Stop Anti-Traveller Racism At Leeds Common Place
No Racism at The Common Place | 24.02.2011 10:29 | Anti-racism | Culture | Social Struggles | Sheffield
Leeds has a large Traveller community, who like Travellers, Gypsies and Roma throughout Europe, get little or no respect. Despite being persecuted by the Nazis, and in spite of their recognised status under British race laws, they are still widely discriminated against and are subject to racial abuse and racist violence. They are perhaps the last group to be seen as a legitimate target for racist ‘humour’ and face increasing persecution both in the UK and across Europe.
To add to their many existing woes however, Leeds Travellers now face a new and perhaps unexpected foe - This Saturday, February 26th, The Common Place, Leeds supposed ‘radical’ social centre will be hosting ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ where the same sort of sneering middle-class idiots that previously organised ‘Chav’ nights, now invite you to come and take the piss out of an invented Gypsy ‘culture’ - Which has about as much to do with real Traveller culture as the Oxbridge boat race.
So we are told to expect a night of wild music performed by fake ‘Gypsies’ such as ‘DJ Shirley B**stard’ and ‘bizarre sideshows’ presented by ‘Madame Laycock’. To further take the piss guests are told to dress in their ‘wildest attire’ – presumably like ‘real’ Gypsies. Can’t you just imagine the sneering of art-school racists attempting to caricature people they clearly see as some sort of circus act?
The Common Place should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves for accepting a racist event which seeks to demean and belittle a minority group who already suffer widespread persecution. The Bookings Collective should be forced to resign for their insensitivity and made to attend Racial Awareness classes and the organisers of the event should be banned from future use of the building.
Despite already receiving complaints from members of Leeds Traveller community and from other Common Place users, the event is still scheduled to go ahead. So we are going to have to teach the organizers something that forms a part of real Gypsy culture, the constant threat of eviction. We are calling on all anti-racists, antifascists, activists, Common Place members, Travellers, and anyone who is sickened by the sneering racism of this event to help stop it taking place. Please come and show your opposition to the event and stand in solidarity against racism in all its forms.
PICKET AGAINST ANTI-TRAVELLER RACISM AT THE COMMON PLACE
SATURDAY 26TH FEBRUARY 7.30PM
THE COMMON PLACE, WHARF STREET (OPPOSITE THE ‘DUCK & DRAKE’ PUB), CENTRAL LEEDS
‘Gypsy Nightmare’ contact:
mildred_star@hotmail.com
Common Place: 0845 345 7334 info@commonplace.org.uk
You can also complain to Leeds Racial Equality Council at: leedsrec@btinternet.com
Please forward as widely as possible on lists, Facebook, Twitter, MySpace, etc.
To add to their many existing woes however, Leeds Travellers now face a new and perhaps unexpected foe - This Saturday, February 26th, The Common Place, Leeds supposed ‘radical’ social centre will be hosting ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ where the same sort of sneering middle-class idiots that previously organised ‘Chav’ nights, now invite you to come and take the piss out of an invented Gypsy ‘culture’ - Which has about as much to do with real Traveller culture as the Oxbridge boat race.
So we are told to expect a night of wild music performed by fake ‘Gypsies’ such as ‘DJ Shirley B**stard’ and ‘bizarre sideshows’ presented by ‘Madame Laycock’. To further take the piss guests are told to dress in their ‘wildest attire’ – presumably like ‘real’ Gypsies. Can’t you just imagine the sneering of art-school racists attempting to caricature people they clearly see as some sort of circus act?
The Common Place should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves for accepting a racist event which seeks to demean and belittle a minority group who already suffer widespread persecution. The Bookings Collective should be forced to resign for their insensitivity and made to attend Racial Awareness classes and the organisers of the event should be banned from future use of the building.
Despite already receiving complaints from members of Leeds Traveller community and from other Common Place users, the event is still scheduled to go ahead. So we are going to have to teach the organizers something that forms a part of real Gypsy culture, the constant threat of eviction. We are calling on all anti-racists, antifascists, activists, Common Place members, Travellers, and anyone who is sickened by the sneering racism of this event to help stop it taking place. Please come and show your opposition to the event and stand in solidarity against racism in all its forms.
PICKET AGAINST ANTI-TRAVELLER RACISM AT THE COMMON PLACE
SATURDAY 26TH FEBRUARY 7.30PM
THE COMMON PLACE, WHARF STREET (OPPOSITE THE ‘DUCK & DRAKE’ PUB), CENTRAL LEEDS
‘Gypsy Nightmare’ contact:
mildred_star@hotmail.com Common Place: 0845 345 7334
info@commonplace.org.uk You can also complain to Leeds Racial Equality Council at:
leedsrec@btinternet.com Please forward as widely as possible on lists, Facebook, Twitter, MySpace, etc.
No Racism at The Common Place
Homepage:
http://northern-indymedia.org/articles/1409
Additions
comment transferred from northern imc:
24.02.2011 12:35
As someone who has help out (only very little) at the Common Place I find this article hard reading. The main reason the Common Place is going is so that Common Conversation has a home, a place giving free english lessons to refugees. If you have come to Common Conversation and seen the 50 or so people eating and chatting away with bus fares paid for than you will know how important the space can be. At most meetings there are about 5 people who stay up late on weekends trying to keep it running. I would love for someone to come to a meeting an raise these points but this feels more like a smear than an opportunity to engage. The bookings collective has two exhausted volunteers.
If more people were involved then we might have noticed that this event was controversial and had productive dialogue early on. I think there are lots of issues this raises and we could certainly have been dealt it better but the Common Place needs energy to be able to do this. Not an excuse but we are fighting a £15 000 court fee, environmental health threatening to close us down and down and only a handful of volunteers. We are also trying to deal fallout from having a cop as our company directors.
If more people were involved then we might have noticed that this event was controversial and had productive dialogue early on. I think there are lots of issues this raises and we could certainly have been dealt it better but the Common Place needs energy to be able to do this. Not an excuse but we are fighting a £15 000 court fee, environmental health threatening to close us down and down and only a handful of volunteers. We are also trying to deal fallout from having a cop as our company directors.
paster
reposted from northern indymedia
24.02.2011 13:54
as someone involved in an autonomous social centre that is part of the same uk wide network as the common place i am both angry, disgusted and so very very despairing of this.
having known that the common place was financially struggling, i had previously been feeling quite sad at the potential loss of an autonomous space in leeds, and another one gone in the uk. but really, my sympathy and desire to help support the common place has been completely destroyed by this.
across the rest of the uk there are people working incredibly hard right now to mobilise for the upcoming eviction of dale farm, and within this to counter the virulent racism and stigmatising of gypsy and traveller communities across the world. and autonomous social centres are playing a key role in being part of uk wide radical infrastructure offering a home to events, meetings, mobilisations on this matter.
i cannot accept the comments made my nab. this just seems to be classic racism deflection. yes, the common place is skint, yes, there are environmental health problems, yes, there was a cop. these are facts, not excuses. and placing them within this context merely serve to shift attention from calling racism, racism.
equally, of course nobody would want the common conversations project to completely fall apart in leeds. but again, this does not mean that we should continue to support the common place. if people think the project is really that important, it will find a new home. and politically, using one "minority" group's needs to excuse the stereotyping of another "minority" group is deeply suspicious. capitalism pits "us" against "them" continously in order to create hierarchies and divisions.. we must refuse to play this game in any form.
this situation is more than "controversial", and it only ever needs one person to call out racism, and say no to an event of this kind happening.
not being based in leeds i cannot comment on how the community there should manage this situation. and in terms of the political positioning of the common place, it is evident that things have not been going well for a really really long time. maybe it's time to let one thing go, and for a new centre with considered politics, effort and community support to fill its place....
having known that the common place was financially struggling, i had previously been feeling quite sad at the potential loss of an autonomous space in leeds, and another one gone in the uk. but really, my sympathy and desire to help support the common place has been completely destroyed by this.
across the rest of the uk there are people working incredibly hard right now to mobilise for the upcoming eviction of dale farm, and within this to counter the virulent racism and stigmatising of gypsy and traveller communities across the world. and autonomous social centres are playing a key role in being part of uk wide radical infrastructure offering a home to events, meetings, mobilisations on this matter.
i cannot accept the comments made my nab. this just seems to be classic racism deflection. yes, the common place is skint, yes, there are environmental health problems, yes, there was a cop. these are facts, not excuses. and placing them within this context merely serve to shift attention from calling racism, racism.
equally, of course nobody would want the common conversations project to completely fall apart in leeds. but again, this does not mean that we should continue to support the common place. if people think the project is really that important, it will find a new home. and politically, using one "minority" group's needs to excuse the stereotyping of another "minority" group is deeply suspicious. capitalism pits "us" against "them" continously in order to create hierarchies and divisions.. we must refuse to play this game in any form.
this situation is more than "controversial", and it only ever needs one person to call out racism, and say no to an event of this kind happening.
not being based in leeds i cannot comment on how the community there should manage this situation. and in terms of the political positioning of the common place, it is evident that things have not been going well for a really really long time. maybe it's time to let one thing go, and for a new centre with considered politics, effort and community support to fill its place....
paster
Apology
24.02.2011 14:53
Hello,
We are really sorry for offending the Gypsy and Traveller community and everyone else who has been offended by the event title and event 'A Gypsy Nightmare'. The title or night has nothing to do with targeting the gypsy and traveller community. It's called a 'gypsy nightmare' because it's trying to describe the music we play and the other bands at the event. In the past we have been described as Gypsy Music many times in reviews and so have the other bands.
When we named the night we just thought about this musical link and I suppose the Romanticism of Eastern Europe back in 1400's. It is a one off event to raise funds for Royal Park School to stay open. An event we were hoping would make people enjoy the music we play and have some fun. Some fun at nobody else's expense. I know it's at a very late stage but we want to change the name to 'Madam Laycock presents...' and apologise for any offence caused to anyone. We have been in contact with GATE apologising and explaining why we chose the name.
Sincerely Sorry,
Madam Laycock and her Dabeno Pleasures
We are really sorry for offending the Gypsy and Traveller community and everyone else who has been offended by the event title and event 'A Gypsy Nightmare'. The title or night has nothing to do with targeting the gypsy and traveller community. It's called a 'gypsy nightmare' because it's trying to describe the music we play and the other bands at the event. In the past we have been described as Gypsy Music many times in reviews and so have the other bands.
When we named the night we just thought about this musical link and I suppose the Romanticism of Eastern Europe back in 1400's. It is a one off event to raise funds for Royal Park School to stay open. An event we were hoping would make people enjoy the music we play and have some fun. Some fun at nobody else's expense. I know it's at a very late stage but we want to change the name to 'Madam Laycock presents...' and apologise for any offence caused to anyone. We have been in contact with GATE apologising and explaining why we chose the name.
Sincerely Sorry,
Madam Laycock and her Dabeno Pleasures
Madam Laycock and her Dabeno Pleasures (from Northern)
Homepage:
http://northern-indymedia.org/articles/1409#comment-353
Apology
24.02.2011 17:38
Apology
The CommonPlace would like to apologise for not acting earlier with regard to the racist implications of this event. We are happy to see an apology and explanation from the promoters, and see this as a sincere willingness to make amends
The promoters have responded to complaints and concerns they have received regarding the way the event is represented on their advertising. They have recognised, as have we, how it could give the wrong, and wholly unintended, impression. They are also considering splitting the funds raised from the event with a traveller support group, as suggested by one person who raised a complaint.
The name of the event has been changed and there is an open meeting tonight (8pm) to try and decide what else needs to be done.
Please read the full text here:
http://www.thecommonplace.org.uk/component/content/article/218-apology-qgypsy-nightmareq-event.html
The CommonPlace would like to apologise for not acting earlier with regard to the racist implications of this event. We are happy to see an apology and explanation from the promoters, and see this as a sincere willingness to make amends
The promoters have responded to complaints and concerns they have received regarding the way the event is represented on their advertising. They have recognised, as have we, how it could give the wrong, and wholly unintended, impression. They are also considering splitting the funds raised from the event with a traveller support group, as suggested by one person who raised a complaint.
The name of the event has been changed and there is an open meeting tonight (8pm) to try and decide what else needs to be done.
Please read the full text here:
http://www.thecommonplace.org.uk/component/content/article/218-apology-qgypsy-nightmareq-event.html
The Commonplace
e-mail:
info@thecommonplace.org.uk
Homepage:
http://www.thecommonplace.org.uk/
Divide and Conquer
25.02.2011 00:45
I work for Leeds GATE (see web link) and a few weeks ago I emailed the organisers of this event about the flyer I had seen in my local. I outlined the dreadful health status and homeless situation which Leeds Gypsies and Travellers face (a life expentency of 50) and spoke about the offence that could be caused. I got a good positive response from the organisers, who appologised. I do believe that they did not intend any offence by the title & theme of this night, ill-conceived though it clearly was.
We deal with Leeds City Council evicting families with babies, old people(many leeds born and bred) who have no safe place to put their caravan. Leeds has one Traveller site, which is full with a long waiting list. To live in a house for many of these people would be like a prison sentence.
I am amazed, impressed and encouraged to see such passion here backing the Gypsy Traveller cause in the Leeds area. However I am also suspicious that some are jumping on this cause in order to have a dig at the Common Place. Where are you when our families are being evicted? Where are your comments to the YEP when they publish a racist article? For years we have felt quite alone in this battle and not been backed (actively) by the left in Leeds.
So if you would like more information on how to help the cause and join 'Friends Of GATE' newsletter mailout, please contact me.
To Mark, all I can assume is that your wife is not from the Leeds area. I think Leeds people have risen above much of the divison between Gypsies and Irish Travellers, many families are married in to each other and English and Irish get on very well. How dare you say that Irish Travellers are just people who turn their hand to anything, what do you mean? 'Tinkers?' 'Settled people who came out of their houses during the Potato Famine?' These are total fallacies but all too commonly believed. Irish Travellers also have a rich history dating back over 1000 years, Gypsies originated from south central Pakistan (then India) and they were part of an army, not evicted from their land. Please don't start bring in divisions between the two groups, which I fear that is something that has held back the Traveller Civil Rights Movement for years.
(By the way, as I'm sure most of you are aware, 'Travellers' as the umbrella term should have a capital 'T', as should 'Gypsies' )
Thanks again to all those supporting us.
Claire,
Leeds Gypsy and Traveller Exchange
http://www.grtleeds.co.uk/information/GATE.html
We deal with Leeds City Council evicting families with babies, old people(many leeds born and bred) who have no safe place to put their caravan. Leeds has one Traveller site, which is full with a long waiting list. To live in a house for many of these people would be like a prison sentence.
I am amazed, impressed and encouraged to see such passion here backing the Gypsy Traveller cause in the Leeds area. However I am also suspicious that some are jumping on this cause in order to have a dig at the Common Place. Where are you when our families are being evicted? Where are your comments to the YEP when they publish a racist article? For years we have felt quite alone in this battle and not been backed (actively) by the left in Leeds.
So if you would like more information on how to help the cause and join 'Friends Of GATE' newsletter mailout, please contact me.
To Mark, all I can assume is that your wife is not from the Leeds area. I think Leeds people have risen above much of the divison between Gypsies and Irish Travellers, many families are married in to each other and English and Irish get on very well. How dare you say that Irish Travellers are just people who turn their hand to anything, what do you mean? 'Tinkers?' 'Settled people who came out of their houses during the Potato Famine?' These are total fallacies but all too commonly believed. Irish Travellers also have a rich history dating back over 1000 years, Gypsies originated from south central Pakistan (then India) and they were part of an army, not evicted from their land. Please don't start bring in divisions between the two groups, which I fear that is something that has held back the Traveller Civil Rights Movement for years.
(By the way, as I'm sure most of you are aware, 'Travellers' as the umbrella term should have a capital 'T', as should 'Gypsies' )
Thanks again to all those supporting us.
Claire,
Leeds Gypsy and Traveller Exchange
http://www.grtleeds.co.uk/information/GATE.html
Claireblue
e-mail:
claire@leedsgate.co.uk
Homepage:
http://www.grtleeds.co.uk/information/GATE.html
A response
25.02.2011 12:10
I am one of the people outraged by the promotion of this event at The Common Place and the original poster. I can assure some posters that I do not sit at home all day on the internet since I do not have a home internet connection and had to walk two miles to make my post yesterday. As an active antifascist I certainly have better things to do than confronting lazy racist stereotyping at an event at a supposedly ‘radical’ social centre, and am sickened to have to do so. It’s not so long ago that I had to speak to someone previously involved in running The Commonplace about using the phrase ‘dirty pikey’.
Claire, I don’t know where you have got your suspicions about the hard-working anti-racists concerned about this event, but I hope that you will lay them aside. As for myself, I was fighting with council workers evicting Travellers as a teenager in Sheffield in the 1970’s. I have shared prison cells with Travellers, count them among my close friends, and my former partner is a Traveller. Like myself, she is also a Common Place member and an antifascist, and is absolutely livid about this and similar events. Unfortunately she is out of the country until Sunday, but I’m sure you’ll be hearing from her when she returns (she used to work at Cottingley Advice incidentally). The organizers of this event may have apologised to you when you complained to them several weeks ago, and you have not been the only person to complain, but they carried on promoting their event in exactly the same form as before. It was only when threatened with disruption to their event that they began to reconsider the wisdom of choosing such an offensive name. Despite apologising and saying that they won’t use the name ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ on the night, the event seems to be the same as before, complete with ‘gypsy DJ Shirley B**tard’.
The decision to host ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ at The Common Place was apparently taken by only one or two people, so for them to personalise this issue and to try and hide behind The Common Place, claiming that opposition to a blatantly offensive event is “an attack on The Common Place” or “a smear” is pathetic. I was one of the first members of The Common Place, and I imagine that most Common Place members are as appalled by the idea of a ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ as I am. The attempts by some posters on this thread to hide behind the people who use Common Conversation remind me of racist comedian Jim Davidson’s references to his mate ‘Chalky’. Common Conversation is run autonomously by hard working people who are nothing to do with this, anymore than those who attend it are. All right-thinking people would be disgusted by this event.
It would be good to see a sincere apology from The Common Place Bookings Collective for the offence they have caused, but for me the one so far offered agreeing with their mates the organizers is more about self-justification than contrition and it smacks of arrogance and even deceit rather than sincerity. The people concerned seem more bothered about being called on their behaviour rather than their behaviour itself. Let’s put this event in context, The Common Place have in the past blocked both an antifascist film day and an antifascist social, yet they were happy to accept an event called ‘Gypsy Nightmare’, they promoted it in all its offensive glory on the Common Place website and garish posters bearing the name were prominently displayed around the building, to claim the event somehow “fell through the cracks” is rubbish. Just how stupid would you have to be to think that an event called ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ would NOT cause offence? Everyone I know has reacted with immediate horror to this, and we’re supposed to be the ‘thick’ ones. Now we are being patronised for not seeing that it was all just a silly misunderstanding?
The language of the apology from the organizers at least sounds more contrite, but they had the opportunity weeks ago to amend the offensive name and nature of this event and chose to keep advertising it regardless. Are they saying that their music, the least offensive thing about the event, is a ‘nightmare’? Is ‘nightmare’ just a bland and random word or a word linked to 1400’s ‘Romanticism’? More likely, one of their number has been watching too much racist stereotyping on TV. Not every person who uses racist language or imagery does so with hatred in their heart, but it does not alter the fact of what they’ve done. This sort of lazy cultural stereotyping is nothing new and certainly not confined to Travellers. People should not have to be challenged about it, they should educate themselves. They are using what is supposed to be a ‘political’ and ‘safe’ space afterall.
Yesterday, I heard a lot of ‘How could we/they possibly be racist’ from supposedly educated people who should know better. Racism is racism whether it involves your friends or not and it should ALWAYS be challenged, as should the belittling and lazy stereotyping involved in this and other events. You shouldn’t need to be called on this.
Where the money made from this event goes is largely irrelevant, but if the organizers are ‘considering’ donating money to a Traveller support project they have been slow to actually make any commitment. I suggested that they should be making such a donation when I spoke to the author of their statement before it was issued yesterday. If the organizers have belatedly discovered something of the reality of being a Gypsy in Leeds and are genuinely willing to play a proper respectful benefit fair play to them. However, this night is an abomination, the apologies offered so far are way too little too late. They have caused deep offense and they continue to be offensive, and this event should in my view continue to be opposed.
Claire, I don’t know where you have got your suspicions about the hard-working anti-racists concerned about this event, but I hope that you will lay them aside. As for myself, I was fighting with council workers evicting Travellers as a teenager in Sheffield in the 1970’s. I have shared prison cells with Travellers, count them among my close friends, and my former partner is a Traveller. Like myself, she is also a Common Place member and an antifascist, and is absolutely livid about this and similar events. Unfortunately she is out of the country until Sunday, but I’m sure you’ll be hearing from her when she returns (she used to work at Cottingley Advice incidentally). The organizers of this event may have apologised to you when you complained to them several weeks ago, and you have not been the only person to complain, but they carried on promoting their event in exactly the same form as before. It was only when threatened with disruption to their event that they began to reconsider the wisdom of choosing such an offensive name. Despite apologising and saying that they won’t use the name ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ on the night, the event seems to be the same as before, complete with ‘gypsy DJ Shirley B**tard’.
The decision to host ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ at The Common Place was apparently taken by only one or two people, so for them to personalise this issue and to try and hide behind The Common Place, claiming that opposition to a blatantly offensive event is “an attack on The Common Place” or “a smear” is pathetic. I was one of the first members of The Common Place, and I imagine that most Common Place members are as appalled by the idea of a ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ as I am. The attempts by some posters on this thread to hide behind the people who use Common Conversation remind me of racist comedian Jim Davidson’s references to his mate ‘Chalky’. Common Conversation is run autonomously by hard working people who are nothing to do with this, anymore than those who attend it are. All right-thinking people would be disgusted by this event.
It would be good to see a sincere apology from The Common Place Bookings Collective for the offence they have caused, but for me the one so far offered agreeing with their mates the organizers is more about self-justification than contrition and it smacks of arrogance and even deceit rather than sincerity. The people concerned seem more bothered about being called on their behaviour rather than their behaviour itself. Let’s put this event in context, The Common Place have in the past blocked both an antifascist film day and an antifascist social, yet they were happy to accept an event called ‘Gypsy Nightmare’, they promoted it in all its offensive glory on the Common Place website and garish posters bearing the name were prominently displayed around the building, to claim the event somehow “fell through the cracks” is rubbish. Just how stupid would you have to be to think that an event called ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ would NOT cause offence? Everyone I know has reacted with immediate horror to this, and we’re supposed to be the ‘thick’ ones. Now we are being patronised for not seeing that it was all just a silly misunderstanding?
The language of the apology from the organizers at least sounds more contrite, but they had the opportunity weeks ago to amend the offensive name and nature of this event and chose to keep advertising it regardless. Are they saying that their music, the least offensive thing about the event, is a ‘nightmare’? Is ‘nightmare’ just a bland and random word or a word linked to 1400’s ‘Romanticism’? More likely, one of their number has been watching too much racist stereotyping on TV. Not every person who uses racist language or imagery does so with hatred in their heart, but it does not alter the fact of what they’ve done. This sort of lazy cultural stereotyping is nothing new and certainly not confined to Travellers. People should not have to be challenged about it, they should educate themselves. They are using what is supposed to be a ‘political’ and ‘safe’ space afterall.
Yesterday, I heard a lot of ‘How could we/they possibly be racist’ from supposedly educated people who should know better. Racism is racism whether it involves your friends or not and it should ALWAYS be challenged, as should the belittling and lazy stereotyping involved in this and other events. You shouldn’t need to be called on this.
Where the money made from this event goes is largely irrelevant, but if the organizers are ‘considering’ donating money to a Traveller support project they have been slow to actually make any commitment. I suggested that they should be making such a donation when I spoke to the author of their statement before it was issued yesterday. If the organizers have belatedly discovered something of the reality of being a Gypsy in Leeds and are genuinely willing to play a proper respectful benefit fair play to them. However, this night is an abomination, the apologies offered so far are way too little too late. They have caused deep offense and they continue to be offensive, and this event should in my view continue to be opposed.
Mark Barnsley
Leeds GATE
25.02.2011 14:01
Leeds GATE have certaily NOT offered our full support to the night, as stated in my comment above we raised our concerns, we felt that they had been listened to and in light of this being a charity fund raiser we were satisfied that the organisers had not meant to cause offence.
The organisers of the event are also NOT working with GATE to create a future funding event, this is not true.
I will paste the email conversation we had about a week and a half ago below..... Representatives of GATE will be outside the venue tonight and look forward to talking to all those involved, we were unable to make the meeting last night at such short notice.
....with the last one first (obviously) here is the email conversation
Hello,
Thank you. I've had a look at the organisation, I really like the culture section and the Childrens writing and poetry and what your organisation is doing. Did you also do the TV Documentary? If you ever want us to do any gigs for you, please ask. And sorry again for offending anyone.
Yours,
Mildred
--- On Wed, 16/2/11, Claire Graham wrote:
From: Claire Graham
Subject: RE: Gypsy Nightmare
To: "Madam Laycock"
Date: Wednesday, 16 February, 2011, 9:54
Hi Mildred, thank you for your quick and honest reply. I am aware of Gypsy music and understand how yourselves have been connected with it in. Thanks for taking on the points I have raised. Here is a link that tells you a little more about the community in Leeds http://www.grtleeds.co.uk/information/GATE.html
Claire Graham (Advocacy Development Worker)
Leeds Gypsy and Traveller Exchange
Ground Floor, Crown Point House
169 Cross Green Lane
Leeds
LS9 0BD
Tel. 01132009042
07967679892
From: Madam Laycock [mailto: madam_laycock@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 16 February 2011 00:16
To: info@thecommonplace.org.uk; Claire Graham
Subject: Re: Gypsy Nightmare
Hello Claire,
I'm really sorry for offending you, others and your organisation. The title or night has nothing to do with targeting the gypsy and traveller community. It's called a 'gypsy nightmare' because it's trying to describe the music we play and the other bands at the event. In the past we have been described as Gypsy Music many times in reviews.
When we named the night we just thought about this musical link and I suppose the Romanticism of Eastern Europe back in 1400's. It is a one off event to raise funds for Royal Park School and if we plan another event at a later date we will think about using a different title as we really don't want to offend anyone.
Sincerely Sorry,
Mildred
Madam Laycock and her Dabeno Pleasures
This is a link to a quick explanation of Gypsy Music, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsy_style
--- On Tue, 15/2/11, Claire Graham wrote:
From: Claire Graham
Subject: Gypsy Nightmare
To: madam_laycock@yahoo.co.uk, info@thecommonplace.org.uk
Date: Tuesday, 15 February, 2011, 16:58
Dear Madam Laycock, Dear Common Place,
I am writing to express my anguish for a night I saw advertised in my local pub last week. I do not wish to criticise your work I am aware of the fantastic work the Common Place does and that the evening is a much needed fundraiser for Royal Park School. I do however want to express my disappointment at the way ‘Gypsy’ has been used to advertise the above night.
Leeds GATE are one of very few voluntary sector organisation across the country that work with English Gypsies and Irish Travellers (both recognized ethnic groups Race Relations Amendment Act 1996 & 2000). As you probably already know the communities are faced with daily misunderstanding and stereotype. In 2006 GATE carried out a census in Leeds with over 1000 community members which found a life expectancy of 50 years of age. The community also suffer from high infant mortality and increased mental and physical health difficulties.
We do an awful lot of work trying to get the settled population ‘on our side’ lobbying the councils and local MPs to provide sites to deal with homeless families and dispel myths.
I believe the media has a lot to answer for with regards to many of these issues and I also believe that our fellow organizations with left leanings should shoulder some of the responsibility in challenging widely held poorly informed beliefs. ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ conjures up images of the exotic, other, the outsider, dark, mysterious, even dangerous. I don’t think its appropriate. I have also shown the flyer to a few community members who would agree.
I just wanted to raise this with you for consideration before you would go ahead and organize another night.
I would also appreciate an acknowledgement of this email, perhaps with your thoughts on the matter.
Claire Graham (Advocacy Development Worker)
Leeds Gypsy and Traveller Exchange
Ground Floor, Crown Point House
169 Cross Green Lane
Leeds
LS9 0BD
Tel. 01132009042
07967679892
The organisers of the event are also NOT working with GATE to create a future funding event, this is not true.
I will paste the email conversation we had about a week and a half ago below..... Representatives of GATE will be outside the venue tonight and look forward to talking to all those involved, we were unable to make the meeting last night at such short notice.
....with the last one first (obviously) here is the email conversation
Hello,
Thank you. I've had a look at the organisation, I really like the culture section and the Childrens writing and poetry and what your organisation is doing. Did you also do the TV Documentary? If you ever want us to do any gigs for you, please ask. And sorry again for offending anyone.
Yours,
Mildred
--- On Wed, 16/2/11, Claire Graham wrote:
From: Claire Graham
Subject: RE: Gypsy Nightmare
To: "Madam Laycock"
Date: Wednesday, 16 February, 2011, 9:54
Hi Mildred, thank you for your quick and honest reply. I am aware of Gypsy music and understand how yourselves have been connected with it in. Thanks for taking on the points I have raised. Here is a link that tells you a little more about the community in Leeds
http://www.grtleeds.co.uk/information/GATE.html Claire Graham (Advocacy Development Worker)
Leeds Gypsy and Traveller Exchange
Ground Floor, Crown Point House
169 Cross Green Lane
Leeds
LS9 0BD
Tel. 01132009042
07967679892
From: Madam Laycock [mailto:
madam_laycock@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: 16 February 2011 00:16
To:
info@thecommonplace.org.uk; Claire Graham Subject: Re: Gypsy Nightmare
Hello Claire,
I'm really sorry for offending you, others and your organisation. The title or night has nothing to do with targeting the gypsy and traveller community. It's called a 'gypsy nightmare' because it's trying to describe the music we play and the other bands at the event. In the past we have been described as Gypsy Music many times in reviews.
When we named the night we just thought about this musical link and I suppose the Romanticism of Eastern Europe back in 1400's. It is a one off event to raise funds for Royal Park School and if we plan another event at a later date we will think about using a different title as we really don't want to offend anyone.
Sincerely Sorry,
Mildred
Madam Laycock and her Dabeno Pleasures
This is a link to a quick explanation of Gypsy Music,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsy_style --- On Tue, 15/2/11, Claire Graham wrote:
From: Claire Graham
Subject: Gypsy Nightmare
To:
madam_laycock@yahoo.co.uk, info@thecommonplace.org.uk Date: Tuesday, 15 February, 2011, 16:58
Dear Madam Laycock, Dear Common Place,
I am writing to express my anguish for a night I saw advertised in my local pub last week. I do not wish to criticise your work I am aware of the fantastic work the Common Place does and that the evening is a much needed fundraiser for Royal Park School. I do however want to express my disappointment at the way ‘Gypsy’ has been used to advertise the above night.
Leeds GATE are one of very few voluntary sector organisation across the country that work with English Gypsies and Irish Travellers (both recognized ethnic groups Race Relations Amendment Act 1996 & 2000). As you probably already know the communities are faced with daily misunderstanding and stereotype. In 2006 GATE carried out a census in Leeds with over 1000 community members which found a life expectancy of 50 years of age. The community also suffer from high infant mortality and increased mental and physical health difficulties.
We do an awful lot of work trying to get the settled population ‘on our side’ lobbying the councils and local MPs to provide sites to deal with homeless families and dispel myths.
I believe the media has a lot to answer for with regards to many of these issues and I also believe that our fellow organizations with left leanings should shoulder some of the responsibility in challenging widely held poorly informed beliefs. ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ conjures up images of the exotic, other, the outsider, dark, mysterious, even dangerous. I don’t think its appropriate. I have also shown the flyer to a few community members who would agree.
I just wanted to raise this with you for consideration before you would go ahead and organize another night.
I would also appreciate an acknowledgement of this email, perhaps with your thoughts on the matter.
Claire Graham (Advocacy Development Worker)
Leeds Gypsy and Traveller Exchange
Ground Floor, Crown Point House
169 Cross Green Lane
Leeds
LS9 0BD
Tel. 01132009042
07967679892
Claireblue
e-mail:
claire@leedsgate.co.uk
Let this be the end of all false speculation.
25.02.2011 18:34
To clarify re: GATEFriday, 25 February, 2011 15:23
From: "Madam Laycock" View contact details
To: cpbookings@yahoo.co.uk, jess@qw6.net
Cc: Claire@leedsgate.co.uk
Hello,
Please could we just clarify that following a comment left on Indymedia which claimed GATE are fully backing this event and planning future events with Madam Laycock,
Madam Laycock did not post this comment. GATE do not back this event.
GATE will be represented by Claire on Saturday evening, who is welcome at the event where she will have literature about the organisation and happy to discuss any issues with anyone attending.
No future plans have been discussed or made between Madam Laycock and GATE. However, both are looking to take the positives from this situation, and will encourage others to do so.
Many thanks,
Madam Laycock
From: "Madam Laycock" View contact details
To:
cpbookings@yahoo.co.uk, jess@qw6.net Cc:
Claire@leedsgate.co.uk Hello,
Please could we just clarify that following a comment left on Indymedia which claimed GATE are fully backing this event and planning future events with Madam Laycock,
Madam Laycock did not post this comment. GATE do not back this event.
GATE will be represented by Claire on Saturday evening, who is welcome at the event where she will have literature about the organisation and happy to discuss any issues with anyone attending.
No future plans have been discussed or made between Madam Laycock and GATE. However, both are looking to take the positives from this situation, and will encourage others to do so.
Many thanks,
Madam Laycock
Mildred (Madam Laycock and her Dabeno Pleasures)
Event planned for Saturday 26th February
25.02.2011 21:47
This event has been cancelled.
Serious complications have arisen at the last minute which we feel cannot be dealt with in the time available.
We hope to work closely with the promoters in the future on an exciting and inclusive event.
We also hope to be able to help raise funds for Royal Park Consortium, and be in more frequent contact from now on with Leeds Gypsy and Traveller Exchange (GATE).
Serious complications have arisen at the last minute which we feel cannot be dealt with in the time available.
We hope to work closely with the promoters in the future on an exciting and inclusive event.
We also hope to be able to help raise funds for Royal Park Consortium, and be in more frequent contact from now on with Leeds Gypsy and Traveller Exchange (GATE).
proc
Homepage:
http://www.thecommonplace.org.uk/component/content/article/219-event-planned-for
We fucked up about the proposed event "Gypsy Nightmare"
26.02.2011 11:24
As one of the Commonplace organising collective that night I wish to apologise not dealing with this matter earlier. I was at the meeting on Thursday and can confirm we were told Gate were behind the event. We were lied to on that night!
When the organising collective found out they had been lied to, by someone going round to GATE and checking personally, the process to get agreement to cancel the event was started immediately. No one tried to keep the event going. They all thought that 'we' had been lied to by the promoters so the event was off.
The first I knew about problems about the event was an email sent to the leedssocialcentre list on the morning of the 24th February with the general meeting that evening. Get in touch earlier if you have problems with a proposed event held at the Commonplace rather than leaving it to "the last minute". If you think 'our' overall politics' stink get more involved rather than sniping.
Dave
When the organising collective found out they had been lied to, by someone going round to GATE and checking personally, the process to get agreement to cancel the event was started immediately. No one tried to keep the event going. They all thought that 'we' had been lied to by the promoters so the event was off.
The first I knew about problems about the event was an email sent to the leedssocialcentre list on the morning of the 24th February with the general meeting that evening. Get in touch earlier if you have problems with a proposed event held at the Commonplace rather than leaving it to "the last minute". If you think 'our' overall politics' stink get more involved rather than sniping.
Dave
GPD
Comments
Hide 31 hidden comments or hide all comments
I'll be there
24.02.2011 10:40
Antifascist
fairground nightmare...
24.02.2011 11:23
the details of the night, seem to be themed around a old fashioned fair, rather than anything to do with gypsies ("showmen" and gypsies (romany or irish travellers)) are not the same thing - however - to be balanced there is nothing specifically insulting to gypsies here, other than the title of the night itself.
however, with the daft and inappropriate title the promoters and the venue bring trouble upon themselves.
bad name...
Name
24.02.2011 11:53
Bob
With "gypsy DJ Shirley Bastard"
24.02.2011 12:06
Sickening
Royal Park School too??
24.02.2011 12:20
all profits going to Royal Park School...are they 'in this together' ???
an on on
Idiots!
24.02.2011 12:22
af
Idiots!
24.02.2011 12:25
af
As above.
24.02.2011 12:25
Perhaps next week: 'A Jewish nightmare'.
Grim.
This isn't channel 4.
About time
24.02.2011 12:44
Sort it out!
-------------------------------------------------------
Also worth looking at is Leeds Uni's 'Disco Partizani' night, which features a fortune teller and cheap entry for people in 'gypsy' fancy dress!
They suggest
"*Costume optional - take your pick...
Guys and girls = dark trousers, light shirt, trouser braces, cap/ trilby; punk/ ska; circus/ (sad) clown chic, make-up; any Eastern European dress
Girls = gypsy skirts, headscarves, golden earrings, coinbelts."
(Check out Photos below to get a feel.)
Leeds
Not surprised, but not hard to sort out.
24.02.2011 13:18
Nothardtosortout
Roya Park school
24.02.2011 13:30
CP Member
Roya Park school
24.02.2011 13:31
CP Member
Roya Park school
24.02.2011 13:32
CP Member
Roya Park school
24.02.2011 13:34
CP Member
Roya Park school
24.02.2011 13:35
CP Member
Roya Park school
24.02.2011 13:47
CP Member
This event cannot go ahead
24.02.2011 14:03
Chapeltown Militia
More racism from the common place?
24.02.2011 14:26
@
Apology
24.02.2011 14:50
Not happy
Apology
24.02.2011 15:08
BB
Sod the apology
24.02.2011 15:11
Tom
calm and reasonable response
24.02.2011 15:24
it's also easy to get carried away on a tide of emotion about language and it's inappropriate use. however, comments such as:
"The Bookings Collective should be forced to resign for their insensitivity and made to attend Racial Awareness classes and the organisers of the event should be banned from future use of the building."
should suggest to us that this is not only a particularly personal attack on The Common Place but an emotive response in the line of purging and political purity. i hate to use the Daily Mail term 'political correctness gone mad', but surely suggesting such extreme measures - if they were meant seriously - are only counterproductive to more generalised struggle. This is not the same as confronting fascism on the streets, and nor should it be treated with such virulently aggressive terms. this was a misguided but fairly common type of event to be put on by a range of venues. Threatening action on it, rather than talking to organisers seems to me like point scoring and posturing rather than a genuine desire to fight racism.
It is obvious to me, through knowing wtih the Common Place and the bookings collective and this band, (as well as with the people calling for action on it) that this was by no means an intentional racism, that indymedia was perhaps the last port of call for a place to deal with this, that confronting active racism is a very different thing to dealing with internalised and unintentional racism, the same as with sexism and homophobia.
it's good to talk....
robespierre
Would Royal Park School welcome travellers?
24.02.2011 15:42
Would Royal Park School welcome travellers?
I guess not!
Dello
Apologism more like
24.02.2011 15:48
Pissed-off activist
Racism is wrong
24.02.2011 15:48
I make mistakes
To Robespierre
24.02.2011 15:53
'antifascist stuff being banned was 1 person with pacifist ideology, who everyone else disagreed with.'
--- 1 person proposed and the rest of them agreed. Only one person disagreed with it and that's why it the pro fascist motion went through. And by reading the minutes we all know who they were.
Anon
FFS
24.02.2011 16:01
As for the CP having 'lost its politics'. I am ot be biggest fan of the place, nor most of the other social centres up and down the country, but it has already been pointed out above that only a handful of people are running the place!
Someone
calm down dears...
24.02.2011 16:12
Trying to lay the entire societal prejudice towards gypsy and traveller communities at the door of the common place is both misguided and without a real basis as an argument. Those involved with social centres generally don't put on the majority of events that happen there. They provide a space, make sure the bar is stocked and that the political atmosphere is welcoming to newcomers, encouraging of those who try to help and available to as diverse a range of groups as possible.
This isn't an exact science and mistakes are frequently made. Think Mark Stone at the Sumac centre, Lynn Watson at the CP etc. It is also true that those who do the most make the most mistakes, and are most often the target of criticism. The people who have remained actively involved at the Common Place are extremely hard working, and have kept the space available against all the odds for many years. And there have been many odds.
From my experience, if someone asks to use the space I am involved in, we do a quick check what kind of event it is and who will benefit from it. In this case, I imagine the answer was something along the lines of "it's a benefit for a local school that was occupied by it's local residents in protest at its planned demolition and that is now being turned into an open autonomous space. There will be some bands playing and things like that"
At this point, our members would of course have given the thumbs up and the people organising it would have gone away and done their thing. What we wouldn't do is run around demanding to know the fine details of the night, check all the posters and demand to know the name of the night in advance. This isn't because we don't care, just that our attention is generally elsewhere from that point on.
If howeverit was brought to our attention that the event had a racist undertone (or sexist, homophobic etc) then of course the event would be cancelled after ascertaining the facts. This happened recently here where a band was scheduled to play, and it was discovered that several of their members were formerly active as nazis. This is without question.
So the question to ask before attacking the common place is, were they informed about the nature of the event and the offensive nature before this got posted into the middle of yet another indymedia witch hunt. If it is the case that they were and didn't care then yes questions need to be asked. If it is a simple case of not having it brought up in a way that they could actually do something about it, then what is the value in doing the polices work for them by targeting them.
Also, asking whether Royal Park School were somehow complicit - how many benefit gigs happen around the country every week by well meaning people trying to help out a group or project they believe in - are they all complicit and responsible for every one. We held a prisoner support cafe last week, is the prisoner we supported responsible for what we chose to put on the menu?
All I am saying is - calm down a little and if you have issues with the way your local social centre is being run, the way to deal with that is to go down, get involved and put some of the time and energy you have into making it better. This is 100% more helpful than sitting behind a computer screen anonymously and trying to get it shut down no?
We can build a world without racism, intentional or otherwise, but it is going to take a hell of a lot of hard work from everyone. For that I salute the volunteers of the Common Place as despite this minor slip up, they have done more than most people I know in the area (by a long margin) to encourage community relations across all cultural divides and to educate people about racism and the negative impact it has on our communities.
This is one slip up. Let them learn from it and make things better next time please. Also, offering to help them to do that would be ideal.
Social centre volunteer
Keep calm everyone...
24.02.2011 17:07
I'm not defending it, but they've apologised, and surely we can all calm down now and have a sensible discussion around it and the issues it raises. As for the school, and suggestions of re-education classes for people, FFS guys... some of you really are sounding like the anarchist equivalent of The Daily Mail.
Outraged of Tunbridge Wells
Shifting the blame
24.02.2011 17:34
Antifascist
Shifting the blame
24.02.2011 17:42
Antifascist
Not helping
24.02.2011 18:53
Disillusioned
Offence, hmm
24.02.2011 19:16
Romani people were dispersed (cleansed) from India in to northern Europe around 1750-1800, they have travelled ever since as they are expelled from their own Land, probably quite similar to Palestinians ousted from the state that likes to call itself Israel .
The Roma Gypsie have a strict ethical code of not causing harm to others and seek survival from traditional skills, the basic Romani rule is "you must put in what you take out".
Travellers are Southern Irish based people who generally turn their hand to whatever they require to survive, the only thing they have in common with Roma Gypsies is the fact that they travel.
I am quite sure the travellers are equally miffed.
A short course on cultural and racial awareness would teach you all you need to know.
Mark
Common Place apology? Or denial?
24.02.2011 19:23
Jock
Common Place apology? Or denial?
24.02.2011 19:23
Jock
And this
24.02.2011 19:35
Perhaps this is a case of 'not again!' at some point patience ends and the organisers of this event may have got a bit more than they usually may have reasonably expected.
People involved with any sort of event should seek a decent cross section of opinions to various projects. This not only encourages people to be involved, but also substantially lessens the opportunity for mistakes like this to happen.
...
Mark
24.02.2011 19:59
Sam Lee
Mark, you seem to be insinuating that Irish Travellers/Gypsies are......
24.02.2011 20:03
Anarchist
Fellow Travellers
24.02.2011 21:06
Old git
No big deal
24.02.2011 21:07
There are styles of music called Gypsy Punk, Gypsy Folk, etc. and who cares if the people who play it aren't "racially pure" Gypsies? It's just based on a more broad musical culture that maybe originated or was inspired by Gypsy music.
People have things like Caribbean or Irish nights all the time, attended by people who aren't Caribbean or Irish, doing culturally stereotypical Caribbean or Irish things like drinking Guinness, wearing green or dancing to reggae. This sounds like exactly the same sort of thing. No big deal at all.
I'm not a Traveller or Gypsy but if I was I can't see that I'd be offended by this at all. We have a wide range of cultures here in the UK, why can't we enjoy and share in them all instead of being precious and separatist about it?
anon
Maybe its a generational thing
24.02.2011 21:35
S
Why was my comment hidden?
24.02.2011 21:53
As far as I can see it doesn't break any Indymedia guidelines. I hate racism as much as anyone but I just don't think this is racism. I'm not a racist troll or anything, as any moderator can see by looking at my IP address and seeing my posting history.
anon
Brief response to the Common Place non-apology
24.02.2011 22:51
Caravan Club
Raising funds to help a community!!
25.02.2011 00:45
Ali
deeply shocked
25.02.2011 00:47
AF
Re-focus the picket
25.02.2011 09:53
Schnur
re GATE:
25.02.2011 10:04
You wrote:
"a few weeks ago I emailed the organisers of this event about the flyer I had seen in my local. I outlined the dreadful health status and homeless situation which Leeds Gypsies and Travellers face (a life expentency of 50) and spoke about the offence that could be caused. I got a good positive response from the organisers, who appologised. I do believe that they did not intend any offence by the title & theme of this night, ill-conceived though it clearly was."
The Commonplace bills itself as an Autonomous Radical Social Centre, and it is concerning that it did not take steps until yesterday to rectify the impression created by an event that was widely advertised as "Freakish circus sideshow acts with live music to tantilise the senses" and called "a Gypsy Nightmare".
You have confirmed that you raised concerns about this weeks ago, and thus it does not seem surprising that someone decided to write about the matter on Indymedia when no action was taken at that time. It was only after the article appeared on Indymedia that they issued public apologies and changed the name of the event. Some posters have pointed out that this still seems too little too late.
It is also concerning that some people associated with the Commonplace are still struggling to see why offence has been caused, and are seeking to shift the blame onto the person who wrote the article.
It is also worth noting that GATE LEEDS was referenced in another comment on Northern Indymedia :
Other users of Indymedia do feel strongly about the issue of Traveler evictions, and this feature appeared on the Indymedia uk front page recently:
A series of info-nights and planning meetings are being held to develop a strategy of solidarity with Dale Farm when the bailiffs move in.
I hope that GATE will consider using Indymedia to keep people informed of future evictions and events in Leeds.
Tackle racism in the movement
Hidden coments and unhidden trolls
25.02.2011 10:31
I don't understand why perfectly good comments are hidden and people who are obviously just trying to shit-stir and make us look like over-zealous and too "politically correct" get left. I wouldn't be surprised if we have trolls deliberately trying to divide and rule here.
Is it really that big a deal to have a night themed around Gypsy music and culture?
anon
GATE LEEDS
25.02.2011 10:31
Yes the name was inappropriate but it has been advertised since December and no one has ever thought anything of it because believe it or not the word 'Gypsy' is also descibed as a GENRE of music. And the word 'Nightmare' is a way of descibing something dark and imaginative. I found out that the same night was run in Liverpool last year with no problem what so ever because, maybe there the people are less bored and have more important things to target their anger at.
David.
David (repasted from Northern)
Homepage:
http://northern-indymedia.org/articles/1409#comment-361
'no big deal'
25.02.2011 10:56
Try reading the thread and working it out or else contact the moderation list if you think that the hiding of a comment which would (intentionally or unintentionally) case a furore was wrong.
If you've read the editorial guidelines then you'll know thats where complaints about moderation are dealt with.
@anon
An Axe to Grind
25.02.2011 11:39
"However I am also suspicious that some are jumping on this cause in order to have a dig at the Common Place. Where are you when our families are being evicted?"
The original poster is well known to have an axe to grind against the Common Place, that borders on the obsessive - for example, repeatedly claiming that militant anti-fascists were banned from using the building (even though the five people opposed to militant anti-fascists using the building all renounced their membership of the CP after an open meeting confirmed that AF groups are welcome to use the CP), and associating the CP with 'chav parties' which too my knowledge have never taken place there (but, ironically, have happened at a housing co-op in Leeds whose resource centre is frequently used by this individual!).
Whilst it is good that this incident has flagged up important issues about negative stereotyping, and good also to see that some Gypsy and Traveller organisations have had amicable dialogue with the event organisers, it's a pity some people don't have better things to do with their time than continue to attack a struggling social centre that, amongst other things, has been a second home for hundreds of destitue asylum seekers and refugees for many years.
Ex-commoner
Point missed again
25.02.2011 12:03
is followed by a perfect example:
"Whilst it is good that this incident has flagged up important issues about negative stereotyping, and good also to see that some Gypsy and Traveller organisations have had amicable dialogue with the event organisers, it's a pity some people don't have better things to do with their time than continue to attack a struggling social centre that, amongst other things, has been a second home for hundreds of destitue asylum seekers and refugees for many years."
As was pointed out earlier:
"Does the person from the common place really think the asylum seekers who use cc would be any less disgusted by this event than the rest of us?"
As to:
"The original poster is well known to have an axe to grind against the Common Place"
As Indymedia gives people the right to post anonymously, and as the poster used the pseudonym "No Racism at The Common Place", I can only surmise that you think you know who the original poster is.
And on the basis of that suspicion you appear to be grinding your own axe.
An attempt to ban anti-fascist groups from an 'Autonomous Radical Social Centre' was bound to create some difficulties - as was holding and publicising an event called 'a Gypsy Nightmare'.
Perhaps you should think that through.
Tackle racism in the movement
Ex-Commoner
25.02.2011 12:17
Mark Barnsley
Antifascists at the CP
25.02.2011 13:14
auntie fash
personal attack
25.02.2011 13:35
anti-racist
Leeds GATE
25.02.2011 13:38
The organisers of the event are also NOT working with GATE to create a future funding event, this is not true.
I will paste the email conversation we had about a week and a half ago below..... Representatives of GATE will be outside the venue tonight and look forward to talking to all those involved, we were unable to make the meeting last night at such short notice.
....with the last one first (obviously) here is the email conversation
Hello,
Thank you. I've had a look at the organisation, I really like the culture section and the Childrens writing and poetry and what your organisation is doing. Did you also do the TV Documentary? If you ever want us to do any gigs for you, please ask. And sorry again for offending anyone.
Yours,
Mildred
--- On Wed, 16/2/11, Claire Graham wrote:
From: Claire Graham
Subject: RE: Gypsy Nightmare
To: "Madam Laycock"
Date: Wednesday, 16 February, 2011, 9:54
Hi Mildred, thank you for your quick and honest reply. I am aware of Gypsy music and understand how yourselves have been connected with it in. Thanks for taking on the points I have raised. Here is a link that tells you a little more about the community in Leeds
Claire Graham (Advocacy Development Worker)
Leeds Gypsy and Traveller Exchange
Ground Floor, Crown Point House
169 Cross Green Lane
Leeds
LS9 0BD
Tel. 01132009042
07967679892
From: Madam Laycock [mailto:
Sent: 16 February 2011 00:16
To:
Subject: Re: Gypsy Nightmare
Hello Claire,
I'm really sorry for offending you, others and your organisation. The title or night has nothing to do with targeting the gypsy and traveller community. It's called a 'gypsy nightmare' because it's trying to describe the music we play and the other bands at the event. In the past we have been described as Gypsy Music many times in reviews.
When we named the night we just thought about this musical link and I suppose the Romanticism of Eastern Europe back in 1400's. It is a one off event to raise funds for Royal Park School and if we plan another event at a later date we will think about using a different title as we really don't want to offend anyone.
Sincerely Sorry,
Mildred
Madam Laycock and her Dabeno Pleasures
This is a link to a quick explanation of Gypsy Music,
--- On Tue, 15/2/11, Claire Graham wrote:
From: Claire Graham
Subject: Gypsy Nightmare
To:
Date: Tuesday, 15 February, 2011, 16:58
Dear Madam Laycock, Dear Common Place,
I am writing to express my anguish for a night I saw advertised in my local pub last week. I do not wish to criticise your work I am aware of the fantastic work the Common Place does and that the evening is a much needed fundraiser for Royal Park School. I do however want to express my disappointment at the way ‘Gypsy’ has been used to advertise the above night.
Leeds GATE are one of very few voluntary sector organisation across the country that work with English Gypsies and Irish Travellers (both recognized ethnic groups Race Relations Amendment Act 1996 & 2000). As you probably already know the communities are faced with daily misunderstanding and stereotype. In 2006 GATE carried out a census in Leeds with over 1000 community members which found a life expectancy of 50 years of age. The community also suffer from high infant mortality and increased mental and physical health difficulties.
We do an awful lot of work trying to get the settled population ‘on our side’ lobbying the councils and local MPs to provide sites to deal with homeless families and dispel myths.
I believe the media has a lot to answer for with regards to many of these issues and I also believe that our fellow organizations with left leanings should shoulder some of the responsibility in challenging widely held poorly informed beliefs. ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ conjures up images of the exotic, other, the outsider, dark, mysterious, even dangerous. I don’t think its appropriate. I have also shown the flyer to a few community members who would agree.
I just wanted to raise this with you for consideration before you would go ahead and organize another night.
I would also appreciate an acknowledgement of this email, perhaps with your thoughts on the matter.
Claire Graham (Advocacy Development Worker)
Leeds Gypsy and Traveller Exchange
Ground Floor, Crown Point House
169 Cross Green Lane
Leeds
LS9 0BD
Tel. 01132009042
07967679892
Claireblue
e-mail:
claire@leedsgate.co.uk
ps
25.02.2011 13:38
anti-racist
DodgyDave
25.02.2011 14:18
Not sure anyone has a problem with raising money for Royal Park school if that's what people want to do. I don't think it is suggested anywhere that anyone necessarily has a problem with that.
'Yes the name was inappropriate but it has been advertised since December'
Perhaps, i hadn't even noticed the event was on.
'and no one has ever thought anything of it'
That's a shame.
'because believe it or not the word 'Gypsy' is also descibed as a GENRE of music.'
Wouldn't have noticed if that hadn't been in capitals.
'maybe there the people are less bored and have more important things to target their anger at.'
Yeah, this is all fairly boring. In so far as challenging lazy stereotyping goes. It's very easy to dismiss people when you don't intend to do them harm, unfortunately when you don't understand the situation you'll end up doing it anyway. Still you'll apologise at the end of the day and that'll make everything alright....
ditto
Promoted comments
25.02.2011 15:09
IMCista
GATE
25.02.2011 15:45
Caravan Club
FAO Claire
25.02.2011 16:58
Leeds anti-racist
poster child
25.02.2011 17:28
Would be good to have a credible antifa presence in Leeds
read it in a day
The last straw
25.02.2011 18:01
Mark Barnsley
hey mods - please dont put up that last comment waiting to be moderated!
25.02.2011 18:12
cheers - dont think it will help anything
poster child
hey mods - please dont put up that last comment waiting to be moderated!
25.02.2011 18:13
cheers - dont think it will help anything!
poster child
hey moderators
25.02.2011 18:15
poster child
help me out?
25.02.2011 18:44
several people identifying themselves as anti-fascists on here seem very angry with the Common Place because they say it should be a social space available to all and that they have been excluded and not allowed to put events on, (though obviously other people have disputed this so I don't know if it's true or not,)
some of the same or similar people also seem to be angry at the Common Place however for allowing other types of people such as 'posh students' to use the space,
I find this contradictory and confusing, do you want the space to be open to all or not? as someone new to the scene seeing this from the outside this looks like you only want the space to be open to people you approve of and/or agree with,
I get the impression that I have a lot more in common with you guys than differences, I'm certainly no fan of posh students either, but am I to take it that if I do become involved in the Leeds activism scene and some of my views, clothes, interests stray too far from your own that you'll call for my presence in such spaces not to be tolerated either?
with regards this particular situation, I believe that some of the individuals involved have received personal threats of violence as a result of this, while I understand that people feel passionately about racism, and rightly so, passion is vital, am I to take it that if I either voice an opinion certain people don't like, or make a mistake, (being a human and therefore an imperfect creature,) that I run the risk of getting my head kicked in?
also, please could someone explain to me how any of this actually improves the lot of the Gypsy and Traveller communities in Leeds? it seems to me that words are cheap and that if people are as concerned about these communities as their passionate posts on here suggest then taking up GATE's offer of volunteering would surely be a much more effective use of time, from looking at their website my understanding is that there's no shortage of things need doing and that they always want more volunteers,
I worked with asylum seekers for several years and while I admit it was sometimes edifying to see people respond angrily against the stereotyping of asylum seekers, I never noticed this kind of action make much actual difference to the lives of the people I worked with, certainly not compared to things like preparing food parcels, taking part in befriending schemes, giving free English lessons etc.
finally, this seems like a lot of infighting between people among whom I had hoped to find new friends and allies against the tyranny of central government, regardless of the rights or wrongs of this particular situation, aren't the Tory cuts a far greater threat to the Gypsy and Traveller communities than this gig? they're already way down the list of public sector spending as it is, just look at the size of the LCC Gypsy & Travellers Team in Environments & Neighbourhoods for eg.
if the activist scene in Leeds is just this kind of bickering and internal politics what would my getting involved actually achieve? most people don't want to get involved with things that matter, they'd rather stay at home and watch TV and for the first time in my life I sad to say I begin to see why,
adam
@@anon
25.02.2011 18:51
"You can't see why 'Freakish circus sideshow acts with live music to tantilise the senses' called 'A Gypsy NIGHTMARE' is a big deal, but you do think hiding your post IS a big deal?"
I never said hiding my comment was a big deal, it just pisses me off when I take the time to make what I think is a constructive point and it just gets hidden. It's a good way to put people off contributing to Indymedia. Hiding posts isn't something you do to anyone you disagree with, it is for dealing with trolls, spam, nutters, fascists, etc. None of which I am (I hope!)
Moderation rights to Indymedia are a privilege that shouldn't be abused just for hiding genuine dissent.
So are you saying that the title "A Gypsy Nightmare" is somehow implying that Gypsies are nightmarish? I don't think it means anything of the sort, that is a complete misunderstanding of what this was about. It's just referring to the fact that travelling circuses in days gone past used to have freakish sideshows that might have given people nightmares!
I have no connection to any of the parties here but it seems to me like a celebration of Gypsy music and culture. Culture and music should be shared by everyone, not kept for an exclusive club who can claim "racial purity" as a right to use it.
In a time when there are so many genuine attacks on minorities like Travellers and Gypsies it seems like this is just an opportunity taken by someone with an axe to grind to attack this venue.
anon
I'm not trolling but ....
25.02.2011 19:08
The place it will be seen is on the moderation list, which is a publicly archived list. Why are you not posting there?
Have you read the thread?
Why, if there is nothing wrong with the way the evening was advertised, do you think Claireblue wrote the following:?:
"I am writing to express my anguish for a night I saw advertised in my local pub last week ....‘Gypsy Nightmare’ conjures up images of the exotic, other, the outsider, dark, mysterious, even dangerous. I don’t think its appropriate. I have also shown the flyer to a few community members who would agree."
The fact that you don't find it offensive does not mean that it isn't offensive to others. Nor does it make it news.
If you still feel that it IS a big deal then please take it to the list.
@anon
Support
25.02.2011 19:31
GetagripAdam
Help me out adam
25.02.2011 19:52
"I've had an interest I anarchism for many years and am keen to become more involved in actual activism in Leeds" and also ask"if the activist scene in Leeds is just this kind of bickering and internal politics what would my getting involved actually achieve?"
But you also say:
"with regards this particular situation, I believe that some of the individuals involved have received personal threats of violence as a result of this"
Where did you, as someone considering getting involved, get this information from? Either you made it up, or you are already well enough involved in the Leed's activist scene to know people from CP. Either way it appears as if you're another of the 'axe to grind' brigade. seemingly with an interest in diverting the thread way from the original issue.
Why don't you turn up at the demo tomorrow night and ask the people there these questions?
paresthesias
Adam
25.02.2011 20:03
@
@ paresthesias
25.02.2011 20:18
I haven't been involved in this scene before now but I do have friends who have been which is how I heard about this thread in the first place,
the issue of threats was something I was told about, (ie. 2nd hand info,) but it came from people I trust so I currently have no reason not to believe it, if you know of something that disproves that then I'd be very glad to hear about it,
I'll certainly be there tomorrow night and would love to discuss these issues further with you and/or anyone else who's there,
the questions in my post above are genuine and I really would like to hear people's answers to them so as to understand all this better, I'm an open minded guy and always happy to listen to and consider other people's opinions, I look forward to meeting you and hearing what you have to say,
adam
Adam 2
25.02.2011 20:41
@
planks
25.02.2011 21:17
concerned of gipton
Attn adam
25.02.2011 21:23
Hans
Dirty tricks
25.02.2011 21:43
Against racism
UK indymedia
25.02.2011 22:00
fear
GATE
25.02.2011 23:09
Leeds Lad
Good Fucking Riddance!
25.02.2011 23:26
Leeds anti-racist
If this event has been cancelled...
25.02.2011 23:45
Mark Barnsley
'Complications'?
26.02.2011 01:11
Oops!
decisions, decisions
26.02.2011 09:42
Anarchist
A moral victory
26.02.2011 10:30
26+6
Good
26.02.2011 11:41
Nod
Still trying to shift the blame?
26.02.2011 11:49
What is now known is that GATE emailed
"I also believe that our fellow organizations with left leanings should shoulder some of the responsibility in challenging widely held poorly informed beliefs. ‘Gypsy Nightmare’ conjures up images of the exotic, other, the outsider, dark, mysterious, even dangerous. I don’t think its appropriate. I have also shown the flyer to a few community members who would agree."
That should surely have been enough to set the alarm bells ringing!
It is good that you acknowledge that CP 'fucked up' but it isn't on to try and make others responsible for this.
As to whoever misrepresented the GATE position at the meeting, such outrageous behaviour should not have fooled CP, who should have organised a meeting immediately when it received the email on the 15th, and GATE should have been invited at that stage.
It is CP who appears to have left things to the last minute, and it really is time for CP to take full responsibility for that.
Tackle racism in the movement
Ditto
26.02.2011 12:29
Anti-racist
Ditto
26.02.2011 13:01
Anti-racist
if only
26.02.2011 13:02
me
Stereotyping
26.02.2011 13:09
Anti-Gypsy/Traveller prejudice is widespread in this society and pretty much unchecked. That the supporters of the Common Place appear willing to treat the matter as being of minor importance, whilst putting most of their energy into attempts to vilify the anti-racists who raised the matter, suggests that there is still some way to go in resolving the issue satisfactorily.
I'm not sure if Ex C thinks that there is such as a thing as 'positive stereoetyping' but it did cause me to remember an article by Rachel Morris which looked at how anti-Traveller prejudice is transmitted by the media .
The article is available as a PDF at www.law.cf.ac.uk/tlru/Tolleys.pdf.
I found the part below helpful in thinking through my own stereotyping process:
Stereotyping
‘Like fictions, they are created to serve as substitutions, standing in for what is real. They are there not to tell it like it is but to invite and encourage pretence. They are a fantasy, a projection onto the Other that makes them less threatening. Stereotypes abound when there is a distance. They are an invention, a pretence that one knows when the steps that would make real knowing possible cannot be taken or are not allowed.’15
Stereotyping is a potentially negative product of a standard mental process carried out by all humans and many animals: categorisation. We need to categorise from a very early age: which foods do I like / not like? In which environments do I feel safe / in danger? By dividing people or things into groups based on certain perceived characteristics and then creating a hierarchy of preferences to which we adapt our behaviour, we learn to find our way around a complex and occasionally dangerous world. But while useful as a means of simplifying complex things and people, stereotyping is problematic when used by adults to simplify and therefore more easily deal with things of which they are afraid and lack knowledge. If everything they read about the object of their fears and ignorance (from childhood books to adulthood newspapers) simply confirms their reductive assumptions, they are encouraged to continue in this simplistic and sometimes prejudicial thinking. Therein lies a major root of social exclusion.
Stereotypes stem from not just categorisation but evaluation of those being stereotyped. Even if there is a grain of truth in a stereotype, it may only apply to one person or a few members in a group but may disproportionately and dramatically disadvantage the whole. Yet stereotypes are difficult to get rid of as they are deeply rooted in socialisation and thought processes, and their very nature means, their strength relies on the fact that the features of the stereotyped are assumed to be fixed by nature.
Being stereotyped as, for example, ‘the typical academic’ (male, white, middle-aged) can be negative for those people who might have more difficulties being taken seriously and advancing in an academic career as a result of not fitting it. But while such difficulties can affect the path of their life, it is unlikely that they could affect their very way of life. The stereotypes moulded on Travellers lead to constant eviction, harassment, school exclusions and prejudice of an intensity bordering on hatred. ‘Negative attitudes frequently manifest themselves in the refusal to admit Travelling children or in delay or the imposition of difficult or discriminatory conditions. In some cases, threats and acts of physical violence by members of the settled community have been sufficient to deter Gypsy parents from placing their children in school’.16
The ‘typical’ Traveller?
So what are the stereotypes which play such a powerful role in propagating prejudice against Gypsies and other Travellers? Most racism consists of reducing a particular racial group to particular, stereotyped, representations. Often ‘people who are in any way significantly different from the majority – ‘them’ rather than ‘us’ – are frequently exposed to this binary form of representation. They seem to be represented through sharply opposed, polarized, binary extremes – good/bad, civilized/primitive, ugly/excessively attractive, repelling-because-different/compelling-because- strange-and-exotic. And they are often required to be both things at the same time!’.17
Travellers are in an interesting position in this respect. Unusually and often the main complaint to be found regarding Gypsies is that they do not fit the stereotype that has been carved out for them: the ‘true’ Gypsy. That they do not fit this stereotype is used to justify hatred of them and to deny them rights and access to goods and services. This ‘true, good Gypsy’ stereotype is the ‘positive’ branch, whereby they are seen as mysterious, darkly beautiful and sultry, spiritual in a naturalist fashion, fortune tellers in touch somehow with other times and dimensions, bestowing luck or curses as the mood takes them, all flashing jewellery and brightly coloured clothes and scarves (both men and women), leading a free and carefree and varied and above all romantic life which is tantalising for but unattainable by settled folk.
‘The settled population is generally intolerant of contacts and relations with nomads ... The further away the nomad is the better. When the gypsies are so far away that they verge on myth, they suddenly become alluring: handsome, artistic, living untram- melled lives, symbols of freedom’.18
This picture of Gypsies, of the ‘Romany Rye’, can be found in art and literature and music, from Austen to Van Gogh, from Bizet to Modigliani. It is for this reason that I am able to present what should be a familiar picture purely from imagination, from ‘memory’. For I too was fed on these images from a young age. What I have come to realise from my experience with reality is that these representations bear no more (and no less) of a relationship with actual Travellers than with settled people. Some are spiritual, some are sultry, some are beautiful, few could be described as carefree.19 Whatever the images may be they are not the products of memory but of imagination. Settled people draw on ‘memory’ to decide who does and does not constitute a ‘real’ and therefore marginally more acceptable Gypsy.
‘Josephine Doherty, a member of one of Britains’s [sic] last true Romany families, had dreamed of a fairy tale wedding. So her relatives organised an event fit for a princess ‘.20
It is a very real difficulty in the representation of Travellers that, as previously mentioned, few members of the press actually take the trouble to meet or talk to Travellers in constructing news stories about them. (It is a given that the person constructing the representation is more likely to faith- fully portray a person or experience with which or with whom they have had direct experience).21 So they have only their ‘memories’ to draw on. Many of these ‘memories’ consist of the other, more ‘negative’ stereotype. It is more commonly found in the press because Travellers seem to be assumed to more closely fit this type and are then penalised for not conforming to the positive construct, the ‘good’ Gypsy.
The ‘bad’ Gypsy is dirty, thieving, surviving on wits rather than skill and so necessarily living outside the mores and laws of settled society, providing a low standard of goods and services to settled people and then using nomad- ism to ‘slip the net’ of the law, scrounging and parasitic, living off the scraps and through the loopholes of settled society and taking it for what he or she can get, leaving disgusting piles of human and industrial waste on every piece of land on which he or she has settled, potentially violent, creating expense, fear and conflict by their very nature. This aspect of the so-called Gypsy character is so firmly held by settled people that ‘to gyp’ has come to mean ‘to be cheated’, as in ‘I’ve been gypped’.
Whichever stereotype is employed, or whether one is set against the other, they constitute what Barthes 22 would call a ‘cultural myth’, albeit a pervading one. To bluntly divide Gypsies into two ‘types’ and then punish them for being one and not the other may have developed as a device to combat feelings of fear and ignorance, but it can only lead to an increase in those fears among settled people and between the settled and Traveller communities. Travellers have become a sub-class because they have been placed there by another culture which fears them.
By creating categories into which we expect the world to fit neatly, we create a false and tidy world out of which some things and some people might step and transgress our contrived boundaries. Those things and people must then be stigmatised and discontinued if we are to feel safe and orderly, because they do not fit neatly into society as we like to see it. Foreigners do not fit unless they are money-spending tourists; otherwise they are asylum-seekers. Travellers do not fit because they are assumed to be nomadic, although they often move because they are forced to so by police and local authorities; and may be no more nomadic than the modern businessperson. Sometimes these ‘others’, these ‘unfitted’ people, are both foreigners and Travellers. Suffice it to say that these ‘others’ become both despised and desired, humans being drawn to that which is threatening or taboo.
It is not difficult, then, to see why and how the media plays a role in promulgating these ancient images and thus reinforcing the position of Travellers as perhaps the most maligned of minorities in Britain and in Europe. The ‘difference’ element makes good copy, makes stories that stand out from the ordinary, that always sell and stir up emotions. The plethora of stereotypes around Travellers provides writers with rich imagery and ‘hooks’ upon which they can hang a story, and readership sympathies upon which they can draw.
‘Residents quiz council – who’s moving into empty homes? ‘‘We don’t want gipsies next door’’’23
The way that Travellers are treated by society puts them into positions which tally with common views of them, lending a patina of ‘truth’ and ‘objectivity’ to the press representa- tions. For example, it is easy to sell the ‘dirty Gypsy’ image when societal dislike of Gypsies forces them to live on the margins of society, under motorways, next to sewage plants and railway lines, where no-one else wishes to live. The problems of access to health, education and stability, of over-policing, and of lack of access to land that many Travellers experience is rarely portrayed.
15. bell hooks (1992) Black Looks: Race and Representation, South End, Boston, p. 170.
16. Office for Standards in Education (Ofsted) [1996] The Education of Travelling Children: A Report from
the Office of Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Schools, reference HMR/ 12/96/NS, p. 10.
17. Stuart Hall, editor (1997) Representation: Cultural Representations and Signifying Practices, The Open
University, Milton Keynes, p. 229.
18. J-P Liegeois (1986) Gypsies: An Illustrated History, Al-Saqi, London.
19. Their very way of life is now subject to criminalisation under the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act
1994.
20. Now magazine, 25 July 1998.
21. Oscar Gandy (1998) Communication & Race: A Structural Perspective, Arnold, London, p. 97.
22. Roland Barthes (1972) Mythologies, Cape, London, pp. 114-5.
23. The Biggleswade Chronicle, Friday 16 May 1997
Tackle racism in the movement
Homepage:
http://www.law.cf.ac.uk/tlru/Tolleys.pdf.
Common Place
26.02.2011 13:33
CAM
Come clean
26.02.2011 14:15
Antifascist
Stop dodging the issue
26.02.2011 17:59
Granny Smith
The Common Place
26.02.2011 18:46
A N Other
OK, deep breath everyone...
26.02.2011 19:24
I think the naming of the night and the general tone of it is fucked up. It trades off, and plays upto, a crap cliche of some elements of Gypsy and Traveller (or whatever people would rather call it) culture. It isn't however (deep breath everyone...), what I consider racist, and as a note, neither do any of the Gypsys or Travellers that have written comments here call it racist either. (Doesn't mean it isn't, just that maybe it needs explaining and discussing for some of us to be convinced).
I do think it's cultural appropriation though, that is, picking and choosing elements of a culture (not a race, of which Gypsy/Travellers aren't) to steal and use for your own ends. It's common, especially within the music scene (rap or hip-hop anyone?) of which this gig is a part of. It doesn't mean I think it's right, or an acceptable thing for radicals to do uncritically, but I think all the aggressive shouting about racism is mistaken and misplaced, and to be honest, just makes you/us look a bit obsessed, and with a grudge against The Common Place, who at worst I think have been a bit stupid and slow to sort it out.
I think some of the people posting here are either posting multiple posts under different names, or they've whipped up some frenzy of pure anti-racist thoughts amongst people. Either way, some of the attitudes are a little scary... bordering on some kind of anti-racist thought police, rather than any reasoned discussion or thought about it. On top if that I think the attitudes towards The Common Place, the people involved in it, and some of the people that put the gig on and the band/s, are full of bitter and bullying hatred that I think is unjustified and has less to do about this issue and more to do with a history and peoples personal grudges.
There is also an element of bulling around this, conducted by a few big, scary people in the scene. Shouting the loudest doesn't mean you're right, and just calling everyone who disagress with you a racist or an apologist for racism is a pretty lazy and stupid way to have a discussion. And please don't just shout "Well it's obvious it's racist! We don't need to explain it!" Well, actually I don't think it is so fucking obvious, and lots of people (including me) do need it explaining, so let's have the discussion. Threatening violence to people in the scene over this is, I think, pretty fucking inexcusable, and, IMO, more dodgy than the actual event itself.
Related to this, but as a slight sideline, I think there's a worrying line in the anarchist/activist scene which if you question some 'truth' you get bullied/shouted down. Anything that doesn't immediately fit into the leftist mould of agreeing uncritically with the party line on racism/sexism etc. gets slagged off pretty brutally. Understandable maybe given our history of dealing wiht these issues in our movement, but it's a slippery slope down into some paralysed scene where ideology rules over indepedent thought, and that's a place I don't want us to end up - some strange morphing of a rich, critically thinking, and questioning scene into a pathetic caricature of the worst aspects of the PC language dominated left.
I'm totally happy to hold my hands up and say that I might be completely off the mark here, and if people want to convince me that I'm either a racist or an apologist for one too, then please go ahead, I'll seriously listen and change my views if you convince me otherwise. Until then please let's stop calling the band a 'Nazi marching band and the dancers goose stepping brown shirts' - it makes you, and us all, look a bit stupid and obscures the real issues.
Waiting for the threats and slag-offs...
CP
26.02.2011 19:39
Pat
Threats?!
26.02.2011 20:08
Antifascist
So obvious
26.02.2011 20:24
anon
re: Waiting for the threats and slag-offs...
26.02.2011 20:24
You say:
"I do think it's cultural appropriation though, that is, picking and choosing elements of a culture (not a race, of which Gypsy/Travellers aren't) to steal and use for your own ends."
Worth noting is that GATE says this on their site:
"Roma, Romany Gypsies and Irish Travellers are now all recognised to have protection under the Race Relations Act as they have been finally recognised as minority ethnic communities in law."
You then say:
"It's common, especially within the music scene (rap or hip-hop anyone?) of which this gig is a part of. It doesn't mean I think it's right, or an acceptable thing for radicals to do uncritically, but I think all the aggressive shouting about racism is mistaken and misplaced, and to be honest, just makes you/us look a bit obsessed, and with a grudge against The Common Place, who at worst I think have been a bit stupid and slow to sort it out."
Consider this response from a poster on another site, responding to Madam Laycock's apology:
"What is a problem is relating the word gypsy to a negative word like nightmare and using racist stereotypes to wacky up your advertising.
It wasn't the right wing, gypsy and traveller-hating press that were having a go at you for this night - it was gyspies and travellers. The 'current climate' is one of segregation, expulsion and NIMBYish. By using the word nightmare, all you did was encourage the current climate as purported by the likes of Sarkozy, Berlusconi and our own dear councils in the UK. Brava."
and:
"In your post on the other site, you claim you were inspired by "Romanticism of Eastern Europe back in 1400s". You're talking about a race of people who live amongst us today, not some historical fancy."
Consider today's headline from the Daily Star:
BIG FAT GYPSY DWARF, in an article which tells us that:
"Channel 4 is keen to capitalise on the success of its hit traveller programme with more looks at oddball Britain."
and think about the publicity for this event: "Freakish circus sideshow acts with live music to tantilise the senses" along with this: "Dress to impress - prizes for the best freaks" and tell us where you see a significant difference in approach. Because I can't.
Which is why I am struggling to accept that the ' aggressive shouting about racism is mistaken and misplaced' - I don't understand why it wasn't immediately clear to people that this had the potential to offend, that it played into the dominant prejudicial attitude towards Travellers, and that an 'Autonomous Radical Social Centre' could in no way be seen to condone this.
Consider the email from Claireblue on 15th February, and the complete inaction that followed. Nine days later this rather more forthright article was published, and only then was the name changed, a meeting called, and the event cancelled (after it turned out that someone misrepresented GATEs position).
Having missed the implications in the first place, CP seemed to miss them again, even when they were spelt out in an email from GATE. It was only when presented with a more forthright approach, and a threat of a picket of the event that they took steps to deal with the matter. It does seem to me that it wouldn't have got to that if they'd responded appropriately in the first place.
Tackle racism in the movement
What a hypocrite
26.02.2011 20:39
Stop trying to shift the blame
Hypocrites
26.02.2011 21:00
Leeds anti-racist
Mixed feelings
26.02.2011 21:17
Craig
help
26.02.2011 22:26
Non of this is relevant however, the argument here is racism is racism, and to argue against anyone calling racism is to become a racist apologist or racist, an unwinnable argument. I know this post will get eagerly ripped apart.
The Common Place should really have been aware of all this earlier and acted sooner - there's not much excuse there.
So what to learn ...
I know a little bit more about the effects of discrimination faced by the Gypsy and Traveller community. Leeds GATE is an amazing organisation and a lot more people know about it.
And well all this played into the hands of the cops, it gave something they wanted, more excuses to put pressure on the Common Place - enquiries about an event with the 'potential for violence' and a yet another licensing visit.
I'd like to respond to a comment from someone claiming to be a member of another social centre, something along the lines of 'how very very very wrong the politics of the common place have become' - Well we really fucked up... but I'd like to be part of a community where you can fuck up, and learn and not be endlessly punished for that. I'm suspicious that this person really is from another SC however, mainly because they seem to suggest it's relatively easy for projects like Common Conversation to find a home. It's not - the degree of shared ownership and participation is really important and autonomous spaces are really good at avoiding patronising service provision. There is very little public space in Leeds and it's decreasing all the time, the Common Place is the only independent community space in the city centre.
I still have hopes for a Leeds social centre - owned preferably , somewhere that fosters an open and creative politics and somehow avoids becoming institutionalised, even plays a role in real social struggles which is fanciful and an SC that is sustainable. And is a cheap and useful place you'd want to go in the day time and meet people as well as fun evening events ...radical bookshop, cafe etc bar venue and all the rest ..blah blah. Sorry losing the thread but it would be good if people could put energy into this.
zywiec
Just a fiasco?
26.02.2011 22:42
Politically Correct
Briefly
26.02.2011 23:00
Okocim
Zywiec
26.02.2011 23:31
Getagrip
IMC
26.02.2011 23:39
Poster
IMC
26.02.2011 23:41
Poster
Promoted one comment
26.02.2011 23:54
IMCista
Seems pretty obvious to me
27.02.2011 00:12
Acts like a racist, talks like a racist, probably IS a racist
"we hope to work closely with the promoters in the future"!!!
27.02.2011 00:36
Gobsmacked
Additions
27.02.2011 00:52
Poster
59 done
27.02.2011 01:05
IMCista
Laycock's Lies
27.02.2011 01:20
Pants On Fire
Forgetting to breathe
27.02.2011 01:46
Is it just me?
Antifascist: contact me to talk about this
27.02.2011 08:59
"26.02.2011 14:15
Come on Dave, just admit it, you thought this was all about 'political correctness' just as you excused the racism of the bloke ranting about 'pakis' and 'foreigners' at the EF! Gathering the other year as 'a generational thing'. You've got a good heart but FFS start buying a better class of newspaper.
Antifascist "
Correct, initially I did think it was all about political correctness & thought police stuff and I was wrong but to say I excused the racism of that bloke is a fucking lie. There is no excuse for racism. No ifs, No buts. I was the one at the gate to 'pull him on it' and stop him. I never heard him say anything wrong after that. You do anti racism your way, I do it mine but I do not excuse people for racism!
Dave
GPD
Please put your hackles in
27.02.2011 10:17
Trying 2 b helpful
GPD
27.02.2011 11:29
Antifascist (not the only one on this thread)
Gypsies outdone in persecution
27.02.2011 13:34
Getagrip
The reality of the Common Place
27.02.2011 16:55
Common as muck
common as muck
27.02.2011 20:51
However, it's always been democratic and actively anti-authoritarian and it's been very politically productive in it's own way.
Mismanaged?.. the £15,000 debt comes from from appealing the withdrawl of it's members license following police raids, this coming after the departure of Lynn Watson and the showing of 'on the verge' the smash EDO film. Seems a bit unfair to be blamed for that.
People have been meeting to try and buy somewhere in Leeds for a couple of years now. The Sumac, Cowley and 1 in 12 are all owned. Help em out!
tyskie
Tyskie
27.02.2011 23:28
RALMAO
Hang on a minute Robespiere, are you having a laugh?
04.03.2011 04:13
Does he or she mean that Working Class Eastern Europeans are incapable of being racist? Especially towards Gypsy people? Really? Where do the words Ghetto and Pogrom come from then mush? Ever heard of the Ukrainian SS, Latvian SS, Polish White Army? Hungarian Iron Cross?
Or is he / she using the fact that the musicians are Working Class and from Eastern Europe as a way of saying that Robespiere's political credentials are beyond reproach? "look everybody! I know some poor foreigners, I can't possibly be racist."
Either way it's bloody lousy and indicative of the lazy smug thinking of too many of the Common Place crew. Big love to the decent people there who have done such good work with refugees etc, but we can't and will not ignore the self satisfied ponces who are responsible for this.
And the frighteningly self serving abuse of the name and reputation of GATE is just unbelievable. I have worked with them occasionally for years past and a nicer , braver and more honest (small) group of people you could not wish to meet, they walk a razors edge that few of the self satisfied gap year revolutionaries resposible for this could ever know, and to treat them like this is obscene.
And now the Robespiere, the poor lamb is feeling persecuted? Oy.
Try getting out of your recycled ivory substitute tower kid, and see what real persecution is. Then you might just understand what a real Gypsy's nightmare consists of.
Bod Green
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