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Accidental rabbit incineration casts doubt on Arson as an ALF tactic

MFaHLS | 04.08.2010 10:31 | SHAC | Animal Liberation

The recent tragic but accidental incineration of 8 rabbits during an ALF style action in Lincolnshire highlights the danger of arson as a tactic.

Unconfirmed reports from Lincolnshire claim that a number of rabbits, bred for vivisection were killed in a vehicle targeted by MFAH.

This incident has reopened the debate in activist circles regarding the use of Arson as a 'non violent' tactic.

Whilst regretting the unfortunate deaths, if they happened, Animal rights groups have vowed not to be defected in their aims.

MFaHLS

Comments

Hide the following 29 comments

Were is the evidence .....

04.08.2010 10:39

sounds like....

Rubbish....

It's here.......

04.08.2010 10:42

http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/news/Bailed-farm-blaze/article-2476480-detail/article.html

Echo
Homepage: http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/news/Bailed-farm-blaze/article-2476480-detail/article.html

Police tactic...

04.08.2010 11:00

Does it not seem strange that the farmer only decided to mention a week after the incident that 8 rabbits had died, despite already giving two interviews to the local press?

Does it not seem strange that such an emotional factor which may have helped engender public support for the farmer and police appeal was not mentioned until after people had been arrested?

Does it not seem strange that the farmer claims the police told him to remove the rabbits (aka evidence) from the crime scene immediately?

It is incontrovertible that the farmer is a prolific liar; following the January '08 raid on his farm he claimed that all of his rabbits were bred for meat. Following the alleged second attempted raid he claimed that some of the rabbits were used for veterinary research. He was then provided with research papers which showed his animals being used by commercial companies and universities in the UK and abroad at which point he confessed that some were used for other types of testing. Now he finally admits says all of his animals are used for research.

Add to this the conflicting claims from the police (they did not mention the dead rabbits in their first two media briefings, and when they finally did it was insinuated this information came from the farmer) and the farmer (who claims the police told him to remove the rabbits) and finally throw in the police's ongoing strategy of using Indymedia and their own website to try and divide and conquer the movement and everything becomes remarkably clear. Don't fall for their bull.

If ever a photo is released of the dead rabbits then we can believe what they say, I strongly suspect that no photo will ever be provided.

Roger

And having re-read the article

04.08.2010 11:01

It becomes so strikingly clear that this whole ruse was just a rather weak ploy to try and prevent further arson attacks in the UK. Looks like we've got them running scared!

Roger

Concerned

04.08.2010 11:08

Is the farmer being investigated for animal cruelty for leaving eight rabbits in a sealed van over night without ventilation? Why were they in there? Did they have food or water? I hope the police are investigating these matters.

Sarah Hargreaves

All we need is confirmation that activists checked the van

04.08.2010 11:08

We don't trust the farmer, we don't trust the press - we never trust the filth so all we need is an assurance, anonymously, that activists checked the van before they torched it!

Because we trust them - don't we!

Not that hard to sort out...

All highly suspicious

04.08.2010 11:18

As already mentioned the alleged death of the rabbits is very suspicious.

It also seems strange that no one has any idea who it is that is alleged to have been arrested even the NETCU website fails to mention that anyone has been arrested for arson (which is something they would usually wet their pants over). The local police gave vague areas in which the two men (both the exact same age) were arrested, but not their street (very unusual in any news report of an arrest), they mentioned that they had been bailed, but not the date they have to answer bail (again, very unusual). I must admit it seems a ridiculous notion that the police have entirely invented these arrests, but I'm really struggling to see an alternative; how could the police have arrested two people (who no one in the animal rights community seems to know) from different ends of the country within a week (before forensics have been analysed) but not had enough evidence to charge them?

Most suspicious of all is that this article appeared at exactly the same time as one on the police's own anti-animal website (both posted from the same proxy too).

Please keep lying; the more tangled the web you weave the sooner your amusing little facade will come crumbing down around you.

Veg@n

Boot the cops off Indy!

04.08.2010 11:22

When it is a known the fact that the police pay PR companies to post on here (and indeed often post themselves), it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out the motivations behind these divisive posts.

You gain nothing from engaging these people. I would call them idiots, but they aren't (at least not in the mindless dumb troll sense), they are playing a deliberate, clinical long term game of trying to divide the AR movement from the rest of the activist community, and also within itself.

You wouldn't talk to the cops on a demo, or in an interview, so why talk to them on here? Why give them the satisfaction of watching you draw self imposed lines within our movement due to a few carefully selected words on their part, when instead we could be the one's laughing at the blatant attempts at divide and rule, our laugher motiving our passion when we exact revenge on their mind games by upping our actions?

Don't let the cops run Indymedia, it's time we took it back!

Cop Cruncher

The cop trolls on Indymedia...

04.08.2010 11:26

...make me so fucking angry I feel like going out and burning something just to piss them off.

Mercedes VanBern

Are we logging IP addresses again?

04.08.2010 11:39

Most suspicious of all is that this article appeared at exactly the same time as one on the police's own anti-animal website (both posted from the same proxy too).

Are we logging IP addresses again? And how are we managing this on 'their' website.

Smells like BS...

IP sceptic

@ skeptic

04.08.2010 11:51

I could tell you... but then I'd have to kill you!

Seriously though, if I tell you how I'm tracking your IP then you would use a different proxy and I'd have to start over wouldn't I? And I can't go public without the proof...

Veg@n

Why....

04.08.2010 12:05

... would there be rabbits in a van on site... when there are sheds for them..? Seems an odd place to store eight rabbits over night... imagine if the Home Office had turned up for a routine inspection and found them like that... that's got to be breaking some of their guidelines... Maybe Geoff should be reported.

Considering the previous theft of rabbits, surely Geoff wouldn't just leave some in a van!

Doubter

V@gan - thanks

04.08.2010 12:07

Ta...you have confirmed it's BS.

IP sceptic

It's one thing or the other

04.08.2010 12:12

Either it's a lie that there were rabbits in the van or it's not.

Those here calling for Douglas to be investigated for leaving the rabbits in the van seen to accept that he did - so presumably you accept that they burnt to death as well?

Which is it as it can't be both....

Make up your minds...

Either or, neither nor

04.08.2010 12:31

To the chump who posted above me ^ ^ there are several people posting on here, so it doesn't take a genius to work out that people might think different things about something that lacks any proof either way.

to my mind it seems very likely that the whole thing is a lie, but if I am wrong then Geoffrey Douglas should be investigated for leaving the rabbits in a van (wow somehow my mental gymnastics managed to twist themselves around your banal nonsense!)

Also, said investigation would prove either way if there were rabbits (I have a funny feeling that as soon as such an inquiry were announced the claims would be rather hastily retracted).

And IP Sceptic, something certainly seemed to get you spooked there didn't it?! Whether Veg@n is telling the truth or not, the only reason for your swift and demanding comment can only be that the accusation hit rather close to home! Thank you for proving what we all knew, that the police are behind this whole crock of divisive crap.

Fence Sitter

Arson is peculiar?

04.08.2010 12:54

".... all we need is confirmation that the activists checeked ...."

Uh no, all we need is confirmation whether or not the rabits killed by the fire. Arson is one of those acts where INTENT matters little and you are resonsible for the results of any fire you set. It is in the nature of a fire that once set is out of your control.

For example, if somebody gets killed as a result (say a firefighter who dies in the course of fighting the fire) you are held responsible for that. Yes it would be a factor in deciding the DEGREE of manslaughter whether or not you checked. But that's just the difference between reckless disregard and ordinary disregard of consequences.

Actually not completely different than all other felonies in that in some of the others you can be considered responsible for accidents "in the course of", Just that in the case of arson, because fire is always "out of control", consequences are never "accidents".

MDN

IP logging on Indy is .....

04.08.2010 12:57

Those that remember the Indymedia server seizure saga would not joke about IP logging. Come to think of it that was AR related as well.

No Joke

I remember it well

04.08.2010 13:17

That epic saga is one of my favorite all time stories! Tell us again about that glorious winters eve when the police wrote on Indymedia that all our IP's our logged, and then heroically seized the Indy server and used all those logged IP's too...

Oh wait a minute, there weren't any logged IP's were there...

Bringing PC Hysterical down to earth for a moment though, if someone who was proficient with hacking were to send some form of spybot onto the computer posting on Indy, or anywhere else they would be able to track the IP. It would seem the sensible course of action rather than the rather long winded alternative.

Hope that hasn't ruined anything for anyone, just seemed a worthwhile observation.

Jake Greenwood

Never mind all the technical and legal mumbo jumbo...

04.08.2010 13:39

Who gives a toss? All I want to know is that the activists checked the van before they torched it and didn't just torch the first thing they found.

The speed of repudiation and range of counter allegations just makes me more suspicious that this is an almighty cock up.

Smoke screen

trolling bullshit - delete?

04.08.2010 14:02

This is obviously a load of bullshit posted by pro-police or pro-animal abuse trolls in an attempt at divide and rule.

It makes no sense whatsoever that oh he suddenly happens to remember that some rabbits died and how heartbroken he was. This kind of lying is a tactic used by many people over the years, and I don't think it has ever turned out to be genuine.

If you are going to lie, Geoffrey Douglas, at least do it convincingly.

And here's a link to more information about this hellhole, Highgate Farm in Lincolnshire, that breeds rabbits for experiments:

http://www.shac.net/OperationLiberation/Abouthighgate/

Let's hope this backfires on them and instead unleashes more interest in the campaign against the farm. Highgate Farm is in a very vulnerable position - look at what happened to Hillgrove Farm.

anon

That this is Still up is A BIG...

04.08.2010 14:13

An article highlighting that SHAC activists burnt 8 rabbits to death is still up on Indymedia!

Time have changed.....

Surprised

What a waste of life...

04.08.2010 14:41

Those rabbits would be much better stuff with apricots and almonds, slow roasted and served with a good tabouleh.

Indymedia - what a joke...

Chef Boyardee

DELETE

04.08.2010 15:07

Please delete this. It's divisive and based purely on hearsay and opinion.

At the end of the day if it is true (which clearly is unlikely) it would be an almighty accident but the overall cause is much greater.

Stop being so reactionary.

Not an AR activist

04.08.2010 15:35

I'm not an animal rights activist (probably not the best time to mention my life-long meat eating habit...) but I thought I would weigh in here, like I say this isn't particularly 'my area' so feel free to pull me up on anything I get wrong, BUT:

Presuming this is true (and I have had my fair share of lying cops/corporations/media), and these rabbits dies in a horrible way... does it really matter? I mean, they were in the back of a van on their way to a laboratory right? Like I have said I'm no expert, but I have seen a few videos from inside those places and generally it seems the animals die in some nasty way or other. So if this action hadn't happened the rabbits would have been taken off and cruelly killed. As it was, they were cruelly killed, but in an action that potentially could close this breeder. So tactically I don't get why it matters if they died or not; the alternative for them was never a holiday to Teletubby Land!

Again, I'm no AR activist, so apologies if this seems a bit crass, but from where I'm standing it seems a pretty brave and inspirational action that the rest of the AR movement should be praising.

Peace

Mac

"Smoke screen"

04.08.2010 15:41

You seem to have this back to front; no one knows who did this action, and it is entirely likely they never go on Indymedia in order for them to confess to you. Therefore it is more than a little remedial for you to think that your blanket plea for a confession will meet anything other than a wall of silence.

HOWEVER there is a way you can find out if this is true or not. Simply phone the police and ask them to release the photo taken by SOCO of the dead rabbits in order to aid their appeal. If they have the photo there is absolutely nor reason for them to refuse. If they don't it is a lie.

Here is the number for the incident room: 0300 111 0300

Pete

I call bullshit

04.08.2010 15:44

The owner of the farm would not leave rabbits in a van overnight it breaks welfare guidelines and he would have known that any violations were they to be discovered by activists would have been a media victory for them. They would have been able to take pictures and publicise them as further evidence of violations and a need to close the farm due to ongoing abuse.

The farmer is lying about animals in the van.

Activist

It's not about confession ...

04.08.2010 16:04

This is another deliberate misinterpretation - nobody wants or needs a confession but it would be nice to know that this was an action undertaken responsibly by responsible activists.

Not, as is being portrayed - irresponsible thrill seekers with little regard for life, be it animal or otherwise.

So - once again - did you check?

it's about responsibility

Who?!?!?!

04.08.2010 16:13

Once again... did who check? You're asking a question that only one or two people in the world know the answer to, as i said, if those people don't come in Indymedia they cannot answer, and no one else can give you an answer.

I gave you the number for the police, give them a call and see if they have SOCO pics of dead rabbits.

Here it is again:

0300 111 0300

Pete

Sorry if susceptible to being misunderstood

04.08.2010 19:54

I was not intending to have "responsibility" understood in its "legal mumbo jumbo" sense but in its ordinary sense. Disagree if you want, but I consider people responsible for their actions. In cases where a "reasonable person" should be able to see the possibility of unintended consequences, then its the consequences that count, not our intent. Maybe not ALL consequences but any not improbable.

It is the nature of some choices of actions, arson, placing bombs, etc. that they are particularly susceptible to "unintended consequences". I am NOT saying these things never justified. But I am saying accept responsibility, no simpering afterward "but that wasn't my intent".

There are other choices of actions where the outcomes are less likely to be other than intended unless something truely freaky happens, things so far down the tail of the probability curve that we do not expect "reasonable persons" to be taking those possibilities into account. Yes freak accidents do happen, but in law and especially in ordinary reconning of responsponsibility we discount these.

MDN