I'm English. And it sounds like you have got a problem with that for some reason!?

Well fuck off if you don't like me because of where I'm born. I'm proud to be English and yes I'm a patriot in that I give a shit about the country and the people in it. If you think that makes me a fascist then you are a dickhead.

I really struggle to understand why people who don't like England don't just move. You can go anywhere in Europe, why stop here and be miserable?

I don't think we should allow other people to make our definitions for us. I admire people like Harry Patch - and he was British, and spoke out against the madness of war having experienced it as a soldier. I admire the way ordinary English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish people have a long tradition of rebellion against the ruling classes. In spite of a history of massacre slaughter and repression by their rulers, they still fight back.
I think it is great that so many people in this country of all different nationalities care about what happens to people elsewhere. But I also understand that these qualities can be found in people of other nationalities and from other countries.

At the same time I see other people who cloak the most appalling actions behind the excuse of "necessity of the state", or wrap it in a national flag - the Chilean "patriots" who organized the death squads after Pinochet's coup, or the Russian "patriots" who ran Stalin's gulag.

Accepting something simply because its got a little national flag stuck on it is a poor way to make a decision. To start with who stuck the flag on it? and why? National flags often get stuck on actions as a way of stifling debate about the consequences. Afghanistan is a good example - and what happens when the little national flag gets stuck on a Quisling, or hides manipulation of events - like the "international" task forces in Afghanistan or Iraq.

George Orwell said that the difference between a nationalist and a patriot is that a patriot is proud of his country and likes it, whereas a nationalist never has anything good to say about where he comes from.( I couldn’t find the exact quote.)

I think the mix up you have in the UK between British and/or English creates problems , Charlie. I tried to explain the difference to some Germans recently who thought that British and English meant the same thing .One woman thought I was indulging in some sort of pan-Celtic national romanticism when I tried to convince her that Scotland was not part of England.

Imperialism begins when patriotic pride becomes nationalistic chauvinism .

Patriotism is dogma - the unquestioning belief that your country is somehow better than other countries. So like all dogma (religions, etc.) it is dangerous and should be opposed. Countries' actions should be judged on their merits.

If the UK does a shitty thing to another country we should condemn it, not support the UK even though we think it is in the wrong, just to be "patriotic".

Also it implicitly supports the idea of borders and states, which isn't a good thing from an anarchist perspective.

If the UK government does a very bad thing, you can be a patriot and at the same time oppose the UK government.

Patriotism is a love of ones country, not government but country.

So what the fuck does the UK government have to do with patriotism?

And patriotism is not believing that your country is better than others. It is a love of your country, it's culture and values.

An honest question, if a Pakistani loved his country would you oppose him, would you oppose his patriotism? I'm not a Pakistani but I still wanted to ask you that question.

I think of patriotism as being proud of a country rather than taking pride in it. Being proud of other peoples achievements within the history of the country whilst dismissing those who would feel shame of imperialism as well if they were to do so. It is being proud about being randomly born into a specific place which you had no choice over. It is generalising people from one place next to another whilst claiming you have lost your culture. It is picking one point of history to wish to emulate, often a misunderstood one. Taking pride in ones country however, finding your own or other cultures and histories interesting and wanting to include them in your life... That's different. As is wanting the best for your country (and others) and buying locally, not because British beef/farmers are more interesting, but because it's closer to self sufficient communities, better environmentally, less capitalistic often, and because current British laws are better for animal welfare usually. To question what is best for your community rather than to accept your community's current way is the best. Often this means not accepting natural change and interation or sub cultures. Taking pride in ones country does not involve competing for a better life against the needs of others or using other countrys weaknesses to benefit our country. Patriotism tends to

....is what it means. Plain and simple. To be a patriot implies you look down on other countries and other ethnicities, while at the same time trying to purify your own folk's blood from unwanted elements, like Hitler did and like EDL, BNP and NF18 are planning to wreak upon darkskinned races like muslims, jews and sikhs.
On the EDL forums billionaire Alan Lake, who bankrolls these organisations and has ties to Swedish Nationaldemocrats Ken Ekthoroth (known for speaking on rallies for thousands of Swedish sieg heiling Hitler Youth wannabees) openly boasted of recreating Warsaw like ghetto's when the 'time is nigh' as he called it.

Patriotism is what lead to danish neo nazi Geert Wildert to being prime minister of that tiny country, who had no dark people save a couple of dozen in Copehague to begin with, and are now expelling them all on planes to Romania.

Patriotism is what lead George W. to unleash unjust wars in Arab countries like Pakistan and Iraq, where he has absolutely no business. Upside to that, is that it has given international marxism millions of new freedom fighters, whom, as soon as they have expelled the white invaders from their countries, will be an asset in our international struggle to overthrow the capitalist imperialist regimes.

Unite!

This whole argument is a bit pointless because we are just arguing semantics.

If patriotism meant you like where you live, but you don't think it is necessarily any better than other places to live, then of course there is nothing wrong with that. But you are just putting forward a very watered-down definition of patriotism which is essentially meaningless. Whether you like it or not, the term patriotism to most people does have connotations of supremacy and unquestioning submittance to the hierarchy.

"Patriotism is a love of ones country, not government but country. So what the fuck does the UK government have to do with patriotism?"

Countries are political entities, defined as geographical regions that share a common government. So I'd say patriotism has absolutely everything to do with government. Some countries have physical features as boundaries like rivers or seas, but the borders are basically arbitrary and originate purely from political terms.

e.g. would an English patriot think that places a few miles south of the Scottish border are much better than place a few miles north of the border?

"if a Pakistani loved his country would you oppose him, would you oppose his patriotism?"

If he just thought Pakistan was a great place to live then of course I wouldn't, but then I wouldn't call that patriotism either. If he though Pakistan was a great country that was better than all other countries in all respects, and the leaders had his unquestioning support, then obviously I would oppose it.

anon, first of all, I thank you for your politeness.

We're not going to agree with each other so I'll stop posting comments under this story..

I think you have confused Patriotism with Nationalism maybe?

Answer to your question depends what you mean by "proud".

The word has meant different things at different times. What Robert Burns (and others in the late 18th century) meant by being patriotic was being on the side of the people against the ruling class. His patriotism meant he was on the side of the Scots people against their rulers. It didn't diminish his regard or support for other people, including the people of England against their rulers (often the same) or the people of Poland, Turkey and other places, in whose support he railed against against their invaders and rulers, too.

It's really an 18th century word, associated with the rise of nation states in what had previously been merely regions or principalities within empires. We can't pretend the word now means anything like it did then. It has been polluted beyond recuperation or redemption and its original sense lost. It belongs in the dustbin.