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I Eat Dinner With Murderers: An Essay On Vegetarianism and Animal Ethics

John Preston | 25.06.2010 19:58 | Animal Liberation | Climate Chaos | Ecology

This is an article I wrote on my blog a while ago. I discuss my opinions on animal rights, and talk about how I have approached these views and the principles they are founded on. In short, through application of preference utilitarianism and empathy, we should not kill or cause harm to other animals.

I’ve been a vegetarian for nearly a year now, and it’s not been very easy. The first couple of months were probably the hardest: my body was adjusting to a new diet, and I’d had to go without some of the things I love (mainly KFC and Wine Gums). However, I stuck to it, and now I’m used to it. I still use meat analogues, but to increase my protein intake and to expand my meal choices, rather than because I can’t go x hours without that chickeny taste I used to love so much.

If you know me well, then you’re probably aware that I’m deeply interested in anarchist philosophy, and may know that my vegetarianism (and the subsequent animal rights views I hold that grew out of it) are deeply linked to my anarchist principles. If you’re not familiar with anarchy, apart from the political view of the abolition of government (to be replaced with a horizontal power structure as opposed to a vertical one, but that’s for another time) the other core mechanic is that there are no rules as such. Instead, you should have the right to do whatever you want, so long as it doesn’t interfere with the rights of others.

Quite shortly after getting involved with anarchy, I started researching into animal rights. I realised that, just as the right to life is a basic right (as defined by the ‘one rule’ above) for humans, so it should be for animals as well. This crossed my mind whilst I was looking into the notion of sentience. Sentience is the ability for an organism to feel pleasure and pain, which is an example of a high-level awareness of one’s environment and senses. Basically, no animal (including a human) would like like getting stabbed with a rusty knife (well some humans do, but we’re talking generally here), so if we extend this courtesy onto other humans, why don’t we extend it to other animals? It may seem as if I’m stating the obvious here: after all, animals cry when they’re in pain, as do humans. Yet people are still perfectly willing to do things like this to animals (I’m sure most of you reading this are nice individuals, but look at the sheer number of tortured and abused animals rescued by the likes of the RSPCA every year).

Many people (including myself) base, or at least analyse, their ethics on the principle of empathy: putting yourself in someone else’s shoes. So you likely wouldn’t stab someone because you wouldn’t want someone to stab you. An animal may not be able to say “damn, that hurt” but it would definitely feel the pain in the same way you would, so at the very least we should not harm any sentient being (if only everyone thought this way). The same thing applies for the right to life: you wouldn’t like it if I killed you, so we don’t try to kill each other (generally, although wars still rage on, but that’s for a different essay). All animals exhibit a survival instinct: we generally do not want to die, and will do virtually anything to prevent it. Again, by the principle of empathy and by the fact of survival instinct, we should not kill other animals, because it’s not nice, and we know for a fact that it is not desired.

So we’ve now established that hurting and killing another sentient being is not a good thing to do, and yet people still do it. Why? Maybe we choose not to think about it, or at some lower hunter-gatherer/animal instinct level we subconsciously block out these thoughts to prevent ourselves from becoming empathic, to prevent the death of the individual organism or the species. But if this has meant something to you (and I hope it has), then think about what you’re doing and stop. And tell someone else. Tell everyone you know that they’re supporting the death of sentient beings, either through hunting or fishing or buying and eating meat, or even by inaction.

Here’s another way you can think about it, which interested me quite a lot as a scientist. Over millions of year, we have evolved into ‘more intelligent’ beings than others: we have a society, we have a language, we build cars, etc. and this is in clear contrast to the other species of animals on this planet. But, if we go about killing animals (many before they are old), we don’t know what they could be doing. If a sheep has just given birth to a lamb, with some genetic ‘abnormality’ (which is all evolution is, really) that makes it more intelligent than other sheep, or gives it some higher level form of consciousness that will eventually develop into some intelligence like that shared by Homo sapiens, then we have to let that lamb grow up and pass on its genes, and let its mind experience things so that its consciousness may evolve too. People say “animals aren’t intelligent, so it’s O.K. to kill them”, but by killing them you’re directly affecting that process! Your BLT could have been the world’s first talking pig, or a direct ancestor of him/her. Killing animals is not only a mean thing to do, but you’re also playing God with the future of another race.

“But we need to eat animals,” people say, “they’ve got a lot of important nutrients you can’t get from plants!” In fact, both the American Dietetic Association and the Dietitians of Canada say that any properly planned vegetarian or vegan diet is nutritionally complete throughout all stages of life. Providing you put a bit of thought into what you’re eating, you can get everything you need from your food without ever having to contribute to the suffering of an animal again. It’s quite ironic when people say things like this, with the growing problem of obesity, especially in the UK and USA. People are hooked on fast food, and most of their diet is very high in fats and salt; they’re probably already missing out on a large chunk of their nutrients. Going vegetarian has actually caused me to eat a lot healthier than before (although there’s always room for improvement, and exercise is an important factor in health as well), and evidence shows that on average vegetarians and vegans are healthier and live longer than meat-eaters.

A friend pointed out to me once that it is difficult to get some essential amino acids in a vegetarian diet, and argued that eating meat is necessary. Naturally this had me concerned, however I later discovered that this ‘protein combining’ theory is outdated, and has been discredited for some time. One true concern among vegetarians is vitamin B12, which is not found in reliable amounts in any plant sources. However, milk and eggs are both very high in B12, and vegan-suitable supplements are readily available. Many foods (especially breakfast cereals, soy milks, and yeast extracts like Marmite) are also fortified with B12, so it’s not really much of a worry. The only other commonly-cited concern is lack of omega-3 fatty acids, however walnuts, flaxseed, and olive oil are all very high in these and again, vegan-suitable supplements are available.

Another good argument for vegetarianism, especially if you’re concerned about environmental issues, is to prevent the further degradation of the environment. The livestock industry contributes massively to deforestation, pollution, and climate change, and results in massive overuse of resources such as oil and water. It’s already common knowledge that there is enough food and water for the whole world, and if everyone was vegetarian there would be even more. People complain about the rainforest being chopped down and donate their £5, yet the reason it’s been chopped down is so that companies can cheaply rear the beef they’re eating on their burger. Many more resources go into feeding animals for food than would go into the same amount of crops. In addition, vegetarianism is much more economic than an omnivorous diet on an individual basis: you could save quite a lot of money.

One final thing people point out to me is leather. I’m totally against the use of any product that requires the death of an animal, and I find it quite annoying when people say “but cows aren’t killed for leather, it’s a secondary product”. Actually many cows (and other animals) are killed for their leather as the primary product, as it is a commodity. Besides, even when it is a secondary product you are still supporting an industry that supports the killing of an animal, so leather is harmful. Many people are also completely unaware of the environmental impact of the leather production process: the process uses a lot of water, and the wastewater left over has dangerously high levels of chromium, as well as other toxic chemicals. Air pollution is also a serious factor, due to the use of ammonia and hydrogen sulphide. Commercial-level tanning is arguably one of the most polluting industries on the planet.

I’ve now pointed out quite a few reasons why we shouldn’t kill animals for food or other products (such as leather), but what about rights other than the right to life? Naturally this is a topic with many different views, and it’s very important to animal rights activists and rights scholars in general.

Peter Singer, author of Animal Liberation (a key book in the animal rights movement), has one of the more interesting views: an act should be judged on how it affects the individuals involved, relative to their preferences. That is to say, an act can be deemed ‘good’ if it satisfies the preferences of all of those involved. In terms of this “preference utilitarianism” nothing is inherently good or bad, as each individual has their own preferences; only the resulting state of mind is good or bad, and this is dependent on what the individuals desire. Applied to animals, Singers says that animals do not necessarily need to be treated as strict equals, but deserve equal consideration of interest. All living organisms want to maximise pleasure and minimise pain, and this counts as a set of preferences. As we stated before, empathy and fairness show us that we should give equal consideration to others, and to animals as they are sentient beings too, so we can use preference utilitariansim as a rights framework.

Ultimately, the divide between the animal rights advocates and their opponents lies on the lack of a link between humans and animals. Because we cannot prove the intelligence of animals (or because animals are not as intelligent as us, as some may argue), it is very difficult to apply conventional ethical philosophies to the animal rights movement. A key critic is Carl Cohen, who argues that animals should not get the same rights as humans as they are unable to differentiate between their own rights and needs, and those of the general consensus.

This is evidently an important point, but it has numerous flaws. First of all, what about the domestication of animals? This surely shows that animals can learn to respect the ‘rules’ of the other species they live with. I’m not saying we should domesticate all animals, but I’m pointing it out as an example that the debate is much more complex than it seems. Furthermore, look at the intricate societies that insects such as bees, wasps, and ants have built up. They have concepts of rules and leaders, and if an animal can learn to respect other members of its species, surely it can learn to respect the wishes of members of other species. The argument has other flaws as well: Cohen cannot expect us to retract the rights of the mentally disabled.

At the very least, all animals deserve the right to life. There are numerous ethical frameworks that can be applied, and they all draw the same conclusion. Vegetarianism and veganism are also much better for the environment, and for yourself. There is no ethically-, environmentally-, or economically-sound reason for eating meat, it’s simply one of the most selfish and ignorant acts one can commit. Although the animal rights debate is a large and complicated one, that much is obvious.

From:  http://www.johnlpreston.co.uk.nyud.net/2010/04/17/i-eat-dinner-with-murderers-an-essay-on-vegetarianism-and-animal-ethics/

John Preston
- e-mail: gizmoguy1@gmail.com
- Homepage: http://gizmoguy1@gmail.com

Comments

Hide the following 30 comments

mmm

25.06.2010 20:25

Good write up and some fair points.

But I think you are missing the evolutionary aspect of our species. We are omnivores, we eat meat.
If we didn't then human beings wouldn't even exist.

I believe there is no definite right or wrong, and so it is a mute point. The arguments are purely one of a moral viewpoint. For instance, there are people who believe that humans should only eat food that has fallen from the tree of its own accord. To pick the fruit early is morally wrong - and therefore (in their eyes) you are a bad, bad person doing something that is inexcusable.

turkey


Need more John

26.06.2010 01:32

I understand what you say, John, but something is missing (incomplete)

Why is it wrong for you (an animal) to kill and eat another animal if its isn't wrong for say a bear or a raccoon (I intentionally chose other omnivores as examples).

Yes of course I know the possible tacks, but which one do you want to choose

Do you want to say humans aren't "animals"? (but something higher, better, etc.)
Do you want to say it is wrong for the bear or the raccoon but the poor things just can't help themselves? (other animals are inferior humans)
Do you want to try something else?

The problem, of course, is that you CAN choose to argue "Nature is evil/immoral" but do you want to?

MDN


Choice is the point

26.06.2010 06:41

You are correct there - it's a matter of choice. You have made yours - allow others the dignity to make theirs.

Not Vegan


dignity

26.06.2010 09:06

I normally do allow people the choice. And i never have a go at vegans and vegetarians.

However, what caught my eye was the article's headline calling people like me murderers. Thats not that unusual either, cow rapist is another one if you dare drink a drop of milk.

Thats not very dignified or respectful. So, if you are going to dish it out, expect a lack of dignity in return.


turkey shoot


re: Why is it wrong for you (an animal) to kill and eat another animal

26.06.2010 10:53

MDN: "Why is it wrong for you (an animal) to kill and eat another animal if its isn't wrong for say a bear or a raccoon (I intentionally chose other omnivores as examples)."

Why is it wrong for you to rape/attack another human if its isn't wrong for an animal to rape/attack another animal of the same species?

Animals do many things to each other that we don't think is ethical for us to do. Just because other animals do something doesn't mean it's OK for us to do as well.

And being an omnivore doesn't mean you should eat meat, just that it is biologically possible.

vegan


Self Rhighteous

26.06.2010 11:13

Bullshit. You can say and eat whatever you like, that doesnt make meat eaters murderers. humans are carnivores, our bodies havent developed other however many millenia to eat purely lentils and humous. vegetarians are alright but being vegan is like self harm. the trick is to not eat the shit they put out at mcdos, KFC and the sub standard stuff. if everyone sudenly became vegetarian then what would happen to all the livestock? we would have to kill loads of them anyway because we have no use for a bunch of domesticated animals who have no other working value.

anon


I agree with vegan

26.06.2010 11:50

OK we can live on meat and veg biologically. However unless your meat comes from roadkill you have ended the life of a creature who is no less important than you. If you really think that your life is more important than a cow's go on proove it explain why you have the right to murder without cause whilst at the same time have you life protected. After all if we follow the human supremist conclusion through surely anyone who thinks that they are superior to another can torture and kill as their choice. If someone thinks that it is their "choice" to kill an innocent being for mere taste , then why should not someone else choose to kill that person just for the sake of "choice"?
Scavenging the scraps from carcasses left by carnivores or eating caterpillas and slugs is far more akin to our natural state than buying some slab of flesh in a supermarket. And let us end this nonsense aboutvegans not being healthy. In fact many of us are healthier than omnivores throughout the life continuum including childhood, pregnancy and old age. 250,000 vegans in this country alone all of whom do not die because they abstain from animal products!
Furthermore we cannot afford to eat other animals, there is simply not enough land or water to continue eating animal products on this upward trajectory. I fail to see why those of us who abstain from dead animals and the secretions of live ones should have to subsidise the dietary choices of others through taxes and pay for clearing up animal faeces which contaminate the rivers. Those who choose to eat luxury products should not only pay in full for their choice but also pay for the pollution in some sort of meat dairy surcharge. Your choice? OK then pay for it and have the guts to murder your own victims something so many omnivores shy away from.

Lynn Sawyer


arguments for meat eating

26.06.2010 12:45

>> If you really think that your life is more important than a cow's go on proove it explain why you have the right to murder without cause whilst at the same time have you life protected. After all if we follow the human supremist conclusion through surely anyone who thinks that they are superior to another can torture and kill as their choice. If someone thinks that it is their "choice" to kill an innocent being for mere taste , then why should not someone else choose to kill that person just for the sake of "choice"?

I could try and sit here and prove i'm more important than a cow to justify eating it. But, i don't see why I have to? I can just eat it anyway - its not against the law. And how that leads onto me killing other human beings i dont know (which is against the law - big clue there). It is possible to eat animals AND not kill other humans - millions of people do it everyday.

>> Scavenging the scraps from carcasses left by carnivores or eating caterpillas and slugs is far more akin to our natural state than buying some slab of flesh in a supermarket.

I disagree. There is plenty of evidence of early humans and even before our species became homosapians, hunting and eating meat. There is also plenty of evidence to show that meat was stored. Its natural because it is part of our evolutionary process. To not eat meat is going against this and therefore is actually unnatural (not that is a bad thing).

>> And let us end this nonsense aboutvegans not being healthy. In fact many of us are healthier than omnivores throughout the life continuum including childhood, pregnancy and old age. 250,000 vegans in this country alone all of whom do not die because they abstain from animal products!

I don't argue against that.

>>Furthermore we cannot afford to eat other animals, there is simply not enough land or water to continue eating animal products on this upward trajectory. I fail to see why those of us who abstain from dead animals and the secretions of live ones should have to subsidise the dietary choices of others through taxes and pay for clearing up animal faeces which contaminate the rivers. Those who choose to eat luxury products should not only pay in full for their choice but also pay for the pollution in some sort of meat dairy surcharge. Your choice? OK then pay for it

There is enough land and water, otherwise we wouldn't be able to do it. Where do you draw the line in the sand about paying for stuff? I hate having to pay towards the safe policing of lefty protests - it would be cheaper just to shoot them...but i do it anyway. I hate paying for the longterm unemployed's food and rent, i hate paying for all the overseas subsidese that we seem to fork out. But i do it because its come about from a democratic process. And i really hate paying for drug addict's methadone subscriptions.... if they want to get high all day, why can't they pay for it - its a luxury item?


>> Have the guts to murder your own victims something so many omnivores shy away from.

Hey i would, but guess what? I'm not allowed to because a load of people argued that you need proper licences, faciltities, inspections etc.etc. Rules brought in by people who were concerned about animal welfare. What do you expect me to do? Break and law and not give consideration to how i slaughter the animal?

turkey shoot


Think it through a bit more. . .

26.06.2010 16:53

The status of an act as being either 'natural' or 'unnatural' is not, in-itself, a compelling ethical criterion. Human ethics are not based on what our evolutionary ancestors did to survive. Ethics, thankfully, has evolved too. A man's libido and genitals are perfectly natural, he may be able to physically overpower a woman, but that does not mean that rape is ethically permissible, regardless of how early humans behaved. We think of rape as being immoral or unethical because of the harm and suffering it causes. Nature is not a meaningful criterion in the moral status of rape, nor is it for most of what constitutes ethics.

In response to this:

"if everyone suddenly became vegetarian then what would happen to all the livestock?"

Livestock exist in such large numbers because they are bred for the meat industry. Obviously breeding would need to be phased out. A vast amount of land would become available that was formerly used for grazing. A great deal of agricultural land used to produce animal feed would also be freed up. Sensible management of this land could easily include the creation of nature reserves for animals previously used as livestock. Once this transition has taken place, nature will regulate them in their own habitat. There you go, it's not rocket science.

With regard to choice...

"it's a matter of choice. You have made yours - allow others the dignity to make theirs."

...of course everyone has a choice of diet, just like they have a choice in most areas of life. I could choose to dabble in crime that harms others, and protest my 'dignity' to choose the unethical option, but such dubious dignity doesn't stop the act from being immoral. So feel free to eat meat, but don't hide behind spurious arguments about it being natural to circumnavigate the fact that highly sentient creatures endure unimaginable suffering, followed by brutal slaughter, solely so supposedly moral beings can eat luxury food that they can easily and healthily do without.

I would not call a meat eater a 'murderer', I feel that's inaccurate and only likely to provoke a sense of outrage and defensiveness. Every meat eater though, whether they want to accept the fact or not, is complicit in the industry that they support with their custom. Conditions at factory farms are well documented to be grotesquely inhumane. Even so-called 'free range' farms deny their animals a basic level of welfare, making a mockery of the term (investigate it for yourself). Just as, in buying garments sourced from sweat shops, you are complicit in the exploitation of the overworked, underpaid workers, buying meat, dairy, eggs and other animal products makes you complicit in the suffering caused to the animals. At the very least any meat eater with a conscience should demand a humane level of animal welfare from the suppliers of the meat on their dinner plates.

For those that stick by the "Look we've got pointy teeth, therefore it's morally right to eat meat." viewpoint, consider the following:

Meat-eaters: have claws

Herbivores: no claws

Humans: no claws (nails don't count)


Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue

Herbivores: perspire through skin pores

Humans: perspire through skin pores


Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding

Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding

Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding


Meat-eaters: have an intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly

Herbivores: have an intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.

Humans: have an intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.


Meat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat

Herbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater

Humans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater


Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits.

Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits

Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits


Meat-eaters: have acid saliva without the enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains

Herbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains

Humans: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grain


Regardless of all that, I repeat, eating meat isn't moral or immoral based on whether it's natural or unnatural. It's unethical because of the immense amount of suffering it causes to creatures that have as much of a capacity to experience agony and terror as us humans do.

Tezza


Well well Turkey shoot

26.06.2010 17:00

You cannot prove that you are more important than a cow can you, because unless you revert to some creationist bollocks such as "cos god says" you do not have an argument? Just saying that something is morally justifiable because it is currently legal can be used to justify atrocities from the slave trade, to the holocaust it does not deny inherent cruelty or injustice. It is also perfectly legal for me to walk into Primark and buy stuff made by virtual slave labour but it does not mean that the appalling working conditions people are forced to endure are morally OK. Ditto if I had the money and the inclination I could buy a diamond for which people have died for.
Some people use the power argument to justify meat eating, i.e "I am superior because I can successfully kill and/or subdue another" . Very well then what if someone kills or subdues that person, they should not complain as this other person is just higher up in the food chain. Meat eaters should also not get too excited about other animals eating them or their children, its only natural after all isn't it if a few rats have a bit of a gnaw at someone who has collapsed? "WE are top of the food chain" say some human supremists, but alas no, not when you are surrounded by sharks or other unrestrained carnivores who kill because they have no choice and because they are unable to live in any other way.
As you rightly said eating meat is all about CHOICE, choosing to restarin, mutilate, terrorise and kill. A hawk kills without having a choice as do indigenous tribes of humans now few and far between. As we can actually choose NOT to kill other sentient beings, choose NOT to rape, choose NOT to go to war , choose NOT to exploit one another and choose instead to live in harmony with other creatures and one another that to me seems to be more alluring.

Our society is built on blood and oppression, veganism is a way of limiting our impact on the earth and divorcing ourselves as far as possible from the most appalling cruelty. Why this is constantly sneered at as the planet burns, millions starve and poisons fill air, land and water whilst virtue is held as how big someone's arse is or how devoted they are to the cult of ME ME ME "because I'm worth it" is somewhat bewildering. Maybe you could explain why this is the case.

Your arguments about methadone, benifits etc are oft debated and mulled over by politicians and media. I am no expert on drug rehabilitation and benifits and state freebies are enjoyed by many who are very wealthy and know how to milk the system whilst the poor scrape by on a pittance. It is complicated and I do not wish to comment on that (due to the fact that I do not know much about it) but meat and milk are luxury products which are subsidised by the taxpayer and I have no idea why. Afterall the state does not assist me in buying a bottle of wine, chocolate or a tub of vegan icecream so why should the state subsidise a pint of cow's milk or a pound of flesh? In fact to preserve the planet and the economy it would make sense to stop all subsidies to luxury foods i.e foods we do not need to thrive. If anyone is going to slap VAT on anything they could do worse than slapping it on stuff like bacon and eggs.

Doing animal rights stalls I have only met one person, just one, who eats meat and refuses to eat any meat from a corpse which he had not killed himself. Slaughterhouses are literally hell on earth, full of blood, terror and fear. Meat eating nearly always (unless eating from a corpse whose owner has died from natural causes or blameless trauma) involves immense fear, suffering and pain even in prehistoric times (when as I understand it, most foodstuffs were of plant origin). In the times we live in the suffering of the victims is immense and starts at birth completely unneccessarily so.

As for the fact that our society produces enough meat, milk and eggs look to China, look to India. If meat eating is so great why should these billions of aspirants be denied? How on earth is this small globe going to produce enough of the modern western diet to appease everyone? We already sqaunder vast resources from other poorer nations to supply the meat and dairy industry and the seas are dying from pollution and overfishing. We will be lucky to exist as a species for another century if we go on like this.

Lynn Sawyer


Well well Lynn

26.06.2010 18:24

>> You cannot prove that you are more important than a cow can you, because unless you revert to some creationist bollocks such as "cos god says" you do not have an argument?

Sorry, but i don't see why i need to prove anything. In the same way, I don't see why you would have to prove to a certain group of fruitcakes that picking an Apple from a tree before it has fallen is not morally wrong (they would argue you have stolen the apple from the tree). I''m struggling to see why I should i prove I'm more important than a cow?

But,..... if you insist......................
(it seems to form the cornerstone of you argument, so I shall concentrate on that point)

Its rather a subjective question, and I severly doubt you will find ANYONE who says a cow is more important or equal than themselves. I think the vast majority of people will think they are more important than a cow. If you did manage to find someone who thinks a cow is more important than themselves then they are lying or have some mental issue.

Don't believe me? Ok, heres a question:
Imagine there is a train-engine speeding out of control down a gradient towards a cliff. The train contains 1 human driver and he will face certain death. You are standing near a track-lever and can divert the train onto a safe level track. However there is a cow stood on this track and it will be killed if you divert the train. You are faced with two options:
a) Don't do anything - the train go off the cliff and kill the driver.
b) Pull the lever - the driver will be saved, but the train will hit and kill the cow.

I'd be really interested to see you answer and why.

I bet 99.9999999999999% of normal people who don't have some chip on their shoulder would pull the lever. In fact, I think you could extend this to say there are 20 cows and people would still act the same. If they didn't, i think they would say they regretted not doing so at a later date.

I think that consistutes prove - I've only proved this because you have insisted that I do so.
A human life is more important than a cow. It is more important than 20 cows.

All your arguments are based on violence and exploitation of other humans beings. I'm saying it is meaningless to compare the two because we clearly hold a different set of values for a human life compared to a cows life. Murder and raping humans has NOTHING to do with eating meat.

Is eating meat wrong? Subjective based on morals. Morals generally are formed from the general consensus. Most people eat meat, therefore is it morally ok to do so. Maybe at some point our morals will evolve where most people think it is bad. At that point it will be made illegal and I won't eat it anymore because it is wrong.

This fits in with Tezza's intelligent post of how our ethics evolve - over time.

btw. I have actually worked in a slaughterhouse in the loading bay moving 1/2 cows and pigs on rails. I've been there and seen it with my eyes.

turkey shoot


additional "proof"

26.06.2010 18:45

1) This time the train contains 2,000 cows in carriages (the driver has jumped to safety).
a) If you do nothing, the train will go off a cliff and kill all the cows
b) If you pull the lever, the train and cows will be safe, but a 4 year old girl will be hit by the train.


2) You are stuck on a desert island with no food except a 5 valuable prize cows. The cows are fine, they can eat the vegetation and will survive. You know from a radio message that you will be picked up in 6 months.
Do you:
a) Do nothing. You will starve to death, but the cows will survive and will be rescued to live a long life.
b) Kill and eat the cows. You will survive and be rescued.


3) You are stuck on a similar desert island and find a cow and a very ill person who is about to die from starvation. Do you:
a) Kill the cow, and therefore be able to feed and save the human
b) Let the person die from natural causes and save the cow


Right, teatime.... lamb for dinner

turkey shoot


response to turkey shoot

26.06.2010 20:09

Hi turkeyshoot, I'd like to respond to this comment:

"Is eating meat wrong? Subjective based on morals. Morals generally are formed from the general consensus. Most people eat meat, therefore is it morally ok to do so. Maybe at some point our morals will evolve where most people think it is bad. At that point it will be made illegal and I won't eat it anymore because it is wrong.

This fits in with Tezza's intelligent post of how our ethics evolve - over time. "

What you're inferring is a sort of moral-relativism, whereby the prevailing social norms equate to ethical principles. I would contend that it's shaky ground to suggest that a majority view constitutes a moral truth. Even in aesthetics, which is subjective, that would not ring true (otherwise Jedward would currently be of greater aesthetic value than Simon & Garfunkel - perish the thought). Seriously though, I think you're half right. I would suggest that ethics evolve in the sense that, over time, moral awareness increases (often roughly in line with the sciences). The awareness, which is ethically progressive, is a recognition of rights, from the basic to the more complex. Often an ethical imperative emerges from a situation that pits one set of rights against another. In the case of eating meat, it is the right of a human to the pleasure of eating a tasty meal versus the right of a sentient animal to not suffer and be killed. If the latter were, say, a young infant, then you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would dispute that the right to a tasty meal is far outweighed by the infants right not to suffer and die, and rightly so. Most of the animals that end up on your plate have a comparable level of sentience as that infant, however, and a comparable level of intelligence (as meat eaters often point to superior intelligence as a reason for humans eating meat). To say it's not ethical to eat the child, but perfectly ethical to eat the animal is inconsistent, and can only really be explained by 'speciesism'. It is, however, the position that most people would take.

I would say that what makes something moral or not is a rational and unprejudiced appraisal of the rights and preferences involved, not the prevailing attitudes in society. It wasn't so long ago that the majority of Europeans accepted the enslavement of Africans as normal, does it sound convincing to state that slavery was moral then but it's immoral now? The relativism falls down, I believe.

To return to the question of rape, the right of a man to achieve sexual climax is surely eclipsed by the right of a woman to not suffer such violence, trauma and violation. Does it make a difference what era or society area the rape happens in? Yes is the answer that would be given by the sort of moral relativism you put forward Turkeyshoot. Principle and rights based ethics would give a resounding NO. Thankfully, general consensus is catching up steadily so that women are more protected than in the past (but not enough of course).

I would certainly hope that our moral attitudes do evolve in the future, to a point at which it seems unquestionable that the subjection of animals to inhumane suffering is morally wrong. The rights that exist in the future, however, will not be any different to the rights that exist today, and have always existed.

General consensus is a flawed moral compass if the magnetic north is whatever the masses believe it to be. It certainly wasn't what I meant when I said that ethics has evolved.

Tezza


Ermm Turkey shoot, did you not understand the question?

27.06.2010 01:59

I asked you for proof that you are superior to other animals not to supply a few moral hypothetical questions. Here's one:
There is a burning building in one room is a man who has spent his life sexually abusing children, he is also dying of cancer.
In another room there is a young puppy.
You only have seconds to decide which one to save personally I would save the puppy but if you were to say for example that there was an old dog who was likely to attack me in one room and a small child in another room I would save the child.
I think that it would be the call of whoever was first on the scene to decide what to do in a stressful situation. Trying to save all of them would be best all round and practically it might be a case of dragging an unconcious human body out or just opening a door which would be easier in such an emergency?
Or you could argue that there is a man in one room and a woman in another, which one would you save? Or your Mum in one room and a stranger in another?
Eating meat as a survival strategy is VERY different to eating meat as a luxury product, it is certainly utterly unneccessary in our society. People have eaten one another when stranded at sea and in famines, it does not mean that this is what we should all do day to day!

Lynn Sawyer


@I ate duck for dinner

27.06.2010 08:29

"To the vegans, just shut the fuck up. Stop trying to micro-manage everyone's lives you bunch of Stalinist wankers. People aren't going to stop eating meat so stop trying to convert everyone, you're as bad as the weirdo religious types."

Of course people are going to convert people to their way of thinking, this is generally how ideas are passed on. Do you really have a problem with people pointing out the environmental/health/moral problems the current meat industry brings up? Does it offend you that much that you have to throw a massive hissy fit?

I mean, if someone's coming up to you and chucking your cheese burger on the floor every time you try to take a bite then fair enough, but don't you think this is a bit OTT for some people just pointing out some pretty standard facts? If it's someone's choice to eat meat/dairy or not then surely they should be presented with all the facts - from both side - in order to make a well informed decision? Or is that not what you want? Do you actually want to not have to think about your actions?

I mean, jesus, I buy clothes which have probably been made in shit conditions, and I don't like to think about it and obviously I don't think we should get rid of clothes, just the conditions but I don't get in a massive strop whenever someone points out that I'm basically supporting this stuff by buying it - because it's true.

You can't really argue that the meat industry as it is (rather than as the nice image of it that we all seem to have in our minds) is awful - for the animals, for the environment, for the workers and, not forgetting, for the consumers too - it's set up to make money and if that means polluting our environment, or make people work in an unsafe, poorly paid manner, or selling dodgy meat full of antibiotics which lead to resistant bacteria which in turn leads to people getting sick, or marketing it in a way that encourages overeating and unhealthy food, and particularly aiming this at the young and the poor, leading to obesity and other health problems - the meat (and dairy etc) companies don't give a shit about any of this. It's not just the fact that cute, cuddly animals are dying, it's the whole way the industry is run that is awful, and people need to know that.

When we're living in a nice utopia where food isn't produced purely to make profit and where information regarding the benefits *and* disadvantages of a meat/vegetarian/vegan/whatever diet is freely and equally available then I'll be happy to leave it up to each person to come to their own decision, but that's not the case, so stop whinging about a couple of people pointing out facts that you don't want to hear.

Ae


oh so defensive

27.06.2010 19:01

nobody is physically attacking anybody or preventing anybody from doing what they want here.

a couple of people have attempt to highlight some of the ethical issues around eating meat. immediately meat-eaters start jumping around complaining of being told what to do and get all defensive. reminds me of how car-drivers always get when pollution or road-building is discussed, how racists get when the facts of immigration are explained, how bankers get when anti-capitalist views are expressed, among others.

fact: lots of people around the world are hungry right now. if we used land more efficiency we could easily feed everybody, but that would mean feeding everybody a vegan diet not a meat-based one. farming cattle uses up tons of land compared to growing food for a vegan diet.

fact: millions of people all over the world eat a vegan diet and thrive (study india or china for example).

neither of these facts are an attack on you, the reader, and nobody needs to get bogged down in ridiculous arguments about the value of a cow versus the value of you. we don't have to choose between you or a cow. ceasing meat-eating would benefit all humans and all cows. everybody's a winner.

me


tezza

28.06.2010 18:19

Thanks for the comment Tezza. I sincerely apologise for misinterpreting/misquoting your previous statements, thanks for the correct.

I see your point regarding the masses consensus moral compasses not necessary being correct (eg. slavery).Your examples go back in time and show this quite effectively. But in 500 years from now, we will also be "back in time"...

As of today, most people think eating meat is fine. All people (nearly) think that eating plant life is fine. I doubt anyone thinks that eating plants is morally incorrect.

However, if we consider that scientists will probably manage to develop ways to manufacture food (to feed the 3rd-world). They may then get better and better at doing this to the point that their food tastes equally if not better than real food. It is almost beyond doubt that a group of people will begin to argue that eating real plants is unneccessarily - we can make food. They may also argue that it is cruel (scientists can already measure 'alarm' in plants in the face in damage - what will we know in days to come?). These same people will look back on us (2010) and say we were morally wrong. Afterall, we can probably start manufacturing food right now if we put own mind to it - yet we choose not to.

My point is that our moral compass is made through the majority and SEEMS right at the time. However, future generations may have a different consensus and consider what we do to today to be morally wrong.

Turkey shoot


Lynn Sawyer

28.06.2010 18:48

You asked me proof that I'm more important than a cow. I gave it to you.
2000+ cows are less important that 1 life.

I can't prove it beyond this, but actually killing humans and cows to prove it would be a bit extreme and unnecessary unless. So the next best thing is to use "hypothetical" questions as a tool. I don't see why thats invalid? Its quite simple, given the choice of A or B, which do you choose. It doesn't get much simpler than that. People will choose the most important. (Like your example of my mother or a stranger - I'd choose my mother because i percieve her more important to me than the stranger). Thats why people choose the cow rather than the human... because the human is considered more important.

I noticed you avoided answering the questions. So I assume that you would do as most other people would do: save the humans/self in all cases and killed the cows. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Regarding your man and your puppy - I think thats a bit unfair. You've chosen something very cute and fluffy against a monster. I was trying to round it into averages by just saying "a man". An AVERAGE, everyday man against an average everyday cow, without bringing external emotional issues to cloud the issue. Otherwise we are getting in a load of side issues into valuing a pedo etc.

>> Eating meat as a survival strategy is VERY different to eating meat as a luxury product, it is certainly utterly unneccessary in our society. People have eaten one another when stranded at sea and in famines, it does not mean that this is what we should all do day to day!

Well, i did say twice that I didn't see the point of proving a human was more important than a cow.... but you insisted. This is a different point entirely. Lots of things are unneccessary. Using the internet is unnecessary and uses electricity, and is a luxury. But we do it anyway.
Eating a sausage is unnecessary, but it tastes really nice. Does the the animal want to be eaten? Of course not. But is that a reason not to eat it? I'd say no.

Does a zebra want to get eaten by a lion? No. But it happens because of how nature has evolved. We could stop lions eating zebras (easy... segragate all their prey from them and give them something like cat biscuits). We could do it... its not even that hard. But we don't because it isn't naturally - there would be uproar.

So why can a lion eat meat but we can't? Why does a lion have a choice but we don't?
A lion could "choose" to eat something else if it wanted to.

Turkey shoot


@me

28.06.2010 18:49

>> nobody is physically attacking anybody or preventing anybody from doing what they want here.

No, but people are having a real good go at meat-eaters (calling them murders). So i would think being defensive and having a go back is fair game. Disagree?

Turkey shoot


Animal liberation

29.06.2010 15:08

All non-human animals are superior to moral agents who would cause them intentional harm. In turn, moral agents who don't cause intentional harm to non-human animals are superior to moral agents who do. Superior moral agents have an absolute right to control the behaviour of inferior moral agents, by force if necessary. Don't like it? Tough!

NP


@ Lynn Sawyer

29.06.2010 15:16

I don't think you would use the term “Roadkill” to describe human pedestrian fatalities in road traffic accidents so it is unfortunate that you use it to describe non-human fatalities as though you see them as lesser beings.

NP


NP re roadkill

29.06.2010 18:44

Well the roadkill I'm talking about is an abandoned body. I once removed a dead lamb from the road and placed his body before his clearly mourning mother, I would not regard it as appropriate for anyone to eat the meat of a corpse which is going to upset other creatures but I do regard it as more ethical for someone to eat the victim of an accident rather than murdering someone. An dead pheasant will not cause such upset, a dead child would as humans tend to greive over dead bodies and there may be some legal issues!! but yes humans could be indeed referred to as roadkill and in certain circumstances eaten in extremis.By the way I do not advocate eating roadkill myself YUCK but a lot of freegans do it I see no major objection and if anyone wants to eat me when I pop my clogs they are most welcome.
I will get back to the other bits and pieces when I actually have some time.

Lynn Sawyer


prize chopper

30.06.2010 01:40

@@All non-human animals are superior to moral agents who would cause them intentional harm. In turn, moral agents who don't cause intentional harm to non-human animals are superior to moral agents who do. Superior moral agents have an absolute right to control the behaviour of inferior moral agents, by force if necessary. Don't like it? Tough!

Absolute right!?
So what you are saying is that a duck is superior and has the absolute right to control my behaviour - by force if necessary?

Well, all i can say to that duck is "Good luck. You may think you have the right to control my behaviour, but I choose to ignore you. Don't like it? Tough!"

maximus


@ turkey shoot

30.06.2010 09:51

Hmm
So on the one hand you claim to be superior to other animals and on the other hand you claim to have no more awareness or capacity for empathy than a shark? That's interesting.

Nature is harsh, there are predators and there are herbivores, parisites and all sorts of things which cause suffering. It is not our remit as animal liberationists to remedy all suffering for this is impossible. Lions will still hunt antelopes and there is nothing we can do about it, nor should we. Now there are people who still live hunter gatherer lives have virtually no impact on the earth and control their numbers. To my mind they should be left be. The huge difference between us and them is that we as a society expect to have the same natural rights whilst turning the planet into a cesspit, breeding like maniacs and abusing every other creature.

In our natural state we are part of the world even if we do occassionally eat other animals, we are no less and certainly no more than any other being. Ancient religions and cultures have never regarded humans as something more than the other animals that came in with the Abrahamic religions Judeo/Christian/Islamic which dictated that humans ARE more important but with nothing to substantiate that belief. Of course whether we believe in any of these religions or not our entire society from the legal system to the NHS is based on what someone's idea of Christainity is and so this belief in human superiority persists even amongst atheists, passed down through the generations as fact. It is absolute bollocks and utterly unfounded, every day a scientist or naturalist proves little by little that other animals have emotions, capacity to feel pain, loneliness, discomfort. If we accept evolution as a fact we also have to accept that we are part of the web of life and not superior beings. If we accept otherwise we allow ourselves the absurdity of believing that one day an ape gave birth to another ape, mother ape was an inferior animal, baby ape was this really divine thing called a human! Eventually we will evolve into something else, after all we are a very young species, at which point to we cease to be really important, or do we evolve into something even more grandiose?

You say that you would eat these cows on this hypothetical island, ermm how exactly? Where are your knives and guns or do you intend like the real carnivore you claim to be to sink your teeth into them? They would kick your arse and rightly so. If you are talking about eating insects, dead humans or a can of spam washed up to survive then that is survival it is an entirely different case to mass abuse of billions of sentient creatures who are tortured and killed just because of a pathetic sense of entitlement.

We as a species need to hang our heads in shame and diminish or impact on the earth, we are not superior in anyway and the more of us there are and the more we pollute the less chance we will have of surviving as a species. I have no real problem with the extinction of our race but sadly we will bring down many other species as well, I just don't see the point in this human death cult. The earth will survive us but will take millenia to recover all for what "ohh look at us we're really great we can kill billions every year AND poison the sea AND torture one another AND kill plants we don't like the look of". Only humans think humans are superior, other species cower in terror of the killer ape.

If you want to eat meat, fine, but go to the Kalahari and live as one of the bushmen (if they'll have you) don't even pretend that you have any right whatsoever to imprison and torture millions of individuals in some sick charade of what many meat eaters call the natural order.
Farming other animals is not natural, it is abusive, it is unecessary and it is contraindicated for the recovery of the environment. The fishing of wild fish and fish farming is decimating the oceans, well done Sea Shepherd for releasing those blue fin Tuna, beautiful bit of DA.

As for protecting those close to us first well yes that is natural. I too may save my mother above a complete stranger but it would be the same with my dog, he is closer to me than most people, every day I and many others who are responsible for domestic animals feed them rather than sending the money to help starving children demostrating how many people who say that "humans are more important" don't live up to that expectation. If you actually believe that concept why are you diverting grain and soya from hungry mouths through other animals (wasting 90% of the food value) just to feed your meat fetish? The "human beings come first" philosophy goes out of the window it would seem when it comes to stufing your face with beef burgers.

Going back to the "who would you save" scenario, OK so my mother and my dog are in one room and this man who I do not even like is in another. This man is a genius though and is the only person who knows how to divert a meteorite about to hit the earth, I would maybe save him. Again when you argue human beings come first you are saying that scum like Mugabe, Pol Pot and their thugs etc etc (these people are not exactly rare examples) are worthy of more consideration and rights than any non human animal no matter how innocent or magnificent. I will have to differ, all non human animals unable to return to wild living should not breed at all but be cared for as best we are able until they become extinct, wild creatures (including wild humans) should be left be to sort out their own lives although we should help where our paths cross for example a beached whale, a bird with a broken wing and we need to wake up from our delusions of granduer, diminish our territory and our population, stop killing everything, ensure that every child is fed and cared for and sort ourselves out for the sake of all life on earth.

Lynn Sawyer


@ Lynn Sawyer 2

02.07.2010 16:26

The problem I have with the term "Roadkill" is that it appears to legitimize intentionally or recklessly killing non-human animals with motor vehicles in the same way that mice, flies, badgers, pigeons, foxes, wasps, rats, gray squirrels etc. are reduced to apparent moral worthlessness by being labeled "Pests" and "Vermin". Better that animal liberationists avoid using this sort of derogatory speciesist language.

NP


@ maximus

03.07.2010 00:36

No. What I'm saying is that ducks have greater moral worth than humans who would harm them and that animal liberationists have greater moral authority than animal abusers just as children have greater moral worth than adults who would rape them and adults who understand that abusing children is wrong have greater moral authority than child molesters.

NP


@NP

03.07.2010 01:12

I think you hav neglected to conside the concept of the shotgun.
A duck may have a high moral standing than me, but I can still eat it, by force if necessary

maximus


@ maximus

03.07.2010 09:19

Yes but I could hatch a plan to eat you, experiment on you, skin you alive to make lampshades if I wanted to. Does that make me "superior" if I enact such a sick, twisted plan? I think that one of the main reasons(following habit, culture, not knowing any better) people eat meat and wear fur is all about power, fear and feelings of inadequacy, at least some individuals are so "lowly" their lives can be ended in agony and terror for a mere whim by the meat eater, fur wearer. The potent symbol of meat goes way beyond a mere pragmatic struggle for survival and as I have said before it would be tragic in an emergency for anyone to starve to death rather than eat a can of spam which washes up on the shore of a desert island, but to kill and maim and violate other individuals who we all now know are as capable of suffering as we are, that is a gross atrocity which would go way beyond the realms of the most graphic horror film if humans were the victims. Hostel, Saw etc are tame compared to what non humans face in their billions. What sick, perverse culture do we live in that it is routine to take a pregnant cow to a slaughterhouse and rip the live fetus out of her womb, to sell bit of victims who have had their skin ripped from their fully concious bodies?
Ok to do this to animals? Well we are all animals so it is OK to do this to humans too and no fur wearer should complain or whine when someone hacks their hands and feet off, rips their skin off and throws them into a pile of agonised writhing bodies to die an excruciating death. After all the murderer has made his choice and demostrated his "superiority" and that's what counts eh?

Lynn Sawyer


lynn

04.07.2010 10:42

>> Ok to do this to animals? Well we are all animals so it is OK to do this to humans too
No it isn't. We have laws that prohibit this, so even if you did want to do it, you are not allowed to.
I think the majority of meat eaters wouldn't feel its ok to do the same to humans.

>> no fur wearer should complain or whine when someone hacks their hands and feet off, rips their skin off and throws them into a pile of agonised writhing bodies to die an excruciating death.
I would and i'd fight for my survival because they are MY feet and hands.

>> After all the murderer has made his choice and demostrated his "superiority" and that's what counts eh?
Not really. I wouldn't kill for fun or to prove a point. Its more to do with making food that I enjoy eating.


Maximus


Since when has the law been the be all and end all of morality?

04.07.2010 18:39

Previous laws have enabled slavery, torture, the Holocaust...present laws in other regimes allow the stoning of rape victims so is this OK.
Back to someone being ripped apart by another individual for trivial nonsense such as taste and choice. A third party is being ethical by using whatever force is necessary to protect the victim whether that victim be an old lady being mugged or a dog being torched. To be honest I care not for the welfare of the perpetrator of an unprovoked attack in the process of protecting those who are in need of protection.It would hardly be a huge loss if a gang torturing a teenager were all killed if it was the only way to save the victim. It would have been illegal to save a child who was starving and stole some bread from the gallows but it would have been heroic and moral

Lynn Sawyer