I feel really conflicted over the cop stuff at the moment, and think it's worth discussing as a movement how we deal with it.
Firstly, I have been active long enough, and suffered harassment/physical violence at the hands of the police often enough to have no love for them.
While I don't think we should hold out the hand of friendship - how should we respond to discontent within the old bill?
It is a historical fact that many sucessful revolutions have involved police coming over to our side. While we should still expect repression next saturday, and cops behaving like they usually do - I think we should tentativley support and nurture any dissent within the police.
Trying to look at it objectivley, when we slag off the police staging their own protest march etc, are we seriously saying that once someone joins the cops, they can never change, or embark on the process of becoming radical. If some cops express support for us, then why should we slap their hands away (other than to keep the 'us against them' thing going)?

Once again - I have no love for the cops - I don't trust them or like them, and fully expect the majority of them to still behave like the arrogant bully boys that they are, but how should we respond to the fact that there will be growing dissent within the ranks of the police, and also maybe growing support for some of our ideas?

I'm hoping to start a serious debate on what I think is a serious subject, so I think it would be in the common interest to keep chest beating vitriol off this thread!

..are in my opinion all the same, only out for thier own agendas and power bases. Watch next week as the TUC,Unions,trots and communist parties all condem anyone taking collective or individual direct action and/or deviating from the planned A to B march and lecturing about dialectics, then telling us not to get too angry, while the TUC executive committee and leaders ot unions all go home to thier nice middle class lives not really upsetting the status quo. Like Orwells hate week. The old bill are going to get a nice little earner in overtime from this march and murder without fear of repercussions. If they were really serious they would come out on the 26th. In my opinion, just a PR exercise in thier efforts of divide and rule, getting on the side of the midle classes, who lets face it, just can`t stomach a proper ruck. They`ll march and chant within the confines of the law!!

Although invigorating in the short term direct action does nothing to build bonds with the population at large, i.e. the Times, Telegraph, Mail, Sun, Express readers who just see a group of kids messing around in a shop or smashing the windows of a bank and does little to bring people over to the cause.

If 500,000 people turn up on Saturday (a successful turnout by anyones estimations), this would still only represent 0.8% of the country's population... that's still an awful lot of people to persuade; smashing stuff up in London won't help - rational discourse and education will, both unfortunately only achievable in the long term.

You may slag off the Unions but they have a much longer history of successfully bringing about change for their members and are going to be key in the coming years, masked individuals in matching black clothing, whilst entertaining are not.

what ever you call the government policy force they are nothing more than the attack dogs of the state. The only people who disagree with that are people who have no experience of these thugs and probably have never questioned the legitimacy of sate.

Although the manner of the so called cuts are probably unjust, can it really be argued that a great many people have become dependent on state and it's inherent violence, from tax to war?

Where the state leaves a hole people find their own solution to keep the peace, and get along together, after all it's in their interest. The police stop this happening. They protect the violent system. That's their job.

I'd like to see the police cut but that won't happen.

"I'd like to see the police cut but that won't happen..."

I take it you are experienced with dealings with the balkan mob, jamaican yardies or turkish heroin gangs?

You've also got a plan in place that can successfully stop human trafficking, pedophiles oh and the guy that looks at me funny at the end of my road

Care to protect me from them when you get rid of the police?


Back onto topic, yes I believe we have to somehow get the police on side, hate breeds hate...

'I'd like to see the police cut, but that won't happen'.

To put that another way - you want the state to intervene to sort out your problem with the police? We all see that there are problems in society, but hoping that the state will sort them out for us is profoundly anti-anarchist! The argument that any cut is necasary it desirable plays into the hands of the Tories.

I guess the question I'm asking is 'when would we be prepared to accept that an individual cop, or group of cops was taking progressive steps to showing solidarity with the wider working class'?

To me 'when he quits the police' isn't a good enough answer, as I'm uncomfortable with the idea that an individual worker should be held to blame for the exploitative/oppressive tendencies of their boss or the institution they work in (that being said, I do recognise a difference between cops and other workers, and I do believe that a large number of cops get off on the level of violence and authority that they are entrusted with).

>> We all see that there are problems in society, but hoping that the state will sort them out for us is profoundly anti-anarchist!

Does that include state handouts too?
Is it profoundly anti-anarchist to take unemployment benefits?

"Does that include state handouts too? "

if you mean the huge handouts to the royal family, the mind-bogglingly huge handouts to the banks, the enormous handouts to big business and the arms trade, then yes, not only are these handouts anti-anarchist, but i'd say they're also anti-capitalist.

as a capitalist, i'm sure you'd agree.

Human beings are human beings, they are not potatoes to put them all in the same bag. Cops are having different teams. The teams they are responsible for the protests repression are really well paid and if it comes they will even hit their own parents. For the regular cops I think it is hard to change because of the ideology they get when they trained but you know everyone deemed by his own action and if he/she understands the role that plays in the society and decided to change and get rid off the uniform are more than welcome.

@Applegarth

When you talk about smashing windows or smashing stuff up you speak generally for violence. Personally I do not really agree with that, I do not agree with fetishism of violence but unfortunately violence is a structural element of our society and you can find it in every aspect of your life. Our role is not to play the movement's cop but demonstrate the government's propaganda, try to communicate with larger parts of society and set our ideals. For example it is ashamed that newspapers show faces of people without those people have been proved guilty and we do nothing. It is ashamed that the only solidarity action we did for the students arrest was a silly petition.

This is just the start. The start of the end of capitalism as we know it and it is our historical responsibility to reverse it. Nothing ends with the general strike on Saturday conversely everything starts now. I think it is really important to get organized in our work area and create autonomous base unions. The guys of TUC are venal, they called a general strike after a year, they called it on Saturday and above all they openly collaborate with the cops and are planning to bring stewards-disgust. We also can try to create open assemblies in every neighbor, collectives and the frames /structures our new society will be based when we reverse capitalism.

Since the non-existent socialism went down they tried to make us believe that it is the end of the history. They do not seem so sure today. I understand that large parts of English society are conservative but my dear the 80,90,100 years we stay alive is nothing for the humanity evolution and whoever does not get this understand history as a novel and as a science which it is. A spark is enough to be the start of everything, we have to try our best and make this spark visible.

Much as I resent the police for, eg - systematically covering up the scum that murdered Ian Tomlinson etc, this is a priceless PR coup in terms of deflecting likely right-wing media attempts to divide public opposition to the cuts by misrepresenting marchers as "unwashed" etc. There have been some extraordinary articles in The Daily Mail recently and it's us that should be dividing our enemies, not the other ay round --

Look who owns Britain: A third of the country STILL belongs to the aristocracy --
 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1328270/A-Britain-STILL-belongs-aristocracy.html#ixzz1HFIboLd8

London is most unequal city in Western world with gap between rich and poor widest since slavery
 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1267778/London-unequal-city-Western-world-gap-rich-poor-widest-slavery.html#ixzz1HFIgtJLM

> Care to protect me from them when you get rid of the police?

Care to protect me from the police?