Fuck off, trots who still suck up to the Labour Party are more embarrassing than kids in hoodies playing at black bloc. It's difficult, but people who actively encourage illusions in social democracy in 2010 just about manage it.

will just allow their growing support to remain unchallenged by failing to place demands on them or involve their leaders and members in joint activism which can demonstrate the failings of Labour and of social-democratic ideology. Fuck off you ultraleftist irrelevance.

"their growing support" - what fucking growing support? The growing support that saw them go from a landslide victory in 1997, to increasingly tepid victories in 2001 and 2005, to losing the last one? Yeah, that certainly looks like growing support to me.

"remain unchallenged" - yes, because you certainly can't challenge anyone's ideas by, you know, just explaining why they're wrong or anything, let alone by building independent campaigns that might actually have a chance of success due to not being shackled to their failed ideology. I trust you'll also be inviting the Lib Dems, Tories and BNP to speak, because we'd all hate to see their ideas remain unchallenged.

"involve their leaders and members in joint activism" - this is the crux of why your argument is such a massive fail. You make no distinction whatsoever between the actual base of the party and their bureaucrats, as if Blair, Brown and Balls were just indistinguishable from your neighbours or workmates who vote Labour and you can't work with one without the other. I think we can all agree that it's vital that public sector workers get involved in this campaign, so by your fucking stupid logic I suppose we should try and "involve public sector managers and workers in joint activism"

"which can demonstrate the failings of Labour and of social-democratic ideology" - Because, of course, Labour aren't capable of demonstrating their failings on their own. The past 13 years of a Labour government provided absolutely no opportunities for Labour to demonstrate their failings, but invite them to speak at a trot meeting in Leeds and that social-democratic consciousness will all just come tumbling down. Good thing us dumb proles have your vanguard to save us from our trade union consciousness, eh?

"what fucking growing support?"

Ask the 20,000 people who have rejoined the election what they think about Labour.

" yes, because you certainly can't challenge anyone's ideas by, you know, just explaining why they're wrong or anything, let alone by building independent campaigns that might actually have a chance of success due to not being shackled to their failed ideology. I trust you'll also be inviting the Lib Dems, Tories and BNP to speak, because we'd all hate to see their ideas remain unchallenged."

Why do you have to be shackled to their failed ideology? Working alongside someone doesn't mean hiding your own politics or stopping proposing your own strategies. Tories and Lib Dems aren't invited because they don't rely on millions of workers organised in trade unions to get into power. The Labour Party does, and is currently in the process of sewing illusions that it's the anti-cuts party.

"this is the crux of why your argument is such a massive fail. You make no distinction whatsoever between the actual base of the party and their bureaucrats, as if Blair, Brown and Balls were just indistinguishable from your neighbours or workmates who vote Labour and you can't work with one without the other. I think we can all agree that it's vital that public sector workers get involved in this campaign, so by your fucking stupid logic I suppose we should try and "involve public sector managers and workers in joint activism""

No there is a clear distinction. We want to break the activists and grassroots and supporters from the leaders. To do that, where illusions exist in them (such as in Eddy, who only got into his position through left-posturing and union votes) we place demands on them which they are unlikely to meet. Tell them to fight every cut. Sounds reasonable to a worker, but can't be done by a leader.

"Because, of course, Labour aren't capable of demonstrating their failings on their own. The past 13 years of a Labour government provided absolutely no opportunities for Labour to demonstrate their failings, but invite them to speak at a trot meeting in Leeds and that social-democratic consciousness will all just come tumbling down. Good thing us dumb proles have your vanguard to save us from our trade union consciousness, eh?"

Yeah Labour did demonstrate it's failings. Which is why we didn't invite LP speakers to meetings for a long time, because it was losing its activist base and working-class support. So we looked outside Labour for opportunities to engage reformist workers in united activism and dialogue. But changing times require changing tactics.

Like I said, look at what Labour's doing and look at how people are changing their views towards it. It's had a recent surge in membership, its going up in the polls and many people see it as a shield against the Tories. No, one meeting won't change everything, but it's a start- don't pretend I made arguments I didn't to try and make my argument seem utopian. It's cheap, and it's what bourgeois politicians do.

"Why do you have to be shackled to their failed ideology? Working alongside someone doesn't mean hiding your own politics or stopping proposing your own strategies." - Yeah, but asking someone to speak at your meeting does pretty much mean being seen to endorse what they're saying.
"No there is a clear distinction. We want to break the activists and grassroots and supporters from the leaders. To do that, where illusions exist in them (such as in Eddy, who only got into his position through left-posturing and union votes) we place demands on them which they are unlikely to meet. Tell them to fight every cut. Sounds reasonable to a worker, but can't be done by a leader." - I don't accept that this is a good way to disillusion anyone. To me, if someone (i.e. the Labour leadership) are going on about how they're going to fight the cuts, and you don't think they can, it seems a lot more honest to just openly say that you don't think they're going to do anything effective, than to cynically demand things that you know are not going to happen, essentially pretending to be more naive than you are. I think that if you want people to trust you, it's important to be honest with them.

"Yeah Labour did demonstrate it's failings. Which is why we didn't invite LP speakers to meetings for a long time, because it was losing its activist base and working-class support. So we looked outside Labour for opportunities to engage reformist workers in united activism and dialogue. But changing times require changing tactics.

Like I said, look at what Labour's doing and look at how people are changing their views towards it. It's had a recent surge in membership, its going up in the polls and many people see it as a shield against the Tories. No, one meeting won't change everything, but it's a start- don't pretend I made arguments I didn't to try and make my argument seem utopian. It's cheap, and it's what bourgeois politicians do. " - Fair enough if that's your attitude, I spose in that case it's unfair to lump you lot in with groups like the SP who just have a totally ahistorical, dogmatic attitude towards Labour. But I still think the best way to engage with workers who support Labour is by building practical unity with them by doing useful work yourself, not by trying to suck up to their leaders or make unrealistic demands on them.