It's dreadful that 'gangsters' are trying to depose that nice Gaddaffi chappie. Long may he reign! And when the sad end comes, he has sons to take over. Long live the hereditary dictatorship!

Actually Mr Fash, who said there had to be good guys leading either side. That dualistic ontology is just on telly you fucktard. You will see there are several factions/sides vying for power with NATO attempting to pull strings. The yanks and the UK are not averse to opportunistically arming more than one faction.

Apologies for the dualistic ontology.

So you're saying that we should let Gaddaffi stay there because the other chaps might be worse? That's a recipe for leaving every tyrant in history in place.

'we' should get the fuck out of libya full stop. the brits have admitted that they have planned this whole operation. the rebels are fighting a dirty war in the interests of western imperialism. get out of your racist colonial attitude. the world doesn't need the intervention of the west. all you idiots on the left who support the rebels are supporting british imperialism, plain and simple.

They are a far off people in a land we know little of. Why should we care that they are ruled by a paranoid megalmaniac? Just ignore him. He's not doing us any harm.

fash, you stupid prick. the rebels offensive was planned in the west. it is the work of mi6 and the british army. this is admitted by the western press. libya under gaddafi had the highest standard of living. what you have brought to libya now is death and destruction. even the western journalists in the rixos hotel admit that life was safe for them until the rebels arrived. millions are behind gaddafi, only NATO is behind the rebels. you're the same kind of dirty scum who would have supported britain in the colonies. fuck off.

Yes, the standard of living was high under Gaddaffi. With that amount of oil, it should have been. Still doesn't stop him being a psychopath.

Millions are behind Gaddaffi - yeah, millions of dollars in Swiss bank accounts.

Odd how those who demand freedom defend tyrants.

"Odd how those who demand freedom defend tyrants"

Yeah, when said tyrants have names like suharto, pinnochet, batista, Abdullah bin Abdul-Aziz Al Saud, franco, Reza Muhammed Shah Pahlawi etc, they sure do.

delusion and self deception
23.08.2011 21:08
Yes, the standard of living was high under Gaddaffi. With that amount of oil, it should have been. Still doesn't stop him being a psychopath.
Millions are behind Gaddaffi - yeah, millions of dollars in Swiss bank accounts.
Odd how those who demand freedom defend tyrants.
fash


fash,
Why bother waste people's time if you don't know what you're talking about? I've done my research. Where's yours? Point me to evidence of his brutal rule and how terrible life was for most people.

Or are you just a liar? Please enlighten me.

Indeed, the British Left are infected with racism.

"fash, you stupid prick. the rebels offensive was planned in the west. it is the work of mi6 and the british army. this is admitted by the western press. libya under gaddafi had the highest standard of living. what you have brought to libya now is death and destruction. even the western journalists in the rixos hotel admit that life was safe for them until the rebels arrived. millions are behind gaddafi, only NATO is behind the rebels. you're the same kind of dirty scum who would have supported britain in the colonies. fuck off."

The situation is certianly complex but not in any way impossible to understand.

What is happening in Libya is a concoction of variant political interests converging in an area of fuel resources. The rebels are a faction that the US, the UK and the EU member states have a vested interest in supporting. They are certainly going to feign support for the rebels because the rebels have the capacity to overthrow the regime in that country. It shouldn't come as any surprise at all that the British government would take the credit for this revolt given its capacity to effect change.

What will be of far more importance in the coming months will be how the rebel military force morphs into a political force that Britain and EU states can work alongside. In the first weeks of the revolt, substantial anti-western sentiment existed within the ranks of the rebels as they saw Khaddafi as a western client operating against the political and cultural interests of the Libyan people. In Libya proper, those very same rebels have seen NATO as a military force that was usable in the fight against Khaddafi. How that 'relationship' pans out over the longer term will depend on which faction within rebel ranks emerges as the strongest contender for power. This is the point the US/UK/ EU have been waiting for. From the very beginning, the US/UK/EU have been operating to weed out anti-western elements within the rebel ranks but have paid little attention to the consequences of that.

What has been of persistent interest to those on the periphery of this revolt, has been the dynamics of the economic attitude of all of the factions within the rebels. There has certainly been an attempt to use Libya's oil reserves as capital in attracting the military support of EU member states but this has been abbreviated politically with natural suspicion that the EU and NATO will exploit the rebel 'advances' to consolidate western national economic interests around Libya's oil reserves in order to prop up their own economies. It is certainly the case that the US, UK and EU see international oil prices as the first barrier to growth and control over Libya's oil reserves constitutes a hook on the market's prices.

Control over even 2% of international oil production commercially is enough to have an effect on the global price structure of oil. But unfortunately, it isn't enough to overcome other economic areas of stagnation so the US/UK/EU triptych of interests are certainly going to have to push harder on Libya in the longer term in order to overcome these pre-existing handicaps. Add to that the fact that we now learn that Khaddafi has successfully removed almost 6 tons of gold from Libya to a safe house abroad right under the noses of both the rebels and NATO, at a stroke successfully rendering its entire asset structure tied up in UK banks worthless!!!

This is the glass ceiling that will exhaust Libyan patience with their 'revolutionary comrades!

What we have yet to see in this whole sorry saga, is the guile and wiliness of the Libyan rebels. Now that they have what they want, they are in a position to start making demands based on the actuality of the international environment they have now emerged into. In this regard, the US/UK/EU are unable to make good on their promises of protecting Libya from outside interference in its post revolutionary phases.

This is to say nothing of the fact that the reaction of international markets to this 'co-opting' of Libya's natural resources in terms of global oil prices has been very substantially much weaker than anticipated. The price of oil has dropped very moderately indeed and in the UK this has failed to materialise in any meaningful way into a reduction of fuel prices at the pumps. It is only a matter of time before international markets begin to panic as they realise that the UK and US are unable to overcome their depressed economies even by seizing of foreign energy resources. When that panic sets in, international market traders globally will begin to dump shares in British trades and this will setoff another round of herd selling.

This British coalition government fundamentally does not understand the reality of the situation they are facing. They have convinced themselves that the way out of this disaster is to simply rotate around a hotch-potch of previous political policy set-pieces it has enacted in the past during other crisis.

To date the coalition have enacted an attempted flushing out of household dependents into the domestic housing and job markets in an attempt to re-invigorate these markets, it has attempted to reduce capital spending on welfare and emergency services provision, it has even attempted to reduce military spending in an attempt to reduce its international obligations, none of this has had any effect whatsoever on any area of its domestic economy. Worst of all, the traditional markers of economic progress and growth are still reporting false positives due to decades of 'accountancy reporting revisions'. We do not have a system that is competently able to indicate cogent data on the economic system we are using.

These are the fundamentals of the problems we are facing and there is no coherent political will to attach any realistic fix.

And the worst part about this, is that the British governments opponents are in a state of utter and futile petulant dissarry! This is exactly the moment we anarchist's should be using to form our own answers.

 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14642566

why are people feeding this 'fash' troll?

The fellow doesn't share our somewhat unusual world view, so let's ignore him and call him a troll. Much easier than actually trying to debate issues.

and in any case there is nothing you have trolled that is worthy of debate.

You clearly believe that it is the 'white mans burden' to 'help' Libya, when the reality is that the intervention is about oil and getting a NATO friendly government instated.

Last year Qadaffi was getting weapons from the UK and the year before that Libya was at DSEi. The UK had its own pavilion at Libya's arms fair.

You twist and manipulate what is written to push the agenda that if we don't support NATOs war then we are supporting Qadaffi.- which most people who use this site don't* And the demonisation makes no sense when the uk helped arm his regime as recently as 2010.

NATO went in to 'help' an armed rebellion in Libya and yet has sat on its hand when unarmed demonstrators are tortured and killed in Bahrain. So any talk about caring for ordinary people in despotic regimes is pure bullshit, especially when coming from politicians who don't even give a shit for ordinary people in this country.

(*see the mission statement and editorial guidelines for more)

if you don't misquote me.

Gaddafi was a psychopathic tyrant. What advances did Libya see in his time that any oil rich country could not have provided?

And just because I think the Libyans would be well rid of him does not mean that I endorse every other tyrant on the planet, nor does it mean that I endorse the means that were used.

Mind you, I always reach for my tin foil helmet when I read people talkng about the Rothschild banks.

It probably is a "revolution" controlled by the USA for imperialist reasons, but all the same I'm always glad to see rulers get their comeuppance. Now if only it would happen to Cameron, Clegg and Obama and whoever they install in Gaddaffi's place too...

'trillionaire gansterism of the rothschild empire' Point proved. You do really sound like something out of Pravda.

'rejection of militarism and excessive defence spending ' Tell that to the people of Chad.

"Terming it "technical and humanitarian assistance," the Libyan leader dispatched a sizable military force into Chad last week, which all but ended the civil war. The Libyan invasion force included more than 4,000 infantry, backed by 50 Soviet-supplied T-54 and T-55 tanks, along with 122-mm rocket launchers, 81-mm mortars and even U.S.-built Chinook helicopters."

As I've said, fash is clearly ignorant and likes to push his ignorance in other people's faces as if it were knowledge.

As usual, when you ask one of these ignorant people what has Gaddafi done to his people to make them want to die trying to get rid of him, they do dumb on Libya and start talking about Gaddafi's foreign policy. But even then they have to be one sided and back the Westerm version of events.

Could fash or one of his 'NATO is a humanitarian charity' believers come up with reliable evidence about Gaddfi's brutality towards his people? If you can't why don't you just keep your lying, ignorant mouth closed.


You don't have to do much research to find the true story behind Gaddafi and Chad,  http://experts.blogs.lincoln.ac.uk/2011/04/27/the-media-and-the-usuk-attempts-to-topple-gaddafi/

'Then in 1982, away from the glare of the media, Hissène Habré, with the backing of the CIA and French troops, overthrew the Chadian government of Goukouni Wedeye. Human Rights Watch records: ‘Under President Reagan, the United States gave covert CIA paramilitary support to help install Habré in order, according to secretary of state Alexander Haig, to “bloody Gaddafi’s nose”.’ Bob Woodward, in his semi-official history of the CIA, reveals that the Chad covert operation was the first undertaken by the new CIA chief William Casey and that throughout the decade Libya ranked almost as high as the Soviet Union as the ‘bête noir’ of the administration.

US official records indicate that funding for the Chad-based secret war against Libya also came from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Morocco, Israel and Iraq. The Saudis, for instance, donated $7m to an opposition group, the National Front for the Salvation of Libya (also backed by French intelligence and the CIA). But a plan to assassinate Gaddafi and take over the government on 8 May 1984 was crushed. In the following year, the US asked Egypt to invade Libya and overthrow Gaddafi but President Mubarak refused. By the end of 1985, the Washington Post had exposed the plan after congressional leaders opposing it wrote in protest to President Reagan.'

Anyone who rules for more than forty years, and who obviously has his sons lined up to take over from him, is a dictator. You might say he's been a good little dictator, and done lots of wonderful things for his country, but he's still a dictator,and the only way Libya is going to prised from his grasp is when he is dead.

Now, you might admire people like that, but I don't.

Gaddafi and his people
24.08.2011 20:19
Anyone who rules for more than forty years, and who obviously has his sons lined up to take over from him, is a dictator. You might say he's been a good little dictator, and done lots of wonderful things for his country, but he's still a dictator,and the only way Libya is going to prised from his grasp is when he is dead.
Now, you might admire people like that, but I don't.
fash

No, fash, you don't want to see the rule of a 'dictator' who has improved the living standards of his people over 40 years. You prefer imperialism.

Sorry for the big words but if there are two scummy groups in opposition to each other, you don't have to support one or the other. You can despise them both! Your enemy's enemy is not necessarily your friend.

I know the authoritarian right always like to support the most powerful scummy group and the authoritarian left like to support the least powerful scummy group, but if you hadn't noticed, Indymedia is generally of the anti-authoritarian left and so most people here would hate both groups.

Are you from one of those cultish old-school left groups like the Revolutionary Communist Party or whatever their splinter groups are called these days, by any chance?

has this to say about dictators:

'In modern usage, the term "dictator" is generally used to describe a leader who holds and/or abuses an extraordinary amount of personal power, especially the power to make laws without effective restraint by a legislative assembly. Dictatorships are often characterized by some of the following traits: suspension of elections and of civil liberties; proclamation of a state of emergency; rule by decree; repression of political opponents without abiding by rule of law procedures; these include single-party state, and cult of personality.'

I'd say that summed up Gaddafi quite neatly.

Speaking as a Capitalist, I would like to thank you all for your sterling work in helping us predominate the myth of dictators.

It has been no end of assistance to us in our wars to topple those who will not do as we tell them.

What people don't understand is what we Capitalists understand, that if you can claim to be a democracy, you can mimic all the characteristics of the dictatorship, while not actually ever running the risk of being accused of dictatorial behaviour. So we can invade other countries, slaughter our enemies at will (preferably televised so everybody gets it) and even hoard huge amounts of money to keep for ourselves while imposing tremendous hardship on the peasants, who are only peasants in the first place because they WILL NOT get a job. So we can be dictators in all but name and all on the basis of democracy, which only really exists in the mind of ideologists and simpletons anyway!

So once again thanks so much for helping us out at your little internet forum. We really couldn't do it without you ( that bits a lie by the way!).

Here, have a few pence of money to tide you all over till the next benefit cheque comes in (will it? won't it?).

PS, I hope your all watching the telly, we're doing the Iraq thing by having our people hunting in holes in the ground for gaddaffi duck just like we did in Iraq. (We've already found him and have him locked up in a cell while we politely ask him some questions about some gold and some money he's got tucked away, when we're ready, we'll put him in a hole then suddenly find him on live on telly so everybody can see how clever we are) Beauty is, this time it'll work.

See, we always win in the end.

Cheerio.

Sir Sidney Bardvark-Garter.
Ponsenby, Tarquin & Volvo Consultants.
www.gaddafiduckisabastard.com
www.saddam4oil.com
www.syriaisevilbutwedontquiteknowwhy.co.uk