involved in those discussions . So how exactly the PSC has figured anything out is totally unclear.
But of more interest are these questions:
1) What is meant by Holocaust denial?
2) Who exactly is denying the Holocaust happened?
3), How is it a racist issue? Which also means defining what you mean by racism.
If you care to clarify the questions I'm happy to move onto looking at the rest of the post.
confused
find out for yourself
23.01.2012 22:03
If you want to learn what Holocaust denial is, read up on the Irving trial. You'll learn how Holocaust denial grew from the neo-Nazi movement, how it adapted with time, how it's based on racist conspiracy theories no anti-racist should embrace, and why it's indeed a good thing that PSC took a strong anti-racist stance that didn't involve an endless navel-gaze.
not your library
slogan slogan slogan chant chant chant
23.01.2012 23:10
Smears with no substance from some anonymous poster on the interweb - how innovative is that?
confused
look it up
24.01.2012 03:41
Somehow brings to mind the idea of a flat-earther who won't discuss Keplerian orbits or Newtonian mechanics with a scientist until his opponent has produced a thousand-page treatise on what he means by "earth" and another on what he means by "flat."
Want to find out what the Holocaust is? Look it up. I don't define it personally; the event defines itself.
Want to find out what Holocaust denial is? Look it up. I don't define it personally; the movement defines itself.
Want me to change your nappies? Sorry, you're on your own with that one.
And again, congratulations to the PSC for seeing what 'confused' is apparently unable to.
An anonymous internet fringe character incensed that nobody is doing his lessons for him - how innovative is that?
still not your library
co-option - lookout for the formula
24.01.2012 16:24
As a boy my answer to the jewish people needing a safe place to live was yes, they do. If one is sensitive to fellow humans suffering, to critise people who are poor and percecuted is to be hypocritical (why was I so unaware of the Palestinians plight?). For me, for decades from being a young lad after my first encounter with the holocaust syndrome there was to be no discussion on its authenticity. Absolutely, it was set in stone so to speak. The jews had suffered in the war more than anyone, more than any peoples in history - period.
But, and here's the rub: The way the Palestinians have and are being treated by the israelis, with the holocaust cited as one of the reasons for the over the top repression and their claim to the land, I came to the conclusion alittle research was needed. After looking into what was regarded as historical fact, well, how can I say this, it's been exagerated. More than few points are pure fantasy and beyond. It turns out Alfred Hitchcocks film about the liberation of Dachau is mainly non-sense, no one was handed a towel and soap, no one was gassed there. The stories about jews turned into bars of soap or shrunken jew heads, all made up propaganda. I found this very disturbing and was shaken that such nonsense existed in the minds of the victors over fascism. Even the 4 million figure from Aushwitz was reduced, yes reduced to 1 million in 1989. How could you be 3 million out? What was i to think? Who would make this up? Obviously the genuine victims didn't, it was certainly real for them. There are many more examples, in fact too many to include here. I was young and taken in by people who should know better. Many jewish people have and are being taken in, taken in to a perverse, twisted mind set that has fundemently taken over the jewish religion and turned it into a political tool. To be blunt, this whole 'holocaust' deceipt has fucked with my head and caused much psycological anguish. It goes without saying my torment is nothing in comparison to the real suffering the Palestinians have endured for decades, mainly isolated, ignored, insulted and abused by the jewish state and others. After years of researching said topic I found, dare i say, succour, in Gilad Atzmons book 'the Wandering Who'.
Now to those who doubt my words, listen up - i am no fascist, holocaust denier, nazi or anti-semite. The Palestinians are semites. If you are jewish reading this, read the book with as much of an open mind as you can. You can always reject it afterwards.
@nahida - I hope i haven't expressed myself in a way that is detrimental to the Palestinian people. Wishing you a safe return to your homeland. Thankyou
fool me once, shame on you....
@fool
24.01.2012 18:56
This stuff is Holocaust denial 101. What's it doing on Indymedia?
The six million figure didn't come from 'the Jews' or from 'the zionists' but from the Nazis themselves at Nuremberg.
That plaque at Auschwitz didn't come from 'the Jews' or 'the zionists' but the Soviets, who tried to make it look like more non-Jews than Jews had been killed at Auschwitz. None of the international independent demographic studies of the scope of the Holocaust ever took that plaque at face value. Not one. Western scholars were calling the figure 'ridiculous' from the beginning, and it never figured into any historical demographic calculation of the number of dead.
But the Holocaust deniers hope you don't know that. That's why they like to use the plaque as one of their opening arguments. And they've apparently got you right where they want you: not bothering to double-check their lies.
And if I had a 50p for every time I've heard 'semites can't be anti-semites' I could buy Dubai.
look it up
polarisation, best suited to the playgroud see-saw
25.01.2012 16:01
'' What's it doing on indymedia?''
The clue is in your question - Independent. We do not blindly follow the states 'official' version of history. Maybe you do?
''The six million figure didn't come from the jews/zionists.''
Please point out where I said it did, I didn't even mention that. You should take your 6 million underestimation to the influential punk band Crass (my favourate btw) who in ''Bloody Revolutions'' sing about 10 million.
The plaque at Aucshwitz was errected by our WW2 allies, remember, the peoples who lost more lives than anyone and without whose sacrifice we would not have defeated the fascists.
Is what you're saying the West was quite happy to use ''commie propaganda'' the 4 million figure, in schools, books, films, radio broadcasts, documentories for decades etc fully aware it was a fiction? Why?
Using your 'international, independant, demographic study' please inform me and others how many jews died in the holocaust. As Prof. Norman Finklestein quotes his mother, '' with all these survivors, who did hitler actually kill in the holocaust?'' (ref. the Holocaust Industry)
My other points stand, all admitted as being propaganda.
So, you'd consider '' buying'' Dubai with your 50p', hmm are you sure you're on the right site.
Anyway, as you can tell from my writing I'm not a university educated person. I just wanted my opinion to be heard, and to share what i'd found out. I support the Naturai Karta jews with stance on israel.They are brave courageous. By the way the majority of israelis are from Russia, America and Europe, so how can they be semites?
I intend no bad vibe to you, take care.
fool me once, shame on you......
@fool
25.01.2012 17:32
You've been played for a fool, fool.
It's not 'zionist' or 'Jewish' history to say that Neil Armstrong landed on the moon. It's not 'zionist' or 'Jewish' history to say that the Spanish Armada was defeated in 1588. And it's not 'zionist' or 'Jewish' history to say that the Nazis killed six million Jews, some by shooting, some by gassing, some by working them to death in slave labor camps.
But there are Jew-haters out there - people like Gilad Atzmon specifically - who hope that you hate the zionists enough that you'll start spreading anti-semitic lies about them, like 'they exaggerated the Holocaust' or 'they're not really Jews but Khazars.'
You may not be /intending/ to spread anti-semitic lies, but that's what you're doing. Because, as I've said, it's not the Jews or the zionists who are fooling you, but rather the guys who think the Nazis weren't so bad after all. They used to just keep this on the far right. But now they are trying to convince the far left as well. The PSC, to their credit, saw through this. They realized that these aren't 'brave anti-zionist truths' but neo-Nazi anti-Jewish lies. Maybe one day you will realise this too.
look it up
Indignation and strawmen
25.01.2012 19:53
I missed the part about who is being oppressed by the claim that the world is round, and who would be disciminated against if someone said "I've studied it and actually its oval"?
So it isn't directly comparable, is it?
"That is, are you as proudly independent of all 'state' knowledge, or only the parts with antisemitic implications?"
Roughly translated as "Certain aspects of history cannot be examined, because only people who hated jews would want to study them". As an approach it is pretty useless. However, if a list could be provided it would be a pretty interesting list I think.
"But there are Jew-haters out there - people like Gilad Atzmon specifically - who hope that you hate the zionists enough that you'll start spreading anti-semitic lies about them, like 'they exaggerated the Holocaust' or 'they're not really Jews but Khazars.' "
Without a definition of the terms what do they mean.? Gilad is clear that he has major problems with Jewish ideology. Here's an 11th grader giving his take on Jewish ideology:
“I once belonged to a wonderful religion. I belonged to a religion that allows those of us who believe in it to feel that we are the greatest people in the world—and feel sorry for ourselves at the same time,”
He then goes on to describe how, as a Jew he felt pressured into uncritical support of Israel. And when he declined to offer that support, he found his relations with the community changed:
"It was different not being the ideal nice Jewish boy. The difference was subtle, yet by no means unaffecting. Whenever it came to the attention of any of our more religious family friends that I did not share their beliefs, I was met with either a disapproving stare and a quick change of the subject or an alarmed cry of, “What? Doesn’t Israel matter to you?” Relatives talked down to me more afterward, but eventually I stopped noticing the way adults around me perceived me. It was worth it to no longer feel as though I were just another apathetic part of the machine."
But those who froth indignantly, and insist we focus on how bad things are (or will be) for the Jews, are intent on ignoring how bad things are the Palestinians.
Tony Greenstein calls anti-semitism today a "marginal prejudice" and yet he has pushed the PSC into an uncomfortable situation and taken the focus right off what was happening in Palestine. The PSC has ensured it will always be referred to as the home of holocaust deniers, and it cetainly showed us that as an organisation it is really deficient when it comes to the issue of ethics and justice.
Francis was given 5 minutes to defend himself against a charge.
Then Hugh Lanning gave a speech in which he substituted the charge. And then 165 people voted to expel Francis. How did the Palestinians benefit from any of this?
What did achieve?
And what guideline does that post you want taken down breach?
confused
@ fool
26.01.2012 01:08
'We'? Are you claiming to be an Indymedia editor? Because, hey, I knew things got pretty sticky on Jew issues around the time of the schism, but are we really at a point now where there's an Indymedia editor who thinks half the Jews killed in the Holocaust weren't killed in the Holocaust?
look it up
And another strawman
26.01.2012 07:12
A: "The clue is in your question - Independent. We do not blindly follow the states 'official' version of history. Maybe you do?"
Q: 'We'? Are you claiming to be an Indymedia editor?
Does Indymedia even have editors? Does the poster say they are an editor?
"Because, hey, I knew things got pretty sticky on Jew issues around the time of the schism, but are we really at a point now where there's an Indymedia editor who thinks half the Jews killed in the Holocaust weren't killed in the Holocaust?"
Aah so its an attack on Indymedia. And the term "Jew issues", is that offensive or not? What does it mean?
I don't see any claim that "half the Jews killed in the Holocaust weren't killed in the Holocaust?" - although the post does say that "the 4 million figure from Aushwitz was reduced", Dachau didn't have gas chambers, claims about Jews being turned into soap proved untrue on further examination and there were no shrunken heads. Yet at one point all of these were 'facts about the Holocaust' which were part of this idea that Jews suffered more than the other millions who died in WW2 and more than the millions who have died in wars since. An idea in itself which seems to smack of racism, in that it sees non-Jewish deaths as less horrific.
Nor do you appear to have answered this question:
"And what guideline does that post you want taken down breach?"
confused
re: am I a mod
26.01.2012 13:47
Hey listen man, you need to calm down. Nobody here is out to get you. Slow down big fella and have a re-read with a non partisan friend, and listen to them. I get my posts checked to make sure I’m not coming over like a nut. You’ve been building many a strawman here and if you’re not careful, wont have any golden straws left to grasp at on your way to total self delusion.
Your last comment insinuating I might be an indy editor (mod) is one desperate grasp too far. Have some respect as you’ve been shown respect. People have read your posts and replied to them without insult or nastiness, you should do likewise.
Hear me, I’m a nobody trying to understand the world and all it’s horrors, a bit like yourself – but I’ve learned the people running the show are a bit sneaky and all is not as it seems. Having a bun fight on indy is a release for us, but by no means does it, as others have said, reduce the suffering of the Palestinians. I was just sharing my thoughts and not intentionally inciting, provoking, insulting anybody.
Listen my friend you need a break. This big ‘anti-racist’ badge you wear has become an albatross, where all the good you do is squashed under your persecution complex, looking for anti-Semitism everywhere, except where it really exists – iSRAEL!
The example from @confused may resonate with you. A rejection from the tribe can result in an over compensation to prove yourself worthy. I’ve included an example similar to @confused to show the real consequences of such an action. This poor lad got his wake up call, hopefully not too late.
It’s called: Young American jewish man attacked by israeli police - utube
Sincerely, look after yourself, love fool me once
fool me once, shame on you......
@ fool
26.01.2012 14:21
Holocaust denial is, by its very nature, antisemitic hate speech. Do the research and you'll see that this all started out on the neo-Nazi front, and there's been only one change. On the far right, they say 'the Jews pulled off a massive criminal fraud by faking most of the Holocaust'. On the far left, it's 'the zionists pulled off a massive criminal fraud by faking most of the Holocaust.' This is one of those cases where the edges have wrapped around to meet.
Is there any other ethnicity that, when complaining of what's demonstrably hate speech, would be condescendingly be told to chill out?
If I wrote "I think that blacks are all on the dole, but don't call me a racist," would that post stay up? Of course not. But "I think the Jews, in an international conspiracy, exaggerated their Holocaust dead by millions upon millions - but don't call me an antisemite" - that stays up. Anyone who's a genuine anti-racist, rather than a lip-service anti-racist, should be deeply troubled by that.
And "I think that blacks are all on the dole, but because I haven't insulted you personally this is in no way an offensive post" - well, what fool would accept that? But "I think the Jews have pulled off what amounts to the biggest single criminal conspiracy in history by faking millions upon millions of deaths, but because I haven't said anything about you personally this can't be considered an offensive post" ... who would buy that?
Am I supposed to pretend I don't notice the double standard? "There there it's all right, it's only antisemitism, nothing to get worked up about"?
look it up
I've become tangled up in tears
26.01.2012 15:50
Yet when invited to explain what it is, and how it is racist you declined. You said it was up to us to decide for ourselves. Remember?
"Do the research and you'll see that this all started out on the neo-Nazi front, and there's been only one change. On the far right, they say 'the Jews pulled off a massive criminal fraud by faking most of the Holocaust'. On the far left, it's 'the zionists pulled off a massive criminal fraud by faking most of the Holocaust.' This is one of those cases where the edges have wrapped around to meet."
We can assume that one of the main aims of examining the 'Holocaust' for the neo-Nazi front was an attempt to make their own cause more respectable and to rehabilitate the memory of Hitler. We can also assume that they are prone to genuine anti-semitism (although the BNP does boast of Jewish members, and the EDL did join the zionists in pig-pens outside the Israeli embassy and Ahava).
But there is little evidence that the far-left voices have any desire to rehabilitate Hitler. In fact they quite often seem to suggest that Israel is as bad, or worse than nazi-Germany, an indication that they see Hitler and nazism as a bad thing. So, it seems their motivation is different. And I would suggest it goes more like this:
Jewish identity is wrapped up with victimhood. That victimhood is created by the promotion of a constant fear of anti-semitism (which in the West no longer exists in the same way it did in Europe in the 30s) and the 'Holocaust narrative', by which they often mean the way in which the narratibe is presented so as to re-inforce an idea that Jews have suffered more than anyone else.Whilst Jews are traumatised by this victimhood, they are also somehow involved in the oppression of the Palestinians, either by supporting it ideologically, or by actually physically doing it, in the IDF in Israel.
Having rejected the idea that all non-Jews are waiting to kill the Jews again given the opportunity (a matter on which they are certainly correct) it is a logical step to then investigate the whole phenomena of the 'Holocaust' and once they try to do that, all hell breaks loose.
A certain sax player suggests the outrage is indicative of how the 'Holocaust narrative' has become akin to the new religion, and that questioning it is thus seen as heresy.
Thus it is possible to get to the point of questioning the narrative without any racism whatsoever. The critique is of ideology and the way in which Jewish identity is created - again Jesse explained his own experience very well. However, it is also the case that the only people really prepared to discuss the issue with the heretics are the right, and rather than deal with the reason that young Jews are going down this road and addressing it, the reaction is ostracism which isn't really helping anyone.
However, all you've really managed to show is that both Nazis and 'the Far Left' have examined the same topic. You still haven't shown that the post you think should be auto-removed breached guidleines or is anti-semitic hate speech.
" On the far left, it's 'the zionists pulled off a massive criminal fraud by faking most of the Holocaust.' "
I'm not going to even attempt to find someone of the far left who says that. Unless you provide the evidence of it, I'm going to assume that it is your interpretation and an inaccurate one at that. But it certainly isn't what is said in the comment you want hidden, so again I invite you to explain what guideline is breached.
"Is there any other ethnicity that, when complaining of what's demonstrably hate speech, would be condescendingly be told to chill out?"
Demonstrate the demonstrable for us please!
confused
Odd
26.01.2012 21:55
I don't recall that your ethnicity was discussed.
Confused
let's try this then...
27.01.2012 09:44
Oh deary me, I tried, I really did, to pass some love vibes your way, even in the face of hostility. But no it wasn't enough, you wanted something more – submission to your prescribed persecution world view. We're supposed to be having a civil discussion and you're accusing people of hate speech. You're coming across like a bully, fortunately my confidence was forged in the university of life and you wont stop me from thinking and questioning things when I see injustice. It's like you want me to say or worse, admit something that will purposely upset people to prove you were right all along.
Ok, so here's a gift (mods bare with me – it's in context with his previous posts)
Ready? Let's begin... ''As I have enough heart not Deny you another Persecuted sleepless night, attired in your Blue and White tasselled Tallit pjimmy jams, with matching tin foil Kippah, cuddled up to your Bagel shaped pillow, laid upon a Nazi Blond Haired Stuffed Mattress, the room aromatically scented with Gefilte Fish scented joss sticks, window opened slightly so as not to miss any Anti-Semitic insults released like a Nazi nocturnal emission from passing neighbours....'' ok happy now? No? You want more?..... ''You dream of Antisemite, you know, like a precious stone, waiting to be Picked From A Pocket Or Two and taken back to the Zio cave to show the Elders what a good Jewish Boy you've been....'' there that must be enough, surely?
So now that we've (you and me, not the mods) got your bedtime routine organised let's get back to the discussion – but wait what's this, you wrote:
''If I wrote "I think that blacks are all on the dole, but don't call me a racist," would that post stay up? Of course not. But "I think the Jews, in an international conspiracy, exaggerated their Holocaust dead by millions upon millions - but don't call me an antisemite" - that stays up.
Are you seriously comparing these two statements? The first statement is blatant racism, the second is up for further investigation due to the previous revelations in above posts. But seen as though you brought up the jew/black racism analogy then it's surely pertinent to bring up slaveship owner book of records of 400 years, Golda Meir arms deals to Idi Amin, israels cheap arms deals to Ethiopia 1985 when people were focused on singing along with bob and the Ethiopian famine (Times monday Jan 7th 1985 front page) Gold, silver, diamond mines in South Africa etc.
''On the far left, it's 'the zionists pulled off a massive criminal fraud by faking most of the Holocaust.''
Are you suggesting zionists are unlikely to commit massive international criminal fraud? Two words – Bernie Madoff. According to interstellar, international, independent research, he's toast, busy doing bird (for the Atzmon aficionados) – unless you wish to Deny that, but that would make you a Berniecaust Denier. How's that, and all the time you thought you were the undisputed keyboard champ of all judaic and anti-judaic knowledge. Hey c'est la vie!
"And what guideline does that post you want taken down breach?"
@ confused has been asking you this question and others, why don't you show some respect and answer them. You're making huge assumptions about the posters and mods here – Like posters are saying, let's see if we can move forward and focus, out of the dogma and onto the catastrophe, a 70year genocide perpetrated by the jewish state with british colusion.
fool me once, shame on you.....
And again
27.01.2012 13:34
Saying 'Half the Jews of the Holocaust faked it, but have a nice day' is not 'passing love vibes'. Sorry if you don't like that simple fact, but it's true.
And I agree, if you check out Roy Bard (freethepeeps) new venture, a site called "deLiberation", you'll see that he has no problem appearing side by side with open and self-proclaimed Holocaust deniers. And that site is even more Jew-obsessed than this one.
look it up