Get off your moralistic high horse. Unlawful tactics have been used successfully throughout history including for women's rights, civil rights and a ban on human slavery. Activists need to unite as one, no more divisive rubbish. If you want to be lawful do so but don't condemn tactics used by others.

@(A) - We truly understand the frustration of violent animal rights activists and their aims. I personally support any individual which protects animals by any means - lawful or unlawful. The group, however, is based on pacifism and our working relationship with the Police has proved successful in combating animal cruelty at domestic properties in the past and thus is why we are concentrating on lawful nonviolent direct action.

I hope I have cleared up the issue at hand.

Yours sincerely,

Jake Knight,
Group Co-ordinator.

...anything to do with radical politics? Surely it's just some animal welfare NGO?

"...our working relationship with the Police..."

You are not likely to get anywhere in having a "working relationship with the Police"...

We can't let this badgering for reasons of personal pride continue or we just descend into a tyranny of the most extreme

So lets get this right - All of the violent AR campaigns have failed, crushed by a vengeful government, stung by criticism from big pharma. The campaigns made this happen by their tactics, allowing the complicit press to paint them as cranks and loonies.

If this new group wants to try another way, why not let it?

You may be afraid that they may succeed where you failed and this will make your sacrifice look meaningless - so what, rise above your pride - for the animals.

Calling political criticisms personal ones is both dishonest and lame, so lay off it. There are both good criticisms, both of this 'campaign' and the AR scene as a whole, and their relevance to any sort of radical politics.

Personally, I think animal rights/welfare is some largely western, urban fad, that's only possible due to extreme alienation from nature and industrialised agriculture, and is actually very unhealthy. And veganism is one part cult, one part eating disorder (thanks LK!).

 http://www.lierrekeith.com/vegmyth.htm

Not sure how you work that one out, seeing as vast swathes of India and other places in the Far East have been vegetarian or vegan for thousands of years...

It's kind of irrelevant anyway - it doesn't really matter if you think an idea is new or faddish or cultish - inflicting suffering on sentient beings is obviously not a good thing, so we should avoid doing it where possible.

I think it is your alienation from other animals that causes you to lose sight of the fact that they are individuals capable of suffering, and to treat them as disposable "consumer items". Hardly a radical viewpoint.

And to Jake: I'm not opposed to criminal acts in defence of animals, and I'm not a pacifist, but I wish you good luck with the campaign. We need groups with all sorts of tactics in the struggle against animal abuse.

Nobody is defending random cruelty to animals, but that's a long way from that and thinking that you shouldn't eat animals or animal produce at all. FWIW it's impossible to survive (especially in Northern Europe) on a vegan diet without capitalism and industry, therefore rearing and hunting animals for food use is fine by me if done in an eco-way, and doesn't need to be either cruel or on a mass scale.

Unless you think it's ALWAYS wrong to harm an animal at any point, in which case I think you're living in a deluded world where not only do you condemn most of the world to a death due to starvation and the wiping out of any of the indigenous cultures that are left; but you should give up your tofu and hyper-processed industrial food, as that obviously results in lots more animal death in it's production than raising and killing a pig, for example.

Basically what you eat is largely an irrelevance, as are all lifestyle choices under capitalism. Constructing any political movement around diet/dress/living in a yurt/whether you fly or drive or cycle etc. is just a fucked up, counter cultural and weird thing to do, and never has, and never will, lead to meaningful social change.

I stand by my urban, largely western, and will add due to poverty and religious dogma for your benefit to cover India etc.

So I assume you never eat factory-farmed animals? That is surely far worse than "random cruelty", it is institutionalised torture. And it sounds like it would be a "lifestyle choice" on your part too! ;-)

I think it is ALWAYS right to avoid causing harm to sentient beings where possible. That obviously includes not killing them to eat.

As for the eco argument, virtually all meat in this country is grown with the use of vast quantities of crops fed to animals, which would be far more efficient if the land was used to grow crops directly for human consumption. I assume you live off roadkill and animals you catch in the wild with your bare hands?!

You have a very romanticised view of "indigenous cultures". Face it, the world changes, cultures change. They aren't quaint olde worlde folk to be kept pickled at the same stage for ever for you to coo over. And most indigenous people eat very little meat compared to developed countries like the UK.

Lifestyle choices on their own will never defeat capitalism, true, but I'm not advocating that. Are you from the champagne socialist school of thought where living in a mansion and ripping people off are fine, as long as you are a theoretical socialist, because to do otherwise would be a "lifestyle choice"? WTF?

I know socialists are often often traditionalists, but anarchism is often associated with animal liberation, and EVERYTHING is seen as political, even the personal.

What is your recipe for meaningful social change? We all continue exactly as we are, disempowered, and vote for your glorious vanguard Party that will sweep to power and create a utopia for us to live in? Thanks, but no thanks. For me the revolution starts now.

And I would say religious dogma is what is used to justify eating meat in places like India and elsewhere. The God-given right to superiority and dominion. Not the other way round. It's basic human decency to avoid harming animals.

Yeah, I do sometimes eat animal produce, shock... even some I bought from a supermarket like a dirty working class person who hasn't seen the vegan light, and fuck feeling guilty for that! I have also grown veggies, gathered wild foods and hunted for the pot in the past, and intend to again. All worthwhile things to do, but not that relevant to having a radical political movement.

Not sure where you dug up the rubbish about parties, vanguards or socialists... I've been an active anarchist for 20 years mate, who just thinks that diet based politics is a bit odd, as do most people.

Your ideas about what constitutes radical politics seem pretty strange, eating meat is in no way equivalent to living in "a mansion and ripping people off" is it now?

Do some research about the oft quoted vegan 'fact' about area of food to produce meat. That's for industrial farming (which I in no way support), but outside of that generally animals can be fed food/scraps and grazed on land that can't be used to produce food for us, which I think is OK.

Your comments on indigenous cultures are just too dodgy to be believed... try saying "The world changes. Cultures change" to AIM or Bougainville Revolutionary Army folks (or any number or radical militant indigenous groups fighting for survival), neither of whom are vegan. Does this mean you support them being wiped out? And if not, why not, since you seem to believe that eating meat makes you the enemy?

As for your lifestyle dietary choices, yeah trying to lessen your impact is a fine thing to do (although reducing it to vegan or not is erronenous at best) but it's just that - A PERSONAL CHOICE - not something that leads to a movement or collective struggle, which is what we need to overthrow the state, capitalism and this destructive civilisation.

Arguing with vegans is like arguing with Christians. Ideologically blinded by faith based dogma. We're an animal. We need to eat things. Eating things involves death. When we die (or maybe before if you live in an area where industrial agrculture hasn't killed all the big predators) we get eaten to. It's part of the way the world works.

What's the difference between a lion hunting an antelope to eat, and us hunting a deer? Unless you want all death to stop, in which case I say you're certifiable - like some mad vegans I've come across.

FW

Are you seriously saying eating any meat is worse than systematically torturing a dog? Are you mad? How do you survive amongst all us meat eating (sorry I mean animal torturing) people everyday without going mental.... oh wait... you don't...

Vegan,

Well done, friend! I,m on your side. Trouble is, all of you are distorting one major important fact! That's the word "... killed" for human consumption. It's murdered, not killed! Get it? Murdered, having their precious one and only body (life) extirpated!!!! The meat eaters don't care a shit, Vegan. As long as their life isn't extirpated, eh?

What's the difference between a lion hunting an antelope to eat, and us hunting a deer?

The difference is that humans do it for one reason-their taste buds. Try chasing a deer-can't do it. Try biting a deer-can't get through that skin. That's because we are not designed to hunt and eat flesh. We now use our "intelligence" to murder and consume other beings because we like the taste. We also use this "intelligence" to make and detonate nuclear bombs.

anonymous heroes of compassion

Diversity of tactics, small, local commumity based groups operating with consensus and how they want to operate is brilliant. Those of us who are "naughtier" can do other things, there are enough targets for everyone.

Jane: "Are you seriously saying eating any meat is worse than systematically torturing a dog?"

I'm not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse, but I'm saying the global factory farming industry that kills millions of animals every hour in horrific conditions, cooping them up in tiny filthy cages in windowless sheds, using partially automated killing systems that often malfunction, etc., is far worse than a handful of nutters who deliberately torture some dog for kicks.

Have you never heard the idea of institutionalised cruelty (to humans or non-humans) being far worse than random acts of cruelty? The differences are: the scale of the thing, and the fact that it has been "normalised" and accepted by society.

Honestly, it makes me shudder sometimes to think of the callousness of some people who comment here and their indifference to animal suffering. Not pleasant people.

"I've been an active anarchist for 20 years mate, who just thinks that diet based politics is a bit odd"

It's not about diet, it's just about living without exploiting other sentient beings. If you like, it is non-exploitation-based politics. Which is the same idea behind most left/anarchist/radical politics. Veganism is just a consequence of that.

"Your ideas about what constitutes radical politics seem pretty strange, eating meat is in no way equivalent to living in "a mansion and ripping people off" is it now?"

No, because that clearly isn't what I'm saying. The point was that your lifestyle is a part of your political beliefs, unless you are a hypocrite. You were saying lifestyle was irrelevant, i.e. it is OK to have a lifestyle that totally contradicts your political beliefs. I'm saying that is nonsense and the sort of thing that champagne socialists do. Non-exploitation of animals is a part of my political beliefs, therefore being vegan shouldn't be dismissed as just "lifestylism", it is just me putting my ideas into practice and not being a hypocrite. Likewise, if you oppose industrialised animal production, it shouldn't be dismissed as mere lifestylism for you to avoid those products.

"try saying "The world changes. Cultures change" to AIM or Bougainville Revolutionary Army folks (or any number or radical militant indigenous groups fighting for survival), neither of whom are vegan. Does this mean you support them being wiped out? And if not, why not, since you seem to believe that eating meat makes you the enemy?"

Seeing how I explicitly said that these groups eat far less meat than cultures like the UK, then clearly not. The various cultures I come from have a history of meat-eating, which I think can change. They also have a history of misogyny, homophobia, racism, etc. which can also change over time. I'm sure there are just as many compassionate people in other cultures who are wanting to see an end to animal abuse there too. I think it is totally right for me to work with them so we can help each other in this.

"trying to lessen your impact is a fine thing to do (although reducing it to vegan or not is erronenous at best) but it's just that - A PERSONAL CHOICE - not something that leads to a movement or collective struggle,"

I think denying animals their freedom is wrong, just as I think racism, sexism, homophobia is wrong. Should I say being non-racist etc. is just "a personal choice" too? These are all part of my belief system, so they are either all personal choices, or none are personal choices. And although there is a "movement" I'm not saying veganism should be the ONLY movement. Clearly things like the anti-racist movement, the anti-sexist movement, etc. aren't going to overthrow the state on their own either, but that doesn't make them pointless things.

"Arguing with vegans is like arguing with Christians. Ideologically blinded by faith based dogma. We're an animal. We need to eat things. Eating things involves death."

I have no spiritual faith at all. I can just as well say meat-eaters are blinded by faith-based dogma. I'm vegan for reasons of pure logic and wanting to avoid being responsible for the suffering of other sentient beings.

We need to eat things, and that involves death, sure, but why not involve the death of things like fruit and vegetables which don't have central nervous systems and developed brains?

"What's the difference between a lion hunting an antelope to eat, and us hunting a deer?"

Good question - the answer is that lion does it through instinct and necessity (they are carnivores, we are omnivores). We have a rational brain that can override instinct, and we don't need to eat meat to survive.

Animals do many things that are unpleasant e.g. rape, cannibalism, eating their own shit, etc. That doesn't mean we should do the same.